Author Topic: Touhou Project 17 「東方鬼形獣 ~ Wily Beast and Weakest Creature.」  (Read 68924 times)

nintendonut888

  • So those that live now, pledge on your fists and souls
  • Leave a sign of your life, no matter how small...
Fun game so far!
Spoiler:
The different hypers are pretty entertaining, though I'm glad you can choose when to activate them and the mechanic isn't necessary for gaining extra lives. Lunatic looks like it's going to be a pretty healthy challenge this time around; first attempt game overed on Urumi, even though I'd already done a run on normal and hard.

Also holy wow Youmu flies completely off the deep end with her dialogue, from what little I can read. On arrogant mode she made a giant troll face and said to Urumi "cows sure are dumb, huh." I guess it's not surprising she'd be susceptible to this kind of influence, given her personality. On the other hand, Reimu doesn't seem affected near as much. I wonder if she has a natural resistance to that kind of personality influence, since she was the only DDC protagonist to not change much when using her possessed item.

EDIT: Also, the music is quite nice. It took me a couple listens to get into some of them, but I think this is another winner from ZUN. Stage 3 boss theme might be my favorite of the demo.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 05:41:28 AM by nintendonut888 »
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

Fun game so far!
Spoiler:
The different hypers are pretty entertaining, though I'm glad you can choose when to activate them and the mechanic isn't necessary for gaining extra lives. Lunatic looks like it's going to be a pretty healthy challenge this time around; first attempt game overed on Urumi, even though I'd already done a run on normal and hard.

Also holy wow Youmu flies completely off the deep end with her dialogue, from what little I can read. On arrogant mode she made a giant troll face and said to Urumi "cows sure are dumb, huh." I guess it's not surprising she'd be susceptible to this kind of influence, given her personality. On the other hand, Reimu doesn't seem affected near as much. I wonder if she has a natural resistance to that kind of personality influence, since she was the only DDC protagonist to not change much when using her possessed item.
Spoiler:
It's more like it's practically part of her job to get possessed by myriad of god and spirit, so it's natural that she grew resisted to it.

Suspicious person

  • Just a humble wanderer
  • How suspicious~
By Jove, that stage 2 boss is like the most ecchi thing ZUN's ever drawn  :blush:
Won't she catch a cold in those clothes ?

Jimmy

  • Shameless spender
  • gaining big pounds
Spoilers abound

The profiles of the new characters have been translated.

Spoiler:
I see now what ZUN means by "darker". The bosses definitely don't seem to be what we initially interpreted them as, though the guessing about Youka being related to the child spirits was pretty close.

I really dig this game so far, stage design is a good up from HSiFS' first three stages IMO, and like all the music so far, favorites currently being the first stage and boss themes and third stage theme.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 07:06:51 AM by Jimmy »
Normal 1cc: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, UFO, TD, DDC, LoLK Legacy, HSiFS, WBaWC
Hard 1cc: IN, DDC, HSiFS
Extra clears: MoF, DDC, HSiFS, WBaWC

Goals: Going Extra Hard!

Drake

  • *
There are so many animal and hell jokes in this game it's actually insane

gdi Clarste I was just typing up the profiles

Spoiler:
I think the last bit of Kutaka's profile is more along the lines of "isn't there anything that could be done", not "would do anything", which would probably be 何でもする or 出来る限り or something.

Youka is a departed child after all, but looks like she's given the image of a Mizuko Jizo to fit the myth, maybe

I swear I've heard the myth of a youkai giving humans something really heavy that knocks them into a river before but can't place it

Also think I should mention the bosses have animals in their names, Niwatari (niwatori; chicken), Ushi (cow), possibly Ebi (shrimp; euphemism?)

There's probably an extra name pun in Niwatari as watari is about crossing, and that's part of her job
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 08:02:56 AM by Drake »

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Suspicious person

  • Just a humble wanderer
  • How suspicious~
Got a
Spoiler:
Jellyfish animal
once for some reason
Anyone know what it does ?

