Yukari was Maribel: An analysis using official sources

[Furienify]

Tiamat (and others), Sabino finished translating this yesterday and I proofread it and put it on the wiki.

Cage in Lunatic Runagate, Chapter 5: The Infinitely Low Earth

It's between Yukari and Ran prior to the second Invasion of the Moon (SSiB). There are a lot of quotes that really stand out to me, making me think you'd love to sink your teeth into this:

Spoiler:

"Gensokyo is full of members that do as they like, but such freedom is not something that is promised. For everybody to live their lives with the least bit of freedom there needs to be a rule of a certain extent. That rule will create a certain extent of hindrance to freedom, but that hindrance is necessary for freedom."

Spoiler:

"Those vampires had the spirit that I forgotten of. The feel that the humans outside had begun to forget about, and the feeling that shikigami whose thoughts centered around efficiency despised of. The fun that would come from travelling in a poorly-built rocket and feeling miserable. Something that came from an easy and short method had no meaning to it.

It was the spirit of enjoying hard work."

Spoiler:

"The moon that Ran and I got to was unthinkably silent from the Gensokyo that was constantly noisy from the bickering between humans and youkai.
Humans sought for the city to be a cheerful place and before they knew Earth was ridded of silence. If even the Gensokyo that was to be a rural area was noisy, the outside world was even more so.

Yet the capital of the moon was even more so technologically advanced. If so, the capital that exists at the other side of the moon should be very noisy. If they are to be experiencing a peaceful prosperity, that would only be a sign of decay. Or perhaps it could mean an incomparably advanced civilization.

Whether it was decay or pure heaven, I hated it. I needed the noise of the city.

With that in mind, thinking that the vampires were somewhere on this quiet moon causing a racket made me feel nostalgia."

(yeah still some proofreading to do, it's a loooooong read)

[Anon]

CiLR is finally getting finished? Oh boy. I've been waiting on this. This, CoLA, and the Three Fairies manga and then that should wrap it up for the official materials out there.

[Ubiquitial]

In MAG-net's documentary about touhou, part 2, at 4:07, note that in ZUN's design ideas sketchbook, The portrait of Maribel is RIGHT UNDER Yukari. Coincidence?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sylvLk-hLPA

[Gpop]

In MAG-net's documentary about touhou, part 2, at 4:07, note that in ZUN's design ideas sketchbook, The portrait of Maribel is RIGHT UNDER Yukari. Coincidence?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sylvLk-hLPA

Um...that's Toyohime actually :V

[Ubiquitial]

Um...that's Toyohime actually :V

Really? Okay, I was mistaken then.

Fail. I thought something about that bag was off.

[Furienify]

Now that you bring it up...

ZUNArt Iku and Tenshi.

Cannot unsee. <3

[Kittyrose405]

Wow, reading this helped me learn alot about Gensokyo, and made me even more interested in Touhou!
Thank you for this, thank you so much!

[mouthsore]

Well, it seems Yukari knows her science far too well, so she has to spin things around for Gensokyo people. And even if she did explain it too straightforwardly, she might not be understood at all.

Doesn't thie CiLR entry also imply that Yukari was actually the one who got caught back then?

[Tiamat]

Well, I was hoping there'd be more Yukari Maribel connections or clues in this chapter, and I guess I got as much as I could hope for.  Like most things regarding Yukari, CiLR is sadly kinda vague.  If Yukari is/was Maribel, it's obviously something that ZUN wants to keep from being TOO obvious (although I still don't think he can get much more obvious than he has with the endings to Magical Astronomy and Changeability of Strange Dream).  That said, one thing that's somewhat clear is that Yukari used to know what it was like to enjoy hard work ("Those vampires had the spirit that I forgotten.")

Of course, that had me immediately dashing off to see where Maribel might have indicated she knew the spirit of enjoying hard work.  I didn't really have to look too far, though.  Hard work was in fact one of the themes of Magical Astronomy too (which, probably-not-coincidentally, was also about getting to the moon).  While the story starts off saying that the universe makes one forget the hardships of life, it also states later that "one should work to their own satisfaction", indicating that instead of having to work to live, one should be able to enjoy work for what it is.  ZUN in the ending comments remarks about how he hopes for a day when people who work hard with no holidays could go to the moon ("I wonder if it will come an age when the dreamers on Earth who work frantically and with no holidays can happily go to the moon."), and Maribel herself was prepared to do a lot of hard work in order to get to the moon (She and Renko considered getting part time jobs as well as researching everything they could in order to get to it.  The vampires themselves ended up doing a LOT of research and construction work in order to get to the moon)

For a tangent:  I can't confirm this, obviously, but I think ZUN purposefully inserted another parallel here.  Maribel and Renko were ready to do a lot of hard work to get to the moon (research and getting jobs) but in the end took the "easy way" (the reflection on the lake).  Meanwhile, in SSIB, Yukari (who's forgotten what it's like to enjoy hard work by now) proposes the easy way to the vampires (the reflection on the lake.  Ran specifically tells Remilia this will be the method they use) but the Vampires reject it in favor of their own hard work method.

Actually, I find the whole thing kind of depressing.  Gensokyo was supposed to be Maribel's paradise, but  Yukari now spends her days bored for the most part (outright stated near the beginning of this CiLR chapter) and sleeping all the time.  Meanwhile Remilia (who apparently is another foil for Yukari now, if my previous paragraph is correct.  More specifically, "the vampires") is enjoying Gensokyo to the fullest.

Ah well, it doesn't have to be that bad.  In the end of SSiB, Yukari clearly won and was very happy about it.

(on the foil note, I did say earlier that Remilia and Flandre together are kinda what happens when you take Yukari's scheming side and Yukari's wierdo side and put them in the bodies of 10 year olds.  Even this CiLR chapter refers to them as "the vampires" instead of just "Remilia", which is interesting considering that Flandre doesn't have a role in SSiB at all.)

(on a more off-toppic sidenote, regarding it being referred to as "the vampires" instead of just "Remilia", it's true that Flandre has no role in SSiB at all.  Closest thing we get was her chasing around Reisen and Tewi in Inaba during the party.  Well, I imagine ZUN used "the vampires" because together, Flandre and Remilia make a better foil for Yukari than Remilia alone.  But if one really wants to, there are some epileptic trees you can make. Flandre's dialogues in EoSD and her Bohemian Archive interview indicate the girl is a lot more knowledgeable about things than she seems.  It makes me wonder if she's been subtly manipulating things on her own in some way, too, since despite how she's never left the basement, she appears to have some degree of omnipotent view ability, as she was able to see the heroines invade the mansion and also see the heart of objects bo break even when they're all the way in orbit like that meteor)



CiLR also implies that Yukari came from the city, and of course states she is nostalgic about the noise (specifically about the racket the vampires must be causing). 53 Minutes implies that Maribel herself lived in Kyoto (and Renko was from Tokyo), and the intro to Magical Astronomy starts with a very noisy scene as people find out about the moon tour (IE, the racket caused by the news of the moon tour).


As for the "freedom" part and the whole shuttling of people into designated roles as well as the collection of residential tax... well, I don't know how true it is for that stuff to be necessary for Gensokyo's existance, but it definately continues along with the whole "god complex control freak" thing Yukari seems to have when it comes to Gensokyo.

Well, it seems Yukari knows her science far too well, so she has to spin things around for Gensokyo people. And even if she did explain it too straightforwardly, she might not be understood at all.

Maribel's major was relative psychology, but she was clearly a science lover, too (shown by several of her conversations in her stories and her referencing of Steven Hawking in her Perfect Memento memo).  In this explanation that Yukari gives, I find it nice that both of those aspects (relative psychology and science) can be seen.


Thanks to the Touhou Wikia translators.  You guys are awesome.

Doesn't thie CiLR entry also imply that Yukari was actually the one who got caught back then?

I think what Yukari is telling Ran is that she's about to be caught soon, not that she was caught in the past.  In the past, there wasn't anything to actually catch since she staged a full frontal assault with an army of youkai instead of all this sneaking around (even Ran confirms this.  Or... rather, Ran tells Yukari that's what the stories say, so it's probably true).  After that, Eirin set up this trap to catch Yukari should she try again, and Yukari knew it (but is walking into the trap anyways)

(and of course, Yukari does get caught by Toyohime shortly after this takes place.  And of course, it gets revealed in the end that she got caught on purpose to be a decoy for Yuyuko)

[mouthsore]

?The youkai who had no way to return had to surrender. Since she was up against those that she could not win against.?

Yes Yukari, you suck at psychological projection, no matter how you go "supposing a story about a youkai". 

You don't have to be a genius to figure out psychological projection. I'd say, we already know what it's like before we even knew what name we were supposed to give it. Shakespeare himself, before the advent of psychology, had a grasp of human mental conditions.

[shadowbringer]

Actually, I find the whole thing kind of depressing.  Gensokyo was supposed to be Maribel's paradise

that may be a stretch, and would require that Maribel really became Yukari (while there's still the red herring possibility, be it intentional or not)

Meanwhile Remilia (who apparently is another foil for Yukari now, if my previous paragraph is correct.  More specifically, "the vampires") is enjoying Gensokyo to the fullest.

Patchy has said that Remilia was aware that she was being used, but that would be of Remilia's interest anyway. Also, Reimu is apparently bored when there's no incidents, and Yukari took advantage of one ( the "unrest on the moon" ) to make an incident, and also participate.. in a way that would be fitting for her ( like a "behind the scenes" role, like in IaMP ). After all, it was Yukari's choice and plan to send Reimu and the others towards Yorihime. (meanwhile, you have a Yuyuko that's wise enough to know how to have fun with what she has. I see in them a relationship as both the people that they may be representing were writers, that seem to be a closer friendship than Yukari would have with Maribel)

Ah well, it doesn't have to be that bad.  In the end of SSiB, Yukari clearly won and was very happy about it.

after failing once (by being outsmarted by Eirin the first time), it looks like Yukari finally got what she was after (a symbolic "housing tax", even though it was something that even Yukari didn't expect at first). Perhaps Eirin's unrest is not related with Yukari's later success, but with the Chang'e herself, as Eirin has mentioned that there would be a time when someone would try to get their hands on her (Eirin) in order to increase their military might.


Anyways, Yukari may have known what's to enjoy hard work. She may have been a human, or a weak youkai who got stronger over time (cue Alice having her dolls do house chores for her), but still, I'm skeptical about jumping to the conclusion that Yukari was Maribel, for reasons mentioned before. Perhaps Maribel's personality and trait similarities are meant to be a clan's features, or not (and like I said, Maribel may even be reliving -- without herself knowing it -- part of Yukari's previous experiences). There's no way for us to know for sure.

Since you've brought Yukari's nostalgia for causing a stir on the moon, I think that it's quite conflicting that Yukari dislikes the Lunar Capital's quietness. So, Yukari would find the Lunar Capital uninteresting, and only be after what she's came to get from it, contrary to Maribel's desire to get to the Moon, without even knowing that there was a Lunar Capital on it. (the fact that people in her time can go to the moon makes me wonder about what was the lunarians' reactions towards the 'alien' humans.. considering the "impurity factor" -- which is understandable, for the sake of the lunarians' survival)

Lastly, I don't get all this "god complex" notion you speak of.. Yukari isn't unrivaled when it comes to being smart, and even with the power she's supposed to have, and the ability to calculate things better than Ran, there's still people who she runs away from. At least she should know to avoid earning their hatred for her own good, what about actually becoming a god, considering that there's really no indication pointing to that direction? Wouldn't Eirin, Yuyuko or the dragons have tried that already (if we're talking about unlikely behaviors)? Or even Yuka, if she's more like an embodiment of nature, as described in PMiSS?

