Author Topic: Yume Nikki Mafia - Waking 2  (Read 87479 times)

Kanako Yasaka

Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #120 on: May 17, 2009, 04:16:37 AM »
It does, actually. First, you coach scum when you tell them WHY someone looks town. Secondly, you give them a laundry list of targets if more people agree (though this is a lesser concern). You notice I tend to avoid saying who is probably town in my analyses. It still shows, but I don't explain why (Ok, well, it's something I'm trying actually)
Ah, I get it now. It gives a list of people for scum to target as to get rid of townier looking townies instead of the scummier ones. Thanks for clearing that up.

?lice Bl?ckb?rn

  • The real Alice Blackbarn!
  • *
  • "OH DESIRE"
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #121 on: May 17, 2009, 04:24:02 AM »
My apologies, today was made of watching Europe's horrible affront to music followed by assignments. Catching up, will post in about an hour.
"Oh, great. Another game where I get screwed by Kilga." ~ Carthrat

LHCling

  • Metang@
  • ( 。゚ 3っ   )っ
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #122 on: May 17, 2009, 04:43:43 AM »
onto Beilos~

I thought I covered this in my last post, but let me say it here. Fong's Gambit does nothing besides get you lynched. Everyone here recognizes it, and everyone here, regardless of their affiliation, will want you lynched for it. The only way this would work is if your were scum and someone was protecting you for no reason - hence my original suspicion of Roukanken.
You've given me a strange nickname over a nickname (which is, incidentally over another nickname) already.

Fong's Gambit is too popular (well-known) to be used effectively. The options that occurred to me at the start were:

-Let random votes fly
-(somehow) generate discussion on D1

Both options were just as random as each other, in terms of the impact it would have on the game. It isn't hard to determine which option was chosen. I seem to have accidentally used the gambit without realizing it, it seems [as it is my first game here; I was unaware of the complications it causes].


Quote from: UK
Affinity and Baity indeed need to post.
Quote from: UK
Baity, I'm not sure about but still lean scum on, and he's trying to WoT his way out.
...I thought I covered everything already? Rereading to see if I missed anything.

And there's probably something wrong with what I just wrote. Guess I'll have to double check that after coming back in a few moments.
[16:25] <Kuruminut> Shut up MS Word, "fangirlism" is totally a word
<>
[07:59] <Sapz> ベーティさんは馬鹿っぽいだろう、この「っぽい」好き者

?lice Bl?ckb?rn

  • The real Alice Blackbarn!
  • *
  • "OH DESIRE"
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #123 on: May 17, 2009, 05:28:42 AM »
Before anyone asks, I am a fan of two lynches. At best, 3, but that's only if we have 3 solid cases by the end of today. However, 3 lynches does give the advantage that it will out any scum who try to ninjalynch someone, if they decide to try that, which will give us an easy target for D2.

Quote from: Roukanken
It's not waffling, it's pointing out that Baity's 'Maybe I want more votes, you reminded me of my role' could be a softclaim. Had anyone else mentioned that?
Yeah, seems like a pretty glaring softclaim to me. Seems that only you and KY picked up on it, though. I do have to wonder what BaitySM is thinking, though.

@Serp: Voting Affinity for an attempted bus by BaitySM only makes sense if BaitySM is necessarily scum

Pesco is being about as hateful as he was in the last game, and he was scum then. Need less fluff and more scumhunting. I love this post, because it's so hypocritical that it's rather silly.

@KY: I'm still not seeing the Affinity case. What reasoning do you have that he is trying to "intimidate" BaitySM instead of simply genuinely believing that he may, in fact, be potentially scum?

@UK: This post is pure IIoA. You've done a nice job summarizing the game, but there is no analysis in this post whatsoever. So what was the point of poasting it in the first place?

@Zakeri:
Quote from: Zakeri
The Aggressive nature is awkward, but what I see here is a complete flip from his actions in Workers Union. I'm not considering this the ultimate town tell for Pesco (I've put him lower than affinity) but it's enough for me to regard him as town sided.
Really? Because I'm seeing the same damn thing. Maybe he isn't pulling lyncher/lynchee arguments out of his arse, and maybe he isn't being a fluffypillowfactorypoaster, but on the other hand he's still trying to actively discredit Rou based off of...ad-hominem? and isn't doing much scumhunting otherwise.

Ultimately I'm pretty sure that KY is Town and that Serp is (ultimately misguided) Town. BaitySM I'm not too sure about at the moment, but I'm leaning Town based off the opinion that noobscum would likely not try to needlessly attract attention to themselves like this, nor would they make such silly and convoluted mistakes. Nevertheless, I am fine with him being one of today's lynches if no better targets can be found.

Edible and Kiro both need to exist and I want to hear their opinions on what has been happening lately. Especially Kiro's opinion. Affinity needs to elaborate. People need to post PbpA's that consider all players, not just the 5 active ones at the moment. I extremely dislike UK's method of posting which is very strongly IIoA. Finally, I'm not sure what to make of PesRou, though if any of them are scum, it's pesco.

Finally, my vote atm is best-served sitting on pesco:
##Vote: pesco47
Other than Rou, what are your opinions on other players? Which 3 are most likely to be scum and why?

Finally the remaining lurkers all need to exist. I dislike the fact that a lot of them (myself included!) have managed to slip under the radar for this long and I'm pretty sure that at least one of the lurkers is very likely to be scum atm.
"Oh, great. Another game where I get screwed by Kilga." ~ Carthrat

Kanako Yasaka

Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #124 on: May 17, 2009, 05:48:12 AM »
@KY: I'm still not seeing the Affinity case. What reasoning do you have that he is trying to "intimidate" BaitySM instead of simply genuinely believing that he may, in fact, be potentially scum?
It was really the best thing I had at the moment, before the Rou/Pesco stuff started popping up. I'll unvote if I find a better case after I reread, which will have to be tomorrow morning since I'm pretty tired right now.

Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #125 on: May 17, 2009, 05:50:07 AM »
@Baity:

Quote
I have no evidence you're even scum to begin with.

Well, no that's not the point.  You said that you found me slightly scummy.  Why. 

Also, you don't seem to know who is scum at the moment, which is rather bad.  All your actions thus far, I would argue, have been purely defensive, which is rather bad as it entails that you don't know who the scum are.

---

@Serp:

Since your vote on me is dependent on Baity being scum, then why don't you vote him first?  I understand the sudden vote drop, but that is for Baity to explain and not me.

---

@Kanguya:

Quote
Otherwise, very nice.

Quote
You're looking slightly more scummy with the constant arguing but still probably town.

Quote
Your recent post is very good, would like to see more. Most likely town.

Quote
Like I said before, he could be intimidating baity in an attempt to make him more paranoid than he already is.

Quote
Very good points about Baity/Affinity. From what I've seen, probably town. Then again this is just from what I've seen on early day one.

