Author Topic: Yukari was Maribel: An analysis using official sources  (Read 43685 times)

Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2010, 05:01:24 PM »
After you beat Suwako in MoF's extra stage, Suwako states that she's the one providing the goods while Kanako's just the marketeer.  When I think about it, you're right.  This relationship does fit Yukari and Ran more than Yukari and Reimu (since Yukari is the one supplying Ran's power).

But yea, Sanae does make it a point to ask if Kanako knows what Suwako is doing in Hisou and Suwako basically replies with a "Nope, far as I know."

(Yukari tends to hide things from Ran too, as shown in SSiB)

But where did you read that Suwako was once human? Sure, I believe in the theory that Gods are the ghost of humans that obtained massive amounts of faith during their lifetime/after death (and thus could re-materialize again in a more powerful form), but as far as I know there hasn't been any official confirmation of that. Care to show the source of that fact?

Hmm... that's odd.  I could have sworn it was mentioned somewhere.  When I saw it, I thought it made sense because Sanae is Suwaka's descendant and yet seems to come from a mortal line (well, it'd seem kinda silly if Sanae came from a long line of immortal gods since then we'd have a truckton of immortal gods related to Sanae running around), so I always thought Suwako just gave birth while a human and before becoming a god (although Suwako must have had her powers then, still, since Sanae inherited them).

I could be wrong in this.  My knowledge of Japanese deities and their prorecreation isn't that strong, but I thought they only gave birth to other gods  (Sanae's claim to being a "living god" being something else, entirely).

Does anyone know where it's finally revealed to Sanae herself that she's Suwako's descendant?  According to her wikia page, she finds out in Subteranean Animism but I don't see it.

To be honest, I haven't done that much analysis on Suwako/Kanako/Sanae yet.  My research was mostly focused on Yukari and later a few other things.  So I could get quite a few things wrong about Suwako here and there.




(getting back to the prior subject, after looking at Yukari's ending in SWR again, I'm slightly more certain than before that she's trying to become a god now.  But I'm not sure how much we're allowed to talk about endings here)

Out-of date reply:

if Maribel=Yukari is true, i'll be sad. mostly because i love the idea of Yukari fucking around with humans' dreams.

Akyu in Perfect Memento does speculate that Yukari has the power to do this.  (and that Yukari can even enter stories... the latter if true probably helps a truckton with controlling Gensokyo's history and thus reality)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 05:13:01 PM by Tiamat »

OkashiiKisei

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Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2010, 05:32:46 PM »

Hmm... that's odd.  I could have sworn it was mentioned somewhere.  When I saw it, I thought it made sense because Sanae is Suwaka's descendant and yet seems to come from a mortal line (well, it'd seem kinda silly if Sanae came from a long line of immortal gods since then we'd have a truckton of immortal gods related to Sanae running around), so I always thought Suwako just gave birth while a human and before becoming a god (although Suwako must have had her powers then, still, since Sanae inherited them).

I could be wrong in this.  My knowledge of Japanese deities and their prorecreation isn't that strong, but I thought they only gave birth to other gods  (Sanae's claim to being a "living god" being something else, entirely).

Does anyone know where it's finally revealed to Sanae herself that she's Suwako's descendant?  According to her wikia page, she finds out in Subteranean Animalism but I don't see it.

To be honest, I haven't done that much analysis on Suwako/Kanako/Sanae yet.  My research was mostly focused on Yukari and later a few other things.  So I could get quite a few things wrong about Suwako here and there.


(getting back to the prior subject, after looking at Yukari's ending in SWR again, I'm slightly more certain than before that she's trying to become a god now.  But I'm not sure how much we're allowed to talk about endings here)


You can talk about endings if you use spoiler tags. Give a bit of warning that ending details are coming up, and put said details in spoiler tags. You won't get in any trouble if you do that.

And regarding Suwako and Sanae: ever heard of Demi-Gods? The result of mortals and Gods procreating? Greek mythology is filled to the brim with them. I'm pretty sure Japanese Gods can birth demi-gods too. Besides, if the rules of faith-gods apply to the whole world, then Greek Gods and Japanese Faith Gods wouldn't be all that different. I think Sanae is just the result of Suwako having intercourse with a human. And I'm pretty sure the games and backstories made it pretty clear that Faith Gods can't turn into humans and vice-versa (at least in their life times. I think the soul of a human can become a Faith God. So they first need to die before they can ascend. This is pure speculation though). Faith Gods are born out of the believe and faith of man, and disappear again if no one believes in them anymore. If man makes up a God or is in dire need of one, the faith that is emitted by the human(s) creates a God. If that is the case, it is impossible that Suwako was once a human, unless she reincarnated in one (like I described earlier in my theory). And even then, Suwako could not have possibly passed down her power to her heritsge if she was a human before becoming a God. A Living God is in fact a Demi-God. They are the result of man and Gods having intercourse, and have the might of a God but the mortality of a man. I believe Demi-Gods could possibly ascend into the form of true Faith God when he/she meets certain requirements. I think they don't need to die first before they can become a full-fledged Faith God.

(I'm using the term 'Faith God' for Gods that need faith to exist, like Suwako, Kanako, the Aki Sisters and Hina. I use this term to differentiate them from 'True Gods' or 'Infinite Beings' as I call them. These are heavenly beings that can keep existing without faith and govern the fabric of reality. Examples of this include Shikieiki and the Yamas, Komachi and the Shinigami, Shinki and Dragon God. You could basically them 'Okami', while Suwako/Kanako etc. are merely 'Kami'. They are also VASTLY more powerful than a youkai or Faith God can ever hope to be. After all, Yukari fears Shikieiki, Komachi can kick quite some ass and Shinki created her own, entire world filled with life. Dragon God may or may not be THE God. They are clearly far more powerful than all the other races (with Celestials being the runner-ups). That is why I make a distinction between the two. Yukari clearly wants to become an Infinite Being, not a Faith God, for Faith Gods can disappear.)

PT8Sceptile

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Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2010, 06:36:58 PM »
There's a lot of incredibly convincing theories and mindblowing connections being thrown around here. This conversation is just so interesting, that I just have to chip in with my own piece of speculation/wild guesswork/whatever that I came upon while reading this.

Someone mentioned earlier that Toyohime could be an alternate dimension Yukari or something like the moon counterpart of Yukari. However, with all this Maribel = Yukari speculation flying around I just had to take a look at another scenario: Toyohime is actually Yukari too.

(Keep in mind that I haven't read the books itself, I'm just going by Toyohime's wiki entry, my previous information from the games and points I have picked from this conversation).

Okay, what actually suggests that a theory like this is true:

- Toyohime and Yukari resemble each other to the point that Toyohime could be called an alternate dimension Yukari. Most importantly both have Border manipulation Powers, and both use a fan as a weapon.
- If indeed Yukari = Maribel, then highly likely Yukari has indeed travelled back in time, which suggests that she has the potential to learn time travelling. Since Maribel's abilities also seemingly grew over time, if we assume Maribel's ability to see borders grew into Yukari's ability, nothing says that Yukari's can't grow any more. Maribel could have at first used the ability by accident/with the help of someone, and Yukari would have learnt to use it consciously only much later. This could possibly intervene with the "Yukari trying to ascend into godhood" -theory.
- Then: If Yukari could finally travel through time, what would she do with her ability? One thing that spurs into mind is that she would travel to the moon before the "border trap" mentioned in the discussion was set and complete her invasion. Of course, there are several possibilities what would happen after that: Maybe she defeats the lunarians and becomes their leader. Maybe, in fact, (even if this is possibly going a bit too far) she could end up on an empty moon and realize: "Oh crap, there never were any lunarians here initially. Now, in order to keep the Gensokyo I'm in just as I made it to be, I have to create a civilization here, set up the border trap, advance the technology of this place a ton and finally beat myself when I try to land the invasion here". Yukari had knowledge from the future, so she could possibly create quite advanced-technology, and the inhabitant problem could be solved by simply gapping some people there (Perfect Memento classifies lunarians as humans, so they could possibly have originated from ordinary humans). Also, extending oh this (although this is going quite far already) if Yukari led the Youkai to the moon in order to make them more passive, she could have planned it all along (ie, "Lead them to moon where a more powerful civilization, created by me when I unlock my time-travelling powers completely, awaits to crush them"). Although the possibility of Yukari just beating them up and deciding to reside there is just as possible.

Toyohime is a lunarian and Yukari is a youkai. However, if indeed Yukari=Maribel, Yukari has once been a human, and therefore could possibly become one again (remember, Perfect Memento classifies Lunarians as humans. See the Lunarian page in Touhou Wiki for confirmation).

This is a highly unlike guess, but the idea of Yukari beating herself up in the moon is just too intriguing to pass. Feel free to tear my theory open with superior knowledge of the books or support it and possibly expand on it.

Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2010, 06:40:46 PM »
There's a lot of incredibly convincing theories and mindblowing connections being thrown around here. This conversation is just so interesting, that I just have to chip in with my own piece of speculation/wild guesswork/whatever that I came upon while reading this.

Someone mentioned earlier that Toyohime could be an alternate dimension Yukari or something like the moon counterpart of Yukari. However, with all this Maribel = Yukari speculation flying around I just had to take a look at another scenario: Toyohime is actually Yukari too.

(Keep in mind that I haven't read the books itself, I'm just going by Toyohime's wiki entry, my previous information from the games and points I have picked from this conversation).

Okay, what actually suggests that a theory like this is true:

- Toyohime and Yukari resemble each other to the point that Toyohime could be called an alternate dimension Yukari. Most importantly both have Border manipulation Powers, and both use a fan as a weapon.
- If indeed Yukari = Maribel, then highly likely Yukari has indeed travelled back in time, which suggests that she has the potential to learn time travelling. Since Maribel's abilities also seemingly grew over time, if we assume Maribel's ability to see borders grew into Yukari's ability, nothing says that Yukari's can't grow any more. Maribel could have at first used the ability by accident/with the help of someone, and Yukari would have learnt to use it consciously only much later. This could possibly intervene with the "Yukari trying to ascend into godhood" -theory.
- Then: If Yukari could finally travel through time, what would she do with her ability? One thing that spurs into mind is that she would travel to the moon before the "border trap" mentioned in the discussion was set and complete her invasion. Of course, there are several possibilities what would happen after that: Maybe she defeats the lunarians and becomes their leader. Maybe, in fact, (even if this is possibly going a bit too far) she could end up on an empty moon and realize: "Oh crap, there never were any lunarians here initially. Now, in order to keep the Gensokyo I'm in just as I made it to be, I have to create a civilization here, set up the border trap, advance the technology of this place a ton and finally beat myself when I try to land the invasion here". Yukari had knowledge from the future, so she could possibly create quite advanced-technology, and the inhabitant problem could be solved by simply gapping some people there (Perfect Memento classifies lunarians as humans, so they could possibly have originated from ordinary humans). Also, extending oh this (although this is going quite far already) if Yukari led the Youkai to the moon in order to make them more passive, she could have planned it all along (ie, "Lead them to moon where a more powerful civilization, created by me when I unlock my time-travelling powers completely, awaits to crush them"). Although the possibility of Yukari just beating them up and deciding to reside there is just as possible.

Toyohime is a lunarian and Yukari is a youkai. However, if indeed Yukari=Maribel, Yukari has once been a human, and therefore could possibly become one again (remember, Perfect Memento classifies Lunarians as humans. See the Lunarian page in Touhou Wiki for confirmation).

