Rumia: Extra Stage material but doesn't understand?

[Cybeast710]

Now I'm sure most of you think I am referring to her EX Form. I am not. I have a chain of logic here that should be interesting.

1. Rumia's ability is manipulation of darkness.
2. Darkness is "a lack of light"
3. Shadows are also a lack of light.
4. Therefore, she could potentially manipulate shadows.
5. Shadows are caused by the caster physically blocking the light.
6. Therefore, IF she can manipulate the shadow, by definition she must also manipulate its caster.
7. Now what if she made the shadow smaller?
8. Manipulation of shadows lends itself to shadow travel rather easily...
9. As a person is tied to their shadow and a person is tied to their skillset, it is possible that Rumia could use that person's skillset through their shadow.
10. So to summarize, she could use anyone's powers except for those without shadows (i.e. PROBABLY Yukari) and manipulate the forms of those with shadows.
11. Good thing she's such a dimwit, huh?

[nintendonut888]

That chain is clipped at the second link when you consider that you may be misinterpreting Rumia's ability juuuuust a little bit. People love to make extrapolations of a character's abilities from the vague description, but I don't think their abilities come from the description, but the descriptions are an approximation of what they can do. "Manipulation of darkness" is relatively firmly stated in PMiSS to be the ability to make the area around her dark, and it's even stated that her grasp of it is so insignificant she can only go as far as to make it appear to be evening. I somehow doubt it extends beyond that if she cannot even have absolute control over what is canonically confirmed to be within her abilities.

[Cybeast710]

That chain is clipped at the second link when you consider that you may be misinterpreting Rumia's ability juuuuust a little bit. People love to make extrapolations of a character's abilities from the vague description, but I don't think their abilities come from the description, but the descriptions are an approximation of what they can do. "Manipulation of darkness" is relatively firmly stated in PMiSS to be the ability to make the area around her dark, and it's even stated that her grasp of it is so insignificant she can only go as far as to make it appear to be evening. I somehow doubt it extends beyond that if she cannot even have absolute control over what is canonically confirmed to be within her abilities.

Saw this coming... I love it when you people do this. Why do I even try. Excuse me for not having read the damn manga. And I said already she was a dimwit and therefore couldn't use it anyway. Also, that was a PERFECT WASTE OF AN OBJECTION OPPORTUNITY.

[an unmatched sock]

Vampires don't cast shadows.

Remilia can just sic Flandre on Rumia (or deal with it herself, depending on whether she feels like Rumia should barely live or not live). No shadow, Rumia is powerless. Incident solved.

 :toot:

[Tengukami]

Saw this coming... I love it when you people do this. Why do I even try. Excuse me for not having read the damn manga.

Hey, whoah, we all love theory on this board. They're fun to make, and fun to examine. Using all available source material is just a crucial part of that. I haven't read all the written material, either, but fortunately, it is easy enough to check specific parts of written material on characters through the wiki. In this way you can check whether or not said theory holds up without having to have read every Touhou canon work out there. In some, if not most cases, this takes minutes to do. If you anticipate that someone's going to examine your theory for veracity - and you say you saw this coming, you're right, that's a very reasonable expectation - then you could take a few minutes to check up on the data points. Who knows? Might lead you to a more solid theory.

[Rei Scarlette]

Vampires don't cast shadows.

Of course, I have no idea if anything else said in canon might contradict this screenshot. Whether or not they cast shadows isn't interesting to me, so I haven't honestly looked into it, but I did remember this very clearly being the opposite of what I expected to see. :V Seeing as how, as NekoNekoRex said below, traditionally they are not supposed to cast shadows at all.

[NekoNekoRex]

The Devs Didn't Think Of Everything

Traditionally, Vampires don't cast a shadow, among other superstitions, like:
-They don't have a reflection
-Can't go in a house uninvited
-Can't cross running water
-Dislike garlic

etc etc there's a lot of them, and they're all weaksauce weaknesses.

[Rei Scarlette]

The Devs Didn't Think Of Everything

Traditionally, Vampires don't cast a shadow, among other superstitions, like:
-They don't have a reflection
-Can't go in a house uninvited
-Can't cross running water
-Dislike garlic

etc etc there's a lot of them, and they're all weaksauce weaknesses.

Oh, I do understand this traditional Vampire stuff. I just thought it was funny that they were, in fact, casting shadows right there. Because they did remember to stop her from going outside without equipping a parasol, after all, so it's pretty silly if they forgot a detail that is directly tied to sunlight which they were already dealing with.
Thank you though. How much of this actually applies to Vampires in Touhou? Eh, maybe that's a question better asked in the misc. questions topic. I don't wanna derail this or anything.

[NekoNekoRex]

I think there's actually a section of an article on wikipedia that says how it applies to touhou, let me go find it...

FakeEdit:
Touhou vampires are weak to sunlight, stakes through the heart, silver, garlic, running water (even rain is a problem), and roasted soybeans. They also don't appear in film.