##Unvote
##Vote: Kanguya

Horrible IIoA.  There is not the slightest backing behind any of your opinions which is really horrible and arbitary.  The only actual judgments you actually put forward are 'good' and 'bad', and 'switch Affinity with Rou', with nothing of contributory worth.  Smacks of active lurking, and of trying to get under the radar with half-hearted opinions such as the quotes above.  Not to mention handholding  and piggybacking of people such as Serp and Zak.  Also, I feel that Serp's point against me isn't that strong, and I don't see you pointing out it's exact merits.  Also note that word 'could' in the last quote, which smacks of fortune telling and WIFOM.

---

@pesco:

I agree with Rou on this issue.  You should answer directly to his argument about your method of attack instead of going off-tangent like this.  Also, a little tunnely, which I disapprove of.

---

@Roukanken:

I would consider that being reactionary to the extent of self-vote is scummy in itself.  The analysis in the case at that time (e.g reactionary self-vote) is really already implicit in the accusation since it occurs so commonly that I don't need to explciitly put it in.  I would say that it was also better than any other vote I could place, since he was the most scummy then.

Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #126 on: May 17, 2009, 06:37:33 AM »
Quote
Really? Because I'm seeing the same damn thing. Maybe he isn't pulling lyncher/lynchee arguments out of his arse, and maybe he isn't being a fluffypillowfactorypoaster, but on the other hand he's still trying to actively discredit Rou based off of...ad-hominem?
I'll admit, I wasn't there until after Pesco was lynched, but It seems more than a few people are disputing the idea that Pesco has changed.

In any case, thanks to multi-track lynching, I have nothing against the votes on Pesco.

Quote
Ultimately I'm pretty sure that KY is Town and that Serp is (ultimately misguided) Town.
What has Serp done that you would feel has been wrong?

Quote
-Let random votes fly
-(somehow) generate discussion on D1

Both options were just as random as each other, in terms of the impact it would have on the game. It isn't hard to determine which option was chosen. I seem to have accidentally used the gambit without realizing it, it seems [as it is my first game here; I was unaware of the complications it causes].

We really need to put up a warning against self voting in all of these threads.

I always seem to have this problem of being completely and absolutely wrong in my analysis, so I'm going to go ahead and reread everything even though it's only page five.

Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #127 on: May 17, 2009, 06:39:58 AM »
Edit: I have to wait until tomorrow. Apparently, the D&D game is up again, which means I only have 8 hours until it starts in the morning @_@;

?lice Bl?ckb?rn

  • The real Alice Blackbarn!
  • *
  • "OH DESIRE"
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #128 on: May 17, 2009, 07:17:46 AM »
What has Serp done that you would feel has been wrong?
In case my post didn't make it abundantly clear already, it was for voting Affinity due to an action BaitySM did when BaitySM's alignment is still not yet guaranteed to be scum.
"Oh, great. Another game where I get screwed by Kilga." ~ Carthrat

Kiro

  • Drinks: Everything
  • Sleeps: Anywhere
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #129 on: May 17, 2009, 07:26:25 AM »
Rou is way too easily goaded by Pesco and I can see Pesco do it to try to get a read on Rou. I'm reasonably sure Pesco has started most of his recent games with some sort of dig on Rou, but he's continued to press Rou a little harder this game. My interpretation of it actually leans more to Town Pesco than Scum Pesco right now.

I like Pesco's #86 on Rou for a few points: mainly the waffle on Baity being a power role which is like an indirect fish and Rou getting caught up over the details about dice. It's pretty pointless and Pesco only voted Baity at first because he felt like it (#41). Baity reacted strongly to it and his self vote can go either way (#44). The intricacies of the dice don't even begin until (#46-49). The problem now with Rou seems to be that he charges at Pesco for the stuff regarding #46-49 when Pesco didn't vote Baity specifically for that. Even if Pesco intentionally picked on the new guy, there's no guarantee he could have made anything out of it depending on Baity's reaction. In other words, I think Rou is tunneling and potential misrep more than Pesco.

As for Rou, I could see a Scum Rou trying to play victim to Pesco's bullying to get passed off as Town. The flipping the question around in #56 feels like a false scenario or something like that (probably didn't use the right words for it). Why are you trying to prove something in Baity's defense? I did not get good vibes with that post. Mentioning the softclaim like you say in #93 when it was that obvious is taboo in my book because it feels like fishing.

If you'd notice, I'm also relatively suspicious of Baity (as I've said previously). The point is that the reasons you're attacking him for are relatively poor (FPMH, dice hax...), and bad attacks are in my opinion worse than bad play since that's how scum get Townies lynched.

I actually did not catch any notion of this in any of your posts because the way you go after Pesco and ignore Baity after pointing out his softclaim makes me feel like you think he's a Town PR. See also "defense of Baity" point I made above. So if you are suspicious of Baity, how do you see this fitting in with your suspicions about Pesco being scum? Also, the reason you're seeing Pesco's case on Baity as a bad attack is because YOU are making it out to be as such. Pesco was making small talk to Baity after his self vote, but as far as I can see, Baity currently has the most votes and the reason is not because of dice, it's because of the self vote. So how is Pesco's attack particularly worse than any of the other Baity voters?

2. Attempt to fish out a few people (as a case; I have to start somewhere...).

Voting to improve my self-image? See above. And below, just below this.

Let me put it this way. I'd rather try to sacrifice myself to take out at least 1 scum by evidence, rather than rely on PR's. My self-voting is only temporary, and I will address the reasoning to my switch accordingly.

When you read those 3 sentences, you're saying it was to generate discussion, but there's still more to it and you'll explain when necessary? I think I will go out on a limb and say... explain it now. You're being way too coy about it, but let's face it, it's kind of the unspoken burning question several of us have at the moment. Be up front about what you're doing now so we can determine if you're not worth being one of the at least 2 people to be lynched today. Cuz you definitely are at the moment and it gives us time to regroup and pursue other avenues if needed.

Man, so out of this entire post, all I really got out of it is that I've got a bad feeling about Rou and Baity. I could flipflop on Rou and Pesco, but I'm getting a weird vibe from Rou more than Pesco, the latter whom is obnoxious only to Rou so the current hate for Pesco on that point seems a bit misguided imo. Other than that:

##Unvote Pesco47
##Vote Roukanken

And question to Pesco: please clarify your current stance on Baity given some of the recent developments. And let's say if you are confident about Baity being Scum and that enough other people are voting for Baity, who would you switch your vote to as the second lynch of Day 1?

Kiro

  • Drinks: Everything
  • Sleeps: Anywhere
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #130 on: May 17, 2009, 07:34:05 AM »
Oh right, I'll check the thread again in the morning, then I'll be out all day again. Working on a class project.

Pesco

  • Trickster Rabbit Tewi
  • *
  • Make a yukkuri and take it easy with me
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #131 on: May 17, 2009, 08:29:37 AM »
Let me answer as best as I can here with my limited phone view.

