Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3 (Read 221594 times)

MysTeariousYukari · « **Reply #660 on:** March 09, 2010, 10:02:27 AM »

Quote from: Axel Ryman on March 09, 2010, 08:17:46 AM

Spoiler:
Yuugi could do it one handed, while sipping some Sake. Suika could carry her too but it wouldn't be as epic, Mokou would just fry her worse than McDonald's, and Yukari's portals will just shatter her. Oh right, Utsuho would fry her worse than Mokou, Keine could carry her, Kanako may be able to as well, but the other 5 Plus Disk characters wouldn't be able to help, but who wants to wait till the Plus Disk for Minoriko?

^ Win.

Spoiler:

Garlyle · « **Reply #661 on:** March 09, 2010, 10:18:23 AM »

Quote from: MystearicaUtsuho on March 09, 2010, 10:02:27 AM

^ Win.
Spoiler:
But couldn't Yukari just Gap Minoriko into the light?

If she could do that, why didn't she just

Spoiler:

?

Also yeah. 90% of the time Meiling is the best tank. The other 10% of the time is when either A) the boss loves defense-piercing moves and is vulneurable to stat debuffs (So you use the 7F tank), or B) when you can actually flat out negate all damage the boss is doing, in which case 10F. But when either of these conditions aren't true, Meiling takes the victory.

Ghaleon · « **Reply #662 on:** March 09, 2010, 07:16:23 PM »

If the enemy has no def-ignore attacks, 10F girl is the best tank if you are moderately above level. She'll be taking 0s the whole time >=P.

Serela · « **Reply #663 on:** March 09, 2010, 08:50:09 PM »

Quote from: Ghaleon on March 09, 2010, 07:16:23 PM

If the enemy has no def-ignore attacks, 10F girl is the best tank if you are moderately above level. She'll be taking 0s the whole time >=P.

Which is pretty much a total boss cheese and should make you feel bad >:I

Besides, Meiling's Healer is great for healing status effects and the heal portion seems to scale faster then many character's HP; plus, if you've got

Spoiler:

in your party, Meiling will be healing 1.5~2x as much and it becomes quite significant. Also, Meiling's speed is much greater then 10F, for switching people.

I can't say that 10F isn't awesome for several boss fights; but as I said, for many of those she's so awesome it's practically cheating.

Pesco · « **Reply #664 on:** March 09, 2010, 08:51:59 PM »

Then again, that's the whole point of miss 10F

Ghaleon · « **Reply #665 on:** March 09, 2010, 09:28:00 PM »

Yeah I don't really use her much (not at all in my 2nd playthru), She might be op for many situations, but she's pretty boring... I only used her for her buff dispelling ability(which was fail, like never did squat on any but 2 bosses, in which case it would normally only dispell speed only), and for replacing dead/0sp tanks during a long boss fight.

I still stand by meiling's healr ability actually being significant. Just pump up her atk/mag like you would your average atk/mag characters (Reimu fits in that catagory for me), and her heal should be more than significant for anybody who doesn't have alot of hp. It will also heal some of your especially squishy characters to full completely more often than not (patchy/kaggy). Totally blows at healing other tanks, or high hp targets like flan though (though it offsets a starbrow break self-nuke).

E-Nazrin · « **Reply #666 on:** March 10, 2010, 02:03:16 AM »

Yeah, Healer is awesome. (But I had the stupid stat-raise strategy of "use skill points evenly on all characters for every stat up to stat-up cost XXXX, move up to next arbitrary value after full party meets minimum expectation, so.)

I also initially brought out T 10F explicitly for her buff-dispel ability (which helped a TON against the final boss, and a decent bit against some others), but kept her around as just backup or "I'm not gonna die in the meantime" damage. Even if she takes 0 damage, she generally isn't doing much in the meantime, especially if you have to risk zeroing out her speed or damage potential to buff her defenses in order to get those delicious 0s; Meiling's non-suck speed and support abilities make her a better devoted tank, that can heal or switch out your other characters to keep them alive. Healer's low SP cost also helps when you're trying to recover from getting screwed over by Dijinn Storm or the like.