[Tiamat]

Since you've brought Yukari's nostalgia for causing a stir on the moon, I think that it's quite conflicting that Yukari dislikes the Lunar Capital's quietness. So, Yukari would find the Lunar Capital uninteresting, and only be after what she's came to get from it, contrary to Maribel's desire to get to the Moon, without even knowing that there was a Lunar Capital on it. (the fact that people in her time can go to the moon makes me wonder about what was the lunarians' reactions towards the 'alien' humans.. considering the "impurity factor" -- which is understandable, for the sake of the lunarians' survival)

You're misreading the passage.  No where is it stated that the moon capital is quiet.  Yukari states that "the moon she arrived at" was quiet, not the moon capital, and then she goes on to SPECULATE that maybe the moon capital itself is quiet, now, too.  She then goes on to think in hypotheticals.  IE, if the moon capital really is as quiet as the rest of the moon, is that decay or heaven?  Either way, she hated it.

Also, Maribel did know about the capital on the moon.  Her ability to see boundaries allowed her to see the capital as well, and its mentioned several times in Magical Astronomy.  Here's one passage that mentions it (although IIRC it's mentioned in several other places by Maribel as well)

""If we want to see the moon capital, maybe we should learn more about it.
About the ancient moon that has been forgotten for a long time.
About the dazzling moon capital of legend.
About the moon that symbolizes insanity.
Yes, knowledge makes the gap in the border clear.""

It's stated in Magical Astronomy that Maribel wanted to go to the moon because she wanted to see what the capital was really like (seeing it from such a far away distance just wasn't the same).  Thus there is no conflict.  Both Yukari and Maribel didn't (still don't) know what the moon capital is exactly like, and can only speculate.

...honestly, could you at least go read Maribel's official stories before arguing about whether or not Yukari is/was/dreamed/whatever Maribel?



Tangent regarding lunarians' reactions to moon tours:  At the very least, we also already know what the lunarians' reactions towards the alien humans were the first time Neil Armstrong went to the moon.  They weren't very happy and a war erupted (this was what made them ask for Reisen to come home and to take back Eirin and Kaguya, which is what caused Eirin to create the Imperishable Night incident to protect Kaguya from the Lunarians)

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Kaguya

I forget where it's stated, but IIRC, the Lunarians won and expelled the humans (and the flag that Neil planted on the moon.  The flag would eventually fall into Gensokyo and Kaguya would take it and display it during her moon exhibition, as the flag is mentioned in Kaguya's Bohemian Archive page)

Like Gensokyo, the Lunarian capital is protected by a boundary.  Normal humans can't see or get to it through normal means, and it only looks like a mere ruin  (in retrospect, this might be similar to how the Hakurei Shrine in the real world is allegedly just a desolate place, too).  This is mentioned in both SSiB and CiLR, and mplied in Magical Astronomy.  IIRC, the lunarians still had to give the earthlings the boot, though, because the earthlings planted a flag claiming the moon as their own/

(considering that the general earth population apparently never heard of this war, it seems a safe assumption that the American government kept it hush-hush.  Eirin is also implied to have been the one that actually took down Apollo 13 because it's one of her spell cards, which if true, would be another case of the American government lying to the populace to keep the existence of aliens a secret.  Well, ZUN does like to implement popular stories and concepts into Touhou, so it's not surprising he'd slip in a little American conspiracy to keep aliens a secret bit into it)

Anyways, Yukari may have known what's to enjoy hard work. She may have been a human, or a weak youkai who got stronger over time (cue Alice having her dolls do house chores for her), but still, I'm skeptical about jumping to the conclusion that Yukari was Maribel, for reasons mentioned before.

Without direct "word of god" (IE, word from ZUN in this case), there are always multiple possibilities to everything.  It can't really be helped, especially since ZUN's the type of person who prefers the reader figure out things for themselves (considering that he uses "unreliable narrators" for so many things.  He even uses them for things like the Perfect Cherry Blossom prologue, sometimes, as he's stated in an e-mail).  It would be unfitting for a CiLR chapter to be the place where it's spelled out, anyways, since CiLR isn't supposed to focus on Yukari (or at least, those aspects of Yukari.

Still, as I've stated before, I've gotten about as much as I could hope for.  Possibly more, even, since it at least looks like this chapter was meant to parallel Magical Astronomy in several ways.

By the way, Alice is a really bad example to use of a "Youkai who has the spirit of enjoying hard work because she's a weak youkai".  Alice was probably a human once (according to Perfect Memento.  At least one other game/profile stated that she hasn't been a youkai for very long, too) and that would explain why she had that spirit.

Lastly, I don't get all this "god complex" notion you speak of.. Yukari isn't unrivaled when it comes to being smart, and even with the power she's supposed to have, and the ability to calculate things better than Ran, there's still people who she runs away from. At least she should know to avoid earning their hatred for her own good, what about actually becoming a god, considering that there's really no indication pointing to that direction? Wouldn't Eirin, Yuyuko or the dragons have tried that already (if we're talking about unlikely behaviors)? Or even Yuka, if she's more like an embodiment of nature, as described in PMiSS?

Er... "God Complex" is a psychological disorder, not a level of power.  When you say someone has a "god complex", you're saying they're mentally unhinged and they THINK they're far superior to everyone else, whether they are or not (Yukari is described as a wierdo often, after all, and there's a reason most people dislike her)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_complex

The person that Yukari runs away from is Shiki (the final scene in Flower Blooming Vagrant occurs in Muenzeku, where you fight Shiki in Phantasmagoria, and it ends with Reimu preparing to fight someone. After that, the final statement of the story states it's to-be-continued in the Extra Stage of Phantasmagoria.  Phantasmagoria's Extra Stage ends with Shiki fighting Reimu at Meunzoku).  Perfect Memento gives a very valid reason for why long-lived youkai avoid yamas when they can.  It's because they don't like being judged.  Someone who has a god complex would despise being judged as well (after all, a god complex person thinks they're always right, and a judgement often includes telling them they're wrong), so I don't see where the conflict is here (assuming you had the definition of "god complex" correct in the first place, but I'm under the impression you aren't aware of the actual meaning of the term)

Why would Eirin, Yuyuko, or the Dragons try to become gods?  Eirin is perfectly happy dumbing down her power out of respect for the princess.  It'd be out of character for that type of personality to want to become a god.  Yuyuko hates the idea of becoming super powerful so much that she committed suicide when she saw it was happening, so if anything, she wants to stay as far away from becoming a god as possible (and she's stated she doesn't want to ascend to heaven, either).  And the dragons don't need to become gods because they already are gods (and are worshipped by youkai and human alike.  Remember that in the touhou world, faith is all you really need to be a god, and the dragons have THAT spilling out the wazoo all over the place).  And Yuka's just content to hang around her flower field these days and sleep or "tease" people.  Out of all the characters you mentioned, none of them have that ambitious (manipulative type, in Yukari's case) personality streak that Yukari has which would make them the type of personality to want to try to achieve godhood (well, I can't vouch for what the dragons' (or Dragon) personality is like, but again, they're already gods anyways)

[Anon]

(well, I can't vouch for what the dragons' (or Dragon) personality is like, but again, they're already gods anyways)

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Dragon
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia:_Chapter_18

All you have to know is the dragon god is the highest authority in Gensokyo and is the very reason for Gensokyo's continued existence. He is beyond all youkai and gods by a few magnitudes and can go as he pleases through any of the borders around Gensokyo. He to the youkai sages at the creation of the Hakurei Border told them, "You will pledge eternal peace in these lands." They agreed to it.

[shadowbringer]

>> You're misreading the passage.  No where is it stated that the moon capital is quiet.

since Yukari has said that the lack of noise could be a sign of decay or an "incomparably advanced civilization", decay wouldn't apply to the lunarians (only to the moon's facade). This could probably be mainly meant to further the notion of the lunarians being incomparably more advanced than humans.

Yet the capital of the moon was even more technologically advanced. If so, the capital that exists at the other side of the moon should be very noisy. If they are to be experiencing a peaceful prosperity, that would only be a sign of decay. Or perhaps it could mean an incomparably advanced civilization.
Whether it was decay or pure heaven, I hated it. I needed the noise of the city.

>> Also, Maribel did know about the capital on the moon.  Her ability to see boundaries allowed her to see the capital as well, and its mentioned several times in Magical Astronomy.  Here's one passage that mentions it (although IIRC it's mentioned in several other places by Maribel as well)

>> ""If we want to see the moon capital, maybe we should learn more about it.
About the ancient moon that has been forgotten for a long time.
About the dazzling moon capital of legend.
About the moon that symbolizes insanity.
Yes, knowledge makes the gap in the border clear.""

meanwhile, CiLR's 5th chapter has Yukari saying that she needed to go to the Lunar Capital in order to have more information about it..

?...That youkai opened a path to the moon on the fifteenth night as the paths of the sky showed, and decided to sneak in. ...Although this is a make-believe story.?

?Right.?

?There was little information about the Lunar Capital and one couldn?t start without going there first. The long awaited fifteenth night had come and that youkai jumped into the moon on the lake surface... What do you think she saw there??

sure, this could be what Maribel would've encountered when going to the moon. However..

With that in mind, thinking that the vampires were somewhere on this quiet moon causing a racket made me feel nostalgia.

?Yukari-sama, isn?t it about time that the vampire?s rocket got to the moon??

?I?m guessing that the moon is in quite the racket, then. Perhaps they?re learning their lesson by now??

(if Yukari was Maribel, why would she need to have to go to the moon two times prior to SSiB? Couldn't she have succeeded by the second time, "over 1000 years" ago?)

>> It's stated in Magical Astronomy that Maribel wanted to go to the moon because she wanted to see what the capital was really like (seeing it from such a far away distance just wasn't the same).  Thus there is no conflict.  Both Yukari and Maribel didn't (still don't) know what the moon capital is exactly like, and can only speculate.

after reading Magical Astronomy's story (forgive my bad memory.. it enjoys sealing away bits of information that seem uninteresting at the time. For example, if Maribel trying to travel to the moon can be interpreted as an ambiguity -- between her becoming Yukari later, and her reliving Yukari's experiences without knowing it -- I don't bother to try testing my luck by guessing which is the correct answer), Maribel got interested in the Lunar Capital, while Yukari has planned to use Yuyuko to reach the Lunar Capital (and to use herself as a second decoy. Even the deceased familiar could serve towards that purpose, too, instead of actually doing the spying)

>> ...honestly, could you at least go read Maribel's official stories before arguing about whether or not Yukari is/was/dreamed/whatever Maribel?

I thought that there was enough information elsewhere to make such a connection (Maribel being Yukari) so distant, that it wouldn't even be worth trying to work with (and, like I've sort of said before, who knows if ZUN wanted to reference Lafcadio Hearn/Koizumi Yakumo and, potentially, Saigyō Hōshi, while having Maribel Hearn be a minor "Yakumo" clan member?)

>> Without direct "word of god" (IE, word from ZUN in this case), there are always multiple possibilities to everything.  It can't really be helped, especially since ZUN's the type of person who prefers the reader figure out things for themselves (considering that he uses "unreliable narrators" for so many things.  He even uses them for things like the Perfect Cherry Blossom prologue, sometimes, as he's stated in an e-mail).

I'd like more information about this "e-mail" (that would both confirm what you say about ZUN wanting people to "figure things by themselves", if the email was in japanese and there are people who can translate it, and serve as a source for information about whatever else was in the e-mail message), if you don't mind. Still, what about figuring out the wrong things? (the Red Herring possibilities? Even the games have them, both in their gameplay and dialogues)

btw I find it difficult for Eirin to have attacked the Apollo 13 by herself, because she was already on Earth by that time

(from http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Gensokyo )
672-707 A.D. - Taketori Monogatari, beginning of Imperishable Night backstory

    Kaguya and Eirin flee from the moon and establish Eientei

she could be representing Apollo 13's failure, as well as representing the Hourai Elixir without having actually consumed it

>> By the way, Alice is a really bad example to use of a "Youkai who has the spirit of enjoying hard work because she's a weak youkai".

