Author Topic: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery  (Read 37511 times)

Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #150 on: November 09, 2017, 04:33:06 AM »
I have no strong feelings on Hiedano. It's not what I'd have done (did), but I don't think it's a totally unreasonable interpretation of that style of name. Really, the bigger problem comes from flipping the name to Western order with the given name first, but that's sort of inevitable.

Drake

  • *
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #151 on: November 09, 2017, 04:40:18 AM »
They're going to stumble when the name Hieda is used outside of her name, at the very least.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #152 on: November 09, 2017, 04:42:48 AM »
So what I'm getting here is, ZUN wrote Akyuu's name oddly by not having "Hieda" and "no" as separate words. It's not just a typo, because it's consistently written that way, and it's unique to Akyu, as people like Miko and Futo's names aren't written that way. Most Japanese would be able to figure it out, though. Rather than translate it as two separate words, the translator kept it as one word. Then they flipped the name order to fit Western conventions. Of course, a Westerner seeing her name for the first time would just think it's "Hiedano".

So tl;dr it's a lost in translation thing. Is that correct? It'd be weird if it were Toyosatomimino, but in this case it seems pretty understandable if I got all that right...? Even if it causes problems when referring to her family.
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
NMNB: MoF Hard, SA Extra, UFO Extra

Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #153 on: November 09, 2017, 04:44:13 AM »
Hata no Kokoro is also written that way, iirc.

She also shows up in FS.

Drake

  • *
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #154 on: November 09, 2017, 04:54:19 AM »
It isn't unique to Akyu. It's like this for every relevant character.



It isn't that odd; while many times there will be spacing between the family name and の (if there's spacing at all), there are writings that connect it that way. In any case, I don't think Japanese readers would be unaware and instead think it's an unorthodox reading, as long as they've taken a history class in school.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 04:56:02 AM by Drake »

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #155 on: November 09, 2017, 04:57:59 AM »
Yeah, that's how I remember it being. Honestly I thought that was normal since I basically learned about these names through Touhou.

Edit The correct solution is Akyu von Hieda.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 04:59:37 AM by Clarste »

Hello Purvis

  • *
  • Hello Jerry
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #156 on: November 09, 2017, 08:00:10 AM »
Edit The correct solution is Akyu von Hieda.

Akyu is a filthy Junker, shoe fits.

Lt Colonel Summers

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • Do not mess with a soldier
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #157 on: November 09, 2017, 08:03:24 AM »
And know that in Japan, in the old times, people were called "X of Y" and not "X Y" like today. Eastern culture was probably the only one like that, maybe, but that's just unexecusable.

Germany in the old times also has a similar naming, with "von" serving the same purpose as Japan's "no"

EDIT:

Edit The correct solution is Akyu von Hieda.

Clarste beat me to it. And talk about Brick Joke too, since someone has joked about "Akyuu Von Hieda" in the first page of this topic.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 08:05:02 AM by Lt Colonel Summers »
There's nothing inscribed on the dog tag...

Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #158 on: November 09, 2017, 09:24:42 AM »
Germany in the old times also has a similar naming, with "von" serving the same purpose as Japan's "no"
France too, with "de". And the French Wikipedia talks about Netherlands ("van"), Scotland ("Mac"), Ireland ("O") and Italy ("da").
Seems rather common.

Shadowlupus

  • Crimson Blade Hidden Amidst the Darkness
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #159 on: November 09, 2017, 10:37:51 AM »
https://facebook.com/Touhou763/albums/1976025672685134/

"The Beautiful Shaman of Paradise"
"Utterly Normal Magician"

Well, it now becomes crystal clear that the translator is doing it blind, i.e. w/o references.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 10:56:32 AM by Shadowlupus »

Suwako Moriya

  • Hey you with the pretty face
  • *
  • Welcome to the human race!
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #160 on: November 09, 2017, 01:49:46 PM »
Kokoro Hatano
Akyu Hiedano

THIS IS YOUR FAULT
The only thing this dimension does well is show its ass. We might as well applaud it! - Albert Burneko

Well, this game happened.

aListers

  • Vocaloid for the win!
  • Gensokyo forever!
    • Newgrounds
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #161 on: November 09, 2017, 06:07:50 PM »
France too, with "de". And the French Wikipedia talks about Netherlands ("van"), Scotland ("Mac"), Ireland ("O") and Italy ("da").
Seems rather common.