@ UK: Which and why of Rou's points are the good ones and which ones are bad? Lay them out in chronological order for me, Rou should do it too (which ones are the good ones in his opinion).

@ Alice: You've already addressed UK's lack of content and lurkers. I find her post to KY about coaching quite silly as that's exactly what she's doing herself. Edible has pulled a clean fence sit with his post, also adding nothing to the pot. Baity and KY's responses have been all round unsatisfactory. KY doing a lot of piggybacking and no independent posting (i.e. without prompting). Baity lacking sensible replies. Mr Alert needs to post more than asking what FPMH is.

Lurkerscum would be Edible or Alert as of now. UK, KY and Baity are independently suspicious.

@ Affinity: I'll need to see Rou's points set out clearly to respond. They've been founded on the dice misrep as far as I can tell and I regard those as worthless.

Alice 128: Baity's alignment is pretty irrelevant to the conclusion you've drawn because I don't see much of a downside to scumAffinity's position there.

Pesco

  • Trickster Rabbit Tewi
  • *
  • Make a yukkuri and take it easy with me
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #132 on: May 17, 2009, 08:56:18 AM »
@Kiro: Stuff on Baity responded to in the above post.

For a second lynch, UK looks like a good avenue, outlined above.

Carthrat

  • HITLER OF LURKERS
  • MEIN MAIDENKAMPF
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #133 on: May 17, 2009, 08:59:26 AM »
Pesco and Rou are way too loud and in each other's face over what seemed fairly trivial shit back on page 2. For extra points, Rou turned around and complained that nobody else was talking. That wasn't really true, it's just that the both of you are really overbearing.

Rou's barely addressed what was spoken by people other than Pesco and can't seem to keep a clear head. Complaining about the lack of anyone else... doesn't work for me when he buys so thoroughly into Pesco's snarkiness.

Pesco is unhappiness as well for joining in these excruciating rants. Baiting Rou is sort of uncool. Being generally snipy is sort of uncool. Acting the victim later is also pretty weird when his posts are so *obviously* meant to inflame.

UK talked up a big ol rambly post and then voted for Baity, resident dude who clearly isn't up to scratch with Mafia... OR IS HE, since he seems to know Fong's gambit exists and thus should really have known what a massive fucking waste of time it always is. Yeah I don't like him much either.

Anyone making statements to the effect of 'xyz is clearly town' has themselves clearly not played any game at all, ever, where scum has won. People making these statements themselves are universally bad to me (sup, KY, Edible).

<->

Serpentarius's comments on the fight between Rou and Pesco are, however, the biggest alarm I've got. He's sort of staying on the sidelines, injecting with vauge 'you're both being stupid' comments.

Quote from: Serp
None of the statements I haven't responded to seem unusually scummy to me, and I'm sure as heck not going to defend them in your place, so as far as I'm concerned, you two can just continue to go at each other.

Weirdest thing I've seen. Serp's vote on Affinity for something *Baity* did is already strange; compounding it with '...and you guys just keep fighting, I have no opinion' is equally bizzare. No comment on anything Affinity himself has actually said, either. Yeah, I'm not seeing why people are calling him protown.

##Vote: Serpentarius

<->

Misc. shit

@UK: Hey now I resent being told that gaming the setup's bad, it's won games in the past. Early day one, nothing else to do, at least it's something to talk about.

@Mod: I was voting for Alice, y'know. Since like page one.

@Everyone: Do people write these walls because they think they're obligated to, or because they don't realise how horribly painful they are to read? For god's sake, there's not even that much to talk about! >:(

<->

tl;dr voted Serp, don't like Rou/Pesco argument, don't like Baity, don't like people who are guessing who's town instead of who's scum.

Serp

  • It's all about overwhelming force and irresistible style
  • And in a pinch, style can slide
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #134 on: May 17, 2009, 09:05:05 AM »
Alright, some new posts to respond to, and a couple of hours of sleep to give me a fresh view on some re-reads.  Let me put together some impressions.

@Serp: Voting Affinity for an attempted bus by BaitySM only makes sense if BaitySM is necessarily scum

I don't think it's far-fetched.  If we find a reasonably plausible scenario that links two or three players as scum, I say we try to lynch them all.  Going after several unrelated suspected scum gives us the advantage that we clean up several leads at once, but going after a group of apparently coherent scum makes it a lot harder for any of them to escape a lynching, in case our suspicions are correct.  I favor the latter.

That said, I've been increasingly unsatisfied with my Affinity vote since I placed it, though your defense of him has been noted.  By keeping it, I was mostly just hoping to provoke an interesting response.

##Unvote

Quote from: Alice Margatroid
Finally the remaining lurkers all need to exist. I dislike the fact that a lot of them (myself included!) have managed to slip under the radar for this long and I'm pretty sure that at least one of the lurkers is very likely to be scum atm.

Agreed.  If some players continue to fail their existence checks, I'll be wanting to put some pressure on them.  Carthrat hasn't been saying enough for my liking (Ninja'd), and neither has Mr Alert.  Edible's posts haven't had much substance either.

Re-reading Baity, it still looks like a panicking newbie, and perhaps a bit more scummy than townie.  This issue's been beaten into the ground.  At the moment, I'd support a Baity lynch, if it came down to it.  He'll need to do some exceptionally good posting to get off my blacklist.

Re-reading Roukanken v. Pesco, it looks to me like Pesco is just being an ass.  Whether that's normal for him or not, I don't know, since I've only seen scum-Pesco in my history here.  Still, I've seen townie players use abrasiveness to great effect before, so I won't consider it a scumtell.  I still don't blame Roukanken for putting pressure on him, though.  Since we have the luxury of a multi-lynch, I won't object to a Pesco lynch, as long as no one else has become significantly more scummy by the deadline (lurkers, I'm looking at you).

Zakeri, UK, Kiro, and Alice all look more or less fine to me.  They all seem to be making an honest effort.

As for who else looks scummy right now, I'm tired of Kanguya Yaraisan humping my leg.  Only the scum know who's definitely townie, and objectively speaking, I don't see how I've done anything to warrant that kind of trust.

##Vote Kanguya Yaraisan
[15:13] <Sana> >:<

Pesco

  • Trickster Rabbit Tewi
  • *
  • Make a yukkuri and take it easy with me
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #135 on: May 17, 2009, 09:13:48 AM »
ITT Carthrat hates everyone.What a narcissist.

Give a while to read Serp and Affinity in isolation.