I actually had Suika's competition habits in mind when I wrote that, and thought that common youkai would be able to enjoy their journey towards self-improvement. Anyways, at least Suika does enjoy hard work.. (while Yukari and Ran like to choose optimal paths)

Oni are generally jolly and love to drink, feast, and compete with humans in any kind of contest, from simple melee to drinking games. When they find a human that they like, they tempt that human into challenging them in any way the human desires. Should the human lose, they are abducted.

The oni find these games to be great fun, but humans don't appreciate the nature of that fun. Put simply, humans cannot compare to an oni's level of ability. Humans could enjoy themselves as much as the oni if they tried to reach the power level of their opponents, but they don't. Worse still, humans attempt to destroy the oni with underhanded tactics.

Anyways, I mentioned Alice because since she can manipulate dolls, she no longer has to do house chores herself. Like how Ran usually does Yukari's jobs when the latter's asleep.

>> Er... "God Complex" is a psychological disorder, not a level of power.  When you say someone has a "god complex", you're saying they're mentally unhinged and they THINK they're far superior to everyone else, whether they are or not (Yukari is described as a wierdo often, after all, and there's a reason most people dislike her)

>> A god complex is a non-clinical term generally used to describe an individual who consistently believes they can accomplish more than is humanly possible or that their opinion is automatically above those they may disagree with.[1]  The individual may believe he or she is above the rules of society and should be given special consideration or privileges. The term "god complex" does not appear in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).[2]

first, thank you, as I didn't knew about that definition of such a disorder/complex. Second, Yukari realizing her own inabilities and limitations and actually working around them (and turning everyone else against Suika, in IaMP) means that she must properly evaluate herself, and other people. "If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles.". Third, Yukari's been described as being extravagant and having a mind not fathomable by humans, so her habits of teleporting a lot and even her movements in the fighting games were described as being irritating to her opponents (in game, at least), even if she loses, plus, her actions do bother people (making Reimu believe that there were usable hot springs in order to have her go underground in SA, or just taking her food randomly). She might just not fit well in an human society.

>>  Perfect Memento gives a very valid reason for why long-lived youkai avoid yamas when they can.  It's because they don't like being judged.

after re-reading Sikieiki's PMiSS entry, it seems that I've forgotten the "..and particularly long-lived youkai have been helped by her at least once. " part. So it seems that she doesn't exterminate youkai on sight. That may be a possibility, that Yukari could win against Sikieiki, but has no reason for doing so (and that would actually be harmful to those who need her help).

>> Someone who has a god complex would despise being judged as well (after all, a god complex person thinks they're always right, and a judgement often includes telling them they're wrong)

this may be the case, for someone with such a complex, but I haven't seen Yukari as one of these people. Just when I think about how Yukari pisses people off (in reversible ways), she has a reason for doing so, which would be agreed with if people understood her.. (just thought that, for example, Yukari's success in SSiB means that she'll help the Eientei crew stay hidden from humans and lunarians, as a favor exchange. Just a theory, though.)

>> Out of all the characters you mentioned, none of them have that ambitious (manipulative type, in Yukari's case) personality streak that Yukari has which would make them the type of personality to want to try to achieve godhood

Yuka wanted to obtain "ultimate magic", it seems, dunno exactly *why*.. (was it MS, or Kioh Gyoku? I've forgotten already..)
Yuyuko, as you said, doesn't enjoy misusing her powers (and that's why she was made -- once more, I've forgotten where I've read this.. can do the research later, though -- the princess of Hakugyokurou ), and can understand Yukari better than most characters (she wouldn't be the type to help an oppressor, I think).
Eirin could be sought by the lunarians to *further* strengthen their military might.. (plus, it was Eirin's messing around with the moon's rotation that kept Yukari from escaping from the moon the "first time") .. that alone says a lot.

Anyways, if Yukari tries to become a goddess, there's enough people to stop her. (more if you count Shinki, if she feels like it -- a goddess that doesn't require faith, and was able to create Makai, which means that she's older than Makai itself and that there's a possibility for her to create other worlds as well)

[mouthsore]

Yukari wouldn't have much opposition to become a goddess if it weren't for the Moriya Shrine. Every other opponent lives outside Gensokyo (but are connected to it). Yukari is capable of massaging Reimu subtly into helping her achieve that.

Dragons? They're absentees/lazy. I think it's seen in Chinese literature how Celestials are lazy/negligent politicians or something.

[Tiamat]

>> ""If we want to see the moon capital, maybe we should learn more about it.
About the ancient moon that has been forgotten for a long time.
About the dazzling moon capital of legend.
About the moon that symbolizes insanity.
Yes, knowledge makes the gap in the border clear.""

meanwhile, CiLR's 5th chapter has Yukari saying that she needed to go to the Lunar Capital in order to have more information about it..

Yea, it looks like even today Yukari is still trying to learn more about the Moon Capital.  If Yukari's story to Ran really was about what happened when Maribel went to the moon (which I'm starting to suspect it is, but of course there's no proof), then Maribel probably didn't get to find out much about the capital either (since she had to stop when she saw her powers weren't strong enough to break down the barrier in time)

sure, this could be what Maribel would've encountered when going to the moon. However..

(if Yukari was Maribel, why would she need to have to go to the moon two times prior to SSiB? Couldn't she have succeeded by the second time, "over 1000 years" ago?)

Yukari's trip to the moon 1,000 years ago ended in failure.  She invaded the moon with an army of youkai, but they got their butts kicked VERY thoroughly.  Thus it's quite doubtful Yukari was able to infiltrate the capital and learn much about it back then, either.

Personally, I think Yukari  actually staged the first invasion in order to purposefully have the youkai get whooped, as part of her Xanatos Gambit towards making Gensokyo become a good dream instead of a bad dream.  After the moon invasion, the youkai stopped trying to expand beyond their territory, which meant that Yukari no longer had to worry about them leaving Gensokyo and going beserk in the outside world (this was before the Great Barrier was strengthened by Yukari, so the youkai could come and go as they wish, even after the priests sealed Gensokyo.  PCB's prologue, untrustworthy as it is, does state the barrier wasn't strong enough to contain the Youkai, after all)

If one reads through the historical events of Yukari's Perfect Memento section and assumes Yukari is the one who made the contract with the vampires as well as drafted the spell card rules (both rather likely, given that Yukari wrote a book on vampire pacts), then one basically gets the impression that throughout history Yukari LIED to the youkai that she's supposed to be the sage of in order to get them to behave.

(on a side note, that contract with the vampires was actually mentioned briefly in this chapter of CiLR.  It's nice to know it wasn't just tossed into Perfect Memento for flavor, considering how hugely important it seems to be)

after reading Magical Astronomy's story (forgive my bad memory.. it enjoys sealing away bits of information that seem uninteresting at the time. For example, if Maribel trying to travel to the moon can be interpreted as an ambiguity -- between her becoming Yukari later, and her reliving Yukari's experiences without knowing it -- I don't bother to try testing my luck by guessing which is the correct answer), Maribel got interested in the Lunar Capital, while Yukari has planned to use Yuyuko to reach the Lunar Capital (and to use herself as a second decoy. Even the deceased familiar could serve towards that purpose, too, instead of actually doing the spying)

On one hand, Yukari's already stated her purpose for her invasion and thus presumably her purpose for Yuyuko (residence tax), but on the other hand, CiLR is proof that ZUN doesn't always tell you EVERY purpose a character is shooting for (for one thing, Yukari states in CiLR that she's doing this for Residence Tax, but SSiB also shows that she's doing it for revenge.  So she very well could have a third purpose that ZUN isn't directly stating.  In this case, getting more information from Yuyuko about the moon.  I wouldn't be surprised if she and Yuyuko had a lengthy discussion about it, although it remains to be seen if Yukari could get any worthwhile info considering Yuyuko's cloud cuckolanderism)

One other trait about ZUN is that he often doesn't show you every scene when he shows you a story.  For example, SSiB ends with Yukari at Remilia's party, but what ZUN didn't reveal to you there was that Yukari apparently invited Eirin to it (which is what the final chapter of CiLR is about.  ....I think.  I was using google translate to translate a synopsis of it).  So there could very well be a "never shown" seen of Yukari talking with Yuyuko about the moon capital, too.  ...although again, Yuyuko "can't even remember what she had for breakfast", so...  (that's probably an exageration, but still...)helped, especially since ZUN's the type of person who prefers the reader figure out things for themselves (considering that he uses "unreliable narrators" for so many things.  He even uses them for things like the Perfect Cherry Blossom prologue, sometimes, as he's stated in an e-mail).

I'd like more information about this "e-mail" (that would both confirm what you say about ZUN wanting people to "figure things by themselves", if the email was in japanese and there are people who can translate it, and serve as a source for information about whatever else was in the e-mail message), if you don't mind. Still, what about figuring out the wrong things? (the Red Herring possibilities? Even the games have them, both in their gameplay and dialogues)

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/ZUN%27s_E-mails

It's the very first e-mail asking if Reimu is the 13th Shrine Maiden (because Perfect Cherry Blossom's prologue ends with an alleged quote from the 13th shrine maiden that Gensokyo is a paradise because everyone can have mock duels)

Even the way ZUN answers the e-mail shows just how much ZUN loves to screw around with the Touhou fanbase when it comes to Touhou plot.  Despite this, he probably does have most of it plotted out.  He just doesn't seem to want to tell the Touhou fanbase most things directly.  He even mentions at the beginning of the e-mail correspondence that there's Touhou canon that he only tells close friends (I suspect Maribel's full story, Sakuya's origins, and many other things are part of this secret canon.  ...well, in Sakuya's case, he says he'll never reveal her origins and then later says he plans to reveal them so dunno what's up with that.  Translation error?)

btw I find it difficult for Eirin to have attacked the Apollo 13 by herself, because she was already on Earth by that time
she could be representing Apollo 13's failure, as well as representing the Hourai Elixir without having actually consumed it

Maybe.  Like I've indicated, I can't say for sure what's going on there.  At all.

I actually had Suika's competition habits in mind when I wrote that, and thought that common youkai would be able to enjoy their journey towards self-improvement. Anyways, at least Suika does enjoy hard work.. (while Yukari and Ran like to choose optimal paths)

Yea.  Suika's one of the more enlightened characters in the series, really (despite always being drunk.  Or maybe she's so wise because she's always drunk.  ZUN loves his booze)

Anyways, I mentioned Alice because since she can manipulate dolls, she no longer has to do house chores herself. Like how Ran usually does Yukari's jobs when the latter's asleep.

Side note:  According to Perfect Memento, manipulating the dolls to do chores is actually just as exhausting as if she had done the chores, herself.  IIRC, a chapter of Curiousities of Lotus Asia states this as well (and indicates Alice is really just talking to herself when she talks to her dolls).

>> Er... "God Complex" is a psychological disorder, not a level of power.  When you say someone has a "god complex", you're saying they're mentally unhinged and they THINK they're far superior to everyone else, whether they are or not (Yukari is described as a wierdo often, after all, and there's a reason most people dislike her)

>> A god complex is a non-clinical term generally used to describe an individual who consistently believes they can accomplish more than is humanly possible or that their opinion is automatically above those they may disagree with.[1]  The individual may believe he or she is above the rules of society and should be given special consideration or privileges. The term "god complex" does not appear in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).[2]

I thought that there was enough information elsewhere to make such a connection (Maribel being Yukari) so distant, that it wouldn't even be worth trying to work with (and, like I've sort of said before, who knows if ZUN wanted to reference Lafcadio Hearn/Koizumi Yakumo and, potentially, Saigyō Hōshi, while having Maribel Hearn be a minor "Yakumo" clan member?)

