Suspected cheating in scoreboard submissions etc.

[ARF]

In the Phantasmagoria of Flower View score topic an issue with Random's replays was raised by a few players, and upon watching more replays with him it seems pretty likely to me that he is playing with slowdown. So I'm asking why the people responsible for the scoreboards haven't removed his entries from the opening post, if they haven't researched any of his replays, or just don't care about this matter? Also I've sent Random a PM regarding this, asking him to come talk about this (I sent this last month) and he hasn't replied, but that in itself isn't too strange since he's been away from the forums for quite some time now.

I'd think that it's better to voice any serious concerns about TAS'ing in submission in challenges and high scoring threads, since that would make a cheater much more likely to be caught and if you wrongly call out a legitimate player he will probably not be terribly offended by this (since it's more like a compliment in that case, I guess).

I'm not trying to induce some sort of paranoia, just that it seems this kind of topic isn't talked about much in the open, or not taken very seriously for the most part. I'd think that having accurate scoreboards would be more important than having quick updates.

[Zil]

I talked a bit with Sapz about it back when I brought it up in the PoFV thread, and his stance was more or less that the evidence wasn't solid enough, and that too much time had passed to do anything about it. However, we do have two new mods on the job, so maybe we can return to the subject for a bit and see what they think.

Personally I'm of the opinion that it's fair to remove them if enough people agree they look cheated.

And needless to say, I myself think he was a cheater.

[chum]

I looked at a couple of more replays and they're blatantly cheated.

[Chuckolator]

hmm, this would also invalidate his Double Spoiler ILs on SDA. noname would probably be concerned about that

[ARF]

hmm, this would also invalidate his Double Spoiler ILs on SDA. noname would probably be concerned about that

I've notified the SDA guys as well, however, I cannot tell from just watching them if his IL's were played with slowdown or anything.

[Drake]

If it's going to be out in the open, I also independently came to the conclusion that he was likely cheating when somebody asked me about some of his play a while back. The dodging itself was hard to positively tell anything about, but the playstyle itself was not indicative of someone who was experienced with the game nor with its kinds of patterns. It was more like a lot of consistently suspicious semi-reasonable things occurring alongside fairly ridiculous could-have-been-cheated playing. He also has a PCB no-focus Lunatic run that plays completely differently from his PoFV and looks perfectly fine throughout, yet his PoFV replays were surfacing around the same time.

Considering a lot of it was in PoFV the easiest method to find out is to just to have an online match or otherwise have live play such as streaming.

[chum]

He also has a PCB no-focus Lunatic run that plays completely differently from his PoFV and looks perfectly fine throughout

It does not. Watch it again and be more critical. That run is 100% cheated.

[Tengukami]

I have to agree that there needs to be some kind of mechanism for dealing with cheats. I honestly can't remember the last time someone was taken to task for it around here, though maybe I missed it, but it seems like a no-brainer to have some kind of MO in place.

[Shimatora]

I have to agree that there needs to be some kind of mechanism for dealing with cheats. I honestly can't remember the last time someone was taken to task for it around here, though maybe I missed it, but it seems like a no-brainer to have some kind of MO in place.

I would also agree. Although, the fact that this has been left unspoken about for some time makes it extremely hard to try and prove - while the person isn't active right now, if this had been brought up back when these were being posted then they could've been confronted then and there. But, because they are currently not around, trying to get them to livestream or play PvP is out of the question, so all we have to go on are it-looks-like's and it-could-be's. It's quite difficult to point out a submission is cheated too soon after it's posted in any case, no one is, and I doubt ever will, consistently check every new posted score.

I'll personally watch the replays tonight and say what I can see. However, "it looks like they might have cheated" isn't really grounds for removal of scores, unless it is blindingly obvious. And I mean frame-by-frame obvious.

Currently the only mechanism in place for dealing with cheats is removal of scores and not being allowed to submit again, but I'll discuss Random's replays with some others and see what they think too.

For future reference, if anyone thinks that someone may have cheated feel free to PM me either on here or on IRC, you can find me on #ijiyatsu on irc.ppirc.net or #pc-99 on irc.rizon.net.

EDIT: If anyone would like to highlight replays / stages where it is most obvious, please do so.

[Sapz]

The MO for dealing with cheaters has been sitting in the High Score Board rules thread for a while, guys. :V

I'd spoken with Zil about it in the past but wasn't aware this was such a common consensus about Random; I'm still a little hesitant but it might well be worth the removal anyway if everyone's agreed it's highly suspect and there hasn't been any kind of defence given. I'll spend some time looking at the replays tonight - as Shimatora says, if there are any particularly blatant replays you guys want to recommend, go nuts.

[Shimatora]

I'm still a little hesitant but it might well be worth the removal anyway if everyone's agreed it's highly suspect and there hasn't been any kind of defence given.