LHCling

  • Metang@
  • ( 。゚ 3っ   )っ
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #136 on: May 17, 2009, 09:13:58 AM »
When you read those 3 sentences, you're saying it was to generate discussion, but there's still more to it and you'll explain when necessary? I think I will go out on a limb and say... explain it now. You're being way too coy about it, but let's face it, it's kind of the unspoken burning question several of us have at the moment. Be up front about what you're doing now so we can determine if you're not worth being one of the at least 2 people to be lynched today. Cuz you definitely are at the moment and it gives us time to regroup and pursue other avenues if needed.
Before I start, ##Unvote (seriously, I forgot about unvoting myself after my post in the morning).

What I am (trying) to do:

-Make myself look so much like scum, that you'll waver it off, because nobody plays like that... (save for me in this game, I hope) >_>
-From that, survive lynching round of D1 (very unlikely at this point).
-Survive N1.
-...(insert future plan here). Hopefully, I get to pull something out at this point.

To explain the first point, allow me to retaliate with, "Why would it be beneficial for a scum to put themselves upfront like this?" (i.e. why would a scum member make themselves look scummy?)

Surely, after reading my first point, it could make you pass off as a townie, but the fact that it didn't work as the majority have casted suspicion on me proves that this is arguably one of the stupidest things scum can do. Further, I can say with great confidence that (almost? Rou might've had the idea that I was.) nobody thought of this.

In short;

High-risk, low-reward if done by scum (you're probably better off shutting up and blending with the crowd)
High-risk, variable-reward if done by townie. Depends on what I can do if I survive.

Easy enough to comprehend? And with this, chances are if I survive D1, I'll die N1 now that I had to explain the entire strategy I have.


@Baity:

Well, no that's not the point.  You said that you found me slightly scummy.  Why. 

Also, you don't seem to know who is scum at the moment, which is rather bad.  All your actions thus far, I would argue, have been purely defensive, which is rather bad as it entails that you don't know who the scum are.
Keyword; slightly. Like 2%. (Very Weak) Reason?

Quote
Also, he seems to thinking that excluding one's self from the random dice roll is scummy (which it isn't), and that self-voting is actually townie (which it isn't); which hints at paranoia.  Being this early in the game, I don't think that's valid town-beaviour.
Categorizing behavior. Over the internet, it's quite easy to initially lie your way through. However, as the game goes on, it gets harder and harder to lie, as there is a greater amount of information you have to check over, using your lies to create other lies (or distorted truths, whatever you prefer). In short, I simply disagree to your justification that I was a non-townie at this point (i.e. the very start).

Oh, and I never even thought self-voting would be considered townie. I thought the exact opposite; it would make me look like scum (see: above for reason).


I'm still working on that scum-list (as per request by Alice).
Author's note: effing internet.
[16:25] <Kuruminut> Shut up MS Word, "fangirlism" is totally a word
<>
[07:59] <Sapz> ベーティさんは馬鹿っぽいだろう、この「っぽい」好き者

?lice Bl?ckb?rn

  • The real Alice Blackbarn!
  • *
  • "OH DESIRE"
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #137 on: May 17, 2009, 09:19:40 AM »
What I am (trying) to do:

-Make myself look so much like scum, that you'll waver it off, because nobody plays like that... (save for me in this game, I hope) >_>
-From that, survive lynching round of D1 (very unlikely at this point).
-Survive N1.
-...(insert future plan here). Hopefully, I get to pull something out at this point.
First off, I doubt you'll ever manage to make yourself look as obvscum as wrathie >_>. That being said, how does this master plan of yours benefit Town? Your plans for survival make sense in this frame of logic, but if they're not coupled with active scumhunting, then what's the point?

Also:
Quote from: BaitySM
To explain the first point, allow me to retaliate with, "Why would it be beneficial for a scum to put themselves upfront like this?" (i.e. why would a scum member make themselves look scummy?)
WIFOM. Also I've seen this used to great effect by Kilga in Bamboo Forest Mafia once to secure a massive amount of mis-lynches in the next couple days. So...yeah.

Basically I want you to stop focussing so much on defending yourself and focus moar on finding (potential) scum. The best defence on D1 is a fakeclaim of doctoran offence on someone whom you think is scummier than you, and whom you also can convince others is scummier than you.
"Oh, great. Another game where I get screwed by Kilga." ~ Carthrat

Serp

  • It's all about overwhelming force and irresistible style
  • And in a pinch, style can slide
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #138 on: May 17, 2009, 09:24:50 AM »
And to respond to Carthrat's accusation:

Serpentarius's comments on the fight between Rou and Pesco are, however, the biggest alarm I've got. He's sort of staying on the sidelines, injecting with vauge 'you're both being stupid' comments.

Quite the opposite.  My whole point is that neither of them seem really scummy to me, but I don't mind them squeezing each other and seeing if something scummy pops out.  They're both playing smart, as I see it.  At this stage in the game, you can agree with people's methods without agreeing with their votes.

Quote from: Carthrat
Weirdest thing I've seen. Serp's vote on Affinity for something *Baity* did is already strange; compounding it with '...and you guys just keep fighting, I have no opinion' is equally bizzare. No comment on anything Affinity himself has actually said, either. Yeah, I'm not seeing why people are calling him protown.

I think I explained my reasoning pretty well in the post you ninja'd.  If one being scum implies that the other is scum, I favor going after them both, since multi-lynch is an option.  That's why I placed the vote in the first place - I kept it 'cause Affinity hadn't shown up to defend himself yet. 

Quote from: Carthrat
@Everyone: Do people write these walls because they think they're obligated to, or because they don't realise how horribly painful they are to read? For god's sake, there's not even that much to talk about! >:(

When someone posts a wall of text, that makes something to talk about, leading to more walls of text, which lead to more stuff to talk about.  Apparently it's a self-reinforcing phenomenon.

Ninja'd again:

Quote from: Pesco47
ITT Carthrat hates everyone.What a narcissist.

That only counts as narcissism if love is a zero-sum game.

Quote from: BaitySM
To explain the first point, allow me to retaliate with, "Why would it be beneficial for a scum to put themselves upfront like this?" (i.e. why would a scum member make themselves look scummy?)

Surely, after reading my first point, it could make you pass off as a townie, but the fact that it didn't work as the majority have casted suspicion on me proves that this is arguably one of the stupidest things scum can do. Further, I can say with great confidence that (almost? Rou might've had the idea that I was.) nobody thought of this.

Uh, damn.  Do I really need to respond to this?  You really aren't helping your case, Baity.  Even aside from the fact that looking too scummy to lynch is a stupid tactic from a selfish perspective, you also end up screwing with the town and forcing them to spend half a day trying to figure out what the hell you're trying to do.  If you're actually town, you've basically made a gigantic diversion of yourself for the scum to hide behind.
[15:13] <Sana> >:<

Pesco

  • Trickster Rabbit Tewi
  • *
  • Make a yukkuri and take it easy with me
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #139 on: May 17, 2009, 09:34:48 AM »
Why is Alice handwaving bad play? Baity's post is just really...go die. It's not like expression in English is a problem for him. Moreover the WIFOM of his posts is best dispelled by removing the cause. He's staying as a lynch today.

