Author Topic: Communication Breakdance (Game Over! Town win) (Read 80221 times)

UncertainJakutten · « **Reply #570 on:** September 04, 2009, 02:27:28 PM »

Of course, as Rou was Chen, we have 8 pages of nothing.

But Sodium does kinda call out Chen, which is interesting.

Chen arrives with nothing to say page 8! YAY!

Rou comes in page 10. Ok, serious'd tiem

Rou's 312 begins to make me change my mind to be honest.

Rou 347 starts a K4U wagon. Or attempts to.

Rou 358 is where we start getting into "Ok, you have a case on Sodium, and you ignore it? wth hero". Further, isn't this how we caught Sodium? Well, one of the ways?

Rou 386 ignores most of the case on Sodium, about how the Zengar side was superior to KGH, and KGH was still being tunneled by Sodium.

(As an aside, if KGH is scum that both Sodium and Zengar were trying to bus, I am going to laugh my ass off, probably while crying)

Rou 394 is a lurker poke. I really don't like the "Sodium is a bad case, I'll ignore it" coming from him when...it wasn't

Rou 414 is another post that makes me wonder. It feels townie.

Rou's posts on page 15 feel weird. On the one hand, they are fair for pointing out Kilga's kinda bad logic, but on the other hand, they defend sodium, and some of his counterpoints are a stretch. It's like he's trying to poke at the things that can be attacked for sodium and hope the things that can't be go ignored.

Rou 453 has to be the most anti town post I've ever seen when it was pretty damned obvious Edible was doing a gambit or at least had a role in reduced capacity. Whether it was a scum or town gambit remains to be seen, but still.

The trouble is, was it scummy? Granted, it tipped off Sodium to the "yeah, this is probably fake" when he was probably still on panicky ropes. However, on the flip side...scum have daytalk. Why would Rou tell Sodium this in thread as opposed to PMing him?

This actually makes me wonder more about my initial guns blazing approach

(an aside)

Quote

But would any role be immune to day-actions? What sort of role would that be? 'You are X, you're immune to everything'?

Hi, Mafia Entrancer from Touhou Remix. I had to theoretically nerf it mid game, but the situation never came up. As written, it was immune to the dayvig, but I didn't intend that.

488, Rou starts to think!

496 rolefish. Edible really is right. You don't need to know. If you want to know, build a case on him and lynch him.

And yes, I failed to attack it before, but it really was bad in retrospect.

Ok, as an aside, having nothing to do with Rou, Kilga suddenly gained over 9000 suspicion points here

I'd like to take this opportunity to ask Kilga whatever happened to this? Shouldn't you be voting Edible?

Oh wait...Rou reminded me that Kilga started that push. Though it's not outside of scum Kilga character...ah hell...I dunno.

Rou 529 indicates there should be more Edible voting today as well.

Rou 561 explains the Edible flip, which is fair.

For now, I provisionally clear Rou, but not by much. A reread really does feel more like misguided town.

##unvote

Edible gets reread next, than K4U.

Pesco · « **Reply #571 on:** September 04, 2009, 02:40:10 PM »

She's been in the game longer than you so obviously she's got time to have screwed up twice compared to your once. ~~Nurupo~~ Null point.

UncertainJakutten · « **Reply #572 on:** September 04, 2009, 02:47:44 PM »

Gotta love Edible 117. It's a nice set up if I start doing anti town things (like I usually do)

Edible 131 is useless

Sodium 144 does poke Edible but goes in favor of KGH. But there's also the fact that, for some reason he didn't want to vote KGH when he was voting me, but suddenly, when Edible is his second bringing KGH to L-2 is a-ok!

Nothing on page 6...or 7...

Edible 223 is more of that poking at me just enough to have basis for switching if I screw up even slightly...it's like he's trying to line up my lynch because he expects me to fuck up. There is a fair moving away from KGH and to Zengar, but even then there's a hesitance to vote.

Nothing on page 9...or 10...

Pops in for L-2 on 313. This is fair I guess.

Edible 364 is either a hard bus or a fair analysis.

Quote

I reserve my right to swoop down on mafia scum when they least expect it... like Batman. I had no real reason to defend or elaborate on my case any more than I did, because I saw Town heading in that direction anyway. And you can't really argue with the results.

This is still bad and you should feel bad.

Edible 381 is not happy either. Why look for alternatives with caught scum? A rival wagon to protect a buddy?

Edible 411 is useless

Edible 425 is the "Well, I'm prepared to hammah!"