Though I'll admit her offense is ass when she DOES have a free moment.

Garlyle · « **Reply #667 on:** March 10, 2010, 04:59:44 AM »

Yeah, F10 is pretty damn godly for ensuring you have someone out, so long as she can negate the attacks - but like I said, once that stops happening, her HP is so low that she goes down fast if something's doing enough damage to get through her defenses.

MysTeariousYukari · « **Reply #668 on:** March 10, 2010, 02:34:01 PM »

10Fs DEF/MND buff is the best thing about her, past that I find her useless.

Fishin · « **Reply #669 on:** March 12, 2010, 02:38:57 AM »

I'm going to be adding this to the wiki anyways, but I created a really simple formula to measure how good a character's affinities are overall since the wiki's total affinities stat doesn't really give you an estimate of how good affinities are tbh. All characters ranked from best to worst:

Spoiler:

MysTeariousYukari · « **Reply #670 on:** March 12, 2010, 02:59:43 AM »

Wow, that's pretty impressive Fishin

I would give you a cookie you donut, but I don't know where you live, ect... :V

E-Nazrin · « **Reply #671 on:** March 12, 2010, 03:29:11 AM »

I think the stat-skillpoints affinities are the most glaring omission from the wikis, actually. 10F's DEF and MND are equal under normal conditions, but it takes fewer skillpoints to raise her DEF, and they end up uneven if you raise those based on skillpoint cost.

There's some other oddities, I'm sure, but just as an example...

Ghaleon · « **Reply #672 on:** March 12, 2010, 05:20:58 AM »

Quote from: E-Motion on March 12, 2010, 03:29:11 AM

I think the stat-skillpoints affinities are the most glaring omission from the wikis, actually. 10F's DEF and MND are equal under normal conditions, but it takes fewer skillpoints to raise her DEF, and they end up uneven if you raise those based on skillpoint cost.

There's some other oddities, I'm sure, but just as an example...

Yes it is. I started collecting some data on many of the character's skillpoint costs. But it wasn't complete, and it wasn't exact. I just recorded how many skillpoints it costs to upgrade a stat once it reaches skill level 50 or something, I forget, for like 20 characters.

Esoterica · « **Reply #673 on:** March 13, 2010, 09:59:33 PM »

This game's been really buggy for me. After doing everything on the troubleshooting page on the wiki in addition to reinstalling I've got it working up to loading the title screen properly, but when I select new game the screen goes black and the music stops, and it stays that way until I close it. It does this regardless of an English patch.

Any tips? Windows 7 64-bit in case that somehow makes a difference.

yoshicookiezeus · « **Reply #674 on:** March 13, 2010, 10:16:51 PM »

Do you have any Japanese characters in the file path? That caused a similar problem for me.

Esoterica · « **Reply #675 on:** March 14, 2010, 12:13:32 AM »

Quote from: yoshicookiezeus on March 13, 2010, 10:16:51 PM

Do you have any Japanese characters in the file path? That caused a similar problem for me.

Nope, removed them. Rolled back display drivers as well.

Specifically, this is what I see when I start the game, and this is what I see after clicking new game. No error messages, it just fades to black and stays black.

If I click load game, it brings up the menu like it should.

Garlyle · « **Reply #676 on:** March 14, 2010, 02:46:36 PM »

Your ratings are... unusual.

Here, have the actual list of every character's total natural affinities:

Spoiler:

Yes,

Spoiler:

isn't the lowest total affinity. In fact she's fifth. I'd also make the argument that by the time you get her, you should easily be able to pump her natural affinities up to at least 100 without debting yourself too much in SKP. And while others will probably be seeing a natural 150-200 by this point with those same costs, keep in mind that nobody else will have a natural ~350 either without a seriously large investment.

