Touhou Project 17.5 「東方剛欲異聞 ～ 水没した沈愁地獄 Submerged Hell of Sunken Sorrow.」

[The ⑨th Zentillion]

WAAAAHHHHHH I'M AN ASSHOLE TRANSPHOBE SYMPATHIZER AND ALL-AROUND WHINY LITTLE BITCH WAHHH HOW DARE YOU OWN ME I'M NOT OWNED FUCK YOU BAN ME  :colonveeplusalpha:

Soooo sad to see you go, dude.

[Kilgamayan]

My favorite part is that they've logged back in at least twice since the probation was dropped. Clearly the temptation is too strong!

Anyway, back to 17.5 discussion.

[7TC7]

About the possibility of stage portions, it'll probably be a bad idea.

I think it depends on how they do them. If they are a rush of constant movement, like that one attack where we chase Kogasa, but instead dealing with smaller enemies on the way, it could be fine. Or I'd likely expect something akin to a beat 'em up with some moving before the screen locks up and you have to deal with enemies before moving on - they have already shown that they like to play with the terrain, so different terrain + enemy combinations could make for interesting set-ups - actually, this sounds a bit like Subspace Emissary from Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

I don't expect there to be actual platforming, unless some characters have a jump button, because the flight mechanic gives too many movement options for that to be a challenge. But the fact that this is no fighting game and playable characters don't need to be balanced for fighting against each other opens up a whole can of worms of what they could do with the different story routes.

[Suspicious person]

Putting a stage section in the first level will serve as a tutorial of sorts to introduce the player to this game's controls and mechanics, and for the later stages, they may serve to introduce the player to whatever gimmick may appear in later stages and boss fights.

Spoiler:

Say the geysers in Yuugi's fights for example : they could easily serve as things that help you get around during stage 3. Also, there's no reason why anyone would assume that these are harmless (in a BOSSFIGHT !) if they are not introduced to what they do beforehand.

IF there's going to be stages.

And I wouldn't be quick to assume that future stage sections are guaranteed to suck cuz we ain't got no "sample" stage to judge the quality of Tasofro's stage design. IF there's going to be stages. Mortal Kombat Mythology gameplay parallels don't quite work either for this game cuz we got dash and a far reaching camera. Besides MKM's problems really lies in a combination of multiple factors rather than just having fighting game mechanisms : it's got wonky hitbox for some stage hazards, level design that are NOT sensible (3D platforming in a 2D game for that one stage, VERY slow pacing for that other one), weird AI that does not synergize well with the level where they're, and some more ... That is such a fantastic combination of various bad stuff that I don't think it's reasonable to expect those design flaws (that are proper to MKM) to automatically pop up in 17.5 too, stage design wise, if Tasofro plan to add stages.

And there are already arranges of stage theme songs, which honestly would be wasted if they were only made for skippable cutscenes. I mean, it's a Tasofro game, you'd expect there to be one of those pre-battle themes or something.



Anyway, for me, my concerns for this game is a little bit different. Say Tenjou no Tempest or Luna Nights for example : they work pretty damn well because they've got this ONE single character, plus a particular gimmick associated with that ONE character, plus stages and boss battles designed with that ONE character-related gimmick in mind, plus there being a lot of other progression-related stuff (skills for one, items for the other) that allow you to do different stuff for this ONE character : TH 17.5's going for a lot of playables, which allow a certain thing that they've got going for them in the fighters story telling, but I don't believe there's a practical way to give such depth and richness to EACH AND EVERY SINGLE ONE of the playables this time : I expect that we're gonna have more diversity instead of depth this time, and Tasofro's gonna need to come up with something to cope up with that.

A relatively gratuitous speculation here, but for this game I'm expecting Tasofro to go design the playable girls around particular playstyles : for example, Reimu and

Spoiler:

Yuugi

could be lumped together into a more "physical" group, and that infering to similar sprites that they share, while

Spoiler:

Marisa and Kogasa

could fit into something like a danmaku reliant group ; and everybody inside such or such group will have similarities in their playstyles but some differences as well. I don't think its going to be realistic to make EACH AND EVERY SINGLE ONE of the girls play in a radically different way, so this is how I'm expecting things to be. I could be totally off the mark tho, but time will tell.

As for criticisms, there are two things from the demo that I hope will be changed for the final game :
1/ The lack of a dedicated jump button, like previously pointed : if this game intend to be a platformer like it says on the tin, then they should really add it. Jumping is a staple to the genre, please implement. And dunno, maybe allow it to not consume the "stamina"-ish kinda bar
2/ Probaaaaaaaably change how the "bombs" work ?! Cuz apparently they cost you lives. Casual players want to burn through bosses lifebar quickly but also have enough lives to survive, while skilled / super players generally prefer a challenging no miss, and potentially no bomb run : this is a mechanism that serves nobody. I hope it gets changed



Anyway, by this point, [stage sections] is still a yet-to-be-opened can of worms, cuz there are a lot more questions that should be considered if they decide to go for them : how will the characters routes be ? Cuz I don't believe

Spoiler:

Yuugi

's gonna start from the forest, go to the cave and into the

Spoiler:

Onsen

, for example. And how will the stages be balanced per character ? Are they going to stay the same or be more adapted to such or such character's possible playstyle ? Or will certain stages still keep their general aesthetic while being designed differently ? And many more ...