Carthrat

  • HITLER OF LURKERS
  • MEIN MAIDENKAMPF
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #140 on: May 17, 2009, 09:39:29 AM »
Everything Baity says is WIFOM wtfness. NOW he is acting like clueless scum more than clueless town, since as far as I can tell, voting yourself is a high-risk no-reward activity. At best... everyone ignores you forever. I'm sure we can strive for higher things that won't drive town into a fit come endgame.

Definate lynch candidate. Further explanation unecessary.

Serp: Affinity/Baity thing.. eh, I guess. I'm wondering what your present stance on 'the best two' is, right now. What two would you lynch if it's up to you?

Serp

  • It's all about overwhelming force and irresistible style
  • And in a pinch, style can slide
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #141 on: May 17, 2009, 09:49:29 AM »
Serp: Affinity/Baity thing.. eh, I guess. I'm wondering what your present stance on 'the best two' is, right now. What two would you lynch if it's up to you?

Right now?  BaitySadismMasochism and KY personal lubricant.  Despite what I said about maybe going for a triple lynch earlier, I feel strongly enough about those two that I'd favor putting six votes on each, if it were up to me.
[15:13] <Sana> >:<

FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
  • *
  • blub blub nya
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #142 on: May 17, 2009, 11:24:08 AM »
Alright, massive WoT incoming. Will summarise my points in a tl;dr EBWOP afterwards for all you lazy bastards who won't bother reading this.

KY, give us more hunting rather than telling us who looks Town please. In particular:
Quote from: KY
Serpentarius- Undoubtably town. Great scumhunting and nothing remotely fishy.
What exactly is this? I've already brought up the whole 'Hey, neither of you look particuarly town/scum, so instead of contributing I'll just let you blab about each other' point, so saying there's 'nothing remotely fishy' is sort of jumping to a conclusion.

Quote from: Edible
Gut says both pesco and Rou are scum.  This play off of each other seems forced; I'm not feeling town bouncing off of town here.

I'd place Serp and Carth as working for the good of town.  Baity reminds me of Sol in 9squad, newbie who bit off more than he could chew.

UK is actually paying attention this game.  KY is trying harder than usual.  Kiro and Alice, uh... well, they exist?
Thanks for all the reasoning you've supplied for your suspicions, Edible.

Quote from: Zakeri
I will admit it's occurred to me that Affinity hadn't done anything more than provide a generic opinion behind a vote, but he's provided that much at least. We should waiting to see that Beilos flips town before holding it against him since if Beilos is scum it becomes a moot point.
So making a poor case is okay if it lynches scum? Whatever happened to bussing?

Quote from: Serpentarius
I don't think it's a distraction.  The chance might be the same or better if you were to start picking someone else apart (which is precisely what you're aiming to do now, right?), or it could be worse.  Do I think you and Pesco are worth suspicion?  Absolutely, but just not really any more than anyone else at the moment, and neither more than the other.
Here's what gets me - you manage to say that I'm both suspicious and not suspicious.
And are you honestly saying that there's no-one else you'd rather question and thus you're going to sit and watch two players give arguments that don't convince you? That's, at best, sheer laziness.

Quote from: UncertainKitten
Rou, you are going to lose on the vote reason. The d12 thing was added later from what I read. I also don't think point by point will get anywhere. Probably both of you should organize defenses/attacks and take them as a whole. Because some of your scumtells are basically junk (such as the one I mentioned), while there appear to be a couple good ones hidden amongst them
I never claimed he voted Baity based on 2d6, I got mad at him when he pointed it out later. Why does a point have to be presented at the start of the case to be flawed?

Quote
Rou, I wouldn't have entertained that either. If he wins because he was lynched, it would be bullshit anyway and since most of the time a jester is just RFG'd, I'd just say "Good job winning with a bullshit role. Let's play mafia now"
If the typical 'no roles with lynch as win condition' rule was there I'd have given it no further thought, but it was conspicuously missing so I panicked. I apologise.

Quote from: BaitySM
Fong's Gambit is too popular (well-known) to be used effectively. The options that occurred to me at the start were:

-Let random votes fly
-(somehow) generate discussion on D1

Both options were just as random as each other, in terms of the impact it would have on the game. It isn't hard to determine which option was chosen. I seem to have accidentally used the gambit without realizing it, it seems [as it is my first game here; I was unaware of the complications it causes].
You know, there are better ways to generate discussion than self-voting, such as, say, developing a genuine case against another player rather than a jokevote. >_>
And if it wasn't intended as Fong's Gambit, what exactly was it meant to do?

Quote from: Affinity
I would consider that being reactionary to the extent of self-vote is scummy in itself.  The analysis in the case at that time (e.g reactionary self-vote) is really already implicit in the accusation since it occurs so commonly that I don't need to explciitly put it in.  I would say that it was also better than any other vote I could place, since he was the most scummy then.
So there was nothing new to talk about, no original analysis to produce? It's just a clear-cut 'Selfvote obvscum see you on D2'?

Quote from: Kiro
The problem now with Rou seems to be that he charges at Pesco for the stuff regarding #46-49 when Pesco didn't vote Baity specifically for that.
FPMH is an initial suspicion which either stays or goes based on later posts. He KEPT IT ON based on the dice and the self-vote.

Quote from: Kiro
The flipping the question around in #56 feels like a false scenario or something like that (probably didn't use the right words for it). Why are you trying to prove something in Baity's defense? I did not get good vibes with that post.
I don't even understand this point. Pesco's argument for Baity being scum was that claiming he rolled 2d6 and then selfvoting was all part of some master plan. I asked him to give one possible legitimate example to prove he wasn't BSing and he failed to provide.

Quote from: Kiro
I actually did not catch any notion of this in any of your posts because the way you go after Pesco and ignore Baity after pointing out his softclaim makes me feel like you think he's a Town PR. See also "defense of Baity" point I made above. So if you are suspicious of Baity, how do you see this fitting in with your suspicions about Pesco being scum?
Quick bus to make Pesco look good and stop him from being the classical MotK policy lynch.
I'd have been able to be more verbal about my suspicions of Baity had he actually SAID SOMETHING USEFUL.

Quote from: Pesco47
I'll need to see Rou's points set out clearly to respond. They've been founded on the dice misrep as far as I can tell and I regard those as worthless.
THIS IS NOT MISREP. It's not as if I'm claiming you said something you didn't, and while it may not have been your initial reasoning for voting Baity it was easily your weakest reason.

Quote from: Carthrat
Rou's barely addressed what was spoken by people other than Pesco and can't seem to keep a clear head. Complaining about the lack of anyone else... doesn't work for me when he buys so thoroughly into Pesco's snarkiness.
Forgive me for finding it annoying when people have no objection to Pesco's ad-hominem attacks on me. Seriously, he's MotK's resident Draco in Leather Pants.

