Communication Breakdance (Game Over! Town win)

[Nachtwanderlied]

Which part of my post is your question directed at?

The null read.

[Pesco]

He hasn't answered.

[Serp]

Also, if the same thing is called out in multiple games, wouldn't that suggest that said thing should stop being done?

That depends on whether those calling out said thing are right to do so, of course.

Then there's no vote, which just confirms that you have no suspicions. You're pretty much at L-1 now. (Role)Claim.

Doesn't it seem a bit soon to call for that?  We've still got half the day to go, and from here it looks like Zengar's just got a bunch of prods on him to produce more.  I'd prefer that Zengar just weigh in with some real opinions and keep his role to himself.

[Kitten4u]

I'm going to have to leave for a bit to have a camera shoved down my throat, so this post is going to be quick.  I'm going to be under anestheisa, so if I seem off later that's why.

---

I'm not on the KGH wagon because I think we should policy lynch him, I'm on it because I think he's scum.  Anyone that is on it because they want to policy lynch him should get off the wagon immediately.  Lynches should be reserved for people you think are scum, not for people you think are playing badly.

I still want KGH to answer the question I asked here.  What is the other mistake that the scum made?

I'll outline my case on him once he answers that question.

[Kiro]

KGH: Preventing your own mislynch sometimes involves finding a case worse than yours. The problem is not that there isn't one, but that you don't seem to be trying to pursue one. By allowing the attention to be focused squarely on you, you're not doing anyone any favors, least of all yourself.

Pesco: Chiming in with the mindhax looks like vintage you. Problem is I never understand why you mention it when you don't bother to provide evidence for it. Stop throwing in unneeded WIFOMs! I don't see why you're sticking your neck out to declare that, it just makes things harder on the rest of Town (also vintage you).

Serp: I'll just clarify that my vote on Zengar is not a prod, but an intent to lynch. His choice to still not vote even after acknowledging other people's suggestions telling him to makes him unhelpful and potentially Scum. This is a Day 1 case and he is a new player so there is a reasonable chance for him to convince me to remove my vote, but he has to make the effort to do so first and I'm not going to let him pass on strictly a vote alone.

[Nachtwanderlied]

I'm going to have to leave for a bit to have a camera shoved down my throat, so this post is going to be quick.  I'm going to be under anestheisa, so if I seem off later that's why.

---

I'm not on the KGH wagon because I think we should policy lynch him, I'm on it because I think he's scum.  Anyone that is on it because they want to policy lynch him should get off the wagon immediately.  Lynches should be reserved for people you think are scum, not for people you think are playing badly.

I still want KGH to answer the question I asked here.  What is the other mistake that the scum made?

I'll outline my case on him once he answers that question.

Oh right, that. It's confusing, but I will try my best to explain.

I believe my admitting of the roleclaim was a mistake on my part. UK says that this was taking a bullet for a scum mistake. I respond with "What's there to say that Scum won't make another mistake."

What I mean by this is that there is a chance of scum making mistake. Another, in this context, is referring to the entire course of the game. I meant to argue that just because my mistake could've took a bullet for scum, it does not rule out that scum will make a mistake later.

Oh, and nice loaded question by the way.

[Pesco]

It's an opinion and you guys get it for free. What's so WIFOM about it when I've taken a side?

[Nachtwanderlied]

Pesco: Most possibly a joke about confusion. Kiro's point, that is.

[UncertainJakutten]

Seniwac makes a bunch of newbie mistakes and people train all over him. This sounds a lot like last game. (History lesson: Seniwac has never played a significant Mafia game here. He was Lynched for repeatedly trolling the night time minigames.)

The thing is, the way he talks implies more than average newbie knowledge, and using expertise WIFOM is always a bad thing to do.

Kilga: You're openly bandwagoning me mostly for the people that are also voting me? That sounds opportunistic. However, I want to see what are the reactions to this post.Kilga: You're openly bandwagoning me mostly for the people that are also voting me? That sounds opportunistic. However, I want to see what are the reactions to this post.

Could you elaborate on HOW precisely he's doing this?

Skip to the post-game talk. Stop being lazy.

Then link me. Oh yeah, why did I want this again?

And yes, Zengar is winning the waffle award of 2009...