Game seems to have some
Spoiler:
secrets
compared to the other ones, so it might prove to be a bit more interesting to explore
Spoiler:
Got some trophies for just clearing the demo. Quite unusual.

Also is it just me or Youmu is pretty weak ? Her charged shot at full power needed 5 times using in order to floor a certain sunflower fairy, and I timed out the 2nd boss's final spell with it. Might probably need a wee bit of a buff or something. Anyway, hypers are satisfying to use, music is pretty interesting with the eerie and ominous atmosphere they bring, ressources do not seem to be HSiFS-kind-of-abusable, and the game doesn't tell you to play in a certain way in order to not get punished. All in all, I like what I see
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 08:28:56 AM by Suspicious person »

Jimmy

  • Shameless spender
  • gaining big pounds
Got a
Spoiler:
Jellyfish animal
once for some reason
Anyone know what it does ?
Spoiler:
Can't say for sure, I have received one as well but it doesn't seem to have an effect in terms of gameplay, even though it stacks together with the other spirits collected. The midbosses of stages 2 and 3 also drop a special spirit each if certain conditions are fulfilled upon their defeat.

Spoiler:
My guess is that these special spirits will play a bigger role in the later game, like a gimmick that is not within the first three stages.
Normal 1cc: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, UFO, TD, DDC, LoLK Legacy, HSiFS, WBaWC
Hard 1cc: IN, DDC, HSiFS
Extra clears: MoF, DDC, HSiFS, WBaWC

Goals: Going Extra Hard!

Suspicious person

  • Just a humble wanderer
  • How suspicious~
Wow, the bomb that you use when picking up Otter goast in the select screen are VERY good : Reimu uses her bombs like THREE TIMES, Master Spark  becomes ... stronger ? Dunno, but longer as well, and Youmu's spell card hacks things up really, REALLY fast for a longer period of time.

Also Marisa + Eagle goast = PIERCING LASERS. It's probably been over a decade since she's had those or something.

I'd say if there is anything that can probably be somewhat exploitable in this game then that'd probably be the bullet cancel that hyper triggers when you get hit.

Drake

  • *
Spoiler:
The midbosses drop a special spirit if you fulfill a condition, yeah.
Youka - Jellyfish: Don't destroy any of the spirits
Urumi - Cow: Only shoot up close to her the whole time (i.e. above the yellow shots)
Kutaka - Chicken: Beat her while in Otter hyper

Each one gives you five extra animals when you finish the hyper rather than two.
Seems you get 1) a life piece + 4 animals, 2) a life and bomb piece + 3 animals, and 3) life/bomb/bomb/power/point.


Also Donut linked me this, which is the myth I was referring to with Urumi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubume
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 10:23:55 AM by Drake »

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Raikaria

  • Do Tank Girls Dream...
  • *
  • Of Floating Eyeballs?
Spoiler:
I find it rather interesting that Stage 2 is 'Cross the Styx' instead of 'Higan'. The fact it's specifically the Styx is a potential Hecatia tie-in; given both are Greek.

Either that or Touhou Hell is just flat-out the Greek Hell.


http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/tribute/
I don't even remember who put the above in my sig. [Wasn't me] Nor do I understand why I keep it here anymore.
Those two facts sum me up pretty well.

Drake

  • *
Spoiler:
I think that's just ZUN doing his thing of thematically connecting various mythologies together. River Styx and the Sanzu River are almost exactly the same thing, right down to ferrymen.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

CyberAngel

  • Retired
Okay, wow. Can't judge the story, but music and gameplay are a letdown. And I came in with zero expectations.

First off, 16's weak instrument set has already overstayed its welcome with VD. ZUN doesn't even do anything interesting here with it. Sure, basic melodies are alright. But I've also noticed outright cacophonic segments. Stage 2 boss theme is an especially big standout. Never thought I'd say I straight up hate a piece of Touhou music, but now I can point at that dumpster fire of a theme.