Edible 451 is the amazing lie detector claim (I'm still using it in a game)

Let me put it this way. I already argued why scum Edible could use it. And why he couldn't outright say "OMG SCUM" if Sodium claimed town. Further, given previous stances, why waste it? Not liking it.

Edible 495 is just...TERRIBLE

No, seriously, did you HAVE to WIFOM like that?

Edible 511 is more poking me.

I think Edible is more like to be scum than Rou.

I'll reread K4U but expect to vote Edible.

FinnKaenbyou · « **Reply #573 on:** September 04, 2009, 02:48:28 PM »

Quote from: Pesco on September 04, 2009, 02:40:10 PM

She's been in the game longer than you so obviously she's got time to have screwed up twice compared to your once. ~~Nurupo~~ Null point.

I disagree here. When you're around for the entirety of Day 1 and ignore the scum wagon for the entirety of the day, how does that make you less suspicious than someone who replaced in late and pushed the scum wagon into the lead?

WHMZakeri · « **Reply #574 on:** September 04, 2009, 02:50:33 PM »

The "Frozen Tortellini" votecount

Kitten4u: Kilgamayan, Alice Margatroid, Kiro, Roukanken (L-2)
Edible?: Kitten4U, UncertainKitten (L-4)
Roukanken: UncertainKitten (L-6)

UncertainJakutten · « **Reply #575 on:** September 04, 2009, 03:03:34 PM »

K4U 105 is first serious'd post, reasonably charitable towards Seniwac/

108 still charitable

K4U starts the tunneling in 138

183 is more Seniwac...

264 is explaining the seniwac case, rather well

284 seems like lip service to be honest.

Oh hey, she votes the claimed scum.

374 reads like a fair post. You gotta admit she justifies her tunneling well

435 is a nice excuse to ignore sodium for reals.

Don't like 557...but yeah...

Ok...I actually lean horribly tunnelly town here...but I can't say I'd be too opposed to her lynch since she does look bad at some key points...

(Tastes like eggo...sorry)

But yeah, ##Vote Edible

Vote count updated to this post.

FinnKaenbyou · « **Reply #576 on:** September 04, 2009, 03:24:58 PM »

Agh, you know what, forget it. I should've just said this at the start of the day.

I claim Remilia Scarlet, Phase-Delayed Nightvig. I shot Kitten4U last night, so she's dead at the end of the day. I did so because I expected a wagon on me after I ended up defending scum yesterday.

So unless she turns out to be GF or something and is NK-immune, we may as well be considering a different target. Edible and Pesco are the two I'm probably considering the most right now, but I want to hear a little from Edible before I consider it.

UncertainJakutten · « **Reply #577 on:** September 04, 2009, 03:30:48 PM »

Quote from: Roukanken on September 04, 2009, 03:24:58 PM

Agh, you know what, forget it. I should've just said this at the start of the day.

I claim Remilia Scarlet, Phase-Delayed Nightvig. I shot Kitten4U last night, so she's dead at the end of the day. I did so because I expected a wagon on me after I ended up defending scum yesterday.

So unless she turns out to be GF or something and is NK-immune, we may as well be considering a different target. Edible and Pesco are the two I'm probably considering the most right now, but I want to hear a little from Edible before I consider it.

No reason to not believe you really at this juncture. It's not like gaining "one more day" as scum would help you much.

(also, I feel vindicated for flipping my read on you. Yay rereads!)

Kiro · « **Reply #578 on:** September 04, 2009, 04:33:53 PM »

A night vig eh? Just makes you wonder what Scum have got to counter that. If K4U is the only Scum left, she could be a bulletproof. But a Scum Doc suddenly seems like a decent possibility although I assume it would have to work at Night. And if we assume in this scenario that there are 2 Scum left and it is Serp and Kitten4U, the Night Vig is going to fail because Serp only has one target to protect which is Kitten4U (unless Scum Serp borrowed Scum Kitten's roleclaim which doesn't seem all that likely).

I'm not sure how much of this could be a Scum Gambit by Rou (please tell me it's not a Town gambit) as the only way for Kitten to actually avoid being killed without Rou flat out lying would be if they premediated a protect somewhere and assuming Rou/Kitten also have a Scum Doc between them which runs counter to Rou's Night Vig claim because it would assume someone else has to have a Night Vig or be an SK or something like that. Yay run-on sentences. It would just delay the inevitable and we'd almost lynch K4U for certain in Day 4.

Meh, to make sure though, we'd have to not lynch K4U today. And all this does make Serp a little suspicious as he came out quickly with the protection information, but has no case yet even though I'm sure he noticed the quick wagon on K4U. So I guess the point is that I'm leaning on Rou telling the truth, but maybe we should ignore his shot and just lynch K4U anyways and someone can check Serp at Night if possible if K4U flips Scum and the game doesn't end.

The other bit of unorthodox strategy just off the top of my head, is that we could lynch Rou today to confirm whether he is a Town Night Vig. And if K4U doesn't die with him at the end of Day 3, that means she's protected somehow and Serp already said he protected me. So then we'd know either there's another protective role out there, or Serp lied in some way. I'm not for lynching someone who looks Townie as this claim really doesn't seem to make sense from a Scum point of view, but we have a discretionary mislynch to spare and it reasonably could clear up the offchance of Serp being a Scum Doc. The whole point of doing this would be if we are absolutely certain K4U is Scum and to make certain that we can find out whether she has Serp as a scumbuddy and she will die either at the end of Day 3 along with Rou or we lynch her Day 4 and Serp Day 5 if the game doesn't end. Let's see what people think.

The safest method now that I think about it is to probably lynch K4U anyways as I still think her as-is defense is not enough to clear her. If she flips Town, then all of the above is invalidated slightly and we can start anew on Day 4 with more information about Serp whether he protected someone again or died.

Kiro · « **Reply #579 on:** September 04, 2009, 04:47:27 PM »

I guess I can also point out that Scum Serp could have protected himself rather than Scum K4U so K4U could theoretically still die from the Vig with Scum Serp still being a buddy. This depends on what a Scum K4U would flip. And all of the above is under the assumption that Scum were given a power to balance out the possibility of a Town Night Vig which we cannot assume is guaranteed in this setup. This whole thing could get quite confusing so yea, maybe it's best to go conservative and lynch a person for scumminess rather than setup shenanigans anyways.

FinnKaenbyou · « **Reply #580 on:** September 04, 2009, 04:57:44 PM »

I'll point out that besides the fact that I have to wait a phase for the kill to actually be carried out, I don't seem to have a limited amount of charges.

I'm considering taking requests for a vig target tonight, but that might be risky given that people are suggesting there might be a scum doc.

I'd expect that since we've already got a vig and a doc at the least (whether the Serp claim is true, or in the unlikely case that Umu was the doc) that there are 4 scum in the setup for balance. There might be a GF, but that's usually only present for cop protection, so it's iffy. Suppose it comes down to how much we think the Jan is worth.

But anyway, I agree we should lynch people on scuminess alone. I'm still basically fuming at Edible for his end-day gambit. Given that Sodium was at L-1 for a while, and Edible had already explicitly said he didn't believe the claim, why did he even try the gambit? It feels like an effort from Scum!Edible to make something useful of the Sodium lynch by putting himself at odds with a flipped scum.

##Unvote: K4U
Vote: Edible

Kilgamayan · « **Reply #581 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:12:38 PM »

Imma have to disagree with the DocYoumu theory and all the ScumSerp theories that stem from it. The Janitor role does not tell Scum what the killed party's role is; it hides the flip from everyone. With no Night 0, Scum would have no way of knowing Youmu was Doc unless one of two things happened:

- Scum have a rolecop, investigated him Night 1, and Zakeri screwed up and gave them the rolecop return before they made their NK choice. I find this highly unlikely.
- Scum were handed a list of who is what at the beginning of the game. Possible, I guess, but I would like to think any mod would realize combining this with a Janitor is obscenely broken.

Occam's Razor says Serp is what he says he is and that Kiro was attacked last night. There's nothing on the table to suggest otherwise, outside of the lack of a rule stating scum must kill at night. @Mod: Are scum forced to kill?
I've answered this before, but no, no one is forced to use their night actions and there will be no result if a person with a night action does not send one in. This includes the scum nightkill.

Similiarly I'm not inclined we're dealing with anything but a lone scum. Suggesting 9/4 is silly for reasons that are best described as "Day 3 LYLO". A doc and a claimed delayed vig are not enough reason for me to believe 9/4 is the case, especially since the vig can actually speed up the process to potential LYLO on Day 2.

Roukan was admittedly on my radar given he avoided both major cases yesterday and went to Edible instead of Sodium after the Lie Detector But Actually Not chicanery, but I'm willing to give his claim a chance to work itself out. ##Unvote: Kitten4U

Should we get a Night 3 and Kay Four Ewe survives is somehow, my vote gets slapped right back on her tomorrow.

Despite my belief that Seniwac shouldn't ever play again, I don't think he's scum given how the trains have shaken down. This leaves me Pesco, Alice, UK and Edible as viable vote targets for me today. I'm going to mull them all over and vote for one in my next post. Based on what I remember from previous thoughts, Edible is my most likely vote, but I'm having gutjerk reactions toward pesco and UK, so we'll see.

FinnKaenbyou · « **Reply #582 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:17:51 PM »

The only times I've ever seen a Janitor role were during games over at one of those turbo-speed Mafia sites. There, Jans were the only ones to learn the role of the hit target, though it came with the disadvantage that they couldn't tell anyone until the next night. It was a 1-shot Jan, as well.

So I suppose it doesn't help that the role was sort of ambiguous. >_>

And Kilga, Pesco asked earlier. Scum are allowed to forego the NK if they so desire, throwing us into a wonderful world of WIFOM. >_>

Kilgamayan · « **Reply #583 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:20:54 PM »

*Similiarly I'm not inclined to believe we're dealing with anything but a lone scum.

The only Janitors I've ever worked with were not told the identity of their target.

Pesco · « **Reply #584 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:21:55 PM »

I see I forgot to vote before I went to class.

##Vote Edible

Mod already confirmed that scum may choose not to kill. I asked that yesterday. Optimal scum play given the situation would still be to kill someone. That alone should be enough to clear doubts on Serp and Kiro.

Kiro · « **Reply #585 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:22:34 PM »

You have no charges on your Vig Rou? That's a ridiculous oversight by Zakeri if he forgot to mention it. Not sure the mod would actually answer a specific question about a person's role. Or your role is more powerful than I could have possibly imagined.

Otherwise, you sure you're not an SK??? But then, you going through the trouble of roleclaiming early like that and mentioning the fact you think you have multiple charges is pretty damn gutsy if you are an SK. Argh, confusion!

Cut by Kilga's post: Now that you mention it, 4 Scum in a 13 player game does seem kinda ridiculous. 3 Scum and 1 SK is worse. 2 Scum and 1 SK? Maybe... I think I need a fresh reread ~~and a new pair of pants~~.

Kilgamayan · « **Reply #586 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:22:50 PM »

Yea Occam's Razor again says Kiro was attacked last night over scum forgoing their kill.

Kilgamayan · « **Reply #587 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:23:44 PM »

Kiro: SKRoukan would have been better served voting Sodium than Edible yesterday.

OKAY REALLY NEED TO DO THAT REREAD

FinnKaenbyou · « **Reply #588 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:30:23 PM »

I've reread my role PM again to double-check, and the only reference it makes to any sort of limit is that I can only do it once per night.
Then again, considering that the last game I remember Zak running was Moriya Shrine Mafia AKA THIRTY SECOND LONG NIGHT PHASES this probably isn't too surprising. >_>

Would like to hear Edible actually comment on the case on him. >_>

Pesco · « **Reply #589 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:33:19 PM »

It was 6 seconds for the night phase.

The worse six seconds of my life, every time, too.

Edible · « **Reply #590 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:41:46 PM »

I've caught up with the thread. As I said yesterday, I fully understand the case against me and there's very little defense outside of bad play.

If Kitten is dead tonight, and Rou has claimed to kill her by phase-delay (and you thought I had a weird role?), then I am far and away the obvious lynch for today. I'm not going to delay the game further.

I claim Tenshi Hinanai, vanilla townie. Town has nothing to lose from lynching me, and everything to gain.

Edible · « **Reply #591 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:45:44 PM »

For what it's worth, though, I don't think Kitten is scum. She would have made a conscious, solo decision to lynch Kiro, who is a classic NK target for old-school scum around these parts. Either she's a much better judge of character than I'm giving her credit for, or someone with more experience here is scum.

WHMZakeri · « **Reply #592 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:48:06 PM »

The "Ice Tea" votecount

Kitten4u: Kilgamayan, Alice Margatroid, Kiro, Roukanken (L-4)
Edible?: Kitten4U, UncertainKitten, Roukanken, Pesco (L-2)
Roukanken: UncertainKitten (L-6)

a little over 60 hours remains.

Pesco · « **Reply #593 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:48:25 PM »

You do know the old games are linked in the archive thread right?