Oddly enough, they also canonically need to rest in coffins, although the fandom seems to forget this.

[nintendonut888]

Oddly enough, they also canonically need to rest in coffins, although the fandom seems to forget this.

From Curiosities of Lotus Asia chapter 4:

?Remilia, in the first place, why are you walking about in the middle of the day, even though you're a vampire? Shouldn't you be inside a coffin? ?
?I can still have a sunbath viewing. And by the way, coffins are for holding dead people. You seem to have a misunderstanding.?

???

[Tengukami]

Just to save some time, vampire mythology is all over the place about what they can and can't do, depending on where in the world the myth arises. Citing general vampire mythology won't help much, as there's literally no "traditional" vampire myth.

i.e. Donut has the right idea here - sticking to what we know specifically to the character in question. We've been around this block a few times now.

[NekoNekoRex]

From Curiosities of Lotus Asia chapter 4:

???

:objection!: Oriental Sacred Palace, Chapter 15 shows Remilia sleeps in a coffin on top of a bed.

[Cybeast710]

Just to save some time, vampire mythology is all over the place about what they can and can't do, depending on where in the world the myth arises. Citing general vampire mythology won't help much, as there's literally no consensus.

i.e. Donut has the right idea here. We've been around this block a few times now.

I'm sorry, but after seeing one Phoenix Wright opportunity go to waste, I can't waste another.

[Tiamat]

:objection!: Oriental Sacred Palace, Chapter 15 shows Remilia sleeps in a coffin on top of a bed.

It's a (hilarious) brick joke.  Remilia denies she sleeps in coffins on two different occasions (Imperishable Night and CoLA) presumably because it's demeaning, then years later it's finally revealed she sleeps in a coffin anyways.

.....but yea, she actually does sleep in a coffin. Goes to show you can't always trust what a Touhou character says.

[nintendonut888]

I'm still pretty sure she doesn't need to do so. But, hey, I didn't know that part.

[Sagus]

I'm still pretty sure she doesn't need to do so. But, hey, I didn't know that part.

If she didn't need to, and specifically denied to sleep in one in front of other people, why would she do it?

The coffin appears again in FS's 7th chap, too, and Remilia's actually shown inside it, so she clearly uses it.

[Hanzo K.]

Could also be a guilty pleasure for her. some folks like being in tight spaces like that after all.

[Drake]

[Fonzi]

They also don't appear in film.

Well, guess Aya can't really prove that the danmaku she took pictures of belongs to Remilia and Flandre respectively if they don't appear in her film.

[NekoNekoRex]

I don't actually know the proof behind that one, though. It's on Wikipedia, but I don't know why someone would add that if they didn't have proof of some kind.

You clearly can see her in Shoot the Bullet's photos, so maybe that one is bunk.

[an unmatched sock]

I feel like I completely derailed the topic...sorry, cybeast

 :ohdear:

[Rei Scarlette]

I feel like I completely derailed the topic...sorry, cybeast

 :ohdear:

No, if anything, that would be my fault. Your post was perfectly relevant to the whole shadows thing, however, mine started the discussion on whether or not all these things apply to Touhou Vampires in canon.

And yeah, sorry Cybeast. Whoops.

[Tengukami]

I'm sorry, but after seeing one Phoenix Wright opportunity go to waste, I can't waste another.

Only you forgot to mention what your objection actually is, or to what, so it looks like you wasted this one, too.

I don't actually know the proof behind that one, though. It's on Wikipedia, but

Just to save some time, vampire mythology is all over the place about what they can and can't do, depending on where in the world the myth arises. Citing general vampire mythology won't help much, as there's literally no "traditional" vampire myth.

And by that I mean no consensus - not about mirrors, or sunlight, or garlic, or running water, nor even drinking blood. The vampire is a myth found in many, many countries around the world and they all have hugely different properties.

I mention this to avoid the kind of tiresome derails about Vampire Do's and Don't's that any talk of Flandre and Remilia almost always derails into. Whatever you want to say about either character, citing the non-existent "traditional" vampire as per Wikipedia isn't going to help much.

[Zerviscos]

Now I'm sure most of you think I am referring to her EX Form. I am not. I have a chain of logic here that should be interesting.

1. Rumia's ability is manipulation of darkness.
2. Darkness is "a lack of light"
3. Shadows are also a lack of light.
4. Therefore, she could potentially manipulate shadows.
5. Shadows are caused by the caster physically blocking the light.
6. Therefore, IF she can manipulate the shadow, by definition she must also manipulate its caster.
7. Now what if she made the shadow smaller?
8. Manipulation of shadows lends itself to shadow travel rather easily...
9. As a person is tied to their shadow and a person is tied to their skillset, it is possible that Rumia could use that person's skillset through their shadow.
10. So to summarize, she could use anyone's powers except for those without shadows (i.e. PROBABLY Yukari) and manipulate the forms of those with shadows.
11. Good thing she's such a dimwit, huh?