Gameplay looks... okay. Just watched videos, but the gimmick wih tokens feel like UFO 2.0, in a good way - expanded and more easy to manage. The boss patterns though just reuse gimmicks we've seen before, and not even in any interesting ways. Reusing
Spoiler:
Shinmyoumaru's growing bullets
in particular is just a crime.

And before you even think of responding with "but it's just a demo" or "you just hate new game because it's new" - I've been here for releases of 14, 15 and 16. They were interesting enough in both gameplay and music, and I could see that even from the demo. Besides, isn't it the demo's purpose, to pique people's interest for the full game? This one just fails to do so for me. I have huge doubts I'll want to even try the full version now. That's a first with a main Touhou game for me, and that's just not a good sign for things to come.

Jimmy

  • Shameless spender
  • gaining big pounds
-snip-

I will admit, this demo certainly has defied some expectations here and there. I'm still interested to see what will come next, as the premise sounds interesting, and the mechanics are, while complex, well thought-out and not ridden with bugs, at least as far as I have seen.

I've been here since DDC's full release as well, and frankly this hasn't gotten any more uninteresting or worse for me, even if 15's and 16's demos were as well as the full games are my favorites. ZUN's been changing his styles quite a lot recently, and I actually really like the fact that he is willing to attempt new stuff, and I don't think that it actually comes across as bad. The stage 2 boss' theme does sound unusual, but I think, given the nature of the character, is quite fitting. Not exactly the style I'm really fond of, but it's interesting.

To each their own I guess, but to brand the game as "bad" right off the bat seems a bit too rash.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 01:00:01 PM by Jimmy »
Normal 1cc: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, UFO, TD, DDC, LoLK Legacy, HSiFS, WBaWC
Hard 1cc: IN, DDC, HSiFS
Extra clears: MoF, DDC, HSiFS, WBaWC

Goals: Going Extra Hard!

PapilLionesskort

  • "Perfectly Immoral Moral Person"
  • Pretty much just lurking innocently
Personally really enjoying this soundtrack.  :]
Write or fight, same thing. You might as well come out swinging either way.<3 Just not too hard, as that's no fun.

R. P. Genocraft

  • Craftsman of absolute unpredictability
  • Boundary of productive and lazy
Spoiler:
I find it rather interesting that Stage 2 is 'Cross the Styx' instead of 'Higan'. The fact it's specifically the Styx is a potential Hecatia tie-in; given both are Greek.

Either that or Touhou Hell is just flat-out the Greek Hell.
Spoiler:
Nah, it's the sanzu. It says so in the "location" part of the stage title.

By the way,
Spoiler:
Urumi sells plesiosaurs.

Maths ~Angelic Version~

  • Aspiring Mathematician of Brilliant Laziness
To be honest, I'm not a big fan of this one. The danmaku was all right, but forgettable. My least favourite parts were
Spoiler:
the boring streaming stage portions and the unnecessary recycling of Shinmyoumaru's growing bullets
. The soundtrack didn't really impress me either, but maybe it'll grow on me if it gets some nice arrangements.

As for the gimmick, I really dislike that ZUN brought back the most annoying thing about the UFOs - bouncing around on the screen and often changing colours (it's nice that the game gives you a choice, but they love to change at inconvenient times) - and now made them appear during boss battles too. I know the animal spirits slow down when you're close to them to let you time the activation of the hyper, but it just throws me off in most other situations. On the bright side, I actually found the hypers satisfying to use, unlike TD's dull trance. And the spirits are not necessary for survival, so you can at least ignore them even if they're still distracting. Overall, they're better than the UFOs, but I still think "collectibles that bounce around and change colours/types" was an annoying gimmick that didn't deserve a second chance.

Suspicious person

  • Just a humble wanderer
  • How suspicious~
-snip-

Hmmm, while I get where the UFO comparison comes from, I honestly don't see things to be anywhere as aggravating as they can be in UFO. I mean, in for starters, UFO are not only VERY important to get in order to have your ressources, but they also DISAPPEAR, leaving the screen after bei?ng there for a set amount of time : your time is limited, and so long as you want to get your ressources, you WILL have to be aggressive. The fact that you also need to collect 3 UFOs of the same type and make NO MISTAKES in the collection else the whole thing'll reset make things a bit problematic too.

