Author Topic: Himelander Mafia Thread (Over! Scum Win!)  (Read 74550 times)

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #360 on: February 18, 2010, 02:58:27 AM »
I think I just approach things differently from you. In the event of Kiro vs. Ciato, I feel they are both scum so I really don't care which one hangs. I'm that confident.

You do take a more logical approach of taking out who's scummier.

I'll admit I actually would lean Kiro upon further thought since he's both good at wriggling out of tough spots and town already seems to be buying into his "towniness"

What's odd is I'm getting townie intent from you now, Bard. Not sure how to take that.


Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #361 on: February 18, 2010, 03:04:12 AM »
Addressing pertinent matters first, my suspect alignment later:

If I understand your third line, in the event of Kiro VS Ciato you'd vote for Ciato's continued survival? You say "lean Kiro", which I think could be your vote, but the rest seems to indict him of being a master of escapism from being revealed for the scum he may be.




Chalk that last one up to "being a bit* frustrated by Pesco going 'ALRIGHT LET'S GO WARM FUZZY FEELINGS CHALLENGE!' and people going 'I see nothing wrong with that, let's go Pesco!'", when I prefer to take a more reserved approach to these kind of things and take as much time as is necessary to get everyone's input and derive alignment from attitude, words, etcetera. Presence.

Pesco did what he did at a time when most hadn't posted. I felt extremely frustrated he pulled such a stunt and that people went along with it; naturally, my leeriest distrust was given to the first person to support Pesco so overtly.

Which you had the unfortunate misfortune to be. Rest assured that when it becomes pertinent I will re-examine what was said so far and see if I can truly establish my distrust as being founded. In fact, let me do so right now and we can bury this nasty hatchet.

* may be an understatement here

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #362 on: February 18, 2010, 03:09:18 AM »
Quote
If I understand your third line, in the event of Kiro VS Ciato you'd vote for Ciato's continued survival? You say "lean Kiro", which I think could be your vote, but the rest seems to indict him of being a master of escapism from being revealed for the scum he may be.


I don't like either option to be honest...I want Ciato to hang (scum in front of us), but I don't want Kiro to slip away. And hell, it's not like my vote would change many minds anyway, so it'd probably be fruitless. I think Kiro is already pretty much immune in the town's mind, and that bugs me SO MUCH.

Quote
Which you had the unfortunate misfortune to be. Rest assured that when it becomes pertinent I will re-examine what was said so far and see if I can truly establish my distrust as being founded. In fact, let me do so right now and we can bury this nasty hatchet.

Good luck.

At any rate, I still would prefer that we not get tunnelled on people. I at least am tunneled on five...well, four now, separate scum picks, but I'm trying to keep an eye out for changes. I might be convinced Bard isn't scum...he was, as I said, my weakest read.


Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #363 on: February 18, 2010, 03:13:46 AM »
If you think Kiro is scum, wouldn't Ciato VS Kiro be ideal? Scum VS Scum, that can only end in victory. Can you at least support a Kiro VS Ciato challenge so we can get that show on the road before time runs out?

Errr, that hinges on Kiro/Ciato being around and complying. I... imagine Ciato may find the idea less appealing as it looks like it may cost her head.

Do we have a contingency plan in the case no show happens?

Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #364 on: February 18, 2010, 03:15:43 AM »
Fakevote Town-nominated dueller vs Ciato seems appropriate at this point.

Still very much against Alex vs. Ciato for previously mentioned reasons, 50% chance of failure does not sound attractive regardless of my confidence in Ciato being the scummy there. Will obviously revisit possibility of scum Alex tomorrow if Ciato flips town but I consider this unlikely. Favored dueller, if town's not taking up my request, is Kiro. I did a reread of his posts, initial impression holds up. There is a fair amount of game/theory discussion in his posts, but I found it to be always applied to the situation at hand and he consistently proceeds with the intent of discounting setups that would give scum an advantage. Yes, this could be faked, but you could say that about anything. He seems like a safer bet than most other players to me.

