INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)

[Nachtwanderlied]

##UNVOTE

No need for this RVS vote anymore.

CUT: Even more reason to abandon this.

umu: Not seeing some of your points on Rou.

1: He wasn't justifying his vote with that statement. The reason for the vote was because Anthony collapsed under a single question and Rou found that suspect.

2. Don't see why it implies he knows Anthony is town. Second part seems like a joke and the first statement has been said by others. A clarification on what part implies would be best.

3. Honestly, I don't see why you disliked this. It was a supplement to his attack of "bandwagoning" which you disliked. Now why was this a bad supplement? Do you believe that 3 votes in is not a wagon?

Agree on the point that Rou needs to chime in with ideas/scumhunting/etc.

Zakeri's post on UK is good. Don't like her for pretty much ignoring lines of questioning and jumping onto a bandwagon.

##VOTE UNCERTAINKITTEN

[FinnKaenbyou]

Agree on the point that Rou needs to chime in with ideas/scumhunting/etc.

Well, I'm irritated at Anthony for basically admitting 'yes I'm useless' and not actually doing any hunting afterwards. I'm also irritated at UK for unvoting him because apparently newbs are Town by default, and especially because afterwards so put her vote more or less nowhere.

Not seeing the case on VgT. Like what happened with me, it feels like a joke comment that got taken out of proportion.

No-one else stands out, but we need more activity. >_>

[Nachtwanderlied]

Anthony: Needs to answer my question.

Rou: Irritated at a newb for making a newb mistake? Point on UK's fair. She's a bit vote jumpy at the beginning of D1.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Irritated at a newb for making a newb mistake?

Irritated at him making a newb mistake and then making no effort to rectify it. If he apologised and then tried to DO SOMETHING USEFUL I'd be less critical.

I can't see anything that'll help me prove my innocence, so I'll wait, and that's all I got.

Apathy does not clear you.

[Vibri]

OK, some curiosities.

I'm curious as to why Kilga voted Anthony over the two people who joined the pesco jokewagon after him.  I mean, to me, anything after 2 jokevotes on the same guy is kind of weird, but there were 5 people on him before it stopped.  Kilga hasn't posted since, so I don't know what's up.
The fact that Anthony's immediate and weak response turned him into Lynch Target #1 is interesting too.  Zakeri jumped on after Anthony and hasn't really been prodded, but he's moved on and is actually contributing by now.  Suwako hopped on as vote #5, and he hasn't posted since.  He's still voting for pesco.  What's with that?  If one of them had been called out instead, would everyone be voting for them?

This has already been pointed out, but I'm curious as to what UK is doing.  Voting for Anthony and then unvoting him because he gave a bad defense is weird.  If he's not scum because his response blows, what would it have taken for you to keep your vote on him?  Also, if you're going to unvote, why not just unvote?  I don't get why you seem to want to keep it parked on someone.  It's not like 2 hours is a long time.

Oh, a Rou post.  I guess I can ask you too.  You wanted to vote Anthony immediately after he voted pesco, so what do you think about Zakeri and Suwako jumping on afterwards?

[ES-Anthy]

Ok then, I'll start hunting, just not that active of a person at the moment due to multitasking,

Agree on the point that Rou needs to chime in with ideas/scumhunting/etc.

Well, I'm irritated at Anthony for basically admitting 'yes I'm useless' and not actually doing any hunting afterwards. I'm also irritated at UK for unvoting him because apparently newbs are Town by default, and especially because afterwards so put her vote more or less nowhere.

Not seeing the case on VgT. Like what happened with me, it feels like a joke comment that got taken out of proportion.

No-one else stands out, but we need more activity. >_>

I was mostly saying in your terms 'I'm useless" because I couldn't find anything, but then I should start pointing out more things, so thus

I dislike how this was tacked onto your reason for attacking Anthony.

Would you have rather I hadn't brought it up? I was tempted to start a case on him the instant he showed up as third on the wagon but decided it wasn't quite enough. Then he retracted his vote under pressure, which convinced me it was worth pressing him.

I'm going on this due to you focusing on just me due to the fact of two mistakes, which I admit was stupid, so I'm going to fix this by pointing out the fact of I have yet to see a decent attempt on anyone else, also the mentioning of the temptation of going at me on just being the third person to vote for pesco, what would have you done if it was someone else who voted 3rd for pesco?