But the way collectibles behave in WBaWC are a bit different : for starters, the collectibles STAY THERE indefinitely, and only disappear at the end of the level ... at which point you should have more than the needed time to leisurely pick them up, be it during a conversation or during the cooldowns before new patterns start. The main reason why anyone would rush through a clump of bullet and die can simply be attributed to being far too greedy or super aggressive than necessary in getting ressources.

I'd say the beauty of the ressource system for this game is the fact that not only most of the collectibles (specifically the animal ones) are not things that you absolutely must get in order to survive the game, but also the fact that unlike the activation of your hyper, which requires a minimum of 3 beasts of the same type, you only need ONE SINGLE type of item THEN collect literally just anyting until you get 5 collectibles in order to get your stuff : as far as ressource goes, you are simply not exposed to the same pressure as in UFO, where a single screw up means you missing out on some ressources. And even if instead of ressources you are thinking about your hypers, you don't need to get them in an orderly manner either : just get 3 beasts and you're set. Besides, if you miscount and screw up on getting your shot type boost, getting a hyper still gets you a bullet cancel in case you run into a bullet so there is really nothing to lose whatsoever here.

Point in case, the only similarity with UFO is the collectibles that bounce around. But the way they behave in WBaWC is such that the way things work is substantially different from UFO.

Quote
Shinmyoumaru's stuff
Hmm, this is probably something that may vary depending on how people view the reuse of stuff, but I personally don't see why this would be a particular problem. Now, personally, I'm one of the type of people who consider what a game is purely for its content, no consideration for extraneous stuff whatsoever, but I will admit however that for these types of games getting a PATTERN that requires a certain EXECUTION that is similar to an OLDER PATTERN that requires SIMILAR EXECUTION in order to properly clear would be pretty redundant.

Regarding
Spoiler:
Cow Girl's growing bullets
, while I get that they are similar to Shinmyoumaru's, the way they're used in are completely different ...
Spoiler:
Cow Girl
's patterns involve on one hand one spellcard that essentially punish bottom huggers, while on the other hand is a streaming pattern. And Shinmyoumaru ? For Shinmyoumaru, you literally get the growing bullets ONCE in DDC, and in that spellcard, you pretty much have to move A LOT, from left to right, while manoeuvering in a way that avoids you to get trapped by the aimed hearts. These are very different way of implementing the growing bullets.

My point is, it's not just about the growing bullets, it's about the patterns in general, like, should all other forms of curvy lasers be viewed in light of Shou's ? Or should all the explosions be considered in light of Shizuha's photogame large explosion ? That does not seem appropriate to me.  I would understand the criticisms of Violet Detector, which involve patterns that were already dealt with in previous works (albeit reworked in some cases), but c'mon, this is literally about a bullet-type ... Heck, I'd say that one could possibly argue that WASTING THE IDEA of Shinmyoumaru's growing bullets on LITERALLY ONE SINGLE SPELLCARD is probably what wouldn't be very nice.

... /rant.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 12:55:13 PM by Suspicious person »

This is the actual peak of Touhou. I don't get why you people hate it.

The boss music transition between non-spellcard and spellcard are soooo well done
Title screen theme fits perfectly on this game
Stage 1 music sounds childish and melancholic at same time. yeah perfectly fits for Sai no Kawara
Eika's theme is like oh god instant eargasm
Stage 2 music has some nice waltz segments
I bet people will say Urumi's theme is the weakest one from demo. It's actually the opposite, more you listen to it the more you will love it.
Stage 3 music melody gets stuck in your head right? RIGHT?
Kutaka's theme is pure chaos, has some insane build-up and usual melodic segments. Stage 3 boss fight was never this insane.