Not sure I'm understanding what you're saying here.  Are you saying there's a possibility that Maribel isn't meant to be a reference to Lafcadio at all, or are you saying something else?  Sorry, I'm having trouble interpretting this.

Well, if it's the former, I've actually done a lot of research into Lafcadio Hearn last week, but am still working on the post.  In the end, I've found a LOT of possible references that Maribel has to him.  Sadly, without ZUN actually going out and stating that he did those references on purpose, though, they exist as mere possibilities.  I'll post that post... er... later or something if I manage to finish it.

after re-reading Sikieiki's PMiSS entry, it seems that I've forgotten the "..and particularly long-lived youkai have been helped by her at least once. " part. So it seems that she doesn't exterminate youkai on sight. That may be a possibility, that Yukari could win against Sikieiki, but has no reason for doing so (and that would actually be harmful to those who need her help).

I imagine Yukari is familiar with Siki because Siki helped her at one point too (Yukari is a long-lived youkai, after all).  But... yea, Yukari would definately want to stay away from Siki if only because Siki probably could spend years ranting to Yukari about the sins she's committed, and dealing with a long lecture like that would be very annoying, to say the least.  I doubt the two are actual enemies, though (if anything, they're probably allies of the "grudgingly" variety)

this may be the case, for someone with such a complex, but I haven't seen Yukari as one of these people. Just when I think about how Yukari pisses people off (in reversible ways), she has a reason for doing so, which would be agreed with if people understood her.. (just thought that, for example, Yukari's success in SSiB means that she'll help the Eientei crew stay hidden from humans and lunarians, as a favor exchange. Just a theory, though.)

One can have a god complex but still be working towards the greater good.  "Benevolent dictator", if you will.  In Yukari's case, she's always going around forcing or manipulating others into doing what she thinks needs to be done, and she never ever stops to ask them if it's okay or if they don't mind.  She never tells them why she's doing things or making people do things.  Basically, she acts as if you're obligated to listen to her.  Because she's right, and if you disagree, you're wrong (her viewpoint, IMHO).

The fact that she usually is right in the end anyways doesn't really change that she seems to think and act this way.  The majority of characters she seems to treat or view almost on the same level that she treats/views her computer (Ran)

There are two exceptions to her god complex that I could find.  Yukari's dialogues with Yuyuko and Suika almost never have her forcing anything on them, and she specifically tells them that she's only fighting them because she's genuinely worried about them.  This makes sense, though.  Yuyuko and Suika are two of Yukari's closest friends.  In fact, my own theory is that Yukari met both of them before she developed this god complex.  Heck, if anything, that's the only logical way Suika would have befriended Yukari in the first place, considering that Suika hates Present Day Yukari's tricks and schemes.  Lucky for Yukari, according to Perfect Memento, you only need to get an Oni's friendship for a moment in order for them to never betray you.  Maribel befriending Yuyuko early on makes a ton of sense, too, considering that Yuyuko as a living human being suffered the same dilemma that Maribel did (the fear of seeing your powers grow so drastically.  Maribel herself was on the verge of a nervous breakdown in Changeability of Strange Dream as her powers expanded, although she didn't realize that was what was happening)

(side note:  Suika says to Youmu, "Don't trust Yukari.  Her very existance is fraudulent."   I suspect Suika's one of the few people that knows Yukari's true past/origin)

Well, she's rather nice to Youmu (it'd be inappropriate if she weren't.) and at least cordial to Remilia (but not to Remilia's friend, Patchy).  The latter is probably because the two are kind of on a business relationship considering that they have a contract with each other.  Depending on how you interpret things, Yukari is nice to Sakuya too, but that makes sense if it's the case because Yukari met Sakuya as Maribel (so the two are old friends, in a way.  It does depend on how you interpret their conversation after their fight in PCB, though)

Yuka wanted to obtain "ultimate magic", it seems, dunno exactly *why*.. (was it MS, or Kioh Gyoku? I've forgotten already..)

Gaining power and gaining control are often related, but not always.  Yuka's power enables her to play around with people more.  But she still isn't the type to seek to outright CONTROL people.  Far as I can tell, anyways (again, in the present day, as stated by Perfect Memento, she doesn't even leave her flower field very often now.  And Yuka tells Siki that she's just enjoying teasing people)

Yuyuko, as you said, doesn't enjoy misusing her powers (and that's why she was made -- once more, I've forgotten where I've read this.. can do the research later, though -- the princess of Hakugyokurou ), and can understand Yukari better than most characters (she wouldn't be the type to help an oppressor, I think).

Yukari doesn't really oppress that much, though.  A "god complex" IIRC just means you think you're always right and everyone is obligated to listen to you.  But as long as the people are following the general framework of the rules, they can do whatever else they want.  Thus most of the time, Yukari is more than happy to just let people do whatever, as long as they aren't going against what she believes must be the established roles (and if they are going against it, she's going to do something not-nice.  Like say, charge you a residence tax)

For example, did she ever ask Eirin if it was okay if she get charged a residence tax?  No, not really.  Again, even if Yukari is RIGHT, it doesn't change the fact that she's just going to force her methods on you whether you like it or not.

Eirin could be sought by the lunarians to *further* strengthen their military might.. (plus, it was Eirin's messing around with the moon's rotation that kept Yukari from escaping from the moon the "first time") .. that alone says a lot

Anyways, if Yukari tries to become a goddess, there's enough people to stop her. (more if you count Shinki, if she feels like it -- a goddess that doesn't require faith, and was able to create Makai, which means that she's older than Makai itself and that there's a possibility for her to create other worlds as well)

Of course.  It wouldn't be a touhou game or story if the villain just won off the bat without the players having a chance to stop her.

If anything, like I've indicated before, there's a truckton of opposition building up to Yukari's plans.  Like I said, I fully believe ZUN is working towards some big epic clash here.

[Tiamat]

I was going to wait until I finished my Perfect Memento post first before making this one, but this CiLR chapter got me in the mood for this

The Untold Story of Maribel (my own speculation):



Re-reading the CiLR chapter, I need to revise my theory of what Yukari's story to Ran was about.  At first, I thought Yukari was just telling Ran that she fully knew she'd be caught.  Looking at it again, however, it really differs too much from what ended up happening in SSiB for that to be the case.  My new theory is that the story might actually be what happened to Maribel when she went to the moon.  Of course, there's no proof for this, but it's possible, since the story seems to depict a youkai who's border powers had only just started to mature and the youkai only wanted to look and play around on the moon a bit (which is kinda what Maribel wanted to do)

Of course, that does beg the question:  What happened to Maribel after she got caught?

At this point, you basically enter into the realm of wild mass guessing or epileptic trees.  Especially when you consider that one of Eirin's spell cards is called "Butterfly Catching Web" (and Toyohime refers to the trap in SSiB as a web, IIRC.  When you consider that Eirin set that trap, you basically come to the possible conclusion that Eirin knows that Yukari is a butterfly, and thus that Eirin knows Yukari is Maribel, and thus.... well, like I said, epileptic trees)

In Eirin's Bohemian Archive article, Eirin has created a medicine called "Butterfly Dream Pill".  She states that the previous version could make you actually get trapped in your dream and never wake up (of course, as I've pointed out before, Rinnosuke and Renko already realize this is possible, too).  After Maribel got caught, did "Evil Eirin" of the moon force feed her some of these?  (remember, Eirin only became a nicer person after living on the earth.  So if you get a parallel timeline where she stayed on the moon instead, you get someone... not very nice.  ....even Earth Eirin is pretty nasty tho.  She was going to friggin' impale Patchouli in SSiB for a moment there, screw the spell card rules!)

There's also the part where Akyu states that someone told her Kaguya has the power to manipulate parallel timelines.  It's possible that Yukari herself told Akyu this (many other things that begin with "It is said" in Perfect Memento appear to have been said by Yukari.  I'll detail them all when I make that Perfect Memento post finally.  ...stupid real life has been busy lately).  This does beg the question of how Yukari would know this.

Another thing of note is that in the original bamboo tale that Kaguya is from, it actually has a bad ending where Kaguya DOES go back to the moon.  This new paralle timeline that could be created by sending Maribel to the past would also result in Kaguya getting to stay on earth (Yukari was first spotted around the same time that Kaguya's bamboo tale took place, if you allow a margin of error of a few decades, since Yukari was probably around before she was first recorded in the Gensokyo Chronicles)

Another "it is said" statement in Perfect Memento is in regards to Eirin creating "medicines for obscure illneses".  If that's a statement from Yukari, Yukari might have talked about it because she's had her own experiences with some such things.

FYI, another "it is said" statement is "It is said that Sakuya Izayoi isn't her real name."  This leads to even more epileptic trees if, like most other "it is said" statements, it comes from Yukari.  We never actually learn the name of the maid that Maribel met in Changeability of Strange Dream.  There's even evidence in that story that Sakuya (who might not have had the name Sakuya) was the mistress of the mansion, since she had a tea party specifically "in the sun" with Maribel.  A timeline where Remilia doesn't exist means a Sakuya that retained her real name.  Thus, Yukari would know Sakuya's real name and would be able to tell Akyu "Sakuya isn't her name, by the way."  This also explains why Yukari wouldn't know Sakuya by name when they finally meet in Perfect Cherry Blossom (although after their fight, Sakuya realizes that Yukari is a butterfly, and then the two start having a conversation about the value of things in houses, which is what Maribel's conversation with Sakuya in Changeability was about.  It's possible that this is when Yukari and Sakuya finally recognized each other from when they met in Changeability.  Like most things in this post, this is my speculation).  Perfect Memento also states Sakuya DOES have the power to send things back in time, but it's very difficult and done in a way that time may as well have never been reversed at all, because the object will end up the way it was, anyways.  But what happens if this power is combined with Kaguya's power to create parallel time lines?  In that case, the object doesn't have to end up the way it is because it can be in a parallel timeline, and thus something like this might be able to send Maribel back in time to rescue Kaguya (if that is what happened, though, Kaguya must have looked significantly different or so, because Yukari wonders what Kaguya is in Imperishable Night.  Note, however, that there is absolutely nothing which indicates IN is the first time Yukari's seen Eirin.  In fact, Yukari is very fast to point out that she thinks Eirin is the villain, and doesn't say she's never met Eirin before)

ZUN confirms in e-mail correspondence that "Sakuya Izayoi" isn't her real name.  It's one of the few times ZUN's actually given "word of god" canon to the storyline.




From this, I've put together this speculation story:

(SPECULATION!)

Maribel first met Sakuya in Changeability of Strange Dream.  This, however, was a timeline when Sakuya successfully killed Remilia and Flandre and thus became the owner of their mansion (and retained her original name, whatever it may be).  They had a tea party in the sun, where they discussed Maribel's dreams (Maribel knew she was dreaming in Changeability even within her own dreams) and also discussed how great Sakuya's mansion is.

Later on, shortly after Magical Astronomy, Maribel finally makes her way to the moon.  I dunno if Renko was able to come along or not.  From here, the story that Yukari gave to Ran in CiLR Chapter 5 takes place.  Maribel (who may or may not have already become a youkai after her powers have awakened) tries to get into the capital so she can look and play around a little, but realizes her powers aren't strong enough yet and/or there isn't much time (as per Yukari's story.  Yukari gives both possibilities for why the youkai had to turn back)

Unfortunately, because of a trap set long long ago by the "much despised Lunarian Sage" (Yukari seems to really really hate Eirin even today, since she keeps referring to Eirin like that...), she can't escape.  She has no choice to surrender when she is captured by the Lunarians (in this timeline when Yukari didn't exist yet, I'm not exactly sure what would have made Eirin set this trap.  Maybe she made it to catch Toyohime after Toyohime went nuts from her sister being wrongfully executed for rebellion or something.  ...like I said, epileptic trees)

From here, somehow, Kaguya (who's absolutely miserable and hates being on the moon.  This is her state at the end of the original Bamboo Tale that Touhou Kaguya is based on) finds out about Maribel's dreaming power (possibly from Renko?  Maribel? Whatever).  She also learns that Maribel is prone to time-slipping in her dreams.