This is a highly unlike guess, but the idea of Yukari beating herself up in the moon is just too intriguing to pass. Feel free to tear my theory open with superior knowledge of the books or support it and possibly expand on it.

I don't have that much time right now to address this.  I'll say that if you forget the specifics of your theory and just say "Toyohime is possibly an alternate universe Maribel/Yukari", there is nothing that I know of which makes that to be impossible (IE, as far as I recall, there's nothing that throws out the idea)

To be honest, although it's wild mass guessing levels of speculation right now, I wouldn't be too surprised if it were true in some way, shape, or form.  Perhaps I'll look into it more when I have more time (although I don't expect to find anything)

You can talk about endings if you use spoiler tags. Give a bit of warning that ending details are coming up, and put said details in spoiler tags. You won't get in any trouble if you do that.

And regarding Suwako and Sanae: ever heard of Demi-Gods? The result of mortals and Gods procreating? Greek mythology is filled to the brim with them. I'm pretty sure Japanese Gods can birth demi-gods too. Besides, if the rules of faith-gods apply to the whole world, then Greek Gods and Japanese Faith Gods wouldn't be all that different. I think Sanae is just the result of Suwako having intercourse with a human. And I'm pretty sure the games and backstories made it pretty clear that Faith Gods can't turn into humans and vice-versa (at least in their life times. I think the soul of a human can become a Faith God. So they first need to die before they can ascend. This is pure speculation though). Faith Gods are born out of the believe and faith of man, and disappear again if no one believes in them anymore. If man makes up a God or is in dire need of one, the faith that is emitted by the human(s) creates a God. If that is the case, it is impossible that Suwako was once a human, unless she reincarnated in one (like I described earlier in my theory). And even then, Suwako could not have possibly passed down her power to her heritsge if she was a human before becoming a God. A Living God is in fact a Demi-God. They are the result of man and Gods having intercourse, and have the might of a God but the mortality of a man. I believe Demi-Gods could possibly ascend into the form of true Faith God when he/she meets certain requirements. I think they don't need to die first before they can become a full-fledged Faith God.

(I'm using the term 'Faith God' for Gods that need faith to exist, like Suwako, Kanako, the Aki Sisters and Hina. I use this term to differentiate them from 'True Gods' or 'Infinite Beings' as I call them. These are heavenly beings that can keep existing without faith and govern the fabric of reality. Examples of this include Shikieiki and the Yamas, Komachi and the Shinigami, Shinki and Dragon God. You could basically them 'Okami', while Suwako/Kanako etc. are merely 'Kami'. They are also VASTLY more powerful than a youkai or Faith God can ever hope to be. After all, Yukari fears Shikieiki, Komachi can kick quite some ass and Shinki created her own, entire world filled with life. Dragon God may or may not be THE God. They are clearly far more powerful than all the other races (with Celestials being the runner-ups). That is why I make a distinction between the two. Yukari clearly wants to become an Infinite Being, not a Faith God, for Faith Gods can disappear.)

Well, like I said, I don't know much about Japanese gods.  Yea, Greek Gods can have demi gods and mortal offspring, but this is Japanese Gods we're talking about.  The two are clearly very VERY different (in like, a hundred+ ways), so I'd hesitate to use Greek Gods as an example in anything.  Maybe Japanese Gods CAN procreate and make demi-gods.  However, if this is true, it will not be because of what Greek Gods do, but because of what Japanese legends say they can do.  As it is, a quick search I did on Japanese Gods didn't reveal any cases of demi-gods from them that I saw, but again, I haven't researched it much, so I imagine if it's true, someone can easily come up with an example (and I would be most grateful if they posted it here)

If no one does it, perhaps I'll look into it soon.  But I'm a bit busy at this moment.

I can confirm one thing as it applies to the Touhouverse, though.  Japanese (and probably Faith, if they aren't one and the same, although I think they are) Gods can originally be human.  That's officially confirmed here:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate:_Chapter_3

"Mizue no Urashimako, a man who had been spirited away by chance. He was entered into the ranks of the gods, and by doing so strengthened people's faith in the land of Hourai - in the lunar capital, and made all of the era's authority figures fear the austere majesty of the land of Hourai. "

Mizue is definately a Japanese God (duh).   I'm not sure whether or not he's a faith god, but faith was apparently a big deal in terms of this god because faith is clearly mentioned in the above passage.

Of course, this doesn't touch upon Suwako's wind powers being passed down to Sanae.  That itself requires a whole lot of... research and/or thought that I don't have time to look into at this moment.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 06:44:01 PM by Tiamat »

OkashiiKisei

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Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2010, 07:28:54 PM »

Well, like I said, I don't know much about Japanese gods.  Yea, Greek Gods can have demi gods and mortal offspring, but this is Japanese Gods we're talking about.  The two are clearly very VERY different (in like, a hundred+ ways), so I'd hesitate to use Greek Gods as an example in anything.  Maybe Japanese Gods CAN procreate and make demi-gods.  However, if this is true, it will not be because of what Greek Gods do, but because of what Japanese legends say they can do.  As it is, a quick search I did on Japanese Gods didn't reveal any cases of demi-gods from them that I saw, but again, I haven't researched it much, so I imagine if it's true, someone can easily come up with an example (and I would be most grateful if they posted it here)

If no one does it, perhaps I'll look into it soon.  But I'm a bit busy at this moment.

I can confirm one thing as it applies to the Touhouverse, though.  Japanese (and probably Faith, if they aren't one and the same, although I think they are) Gods can originally be human.  That's officially confirmed here:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate:_Chapter_3

"Mizue no Urashimako, a man who had been spirited away by chance. He was entered into the ranks of the gods, and by doing so strengthened people's faith in the land of Hourai - in the lunar capital, and made all of the era's authority figures fear the austere majesty of the land of Hourai. "

Mizue is definately a Japanese God (duh).   I'm not sure whether or not he's a faith god, but faith was apparently a big deal in terms of this god because faith is clearly mentioned in the above passage.

If we take Touhou logic then almost all religions have Faith Gods, and should follow the same rules. So if we take those rules, then Greek Gods = Japanese Gods. I don't see why a Japanese God would be incapable of delivering Demi-Gods. And I think Sanae's background story and ancestry pretty much confirm she is a Demi-Goddess and her ancestor was birthed by Suwako with the father being a normal human. Otherwise Sanae would not have been half human. And Sanae couldn't have her semi-divine powers if her ancestor got birthed before Suwako became a Goddess. Either that, or Suwako became a Goddess while pregnant. An alternative is that Suwako placed a blessing on a mortal woman, so that the woman would birth Sanae's ancestor. Because it is birthed by a human and not by God (but still 'fertilized' by a God) the result is more likely to be a Demi-God. It isn't explicitly stated that Suwako birthed the child herself, after all. And Gods tend to have strange fetishes, so maybe she turned into a guy for a moment to have intercourse with the woman. I mean, it would be strange if a lowly human ever got the chance to have intercourse with his Goddess. This man would need to be an amazing hero or something like that to woo Suwako. It is far more likely that Suwako herself decided to have some fun with her own subjects. She's a nut job after all.

And regarding Misue, that line only states he strengthened the faith of the land, not that he took it for himself. He might have strengthened it for other Faith Gods, but he himself has no need for it because he is an Infinite Being. Although, the Dragon God is stated to be able to get even more power from faith, despite not living off of faith. Maybe Mizue got power boosts from the faith, but he didn't need it to survive. He is still an Infinite Being. I can find no source that Suwako was ever human. Faith Gods are made by the faith and imagination of man. As far as I'm concerned, only Demi-Gods could ascend into Faith Gods, not normal humans. Faith Gods aren't made of flesh-and-blood like Infinite Beings. Faith Gods are walking piles of Faith Energy, and thus I cannot imagine that something made out of belief could have ever been human. I do believe that souls of humans can be used as a 'blue print' to create a Faith God, but then you can't become one when you are still alive. You need to die first. If people have large amounts of faith in someone, then that person will become a Faith God upon death. There are many Gods from Greek, Japanese and Egyptian mythology that became Gods upon death. These people were usually heroes or royals, so they had lots of faith in their life already. They could thus ascend to Faith Gods. Even Jesus Christ can be seen as a Faith God: upon death he came back to life and ascended to the form of a Faith God.
If Suwako was once a human, then she would have needed to die before she could ascend. And before that she would need to be a hero, a royal or a famous priestess. If she birthed a child when she was alive, then that child would not inherit divine powers, and I doubt a Faith God can turn someone else into a Faith God whenever they want to. And even if she could, why would she only go halfway? Why not into a complete Faith God? The divine power is in Sanae's genetic code, so you can't say Sanae is a Demi-God because Suwako gave her ancestor some power while she was serving Suwako. That power would not have been passed opver, since it was only a temporary buff that needed to be maintained by Suwako. The power must have been passed over genetically.

I think ZUN made it pretty clear Sanae is a Demi-God and that Suwako had intercourse with a mortal man/blessed a mortal woman. And look at it from another way: Gods are born from faith. They are born from man's belief. If two Faith Gods had intercourse a new Faith God wouldn't be born since people have no belief in that divine child. The humans need to think up a God first before one can be born again, and most of the time these new gods just 'poof' into existence, not birthed by other Gods. If a God had intercourse with a human a half-breed would be born that didn't need faith, and thus be able to exist and be born. It will then have to ascend into a complete Faith God.

Also: These are ZUN's games. He can decide whether Gods can birth Demi-Gods or not. Based on the sources we have, he has decided that they can. After all, real religions don't say that their God would disappear if no one gave it faith. That is something made up by ZUN to put a limiter on Faith Gods. You can't really base it on Japanese mythology since ZUN keeps putting his own twist on things! Japanese mythology might not have any cases of Demi-Gods, but ZUN can put them in anyway since it is his world! He's also has quite some knowledge of Western mythology, so he may have implemented Greek god characteristics in his Faith Gods.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 07:33:58 PM by OkashiiKisei »

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Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2010, 08:27:37 PM »
Of course, this doesn't touch upon Suwako's wind powers being passed down to Sanae.  That itself requires a whole lot of... research and/or thought that I don't have time to look into at this moment.

Kanako is the Wind Goddess, while Suwako is an Earth and Curse Goddess.
I doubt Sanae inherited the wind powers from Suwako through birth or anything like that. It's more so, that she inherited the ability to use Suwakos and Kanakos Powers because of her family.
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Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #96 on: April 19, 2010, 04:31:34 AM »
Quote
Kanako is the Wind Goddess, while Suwako is an Earth and Curse Goddess.
I doubt Sanae inherited the wind powers from Suwako through birth or anything like that. It's more so, that she inherited the ability to use Suwakos and Kanakos Powers because of her family.

Oh, I see.  It says Kanako is called the god of the mountain while she really is the god of wind and rain.  My mind mixed it up and thought it the other way around for a bit.  And you're right.  When I look at it, the exact wording is that Sanae inherited the power to perform miracles, which is general enough that it's most likely what you're saying.