I'm fairly sure that "Mac" means "son of" and is a reminant of the old naming scheme where you didn't have surnames so you were just "your dad's son". I don't think we have an "of" here. The only Scottish person I recall with that kind of thing was "Robert the Bruce" who was at the time "Robert De Bruce."

"Mac" has more in common with the suffix "son" than with the Japanese "no" or French "De." I would prefer "Akyuu Von Hieda" over "Akyuu Hiedano" though. If it were my choice I'd go for "Akyuu O'Hieda" but I think it's best to go with "Akyuu Hieda"

Actually, looking it up, "?" means "decendent of" (ie. Implying there was sombody with the first name "Hieda") so unfortunately "Akyuu O'Hieda" wouldn't work either. Akyuu Von Hieda it is
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 06:27:38 PM by aListers »
???-2004?=dark ages, 2005?=atomic betty era, 2006=red dwarf era, 2007-2009=newgrounds era, 2009-2014= anime era.

Been good talking to you all. Gensokyo gu braith!

CyberAngel

  • Retired
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #162 on: November 09, 2017, 06:52:31 PM »
inb4 licensed translation has more errors and lost details than any fan-made one

Yep. I'm preparing the metaphorical popcorn. Looks like it's gonna be quite a ride.

Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #163 on: November 09, 2017, 09:13:38 PM »
Wow, a translator made a single assumption that's not even completely wrong. Something that (as far as I remember) doesn't even matter at all during volume 1 and probably wont even cause any confusion once they start bringing up Akyuu's family name. What a huge deal.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 09:20:11 PM by Romantique Tp »

Gpop

  • Subconscious Rose Girl, Koishi
  • FIRST PLACE BAYBEE!
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #164 on: November 09, 2017, 10:05:40 PM »
I'm gonna have to agree with others and say that that translation is...odd. Like, this is something the translators should have known about and picked up easily, since in the  form that it's in, that naming is just plain wrong.

That said, I wonder if this stays consistent for the rest of the book if they ever reference her last name as such again, or if that issue pops up only once in that page. If so...I'll be concerned about other future characters with the same naming convention (ie. Kokoro Hatano)

Drake

  • *
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #165 on: November 09, 2017, 11:30:34 PM »
"The Beautiful Shaman of Paradise"
"Utterly Normal Magician"

Well, it now becomes crystal clear that the translator is doing it blind, i.e. w/o references.
Both of these are still correct though. The most "weird" thing is 素敵 translated as "beautiful" where given the series' context the connotation of "fantastic" is probably what's intended. There is no difference between writing "Ordinary" or "Normal" besides convention, and "Shaman" is literally written in katakana. If you seriously think the problem is with Shaman you are in no position to even look at the page and argue a translation is wrong.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #166 on: November 10, 2017, 01:49:22 AM »
I do think "beautiful" is a problem though, because I think describing her as beautiful makes absolutely no sense in the context of the series. That's just not a feature that ZUN would care enough about to put in a character title (as opposed to "Fantastic" or the like). To me it implies that the translator has no background in Touhou and didn't do much research, which can easily cause problems down the line when they start obliquely referencing things the reader is already supposed to know.

Shadowlupus

  • Crimson Blade Hidden Amidst the Darkness
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #167 on: November 10, 2017, 01:51:22 AM »
Of course not. I guess I'm sorry that I didn't make it clear in the first post that I just want to show everyone that they are not using wiki or anything as references/spell-check, etc. I didn't say that it was a good or bad thing. I didn't have any problem with translators using different words, as long as it doesn't divert from the original meaning.

Also, of course, I think the problem lies in "Beautiful" instead of "Shaman." I've read every single title both in Japanese and English on the wiki so I know what I'm doing. I'm 100% sure that beautiful and wonderful are entirely different characteristics.

That's just not a feature that ZUN would care enough about to put in a character title (as opposed to "Fantastic" or the like).

Iku's character title is Beautiful Scarlet Cloth so that's something, I guess?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 02:03:01 AM by Shadowlupus »

Lebon14

  • 椛ちゃん、助けてぇぇぇぇぇ!
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #168 on: November 10, 2017, 02:48:11 AM »
I feel like I'm being shamed by people for not purchasing this tome over the translation mistakes / translation choices used by Yen Press.

N-Forza

  • Information Superhighway Robbery
  • *
  • I said it was a steal, but not for whom
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #169 on: November 10, 2017, 06:03:29 AM »
Iku's character title is Beautiful Scarlet Cloth so that's something, I guess?
That's because the Japanese used in Iku's title has a stronger connotation of "beautiful" unlike 素敵 which can have a number of meanings.

Drake

  • *
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #170 on: November 10, 2017, 06:18:04 AM »
I feel like I'm being shamed by people for not purchasing this tome over the translation mistakes / translation choices used by Yen Press.
You shouldn't be shamed. I apologize if it's me putting you off but as I've said a couple of times my issue isn't with any personal decisions to not spend money, it's the general stance to boycott a thing based on fixable errors. Again, criticism is absolutely warranted but this can easily turn into people making suggestions that the release shouldn't be supported, which can be dangerous.

Do we really want the outcome of this venture to have the fan's general response be "this translation is pretty bad so let's not support it", have sales be awful, Yen Press maybe releases a couple volumes then drops it because they think people don't actually want the Touhou manga, and have no other publisher want to pick it up for the same reasons? It's not like I'm suggesting that fans should support licensed publications blindly, but we should be working to try and make this a success for the benefit of everyone.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 06:35:20 AM by Drake »

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Shadowlupus

  • Crimson Blade Hidden Amidst the Darkness
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #171 on: November 10, 2017, 07:34:48 AM »
Yen Press maybe releases a couple volumes then drops it because they think people don't actually want the Touhou manga, and have no other publisher want to pick it up for the same reasons?

I think this is the exact same scenario for Capcom not releasing old games. Instead of thinking of a reason why some games/reboots fail (not enough ads/buggy release etc.), they instead conclude that fans don't actually want these games and drop them all entirely, leaving fans still angry to this day.

It's a dilemma. We have to support Yen Press if we want more volumes to come out, but in worst case, if they don't listen to our feedbacks regarding their translations (if they are very bad) they will continue to make mistake like this. As a result, we might think it's just better to not buy it but we can't do that. This train of thought is looping back and forth!

As a middle-ground solution, we have to begrudgingly buy the book to show our support but not read it. Even then, it's a waste of money. Moreover, who would benefit from the book being translated if no one's gonna read it? New fans? Old fans? I think it's neither. However, we do not have much choices.


In Thailand over here, FS publishing comes to a halt, possibly forever, even if the translation is done by a professional translator, the admin himself. It's because there's not enough people who care enough about the series to buy it. I believe the number of fans overall is less than 100. It's unfortunately a sad situation. I don't want the same to happen to the west either.


Anyway, the real question is...Is it possible for everyone, including new fans, to compromise over the inconsistencies in translations? Ex. Flandre to Frandoll, Marryberry to Maribel and Hiedano to Hieda, etc.

All in all, I sincerely hope that everything goes well for everyone.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 07:43:38 AM by Shadowlupus »

Drake

  • *
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #172 on: November 10, 2017, 08:01:40 AM »
The trap is succumbing to the idea that some other publisher will pick it up if YP drops the ball. This train has already left the station; all we can do is try to make sure it stays on course.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

CyberAngel

  • Retired
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #173 on: November 10, 2017, 08:08:12 AM »
Frankly, I call into question the "fixable" part. Is Yen Press even going to listen to fan feedback? Are there precedents? Because if not we'll be stuck with errors that will have more weight for some people (newcomers especially) due to being "official" as opposed to well-researched but fan-made translations. I mean, if you want to support ZUN then you might as well just import the tankobon. Meanwhile, supporting this thing will also signal it's okay to keep doing subpar translations. Either way, it's not doing something irreplacable for the fandom. We have enough awesome translators to keep up with the official stuff. Settling for a worse option is the road to stagnation.