I have these for every other character and stat, by the way, if you wanted to see EXACTLY where people fall. This is the list I used to generate the ratings used originally, although someone went and finished it off anyway.

Esoterica · « **Reply #677 on:** March 14, 2010, 11:42:11 PM »

Got the game working now. Turns out I hadn't realized I'd forgotten to use the bonus disc before updating to v2.04. :V

trancehime · « **Reply #678 on:** March 15, 2010, 09:58:42 AM »

Quote from: Garlyle on March 14, 2010, 02:46:36 PM

Your ratings are... unusual.

Here, have the actual list of every character's total natural affinities:

...

Yes,
Spoiler:
Flandre
isn't the lowest total affinity. In fact she's fifth. I'd also make the argument that by the time you get her, you should easily be able to pump her natural affinities up to at least 100 without debting yourself too much in SKP. And while others will probably be seeing a natural 150-200 by this point with those same costs, keep in mind that nobody else will have a natural ~350 either without a seriously large investment.

I have these for every other character and stat, by the way, if you wanted to see EXACTLY where people fall. This is the list I used to generate the ratings used originally, although someone went and finished it off anyway.

Spoiler:

doesn't have the lowest overall natural Affinity, BUT her average affinities are a piece of shit. High FIR affinity but shitty everything else, sub-80 is horrendous! Fishin's listings are a RATING of HOW GOOD the affinities are, not the ACTUAL affinities themselves.

Garlyle · « **Reply #679 on:** March 15, 2010, 02:30:24 PM »

Mathematically speaking, on average, spoiler-chan's affinities work out to just slightly above 100; contrast Chen, at the lowest, whose affinites average out to just slightly over 90.

If you're talking about the Median though (I think it's the Median - you know, the 'this is the actual central value when all are put in a line'), yes, she does end up the worst.

Ghaleon · « **Reply #680 on:** March 15, 2010, 07:41:01 PM »

If I read it right, that listing is NOT a guide to how good someone's affinities are, OR how high they are on average, they are a guide to how much they COST to upgrade via skillpoints, natural levels uncalculated.

trancehime · « **Reply #681 on:** March 16, 2010, 01:55:06 AM »

Quote from: Ghaleon on March 15, 2010, 07:41:01 PM

If I read it right, that listing is NOT a guide to how good someone's affinities are, OR how high they are on average, they are a guide to how much they COST to upgrade via skillpoints, natural levels uncalculated.

Uh

Quote

I'm going to be adding this to the wiki anyways, but I created a really simple formula to measure how good a character's affinities are overall since the wiki's total affinities stat doesn't really give you an estimate of how good affinities are tbh. All characters ranked from best to worst:

Ghaleon · « **Reply #682 on:** March 16, 2010, 04:00:03 AM »

Quote from: Lady Ilina Aty on March 16, 2010, 01:55:06 AM

Uh

derp, I was confusing the topic at hand with what I quoted last (which apparently has been deleted since) regarding the stat-skillpoint affinities, the topics were fairly similar so I got them confused.

Fishin · « **Reply #683 on:** March 17, 2010, 04:47:25 AM »

Quote from: Garlyle on March 14, 2010, 02:46:36 PM

Your ratings are... unusual.

The thing is that the value of affinities decreases as you go up, so having one sky-high affinity and the others in the dirt isn't as useful as a balanced set, even if the balanced set doesn't have as high of a total. Having an affinity of 50 increases damage by 100%, while having an affinity of 150 decreases it by only 33%.

For example, say you're facing a boss that uses all six elements equally with attacks that do 1000 damage each time regardless of defenses. Take a character who has a 500 in Fire and 20 in everything else, and a character who has 100 in everything.