Perhaps seeing an earthling like Maribel rekindled Kaguya's own memories of Earth (she received amnesia in the bamboo tale, IIRC) and gave her a yearning to go home.

In this parallel timeline where Yukari never existed, besides Kaguya's own miseries, there could be many other miseries as well.  Toyohime, for example, would be quite unhappy after her sister got wrongly executed for leading a rebellion.

At this point, Sakuya may have come back to the moon (maybe after killing the vampires, she uses their mansion as a vacation home).  Sakuya, too, probably would wish she had a better fate than the one she currently has (Touhou Sakuya's life is a paradise, as stated in Phantasmagoria.  She gets to be friends with both youkai and humans, and surrounded by fairies.  Oriental Sacred Place shows that Sakuya LOVES fairies, which is probably why she's always hiring them into the Scarlet Devil Mansion despite their uselessness)

Sakuya, Kaguya, and Eirin concoct a way to change this terrible time into a better one.  A time when Kaguya could live happily on earth.  Where Sakuya wouldn't have to be so alone (and living with the nightmare of killing a couple 10 year old children).  Where Toyohime's sister Yorihime wasn't wrongfully executed for a rebellion she had nothing to do with.

With that, Eirin gives Maribel the dream pill (maybe by force, or maybe not.  Maybe with Renko's approval, or maybe not.  I lean towards "not", though, considering how much Yukari hates Eirin).  Sakuya uses her power to send Maribel back in time (It's normally VERY hard for Sakuya to do this, but this time she is aided by Maribel's time-slipping potential when she's dreaming.).  Kaguya manipulates a parallel timeline to make this all possible.

Maribel (re)awakens in a land 1,300 years ago from today (the time when Kaguya's bamboo tale takes place).  Maybe by accident, or maybe not, she ends up causing a change in events.  Initially, Eirin and the lunar emissiaries succeed in capturing Kaguya and taking her back to the moon.  But thanks to this new factor (Maribel), something somehow gets screwed up, and Eirin ends up deciding to help Kaguya instead.

Shortly afterwards (around 1,200 years ago), Akyu in one of her earliest incarnations would record the first known sightings of an unnamed youkai with the power over boundaries....


Hmm... I guess that part brings us to


Maribel's Not-As-Untold (but still untold!  Kinda) story:


Now in the past with no way back, Maribel pretty much had nothing else to do but begin her goal of a Gensokyo paradise (she probably didn't know it was actually named Gensokyo until after going back into the past, but I'm sure she'd be able to recognize it from her dreams and maybe experience at the Hakurei Shrine).  She first starts with giving herself a suitable name, Yukari Yakumo (with all the meanings it has, as pointed out by CoLA)and then proceeds to work her way into Youkai society, wow-ing the youkai with her knowledge of constellations (Curiousities of Lotus Asia) to become accepted as one of their sages.

From there, she would make all sorts of lies to the youkai in order to accomplish her goal.

"Let's invade the moon so we can get their source of unlimited energy and play all day!"  (the lie she gave to Remilia for why the original invasion of the moon took place)  WHAM!  "Aw crap, we got destroyed!  We'd better stick to Gensokyo and never try to invade anywhere ever again!"

"Let's make the barrier even STRONGER, so that the outside world humans' disbelief can't do anything to us!"  (okay, that one was actually not really a lie.  But it did have the side-effect of forcing the youkai to not over-eat Gensokyo's humans, because they needed to make sure Gensokyo humans didn't go extinct after that)

"Let's establish a contract with the vampires, so they can't eat our humans in Gensokyo!" (except she then tacked on a whole bunch of other restrictions to the contract, to the point where the youkai had to go to the shrine maiden and complain about it)

"You didn't like that contract?  Okay, let's do these spell card rules instead!" (Speculation:  except thanks to the original contract with the vampires, she was still able to tack on a whole bunch of other restrictions.  This time, however, the youkai gladly accepted the restrictions, probably because the restrictions weren't anywhere near as bad as what was in the original contract)

With the spell card rules in place, Gensokyo's golden age can begin.  In the words of Akyu, today's Gensokyo is a paradise. And it is all thanks to the wise and enlightened youkai (Akyu's own words).


As for Sakuya... hmm... maybe the existence of Gensokyo in this timeline, brought about by Yukari, promoted Remilia to change fate when she saw it.  Well, when dealing with epileptic trees, there are like, a billion different possible reasons for things.  Another one being how Sakuya might have retained her memories of Maribel (since Sakuya is one of the few people that knows Yukari is a "butterfly".  The other being Eirin.  Of note is that the two also have a secret relationship that ZUN isn't giving the details of).  Maybe Sakuya is capable of remembering what happened in the alternate timeline due to her own control over time.



Well, at any rate, this is what I think Maribel's story might be.  Of course, I can't be sure (...AT ALL), and a lot (understatement) of the above requires extropolation (ESPECIALLY the initial Lunarian part).




Actually, if you read Akyu's afterword in Perfect Memento, it's almost like one big fat gushy happy ending for Maribel.  Hooray for the youkai!  Hooray for this new paradise where youkai and humans can play together as friends!  No longer do humans have to run from human-faced monsters.  Maribel finally managed to change the nightmare into a beautiful dream!



....but then after that, maybe ZUN should have inserted a lemony snicket warning to not read on if you like happy endings.  Perfect Memento's final page (the colophon) has Yukari being the one who wrote "Vampire Pact".  And maybe, at this point, ZUN wants the reader to thus go back and read Perfect Memento's "Vampire" section.  There, the reader can be reminded about the devil's contract, again.

I don't know if ZUN intended things to be THIS dark, but... it's a bit hard to deny, too.  After all, what typically happens in most stories when you make a "contract with the devil"?  Usually something absolutely horrible happens to the protagonist (or worse, the protagonist BECOMES something horrible)

The original devil contract that was so necessary in order to finally change Gensokyo into a paradise?  Perfect Memento explicitly points out that it's still in effect to this very day.  In this contract, the vampires are forbidden from attacking the humans of Gensokyo.  In exchange for this, however, they get humans from the outside world for them to eat (and they do eat them to this day.  Flandre's profile in EoSD as well as Mei Ling's Perfect Memento article both state the two get to eat human for their meals).

"It's said they are outside humans whose deaths are of no consequence (suicides, etc.)"  (from Perfect Memento.  Again, my theory is that most things that begin with "It is said" in Perfect Memento are things that Yukari told Akyu)

(on a side note, Yukari claims to hibernate during the winter.  However, she is fully awake and apparently ignoring such things in Curiousities of Lotus Asia.  Winter, by the way, is the season where the most suicides are said to take place.  That may or may not be factually correct, but it is what winter is typically associated when it comes to when the most suicides take place)

Again, I'm not sure if ZUN intended to make things THAT dark, but it makes one wonder.  Yukari ended up doing a lot of morally questionable things (lying, manipulating, outright war, selling her soul to the devil).  Now, under this contract that she can never betray, she has to give Remilia people from the outside world (Remilia even might be asking how it's going in her win quote to Yukari in Touhou Hisentoukou).  Sure, she tries to justify it by saying those peoples' deaths "are of no consequence", but is that any moral justification for possibly either killing someone or at the very least, just standing by while they die (even if via suicide)?  (I'm going by the assumption that vampire food needs to be really fresh.  I could be wrong).  And then to use the justification that their "deaths are of no consequence"?  (now THAT'S god complex)  Maribel may have succeeded in her quest to transform the nightmare into a beautiful dream where humans no longer had to actually fear human-faced monsters, but after she finally accomplished that, she may have become the human-faced monster, herself (and the only one).

"If I take you on my boat, I wonder how long I'd have to row? " ~Komachi to Yukari (Scarlet Weather Rhapsody)

[Vicks]

That was an awesome post, a great read. But I have a nagging question. Is it possible for Maribel to really go that far "over the edge", as you mentioned? The Maribel we know is possibly quiet, pretty meek, confused, maybe even outright terrified that she has these dreams. The Yukari we know is cunning, arrogant, all-knowing and downright snarky (though she does have good intentions). By the looks of it, something may have happened to completely change Maribel's perception. Maybe it was her losing Renko, or something large that she completely changed?

Again, WMG/epiletic trees :V

[Tiamat]

One other remark about the ending to my previous post:

From ZUN's Perfect Memento Afterword:  "I've said it so many times now, Gensokyo is idyllic and pastoral, and is a "peace at any price" kind of a world."

In the Dragon section of Perfect Memento, the youkai sages (of which Yukari is confirmed to be one) pledged peace to the Dragon.  It's logically possible that the youkai sages paid the biggest price for Gensokyo's peace.  Considering that the final thing that brought about peace was the devil's contract, and that typically in most stories, devil contracts have HUGE "prices" associated with them, was Maribel's "price" that she'd become the very human-faced monster she was trying to stop?

That was an awesome post, a great read. But I have a nagging question. Is it possible for Maribel to really go that far "over the edge", as you mentioned? The Maribel we know is possibly quiet, pretty meek, confused, maybe even outright terrified that she has these dreams. The Yukari we know is cunning, arrogant, all-knowing and downright snarky (though she does have good intentions). By the looks of it, something may have happened to completely change Maribel's perception. Maybe it was her losing Renko, or something large that she completely changed?

Again, WMG/epiletic trees

Warning:  Huge wall of text



Hmm... well, there are two ways to interpret that question that I can think of.  The first being "Is it realistic?"  IE, is it REALLY possible psychologically for someone like Maribel to go over the edge?  Would having such ridiculously godly power to control borders like that and have it over the course of 1,200+ years really be able to twist someone's mind so much?

Needless to say, we don't have any real life examples to draw upon for that.  Personally, though, I myself think it's possible enough, especially considering that Yukari is revealed in Flower Blooming Vagrant to retain the normal human lifespan for memory (60 years).  I think it'd be hard for any human mind (and at the very least, Yukari's memory ability is human) to remain sane for more than a couple centuries of having power like that.  ZUN himself appears to be aware of this, considering that Mokou (the other long-lived human) ended up going insane (and then er... possibly even looped around to being sane again depending on how you interpret it)

In essence, it really shouldn't take too long for Maribel's personality to change after "only" a century or two with powers like that.  I lean towards her still being somewhat innocent by the time she met Yuyuko (which is how the two were able to become such good friends), which meant she was able to maintain her more optimistic outlook on life for about 200 years.  That's just my opinion though since again, I don't have any real world cases of a centuries old human to draw upon



In terms of if it's possible that ZUN made it this way, well... as with everything else, ZUN is really vague.  I mentioned it a couple posts ago, but I personally think Suika is evidence that Yukari wasn't always the manipulative schemer she was today.  One thing that ZUN makes VERY clear about Oni is they absolutely despise "dirty tricks" (I guess Suika's IamP mist thing doesn't count because getting people to party is just a logical effect of density or... something like that).  It's to the point where you can get an oni to leave you alone just by chucking around soy beans because soy beans say "Hey, I'm lying that I'm a farmer!"  (Patchouli's Bohemian Archive interview).  Furthermore, in SA, Yuugi starts to get mad at Aya when she mistakingly thinks Aya disguised herself as a human, because that's a dirty lie.  Even Suika says to Yukari in their IamP fight that Yukari's tricks are always dirty.

The question is, then, how did an Oni end up befriending one of the most scheming manipulative suspicious people in the Touhouverse?