[?q]

@Rou:  There is no such thing as a defined RVS.  However, when you choose to start being serious is worth looking at.  To that end, if you're going to say something like HAY JOKE DISCUSSION ENDS NAO, I would expect you to have a solid backing behind it, not

Welcome to Day 1, where we press one person on a small point in the hope of generating discussion.

It was a matter of 'this defense is so bad there's no point talking about it because there's no way it could be seen as logical'. He was using his whole submissive thing as an excuse for what is basically scummy play.

Wwwwwhich is scummy in itself, no?

I actually wouldn't have cared if you threw in that he was third on the wagon; the point was that he was on it in the first place, not necessarily in the Mystical Place Where Scum Usually Hang Out.

Rou: Irritated at a newb for making a newb mistake?

Irritated at him making a newb mistake and then making no effort to rectify it.

Irritated at a newb for making back-to-back newb mistakes?

Apathy does not clear you.

Posturing.  (I don't think apathy is the correct word, for one...)

[FinnKaenbyou]

You wanted to vote Anthony immediately after he voted pesco, so what do you think about Zakeri and Suwako jumping on afterwards?

The main reason I wanted to go after Anthony at that point was because he was a) third on the wagon, and b) he admitted he was doing it for the sake of bandwagonning rather than a joke. Suwako and Zak made it clear their votes weren't serious (honestly, anything using the crack fic as evidence is clearly a joke).

[Affinity]

u-mu seems to me to be trying to harvest (haha) suspicion for bad reasons; e.g his own case on Roukanken is in itself 'half-baked and overly built up', with kind of questionable twists of context and such.  This is Anthony's first time after all.  For the slight hypocrisy, and having not enough beef,

##Vote: u-mu

---

@Anthony:

If you understand that much, answer this question; who do you think is most scummy now?  Most fundamental question in Mafia by far, else you be taken as scum.  This goes for UK with her half-baked sweet potatoes as well.  I'm okay with his bandwagon, since... a bad case is certainly better than none, and that was a good enough reason for me.

---

Ninja 2: It's still early in the game, what do you think of people who have not posted like me in comparison to Rou, as well as everyone else who did not go for someone else?

Gosh 3 consecutive ninjas.  I guess no one likes poor Aki.

[?q]

e.g his own case on Roukanken is in itself 'half-baked and overly built up', with kind of questionable twists of context and such.

^{[[modcolor]citation needed][/modcolor]]}

not enough beef

Look who's talking, Minoriko

[Edible]

Vote Count: Hey Guys, I guess RVS Is Over
VGameT (1) - Kiro
Pesco (1) - Suwako Moriya
Anthony (4) - Kilgamayan, Roukanken, UncertainKitten, Pesco
Suwako Moriya (1) - Nietz
Roukanken (1) - u?
UncertainKitten (2) - Zakeri, Eliphas
u? (1) - Affinity

[FinnKaenbyou]

Oh look, a Umu ninja.

There is no such thing as a defined RVS.  However, when you choose to start being serious is worth looking at.  To that end, if you're going to say something like HAY JOKE DISCUSSION ENDS NAO, I would expect you to have a solid backing behind it

You appear to have missed the point of Day 1. The entire point is that solid backing doesn't exist until someone makes a case based on SOMETHING.

Wwwwwhich is scummy in itself, no?

I assumed it was self-explanatory, a la Kilga. >_>

Irritated at a newb for making back-to-back newb mistakes?

Irritated because at least one of these mistakes is clearly scummy, while the other is anti-Town.

Anthony posts...and his idea of hunting is more or less an OMGUS on me. T_T

also the mentioning of the temptation of going at me on just being the third person to vote for pesco, what would have you done if it was someone else who voted 3rd for pesco?

It was that on top of 'doing it for the wagon', really. If other people had joke posted votes at that point I'd probably have been fine with it.

Any sign of an opinion on UK, the other big topic of discussion right now?

[ES-Anthy]

Now that I think about it, there are more possibilities, mostly using me as a meat shield of sorts, which could lead to either UK or u-mu being possible scum, but I'm keeping on Rou for his pursuit on me for just being 3rd on pesco and saying bandwagon, which I should have said was more of a joke bandwagon, either way no undoing that now, so overall either UK, u-mu, or Rou can be possibilities.