Gameplay mechanic is still buggy and difficulty isn't that EXTREMELY hard. Danmaku gimmicks aren't new but still challenging without using new mechanics.
About story. Unpredictable story as always.
All new characters have cute design and interesting background story. If you hate on them, quit being touhou fan.
Also ZUN MADE THESE CUTE ANIMAL SPIRITES

ZoomyTsugumi

  • zoom zoom
Urumi's theme is so damn good, her design entirely is fantastic. Easily jumped into a top 3 fav 2hu slot already.

Overall a really good demo, OST is exciting, visuals are amazing, character design is possibly the best we've seen in a small while. Danmaku is fun to dodge, and the mechanics are really cool to use. Love the player shot diveristy a lot.

CyberAngel

  • Retired
To each their own I guess, but to brand the game as "bad" right off the bat seems a bit too rash.

Don't worry, not trying to paint it as one, and I will take a look at the full game when it comes out anyway. It's just that, personally, it feels kinda bland to me so far, and I tried to sort out the reasons why. If someone disagrees and the game is good enough in their eyes then more power to them.

For Shinmyoumaru, you literally get the growing bullets ONCE in DDC

I'd throw in enlarged knives. Plus the gimmick is her main contribution for VD Nightmare spellcards.

But I understand your reasoning. Plus, looking up translations, it... somewhat makes sense for this boss after all, I guess? But still, this gimmick is kinda important for Shinmyoumaru since it's an embodiment of her (or rather, mallet's) powers, which are kinda a big deal for her character (pun not intended). Having someone else show similar powers, even in danmaku, kinda cheapens hers. It's like in a fighting anime when someone new shows up and has powers previously thought to be unique to an existing character. It kinda hurts for anyone who cared about the old one.

ZoomyTsugumi

  • zoom zoom
Idk, I think expecting something as simple as a gimmick of "bullets changing size" to be only for one character ever is optimistic at best but mostly just unrealistic. It's something that ability wise can definitely be done from different ways, and it's a much different situation having this bullet behaviour be recreated elsewhere than stealing bullets that are very clearly only for one character (like Murasa's Anchors or Ichirin's Unzan stuff). It can be important for both characters though and I don't think it cheapen's Sukuna's attacks either, it had its time, it had its impact, it will still be remembered, even that is clearly evidenced by how it was yours and many other people's first point of reference when seeing it in this game.

I just realized that fighting Eika means you got away with beating up a dead baby.

Haha.

Maths ~Angelic Version~

  • Aspiring Mathematician of Brilliant Laziness
-snip about spirits and UFOs-

Good points. The fact that the spirits are colour-coded bouncy collectibles like the UFOs gave me a terrible first impression, but after getting over that, I'd say they're satisfying at best and slightly annoying at worst. The "slightly annoying" part is when there are many spirits I can't collect yet bouncing around on the screen, and then I have to hope they have the right colours when I reach a cooldown (but at least I still get a bullet cancel out of it if they don't). I just hope the final game won't have too many parts that rely on getting the right hyper at the right time...
Spoiler:
It seems like there's a mild case of this in stage 3. You get a newborn chick spirit if you defeat the stage 3 midboss while using the otter hyper... I'm not sure what it does, though.

I'm still not sure if I think spirits have a place in boss battles. Having them bouncing around when the screen is full of bullets is kind of annoying, and using hypers to capture spell cards feels like cheating. (Yes, I know some HSiFS releases had this problem too.)

-snip about Shinmyoumaru-

I hadn't thought of it that way, but now that you mention it, I do agree that Shinmyoumaru's growing bullets weren't used to their full potential in DDC/VD and appreciate that WBaWC used them in a new way. With that said, I still think it was strange to take a final boss's gimmick and just give it to a stage 2 boss. I also don't agree with the comparison to Shou because curvy lasers weren't even unique to her in her debut game (though I'd be fine with it if Shou were the only Touhou character ever to use them  :V).


Still... I think you've helped me see the game in a more positive light. Thank you.