If we take Touhou logic then almost all religions have Faith Gods, and should follow the same rules. So if we take those rules, then Greek Gods = Japanese Gods. I don't see why a Japanese God would be incapable of delivering Demi-Gods. And I think Sanae's background story and ancestry pretty much confirm she is a Demi-Goddess and her ancestor was birthed by Suwako with the father being a normal human. Otherwise Sanae would not have been half human. And Sanae couldn't have her semi-divine powers if her ancestor got birthed before Suwako became a Goddess. Either that, or Suwako became a Goddess while pregnant. An alternative is that Suwako placed a blessing on a mortal woman, so that the woman would birth Sanae's ancestor. Because it is birthed by a human and not by God (but still 'fertilized' by a God) the result is more likely to be a Demi-God. It isn't explicitly stated that Suwako birthed the child herself, after all. And Gods tend to have strange fetishes, so maybe she turned into a guy for a moment to have intercourse with the woman. I mean, it would be strange if a lowly human ever got the chance to have intercourse with his Goddess. This man would need to be an amazing hero or something like that to woo Suwako. It is far more likely that Suwako herself decided to have some fun with her own subjects. She's a nut job after all.

And regarding Misue, that line only states he strengthened the faith of the land, not that he took it for himself. He might have strengthened it for other Faith Gods, but he himself has no need for it because he is an Infinite Being. Although, the Dragon God is stated to be able to get even more power from faith, despite not living off of faith. Maybe Mizue got power boosts from the faith, but he didn't need it to survive. He is still an Infinite Being. I can find no source that Suwako was ever human. Faith Gods are made by the faith and imagination of man. As far as I'm concerned, only Demi-Gods could ascend into Faith Gods, not normal humans. Faith Gods aren't made of flesh-and-blood like Infinite Beings. Faith Gods are walking piles of Faith Energy, and thus I cannot imagine that something made out of belief could have ever been human. I do believe that souls of humans can be used as a 'blue print' to create a Faith God, but then you can't become one when you are still alive. You need to die first. If people have large amounts of faith in someone, then that person will become a Faith God upon death. There are many Gods from Greek, Japanese and Egyptian mythology that became Gods upon death. These people were usually heroes or royals, so they had lots of faith in their life already. They could thus ascend to Faith Gods. Even Jesus Christ can be seen as a Faith God: upon death he came back to life and ascended to the form of a Faith God.
If Suwako was once a human, then she would have needed to die before she could ascend. And before that she would need to be a hero, a royal or a famous priestess. If she birthed a child when she was alive, then that child would not inherit divine powers, and I doubt a Faith God can turn someone else into a Faith God whenever they want to. And even if she could, why would she only go halfway? Why not into a complete Faith God? The divine power is in Sanae's genetic code, so you can't say Sanae is a Demi-God because Suwako gave her ancestor some power while she was serving Suwako. That power would not have been passed opver, since it was only a temporary buff that needed to be maintained by Suwako. The power must have been passed over genetically.

I think ZUN made it pretty clear Sanae is a Demi-God and that Suwako had intercourse with a mortal man/blessed a mortal woman. And look at it from another way: Gods are born from faith. They are born from man's belief. If two Faith Gods had intercourse a new Faith God wouldn't be born since people have no belief in that divine child. The humans need to think up a God first before one can be born again, and most of the time these new gods just 'poof' into existence, not birthed by other Gods. If a God had intercourse with a human a half-breed would be born that didn't need faith, and thus be able to exist and be born. It will then have to ascend into a complete Faith God.

Also: These are ZUN's games. He can decide whether Gods can birth Demi-Gods or not. Based on the sources we have, he has decided that they can. After all, real religions don't say that their God would disappear if no one gave it faith. That is something made up by ZUN to put a limiter on Faith Gods. You can't really base it on Japanese mythology since ZUN keeps putting his own twist on things! Japanese mythology might not have any cases of Demi-Gods, but ZUN can put them in anyway since it is his world! He's also has quite some knowledge of Western mythology, so he may have implemented Greek god characteristics in his Faith Gods.

Honestly, I don't think ZUN made any of that clear at all.  Your interpretation of what ZUN is saying is completely different from mine, right down to what Touhou logic is (your touhou logic is that Japense should be like Greek Gods because all religions are one and the same.  My Touhou logic, however, is that all legends are true within the region of their birth, and thus that Greek Gods and Japanese Gods are two different species.  Either way, neither of our logic can be proven to be true and official because ZUN never had a Greek God show up in the Touhou verse.  The closest proof we can find is Remilia being modelled after a Western vampire concept, but that one seems to support my Touhou logic slightly more than your's, as Remilia's traits are clearly different and separate from all other youkai traits, to the point where Akyu points out that the combination makes vampires quite unique from other youkai)

As for Mizue, maybe I'll look more into him later (it'll help figure out the specifics of if Yukari really is trying to become a god or not) but my recollection of what I saw doesn't really match your's.  Or at least, I don't see where a lot of the stuff you actually stated is confirmed anywhere in the text.  You'll have to give some quotes to back up what you're saying before you claim it as evidence.  Normally I'd look into such things myself, but this is so off-topic now that I'll leave that to you to prove with actual quotes from ZUN's writing, because I have enough things to post about while staying on topic as it is.

As for ZUN possibly putting a twist on things so that shinto gods can give birth, now you're merely arguing speculative possibilities with no evidence (circumstantial or otherwise) that that's actually the case for this specific topic (well, actually, a lot of this was you arguing possibilities, but whatever), and I've already stated that I'm not 100% certain.  So arguing that it's possible I'm wrong when I stated I'm not sure I'm right is kinda pointless.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 07:15:47 AM by Tiamat »

Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2010, 06:37:47 AM »
Argh, correction to something I previously said.  Suika's win quote to Yukari about Nirvana was actually a win quote to Yuyuko, not Yukari.  When I'm really sleepy at night, eye sight becomes blurry and the two names look the same.  That said, I still personally feel the same way about Yukari's current goals after re-viewing her SWR ending.

The End of Yukari's SWR Ending:

Spoiler:
Each ending ends with a cliffhanger, and Yukari's is one of the few that don't get resolved within the game.  By the end,  for Yukari's cliffhanger, Reimu wonders if she should trust Suika's rebuilding but  basically admits that maybe the shrine transferring deities every once in a while isn't necessarily a bad thing, anyways.  Which could be foreshadowing to...

Then again, Yukari seems to be saying to Suika in her win quote to Suika in Hisou Tensokou that she thinks Suika would be a better god than those "clumsy gods".  Maybe that means something, or maybe it doesn't.

"i are quite impressive, and quite popular.
Have you perhaps gathered more faith than the clumsy gods? " ~Yukari to Suika, Hisou Tensokou

Of course, as with all future plot speculation, I can not say for certain that I'm right.

...alright, what can I say?  I'm a glutton for punishment, which I suppose is partially why I made this thread in the first place.   So... my findings on whether or not Suwako could/should/would have been a human before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami

As we all know, a lot of the Touhouverse is heavily based on Shinto stories/whatever.  The main protagonist, Reimu, is a Shinto shrine maiden, for crying out loud, and even the entrance to the Netherworld that Maribel saw was a shinto gate.  Sanae, too, is obviously a shinto shrine maiden.  As you can clearly see in the link, both gods that are the deified personifications of things such as the wind (of which Kanako obviously is) and humans that become deified enough to be gods (like Mizue) all fall under the same category of shinto god (Kami).  Thus, logically speaking, they PROBABLY fall that way within the Touhouverse, too.  ZUN isn't forced to abide by what the legends say exactly, but it's very clear that he bases things heavily after them when he can, so I guess you can say that if you had to bet on one thing (that Mizue and Kanako are the same type of god, which matches Shinto belief) or the other (that they're two different types of god), odds lean towards the former than the latter.  Of course, we don't have any 100% confirmation here, so in the end, there can't be any clear winner in this debate, but I think I'll stick with the odds for now.

Anyways, fortunately, there is one thing that certainly IS clear.  Sanae is officially a living god NOT because she's a demi-god and NOT because she's Suwako's descendant (well, not directly because of it), but simply because people had so much faith in her that she became deified.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Sanae

"In addition, as keepers of secrets, they began to accrue faith and be treated as gods, even though they were humans. They became living gods. " ~Sanae's MoF profile

So basically, Sanae BECAME a "living god" because of faith in her.  She wasn't born as one.

(although as it is, "living god" seems to be more just a figure of speech since Sanae continues to be referred to as a human in most other cases)

Sanae:Today, you won't be getting away!
I may be only human, but nevertheless, I'll have you regard my convictions!


Suwako: But Sanaeee,
you're not a human, you're a living god, a miracle-worker...


Sanae:  All the better, then.
I can stand equally with you!


Sadly, there's a decent chance something is being lost in the translation here, but I'm pretty sure Suwako is sarcastically mocking Sanae here with "Only human?  Everyone calls you a living god, remember?" (and Sanae of course just runs with it).  By itself, the conversation could have multiple interpretations, but at the very end of everything, Suwako taunts Sanae with this:

Suwako:  Well, then! Awe me, creator of these lands,
with your marvelous, god-like miracles!


Considering that it's Suwako herself that's actually been a creator of lands of sorts (in MoF, she tells both Marisa and Reimu, "Simply admirable for a human to defeat a god who's built up a country by herself. ") and that she's saying Sanae's miracles aren't god miracles but are merely god-like, she's basically just saying that Sanae's "living god" status means nothing (of course, something like this naturally comes with the subtext that if Sanae really wants to be a real god, she's going to have to prove herself.  Suwako WANTS Sanae to get stronger, after all)

Side note: Misue too was a living god for a bit according to Cage in Runegate Chapter 3, but stopped being one after he... er, well, stopped living (I mean, he died.  Obviously).  After that, he became deified, which is pretty much how a human becomes a kami according to the wikipedia article.

Remilia seems to do the same type of mockery that Suwako is doing to Sanae, too, except more explicitly and without the "Prove it!" subtext.

"Heh, so only causing wind to blow makes you a god?" ~Remilia's Hisoutenko win quote to Sanae

And this quote from Hatate in Double Spoiler calls Sanae a human.

"She's the new miko on the mountain. She's a human but seems like a god.
I wonder what's the difference between a god and human. The taste of their meat?" ~Hatate

...how confusing.  I imagine something's just lost in the translation when it comes to all of this.

Still, because Sanae is only a living god thanks to people's faith in her, it's arguable that her miracle powers by themselves aren't god-based at all (and thus, quite possible for her to inherit them from a human Suwako.  The other abilities from Suwako that she needs to actually borrow from Suwako and Kanako to create those miracles, however, are truly god-ish, but using them via the miracles themselves is merely "god-like." )

However, I only said it's arguable.  Not 100% certain.

"The ancestors of a particular family can also be worshipped as kami. In this sense, these kami were worshipped not because of their godly powers, but because of a distinct quality or value. These kami were regional and many shrines (hokora) have been built in their honour. In many cases, people who once lived can thus be deified as gods; an example of this is Tenjin, who was Sugawara no Michizane (845-903) in life.
" ~Wikipedia on Shinto Gods, Kami

While researching this, I also came across a quote which might have relevance to the touhou logic thing.

"All mythological creatures of the Japanese cultural tradition, of the Buddhistic tradition, Christian God, Hindu gods, Islamic Allah, various angels and demons of all faiths among others are considered Kami for the purpose of Shinto faith." ~Wikipedia article on Shinto


Note, however, that while all the above are considered Kami, "Greek Gods" were not included.  On the other hand, if we assume this wikipedia statement to be true at its most literal form, that would mean all Youkai are gods, too, and that's just silly and wrong.