Character A takes:
200 damage from the fire attack (1000 x .2)
5000 damage from all the other attacks (1000 x 5)

Character B takes:
1000 damage from each attack (1000 x 1)

And just for the hell of it, take a character who has 200 in Fire and Cold but 50 in everything else:

500 damage from the fire/ice attacks (1000 x .5)
2000 damage from everything else (1000 x 2)

So in the end, character A takes 25200 damage total and character B takes 6000 total. Character C takes 9000. The closer to being totally balanced your affinities are, the higher the weighted rating will be (of course, it's also affected by how high your affinities are total).

Quote

I'd also make the argument that by the time you get her, you should easily be able to pump her natural affinities up to at least 100 without debting yourself too much in SKP.

This is valid, but you can't really compare a character that joins on 14F to a character that joins on 1F that way, because lack of skill points on 1F is a party-wide problem, it's not unique to any specific character. That, plus the fact that by 14F, assuming you're distributing resources equally, 1F character will have as many skill points invested in affinities as 14F, so if you're trying to compare the characters during the time they're both available, it's a moot point.

Quote

And while others will probably be seeing a natural 150-200 by this point with those same costs, keep in mind that nobody else will have a natural ~350 either without a seriously large investment.

That's because it's a rating for affinities as a whole, not individual affinities.

Jelly Belly · « **Reply #684 on:** March 17, 2010, 01:53:57 PM »

Is there any more Bloodstained Seal bosses on floors after the 20th?
Because I can't seem to find any more of them.
[EDIT] Oh hey. I totally forgot about the bees on floor 1.

MysTeariousYukari · « **Reply #685 on:** March 18, 2010, 02:04:56 AM »

Quote from: Jelly_Belly on March 17, 2010, 01:53:57 PM

Is there any more Bloodstained Seal bosses on floors after the 20th?
Because I can't seem to find any more of them.
[EDIT] Oh hey. I totally forgot about the bees on floor 1.

Spoiler:

Thata no Guykoro · « **Reply #686 on:** March 24, 2010, 10:49:11 PM »

Quote from: Jelly_Belly on March 17, 2010, 01:53:57 PM

Is there any more Bloodstained Seal bosses on floors after the 20th?
Because I can't seem to find any more of them.
[EDIT] Oh hey. I totally forgot about the bees on floor 1.

When do said bees appear?

Also, from what I've read, there's apparently an optional enemy that appears where Meiling used to be... Any idea how to trigger it?

Axel Ryman · « **Reply #687 on:** March 24, 2010, 11:55:09 PM »

Quote from: Thatsonnn Dedeguy on March 24, 2010, 10:49:11 PM

When do said bees appear?

Also, from what I've read, there's apparently an optional enemy that appears where Meiling used to be... Any idea how to trigger it?

Bees appear after other Blood Seals are destroyed. Check the original seal you saw to fight. At least I think that's the one.

Optional enemy? Uh..no idea. First time I heard of it, unless I forgot about a boss.

Thata no Guykoro · « **Reply #688 on:** March 25, 2010, 12:13:10 AM »

Quote from: Axel Ryman on March 24, 2010, 11:55:09 PM

Bees appear after other Blood Seals are destroyed. Check the original seal you saw to fight. At least I think that's the one.

Optional enemy? Uh..no idea. First time I heard of it, unless I forgot about a boss.

I think it is a boss, but as best as I can tell from the translated Japanese wiki, there's apparently some sort of optional boss that shows up in the spot where Meiling was, according to the English Wiki there's something called a "Disgusting Malice"?

Axel Ryman · « **Reply #689 on:** March 25, 2010, 01:07:02 AM »

Quote from: Thatsonnn Dedeguy on March 25, 2010, 12:13:10 AM

I think it is a boss, but as best as I can tell from the translated Japanese wiki, there's apparently some sort of optional boss that shows up in the spot where Meiling was, according to the English Wiki there's something called a "Disgusting Malice"?

Only thing I can think of is one of the bugs you need to kill for Wriggle, though it's not where Meiling was, in the general area.