Also made a point of following Chaos posts surrounding the day 2 duel and today's challenge. Chaos is consistently suspicious of Alex but somehow never slips in a positive word about the player we've talked a lot about pitting against Alex. Barely mentions Ciato at all, really. It seems strange to me that he'd only focus on one side of the equation, believe Chaos may indeed be worth visiting as a suspect down the road.

Out for the night, likely won't be back before challenge deadline due to it being on crazy Oz time but I doubt that'll matter since I don't seem favored to initiate it.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #365 on: February 18, 2010, 03:18:50 AM »
Hmm...good point Bard.

I didn't really think that through.

Unfakevote, Fakevote Kiro vs. Ciato

For some reason I got stuck in a weird rut. I actually understand Serpentarius' proposed strategy a lot more now. Scum vs. scum has always been ideal, and it just never clicked for me.

Quote
I did a reread of his posts, initial impression holds up. There is  a fair amount of game/theory discussion in his posts, but I found it to be always applied to the situation at hand and he consistently proceeds with the intent of discounting setups that would give scum an advantage. Yes, this could be faked, but you could say that about anything. He seems like a safer bet than most other players to me.

How about this regarding Kiro. How many stances does he take? How many accusations does he throw out? Does he actually appear to be scumhunting? That's the other half of my issue with him.


Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #366 on: February 18, 2010, 03:19:28 AM »
Is there someone less chrono-challenged than I am able to tell me how long until deadline?

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #367 on: February 18, 2010, 03:20:28 AM »
Deadline is in about 4 and a half hours.


UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #368 on: February 18, 2010, 03:21:04 AM »
Er, sorry. Five and a half. Since it's 7.45 hours from 8 PM my time. And it is now 10:21 PM my time.


Kefit

  • The Wild Draw Four of America
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #369 on: February 18, 2010, 03:28:20 AM »
Man, I'm running 0/2 this game. Probably a combination of being rusty and trying to apply a play style that just doesn't work here. But hey, they say that third time's the charm - and now I've got a decent amount of info to play with. I think I'll even bother to reread the thread with this information in mind!

Oh ho, our scumtastic friend Tom tried to push Pesco and Bardiche into a duel back on day one amidst a general outcry of "for the love of god don't jizz before you even get your pants off." And what do you know, Pesco challenged Bard to a duel and then predictably died. So...did Tom want to push Pesco into dueling Bard in the hopes that Bard would then claim a head for the scum? Or was scum pushing for a town vs. town duel?

I'd put my money on the former. Town v. town does little to nothing for the scum - the scum exchange a potential kill for voting power, neither of which mean an awful lot right now. On the other hand, claiming a town head early on would be a huge boon for the scum. It might be all that they need to lay back and watch as the townies kill eachother for the rest of the game. Bard's posts throughout the first day also bug me - they are hyper-defensive and nit-pick random sentences of other posts. They don't really accomplish anything. His only discernible goal is trying to find scum despite having no real information at that point. Wouldn't it be sensible to save discussion not pertinent to the dual he was embroiled in for after the alignment flip? After all, an alignment flip can change many things in the scum hunting department.

Bard being scum would also make Tom's completely unreasoned vote for Pesco's survival a rather cute move, now wouldn't it?

But let's move away from Bard for a moment. My analysis yesterday was that Tom was a raving lunatic. Any player with half a brain would know from day one that a premature discharge would only lead to death, right? Really, I can't see it be any other way, unless you lot are stupider then I could possibly imagine. This is doubly true if Tom was scum, as he would have had scum buddies to coach him on avoiding such embarrassing accidents.

Except Tom was scum after all. A scum who happily thrust himself into the meat grinder under the guise of an immature bodily impulse. So barring unknown roles and powers, this has got to be a scum gambit, right? Seems awfully obvious for one. Too obvious for me, really. But even if it's obvious, the potential of nabbing three heads by the end of day three was probably too good for the scum to pass up. Alex vs Ciato right now would simply be playing right into their hands. As Alex summed up earlier:

Quote from: Alex
Ciato vs me is objectively a very silly idea and should not be done unless people are 100% on me being town and Ciato being scum, and I don't think people are.  (Or vice versa but there's even less support for that.)  It is nearly guaranteed that one of us is scum and for people who are unsure of our alignments, calling me vs Ciato wrong is a 50/50 risk of giving scum a head.  With having others execute us instead, the executioner MIGHT be scum but the chance of that is far less than 50%.  It is just obviously safer.