Perfect Memento's Oni section states that if you get an oni's friendship for even a moment, they'll never betray you.  I interpret this to mean that if you ever somehow become an oni's friend (something which I'm pretty sure isn't meant to be easy), you'll be friends with that oni forever no matter what (like many things, this is an interpretation and could possibly be wrong). It also states that oni are masters of Zen (Maribel's butterfly motif is heavily rooted in zen).  What I think ZUN is trying to hint at here for the reader to figure out is that somehow, some way, long long ago (1000+ years ago, around Yuyuko's time.  See below) Yukari was a different personality.  One that was more honest and innocent, which Suika had befriended (IE, Maribel before she had gone off the edge).  After that, they would be friends forever, no matter how scheming and trickster Yukari would become afterwards.







Tangent bout the Yuyuko and Suika IamP dialogue indicating the Suika friendship timeline:  Yuyuko tells Yukari that as tea gets old, it loses it's fresh scent.  Yukari then states she disagrees and it's impossible for her scent to fade, before the two fight.  Give that the two are arguing during this time, one possible interpretation is that Yukari thinks Yuyuko is hinting that their friendship is dying, and gets annoyed that Yuyuko would dare suggest a thing and fights Yuyuko over it.  But after the battle, however, Yuyuko says that actually, the scent never goes away but instead merely thins out (indicating that the friendship really will last forever, or maybe she's just saying "Actually, I wasn't talking about our friendship.  I was talking about Suika."), and then asks Yukari with a "please" to draw Suika out.  Yukari then says she has no choice specifically because Yuyuko herself asked (indicating she's doing it because they are friends.  This is different from Yukari's dialogues with other characters in IamP, where instead she has no choice simply because they beat her).  When Suika finally comes out, Yuyuko is dissappointed saying she was hoping she'd recover old memories but instead just found a demon.  My own interpretation is that Yuyuko's telling Suika "Drat, it's YOU. -_-" (IE, that Suika is a memory too but not a nice one).  The two then get really snippy with each other.

(one other possible interpretation which is not mutually exclusive could also be that Yuyuko is telling Suika that the new tea she found (Reimu, apparently, since that's where Yuyuko got the tea) is a better friend than Suika is)

....well, again, these are interpretations.  It can't be helped when dealing with a cloud cuckoolander like Yuyuko.  But if these interpretations are even halfway correct, then it seems safe enough to say that Suika was probably friends with Yukari at least 1,000+ years ago, if not longer.

More evidence that Suika must have befriended Yukari very very shortly she arrived in Gensokyo (and thus before her powers had enough time to twist Maribel's mind into the schemer she is today) is that Suika herself indicates to Youmu in IamP that she knows Yukari's origins.  "Don't trust Yukari.  Her very existence is fraudulent." (which is what Maribel being Yukari could classify as on multiple possible fronts.)

Possible reasons why Yukari's existance is fraudulent:

A:  Maribel is in Gensokyo because she dreamed her way there.  She isn't supposed to exist.

B:  Maribel travelled back in time to get to Gensokyo.  There was probably a parallel timeline without Yukari/Maribel (Kaguya's PM article shows that the concept of parallel timelines exists in the Touhouverse, at least).  IE, she isn't supposed to exist.

C:  Yukari isn't even born an actual youkai or her real name or her true identity.  IE, her existence is fraudulent

I personally think Suika met Maribel back when Maribel was more innocent and open about things.  During this time, Maribel had become such good friends with Suika that she told Suika her true origins (And Suika would never betray her by revealing her secret to anyone else).

Yukari may have told Yuyuko her true origins too.  Sadly, Yuyuko can't even remember what she had for breakfast (brick joke), so I was not able to find any indication whether or not Yuyuko knows Yukari's secret in any official work (unlike Suika)




Getting back on topic:

Well, that's my interpretation.  In essence, I do personally think it's more than possible for someone like Maribel to eventually go off the edge.  If anything, the poor girl valiantly held onto her morality for quite a respectable long time (at least 200 years) before she started doing all the "dirty" stuff (the moon invasion was 1,000 years ago, while nameless youkai Yukari was seen at least 1,200 years ago), and I also think that Suika is evidence that the Yukari of today wasn't always this mean.  I could be wrong, of course.



As for what finally made her snap?

Well, it might have been the loss of Renko, but if so, that had to be a gradual factor, considering that Maribel might have held onto being a good girl for at least 200 years after being separated from Renko.

Personally, I think what made her snap was Yuyuko's death.  (speculation warning!)

Yuyuko died 1,000 years ago.  The invasion on the moon (the first truly dirty scheme that Yukari did) was 1,000 years ago as well.

Now, there is absolutely nothing to state HOW Yuyuko's death made Yukari snap, but Yuyuko's death taking place around the same time as Yukari's first (and one of her biggest) dirty tricks seems a bit too much to be just a coincidence to me.

Well, one thing we do know about Yuyuko's death:  She committed suicide because she was scared of her power.  Now, if Yukari truly was the one who told Akyu "We feed the vampires with outsider humans who's deaths are of no consequence, like suicides.", then that shows you that Yukari herself thinks a person's death is meaningless if they committ suicide.  One interpretation of this is that Yukari despises people who commit suicide to the point where she thinks their deaths have no meaning.  Sure, she's still friends (very good friends) with Yuyuko today, but Yukari in Flower Blooming and in IamP is constantly mad at how half-heartedly Yuyuko does things (IE, not putting enough meaning or feeling into it.

The fact that Yuyuko ran away from her power by committing suicide could have been the ultimate slap to Yukari's face, especially considering that the two were likely such good friends at that point because they shared such similar pasts.  Yuyuko committing suicide in a way would be her abandoning Yukari, too (Yukari likely had no way of knowing she'd be able to be friends with Yuyuko as a ghost afterwards).  Being abandoned by her only human friend in this new world after already losing Renko because Yuyuko ran away from her power might have made Yukari decide to fully embrace her's instead, and throw away all morals and such in order to accomplish her goals, as opposed to Yuyuko who always went about things so half-heartedly (and in the end just gave up and abandoned Yukari by killing herself)



tl;dr version:

Yukari (possibly) sees suicides as making death inconsequential (if she was the one that stated that to Akyu), and is also constantly annoyed with how Yuyuko never cares about consequences (always doing things half-heartedly, in Yukari's IamP words).  So I think it was Yuyuko's suicide that made Yukari snap and decide to take everything super-seriously via any means necessary.  In this way, Yuyuko's death could symbollically have caused the death of the innocent and care-free Maribel we all knew.


Alternate (but not mutually exclusive) theory:  Yuyuku committed suicide yet was REWARDED for it (becoming appointed head of the netherworld).  Angry about this (because of all the emotional trauma losing Yuyuko caused her, only to see Yuyuko get rewarded for that action), Yukari decided she would make Gensokyo her's, because if Yuyuko could get the entire netherworld for killing herself, why shoudl Yukari have to worry about what's right and what's wrong when it comes to claiming power/leadership/your vision for your country?


Second alternate theory:  The saigyou youkai cherry tree, reknown for being a tree where people come to die (IE, suicide), might have been partially responsible for Yuyuko's death (although this isn't explicitly stated anywhere.  It's possible though, considering that Yuyuko's body was used to seal it once and for all).   Seeing that it was a youkai that killed the only one around that understood her, Yukari snapped and vowed to do everything she could to seal the youkai at any cost.  First she sealed that stupid cherry tree FOREVER, fittingly with its last victim, and after that she was willing to do anything to stop those monsters from killing more humans.  This theory is also not mutually exclusive with either of the above (IE, it's possible that all three of these theories happened.  But again, they're only theories)



The above are merely possible reasons how Yuyuko's death could have affected Yukari.  I think the main point though is that when Yuyuko killed herself, it caused a huge emotional trauma to Yukari of both sadness (the memo in Yuyuko's PCB profile) and anger (Yukari to this day still feeling bitter about people who committed suicide).  The two in combination can do a lot to change someone, especially someone who was probably feeling extremely lonely and abandoned before she met Yuyuko in the first place (since by the time Maribel/Yukari met Yuyuko, she's basically been alone for 200 years.  She might have had Suika as a friend before then, but Suika is a youkai and wouldn't be able to understand Maribel the way Yuyuko, who suffered the same hardships, would)

This does assume that Yukari wrote that memo in Yuyuko's profile (to show how sad and devastated she was over Yuyuko's death) and that Yukari was both the one who made that statement to Akyu about suicides and was being purposefully condescending about it when she made it (to show how mad and bitter she was about it).

I personally imagine that Yuyuko's death isn't the only thing that contributed to Maribel's downward spiral.  Having such ridiculously godly powers, being urged by Renko to embrace them (Although a very good friend, Renko is really not the ideal example of purity morality.  She tells Maribel that she'd totally chug the elixir of immortality if she got the chance, claiming that the stories of it being cursed are just made up to scare people away from being greedy), possible traumatic incidents she may have run into when she made her way to the moon but was caught and surrendered, having to wander around in the past alone without Renko for about 200-300 years, finally meeting another human who could understand her (Yuyuko), and then that human basically ditching her by killing herself (as opposed to Maribel, who... well, didn't kill herself)...

Well, Yuyuko's death could basically be the "last straw that broke the camel's back", so to speak.  Again, this is only a guess, mostly based off of how (possibly) traumatized Yukari may have been from the death (the PCB memo, the Akyu statements) combined with the fact that Yuyuko's death took place very shortly before Yukari's first big manipulative scheme (the one that made her famous, and arguably one of her most morally vile ones.  It was a war, after all).




Tangent:  Incidentlly, the Dragon going all "ROAR!!!!" making the youkai sages (of which Yukari is confirmed to be one) pledging peace to pacify it also occurred 1,000 years ago (more specifically, "when the great Hakurei border was created".  That occurred 1,000 years ago).  Personally, I think the Dragon got mad that Yukari took the youkai of Gensokyo and waged a friggin' WAR with the moon.)

With that, I've put together this mini-timeline of what happened 1,000+ years ago (sadly, I don't know exactly when Yukari decided to name herself Yukari.  Knowing the exact moment could help a lot with determining her psyche at the time.  ...maybe.  It was definately before her moon invasion, though, since that's when she became famous, even if an unnamed youkai which seems to be her was spotted long before that):



Yukari befriends Suika (possibly occurred as early as 1,200+ years ago)

Yukari befriends Yuyuko (1,000+ years ago.  ...and I don't think Yuyuko and Suika got along very well.  Yuyuko's comments to Suika in IaMP are pretty mean.  I didn't see her ending, though)

Yuyuko commits suicide after seeing just how powerful she was becoming.

Possible event: Yukari is so emotionally distressed by Yuyuko's death that she seals Yuyuko's body away, proclaiming she hopes Yuyuko will never again reincarnate to suffer (one possible translation of the memo Yuyuko found in her PCB profile is "The sealing of the border between life and death is complete".  This translation isn't the one used on the wikia, but I've seen it used in other places.  If that really IS the correct translation, then it would seem to indicate Yukari was the one who sealed Yuyuko's body.  Anyways, I bring it up here because it gives a good idea of just how emotionally destroyed Yukari might have gotten after Yuyuko committed suicide.  The writer of the memo seems VERY distressed to me)

Yukari snaps as a result and changes from the innocent carefree Maribel into the dirty-trick manipulative Yukari, deciding that she wouldn't be like Yuyuko and the kid's gloves were now off.

Ghost Yuyuko gets granted eternal residence and authority over the Netherworld by the Yama, who were impressed by her restraint and her power (her Perfect Memento article).

Yuyuko and Yukari meet again.  Speculation:  Although Yukari is a changed personality, Yuyuko lost her memories anyways and despite being emotionally hurt by Yuyuko's suicide, Yukari can't help but befriend Yuyuko's ghost so she can be with her friend again.  (Tangent: Most long-lived youkai were helped by Siki, and we know Yukari probably met Siki before, considering she's more than ready to abandon base when she senses Siki in Flower Blooming.  Could the above have been the first time she met Siki?)