ToyoRai

  • Head But No Tail
  • I am still here. Sometimes.
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #174 on: November 10, 2017, 09:46:16 AM »
I guess to voice my opinion on this; Just because a translation is correct, doesn't mean it is necessarily a good one. Yes, Reimu's title uses the word shaman. However, should you translate it as that in the context of Reimu? And even if Akyuu's surname is written as "Hiedano", should you really translate it as that, especially when you are going to use western order? And just because they are the only questionable translations we know of, doesn't mean they are the only ones.
Since the series is getting a paperback release, hopefully any criticism they get and would implement does get added as early to the series as possible so that it's not like half the series uses certain translation and then suddenly it switches to something else.

Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #175 on: November 10, 2017, 05:22:09 PM »
I guess to voice my opinion on this; Just because a translation is correct, doesn't mean it is necessarily a good one. Yes, Reimu's title uses the word shaman. However, should you translate it as that in the context of Reimu? And even if Akyuu's surname is written as "Hiedano", should you really translate it as that, especially when you are going to use western order? And just because they are the only questionable translations we know of, doesn't mean they are the only ones.
Since the series is getting a paperback release, hopefully any criticism they get and would implement does get added as early to the series as possible so that it's not like half the series uses certain translation and then suddenly it switches to something else.
I don't really care about Hieda vs Hiedano, but yeah, they should keep Reimu's title as "shaman". It's written in English, in katakana, so that's clearly what ZUN wanted her English title to be.

Just to make it clear, all character titles in FS have an English word somewhere in it.

Kosuzu's is "Bibliophile", Akyuu's is "Savant", Reimu, Marisa, and Mamizou's respectively are "Shaman", "Magician", and "Disguiser".

Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #176 on: November 10, 2017, 09:54:36 PM »
Meanwhile, Clastre in his Tumblr has been started to directly insulting the ones, who don't agree with him. So, if you don't like "Hiedano", but like "Flandre" and "Maribel", you're "an asshole" now. With so toxic community, I think, we just don't deserve to have Touhou officially published in the West.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 10:26:54 PM by MrNoobomnenie »

ToyoRai

  • Head But No Tail
  • I am still here. Sometimes.
Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #177 on: November 10, 2017, 10:28:16 PM »
I don't really care about Hieda vs Hiedano, but yeah, they should keep Reimu's title as "shaman". It's written in English, in katakana, so that's clearly what ZUN wanted her English title to be.

Just to make it clear, all character titles in FS have an English word somewhere in it.

Kosuzu's is "Bibliophile", Akyuu's is "Savant", Reimu, Marisa, and Mamizou's respectively are "Shaman", "Magician", and "Disguiser".
If that is the case, then I guess so. My concern in that case comes with consistency. Like if her title specifically uses shaman, should any mention of shrine maiden/miko be translated as shaman, or as shrine maiden? Is that one mention of shaman meant to be the official translation of just one-time quirk?

Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #178 on: November 10, 2017, 10:34:04 PM »
Meanwhile, Clastre in his Tumblr has been started to directly insulting the ones, who don't agree with him. So, if you don't like "Hiedano", but like "Flandre" and "Maribel", you're "an asshole" now. With so toxic community, I think, we just don't deserve to have Touhou officially published in the West.
No no no, you personally are an asshole. You've been the only one messaging me personally about these things and just telling me I'm wrong with no evidence instead of participating in the public discussion. This was the culmination of dealing with you for months, or maybe years, I don't even know anymore. I ran out of patience for you, sorry.

The fact that you immediately came here to report that just makes me more confident in my decision.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 10:54:47 PM by Clarste »

Re: Yen Press licenses Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery
« Reply #179 on: November 10, 2017, 10:40:59 PM »
You've been the only one messaging me personally about these things and just telling me I'm wrong with no evidence instead of participating in the public discussion
I'm messaging you personally only because i just don't know, how to "participating in the public discussion" (actually, a have no idea, how the Tumblr works).
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 10:42:54 PM by MrNoobomnenie »