I'm going to agree with this - what I said about it-looks-like's is only really relevant if the person is here to defend it. Doubt amongst many members of the community for a player that is not currently active should be grounds enough for at least temporary removal.

[ARF]

I haven't watched the PoFV replays myself, but I guess they would be questionable from what the local experts are saying. Lunatic Alice solo run which seems to be full of awkward dodging, it almost looks like he's never seen the game before to me. But I guess it might be his first few attempts with Alice solo, or something like that. Apparently Seppo was skeptical towards his IN extra runs as well, presumably the runs he posted in the highscore thread. There's also his SA Lunatic ultra which has some pretty crazy dodges, but idk. His imperishable shooting graze which is features some pretty impressive play. I didn't think his UFO hard run or his Reimu solo hard run seemed that questionable though. Maybe this is heavily biased from not knowing the games that well, I can't tell.

http://replays.gensokyou.org/index.php?u=random&g=--&p=&t=--&d=--&ch=0

[nintendonut888]

Due to a history of being accused of cheating I've always been hesitant to judge a replay as legitimate or not, but I agree that that PCB lunatic no focus 1cc at least is almost surely a fake. Watching stage 4, it was believable up until the Prismriver fight, at which point it became hard to believe someone could move that precisely and confidently in a no focus run for that long, not to mention dodging precisely into a death field as they were exploding and living to tell the tale. Of course, this doesn't say anything on the DS or PoFV runs, but it certainly casts suspicion on them.

What I'm wondering, then, is that if this person is a faker, how did their largely publicized DS speedrun submissions pass inspection?

[Chuckolator]

Well, here are all the links to Random's replays that made it on SDA which would probably mean they're still unbeaten.

1-3
1-4
1-5
1-6
4-7
5-5
9-5
9-7
EX-6

[chum]

The nature of Double Spoiler means that It's very easy to conceal cheating in it, as opposed to a full run of one of the main games. I watched a couple of his DS ILs and couldn't see anything odd about them, it doesn't help that I am not very knowledgeable about DS though.

[Chuckolator]

Yeah, that is true. The nature of shooting game ILs means it's a valid and often required strategy to go for the stupidly risky stuff all the time and hope it works, so identifying actual cheaters through those kinds of replays isn't exactly feasible. If he cheated on everything else, though, that obviously points to these being cheated as well. Just purge everything.

[Zil]

For notable replays, I think the PoFV run is by far the most bizarre thing I've seen from him. Dunno if other people see it that way, but I can't view that as anything but tool assisted.

The PCB thing has some strangeness (Youmu's second spell, general abundance of deathbombs, etc.) but I don't think it's enough for me to say anything about it.

I haven't seen most of the IN stuff though.

[Tengukami]

The MO for dealing with cheaters has been sitting in the High Score Board rules thread for a while, guys. :V

Whoops!

What I'm wondering, then, is that if this person is a faker, how did their largely publicized DS speedrun submissions pass inspection?

I think this is the question. Good faith is generally assumed among people in this community, so I think it's understandable that some of these details wouldn't register. I guess it's a question of continuing to assume good faith, but keeping in mind that this is something that'll pop up now and then.

[ARF]

As Chum said it is hard to spot cheating unless it's made blatantly obvious in stuff like photo games and spell practice. His IL stuff seems plausible to me, but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't cheated.

Yeah, that is true. The nature of shooting game ILs means it's a valid and often required strategy to go for the stupidly risky stuff all the time and hope it works, so identifying actual cheaters through those kinds of replays isn't exactly feasible. If he cheated on everything else, though, that obviously points to these being cheated as well. Just purge everything.

Indeed, but it doesn't look like the SDA guys will agree with this at the moment, even if it seems likely. The easiest method for removing his runs might actually replace them with better runs. This way we don't have to worry so much if he played the IL's legitimately or not. I've already improved his 1-5, 9-5 and 9-7, and I seriously doubt that any of his times are actually humanly impossible to improve (4-7 and 5-5 feel like his strongest IL's to me, but that might be because surviving is harder in these scenes...)

I'll continue playing on and off with this goal in mind, if you want to try helping out with this feel free to drop replay links over at the SDA thread, just pls follow the established format. Also feel free to beat my (or anyone elses') IL times as well! pls join me, I'm so lonely ;__________;

[I have no name]

I watched a few of his ILs and didn't see anything strange about them...except EX-6, the movements look just a little bit too planned for making all the bullets move around.  I referenced a few of my replays of the strat for this one as well, and they were much more rigid when it came to the movement.  I could chalk it up to being a worse player/playstyle difference at the time of the ILs but looking back...

[Shimatora]

All of Random's scores have now been removed.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention - if anyone has any suspicion or worries in the future, feel free to make a post about it or contact Sapz, Karisa or myself personally via PMs or on IRC. (irc.ppirc.net #ijiyatsu)