[?q]

I don't disagree with Zakeri's vote on UK (who was my second pick after Rou).

Same things brought against you, except with a slightly different flavor and more pointless modvoting.
UK was my second pick because her willingness to bring up mindh4x in an unpopular light is a slight Towntell IMO.

-----

Now that I think about it, there are more possibilities, mostly using me as a meat shield of sorts, which could lead to either UK or u-mu being possible scum,

Less conspiracy, more explanation.

so overall either UK, u-mu, or Rou can be possibilities.

Less waffling, more voting.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Now that I think about it, there are more possibilities, mostly using me as a meat shield of sorts, which could lead to either UK or u-mu being possible scum, but I'm keeping on Rou for his pursuit on me for just being 3rd on pesco and saying bandwagon, which I should have said was more of a joke bandwagon, either way no undoing that now, so overall either UK, u-mu, or Rou can be possibilities.

I'm staying on you for reasons beyond that - your lack of hunting, your retracting your apparent joke vote under pressure, using 'I'm submissive' as a defense...

[ES-Anthy]

Now that I think about it, there are more possibilities, mostly using me as a meat shield of sorts, which could lead to either UK or u-mu being possible scum, but I'm keeping on Rou for his pursuit on me for just being 3rd on pesco and saying bandwagon, which I should have said was more of a joke bandwagon, either way no undoing that now, so overall either UK, u-mu, or Rou can be possibilities.

I'm staying on you for reasons beyond that - your lack of hunting, your retracting your apparent joke vote under pressure, using 'I'm submissive' as a defense...

I get the whole 'I'm submissive' thing was a crap defense, so drop it already, since I know it doesn't help my case, overall it was an idiot move to do,

Now that I think about it, there are more possibilities, mostly using me as a meat shield of sorts, which could lead to either UK or u-mu being possible scum,

Less conspiracy, more explanation.

so overall either UK, u-mu, or Rou can be possibilities.

Less waffling, more voting.

What I ment was, with UK and you backing me for being a noob, I could have been possibly grouped with you and/or UK, which could possibly lead to suspicion of scum, either way it's something I just thought of, and I'm waiting to vote until I'm a bit more sure, I was just stating current possibilities
 

[Edible]

Vote Count: Nobody Expected Another Vote Count This Quickly!
VGameT (1) - Kiro
Pesco (1) - Suwako Moriya
Anthony (4) - Kilgamayan, Roukanken, UncertainKitten, Pesco
Suwako Moriya (1) - Nietz
Roukanken (1) - u?
UncertainKitten (2) - Zakeri, Eliphas
u? (1) - Affinity

[Nietz]

The Anthony wagon sucks. It started in what looked a lot like a innocent newb mistake, he got proded for it and reacted pretty much like an innocent newb would.

Don't like how Rou jumped on him and waved aside his explanations as invalid, using the all-too-common "it's not noobish, it's scummy and anti-town" argument. This might be a case of "too Rou to be scum", but I'm kinda paranoid of people manipulating their meta, so I'm keeping my suspicion on him.

pesco, however, seem worse for the time being. He jumps on the Anthony wagon as well with the same kind of throwaway reasoning, then proceeds to FoS (ugh) and press VgT on a mere technicality. It's particularly bad because we've already seen people referring to past games before without giving links, and now you suddenly decide this is scummy.

Don't see much of a case on UK's actions at face value. Her prod and unvote seems to be exactly what to expect from a sensible player when coming upon a newbie mistake. Of course, she could be trying to act like a proper player (paranoid, remember?), but I don't see scum intent right now.

##Unvote
##Vote: pesco

We...

Is that the Royal "we"?

[UncertainJakutten]

He's leaning scummy for me, I've FoS'd him since I can't vote a second person.

You're parking your vote on air, and that equals buggerall scumhunting.

Nothing's happened. Besides the Anthony thing, we have very little.

yeah, I think that was it.  you don't remember?  it was the same game where I spent most of my time going after the wrong people and then I got modkilled for inactivity during lylo.  actually that's kind of embarassing.  why the hell did I bring this up?

If it helps, Pesco, I don't like this post. It feels like he's kinda trying to be like "y-y-yeah that was it...b-but I may have messed up..."

We do not like how you can easily ignore this situation.

Royal we? I'm merely calling tone on it.

Nor do we like how you ignore it to make another jokevote.