For her first big and dirty scheme, Yukari wages war on the moon.  She lies to the youkai, telling them that they can go get a source of unlimited energy there, after which they can play all day (she gives this lie to Remilia in SSiB.  I doubt she'd use a new lie because then Remilia could just say "Er... some other youkai tell me that's not the reason you gave the youkai long ago.").

(Speculation (but I feel pretty confident about this one):  In truth, Maribel had already seen the lunarian's advanced technology when she first went to the moon.  Maribel already knew that the people of earth had no chance against the lunarians (in Yukari's CiLR story, the unnamed Youkai came to this realization.  IE, Maribel came to this realization that earthlings could not win against lunarians), even with the strongest youkai in existence doing it.  Maribel/Yukari fully knew they were about to get their butts handed to them.  And of course, they did.  After this, the youkai decided  War = BAD!!!)

(Why I believe the moon war came after Yuyuko's death:  Ran states in SSiB that Yuyuko was there for the first Lunar War.  I mean, it's possible Yuyuko was there as a human, but I doubt the youkai would have let a human come along, so I personally think Yuyuko was there as a ghost)

The Dragon sees Yukari's war on the moon and gets PISSED (speculation.  Maybe he thought the youkai wouldn't deserve the land within the newly created Hakurei border if they were going to be warmongerers).  He lets out an utter roar and Gensokyo is practically threatened to be demolished.  Seeing this, the youkai sages quickly pledge peace (IE, "We're sorry!  We won't do it again!"), and the Dragon becomes satisfied and spares them.





And.... er, somewhere some time ago, Yukari inked a deal with the Oni so they could go live underground (the deal is mentioned in Yukari's as well as another character's scenes with Yuugi in SA).  The last oni were seen about 500+ years ago, so they possibly left fully by then.

Suika would always be Yukari's friend, but maybe she went underground too because she couldn't stand how much her friend Yukari had changed.  Incidentally, Yukari's next "dirty trick" (forcing the youkai to not over-eat humans by strengthening the barrier) would be 500 years ago, as well.  Perhaps Suika saw this trick and decided that she couldn't take it, anymore.

Tewi (who I personally think was another one of the youkai sages, given her age, leadership, and state of enlightenment) also joined with the Lunarians a few hundred years after the Lunarian war.  She makes it clear in SSiB that she chose the Lunarians over others (and thus, in my interpretation, that she chose to abandon Yukari's youkai and side with the new comers).  Maybe she got fed up with Yukari's changed personality, too.  Then again, there's also the fact that Yukari/Maribel hates beast youkai (Maribel getting attacked by a human-faced beast youkai in Changeability, and Yukari seems to indicate she still hates human-faced beasts to this very day in her conversation with Keine in Imperishable Night).  Maybe Tewi ditched the other youkai with her rabbits because she saw how racist Yukari was against beast youkai.

(Ran's a beast youkai too.  However, the first confirmed interaction we ever see with Yukari and Ran is Yukari beating the poor fox for attacking some humans, even if it was in self defense.  Heck, like I said, Yukari basically converted Ran into her computer.  Not that she hates Ran though so much as loves Ran the same way many people might love their computers, but I'm getting off topic from my off-topic, now))








I think Yuyuko's meant to be a foil to Maribel in this regard.  As I've stated two posts above, both Maribel and Yuyuko had a power which started out weak (border-sight in Maribel's case, controlling spirits in Yuyuko's case) but gradually grew more and more, causing all sorts of emotional distress on them (Maribel's border manipulation that caused her to have those dreams, and Yuyuko's ability to actually make a person DIE through sheer will alone).  Yuyuko's profile even states her power grew unconsciously (IE, without her realizing it), just like Maribel's.

The place where the two diverge is that Yuyuko ended up refraining from using her power, to the point where she ended up killing herself.  This resulted in a cheerful carefree ghost girl who was also rewarded by the yama with the head position of the Netherworld (her Perfect Memento profile states this.  btw, I think "yama" is the plural for "yama" just like how "ninja" is the correct plural for "ninja").  Meanwhile, by the time Magical Astronomy had rolled around (possibly thanks to Renko, who basically encouraged Maribel to embrace the dream and change it to reality at the end of Changeability of Strange Dream) Maribel ended up accepting her power, using it for her own fancy (taking her own trip to the moon).  The result is that gradually over time it corrupted her way of thinking into the scheming Yukari we know today.  This fits even more if my wall of text is correct (IE, that it was Yuyuko's suicide where the true divergence happened)

Although... AFTER she became a ghost, Yuyuko herself kinda snapped, I suppose.  Her PCB profile then goes on to state that she started enjoying being able to invoke death after she became a ghost.  ...well, the Yuyuko of today is kinda scheming (albeit in an extremely chaotic fashion) and nuts, too, really, but she doesn't seem to be trying to control anything and apparently mostly spends her free time goofing off, unlike Yukari.  Then again, considering that her authority is legit and vested to her by the yamas, she doesn't have to go out of her way to manipulate things, either, as opposed to Yukari who's taken up managing of Gensokyo on her own (she is, after all, the one charging and taking the residence tax)





"Impressed by her unwillingness to curse people and her ability to control spirits, she was appointed by the great Yama to manage the souls of the dead."  (Yuyuko's Perfect Memento section)

(just in case some people are unsure, it's Yukari's PCB profile that confirms she knew Yuyuko when Yuyuko was alive)





Side note:  I was saving this for a Perfect Memento post but I typed it out here so I might as well post it.Yuyuko's section of Perfect Memento has a lot of "It is said" moments.  Again, my theory is that anything that begins with "it is said" was something that Yukari told Akyu, and many of Yuyuko's "it is said" moments do have to do with her origins and things that Yukari would mostly know about.  You can contrast this with Siki's section, which has almost no "It is said" moments at all.  Akyu is likely getting her information about Siki from the Ministry, which is cited as a source in the colophon of PM.  Akyu trusts the ministry to the point where even the lie about Heaven doesn't begin with "It is said".  Akyu, however, makes it very clear that she doesn't trust Yukari in Yukari's PM section.  Thus why I think anything that begins with "It is said" was stated by Yukari.  The exception is a part in Yuka's section where Akyu gives a footnote that Rinnosuke was the one that gave her the "it is said" moment.

For my Perfect Memento post, I'll list out all the "It is said" moments I can find.  Honestly, though, most of them fall under the "Well, it's no surprise that Yukari would be the one to say that" category.  The exceptions being the ones I've pointed out in the last few posts (mainly concerning Lunarians and Sakuya.  Although there is one "it is said" moment that states the Netherworld is bigger than Hell, which makes me wonder if Yukari's ever been there before.  Or maybe she's just talking about SAnimism's Old Hell)

[Anon]

I've had this question in mind for a while, but... Were you partly inspired by Touhou Labyrinth's ending(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnrtPG1TCiI) to pursue the Maribel becomes Yukari theory? You see, while it was in my opinion that most would go for the parallel existences theory and such things, the 'Maribel is actually Yukari's past self who was able to jump back in time' isn't actually a theory that would jump to the mind easily at first and would come after taking in all the hints/facts/etc. that canon gives and lining them up just right.

I always had this nagging sense of deja vu when concerning your theory, but couldn't place it because I had never actually heard it from anyone before. It was only until some time ago that I remember/found why it felt familiar. It was because of that ending (read Yukari's exchange with Mari and the exchange with Rinnosuke afterward). So, were you inspired partly from it? If so, bravo, bravo. You took something that seemed farfetched and placed it to plausible(maybe even more).

[Tiamat]

Random:

From Yumemi's PoDD profile:

★ Fantasy legend ... Okazaki Yumemi
She teaches comparative physics at the University. She doesn't look it, but she's already 18, which is
quite young to be a professor. In Yumemi's world, all the forces such as gravity, electromagnetism, and atomic
power have been resolved under a unified theory, which has been proven to explain all known forces in
the world. Yumemi believes there may be a force that doesn't fit in this theory - "magic". However, when
she announced her theory to the academic community, she became a laughingstock.



From MAGICal Astronomy (which takes place at Maribel's university):

Mankind, released from the gravity, is now developing a new culture. But, at the same time, they found that many of our tools worked relying on gravity. It was just recently that gravitational force, which had been proved long ago and annoyed physicist for a long time, was unified with the other forces.





THE PLANET OF THE APES WAS EARTH ALL ALOOOOONG!!!!1

(note:  Considering that ZUN stated he can't comment on PC98 games and you're free to ignore them, I dunno what to make about that.  But considering that ZUN himself doesn't ignore the PC98 games fully, who knows?  I'm of the opinion that Yumemi might have accidentally time-travelled and doesn't realize it.  Her machine is pretty wonky in general considering that in her own storyline, it ended up creating another Yumemi... somehow.  Either that or ZUN's just giving a shout-out and this isn't something your'e supposed to think about too much.)

I've had this question in mind for a while, but... Were you partly inspired by Touhou Labyrinth's ending(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnrtPG1TCiI) to pursue the Maribel becomes Yukari theory? You see, while it was in my opinion that most would go for the parallel existences theory and such things, the 'Maribel is actually Yukari's past self who was able to jump back in time' isn't actually a theory that would jump to the mind easily at first and would come after taking in all the hints/facts/etc. that canon gives and lining them up just right.

I always had this nagging sense of deja vu when concerning your theory, but couldn't place it because I had never actually heard it from anyone before. It was only until some time ago that I remember/found why it felt familiar. It was because of that ending (read Yukari's exchange with Mari and the exchange with Rinnosuke afterward). So, were you inspired partly from it? If so, bravo, bravo. You took something that seemed farfetched and placed it to plausible(maybe even more).

Wow, thanks!  Actually, I never played Touhou Labyrinth or read anything about its story at all.  I did think it looked really neat, though.  The story writer does seem to have caught onto the part where Maribel's powers are increasing.  I'm under the impression that the Japanese would be able to pick up on to stuff like this for most Japanese-only things a lot easier than us westerners because they don't have to worry about things like translation errors (and they also had access to CiLR long before we did, etc.  ...the jGE wiki isn't nearly as comprehensive as our's, though, so I imagine many Japanese never had access to reading Maribel's stories in depth.  Whoever made Touhou Labyrinth is probably a big enough Touhou fan to have purchased all the CDs though).

Originally, I thought it was a parallel existence, myself. (the typical theory in the wiki of Maribel being Yukari and Yukari being Maribel when they dreamed.  Albeit I also figured that they just jumped back and forth in time when they did it)  It was when I went back reading Changeability on a whim that I saw the line from Renko about Maribel's power actually evolving.  That was what kickstarted me researching everything else.  Previus to seeing that line, I always thought that Maribel was just a girl who could see borders and came to Gensokyo at random points in time in her dreams, but after that line, I realized that if Maribel's power was evolving, wouldn't that indicate that ZUN was actually indicate she was progressing towards something?  A little more further reading (Magical Astronomy's ending, precisely) made me realize that the thing she was progressing towards was becoming Yukari, herself. Fortunately, shortly before re-reading Changeability, I had already just recently read the chapter of CoLA that goes into detail about Yukari actually naming herself.

Translation roughness is probably a big part of the problem.  As much as my greatest thanks goes out to the one who translated Maribel's stories, I do have to admit that the translation of them is pretty.... rough.  It took me a while to figure out that Renko in the ending of Changeability is basically declaring she's going to help Maribel find that dream world, even if it means she won't be able to go back and Renko wouldn't be able to go with her (I doubt Renko thought Maribel would end up jumping down the slippery slope like that, though.  Still, it's not like the future world they lived in was very nice)

[shadowbringer]

once again, ZUN may have thought of some characters later (like Byakuren). When you consider Shinki, for example (if you don't start looking for Touhou-fied attack patterns..), you may imagine that ZUN may not have thought of everything from the start (plus, PoDD Touhou-fied Twinkle Star Sprites' gameplay), as long as he's careful enough to not retcon his "older works". (it would be an interesting possibility if he wants people to forget about them, only to reference them back later -- something more than bringing 2 characters back and using one of Shinki's attack patterns -- when he was successful. Or not.)