I have no read on Ciato. But Alex has been overwhelmingly sensible this entire thread, and this last quote seems to be something that the scum would REALLY want to keep under wraps if their gambit is actually as simple as it looks. I also like Alex's proposal from earlier.

Propose: Kefit vs. Ciato

1) If Ciato flips scum, then I am probably town. Just don't let me challenge anyone after this point on due to the slim chance that I may have pulled an idiotic scum vs. scum gambit in an effort to prove my townness. After this I would probably recommend Bard v. Alex.

2) If Ciato flips town, then it means that Alex is almost assuredly scum. Someone who isn't me should then duel Alex. God knows what you would all think of me at this point, but I would hope that you guys realize that, in the event that Alex and I are both scum, we wouldn't be stupid enough to actively work together in the thread. Still, it wouldn't be a good idea to let me instigate a challenge after this point. If I am scum, that would mean 2-3 heads for the scum after today, but in exchange for neutralizing 3-4 of us (Tom, Alex, me, and probably Bard). I dunno about you guys, but that exchange doesn't seem favorable to me unless there are an absurd number of scum this game (I'm talking >=6).

I'm not going to bother thinking past tomorrow's duel due to the information that could come out in the mean time. Thoughts on this proposal?

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #370 on: February 18, 2010, 03:32:13 AM »
My kneejerk reaction to Kefit's proposal is "wat?"

I don't think it's a good one, nor do I think it's town motivated. Every head counts for scum, even if they keep losing people on it later. We could have up to two scum wins so far. It's possible Kefit is planning to sacrifice himself for a third. Course, he's not in my scum picks, but he was definitely on the scummier end of my analysis.


Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #371 on: February 18, 2010, 03:43:56 AM »
Kefit: I'm more inclined to think Scum might be aiming for the "if less town than scum remain, scum win, provided there are at least 5 town".

NOTE THAT EVERYTHING PAST THIS IS CONJECTURE ON A GHASTLY, GHASTLY SCENARIO THAT I DON'T EVEN WANT TO CONSIDER BECAUSE OF THE MASSIVE WIFOM IMPLICATIONS.

In that scenario:

Egg on Pesco VS Bard: -1 Town.
Initiate duel with three townies, one scum: EITHER -1 Town -1 Scum, OR -2 Town + 1 Head
In the event of the prior:
Alex VS Ciato: -1 Town.
We then obviously conclude the other is scum.
Survivor VS Random: -1 Town.

Net: either -4 town or -5 town. Down to 12/11 players, with the KNOWLEDGE that 5 townies killed by scum = scum win. In the latter case, 11 players left, scum only need to kill 4 more.

It's a giant gamble with obvious results. If we assume standard game of Mafia, 3-4 scum sounds right, leaving around 7-8 town after this stint if the scenario is as ghastly as I present it now.

If 4 Scum 7 Town, then obviously there is a problem. Let's examine what happens if we do... this:

Town VS Town: -1 Town,
4 Scum 6 Town remain, 4 Town need to be Scumkilled.

OR

Scum VS Scum: -1 Scum,
3 Scum, 6 Town remain, 4 Town need to be Scumkilled, PEOPLE DON'T REALLY THINK SCUM WOULD EMPLOY THIS SORT OF PLOY...

But because we want to be really silly we'll assume a devilishly devilish mastermind; I know I would if you really want to analyse Tom's behaviour as intention.

So, 9 people left. Now... the Scum just presented a Champion in a Scum VS Scum fight who people venture must be Town.

How academic to now clean up, perhaps, another Scum, and then cruise control into Town to seize victory.



Hell, I'd go with this bloody idea if I was scum.

Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #372 on: February 18, 2010, 03:45:25 AM »
That's not an invitation to kill me off to confirm this isn't some mastermind garbling from scum side!

Kefit

  • The Wild Draw Four of America
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #373 on: February 18, 2010, 03:47:39 AM »
My kneejerk reaction to Kefit's proposal is "wat?"