Royal we again? Not exactly a joke vote, more a no vote without directly saying so.

How did you decide KGH was probably town last game? Besides guessing. In fact, if I remember correctly, you had to be told to reread him before you found him town (Or was that someone else?).

I did a massive reread of several players before I switched. I was told on a couple people, but not him, though I creditted Umu for spurring me to reread. However, I'm learning from that experience and trying to pick it up quicker with less effort. In this case I feel that his tone conveys newbtown.

You have no reason to believe he's town. Although you've said that in the same sentence. We do not blame you for not voting him, as the main issue is that you ignore a current discussion topic and then choose not to bring anything else up. You are choosing to provide nothing.

What is there to provide at the moment? I can't exactly make a case on myself (though that would be admittedly funny). Nothing else has really happened that causes me to move.

Umu has fair points on Rou. I don't disagree with them and I'll be placing a serious'd vote at the end of this post depending on what piques my interest.

I fully expect VGT 86 to get voted for much the same reasons I've just been voted for . Page 3 reread for the win.

Anthony 87 starts to strain my earlier read. If you haven't noticed, other people are getting voted for sitting on their asses for doing nothing. At this point, you don't need a good case, you should at least have opinions/commentary. Stuff is starting to happen.

OHHHHHHHH~! Zak has a post restriction!

Rou 89. The same problem we had with KGH last game, but under a different flavor. It effectively artificially ends the RVS whereas Anthony's action would have either naturally done it or not done so. So, it's different, but the same grievance.

Eliphas 90: really? That's all? Just "I agree with Zak"? Lots of scumhunting effort thar.

Rou 91: No, it's not that, but I like your strawman. I also like the irritation with me. Are you going to vote me or do you think I'm town? Or none of the above? Elaborate? But yes, about the strawman, it's not that I think all noobs are town, it's just his tone FEELS town. vote being nowhere has been explained.

Eliphas 92: And can you explain why vote jumping is implicitly scummy?

VGT 94: I like voting the mod. That appears to be the main issue everyone has. Because I think they think I'm trying to look like I'm voting. Alas, I did not consider this. But yeah, at any rate, for the rest of it, it wasn't his defense was bad, it was the way he presented it. It felt...town. I don't know how to explain it beyond that.

95 is also useless. Umu...Anthony, could you...please try to at least somewhat vindicate my read a little bit?

Anyway, I now have enough data to answer your 98 Affinity. VGT is not impressing me. Nor is Rou. I'd place Rou as scummiest at the moment much for Umu's reasons, as well as the "I'm irritated" lines not followed by any action.

Oh yeah, AFfinity, could you provide that condescending elaboration Kilga sometimes offers about the umu thing?

102 causes me to demand further explanations. I smell parroting.

Anthony 105: Why should he drop a legitamite point against you?

Congratulations, you understand the concept of BUDDYING now. Unfortunately, that idea does not help you very much when you don't produce content that would make you desireable to buddy up to.

Hey, caught up, gonna back up what I said to Affinity

##Unvote, Vote Roukanken

And apparently I was still voting Anthony. That was not supposed to be.

Though I must say I'd really like some content from him soon, rather than eggos and rather limp speculation. I'd like more from Eliphas as well, whom I promptly forgot after his, in his words, WOOHOO onto my wagon. VGT also needs to get a game face on. I would probably vote VGT if Rou were to suddenly start being awesome, but I'm willing to give Eliphas a couple more posts before I throw him on the list of "die nao".

[FinnKaenbyou]

The Anthony wagon sucks. It started in what looked a lot like a innocent newb mistake, he got proded for it and reacted pretty much like an innocent newb would.

Don't like how Rou jumped on him and waved aside his explanations as invalid, using the all-too-common "it's not noobish, it's scummy and anti-town" argument. This might be a case of "too Rou to be scum", but I'm kinda paranoid of people manipulating their meta, so I'm keeping my suspicion on him.

Again, why do newbs get free passes? Zengar was scum last game and he was a newb, so it's not like being new makes you Town by default.
Plus, retracting the vote under pressure in particular is a move that reads more newbscum than newbtown. Any potential danger will frighten scum more since they've got more to lose from being lynched, so that suggests already newbscum over newbtown.

No, it's not that, but I like your strawman. I also like the irritation with me. Are you going to vote me or do you think I'm town? Or none of the above?