Anybody got a dayvig?

Kiro reiterates what Pesco said. Not sure I like that

I'm legitimately surprised - in a good way - that I'm only catching up on less than a page every time I wake up.  Thank you~

Page and a half for me. But I had to write a soap opera.

The KGH wagon is bad and the people on it are worse off for it IMO.  *waves at Kitten4u and SP*

This will be remembered should he flip scum. You actually seem rather neutral on it in earlier posts. In the way that it tastes like waffles.

The italicized votes on the vote counts are the ones that have been removed.  Mods on this site like to include those so as to make vote counts as unreadable as possible.

Yet you all complain when I don't...

Umu...discussing Suwako...I kinda didn't mention it earlier like I should have but his rampant agreement with me does not put me at ease. I hope to read a somewhat original post from him soon..

I believe my admitting of the roleclaim was a mistake on my part. UK says that this was taking a bullet for a scum mistake. I respond with "What's there to say that Scum won't make another mistake."

Ah, I misunderstood. In which case your behavior HEAVILY distracts from it. Odds are you'll be lynched for your RVS game and your subsequent missteps. Odds are that's because you're scum. In this case, scum made a series of blunders. Because you are that scum.


I...think I'm caught up. Kiro worries me slightly, Pesco is being somewhat useful, K4U is doing ok, Seniwac is still scummy, Zengar waffles are the breakfast of choice, umu waffles are becoming apparent, Suwako needs to post moar, so does Chen, and anyone else that didn't post over the last 12 hours. Excepting me of course .

[Pesco]

Pesco: Most possibly a joke about confusion. Kiro's point, that is.

Kiro doesn't joke.

[Pesco]

Umu...discussing Suwako...I kinda didn't mention it earlier like I should have but his rampant agreement with me does not put me at ease. I hope to read a somewhat original post from him soon..

Is that Player Umu or moe-moe sound effect?

[UncertainJakutten]

Umu...discussing Suwako...I kinda didn't mention it earlier like I should have but his rampant agreement with me does not put me at ease. I hope to read a somewhat original post from him soon..

Is that Player Umu or moe-moe sound effect?

moe moe. Sorry about that.

[Nachtwanderlied]

UK: And how is umu being waffly here? He's stated his point on my case (that it was anti-town, but not scummy) and why he did not vote. There's also a legitimate reason why his vote's on Zengar (pressure to establish a vote/viewpoint.)

Also I'd like to know what your definiton of a newbie is.

[UncertainJakutten]

UK: And how is umu being waffly here? He's stated his point on my case (that it was anti-town, but not scummy) and why he did not vote. There's also a legitimate reason why his vote's on Zengar (pressure to establish a vote/viewpoint.)

He earlier stated that he didn't agree with the wagon, but was content to let it happen. He's basically implicitly agreeing with a wagon he things will be on a townie, while not being on the wagon itself.

Also I'd like to know what your definiton of a newbie is.

See the US Supreme Court's definition of obscene material I think it was?

[Nachtwanderlied]

what how is obscene material related to newbies

Also: Good point there on umu.  I'd like to know why umu considers the wagon "bad" (umu 166) but doesn't take a stance to stop the wagon itself. Of course, it could be an elaborate FOS.

but what do i know

[Zengar Zombolt]

Waffles are delicious, but I ran out. Sorry~
##Vote Serpentarius
I find it weird that after everything that has been pointed out between your 141 and 182, your position hasn't changed not even a little bit, and on top of it, you haven't commented about it.
BTW,

After some more thinking, I do realize that it may be a newbish stance (I kno rite?)... however my paranoid mind tells me that this is just to lift up some dust.

What does that last part mean, and does it have anything to do with being scum?

It's not about scum, actually. My idea was that moving things a little bit would be beneficial for him.

[?q]

That depends on whether those calling out said thing are right to do so, of course.

*insert a loop of the previous conversation here*

@Kitten4u:  Tonsillectomy?

Kiro 184 seems off.  KGH is not directing attention at himself without using it to implicate someone else.

---

This  [pronouncement that Heniwac is Town] will be remembered should he flip scum. You actually seem rather neutral on it in earlier posts. In the way that it tastes like waffles.