FinnKaenbyou · « **Reply #594 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:51:04 PM »

Edible: Roleclaim while nowhere near L-1? Check. No attempt to defend self? Check. Explicitly trying to get himself lynched? Check.

...Mod, confirm/deny the potential existence of a Fool/Jester, please?

Edible · « **Reply #595 on:** September 04, 2009, 05:58:04 PM »

You're reading too much into it. It's D3 and Town has one loss thus far, even assuming u? was town. More information can be gleaned from me dead than alive, and they can stand to mislynch once or twice especially if something useful comes out of it.

@pesco: It's a moot point, if Kitten is Already Dead.

Pesco · « **Reply #596 on:** September 04, 2009, 06:00:03 PM »

Quote from: Roukanken on September 04, 2009, 05:51:04 PM

Edible: Roleclaim while nowhere near L-1? Check. No attempt to defend self? Check. Explicitly trying to get himself lynched? Check.

...Mod, confirm/deny the potential existence of a Fool/Jester, please?

Are you an idiot?

FinnKaenbyou · « **Reply #597 on:** September 04, 2009, 06:02:14 PM »

If you're Townie, why not at least give some opinions on the other players while you're at it? Current reads, suspicions, anything, but don't sit there saying 'LYNCH ME PLZ'.

Pesco: Sorry, missed it. >_> It wasn't on the front page, and remember I wasn't really around until page 10. T_T

Kitten4u · « **Reply #598 on:** September 04, 2009, 06:04:15 PM »

Quote from: Pesco

The question asks how you think Rou should be judged by others when he's in a similar position to yours.

Sorry, I thought that did answer the question. I think he's town so he should be judged as such? If this is asking what people should do then questioning would probably be good. I don't think we should lynch him though.

Quote from: Pesco

Do you consider Sodium's effort too concentrated to make it a possiblity of bussing?

Yes. It also looks like he was trying to get KGH lynched instead of Zengar.

Quote from: Roukanken

Firstly, the 'it makes sense but I don't agree with it' feels slightly like cheerleading, which Sodium just proved is probably a scumtell. >_>

How could I be cheerleading when I was adamantly against his lynch? Seriously, I specifically said that I would not support a Sodium lynch.

Quote from: Roukanken

Secondly, using 'he misread Zengar's vote' as a defense makes no sense because she even admits it makes him look worse, yet not being able to read apparently clears him? The reason I held faith in the daytalk point was because I thought that if he was scum daytalk would be pretty obvious, i.e. it's a mistake that Town would be more likely to make. I don't understand where K4U's basis is on this defense at all - he made a mistake, therefore he's Town?

Not being able to read made me think that he did misread/not read the rules so he really didn't know that scum could day talk. The fact that he consistantly misread things made me think it wasn't faked. I thought I was pretty clear on that.

Quote from: Roukanken

I shot Kitten4U last night, so she's dead at the end of the day. I did so because I expected a wagon on me after I ended up defending scum yesterday.

I'll be dying tonight then if I'm not lynched if you're telling the truth (which I think you are). I'm not bullet proof or anything.

Keeping my vote on Edible.

Kilgamayan · « **Reply #599 on:** September 04, 2009, 06:30:34 PM »

Edible

Useless for most of Day 1, even going so far as to dick around in the middle of the day, dropping nothing more than a "null tell" assessment of Seniwac's claim before vanishing again. Swingvotes Zengar.

Day 2. Votes Serp for reasons I talked about not liking here. Approach similar to Sodium's approach to Zengar on Day 1. Lie Detector But Actually Not shenanigans speak for themselves.

Ninjad by a defeated attitude and a VT claim. Changes nothing.

Pesco

To be honest, the only reason my gut is jerking toward him is because like half of the meaningful posts I've made have had him follow up right behind me with a "me too!" sentiment. Otherwise he's made quality posts pretty much all game. Can't really fault him for much of anything. Most likely town.

Really needs to stop reacting to people finding him suspicious for playing well, though. If you didn't want to lie in this bed you shouldn't have made it in the first place. >_>

UK

Has had a nasty habit of treading the IIoA line all game, but she's been right twice and her Roukanken case today is a good one, so. Probably town.

Alice

Irritating lack of posts is irritating. This is par for the course but that doesn't make it any better. Day 2 bus jump onto Sodium not very likely but certainly plausible. Overall null read and dark horse scum pick if all of Edible, K4U and Roukan flip town.

##Vote: Edible (L-1)