I'm suspicious of you, yes, but I feel that Anthony is worse at the moment. It also annoys me that you didn't clarify why you unvoted him. You said 'it looks like an obvious newb mistake, therefore unvote'. Again, why does making a scummy move not matter if you're a newb? There are scummy mistakes and non-scummy mistakes, and in my opinion retracting a joke vote under pressure is more likely to be scummy than not.

[Kilgamayan]

Anthony has given me no reason to move my vote.

VGT asks me questions with some pretty obvious answers. Not a fan of this.

Youmu is making a mountain out of a molehill.

I like Zakeri.

That's about it.

[UncertainJakutten]

I'm suspicious of you, yes, but I feel that Anthony is worse at the moment. It also annoys me that you didn't clarify why you unvoted him. You said 'it looks like an obvious newb mistake, therefore unvote'. Again, why does making a scummy move not matter if you're a newb? There are scummy mistakes and non-scummy mistakes, and in my opinion retracting a joke vote under pressure is more likely to be scummy than not.

Well, whatever, it's clarified now. I thought it was clearer that I was referring to tone when I said he felt newbtown despite criticizing his post.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Kilga - opinions on UK?

Well, whatever, it's clarified now. I thought it was clearer that I was referring to tone when I said he felt newbtown despite criticizing his post.

I don't understand this point. If there's something in his tone which sounds noobtown, surely you can point it out rather than saying 'it's there'?

[UncertainJakutten]

I don't understand this point. If there's something in his tone which sounds noobtown, surely you can point it out rather than saying 'it's there'?

I'm at a loss to explain it...it's somewhere between would scum be that retarded, especially with daytalk available (of course Zengar has proved this to be possible) and something about the way he phrased it. I can't say I'm a fan of his recent contributions though.

[Edible]

Vote Count: Three Votecounts On One Page, Jesus Christ
VGameT (1) - Kiro
Pesco (2) - Suwako Moriya, Nietz
Anthony (3) - Kilgamayan, Roukanken, Pesco
Roukanken (2) - u?, UncertainKitten
UncertainKitten (2) - Zakeri, Eliphas
u? (1) - Affinity

[Kilgamayan]

Actually I have a better idea.

##Unvote: Anthony
##Vote: VgameT

Hi hows about you actually start doing things? Your spat with pesco was much ado about nothing and wasn't even game-relevant and the questions you asked could be answered simply by reading the pesco votes in question and spending two minutes thinking about them.

Roukan: When I have some, you'll be the first to know.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Roukan: When I have some, you'll be the first to know.

This interests me. You disapprove of Umu pressing at me with as you put it 'a mountain out of a molehill', but UK's attacking me for pretty much the same reasons. What's different?

[Nietz]

Again, why do newbs get free passes? Zengar was scum last game and he was a newb, so it's not like being new makes you Town by default.

Nor does it make you scum by default. But what it does make you is an easy target. And if I remember last game well, Zengar did a lot of consistently scummy stuff during the day, not just one single dumb action.

Plus, retracting the vote under pressure in particular is a move that reads more newbscum than newbtown. Any potential danger will frighten scum more since they've got more to lose from being lynched, so that suggests already newbscum over newbtown.

Seriously, everyone ALWAYS says "more newbscum than newbtown" every time they vote a newbie. I used to did it myself, now that I realize it, it sounds kind of irritating. "Scum is more afraid because they have more to lose" is another fallacy, everyone dislikes the idea of being lynched over some mistake, not just scum.

Royal "we".

Oh, I think I get. Five Magical Stones.

[UncertainJakutten]

Seriously, everyone ALWAYS says "more newbscum than newbtown" every time they vote a newbie. I used to did it myself, now that I realize it, it sounds kind of irritating. "Scum is more afraid because they have more to lose" is another fallacy, everyone dislikes the idea of being lynched over some mistake, not just scum.

I can support this. Take a look at a lot of my mislynches when I put on the raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaeeeeeeeeegahol.

Oh, I think I get. Five Magical Stones.

So THAT'S it.

[Suwako Moriya]

Still on Pyokopesco.  Yop.  No real reason, no real reason to move.
... what, I got a shrine to run, you know how much upkeep there is to do in back of one o'those things?  I ain't got time to follow seven pages 'o snakes before tomorrow, call me when something's hopping! 
Less rageohol, more alcohol, it'll be a party!