Like I stated earlier, there's the possibility that ZUN wanted to reference Lafcadio Hearn through Yukari, as the foreign writer, tied with Saigyō Hōshi, who may have been kinda Touhou-fied as Yuyuko. So, from here on, there's no evidences that eliminate the other possibilities, as it seems that ZUN makes an effort to make such a questioning an inconclusive one.. contrary to what he says about wanting people to find the answers by themselves. (seriously, ZUN, who would've figured about an object that's related to the Prismrivers' poltergeist origins, if you haven't mentioned it before?)

Just as a side thought, if Maribel really became Yukari, this means that Yukari herself can also travel in time (meanwhile, if Maribel and Yukari are really coincidences, Yukari's ability to travel in time can only be speculated), and that the Lunarians can counter that ability as well.

Side thought #2, I haven't played Labyrinth of Touhou yet, but an implication about Maribel becoming Yukari would break my suspension of disbelief instantly. Mainly because this may be disproven later (I haven't even watched Touhou Project Side Story, and heard that it was later trampled by Silent Sinner In Blue..). Once, I've read about people making stories or fanfics about fighting game series, and how they were susceptible to being "corrected" by the sequels, later.

Finally, these stories about Devil Contracts, Yukari becoming crazy because of losing Yuyuko's human self and/or Renko, could make for an interesting fanfic or doujinshi, however, it would be a sort of "believe if you will" thing, a possibility that's thrown to those who may want to listen. I really find this view of Yukari as a person who wants to control everyone and is obsessed with power, to be something out of Yukari's way (as in, she's supposed to be wise, not foolish, especially since there's other wise people around, who can take her away if she becomes a problem). Plus, the Devil Contract notion (if you meant it to refer to the Spellcard System) makes the characters look like they're losing something in exchange for using said contracts. In fact, the Spellcard System work as a limiter, and ZUN may have wanted to use it as an excuse to explain/reiterate the harmless fights and the shmup gameplay, while adding stories and expressing his creativity on them.

[Tiamat]

Once, I've read about people making stories or fanfics about fighting game series, and how they were susceptible to being "corrected" by the sequels, later.

Oh ho ho.  I see I've found yet another fan of my Street Fighter Plot Guide.  *Dan Hibiki thumbs up*



Alternative response:  Street Fighter: The Movie: The Game.  It's the game based on the movie of the game!

[shadowbringer]

Oh ho ho.  I see I've found yet another fan of my Street Fighter Plot Guide.  *Dan Hibiki thumbs up*



Alternative response:  Street Fighter: The Movie: The Game.  It's the game based on the movie of the game!

What's the Street Fighter Plot Guide? (I thought of SF too, but mainly remembered how I should not trust fan-made comics. Even if Andy Seto was the one who drew them. My thanks to him, for having drawn such awesome comics, besides immunizing me from regarding Touhou fanworks at the same level of credibility of the official works..)

Also, Double Dragon: The Movie: The Game.. which is quite a classic.

[Tiamat]

Eh, nevermind.  It's nothing.

At any rate, I'm not too worried about being corrected by sequels (assuming I'm really that far off the mark, anyways, which I don't think I am).  For one thing, if I am, then yay.  We get to know the truth instead of having to extrapospeculate.  For another, it's no big deal anyways and ZUN isn't going to come murder me in my sleep for being wrong.  For a third, Touhou was actually originally supposed to end with Phantasmagoria of Flower View, anyways (likely with Perfect Memento being the final work.  Again, Perfect Memento's afterword by Akyu is one big gushy happy ending), so I imagine if ZUN was going to reveal any "corrections", he probably would have done so by now, anyways.  I don't particularly expect anything to be revealed with the new story arc kicked off by Mountain of Faith, either.  Its focus seems to be more on the future (which makes sense, because with Touhou supposing to end with PoFV, ZUN's probably already revealed all the past he wants to reveal by now, anyways).  Maybe in another 5 years, I suppose.  ....maybe.

And if I'm wrong, ZUN's going to cme murder me in my sleep!  Fortunately, by then I'll be in Gensokyo where he can't get me.

[shadowbringer]

I've read (on the Wikipedia's "development" section of the StB entry) that ZUN had fun while making screenshots of his games, and that this could make a fun game. However, having Reimu taking photos would look strange, so he created Aya. But he felt that it would be strange to have a new playable character ( especially a protagonist ) without introducing her before. So he put her in PoFV, while working on BAiJR. (also, he introduced Yukari and other characters so that he could make them playables in IN)

Also, I've read that he wanted the fanbase to become smaller before releasing another game, but was unsuccessful at that, and released MoF anyways ( even its Faith system could be an intentional pun about the Touhou "devotees" )

[Tiamat]

I think Wikipedia's an even less reliable source than Yukari (but maybe better than Aya, since the latter is prone to making up stuff just for the heck of it).

The part about Aya is true, but I don't see why you're going to Wikipedia for that when Touhouwikia already has translated ZUN's actual words directly about it (search around the StB section of Touhouwikia).  Same with what he said about why he released MoF anyways (of which Wikipedia apparently has horribly mangled what ZUN actually said.  At any rate, the info is in one of the translated ZUN interviews in the ZUN section of Touhouwikia).

[shadowbringer]

Dunno about the other Wikipedia articles much, but as long as there are citations for sources, and there are enough maintainers for the articles themselves, the articles there are as reliable to me as the Touhou wikia's. So far, there weren't conflicting informations between the two sites about these two games, and I have yet to see how PoFV was meant to be the last Touhou game (rather than ZUN needing a break).. care to explain?

As for why I've cited Wikipedia, it's because it featured easily accessible information (regarding development processes) which is usually not seen on the Touhou Wikia. And Wikipedia isn't meant to be too much comprehensive and exhaust the matter about an article theme.. judging from the messages about sections needing "clean up" and such.. (example) ..so the information there's summarized as possible, when possible. I'd use the Touhou Wikia instead, if needed.

[Tiamat]

Dunno about the other Wikipedia articles much, but as long as there are citations for sources, and there are enough maintainers for the articles themselves, the articles there are as reliable to me as the Touhou wikia's. So far, there weren't conflicting informations between the two sites about these two games, and I have yet to see how PoFV was meant to be the last Touhou game (rather than ZUN needing a break).. care to explain?

As for why I've cited Wikipedia, it's because it featured easily accessible information (regarding development processes) which is usually not seen on the Touhou Wikia. And Wikipedia isn't meant to be too much comprehensive and exhaust the matter about an article theme.. judging from the messages about sections needing "clean up" and such.. (example) ..so the information there's summarized as possible, when possible. I'd use the Touhou Wikia instead, if needed.

Um... re-read my post.  You haven't figured out exactly where Wikipedia is getting its information from (and why it's thus more second-hand)

EDIT:  Okay, I've read the wikipedia article.  It's actually not Wikipedia that misread the intervview.  It's that you misread Wikipedia.

What Wikipedia is saying (and the interview they're getting it from, which is linked to translated at Touhouwikia) is that ZUN was waiting to see if the fanbase was going to die down.  No where did Wikipedia (or the interview it's likely using at its source, linked to from Touhouwikia) say that ZUN WANTED the fanbase to die down.  What both sources are saying is that ZUN was waiting to see IF it would die down.

More specifically, (and the interview makes it more clear), ZUN was going to leave Phantasmagoria as the final Touhou game if the Touhoufan base died down a bit.  However, it didn't. It only grew bigger. Seeing this, ZUN decided to continue after all and make Mountain of Faith.

What I'm saying (because I imagine you're probably misinterpretting me, too) is that even though he wasn't completely sure about it, ZUN was on the verge of leaving Phantasmagoria as the final Touhou game.  What do most authors do when they think they might possibly be finished with something?  A good author would make sure they wrap up any loose ends that they actually really really want to wrap up.  And I think ZUN did that for the most part (the remaining mysteries being stuff he doesn't intend to let the Touhou fanbase know, which is why I believe there's a decent chance ZUN will either never reveal the full story of Maribel/Yukari, or that he won't for a long long time until he finally decides to do so because he's in the mood.  The thing being, ZUN doesn't get in those moods very often, it seems)

Of course, I could be wrong.  I'm mainly going by the assumption that now ZUN wants to move on to NEW things instead of going back and exploring the old.  The latest arc is more about the new factors coming to Gensokyo which could throw it off balance than anything to do with most of the current characters.  So  I don't particularly expect ZUN to be using it to finally reveal many mysteries of the old characters' pasts.

Even then, however, there are some things he's possibly throwing in that reveal he might.  Byakuren, for example, is another potential foil for Yukari in several ways (should my theory be corrent, then both are humans that became youkai, but Yukari's come to accept that youkai and humans MUST play different roles.  Byakuren, meanwhile, wants them to be equals, and has even gone so far as to technically make a youkai settlement within the human village.  Suwako's another probable foil for Yukari, but Suwako' mainly seems to be a foil for the future, unlike Byakuren who MIGHT be a foil in someways for Yukari's past, which could lead to ZUN finally revealing Yukari's origins in full.  ....I'm not holding my breath, though.

There's also the fact that one of the most youkai-like youkai, and one that epitomizes the role of the youkai very heavily, was represented by a purple umbrella  (You know.  Purple.  Umbrella. The question being, is that a coincidence or...?).  If ZUN is really going somewhere with that, though, then again, I'm not holding my breath that he'll use it to reveal aspects of Yukari's origins.  Perhaps Kogasa might find out Yukaris secret if she ever goes to confront Yukari about how much her purpose for existing kinda sucks (the poor umbrella is in tears about it and even questions it in at least one of her dialogues).  Again, not holding my breath that Yukari's origins will come into the light from it, but it's possible.

Overall, however, I lean towards that if ZUN had really wanted to fully spell out Maribel/Yukari's origin/relationship/whatever, he would have done so by the time Perfect Memento (the last book after Phantasmagoria) came around.  But in the end, f anything, he left Perfect Memento as a final puzzle, instead (one with many pieces that aren't clearly definded, annoyingly enough).  Thus I don't really expect it to come up in the new Touhou games (indeed, the vast majority of indications/implications of it that I've been able to find come from games and books from before or shortly during Mountain of Faith).  Again, it might, but if so, then yay?

ZUN's the type of guy that doesn't care for dwelling on old stuff for too long and just moving on, after all.  That much is obvious considering that that's what he gave as his reason for not continuing to make PofV network patches.  It is likely the reason he semi-ditched the PC-98 games.

[shadowbringer]

>> Um... re-read my post.  You haven't figured out exactly where Wikipedia is getting its information from (and why it's thus more second-hand)

I thought that, for the most part, the Touhou-related Wikipedia entries were maintained by most of the same people as the Touhou Wiki's, as you can see whenever a new game's released? The people doing the updating, in this case, aren't strangers to the series.

>> EDIT:  Okay, I've read the wikipedia article.  It's actually not Wikipedia that misread the intervview.  It's that you misread Wikipedia.

that's right, however

(from Wikipedia's MoF article) After making Phantasmagoria of Flower View, ZUN decided to wait one year before making another game to see if the Touhou fandom would die down. Conversely, the Touhou fandom continued to grow, and ZUN decided to make the next game.[4]

isn't untrue, just not clear enough.. as in..

(from the interview translation hosted in gensokyo.org, which was cited in the above mentioned Wikipedia article) After finishing PoFV, ZUN decided he needed to take a break. He was wondering if he should make another Touhou game, and thought he?d wait until the number of fans died down a bit. The fanbase only increased, however, and he ended up making MoF anyway.

(note that this "another Touhou game" may very well have been StB, which needed PoFV for helping introduce Aya)