I don't think it's a good one, nor do I think it's town motivated. Every head counts for scum, even if they keep losing people on it later. We could have up to two scum wins so far. It's possible Kefit is planning to sacrifice himself for a third. Course, he's not in my scum picks, but he was definitely on the scummier end of my analysis.

The scum only have so many people to lose in their hunt for heads. They are in a race with the town to get their five heads before they are all killed. In the event that we are left with one scum standing after the scum have claimed three heads, then the scum can only ever win if we let any given person win more than one challenge after that point.

If my analysis is correct, then in the worst case scenarios I am scum, Alex is scum, Bard is scum, and Tom is scum (and dead). None of us will ever win a challenge again. Yet only three heads will have been claimed (Pesco, Kilga, and Ciato). Thus, barring unknown roles and powers, the scum would only be able to win if either you let one person win multiple duels after this point, or there are more then five scum.

Better scenarios include:

Ciato flipping scum, me being town, and Alex being town. In this case we are at two dead scum (Tom and Ciato), one neutralized (Bard), and two heads claimed by the scum (Pesco and Kilga). Again, good for us.

Or Ciato flipping town, me being town, and Alex being scum. Then we have one dead scum (Tom), two neutralized (Bard and Alex), and two heads claimed by the scum (Pesco and Kilga). #neutralized scum > #heads claimed = good for us.

So I guess the real question is: does anyone think there is a good chance that we are playing with more than five scum?

ps if Bard isn't scum, then that's just one less scum neutralized and one less head claimed in all cases. The outcome is still to town advantage.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #374 on: February 18, 2010, 03:51:10 AM »
Quote
The scum only have so many people to lose in their hunt for heads. They are in a race with the town to get their five heads before they are all killed. In the event that we are left with one scum standing after the scum have claimed three heads, then the scum can only ever win if we let any given person win more than one challenge after that point.

They are in a race. But if they have three wins with two scum dead, they still have an advantage.

Quote
If my analysis is correct, then in the worst case scenarios I am scum, Alex is scum, Bard is scum, and Tom is scum (and dead). None of us will ever win a challenge again. Yet only three heads will have been claimed (Pesco, Kilga, and Ciato). Thus, barring unknown roles and powers, the scum would only be able to win if either you let one person win multiple duels after this point, or there are more then five scum.

Then what about scum number 5? I'm assuming 5 scum since that feels intuitively more balanced. But I also don't know the set up, so I could be way off.

I'm beginning to see your logic but...why you?


Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #375 on: February 18, 2010, 03:54:05 AM »
Surprisingly I'm opposed to the guy basically going: "There are no downsides to this plan, not at all."

Face it, it's a pipe dream to lower the number of town to less-than-necessary in some form of optimal play without know who's who. We should scumhunt, not approach the ideal strategy to devise how we can kill off people unscathed.

Especially not if we consider the Hime Star!

Jam-Kiske

  • i am not witty
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #376 on: February 18, 2010, 04:07:41 AM »
^ I agree. The day effect or scum roles could ruin any plans we try to have for the entire game at this point.

It really is more important to focus on the NOW.

For instance: who is challenging who now? We've yet to come to a consensus, and I believe we're running out of time.
I'm for Ciato vs probably anyone other than Alex at this point.

Kefit

  • The Wild Draw Four of America
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #377 on: February 18, 2010, 04:32:05 AM »
Surprisingly I'm opposed to the guy basically going: "There are no downsides to this plan, not at all."

I'm asking you guys to poke holes in my plan that I might now see - quite the opposite of presenting a plan and claiming it's completely flawless.

^ I agree. The day effect or scum roles could ruin any plans we try to have for the entire game at this point.

It really is more important to focus on the NOW.

That the HiME star has the potential to muck up any planning has been a constant throughout this thread. Funnily enough I don't remember it being proffered as a counter to short-term plans presented in the past - though if I'm wrong about this I'd be happy if someone corrected me.

And my plan lasts for all of two days. I'd certainly consider that the pertinent NOW considering the information we have.