No, I've been fairly consistent in believing Heniwac is Town.  At least as far as I can recall the last 24 hours, my opinion on Heniwac's alignment has not changed.

The summary at the bottom is basically "I'm open to hate anyone at the drop of a hat except maybe K4U and Pesco", which is a waffle in itself.

Eggo should sue us by the end of this game for using and abusing that term so often.

I'll give them a call.
----

He earlier stated that he didn't agree with the wagon, but was content to let it happen. He's basically implicitly agreeing with a wagon he things will be on a townie, while not being on the wagon itself.

Also: Good point there on umu.  I'd like to know why umu considers the wagon "bad" (umu 166) but doesn't take a stance to stop the wagon itself. Of course, it could be an elaborate FOS.

For one, I don't FoS except in extreme circumstances.
For two, the wagon is bad because so far nobody has been able to show convincingly why you are *scum* and not *an unhelpful Townie*, yet you've been put at L-1... for pressure, apparently.  Maybe they want a claim?

By opening your mouth and saying anti-Town things you invited a second look, which you got from UK and SJMoriya.  Since then I believe you have demonstrated that you are trying to scumhunt and otherwise be useful, which begs the question of why there is still a wagon on you other than for a policy lynch, especially with SodiumPeroxide wondering how he wound up on the tail end of the train.  To that end, I'm quite interested in K4U's case (or anyone else's case in a pinch) on Heniwac.

----

It's not about scum, actually. My idea was that moving things a little bit would be beneficial for him.

Thhhhhhheeeeennnnn how does that involve paranoia on your part?

[Sodium]

I just tried unlocking UFO Stage 6 Hard for stage practice for three hours straight(and ended up ragequitting). I'm a bit tired(understatement), but I'll just answer a question.

Heniwac: Derp. I meant that I could change my vote to Zengar at anytime, so he should consider me having a vote on him. Then I misread which one of you were at L-2 and L-3(Thought Zengar was at L-2, and you were at L-3 >_>), so I thought that he would be at L-1 if I were voting for him, instead of L-2.

So basically, I misread something the mod wrote. =V

Uh, might as well answer a few more. Less for me to answer later after all...

Defending yourself isn't scummy, but if it's the only thing you're doing, then there's a problem. Also, Protip, the best way of defending yourself is to show how you're town by scumhunting. I don't see you doing that. Asking questions does not mean scumhunting. It's only a part of scum hunting, the other part being actual analysis of answers and posts. Have you actually come to any conclusions from your questioning?

Edible said his second joke vote after there was legitimate things to discuss. Now, he just isn't contributing to discussion, and active lurking. So yeah, my reason for not liking him changed.

Oh, and lastly, Bold votes/unvotes. You forgot to on your last unvote.

Zengar voted. I'm tired. Next post which will be in a couple of hours.

[Sodium]

EBWOP:Uh, I mean I'll comment it on my next post which will be in a couple of hours.

[Zengar Zombolt]

It's not about scum, actually. My idea was that moving things a little bit would be beneficial for him.

Thhhhhhheeeeennnnn how does that involve paranoia on your part?

Because I've been thinking all the possibilities. I've already thought him being an SK, a Survivor, Townie with Power roles, Scum with everything scum can have, EVERYTHING. And not only him, but several other people too. That's why I was so waffly at the beggining. I need to focus more on what I'm seeing, not what I'm thinking.

[Nachtwanderlied]

What's "actual analysis of answers and posts?" Why isn't analyzing a post and asking questions not considered it?

And please be wary that this is the middle of Day 1 and you shouldn't expect one to come to definite conclusions about who is who.

Also I especially like how your vote is not entirely based around my scumminess from 152. I don't really believe personal annoyance is an acceptable reason for lynching.

[Kiro]

Perhaps I didn't word it right, but KGH is acting too reactionary.

What could I possibly be diverting attention from? This is the only topic in discussion, so I can't possibly divert the topic from itself to itself.

All of his comments and suspicions are in relation to his earlier action and it's all framed within his own alignment which only he knows. And he was not making an effort to try to leave it behind, instead keeping it more relevant than it should be. It's a goddamn vanilla roleclaim, there are so many angles you can go with that which have been discussed so why can't he just drop it? All of his posts are hypotheticals about himself and other people voting him, does us little good when we don't know what his alignment is. It's easy to talk about oneself that way, but I want to see him discuss something outside of his comfort zone and talk about topics that are unrelated to his vanilla roleclaim. He is starting to get away from that beginning #167, but still refers back to it occasionally.

---

Zengar: Not too sure what Serp's position on how people should be analyzing stuff or going from RVS to real discussion affects his scumminess. Explain more please.

Can't address some of these cuts, rushing out to lunch now.

[Kilgamayan]

We've still got half the day to go, and from here it looks like Zengar's just got a bunch of prods on him to produce more.  I'd prefer that Zengar just weigh in with some real opinions and keep his role to himself.

That's not the only reason my vote is on him. His approach to Seniwac has been "I'm not sure exactly what to do here so I'm going to hang back and ride the fence for a while". A townie's approach to Seniwac would be "Is this scummy or not?" whereas a scum's approach would be "How do I handle this weird situation?". Zengar has exhibited the latter more than the former.

[UncertainJakutten]

what how is obscene material related to newbies

Half serious joke. There was a case where a judge deemed something not obscene material and stated that obscenity can't really be given a guideline, it's more an "I know it when I see it" thing.

No, I've been fairly consistent in believing Heniwac is Town.  At least as far as I can recall the last 24 hours, my opinion on Heniwac's alignment has not changed.

But your stance itself is, while not precisely a waffle, more of a not doing anything to stop what you see as a townie lynch, but divorcing yourself just enough from it should he flip town. You also initially were like "The wagon is ok, I just don't think it'll end well" to "If you are on the heniwac wagon, you look bad"

Since then I believe you have demonstrated that you are trying to scumhunt and otherwise be useful,

I do not see this. What I see is a lot of rhetoric and attempts to confuse the issue regarding the case on him.

[?q]

But your stance itself is, while not precisely a waffle, more of a not doing anything to stop what you see as a townie lynch, but divorcing yourself just enough from it should he flip town.

Do you think I should have immediately called out the people who voted Heniwac saying NO I THINK THIS GUYS TOWN YOU UNVOTE NAO because I did not believe that Heniwac's play was scummy?
I expected that you would come to that conclusion on your own.  Heniwac then proceeded to open his mouth and make himself sound bad, which did not change my opinion of his alignment but certainly validated his wagon.

Since then, all of the problems I can think of caused by his vote-garnering commentary have been answered, which led to my opposition to the wagon.  So...

You also initially were like "The wagon is ok, I just don't think it'll end well" to "If you are on the heniwac wagon, you look bad"

...this is correct.

As for your side of the issue...

What I see is a lot of rhetoric and attempts to confuse the issue regarding the case on him.

I don't know what exactly the case is on him.  Please help a poor, innocent spirit out.

[UncertainJakutten]

Do you think I should have immediately called out the people who voted Heniwac saying NO I THINK THIS GUYS TOWN YOU UNVOTE NAO because I did not believe that Heniwac's play was scummy?

I think if you disagreed you should have taken a less middle of the road stance and backed it up

I don't know what exactly the case is on him.  Please help a poor, innocent spirit out.

Anti town behavior, lack of scum hunting, attempts to confuse the issue by attack such things as his experience rather than actually addressing what he did, and what he did itself, with ADMITTING he wanted to do something anti town to break out of the RVS phase...

[Nachtwanderlied]

A few notes.

Edible: Back in 117, you've stated that UK makes you feel uneasy. Has this changed? Please give a reason why or why not.

UK: What's so wrong with Kiro? His stance is focused on Zengar more than my WOOHOOwagon as seen from 161 and even more so from 201.

[UncertainJakutten]

UK: What's so wrong with Kiro? His stance is focused on Zengar more than my WOOHOOwagon as seen from 161 and even more so from 201.

No original thought really. It's a lot of parroting from what I read. I think his latest post was a little less of that.

[Nachtwanderlied]

Then why don't you tell me those non-orignal parrot thoughts? And why does his latest post less worrisome?

[UncertainJakutten]

Then why don't you tell me those non-orignal parrot thoughts? And why does his latest post less worrisome?

More original thought. I'll point out the specifics when I feel like doing that and not watching Nadesico.