Still, this quote from Suwako seems to imply that even a human made into a god by faith is the same type of god as Suwako.  Otherwise, she would have differentiated it somehow (in the quote's case, she's talking about how a bat can become a god)

"There also exist people who believe in bats as good omens.
However even with such trivial amounts of faith, one could become a god, right?"  ~Suwako's win quote to Remilia in Hisou

I did stumble across this win quote from Komachi to Suwako that implies at least Komachi thinks Suwako (and Kanako) were human once, since they had to transcend the cycle of rebirth.  Either that or gods too are subject to the cycle of rebirth and need to reach Nirvana, themselves, but that sounds kinda... odd.  Maybe something's being lost in the translation here.

"In the stages of life and rebirth, both of you can be seen as Gods who've completely transcended the cycle of suffering. Is that right? " ~Komachi to Suwako

And this is the line that probably led to me accidentally thinking Suwako was officially confirmed to be a human earlier in the first place.  I must have been too sleep deprived at the time (since it's a win quote to Sanae, not Suwako)

"You should be aware that before you were a god, you were a mere human. " ~Tenshi to Sanae, Hisou Tensoko

Finally, in the end, after lots of searching, I couldn't find any case of a shinto god giving birth to a mortal with the exception of the Imperial Family claiming they were descended from the highest god, Ameraterasu (which was so the emperor could/would be worshipped as a god, himself).  However, in 1945 (World War II's result), the emperor disavowed all divine heritage and polytheistic heritage worship was no longer permitted.  That is the only case I could find of mortal ancestry from a god (and I'm not sure that even counts, since the emperor claimed to be a god, not a mortal.  ...and then the emperor disavowed deity heritage after WWII, and ZUN is clearly aware of WWII's ending because at least one Touhou win quote was a reference to Japan's military strategy after WWII.  So... hell if I know how that would apply to the Touhouverse).  Also, the Emperor obviously didn't inherit any of Ameratsu's sun powers whatsoever.

...I didn't search through every Japanese God though.  Because good grief, there's a truckton of them O_o

My final verdict:  ....honestly, at this point I don't care anymore.  There isn't enough actual in-game confirmation of various things to even begin to come to a conclusion that isn't speculation.  And that includes refuting the possiblity of Suwaka ever being human in the first place.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 07:34:39 AM by Tiamat »

G0mine

Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2010, 11:22:18 AM »
Just because I'm a huge SDM/Koumakan fanboy, I'd like to point this out:

Remilia Scarlet is not the one who instigated the Vampire Incident.

I quote from Reimu's PMiSS:

"It was into this situation that a powerful youkai from outside, a vampire, appeared, and quickly amassed a great number of subordinates"

"She was eventually able to disperse this rebellion by defeating the powerful vampire and establishing a contract of behavior prohibiting various actions"


We cannot tell if this vampire is Remilia or not when it is mentioned here, but a couple of things are certain. That this vampire incident happened before the events in EoSD, and Reimu has certainly fought and subdued this fore-mentioned vampire.

However, it becomes clear that Remilia is not that same vampire because of Reimu's EoSD dialogue with Remilia, since Reimu comments:

"Are you actually strong?

... You're not just small fry, huh."


This indicates that Reimu had never fought Remilia before prior to the Scarlet Mist incident, with or without the spell card rules.
To further this argument, as stated in the timeline of Gensokyo's historical events, Akyuu believes that Remilia entered Gensokyo after the Vampire incident. I would like to think that Akyuu would not have included that little detail if she knew that Remilia was the one who was responsible for the Vampire Incident as well.

Posting this to keep the Fatehax>all debates open.  :colonveeplusalpha: :colonveeplusalpha: :colonveeplusalpha:
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 11:28:56 AM by G0mine »

OkashiiKisei

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Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2010, 02:38:06 PM »

Side note: Misue too was a living god for a bit according to Cage in Runegate Chapter 3, but stopped being one after he... er, well, stopped living (I mean, he died.  Obviously).  After that, he became deified, which is pretty much how a human becomes a kami according to the wikipedia article.


So I was right on that part. One becomes a Faith God after death, not during life. This apparently only applies to Living Gods though, and I was wrong that Living Gods and Demi-Gods are the same thing. Living God is apparently the stage between human and Faith God. And now that I think about it, it might be more logical for a human to be capable of becoming a Faith God than an Infinite Being. Infinite Beings are at the very top, and govern the workings of the universe/CREATED the universe. It would be odd if a lowly human could immediately ascend to Infinite Being. Yamas are not really Gods either. According to their Perfect Memento profile, most of the Lesser Yama (including Shikieiki) are ghosts that got promoted to Yama. That way the Greater Yama (of which there are only ten) didn't have to work that much. The Greater Yama are closer to being actual True Gods.
Anyway, this shows that Suwako might have been human once and that she birthed a child before she died and became a God. Since Suwako obtained lots of faith in her lifetime she may have been a miko herself. Sanae probably inherited Suwako's miko skills and got her miracle powers from the faith she (Sanae) obtained herself, making her a Living God. It is likely Sanae will become a Faith God upon death.


"All mythological creatures of the Japanese cultural tradition, of the Buddhistic tradition, Christian God, Hindu gods, Islamic Allah, various angels and demons of all faiths among others are considered Kami for the purpose of Shinto faith." ~Wikipedia article on Shinto


Note, however, that while all the above are considered Kami, "Greek Gods" were not included.  On the other hand, if we assume this wikipedia statement to be true at its most literal form, that would mean all Youkai are gods, too, and that's just silly and wrong.


Now you're just being nitpicky. That statement obviously applies to ALL mythologies and religions. Saying that something doesn't apply to that rule because it isn't directly mentioned, DESPITE the rule being universal, is just downright ignorant and a shameless attempt at conserving your own theories. The rule says ALL FAITHS AMONG OTHERS, so that includes Greek mythology!
This rule clearly states that all divinities follow Shinto rules. Thus, Greek Gods ARE the same as Kami. And this rule isn't ridiculous at all. Remember, youkai are all beings that have a powerlevel between that of a human and a God. The rule states VARIOUS angels and demons are Kami, not all. Well, according to the Bible, most demons and angels live in realms beyond a human's understanding, and possess reality warping powers far greater than any of the Faith Gods we've encountered so far. In fact, according to the Bible, the strongest being next to God is SATAN, THE DEVIL. Satan was both an angel and a demon, and according to Christianity he's the greatest force in existence next to God. Also, Seraphim, the highest rank of angels, are also known to have reality warping powers that rival God. That sounds pretty freaking Godlike to me! Thus, the rule STILL applies. However, like I said, the rule only states MOST angels and demons, so the lesser demons Shinki commands don't fall into this category. Those demons are youkai. There is a clear distinction. We can assume that lesser, mortal mythological creatures are considered youkai by Shinto faith. Thus, Greek Gods are still considered Kami, and the possibility off Demi Gods still exists.
Perhaps Greek Gods were significantly weaker than Japanese Gods (Japanese Gods did a lot more impressive things than the Greek Gods), so perhaps, due to lower power, Greek Gods could only birth full-fledged Gods with each other, not with humans. Japanese Gods could birth complete Gods with any kind of creature due to them being more powerful.

Another possibility is the BECAUSE the Greeks and Romans believed Gods could birth Demi-Gods that the Greek/Roman Gods were capable of doing that. Because the Japanese believed that Gods could only birth complete Gods the Japanese Gods were capable of only that. After all, the very foundation of magic and divinities is based on belief. The faith of man may decide what a God can do and cannot, just like how the faith decides how the Gods look like and what part of nature they govern.

Yet another possibility is the notion that these 'Demi-Gods' may have been actual Gods, but since they weren't as powerful as the real deal yet they were considered Demi-Gods by humans. They first had to prove their power and capabilities to win over the peoples hearts, thus obtaining more and more faith. Eventually, they would become powerful enough to be considered real Gods (despite the fact they were Gods all along). So your theory regarding Suwako and Sanae doesn't need to be considered wrong yet.


I did stumble across this win quote from Komachi to Suwako that implies at least Komachi thinks Suwako (and Kanako) were human once, since they had to transcend the cycle of rebirth.  Either that or gods too are subject to the cycle of rebirth and need to reach Nirvana, themselves, but that sounds kinda... odd.  Maybe something's being lost in the translation here.

"In the stages of life and rebirth, both of you can be seen as Gods who've completely transcended the cycle of suffering. Is that right? " ~Komachi to Suwako

And this is the line that probably led to me accidentally thinking Suwako was officially confirmed to be a human earlier in the first place.  I must have been too sleep deprived at the time (since it's a win quote to Sanae, not Suwako)

"You should be aware that before you were a god, you were a mere human. " ~Tenshi to Sanae, Hisou Tensoko


So there is still no official confirmation that Suwako was ever human. However, your other notions have made me consider the possibility of Suwako's once mortal life. For the rest of the discussion let us assume Suwako was once mortal. That still doesn't mean that is the truth though, and time will tell if Suwako was ever mortal.

And I don't think it is odd at all that Gods can reach Nirvana themselves. After all, if we take the Fsith Gods we've had up till now, the Faith Gods seem FAR from omniscient and omnipotent. Reaching nirvana gives one a certain degree of those two abilities. The Faith Gods we know also suffer from many of human's faults and sin quite a lot. They are far from perfect. According to Perfect Memento profile on Celestials, Angels/Celestials are FAR more powerful than all the other characters. Canonically, Tenshi won against all the characters in SWR EXCEPT Yukari. Also consider that Tenshi isn't a real Celestial: she only tagged along with her family when they ascended through their own effort. She never reached nirvana, and thus misses out on a lot of a "real" Celestial's power and discipline. And STILL she can best the bulk of Gensokyo's heroes. That says a lot about a true Celestial's power. Celestials even wipe the floor with elite Shinigami that try to take them to the Yamas. They are clearly far more powerful than Faith Gods. Faith Gods can thus still transpire to become Celestials or even Infinite Beings. Infinite Beings are the very top. Faith Gods can still try to attain a higher form and power. Celestials and Infinite Beings can also never truly die, just like immortals, bit Faith Gods can die when they run out of faith. We can assume Gods are sent back into the cycle of rebirth once it runs out of faith. After all, no sentient being ever vanishes forever. Everything that is sentient has a soul, and can thus return to the cycle of rebirth upon death, including Faith Gods. Faith Gods are far from perfect, and should thus be required to reach nirvana like everyone else to become perfect. It isn't odd at all.

Fightest

  • Fighter than anyone else
Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #100 on: April 19, 2010, 03:13:39 PM »
Read through the OP and follow-up, skimmed through thread, I have to say, a very well-presented demonstration.

However, I am very... uncomfortable with your usage of the word "proof". As it stands, no proof has been presented, but a very large amount of circumstantial evidence combined with extrapolation, albeit the latter being reasonably free of leaps of faith. Furthermore, certain arguments have become circular, where it amounts to "If you assume that Maribel is Yukari, then [this part] strongly shows that Maribel is Yukari."

However, the research put in is very impressive, so your case is still convincing.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
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Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #101 on: April 19, 2010, 03:23:52 PM »
Data point: the Bible does not say that Satan is the second-most powerful, after God.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

OkashiiKisei

  • Still working on the Grimoire
  • It's all about devotion
Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #102 on: April 19, 2010, 04:15:16 PM »
Data point: the Bible does not say that Satan is the second-most powerful, after God.