Kefit

  • The Wild Draw Four of America
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #378 on: February 18, 2010, 04:34:13 AM »
ps if you guys are really worried about the HiME star and possible scum roles, then don't just state that and nothing else. It would be better to give some examples of possible scum roles and day effects that could fuck up everything and explain why they would do so.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #379 on: February 18, 2010, 04:37:40 AM »
I mostly see your point Kefit. I still want an answer to "why you?"


Kefit

  • The Wild Draw Four of America
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #380 on: February 18, 2010, 04:42:33 AM »
Because I'm willing to take the risk that everyone will be gunning for me in the case that Ciato flips town.

Also, I've explained that this is an advantageous plan for town whether I am scum or town. The same analysis could apply to several other players, but I at least know for sure that I am town. Fat lot of good that does the rest of you, but it combines with the other factors to make me the most sensible choice in my eyes.

Perhaps it might be more constructive for you guys to suggest who else you guys would like to see challenge Ciato. Do remember to provide some reasoning. Also remember that we are running out of time.

Now if you excuse me I'm going to go watch Ladies vs. Butlers 07. Oh Mai Gotou how I've waited for you~~

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #381 on: February 18, 2010, 04:44:30 AM »
I do believe scum like taking risks. But...I'm halfway willing to fulfill your plan. With Kiro in your place. Less likely to be role shenanigan'd, and it disables him as scum, as you said.


Edible

  • One part the F?hrer, one part the Pope
  • *
  • It's the inevitable return, baby
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #382 on: February 18, 2010, 04:54:47 AM »
Tick tock.

Kefit

  • The Wild Draw Four of America
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #383 on: February 18, 2010, 05:16:39 AM »
Annoucement:

I will be challenging Ciato at 00:15 pst if no other challenge is agree upon and made by that time. That's in about three hours. This is to prevent a random duel, which I do not think would be advantageous for town at this point.

Jam-Kiske

  • i am not witty
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #384 on: February 18, 2010, 05:32:03 AM »
I suppose I'll be on board with that unless town can come to some other majority consensus seeing as I plan on going to sleep now, and the deadline will occur while I'm asleep.

Ranmilia

  • Multiple Intelligencial Yggdrasil Unit
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #385 on: February 18, 2010, 06:06:16 AM »
Had a long post, internet went out, firefox died, etc.  Long and short is I'm okay with Kefit challenging Ciato, he's been sane and together and that's townie enough for me (since I'm about 95% on Ciato being scum and don't really care who kills her.)  Kinda rolling my eyes at the long term planning focusing on killing winners but we'll see what happens.  Spreading victories out is probably a decent idea, "eliminate winners just in case" not so much.

?lice Bl?ckb?rn

  • The real Alice Blackbarn!
  • *
  • "OH DESIRE"
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #386 on: February 18, 2010, 08:07:35 AM »
Just read through the thread, I do support Kefit vs. Ciato, and probably won't be back until morning. Augh, gastroenteritis can go burn in everlasting hellfire, oh my god.
"Oh, great. Another game where I get screwed by Kilga." ~ Carthrat

Kefit

  • The Wild Draw Four of America
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #387 on: February 18, 2010, 08:20:01 AM »
##Challenge: Ciato

And now I must sleep. I do hope that you guys give this duel ample discussion before flooding in with the votes.

Carthrat

  • HITLER OF LURKERS
  • MEIN MAIDENKAMPF
Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #388 on: February 18, 2010, 11:18:06 AM »
the miko of mayhem

the legend of lunatic

KEFIT (munakata shiho)

vs

the teacher of terror

the brigand of bridges

CIATO (sugiura midori)

You have 45 hours remaining! With 13 alive it take 7 to toss someone a folding chair.

Re: Himelander Mafia Thread (Day 3)
« Reply #389 on: February 18, 2010, 11:37:44 AM »
##Vote: Kefit

Kefit's a decent choice, don't mind him stepping in. Anyway, not much has changed here. Ciato's last defense called Alex on things I mostly don't think he's guilty of (bullying?) and felt like lip-service.

There's some Bard/UK stuff up there I only skimmed over because I don't have much time this morning, will glance at it later and see if there's anything I need to comment on.