[7TC7]

As for criticisms, there are two things from the demo that I hope will be changed for the final game :
1/ The lack of a dedicated jump button, like previously pointed : if this game intend to be a platformer like it says on the tin, then they should really add it. Jumping is a staple to the genre, please implement. And dunno, maybe allow it to not consume the "stamina"-ish kinda bar
2/ Probaaaaaaaably change how the "bombs" work ?! Cuz apparently they cost you lives. Casual players want to burn through bosses lifebar quickly but also have enough lives to survive, while skilled / super players generally prefer a challenging no miss, and potentially no bomb run : this is a mechanism that serves nobody. I hope it gets changed

Is the game even intended to be a platformer, though? Like, I find no evidence of that? The genre given on Tasofro's page is "Horizontal Danmaku Water Action Game" which is very descriptive of what we can already see.

I don't think it needs a jump button, if that's how they want to do it. Fly is pretty much a triple jump in any direction, so an actual jump button wouldn't add anything (and would kinda work against that button being your universal source for gathering water). The only reason why I mentioned it is because flight makes jumping and therefore regular platforming trivial, so unless there are characters that can jump instead of fly (which I could see for

Spoiler:

heavy hitters like Yuugi

) it doesn't make a lot of sense to have platforming challenges.

And I'm not sure if they bombs should be changed either. I doubt they will be, anyways, because they are very integrated into the system of the game. They don't clear bullets, so they aren't a safety net. They are only a (somewhat) strong attack (if used at the correct times) at the risk of spending your life, which in turn forces you to play with low life or use the gimmick of the game - absorbing water to get back your life (and bombs). Stay hydrated - drink oil.

[Suspicious person]

I mean,we could kiiiiiinda consider the dash button as a jump button of sorts ?! I mean, there are plenty of moves that allow you to take off into the air and you can quite confortably control how you land. At any rate, it works because of how flat the ground is in the demo. Hopefully it'll still stay viable in the future. Anyway, before the demo came out, I was pretty sure this game was said to be a platformer or something, and you'll notice that most of the conversation surrounding this game supposedly being a platformer are consistent with that. But except apparently not anymore ?! If Tasofro decide to give the game a bunch of stages and make those stages similar to the flat ground you see in the demo's boss fights, things'll still be all right, but the stages might end up a tad homogenous. If stages are added.

But regarding the bombs, I'm still not on board with that design decision. Generally, the deal in video games is that you get punished for screwing up, but here, using a bomb essentially punish you. What you're saying is that we essentially have something that is like "use a bomb, lose a life, gather water to replenish lost life", but if gathering water / oil to compensate for that loss (AND get new bombs) is how things are supposed to even out, surely wouldn't having the bomb use the water / oil meter instead of life been more appropriate ? And it would be relatively less spammable also.

[ZoomyTsugumi]

The bombs really do need to be changed because they're insanely pointless. It's not worth the damage to the boss at all to sacrifice some health orbs in pretty much any situation, so they're rendered fairly useless.
Unless they decide that the final boss final attack would be one that you just have to permanently graze through to get water to get more orbs to spam bombs since there's no direct route in to attack but ugh that could go very wrong very fast.

[the old guy]

So... this basically the way this is playing out, it seems to be a standard fighter with lower quality art and no PvP.

The art looks great to me. It's just a different art style. And I don't understand why everyone is labeling it a "fighter" considering if anything it seems to be more like a boss rush thing that just appears to use what seems to be slightly similar mechanics or something. I also don't get why so many people on this forum nowadays seem to dislike literally ANYTHING coming out of Touhou nowadays that isn't a manga or whatever. It's really annoying seeing nearly every thread being about how ZUN is shit.

[Golbez]

It's really annoying seeing nearly every thread being about how ZUN is shit.

As far as I can tell, all those posts were by the same person.

[ZoomyTsugumi]

Every newhu tends to get shat on somewhat anyway, it's just kind of the nature of people in general these days, not adjusting to new entries to anything.

It's much more reliable to judge the opinions a few months after release, when people are less intense in their views and more researched.

[MrNoobomnenie]

Meanwhile ZUN confirmed in his WBAWC interview, that Gouyoku Alliance will play a big role in the plot of this game. Toutetsu confirmed, to be the final boss?

[VTPHOENIX]

Every newhu tends to get shat on somewhat anyway, it's just kind of the nature of people in general these days, not adjusting to new entries to anything.

It's much more reliable to judge the opinions a few months after release, when people are less intense in their views and more researched.

Yeah, I know for a fact that even I have trouble accepting any new characters as soon as their games release.

[Aya Reiko]

Yeah, I know for a fact that even I have trouble accepting any new characters as soon as their games release.

Same here, though I think it's more of a case of the new characters feel like they're just bit players in a far larger picture and have been largely forgettable.  Doesn't help when they usually don't play much of a role in anything outside of their debut game.

[VTPHOENIX]

Same here, though I think it's more of a case of the new characters feel like they're just bit players in a far larger picture and have been largely forgettable.  Doesn't help when they usually don't play much of a role in anything outside of their debut game.

Just like almost everyone in PC-98 generation. Poor girls in the "spin-off" predecessor games.

[Dream Traveler]

So both the Touhou Wiki and Twilight Frontier's page for the game states that a second beta trial was released at this year's Winter Comiket. Has anyone gotten the chance to play it yet?

[PK]

So both the Touhou Wiki and Twilight Frontier's page for the game states that a second beta trial was released at this year's Winter Comiket. Has anyone gotten the chance to play it yet?

Tasofro said the content is exactly the same as the first beta.