Yes he is. Various sources tell Lucifer is the mightiest angel, and since angels are second-only to God in Christianity, Lucifer can be considered the mightiest being in Christianity next to God (assuming God is the entirety of the Holy Triad. If Jezus is a separate being, then Jezus and the Holy Spirit are second most powerful). This article is an example of one these sources that state Lucifer is the mightiest angel (look under 'Origins of Fallen Angels Story').

Chaore

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Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #103 on: April 19, 2010, 04:44:32 PM »
And then Michael drop kicks his ass straight to hell.

Strongest my ass.

Tengukami

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Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #104 on: April 19, 2010, 07:40:46 PM »
Yes he is. Various sources tell Lucifer is the mightiest angel, and since angels are second-only to God in Christianity, Lucifer can be considered the mightiest being in Christianity next to God (assuming God is the entirety of the Holy Triad. If Jezus is a separate being, then Jezus and the Holy Spirit are second most powerful). This article is an example of one these sources that state Lucifer is the mightiest angel (look under 'Origins of Fallen Angels Story').

That's nice. However, the Bible never, ever says that Satan is the second-most powerful after God. In fact, some Bible experts have speculated that the tale of Lucifer is actually about a Babylonian king. You'll actually be pressed to find much mention of Satan at all in the Bible. Most of this stuff about the Lucifer story is contrived from ancient Middle Eastern myth, and medieval speculations (much like "the seven deadly sins" do not actually appear in the Bible either). Your link basically says "these two tiny passages from the Bible might be talking about the Lucifer myth". If you bother to read those passages, they are the following:

Quote from: Psalm 82
1 God presides in the great assembly;
       he gives judgment among the "gods":

 2 "How long will you [a] defend the unjust
       and show partiality to the wicked?
       Selah

 3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
       maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.

 4 Rescue the weak and needy;
       deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

 5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
       They walk about in darkness;
       all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

 6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
       you are all sons of the Most High.'

 7 But you will die like mere men;
       you will fall like every other ruler."

 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
       for all the nations are your inheritance.

and

Quote from: Genesis 6:1-4
1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

 2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

 3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

 4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Neither passage tells us anything, really.

The passage most often cited is this:

Quote from: Isaiah 14:3-20
3 On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
       How the oppressor has come to an end!
       How his fury [a] has ended!

 5 The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked,
       the scepter of the rulers,

 6 which in anger struck down peoples
       with unceasing blows,
       and in fury subdued nations
       with relentless aggression.

 7 All the lands are at rest and at peace;
       they break into singing.

 8 Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon
       exult over you and say,
       "Now that you have been laid low,
       no woodsman comes to cut us down."

 9 The grave below is all astir
       to meet you at your coming;
       it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you?
       all those who were leaders in the world;
       it makes them rise from their thrones?
       all those who were kings over the nations.

 10 They will all respond,
       they will say to you,
       "You also have become weak, as we are;
       you have become like us."

 11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
       along with the noise of your harps;
       maggots are spread out beneath you
       and worms cover you.

 12 How you have fallen from heaven,
       O morning star, son of the dawn!
       You have been cast down to the earth,
       you who once laid low the nations!

 13 You said in your heart,
       "I will ascend to heaven;
       I will raise my throne
       above the stars of God;
       I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
       on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
       I will make myself like the Most High."

 15 But you are brought down to the grave,
       to the depths of the pit.

 16 Those who see you stare at you,
       they ponder your fate:
       "Is this the man who shook the earth
       and made kingdoms tremble,

 17 the man who made the world a desert,
       who overthrew its cities
       and would not let his captives go home?"

 18 All the kings of the nations lie in state,
       each in his own tomb.

 19 But you are cast out of your tomb
       like a rejected branch;
       you are covered with the slain,
       with those pierced by the sword,
       those who descend to the stones of the pit.
       Like a corpse trampled underfoot,

 20 you will not join them in burial,
       for you have destroyed your land
       and killed your people.
       The offspring of the wicked
       will never be mentioned again.

Now we're getting somewhere. But, as I said, many scholars now believe this refers to an actual Babylonian king. Besides which, nowhere is it said, "This guy Satan, he's second only to God in terms of sheer power". As I said, this is a medieval trope found nowhere in Scripture. In fact, the article that you wielded with such authority even says itself: "There is only one potential passage referring to the second myth - Isaiah 14:12-15. Most scholars conjecture that this myth was derived from a lost Canaanite myth about a rebellion to overthrow El and Elyon."

Sorry for the derail, but I get tired of this meme getting bandied about so casually.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 07:44:28 PM by ☯Tengukami☯ »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #105 on: April 20, 2010, 01:13:29 AM »
Ah, NOW I remember where I got the idea that Suwako was human.  It was from Silent Sinner in Blue, where Reimu comments that Suwako and Kanako managed to hold onto their physical (or was it "earthly"?) bodies, unlike other shinto gods (who are generally intangible and thus can only appear when summoned through shrine maidens).  I guess my subconscious just assumed that because Suwako and Kanako were stated as still having their physical bodies, I mistakenly (?) read they still had their HUMAN physical bodies.

However, now that I think about it... it's kinda hard for me to figure out any other explanation why they "still have their physical/earthly bodies", since Shinto gods that aren't deified humans are supposed to be intangible beings born from spirits and concepts from the very start (from what I know about Shinto religion, at least).  But... I don't have access to SSiB right now so I could be remembering wrong about what was said in there.

Quote
This indicates that Reimu had never fought Remilia before prior to the Scarlet Mist incident, with or without the spell card rules.
To further this argument, as stated in the timeline of Gensokyo's historical events, Akyuu believes that Remilia entered Gensokyo after the Vampire incident. I would like to think that Akyuu would not have included that little detail if she knew that Remilia was the one who was responsible for the Vampire Incident as well.

Could you point me where Akyuu believes that Remilia entered Gensokyo after the Vampire incident?  I saw that part in the Gensokyo timeline on the wiki too, but that timeline is not something that ZUN himself wrote.  As it is, I've searched all over Perfect Memento and haven't found anything to back up what the wiki editor claims.  Perhaps I missed it, so could you find it for me if you know where it is?

I am aware that Remilia's PM section states the Scarlet Mist incident is what made the Scarlet Devil Mansion's existance known (to humans, specifically).  However, that's only the Scarlet Devil Mansion.  Remilia herself could have been known in Gensokyo (not necessarily by Reimu, which leads into my next question later on in this post) before then (and in fact I have a theory on why ZUN had to specify the Scarlet Devil Mansion specifically for this instead of Remilia.  Personally, I think he's trying to cover up his own plotholes, since it doesn't seem like he started planning all this massive storyline for Touhou out until Perfect Cherry Blossom.  I do plan on expounding on this, but I'd like to confirm whether or not Perfect Memento actually directly states (or has Akyu state) that she thinks Remilia HERSELF came after the Vampire Incident.  With the exception of one line in Reimu's section, everything else I've analyzed about the Vampire Incident indicates it was really a war between Remilia and the youkai, not Reimu, which explains why the Scarlet Mist incident is what made the Mansion itself known to humans specifically, and I'm starting to wonder if that one line that indicates it was Reimu was actually mistranslated.  Again, I have my analysis for this and do plan to post it, but I'd like to see if I can get answers to these questions first)

(If possible, I'd also like to know where that wiki editor got the idea that the SDM came into Gensokyo under auspices other than Remilia's, but for entirely different reasons.  It ties into an epiloptic tree speculation of mine)

Part of the key might lie with this line in Japanese.  Can someone translate this line for me?  I'm wondering if the Wiki is having a mistranslation here.  Because the first character (or last, depending on how you look at it) is supposed to mean "she" according to the wiki, yet it's different from the character used for "she" in other places in the wiki, and also I always found it puzzling that Akyu didn't start using "the shrine maiden" until later on in that section, and instead started that section out with "she".

結局この騒動は、最も力のある妖怪が力業で吸血鬼を叩きのめし、様々な禁止事項を決めた契約を結び、和解した。

(if it doesn't show up correctly on your screen, it's basically the line in Reimu's PM article that's translated as this in the Touhou wiki

"She was eventually able to disperse this rebellion by defeating the powerful vampire and establishing a contract of behavior prohibiting various actions."

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Reimu_Hakurei)

It also contradicts my other findings regarding the vampire incident.  But... I think I'll wait for answers to these questions before I post that, in case something contradicts or is wrong so I can avoid redundancy.

Like I said, I already analyzed the vampire incident and simply didn't post it because I was holding off for if I ever did a Scarlet Devil Mansion topic.  As it is, it looks like I'll have to post it anyways, but I'd like to know where the wiki editor found the section in Perfect Memento that specifically states Remilia came to Gensokyo after the Vampire Incident (and a translation to the above line, if it is different from what the wiki translated it as, would be very nice, too)


Quote
Furthermore, certain arguments have become circular, where it amounts to "If you assume that Maribel is Yukari, then [this part] strongly shows that Maribel is Yukari."

Honestly, my "proof" ended with the spell card post.  I did state that at the end of that post, and that any post from hereon would be more just to show all the other things that could be looked at in a new light once one decided that Maribel was Yukari.  Here, I'll quote myself.

Quote
Well, I hope you enjoyed my ramblings.  I think fact that almost all her spell cards relate to Maribel's experiences prove beyond a doubt that Yukari is Maribel.  At least, I'm convinced 100% that she is.  I hope you are, too!  If not, that's okay, you're still free to believe what you wish.  However, for those of you who are also convinced like me, let me now point out some fun things that I like to think ZUN tossed in, knowing that Yukari is Maribel.  Well, in a bit, perhaps.  Rome wasn't built in a day, you know.  Until my next post, thanks for reading!

So if any arguments about Maribel being Yukari from here on are circular, that would be because I'm no longer trying to argue Maribel is Yukari, but instead now just going by the assumption that she is and pointing out various things that can be looked at in a new light thanks to it.

As for any arguments before that being circular... well, I can only give my apologies.  "Proof" was also possibly too strong a word.  I was originally considering using "Analysis" instead.  In retrospect, I probably should have.  *shrug*
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 01:40:31 AM by Tiamat »

Tengukami

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Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #106 on: April 20, 2010, 01:29:14 AM »
I think this is one of the best threads this board has had in months. It's gone beyond the Maribel = Yukari thing ages ago and into so many other aspects of Gensokyo. Everyone's been chiming in some good stuff here.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Yukari is Maribel: A Proof using official sources
« Reply #107 on: April 20, 2010, 01:35:42 AM »
I was planning on starting separate threads for other aspects of Gensokyo eventually, too.  However, it looks like everything might be better off just being kept to this thread, instead, anyways.

Quote
And I don't think it is odd at all that Gods can reach Nirvana themselves. After all, if we take the Fsith Gods we've had up till now, the Faith Gods seem FAR from omniscient and omnipotent. Reaching nirvana gives one a certain degree of those two abilities. The Faith Gods we know also suffer from many of human's faults and sin quite a lot. They are far from perfect. According to Perfect Memento profile on Celestials, Angels/Celestials are FAR more powerful than all the other characters. Canonically, Tenshi won against all the characters in SWR EXCEPT Yukari. Also consider that Tenshi isn't a real Celestial: she only tagged along with her family when they ascended through their own effort. She never reached nirvana, and thus misses out on a lot of a "real" Celestial's power and discipline. And STILL she can best the bulk of Gensokyo's heroes. That says a lot about a true Celestial's power. Celestials even wipe the floor with elite Shinigami that try to take them to the Yamas. They are clearly far more powerful than Faith Gods. Faith Gods can thus still transpire to become Celestials or even Infinite Beings. Infinite Beings are the very top. Faith Gods can still try to attain a higher form and power. Celestials and Infinite Beings can also never truly die, just like immortals, bit Faith Gods can die when they run out of faith. We can assume Gods are sent back into the cycle of rebirth once it runs out of faith. After all, no sentient being ever vanishes forever. Everything that is sentient has a soul, and can thus return to the cycle of rebirth upon death, including Faith Gods. Faith Gods are far from perfect, and should thus be required to reach nirvana like everyone else to become perfect. It isn't odd at all.

I hope you don't feel like I"m ignoring you.  It's just that a lot of the debate is entering into the realm of speculation that I don't particularly feel very strongly about in the first place anyways.  I am however quoting the above part of your post just to say that you're probably right about that.

As it is, I've finally managed to remember what made me think Suwako was officially once a human in the first place (which is two posts above this one).  In the end, it was never specifically stated but I just misremenbered that it was and misinterpreted/misremembered many other things thanks to that.  As I've indicated before, I haven't really researched or been able to put much thought into Kanae/Suwako/Kanako.  The fact that Suwako and Kanako have a physical body AND that it's specifically brought up in the storyline that Shinto gods aren't normally like that makes me think there probably really is something there.  Alas, like I said, I don't have my SSiB scanlations here at the moment to check.


EDIT:  Assuming I manage to make it through my Vampire Incident analysis in one piece, I currently have two more Yukari Maribel topics to present (again, they're mostly more just for fun than to prove anything, since I feel like I've gone as far as I can go with the Maribel = Yukari argument with the spell cards, and anything beyond that is just either gravy or indigestion, depending on which side of the fense you stand on).

They are:

Others in the Touhouverse who might know Yukari is Maribel (with circumstantial evidence to back it up.  And yea, this is where I'll finally get to Maribel's meeting with Sakuya.  It's either the most awesome thing ever or the biggest pile of bullcrap you've ever seen come from my keyboard)

And

"That guy who drew my avatar apparently came to the same conclusion I did" (Note how... evil Yukari looks in that pic compared to Maribel)  ...well, I was considering something more dramatic like "Loss of Innocence" or "Falling down the slippery slope", but that seems kinda... melodramatic for Touhou.


Um... anyone have any preference?  (or alternatively, anyone want me to just shut my big mouth, I guess)


I have a third which is Yukari's edits in Perfect Memento, but I still have a little research left to do on that one.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 02:00:49 AM by Tiamat »

G0mine

Re: Yukari is Maribel: An analysis using official sources
« Reply #108 on: April 20, 2010, 02:15:21 AM »
Ok so apparently the translators made a mistake.

"結局この騒動は、最も力のある妖怪が力業で吸血鬼を叩きのめし、様々な禁止事項を決めた契約を結び、和解した。 "

The vampire was defeated by youkai who possesed greater power. Not by the miko.

The part where Akyuu believed the Scarlet Devil Mansion appeared after this incident was actually an unsettled disagreement in the Japanese wiki whether the Vampire Incident took place before, within or after the PC-98 games.


Re: Yukari is Maribel: An analysis using official sources
« Reply #109 on: April 20, 2010, 02:21:32 AM »
Ok so apparently the translators made a mistake.

"結局この騒動は、最も力のある妖怪が力業で吸血鬼を叩きのめし、様々な禁止事項を決めた契約を結び、和解した。 "

The vampire was defeated by youkai who possesed greater power. Not by the miko.

The part where Akyuu believed the Scarlet Devil Mansion appeared after this incident was actually an unsettled disagreement in the Japanese wiki whether the Vampire Incident took place before, within or after the PC-98 games.


YES YES YES OH THANK YOU YES

*GIVES BIG HUGS*

Then I was right.  It WAS a war between Youkai and Remilia, and Reimu was not involved.  Thank you so much!  This helps me with LOTS of things that I've found but couldn't be sure about because of that ONE LINE in Perfect Memento that said it was Reimu that resolved things.  THere were soooo many things that I was hesitant to post or talk about thanks to that annoying single line which contradicted everything else I've discovered and found and sheez, it's just nice to know it's wrong.

Re: Yukari is Maribel: An analysis using official sources
« Reply #110 on: April 20, 2010, 05:06:17 AM »
....although wow, there's no point to me posting a vampire incident analysis now, is there?  I mean, with that one annoying line out of the way, everything should be pretty clear now, really.  When I look at what I had written down for the vampire incident, most of it consists of pointing out why that line in Reimu's profile about Reimu resolving it makes no sense whatsoever when you look at every other place the vampire incident is described or brought up in Perfect Memento.  It had gotten to the point where I was wondering if it was a lie that Yukari told to Akyu, but even that made no sense because from what I can tell, Yukari's edits and comments in Perfect Memento are typically marked (the ones I was able to spot, at least)

It's basically what I said earlier.  Remilia pops into Gensokyo with Sakuya and Patchouli, recruits a bunch of subordinates (fairy maids, probably Mei Ling and possibly Koakuma(s)), and goes on a rampage before the youkai take her down.  Yukari never met Sakuya during this (PCB is the first time they meet, not including Maribel Sakuya which I'll go into later blah blah, but Yukari does say to Sakuya "I always wanted to meet someone famous like you" which may or may not be a reference to her at least hearing about Sakuya during the vampire incident), and in the end a devil's contract was established to prevent Remilia from doing it again.  The contract is still in effect today (and is again something I plan on detailing about later), although particularly restrictive aspects of it were loosened up to become the spell card rules later.

Although re-reading the vampire incident did make me realize that apparently "animals" are a part of Gensokyo's power struggle.  That explains a lot about Tewi striking a deal with Eirin to make rabbits more powerful.

Oh well.  One of the best things about the Vampire Incident is that it opens up the possibility for things like this.


Orange:  I'm sick and tired of that stupid shrine maiden beating me up for no reason!  And you stupid other youkai won?t even give me permission to eat her!  Screw you all!  I'm going to go join this vampire AND KICK YOUR ASS.


Orange then joined Remilia, and got a new name from her because Remilia likes renaming her employees (see:  Sakuya Izayoi).  From now on, she is Hong Meiling!  ?then she got her ass kicked.

(interestingly enough, when Reimu meets Mei Ling in EoSD, Mei Ling tries again to avoid a fight by claiming she?s just a normal person, just like Orange did.  And then after Reimu points out that Mei Ling attacked her earlier, Mei Ling complains that Reimu attacked her first?)

(?and then Meiling says she wants to eat Reimu and should have permission to)

It's okay, Meiling.  Someday you'll get your revenge and eat that stupid shrine maiden!  And then Gensokyo will collapse and it?ll be all thanks to yoooou!  Oops.  (or maybe they?ll just get a new shrine maiden.  ?How many was that, now?? ~Aya)


Disclaimer:  Dramatization!  May not have happened!
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 06:21:11 AM by Tiamat »

Re: Yukari is Maribel: An analysis using official sources
« Reply #111 on: April 22, 2010, 02:05:32 AM »
Ran and Yukari.  Also, the hidden multiple meanings ZUN likes to hide in his stories.

Preface:  Personally, I don?t think ZUN will ever directly state most of these secrets about Yukari.  After analyzing a lot of ZUN?s works, I?ve come to the conclusion that ZUN really likes leaving things to you, the reader, to figure out.  Heck, the ending to CoLA Chapter 25 (which is about Yukari) even has Rinnosuke practically daring YOU to find the meanings hidden in names.  In some ways, this could be ZUN telling YOU to find the meaning hidden in his stories (the fact that this takes place at the end of a story about Yukari, means one could extrapolate this to be ZUN telling YOU to find out Yukari?s secrets yourself, instead of him directly stating it for you)

Before I go into Perfect Memento, I?ll point out a rather obvious example in Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red.  ZUN?s never stated WHY Ran became Yukari?s shikigami.  How was Yukari able to get this supposedly wise fox to basically become her SLAVE?  However, hidden in Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red, he makes it pretty clear (and also does a good job of showing how he hides several secret meanings within his story)

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red

Now, first of all, logic suggests you?re supposed to read BAiJ?s articles in order.  That is how one normally reads a book, after all.  Most of the articles are silly joke articles or interesting insights into the world of Gensokyo.  And some of them appear to be there mainly to be philosophical.  The ones relevant to my point about ZUN hiding multiple meanings in his stories (and in this case, Yukari?s? stuff), however, are Yukari?s, Ran?s, and Chen?s.   You?re probably supposed to read them in that order, since that?s the order the book places them in.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Article_and_Interview:_Yukari

At first glance, this article, like most others, seems to be just a joke.  It?s a little dark at first since Yukari is basically saying she sees Ran as a tool instead of an animal, but it ends with ?lol!  Yukari tried to make Aya her shikigami too!?  Heck, most people (including me) probably think Yukari?s joking.  After all, she smiles at Aya and says ?Well, aren?t you a cute one??  It?s all in good fun, right?

?and then the next article you?re supposed to read is Ran?s.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Article_and_Interview:_Ran

This article first seems to be ZUN just having a little enjoyment with mathematical theories at first.  It too seems to be mostly just for fun.  When the interview starts, you?re treated to a comical scene of Aya being confused at Ran?s equations.  Ran then tries to get Aya to be her shikigami, at which Aya again hesitates but finally refuses.  Now the joke apparently is ?This time even Aya was tempted by the offer!?  Hahaha, funny, right?

?is it REALLY?

?If you can't understand, want to give it a shot? Become my shikigami. If you do, I think you'll be able to understand.?

What if Yukari was being serious when she said this?  She?s literally trying to tempt Aya into becoming her slave.  A slave which Yukari just stated earlier wouldn?t even be allowed to defend itself if attacked unless Yukari gave it permission to do so.  And then when you look at Ran?s article, Ran herself actually tries to justify it.

Ran:  When it comes to numbers, equations themselves are shikigami. Just as equations that neither diverge nor converge produce an infinite number of useful solid objects, so do the equations Miss Yukari uses make my power invincible. I therefore act as the equations tell me.

Aya:  So that's how it is. I don't think I could keep making pre-determined actions. It'd be too constricting.

Ran:  Even if you could fly many times faster than you do now? Even if you could become many times stronger?

Aya:  Speed means nothing if it's decided for me. Flying free is what has meaning.

Ran:  Even if you could land many times more scoops?

Aya:  Ngh!

Ran:  ...Do you want me to make you my shikigami?


Now I get the image of a nearly-satanic Yukari walking up to a poor innocent fox and saying ?Sell your soul, will, and your very being to me, and I will give you power beyond your imagination.?   And the fox was tempted into accepting it!  To this day Ran now thinks it?s okay to be nothing more than a tool that?s BEATEN after trying to defend herself from some humans, just because she was never given permission to defend herself!  (and everything else Yukari forces the poor fox to do).  Ran, a sentient living fox, is nothing more than a tool for her master, and she accepts that because she has power, now.

And that is how ZUN takes two articles and dolls them up in the form of a joke, while hiding something VERY dark and serious underneath it.  I don?t know about you, but after I went back to Perfect Memento and re-read this in a more serious light, I wasn?t laughing anymore. 

?well, okay, I guess it?s still funny if you hate Aya.

??alright, I laughed after I typed that.

Anyways, the next article is Chen?s.  This one is much more light-hearted and overall very funny.  Chen?s trying to get her own followers but having a hard time for multiple reasons, and you just get this funny image of a bunch of cats running wild all over the place and poor Chen trying to control them, but failing miserably.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Article_and_Interview:_Chen

First of all, earlier in the article, Aya states this:

Aya:  Certainly, a great number of youkai use animals as their servants. Frankly speaking, even I keep a crow. However, I've never heard of a ghost cat keeping other cats.

And then we get to Chen?s interview, and you get this:

Chen:  Hm, say, how did you tame that crow? It looks like it really likes you.

Aya:  When you're as strong as I am, all you have to do is hold out your hand to it when you first meet it. You can't really expect to have servants without that sort of absolute difference in power. Besides, THIS CROW IS MORE LIKE MY TOOL than my servant.


Oh ZUN, you whacky schemer, you.  ZUN?s managed to take an article that so clearly looks like it?s just there to be a funny joke story, and sneaking in something much more serious which basically says ?By the way, Aya?s not much better than Yukari or Ran.?



Well, hopefully that?s a good example of how ZUN likes to insert hidden themes and meanings into his story.  I hope you enjoyed this.  Sometimes I feel like I?m just talking to myself if no one states anything.  I apologize for how I get overly? zealous when defending my theories.

Like I said earlier, this is meant to be a prelude to my Perfect Memento (as it relates to Yukari) analysis.  Hope you (?or anyone) is looking forward to it.

Re: Yukari is Maribel: An analysis using official sources
« Reply #112 on: April 22, 2010, 03:07:12 AM »
personally, I don't like to assume things as facts so easily, if they can't be really proved, because if these "facts" get disproved later on, what's the person defending them is going to say? (something which occurs more often in real-life)

"but I never *said* so, did I?" ( even if ambiguous implications sometimes are meant to "say" so, and that person was mistaken/proven wrong later )

One more example: the implication that Mima might be Marisa's relative. Even though there are canonic "indications", I wouldn't not assume them as facts. ( another example: who was the "mysterious person" in Seasonal Dream Vision. Trying to guess right might be fun, but what if it's not actually the character you thought it was? Even worse if you make a fanwork based in such an assumption.. )

Finally, I appreciate the efforts by you and everyone else, just think that the theories aren't reliable; as much as mythology and literature might make their way into the games, this reminds me of Marisa's dialogue with Remilia in EoSD:

- how much of people's blood have you sucked?
- can you say how much bread have you eaten?
- 13. I eat japanese food.

so, ZUN's imagination ( for example, how he plays with and twists japanese mythology ) is something unpredictable.. I could make theories about what he's going to do next, but wouldn't place my money on them, simply because the possible error margin is just too big.
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

RainfallYoshi

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Re: Yukari is Maribel: An analysis using official sources
« Reply #113 on: April 22, 2010, 10:44:24 AM »
Just want to say that this is all rather amazing stuff. I used to be rather skeptic about the whole Maribel=Yukari theory but this presentation of things really adds it up nicely. You just won me over to believing in this theory. Awesomeness.

Infy♫

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Re: Yukari is Maribel: An analysis using official sources
« Reply #114 on: April 26, 2010, 04:00:23 PM »
I do believe maribel is yukari, but not that mary became yukari as time passed and stuff like that. it's not like she's even disappeared from this world.

i think she just becomes yukari in her dreams, and enters gensokyo. there's so much evidence for that, but there's pretty much no evidence for your story.

RainfallYoshi

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Re: Yukari is Maribel: An analysis using official sources
« Reply #115 on: April 26, 2010, 04:31:39 PM »
I do believe maribel is yukari, but not that mary became yukari as time passed and stuff like that. it's not like she's even disappeared from this world.

i think she just becomes yukari in her dreams, and enters gensokyo. there's so much evidence for that, but there's pretty much no evidence for your story.

Would you like to provide this evidence you speak of? And why exactly is there no evidence for Tiamat's theory on things? For the sake of discussion I'd like to know your thoughts here.

Re: Yukari is Maribel: An analysis using official sources
« Reply #116 on: April 26, 2010, 06:48:17 PM »
I do believe maribel is yukari, but not that mary became yukari as time passed and stuff like that. it's not like she's even disappeared from this world.

i think she just becomes yukari in her dreams, and enters gensokyo. there's so much evidence for that, but there's pretty much no evidence for your story.

About Yukari and Maribel being the same person in parallel worlds (as in one being active while the other sleeps), Yukari just outlives Maribel :p

there's (afaik) no canon evidence that confirms or disproves Tiamat's theories, only possible indications.. things that I (at least) couldn't work into something solid, reliable :p
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Re: Yukari is Maribel: An analysis using official sources
« Reply #117 on: April 27, 2010, 11:23:00 PM »
I do believe maribel is yukari, but not that mary became yukari as time passed and stuff like that. it's not like she's even disappeared from this world.

i think she just becomes yukari in her dreams, and enters gensokyo. there's so much evidence for that, but there's pretty much no evidence for your story.

Quote from: shadowbringer
About Yukari and Maribel being the same person in parallel worlds (as in one being active while the other sleeps), Yukari just outlives Maribel :p

The process of entering another world in your dreams is actually explained quite thoroughly (for a Touhou concept) in official works on at least two different occassions.  They are also stated in a rather factual way, as opposed to simply being a rumour (which the explanations in Yukari's Perfect Memento article are described as.  Not that either Perfect Memento explanation matches your above quoted theories, anyways.  In fact, neither of the above quoted theories of becoming a whole other being in a dream or of  parallel worlds are ever brought up anywhere in any official work at all.  The closest thing to becoming a whole other being in your dreams is the "I dreamt I was a butterfly" motif that keeps on getting brought up in official works when it comes to both Maribel and Yukari, but concluding that it means Maribel is constantly switching back and forth from human and youkai completely misses the entire point of that philosophy in the first place.  The philosophy of dreaming as a butterfly is about wondering if the dream is actually REAL and the reality is fake, not about actually going back and forth as a butterfly and a human being depending on what state of sleep or awake you're in.  Normally there might still be a little room for argument here, except ZUN pretty much shot the entire idea of switching back and forth to pieces whenever he gave an explanation of how it's supposed to work (which again, he?s done on two different occasions.  Two and a half if you count Grimoire of Marisa))

(as for the theory that Yukari outlived Maribel, how does THAT work when Maribel is clearly in the future?  Yukari can't outlive Maribel when Maribel wasn't even BORN yet)

Both characters explaining how it works are two reasonably intelligent characters (ZUN has specifically stated that Maribel and Renko are very smart.  ...and that "smart girls are cool.", and Rinnosuke is generally treated by most other characters as a reliable source of advice, too, if with a few personality quirks on how to run a business).  Neither character even for a moment has any doubts about the way it works, and the fact that they didn't even need to really think about it at all before knowing what was going on shows that apparently this is supposed to be common sense (or at least, common sense to reasonably intelligent people) in ZUN's world (not just Gensokyo, but the entire world, since Renko is an outsider)

Maribel?s viewpoint of how it works might count as a disagreement, but even then Maribel?s view of how it works doesn?t have anything to do with constantly switching back and forth or with parallel worlds.  Or of even travelling to another world at all.  Maribel basically believes ?If I?m dreaming it, my mind must be making it real?.  But even she?s so unsure of that that she?s practically begging Renko for advice on the matter in Changeability of Strange Dream.  Given that ZUN gave the last word to Renko, and had Rinnosuke repeat it, it?s pretty clear how ZUN is going to have it work in his Touhouverse.

In essense, the current explanation of how travelling to another world in your dreams works (or at least, results in) is probably more credible and reliable than the majority of other explanations about things you might see in various Touhou official works, short of ZUN going out and stating that's how it works directly in an interview or e-mail correspondence, himself.

Sadly, apparently it's meant to be such common sense that neither character bothers spelling out the exact method for us.  The way it's narrated in both cases, it's almost as if ZUN expects us to already know it's supposed to work this way (and possibly, maybe he does.  Maybe it's something that the Japanese tend to believe dreams work in general that just doesn't translate to western cultures that well)

Still, the end result is spelled out pretty clearly.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia:_Chapter_11

?But... I didn?t open my eyes. What if, after seeing the outside world, I couldn?t return to Gensokyo anymore? Humans that are spirited away almost never have a chance to come back again. On the other hand, if I open my eyes believing this to be only a visual and auditory illusion, my thoughts wouldn?t cross the border and would be back to Gensokyo, and I could miss my chance to see the outside world. Which is what I truly wish for?

That?s right, wasn?t my goal to obtain fuel? I did have a clear objective. I didn?t want to get lost in the outside world, only to visit it to complete a task. I had to leave my thoughts at Kourindou?no, at Gensokyo?and let only my body cross over there. Yes, that?s a feat humans couldn?t pull off? but I?m sure I could.

For the sake of getting fuel for making my shop warm again, I slowly opened my eyes.?


It?s only 95% certain that Rinnosuke was dreaming when he did this (?It looked like I had just fallen asleep for a little while.? and ?If I just kept falling asleep like this, there was no way I could reach my goal.?), but if you want complete confirmation that he was dreaming while he went travelling to another world, you get it here:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia:_Chapter_11.5

??A while ago... I had this strange dream. It felt really bad. It had this ear-hurting noise and a dazzling light, in a kind of scenery I had never seen, but for some reason, my memories are? ? better to talk nothing more of that small box.?


As I stated before, Rinnosuke isn?t the only one who believes dreams work this way (and again, the fact that he doesn?t express any doubt or need to spend a moment to think about it indicates that this thing is supposed to be common knowledge in ZUN?s world).  Renko states Maribel?s dreams are the same thing in here:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Changeability_of_Strange_Dream

?It's obvious that Mary went to the inside of the boundary unconsciously, and she thinks she's in a dream.
Now, she may be very close to the inside of the boundary.?

?She would be trapped in another world if she didn't think she's in a dream.
She would recognize this world as a dream.?

?Waking her up from her dream by making her strongly recognize she's not in the world of dream but actually exists in another world.
Still... she wouldn't come back to this world again?

The wording is understandably a bit different, but the end result is clearly the same.  **Once you accept one of the worlds as your reality, you will eventually be unable to return to the other one.**.

ZUN hammers that point home in Grimoire of Marisa, too.  Once again, Marisa accepts it without any surprise, doubts, or even mere curiousity, indicating that this is common knowledge about how it works in the Touhouverse.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/The_Grimoire_of_Marisa:_Yukari_Yakumo%27s_Spell_Cards

?A spellcard that uses the danmaku of both an eternally expanding dream and a rapidly shrinking reality.?

Of course, in Maribel?s case, the symbolism here is that Gensokyo was originally the dream, but now it?s rapidly expanding (IE, overtaking the reality).

It?s pretty obvious which became Maribel?s reality in the end.  First of all, Renko concluded that the real world would only remain Maribels reality if she destroyed Maribel?s items from Maribel?s dreams (the cookies, paper, and bamboo shoots), but then in the end to Changeability of Strange Dream, she gives those objects back to Maribel.  This is pretty much cementing that Maribel will thus eventually fully cross into Gensokyo and be unable to return to the outside world.  If that wasn?t obvious enough, ZUN has Yukari state in Memorizable Gensokyo, ?I represent Gensokyo?s reality?.  Really, at this point ZUN couldn?t make it any clearer that Maribel?s fully accepted her dream of Gensokyo as her new reality (and thus never be able to return to her world) short of directly stating it in an interview (As for why he doesn?t do that, just go read his interviews at Touhouwikia in ZUN?s section and go see how often ZUN actually talks about the big picture part of the plot in anything at all.  Hint:  Not very)



There are a lot of unanswered questions and uncertainties about how things work in Touhou.

THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

ZUN has made it VERY clear that in the end, there can only be one.  He?s done this in TWO places, which is twice as much as anything else he?s ever done when it comes to telling people how things work in the Touhou universe.  And he?s made it very clear in the ending of Changeability which one that would be for Maribel.  He?s then made it ridiculously clear in Memorizable Gensokyo which one Yukari?s reality is.

Sure, POSSIBLY at the beginning Yukari dreamed she was Maribel and Maribel dreamed she was Yukari.  ZUN, however, has made it VERY clear that eventually there will be only one, so even if this was true at first, it definitely isn?t anymore.

Sure, POSSIBLY at the beginning, when Maribel was dreaming she was in a parallel world as Yukari and when Yukari was dreaming, she was in a parallel world as Maribel, But again, it?s VERY clear that in the end, there will be only one.

And given that Yukari?s been around for 1,300 years, and that Changeability displayed what would happen clear as day when Renko gave Maribel the objects from her dreams instead of destroying them, and that Yukari is now stating she?s Gensokyo?s reality (not Gensokyo?s dream), it?s pretty obvious which ?one? it was in the end.

Maybe for a while she was dreaming back and forth.  Maybe for a while she was dreaming in parallel worlds.  None of that matters now because the end result is the same.  ?Maribel? must be gone and ?Yukari? is here today.  IE, Maribel became Yukari.



(of course, when comparing which theory is more likely regarding Maribel and Yukari?s relationship, there?s a whole bunch of circumstantial evidence supporting that Maribel became Yukari while refuting that theories that the two exist in parallel existences, such as how Lafcadio Hearn became Koizumi Yakumo, not the other way around,

and such as how Maribel has a family and comes from a long line of border sight-see-ers while Yukari named herself,

and such as how Maribel?s powers are even stated by Renko to apparently be evolving into Yukari?s, not the other way around,

but many of you seem to have a heart attack whenever circumstantial evidence or evidence which requires extrapolation is mentioned, so I figured I?d just stick to the above earlier wall of text, which is pretty much the closest thing we?ll ever get to confirmed positive evidence short of ZUN stating that?s how it works in an interview directly.  ?and then I decided to go and type this last paragraph here anyways.  Oops.)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 03:10:56 AM by Tiamat »

Re: Yukari is Maribel: An analysis using official sources
« Reply #118 on: April 29, 2010, 06:58:29 AM »
(as for the theory that Yukari outlived Maribel, how does THAT work when Maribel is clearly in the future?  Yukari can't outlive Maribel when Maribel wasn't even BORN yet)

in the scenario where Maribel would be Yukari during her sleep and vice-versa, Maribel's life span doesn't match Yukari's. That's why Maribel can't, in that case, be Yukari in parallel worlds (and similar time spaces)

Both characters explaining how it works are two reasonably intelligent characters (ZUN has specifically stated that Maribel and Renko are very smart.  ...and that "smart girls are cool.", and Rinnosuke is generally treated by most other characters as a reliable source of advice, too, if with a few personality quirks on how to run a business).  Neither character even for a moment has any doubts about the way it works, and the fact that they didn't even need to really think about it at all before knowing what was going on shows that apparently this is supposed to be common sense (or at least, common sense to reasonably intelligent people) in ZUN's world (not just Gensokyo, but the entire world, since Renko is an outsider)

I'd say, that I would take even Suika's words with a grain of salt, because no matter how truthful she might be as an oni, that doesn't make her infalible. While you mentioned that Kourin might be a reliable source of advice, Suika has said (in IaMP's story mode) that Youmu shouldn't trust what Yukari says. If Yukari says that she represents Gensokyo's reality (in Memorizable Gensokyo), and oni dislike lies, we have two conflicting "evidences". (also, it seems that the Gensokyo chronicles made by Akyu are "revised" by people such as Marisa and Reimu as well. It's not like the chronicles have the power to alter Gensokyo, and thus, if Yukari would ever become a god through Akyu, it would be likely as a myth, rather than being actually empowered through her -- and she would likely not be alone :p)

Why am I so skeptical? Mostly because indications may be actually red herrings. And interpretations, being subjective, aren't canon (as interpretations are from ourselves, rather than from the author), and may conflict with interpretations from other people.

Let's say that SSiB wasn't fully published, and its production was for some reason stopped after the first volumes. People would be led to wonder about what would be the outcome of a second Lunar War, and what would that Chang'E, imprisoned in the moon, do, and such. Most likely, they wouldn't get the right answer.

Maribel?s viewpoint of how it works might count as a disagreement, but even then Maribel?s view of how it works doesn?t have anything to do with constantly switching back and forth or with parallel worlds.  Or of even travelling to another world at all.  Maribel basically believes ?If I?m dreaming it, my mind must be making it real?.  But even she?s so unsure of that that she?s practically begging Renko for advice on the matter in Changeability of Strange Dream.  Given that ZUN gave the last word to Renko, and had Rinnosuke repeat it, it?s pretty clear how ZUN is going to have it work in his Touhouverse.

that doesn't exclude the possibility that both of them are mistaken, even if they're regarded as reliable source of informations (which, imho, they're not.. even Sikieiki is possibly not always truthful, as she is *said* to sometimes exaggerate the punishment that sinful people are going to receive. Also, Yugi telling Marisa enough talk, have at you "But, if you're all talk, then here you'll die!
I'll test you well here. " -- if you don't mind the 4th wall break interpretation possibility..)

Sadly, apparently it's meant to be such common sense that neither character bothers spelling out the exact method for us.  The way it's narrated in both cases, it's almost as if ZUN expects us to already know it's supposed to work this way (and possibly, maybe he does.  Maybe it's something that the Japanese tend to believe dreams work in general that just doesn't translate to western cultures that well)

perhaps ZUN doesn't want to give "too much" details about Touhou's setting, because that would progressively limit fanwork potential. Perhaps he sometimes gives us indications (once again, Mima. Marisa's teacher in magic? Mother? I'm not going for a definite answer :p), for a reason, or not (Chang'E? Unnamed Catfish/celestial keystones? Will Youki or Lord Tenma have a relevance in future events, or be revealed in the games/writings/comics? Who are the Four Devas? Kanako, the shrine and the others willingly moving into Gensokyo, even though it's said that it's extremely difficult to move to and from Gensokyo? Mokou's -- probably unintentional -- association with Flandre, or legendary youkai exterminators?)

It?s only 95% certain that Rinnosuke was dreaming when he did this (?It looked like I had just fallen asleep for a little while.? and ?If I just kept falling asleep like this, there was no way I could reach my goal.?), but if you want complete confirmation that he was dreaming while he went travelling to another world, you get it here:

to me, it seems that in both cases, Kourin dreamt about the outside world, and (by coincidence or not) Yukari was surprised that he made it all the way to the outside, and told him that he shouldn't be there, because he wasn't (completely) human, then, Yukari proceeds to take his radio (and then his Game Boy) from him in exchange of fuel for his heater. If this is how people can go to and from Gensokyo (more exactly, to and from dreams/illusions), or at least one of the ways for doing so, this also means that this type of ability isn't exclusive to Yukari or Maribel... (more if you consider Makai's travel agency, in Mystic Square)

Of course, in Maribel?s case, the symbolism here is that Gensokyo was originally the dream, but now it?s rapidly expanding (IE, overtaking the reality).

500 years ago, Yukari made the boundary that isolates illusion from reality, since the humans started disbelieving in youkai's existance, so, the outside world would remain as the world of humans, while the inside would be the youkai's. Later, humans have made the Hakurei Barrier in order to seal the region of Gensokyo and investigate it (source on the Hakurei Barrier: HRtP)

Akyu mentions (iirc) that by the time of Hieda no Aya, Gensokyo's existance has nearly collapsed
~100 years ago - period of the 8th Child of Miare, Hieda no Aya
During this time, humans begin becoming powerful enough to seriously challenge youkai

3: In the time of Aya, the eighth Are Maiden, the power of the youkai of Gensokyo was weakening, and humans outside began to deny their existence, so we were already on the brink of collapse.

These peaceful, yet stimulating times are surely a golden age for humans and youkai alike.
There's no doubt that Gensokyo has become the way it is thanks to the isolation brought about by the Great Hakurei Barrier.
About the time humans outside began to become more powerful and deny the existence of youkai, Gensokyo was already in danger of destruction(*3).

it seems that both the boundary and the Hakurei Barrier have preserved the youkai's powers from humans' increasing disbelief in their existance, and that such disbelief (also shown in MoF, when Kanako was forced to acquire a new source of faith) can threaten them

but many of you seem to have a heart attack whenever circumstantial evidence or evidence which requires extrapolation is mentioned, so I figured I?d just stick to the above earlier wall of text, which is pretty much the closest thing we?ll ever get to confirmed positive evidence short of ZUN stating that?s how it works in an interview directly.  ?and then I decided to go and type this last paragraph here anyways.  Oops.)

like I said before, circumstantial "evidences" might be red herrings (there are lots of quotes from the Touhou games which aren't apparently meant to be taken by word -- for example, Reimu killing Sakuya before reaching Remilia), I surely wouldn't bet my money on something that contains such a margin for error. Though it's okay to bet, for free.

Extrapolation can lead us anywhere:
I did find it misogynistic, but I'm not really sure how much you should read into it.

The bearded old gentleman is a classic capitalist, so you could see it as a Marxist piece. Then again he vaguely looks like a Jewish stereotype to me, which would make this piece anti-semitic.

Or perhaps it's a reference to the tale of Gilgamesh, where Enkidu the simple forest dweller was taught the ways of civilization by a woman and in the end paid for it with his life.

Interpretation is as great as it is useless. You can make it go in any direction.

(well, Maribel *might've* just been repeating Yukari's deeds and discoveries, without even having met her before. This sounds nostalgic, in such a future where belief in magic is greatly diminished. That's another possible interpretation, from me, which I can't assume as canon due to lack of concrete evidence to support this possibility. Perhaps the Hearn/Yakumo was meant to indicate a connection, resemblance, but without a definite answer about whether they're different persons, or not. So far, there are lots of stuff we readers can't trust, even when said by honest characters.)
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Vicks

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Re: Yukari was Maribel: An analysis using official sources
« Reply #119 on: May 02, 2010, 05:08:29 PM »
I am a thinker. I cast light on various concepts. I can unveil the world's dark secrets if I so please. And yet, there is a single enigma that even I cannot clarify.  - Renko Usami

I am a dreamer. I wander through countless dreams. If I will, I can even walk the roads of the land of illusion. And yet, there is a single vision that even I cannot grasp. - Maribel Han