チソウ タイゼン

  • tarzan cheetos
  • you'll thank me for the cropping later
Honestly, I think this has the potential to be mechanically the best Touhou game of the Windows era. It's like, the gameplay revolves around inciting a TD hyper that operates like PCB boundaries using UFO tokens (with bonus effects if you stack enough of the same color) and the danmaku itself feels largely a step up from HSFS. PCB and UFO are two of my favorite games in the series; this game was made for meeeee

My only thing is lmao, the music feels weaker than previously to me, but I'm certain stages 4~ will pick up. I'm really worried in the meantime that scoring meta's going to revolve around picking otter goast and sitting in the bosses' face for the infinite PIV. I did this against the stage 3 boss at one point and got like 18 million points for my trouble, which brings up bad TD-related feelings for me. Mixed feelings on conditional spirits, also. Nice idea, but ehhhh....?

edit:
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 03:54:24 PM by チソウ タイゼン »


As someone who isn't a main shmup player and hasn't played since UFO because of how god awful the system is, this feels like it takes that and does it all right. It just took ZUN 10 years, getting married, and having kids. 10/10 demo

Wow, the bomb that you use when picking up Otter goast in the select screen are VERY good : Reimu uses her bombs like THREE TIMES, Master Spark  becomes ... stronger ?

I didn't notice what was different at first, but try using the powered up Master Spark on a boss. It has the most subtle change, but it's the most visceral one.

The energy being emitted from the beam is now so strong that you can literally see all the enemies being burned away by it

Arghh, this game triggers my UFO PTSD. The UFO-chasing was one mechanic I hoped would not make a comeback. Even if it's a little more lenient this time around.

Ah, another Touhou game. How ones own ability suffers over time. HSiFS taught me some bad habits and now that the season release isn't a thing anymore, I play a lot more daring. Esepecially when I'm trying to get more points and spirits. Many deaths that could have been negated by a more careful approach. My impression is a good one. I like the new characters, especially
Spoiler:
Urumi's
design stands out. The music isn't really notable for me at the moment but HSiFS was the same for me until the songs grew on to me over time.

Regarding the story
Spoiler:
So, with more chunks of the story now out in the open, how big are the chances that those cute little spirit fellas are gonna betray our heroines. My Japanese is not that great but from what I've gathered, the story in the manual questions the loyalty of those spirits and Kutaka also gives our girls the advice that it might not be the best course of action to trust those spirits possessing them. Might be another case in which the story is only really concluded after the extra stage, after we get betrayed on stage 6.

Then again, I might have completely misunderstood that part.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 04:21:45 PM by Wrathful_Scythe »

CyberAngel

  • Retired
Spoiler:
I can see how this can lead into situation similar to HSiFS final, but honestly, same twist twice in a row would be really lame. Hope ZUN goes somewhere else with the story.

I'm pleasently surprised that, despite the hyper gimmick, this is not a cheesable game. It's probably the least cheesable game since SA- it neither floods you with resources nor gives you a gimmick to trivialize sections.

The patterns also reflect this. LoLK had really cheap patterns since you got point device, and HSiFS had really simple patterns to let you make better use of releases. This is the first game in a while where all the patterns feel nice to play in their own right rather than being extentions of the game's mechanic.

I've been asking for a more traditional touhou game for a while and I this seems like it's going to be it. Very pleased.
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
NMNB: MoF Hard, SA Extra, UFO Extra

nintendonut888

  • So those that live now, pledge on your fists and souls
  • Leave a sign of your life, no matter how small...
My Japanese reading ability is still underdeveloped, but what interests me the most in the story so far are the ways the spirits alter the heroine's personalities. Touhou has been pretty consistent in that spirits and related abilities can only influence what's already there in one's heart, so
Spoiler:
seeing Otter Reimu act meek and almost timid is very surprising, as a longtime Reimu fan - especially since she seems to have the other two spirits fairly under control. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I wonder if it's because the emotions the otter ghost amplifies are a side of Reimu she's not used to feeling, and so she is more susceptible to it.
It's an interesting experience reading this if nothing else.
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet