NSP Mafia - Game Over

[Raikaria]

OK; so:

Worth mentioning Sky voted NNR during RVS. Just a thing to point out. Might be indicative of something; might not be. Could be a harmless RVS vote on a scumbuddy to instantly throw us off; but this is very minor; and it is equally possible that it's not.

Start of the game; BBM; myself and Junko all get bad impressions about NNR's #41 where he voted Zakeri

I still find this vote by Zakeri weird

In the event simply logic isn't enough; here's Sky's #64 giving us another reason to not lynch Polaris

He also attacks Zakeri somewhat in that post.

NNR's #70 is accused as being Follow the Leader in DNA's #71.

OK; Sky/DNA is not a thing

This might be useful but for the life of me I can't figure out if it is oor not

Sky's message

Well, that's kind of tough because up until the last few hours of the phase, the only people who really posted at all were BBM, SB, Zak, DNA and myself.  Do we have a five way towny slapfight?

Of these we pretty much know the alignments of them all except this one. And Zak didn't even do much D1 so it feels weird Sky added him.

DNA gets cut and instantly votes Sky. Again; DNA is not Sky's scumbuddy

Bard comes in and instantly misreps me. He claimed I had given no opinions which is a very different thing to the actuality; where I had given 2 concrete opinions.

Also don't like the way he glosses over Shadoweh because he thought 'she'd react without being voted' and tunnels on me. But I made this clear Day 2. This misrep combined with his seeming insistence to lynch DNA at this point is making me not confident about his slot.

NNR joins in on the misrep wagon. I gave a scumread as well as a townread. The incredibly vague 'posts are bad' reason is bad too.

Note this is the 2nd time NNR has possibly acted in a 'follow the leader' way. Junko points out NNR's actions too.

This is a small thing that supports DNA+Sky.

Also; NNR calls Sky confirmed scum but is still voting for me. He is clearly attempting to change the topic and the wagon.

This post by Shadoweh is good and everyone should read it.

So... people think DNA is scumbuddies with Sky how? He's literally done nothing but try to lynch DNA all game

Leaning town on NNR and Raikaria because they both voted in the right place on day 1 even though they both did virtually nothing.  Raikaria has the melon thing, I didn't really read in to it yet because *sleep* I'll look in the morning.  I don't care what the detractors of Raikaria say, he was right to challenge SB for his vote at the last minute and BBM/SB cost us the no-lynch, not Raikaria.  They had two votes, he had one, four plus two is six.  DNA should have been lynched and then we would probably be discussing which of the ones on my wagon are scum. 

I already said I made a mistake Day 1. But NNR? Hmm.

Hey guys let's ignore the confirmed scum and look for someone else! - NNR. Admittedly he thinks we have a vig but still; saying to 'set sky to the side' isn't cool.

Also the entire NNR/DNA slapfight. DNA/Polaris is town.

In fact despite acting like and saying that Sky is confirmed scum for all of Day 2; NNR never actually voted for Sky.

I do assume Skypal is scum, he was caught by a tracker visiting a dead person, that's fucking incriminating. I haven't even bothered to read his posts since then but I'm pretty sure they're a load of crap from what I've seen from the responses.
I can't assume you are scum because you're protected from your above role, and I'm forced to go along with ~rolespec~ because you were [apparently] roleblocked and there's no reason to disbelieve you at this point.
Sure, you could be a lying scumbag who is throwing Skypal under the bus and conveniently also didn't die when you tried to visit him, but that's just assuming a lot of shit now.

We have to essentially waste a lynch on Skypal today because we already know he's scum and therefore don't have to argue making reasons why he is scummy, and the votes on him are essentially voteparks until deadline comes around. Today is about finding his scumbuddy, which only about half the players here seem content on doing.

Wait; what?! How on earth is lynching CONFIRMED SCUM a Wasted Lynch?

#Vote: NNR

He spent all of Day 2 saying Sky was scum but looking for someone else to start a wagon on. He never once voted for 'confirmed scum' and even went so far as to say lynching 'confirmed scum' is 'a wasted lynch'. This is not a town opinion.
Sky thought he was town and never really said much about him.
His play has been either defensive or following someone else's [bad] case for the majority of the game. [See: following the Bard misrep]
The massive fight with DNA; who is clearly not alighned with Sky Paladin, also makes me doub the two are of the same alignment.

[Raikaria]

Also Sky voting NNR during RVS might be attempting to throw us off; seeing as my conclusion is NNR is the most likly one to be scum.

Fairly confident Shadoweh is town. Zak and Bard are about even IMO and I'm not impressed with the play of either of them and if NNR isn't scum I'd look here.

[Raikaria]

And seriously guys; we know there's a scum roleblocker and since DNA claimed D1 he as a perfectly legitimate roleblock target.

And Sky spent literally all game trying to lynch DNA.

And DNA voted Sky as soon as BBM claimed. [I think he got cut; that explains the reactions in his vote post]

There's no way Sky and DNA are scumbuddies unless the pair literally spent the entire game bussing each other.

[NekoNekoRex]

We have to essentially waste a lynch on Skypal today because we already know he's scum [as opposed to being able to vig him to find his buddy]

Your main sticking point is taken really out of context there :/

[NekoNekoRex]

In fact go read the rest of the paragraph in that quote and tell me what you think. That's some pretty serious misrep.

[Polaris]

In fact ##Vote: Poly

I haven't liked Poly's slot the whole game, from DNA's votes to his antagonism, and his unclear on his role just kind of does it for me. I don't need to be afraid of voting his slot now because of that.

Poly was replaced by Bard in Day 1 B(

[NekoNekoRex]

pre-cut by Polaris
##Vote: Polaris then, it's obvious which slot I mean anyway.

note I never actually assumed we had a vig, I just took the possibility for it when I took the bait with DNA's harassment.

[Raikaria]

In fact go read the rest of the paragraph in that quote and tell me what you think. That's some pretty serious misrep.

It's not just that paragraph where you say 'Sky is scum' but never vote him and keep trying to change the topic away from him.

And considering part of this 'looking for other scum' was jumping on Bard's misrep of me... it just looked like you were frantically trying to find anything that could buy Sky another day or distract the town.

And no; it is NEVER a waste of a lynch to lynch confirmed scum. Any number of things can go wrong with Vig shots. There could be avest if it's a Dayvig. The Vig might get roleblocked if it's a nightvig [And hey; there's a scum roleblocker!]. There might even be a ScumDoc or something. The lynch is a 100% way of killing the scum. A Vig is not.

[NekoNekoRex]

I spent D2 hunting for Skypal's buddy. I was already sure he would flip red, since there was no doubt in BBM's tracking claim, and Skypal didn't have a believable excuse for it.

I don't see a problem with DNA+Sky since Sky was caught D2 and trying to 'bus' his buddy with his unbelievable posts is a completely valid way to try and put distance between them. Anything Sky can do to make his buddy less suspicious is a valid action to keep the scumteam alive

[Raikaria]

I mean I could link literally every post where you say Sky is scum but don't actually vote him and try to do something else. I don't think I've even linked or quoted half of them.

I spent D2 hunting for Skypal's buddy. I was already sure he would flip red, since there was no doubt in BBM's tracking claim, and Skypal didn't have a believable excuse for it.

I don't see a problem with DNA+Sky since Sky was caught D2 and trying to 'bus' his buddy with his unbelievable posts is a completely valid way to try and put distance between them. Anything Sky can do to make his buddy less suspicious is a valid action to keep the scumteam alive

Except Sky spent all of Day 1 voting DNA as well.

He did it log before he was caught.

[Bardiche]

Wow, Raikaria.

Hey guys let's ignore the confirmed scum and look for someone else! - NNR.

If Skypal were vigged then we could set him aside and hunt for the other scum today.

IF SkyPal were vigged, THEN we could. You complain so much about me misrepresenting your "concrete opinions" (really, I hold that getting "concrete opinions" one hour before deadline is worthless), and then you turn around and do the exact same thing to NNR. I thought we had a Dayvig as well, and I also agree that regardless of everything, shooting Confirmed Town > all else. If that happened, we could've continued discussion on D2 instead of sit around with everyone anxious for the flip, and allow Scum an NK right after a Scum lynch. I can't believe that after complaining so much about misrepping, you're doing it very viciously yourself, cherrypicking whatever suits your case, even if you have to drag it out of context.


RE: Good post by Shadoweh, I'll just mention her failure to vote and how that's just a cheerlead. I'll also mention a few posts up she mentions:

Also if I'm reading what DNA is saying correctly he almost screwed us over by 'confirming' Sky, and if he's not telling the truth about his role he should come out and say it.

Which NNR also astutely pointed out: DNA had initially come into Day 2 saying Sky Paladin was confirmed Town alongside him. Let that sink in for a moment. DNA had intended to claim a clear on Sky Paladin by virtue of his role.
DNA had intended to lie about his role and had tried to use it to confirm a now-confirmed-as-Scum-player as Town.

The entire premise to shoot down DNA/SkyPal rests solely on "they couldn't possibly have been bussing" and "Scum MUST have roleblocked N1", coupled with willing suspension of belief that a Town!DNA would lie so vigorously and respond so violently to accusations of being a liar. The belief that's being perpetuated that a Town!DNA would, for no reason at all, lie about clearing Sky Paladin, lie about clearing NNR, lie about his role and viciously attack anyone implying such. The belief that DNA would "misread" his role PM and never clear any of that up until BBM presses him on it. Why? What is so amazing about DNA that even if he acts in the most textbook Pro-Scum way possible, you still perpetuate a belief that there is absolutely no way that he is Scum?

At first you all happily accepted that NNR couldn't be Scum due to DNA's clear of him, but now that DNA's revealed to have been lying viciously, you instead conclude that NNR could be Scum? What? That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

We have no indication that the roleblock is multiple shot. Why can't there be a JOAT? Why is it completely and utterly believable that there are two roles to waylay BBM, one role being confirmable (fruit vendor) and the other being a blanket excuse for "doesn't matter if you track me to people who got roleblocked/killed, coincidence, my role does nothing"?

[NekoNekoRex]

If not Raikaria implies that her role makes it impossible for her to be a scum roleblocker.

This is also implying that DNA has a legitimate roleclaim, which I am currently assuming he is, and that he was actually roleblocked.

I also would like someone to vig Sky now so he'll be dead and out of the way. I do plan to consolidate on him at day's end to secure a lynch if need be, but my vote is being put towards finding the other scum as well.

I don't think I can get a read tonight, it'll have to wait till morning.

Sky was trying to bus DNA the whole game, yes, but I still don't see a problem with it. Other scum have played the Ultrabus game before, with good results.

[NekoNekoRex]

EBWOP I forgot to mention why i quoted that

I also would like someone to vig Sky now so he'll be dead and out of the way. I do plan to consolidate on him at day's end to secure a lynch if need be, but my vote is being put towards finding the other scum as well.

I wanted to point out this line in particular.

[Bardiche]

And seriously guys; we know there's a scum roleblocker and since DNA claimed D1 he as a perfectly legitimate roleblock target.

And Sky spent literally all game trying to lynch DNA.

And DNA voted Sky as soon as BBM claimed. [I think he got cut; that explains the reactions in his vote post]

There's no way Sky and DNA are scumbuddies unless the pair literally spent the entire game bussing each other.

Raikaria, really. Think about it this way: Only Scum would know that BBM's results were accurate. He didn't question anything, he just jumped onto it asap. That's really not a point in Townie favour. At best it's null.

[Raikaria]

And I don't understand why you are so insistent that Sky and DNA were bussing the entire game; despite the fact that they almost got each other lynched D1 as well as trying to lynch each other Day 2.

To me Scum!DNA's actions make no sense whatsoever, and Scum!DNA makes no sense whatsoever taking into account his interactions with Sky during both Day 1 and Day 2. It is this combination that makes me sure Polaris is town.

But hey; if you don't agree; just convince everyone else to vote Polaris. But I can assure you that I will not be voting Polaris today barring some outright damning evidence other than 'DNA told a stupid lie that doesn't even make sense to make as scum'.

Seriously; can you explain why DNA being scum makes any logical sense at all other than 'He lied'; considering his lie makes absolutely no sense from a scum perspective?

EBWOP I forgot to mention why i quoted thatI wanted to point out this line in particular.

And yet despite no Vig happening you still never decided to give up on waiting for this magical vig and vote the confirmed scum.

Raikaria, really. Think about it this way: Only Scum would know that BBM's results were accurate. He didn't question anything, he just jumped onto it asap. That's really not a point in Townie favour. At best it's null.

'This guy I am confident is townie says he has a guilty on someone I thought was scummy anyway. Let's vote the guy I think is scummy'.

How does this stance not make any sense?

[Raikaria]

Heck; I can think of a town perspective for DNA's lie:

'Hey scum roleblocker come roleblock me I'll die if you do! *Is actually a useless role*'

Contuation of the lie after D1 is bad still and makes me want to punch him in the face but still; that lie makes absolutely no sense as scum. Why on earth would scum claim a role, and then claim a situation happened where they should have died, disproving their own role? That makes absolutely no sense at all.

[Polaris]

but I am the shining light of town here to save you all ;_; why can't you just accept me for who I am

(I'll post more seriously when I can get to my computer. Also, where is Zakeri anyway.)

[NekoNekoRex]

And yet despite no Vig happening you still never decided to give up on waiting for this magical vig and vote the confirmed scum.

That may have something to do with the interesting situation I woke up to in which SKY SUICIDED TO END THE DAY EARLY

[Raikaria]

Speaking of that:

Just kidding, I can't afford to have you get another confirmed town/detective result. 

Junko said he was targeting Shadoweh.

Sky basically confirmed for us Shadoweh is town.

[Raikaria]

Actually wait no that idea is stupid. Sky could have said that just to make us think that. And he could have done the selfhammer to stop a guilty on Shadow just as much as a townclear on Shadoweh.

And Junko why did you have to say you were gonna use a daycop Q_Q

[Bardiche]

In fact, in this post DNA claims the following:

the cop (me in this case) dies and leaves no result and can be easily tempered with even by roleblocking

That last part is important because he doesn't mention the Tracker and Doctor being "tempered with even by roleblocking"; this holds true for all cases.

for regardless of whether i am hooked or not, i probably will be alive anyway due to the doc.

There's absolutely zilch in this post that implies he re-read his role PM and understands he won't die due to being roleblocked. Mostly because even after not dying, his explanation for everything is that N1 must have worked out such that a Doc protected him while SB claimed Guarding him, and that a Doc would prevent his role's self-destruct mechanism. Hilariously, he proposes there is "one more junk role" to mess up investigations, even though he has that junk role. He's flat-out pretending he doesn't have it.

as trying to lynch each other Day 2.

DNA had to lynch Sky Pal D2, BBM tracked him. For Sky Paladin, who favours logic, it's easier to make a case he knows rings true than bullshit a case.

Seriously; can you explain why DNA being scum makes any logical sense at all other than 'He lied'; considering his lie makes absolutely no sense from a scum perspective?

DNA being Scum makes sense because claiming an investigative role at L-3, then using that claim to try and clear Sky Paladin D2 benefits Scum immensely. Claiming a clear on NNR and then killing NNR on the next night would also make perfect sense from Scum trying to validate their role by revealing correct results. Lying about being roleblocked and then actually roleblocking someone the next Night makes perfect sense for Scum trying to validate their lies.

How does this stance not make any sense?

It makes no sense because despite trying to get Sky Paladin lynched Day 1, he reversed into "Sky Paladin is confirmed Townie" on the onset, then without further argument accepts that his Confirmed Townread is actually Scum. That makes no sense.

[Bardiche]

Contuation of the lie after D1 is bad still and makes me want to punch him in the face but still; that lie makes absolutely no sense as scum. Why on earth would scum claim a role, and then claim a situation happened where they should have died, disproving their own role? That makes absolutely no sense at all.

As I've said a million times...
DNA made a claim at a very weird time: 30 minutes before deadline, at L-3. L-3 isn't exactly a situation in which a Cop needs to hurriedly claim without reading their Role PM. In fact, he implies he had all of Day 1 to read his role PM, and then didn't read it until the end. This is his explanation for the inconsistencies in his claim: DNA claims he hadn't read his role PM until it was 30 minutes before deadline and he panicked.

Now, DNA offered not to act at all. SB strongly discouraged this and said he should act on Sky Paladin. A Town!DNA and a Scum!DNA can both not refuse this.

DNA's first post of Day 2 says he's blocked, but also that Sky Paladin is Confirmed Town.
Let's say DNA was Town: He could not have claimed anything else, because he survived Copping a Scum.
Let's say DNA was Scum: He could not have claimed anything else without modifying his claim, because he survived Copping a Scum.

No matter what, DNA had to come up with an excuse that would allow for his survival in the event that Sky Paladin would be lynched later on. This makes some sense, please consider:
If DNA was Scum who hurriedly made a bad fakeclaim, then was forced to act on Sky Paladin and claimed no roleblock of any kind, then Sky Paladin's death would immediately cause his own death and they'd lose the game. Scum!DNA can't allow that to happen.
If DNA was Town who hurriedly made a bad fakeclaim, then was forced to act on Sky Paladin and claimed no roleblock of any kind, then Sky Paladin's death would immediately cause his own death and his play would be grounds from banning him from future games. Town!DNA can't let that happen, because he'd be actively fucking with the game and risking modkill/banning from future Mafia games.
If DNA was Town who actually made a trueclaim, he would STILL need an explanation for why he survived despite Copping Scum.

DNA's proposal that he got Roleblocked and Doc'd and thereby survived copping Scum without even asking the mod anything about it deserves extreme scrutiny and yet you stalwartly refuse to give it thus.

[Bardiche]

What I'm basically proposing here is thus:

DNA isn't a very good/strong Mafia player and made a massive blunder in his roleclaim shenanigans.

[Bardiche]

Like, we can argue all we want about how it doesn't make sense, how it's sub-optimal, how he won't last to the end-game... But this assumes DNA has the clarity to consider all this and look that far forward. I'm sorry, I just think DNA was honest when he said he panicked, but he just panicked and made a terrible fakeclaim. I don't subscribe to the idea that Scum cannot make mistakes. They're just as fallible as Townies, not to be raised on some pedestal where you think the play is sub-optimal and therefore not Scum. His actions make little sense and are horrible play on either side of the cake, but much more easy to swallow as Scum trying to salvage a lost cause than a Townie intent on fucking over everything and everyone in the game but Scum.

[Bardiche]

Chainposting is town etc.

Maybe I expect too much of Vhaltz, but from his intervention, Vhaltz said that "anyone who got more behavioural prods would get modkilled instead". I think that means he gave out behavioural prods already. I just don't think Vhaltz would allow a player so much leniency in being violent and abusive, while also disrupting the gamestate by blatantly lying about his role, leading everyone by the nose and fucking up the entire game "just because he's DNA".

Maybe I'm just the only Mod who would modkill a player for not playing to win. And if DNA is Town? He wasn't playing to win.

[Polaris]

Is it too late to ask for a tactical modkill on this slot just so you don't waste a lynch on me >_> <_<

[Polaris]

Check it out, I'm on my computer now, as evidenced by my transition from OS X to Windows B) (although I was using Chrome on my iPad, so I dunno why it says Safari.)

I don't like having to waste time defending DNA's actions, but I figure this deserves a mention. DNA was saying Skypal was "townie obvtown" in his D2 opening post because Skypal had just done Announcer shenanigans overnight.

[Raikaria]

Fine; we'll do this your way Bard. I'll assume DNA is a moron. And hell; Polly doesn't even seem to want to play after what his slot's done.

#Unvote
#Vote: Polaris

[Polaris]

Is it too late to ask for a tactical modkill on this slot just so you don't waste a lynch on me >_> <_<

Raikaria this is a subtle way of saying DON'T LYNCH ME

[Polaris]

I'm actually kind of offended that you're implying I don't want to play B(