There's various ways that manipulation of darkness is understood. Also, darkness might not really inter-relate to shadows specifically. Who knows, she might actually control a micro black hole(which in theory, it easily dissipate) that's only powerful enough to suck light in.

That chain is clipped at the second link when you consider that you may be misinterpreting Rumia's ability juuuuust a little bit. People love to make extrapolations of a character's abilities from the vague description, but I don't think their abilities come from the description, but the descriptions are an approximation of what they can do. "Manipulation of darkness" is relatively firmly stated in PMiSS to be the ability to make the area around her dark, and it's even stated that her grasp of it is so insignificant she can only go as far as to make it appear to be evening. I somehow doubt it extends beyond that if she cannot even have absolute control over what is canonically confirmed to be within her abilities.

Basically, people take things way too literal.

Just to save some time, vampire mythology is all over the place about what they can and can't do, depending on where in the world the myth arises. Citing general vampire mythology won't help much, as there's literally no "traditional" vampire myth.

i.e. Donut has the right idea here - sticking to what we know specifically to the character in question. We've been around this block a few times now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_folklore_by_region

Most famous Vampire lores should be from Eastern Europe.

[Sagus]

There is no mention, in any of the official Touhou works, about vampires not having reflections, or not appearing on cameras, or not casting shadows. Therefore, there is no reason at all to believe that these characteristics apply to Touhou vampires.

There's various ways that manipulation of darkness is understood. Also, darkness might not really inter-relate to shadows specifically. Who knows, she might actually control a micro black hole(which in theory, it easily dissipate) that's only powerful enough to suck light in.

Sucking light is exactly what shows just how powerful black holes are. They affect their surrondings so much that not even light, the fastest thing in the universe, can escape it. Also, a micro black hole is micrometers in size, and vanishes nearly instantly.

Her manipulation of darkness is simply creating a sphere of magical darkness around her. There really is no (canon) reason to believe she can do more than this.

[Tengukami]

Most famous Vampire lores should be from Eastern Europe.

A lot of them are, but in no way all of them, and there's even differences among Eastern Europeans (Serbs, for example, believe vampires begin "life" as sacks of skin filled with blood who have to somehow hunt and drink the blood of humans to gain humanoid form).

In other words, getting into a wiki-fight about what a "traditional" vampire does is completely pointless to discussions on Remilia and Flandre, due to the lack of consensus about vampires in general, and those two vampires in particular being pretty distinct.

Just stick to the Touhou canon, guys, trust me. It's not our first time having this discussion.

[Sagus]

Just stick to the Touhou canon, guys, trust me.

For the love of the gods, this. There's literally only one page of vampire lore in the whole canon. It's not that hard to follow it, guys.

[Zerviscos]

Sucking light is exactly what shows just how powerful black holes are. They affect their surrondings so much that not even light, the fastest thing in the universe, can escape it. Also, a micro black hole is micrometers in size, and vanishes nearly instantly.

Her manipulation of darkness is simply creating a sphere of magical darkness around her. There really is no (canon) reason to believe she can do more than this.

I may not be a Physicist, as Engineers are always to be thought as little brothers of this kind, but...Actually, as you said again, I am referring to >micro black holes<. You realize that micro black holes are so minute that it only sucks light(or anything within that boundary) within a certain area(specifically volume as it is a 3-dimensional boundary surrounding the vacuum).  That there are MANY speculations and theories that it is possible to create these micro black holes in Super Colliders(Like the most notabale place I've always dreamt working at; the Large Hadron Collider at Switzerland) that it >isn't enough< to destroy the fabric of space-time.

Should you realize, Mass = Force. Smaller mass = Smaller Force. Bigger Mass = Bigger Force. So no, micro black holes can't obliterate anyone bigger than it.

I made my point about black holes when it was first specified, but this time I said >micro black holes<
http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15367.msg1010538.html#msg1010538

I never finished what I meant about her controlling a micro black hole. As I said, and you said again, they are relatively small and tend to disappear quickly. That means most probably she can manipulate multiples of these around her.

>Disclaimer: No, this is just what I want to to speculate on her ability in some way it is, so please don't take it the wrong way that I'm speculating her power in regards to canon.

[Sagus]

I see. When you mentioned micro blackholes, I thought you meant that the whole bubble of darkness that Rumia makes was supposed to be one, which's why I mentioned their size.

Although I find this idea extremely farfatched, to be honest. But eh.

[game2011]

For the love of the gods, this. There's literally only one page of vampire lore in the whole canon. It's not that hard to follow it, guys.

The soy bean weakness is likely a Touhou invention, though.  I mentioned in the questions and answers thread before that it is most likely due to the word 鬼 found in "vampire" and "oni" that made them have the same weakness.  鬼 typically means "ghost" in Chinese, and vampires are literally called "blood-sucking ghosts" there.  However, since 鬼 in Japan means "oni", vampire there literally means "blood-sucking oni".  You get what I mean...