Quote from: Serpentarius
I don't think it's far-fetched.  If we find a reasonably plausible scenario that links two or three players as scum, I say we try to lynch them all.  Going after several unrelated suspected scum gives us the advantage that we clean up several leads at once, but going after a group of apparently coherent scum makes it a lot harder for any of them to escape a lynching, in case our suspicions are correct.  I favor the latter.
But if our suspicions of said group are wrong, there's a good chance we'll lynch nothing but Townies.
And if we can make several of these plausible scenarios and lynch one player from each, that cuts down our suspicions considerably. Putting all our eggs in one basket is insanely risky.

Quote from: Serp
Re-reading Roukanken v. Pesco, it looks to me like Pesco is just being an ass.  Whether that's normal for him or not, I don't know, since I've only seen scum-Pesco in my history here.  Still, I've seen townie players use abrasiveness to great effect before, so I won't consider it a scumtell.
Do you see ANYTHING as a scumtell? I find it hard to believe that you honestly don't see anything as worth commenting on in this argument for one side or the other.

Quote from: BaitySM
-Make myself look so much like scum, that you'll waver it off, because nobody plays like that... (save for me in this game, I hope) >_>
Isn't this the inverted Too Townie fallacy? "You're so scummy, you must be Town?"
Seriously, deliberately acting scummy is HORRENDOUS Town play. Colour me severely unconvinced.

Quote from: BaitySM
Surely, after reading my first point, it could make you pass off as a townie, but the fact that it didn't work as the majority have casted suspicion on me proves that this is arguably one of the stupidest things scum can do. Further, I can say with great confidence that (almost? Rou might've had the idea that I was.) nobody thought of this.
Baity, as much as I hate to break it to you Stupid Scum =/= Smart Town. Sometimes it's just Stupid Scum.

Quote from: Serpentarius
Quite the opposite.  My whole point is that neither of them seem really scummy to me, but I don't mind them squeezing each other and seeing if something scummy pops out.  They're both playing smart, as I see it.  At this stage in the game, you can agree with people's methods without agreeing with their votes.
Serp, I find your lack of an actual opinion annoying. You have your own suspects for scum, correct? If so, fight about them, argue your side of the debate. Don't sit back and let other people do the work for you - scumhunt, dammit.

Quote from: Serp
I think I explained my reasoning pretty well in the post you ninja'd.  If one being scum implies that the other is scum, I favor going after them both, since multi-lynch is an option.  That's why I placed the vote in the first place - I kept it 'cause Affinity hadn't shown up to defend himself yet.
Where, anywhere in that post, did you raise this idea? Are you trying to say that we're either both scum or neither scum now? Honestly, why is wringing an opinion out of you so hard?

FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
  • *
  • blub blub nya
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #143 on: May 17, 2009, 11:24:22 AM »
tl;dr:

Pesco is being irritating and is using the attack from me as an excuse to not scumhunt. I admit after a good night's sleep that I spent too much time arguing with him to look at the occasional posts from other players, but I'm still not convinced that he's town. First and foremost, I want him to scumhunt like a good little Townie.

Baity is a horrible case. Your self-vote is an enormous WIFOM, and you haven't actually done any hunting because you've spent all your time defending yourself. Definite lynch today.

Serp is being as neutral as Switzerland, and that infuriates me. Leaving an argument to boil over without supplying any sort of opinion means you effectively leave finding the scum to other players, which is bad Town play.

KY is also pretty horrible for spending more of his limited time clearing people than accusing them. His complete clear of Serp annoys me, along with his earlier paradox in that he was fine with Serp not having an opinion on Pesco/Me but suspected Pesco. What?

Edible reminds me of why I always did so badly in my English essays at school - I'd say 'this poem makes us feel X, Y and Z' without really explaining why. That's exactly what Edible's doing here - 'I suspect X, Y and Z' with no evidence. Want to see something useful from him, preferably in the next 24 hours.

Alert needs to exist, full stop.

UK:
Quote
I've read a lot of the rest of what's been posted, but haven't found much to comment on. My brain is a little fried anyway.
T_T

Zakeri:
Quote
I always seem to have this problem of being completely and absolutely wrong in my analysis, so I'm going to go ahead and reread everything even though it's only page five.
Why are you outright saying 'I might be wrong with this'? It feels like giving yourself an escape route if you get proven wrong.

Alice needs to say more, as always. In particular, why the clear of Baity? Noobscum are basically easy to catch because they, you know, act like scum.

A point that no-one's raised so far - in Kiro's latest (and at this point, only) WoT he mentions me, Pesco and Baity. Nothing about the other 9 players. He mentioned KY once in his other post in the game so far, but that's it. I remember him being a lot more open in Worker's Union, and so some opinions on the remainder of the players would be appreciated.

Affinity has picked up a little by giving a case on KY, so I'm not as suspicious of him as I was before.

Baity is the most obvious lynch right now. Acceptable second place targets are Pesco, Serp, KY and possibly Edible if he doesn't pick up.

LHCling

  • Metang@
  • ( 。゚ 3っ   )っ
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #144 on: May 17, 2009, 11:27:58 AM »
The author of this post would like to rant that their internet has disconnected 4 times while gathering evidence.
Also:WIFOM. Also I've seen this used to great effect by Kilga in Bamboo Forest Mafia once to secure a massive amount of mis-lynches in the next couple days. So...yeah.
Unfortunately, I've had no history of Mafia games here, so there's no way I would know that Kilga used it.

Uh, damn.  Do I really need to respond to this?
Don't respond to it.

Quote from: Serpentarius
You really aren't helping your case, Baity.  Even aside from the fact that looking too scummy to lynch is a stupid tactic from a selfish perspective, you also end up screwing with the town and forcing them to spend half a day trying to figure out what the hell you're trying to do.  If you're actually town, you've basically made a gigantic diversion of yourself for the scum to hide behind.
Yeah, I apologize for coming out with this a bit late. I had other matters to attend to, followed by a combination of mass + dinner.


---
WoT WARNING

Moving on, (expect repeated information to occur; I will try not to recite any other opinions that others have given, but it's expected to happen knowing me)

pesco accuses me of protecting Edible from the exclusion of my random selection;
Quote from: pesco47
Rolling a d12 compared to rolling 2d6 is the range of 1-12 and 2-12. You were excluding 2 players.
in an attempt to make me look more scummier than what I need to already be (in other words, using me as the diversion for himself). Though it could be play from either side of town, or scum knowing that I'm town and getting a free lynch.

Then denies it has anything to do with the claim of protection;
Quote from: pesco47
Read his post, he excluded himself and player 1, which means it's 2 players. More importantly, it's got nothing to do with why he's getting voted now.
The reason was assumed still FPMH. However, as the worst-case scenario appeared, more garbage posts came out. The result? Diversion from himself, attention towards me.

Also,
Quote from: Pesco47
Why would scum vote themselves? Because you would give them a free pass for it.
Note: I have no idea about who does what in each Mafia game. i.e. false accusation. Remember that I stated:
Might as well try something new. I've watched quite a few games before (on other forums and whatnot).
I also have not watched any games here.

Encourages 2nd option for lynch, probably thinking that there's enough dirt on me (i.e. opting for a multi-lynch for maximum effect):
Quote from: pesco47
Umm... You kinda do have to vote for us to take you for being remotely interested in the going ons of the day.

Even if you have nothing to say about Baity or Affinity, there are 10 players that you can talk about. People that you can definitely say stuff on: Carthrat, me, Rou, Serp and maybe Kiro.

*KY's post regarding my situation, and give or take a bit of content*
Quote from: pesco47
Things have developed since this post. What's your reads now?
Further pushing.

Quote from: pesco47
For a second lynch, UK looks like a good avenue, outlined above.
You might as well be going for a "lynch everybody". Like so:
Quote from: pesco47
Lurkerscum would be Edible or Alert as of now. UK, KY and Baity are independently suspicious.

And of course...,

-KY votes Affinity-
Quote from: pesco47
You can do better than that. Put some backbone into it.
Hmm... cover-up? This would be the only evidence (as of now) that Affinity is affiliated with pesco. However, I believe it to be attempting to redirect the vote to a more "convenient place", again going for a solid multi-lynch.

Yes, some parts are a bit "flawed", but that doesn't change the fact that he still manipulated (almost) everything (subtle or not) to his favor. And lying through one point.

##Vote pesco47

...
Oh joy, a WoT to read through.
[16:25] <Kuruminut> Shut up MS Word, "fangirlism" is totally a word
<>
[07:59] <Sapz> ベーティさんは馬鹿っぽいだろう、この「っぽい」好き者

LHCling

  • Metang@
  • ( 。゚ 3っ   )っ
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #145 on: May 17, 2009, 12:19:32 PM »
EBWOP:

Quote
You know, there are better ways to generate discussion than self-voting, such as, say, developing a genuine case against another player rather than a jokevote. >_>
And if it wasn't intended as Fong's Gambit, what exactly was it meant to do?
Mainly:
1. No Lynch is not an option (in this world). The fact that I can't trust my internet connection also adds to this.
At the point-in-time, there was essentially no case to work with.

2. Attempt to fish out a few people (as a case; I have to start somewhere...)
On the side, it was an unintentional (misinterpreted?) Gambit. While it might have seemed that I was after people who would vote for me after, it was actually directed at pesco.
Quote
Your self-voting biases me to assume the worst about you (i.e. Wrathie, he's a policy vig)
From that single line, I can only assume Wrathie... did something "unique"? Regardless, keyword in bold.
*insert easy target here*

...I'd read through the rest of it, but I need my sleep. Early lecture tomorrow. I'll probably add to this argument too, but I feel this needs to be put down now.
[16:25] <Kuruminut> Shut up MS Word, "fangirlism" is totally a word
<>
[07:59] <Sapz> ベーティさんは馬鹿っぽいだろう、この「っぽい」好き者

FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
  • *
  • blub blub nya
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #146 on: May 17, 2009, 12:41:52 PM »
Baity, I don't like how you're using 'it's my first time playing here' as your universal excuse for everything. You've said that you've played a few games elsewhere, so it should've been obvious from that that self-voting does little other than make yourself look worse. Surely that sort of response isn't player-specific?

This attack on Pesco feels sort of meh. Firstly this info's been out for a while, so only producing the attack NOW is iffy. Secondly, the whole thing seems to run off the assumption that Pesco is scum - instead of finding evidence and coming to a conclusion, you're coming to a conclusion and then looking for evidence to support it.

Quote from: BaitySM
From that single line, I can only assume Wrathie... did something "unique"?
Wrathie is a...strange player. English isn't his first language and so he makes some glaring errors there, and he's been known as being obvscum in almost every game he's played. Even when he's Town. He's also the only person I've ever seen self-vote during LYLO. >_>

Baity, a question for when you get back - who are your current suspects besides Pesco?

Serp

  • It's all about overwhelming force and irresistible style
  • And in a pinch, style can slide
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #147 on: May 17, 2009, 01:06:32 PM »
Here's what gets me - you manage to say that I'm both suspicious and not suspicious.
And are you honestly saying that there's no-one else you'd rather question and thus you're going to sit and watch two players give arguments that don't convince you? That's, at best, sheer laziness.

I'm saying that you're middling in suspicion.  That's not a contradiction.  And there are people I'd rather question.  That's why I'm questioning them.  Your scumhunting is your own business, especially this early in the game.  The more that people are forced to defend themselves, the more useful posts we have to sift through later in the game.  The deadline is approaching, but as I said, I wouldn't mind a Pesco lynch too much.  He's not done a whole lot to look like a good townie, and we have at least two lynches to distribute today.

Quote from: Roukanken
But if our suspicions of said group are wrong, there's a good chance we'll lynch nothing but Townies.
And if we can make several of these plausible scenarios and lynch one player from each, that cuts down our suspicions considerably. Putting all our eggs in one basket is insanely risky.

I'm just wary of either scum or clueless townie derailing the vote at the last moment and sending us on a wild goose chase for the next few days.  If we put all of the alleged conspirators on the line at once, we're likely to get at least one of them, no matter what crazy unexpected stuff happens as the deadline approaches.

Quote from: Roukanken
Do you see ANYTHING as a scumtell? I find it hard to believe that you honestly don't see anything as worth commenting on in this argument for one side or the other.

I've commented on it.  You're pressing Pesco, which is good, but your arguments about his supposed scumtells so far haven't convinced me.  I don't see anything suspicious in what he's said, and I don't see anything suspicious about you forcing him to defend himself.  Your argument with Pesco is about Pesco himself, and I've let you know what I feel about him - neutral, which is to say I don't favor lynching him over anyone else, and I don't favor saving him over anyone else.

As to how I feel about you, I suppose I can elaborate more there.  I'd say that you look the most pro-town so far, for making an effort to keep everyone on their toes at the very least, if not for the fact that you seem to be tunneling a bit.  I don't see evidence for Pesco one way or the other, and the evidence on you is conflicting, so I'm witholding judgement.

Quote from: Roukanken
Serp, I find your lack of an actual opinion annoying. You have your own suspects for scum, correct? If so, fight about them, argue your side of the debate. Don't sit back and let other people do the work for you - scumhunt, dammit.
What do you think I've been doing?  My case against Affinity wasn't strong, I know, but it was the best angle I saw at the time.  Now I'm pressing Kanguya.  You're lucky in that your scumhunting target has cooperated nicely with walls of text for you to reply to.  The Affinity case didn't go anywhere, and Kanguya hasn't been online to respond to his yet.
Quote from: Roukanken
Where, anywhere in that post, did you raise this idea? Are you trying to say that we're either both scum or neither scum now? Honestly, why is wringing an opinion out of you so hard?

By "the post [Carthrat] ninja'd," I wasn't referring to that post, which was on an entirely different page, but to this one, and the two people I was referring to going after were Affinity and Baity, not you and Pesco.  I'm not sure where you got that idea.

I've made my opinion on Pesco clear from the beginning.  I don't find your case on him compelling, but I don't find his defense compelling either.  We need to lynch someone, and the more the better, and I have no reason to suspect him of being more townie than anyone else, so if he gets lynched, I won't mind, but if he doesn't get lynched, I won't mind then either.

Quote from: Roukanken
Serp is being as neutral as Switzerland, and that infuriates me. Leaving an argument to boil over without supplying any sort of opinion means you effectively leave finding the scum to other players, which is bad Town play.

What's wrong with being neutral in this regard?  It's a perfectly valid point of view to hold two or more players as equally scummy, and be indifferent as to which of them gets lynched, as long as one of them does get lynched.  As to leaving scumhunting to other players, I'm doing scumhunting of my own, too.  I'm not going after the same player you are, but I am hunting.
[15:13] <Sana> >:<

FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
  • *
  • blub blub nya
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #148 on: May 17, 2009, 01:40:01 PM »
I'm saying that you're middling in suspicion.  That's not a contradiction.
But you say later in this post that you're neutral on Pesco, and reading me as Town. 'Neutral' and 'Middling in suspicion' aren't the same thing.

Quote
I'm just wary of either scum or clueless townie derailing the vote at the last moment and sending us on a wild goose chase for the next few days.  If we put all of the alleged conspirators on the line at once, we're likely to get at least one of them, no matter what crazy unexpected stuff happens as the deadline approaches.
How could Town screw it up if we set up 6/6 at deadline? I don't honestly think anyone would be willing to take that risk unless they were two scum jumping to save themselves, in which case we have easy suspects on later days.

Quote
I've commented on it.  You're pressing Pesco, which is good, but your arguments about his supposed scumtells so far haven't convinced me.  I don't see anything suspicious in what he's said, and I don't see anything suspicious about you forcing him to defend himself.  Your argument with Pesco is about Pesco himself, and I've let you know what I feel about him - neutral, which is to say I don't favor lynching him over anyone else, and I don't favor saving him over anyone else.
If I'm attacking him without reason, like you say I am, surely that should be a point against me. But you ignore it since apparently baseless attacks are okay on D1? :|

Quote
As to how I feel about you, I suppose I can elaborate more there.  I'd say that you look the most pro-town so far, for making an effort to keep everyone on their toes at the very least, if not for the fact that you seem to be tunneling a bit.  I don't see evidence for Pesco one way or the other, and the evidence on you is conflicting, so I'm witholding judgement.
Here it is again - you say 'You look the most pro-town' and then say 'I'm withholding judgement'. If you say I look pro-town, doesn't that basically mean you disagree with the case against me?

Quote
What do you think I've been doing?  My case against Affinity wasn't strong, I know, but it was the best angle I saw at the time.  Now I'm pressing Kanguya.  You're lucky in that your scumhunting target has cooperated nicely with walls of text for you to reply to.  The Affinity case didn't go anywhere, and Kanguya hasn't been online to respond to his yet.
I will concede this point to you. KY, hurry up and saying something useful.

Quote
By "the post [Carthrat] ninja'd," I wasn't referring to that post, which was on an entirely different page, but to this one, and the two people I was referring to going after were Affinity and Baity, not you and Pesco.  I'm not sure where you got that idea.
I thought that when Carth was talking about your neutrality in the Pesco/Me debate, the post you referred to in reply was about said debate. I apologise.

Quote
I've made my opinion on Pesco clear from the beginning.  I don't find your case on him compelling, but I don't find his defense compelling either.  We need to lynch someone, and the more the better, and I have no reason to suspect him of being more townie than anyone else, so if he gets lynched, I won't mind, but if he doesn't get lynched, I won't mind then either.
You don't have a reason to suspect him, but you don't have a reason to trust him. Whatever happened to Innocent Until Proven Guilty, ye of the Shikieiki avatar?

Quote
What's wrong with being neutral in this regard?  It's a perfectly valid point of view to hold two or more players as equally scummy, and be indifferent as to which of them gets lynched, as long as one of them does get lynched.  As to leaving scumhunting to other players, I'm doing scumhunting of my own, too.  I'm not going after the same player you are, but I am hunting.
The point I'm trying to make here is that claiming neutrality is an easy way for scum to comment without needing to choose a side. I think this should be particularly noteworthy if Pesco flips Town, since it could be Serp trying to avoid connection to a Town/Town fight.

Kanako Yasaka

Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 1 (The Guillotine Room)
« Reply #149 on: May 17, 2009, 02:17:52 PM »
Okay, I'm up now. Before I reread I guess I have some things to address.

Quote from: Affinity
Horrible IIoA.  There is not the slightest backing behind any of your opinions which is really horrible and arbitrary.  The only actual judgments you actually put forward are 'good' and 'bad', and 'switch Affinity with Rou', with nothing of contributory worth.  Smacks of active lurking, and of trying to get under the radar with half-hearted opinions such as the quotes above.  Not to mention handholding  and piggybacking of people such as Serp and Zak.  Also, I feel that Serp's point against me isn't that strong, and I don't see you pointing out it's exact merits.  Also note that word 'could' in the last quote, which smacks of fortune telling and WIFOM.
Well, okay. There's not really anything I can do to answer this other than that I agreed with their points, perhaps I agreed with them too much? I'm not confident in my opinions but if I really look that bad then I suppose I must get them out there instead of mindlessly agreeing with others who DO have valid points. I guess that agreeing and then doing nothing else was a horrible error on my part and there's nothing I can change now other than avoiding it in the future.

Quote from: Serp
As for who else looks scummy right now, I'm tired of Kanguya Yaraisan humping my leg.  Only the scum know who's definitely townie, and objectively speaking, I don't see how I've done anything to warrant that kind of trust.
You did indeed, look the most townie at the time that I posted that, however new developments may cause me to think otherwise. Once again, next time I do an analysis (probably very soon) I will not explain why someone looks town to me and/or just avoid them all together.

Also, before I reread...

##Unvote since there have been plenty of new developments and the shitty case I had on affinity wouldn't cut it especially since like he said, it reeked of WIFOM and fortune telling. It was just the only thing that really happened besides the Baity stuff, as I formulated the er..."case" before Pesco and Rou starting arguing.

So please pardon me for a moment while I reread the topic.

Cut by Rou:
Quote from: Rou
KY, hurry up and saying something useful.
I'm going to (attempt to) do that in my next post. I'll see what I can come up with.