Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 11F

[jaxter0987]

Misfortune Reversal pumps up all her debuffs every turn so you can have them maxed easily instead of this being difficult with them constantly decaying. I'd also recommend using... oh wait, you don't have pharmacologist yet (I think?), nevermind. But yeah Parsee can passively boost DRK damage. Parsee also helps by being nigh-immune to debuffing. (This strategy gets easier as you manage to keep your party from being horribly crippled on use)

I don't think A Curse Goes Both Ways applies here, though.

No, Role of Nagashi Bina keeps her debuffs at max by debuffing her each turn she gets. Misfortune Reversal turns her debuffs into buffs while still being "debuffed" so her other abilities can still be relevant. A Curse Goes Both Ways might apply here because I think debuffs might technically count as an ailment.

In any case, I really want to finish my synergy run so I can finally try characters I haven't tried before in a third play through. Like Hina and Parsee for example.

[Serela]

Oh oops, I'm stupid then. But considering -40% debuffs, Role of Nagashi-bina would help too.

But yeah... misfortune reversal would explain at lot >_> The damage would like, quadruple. (instead of 50% magic you'd have 200%)

Also I'm preeeetty sure ailments are just the actual status effects. Debuffs are treated separately. Toxicologist's Conversion is for ailments and Hexer's Conversion is for debuffs, for example. along with their strengthening passives.

[ditt93]

But yeah... misfortune reversal would explain at lot >_> The damage would like, quadruple. (instead of 50% magic you'd have 200%)

Pretty sure it's 150% since you just get 2 times the debuff value as buff but the debuff is still there...

[Jq1790]

Playing the first Labyrinth, beaten all bosses on all floors(with two obvious, postgame exceptions) up to and including 14F, except Orin.  I'm rather pleased with how things are going in this run compared to when I first played it long, long ago.  (Probably helps that I'm only focusing on like 15 characters instead of thinking of all of em like before.)

Current main exploration team is:

Reimu(MND -> MAG)
Marisa(MAG)
Sakuya(ATK)
Patchy(MAG)
Youmu(ATK)
Chen(ATK)
Tenshi(DEF/MND even split, with equipment deciding which is higher)
Ran(SP -> MAG)
Yuugi(ATK)
Nitori(ATK)
Reisen(MAG)
Rumia(MAG, barely ends up used though in dungeons.  Might swap out and just bring in for some magic/MYS weak bosses.)

Sometimes for exploration I bring Komachi(ATK) along(also occasionally bosses when Avici's useful), as well, though her usefulness for dungeon crawling is limited when enemies reisst DTH like on 14F where the only things I'd wanna have it work on are immune.

Sometimes I bring in for bosses:
Wriggle(HP, occasionally Affinities)
Suika(ATK)
Minoriko(MND)
Iku(MND)

Note the lack of everyone's favorite gatekeeper.  I haven't really missed her that much since I got to like 10F or so, and the celestial works as a great sponge for random encounter attacks.  Of course, her HP is somewhat an issue, but it's not TERRIBLE due to my investing a little bit in everyone's HP totals.  (Like Lv. 20 for all the people I use commonly, planning to go for 25 or 30 soon after I get their defensive stat(s) to 40 and offensive to 35.)

Does this setup look like it'll be good enough for continued use, or am I setting myself up for trouble somehow?

[MysTeariousYukari]

Your setup and spread of Level Bonuses looks pretty solid to me If you aren't having any major issues by 14F, things will mostly stay that way.

The thing with Tenshi, is that she will need heavier and heavier Viole investment in her HP, as some upcoming bosses have stuff like Rasetsu Fist, which ignores all your DEF and MND and hit for... 3000? 5000? something like that. Rasetsu Fist is thus the big thing that can give you major issues as you get further in.

[MewMewHeart]

Your setup and spread of Level Bonuses looks pretty solid to me If you aren't having any major issues by 14F, things will mostly stay that way.

The thing with Tenshi, is that she will need heavier and heavier Viole investment in her HP, as some upcoming bosses have stuff like Rasetsu Fist, which ignores all your DEF and MND and hit for... 3000? 5000? something like that. Rasetsu Fist is thus the big thing that can give you major issues as you get further in.

You forgot Thousand Hand Cannon is also a thing too.

[MysTeariousYukari]

Did not forget actually I said "Stuff like Rasetsu Fist."

But yeah, Thousand Hand Cannon, Rasetsu Fist, and some other moves completely ignore DEF/MND, some like Scourge *might* factor in defenses, I honestly forget, but hit so bloody hard that even Tenshi won't be able to tank them for a long time.

[DarthNoob]

After grinding for twelve levels, I finally decided to fight the 20F final boss.

Spoiler:

Flandre proceeds to three-shot the boss. (Team: Yukari Iku Flandre Aya, although could have managed without Aya if Yukari had more than 60 MP)

:wat:

[MysTeariousYukari]

After grinding for twelve levels, I finally decided to fight the 20F final boss.

Spoiler:

Flandre proceeds to three-shot the boss. (Team: Yukari Iku Flandre Aya, although could have managed without Aya if Yukari had more than 60 MP)

:wat:

Grats And yeah, that sort of result sounds a bit normal actually.

Spoiler:

That is part of why he was buffed in one of the updates, characters like Flan just wrecked him completely... now they just mostly wreck him XD Also, Flan, IIRC, has the highest ATK in the game, Starbow Break is Dark element, and Mr. Final Boss is weak to Dark.

[Nesala]

I've been playing LoT2 recently, and among the other things that has me puzzled is how skill points are gained.  The main reason I ask is because I'm wondering if it's possible to grind skill points in LoT2. 

I'm also aware that resetting a character allows for their skill points to be reallocated, but doesn't that use a Tome of Reincarnation?

[Validon98]

You gain a skill point every time you level and every time you use a Training Manual on a character. Thus, you can only "grind" skillpoints through leveling.
Skill points don't need a Tome of Reincarnation to reset. That's only to reset the stat levels gained through Patchouli's Library, which are earned by spending money.

[jaxter0987]

~Your Set-up~

Honestly, the main issue I see with your team is probably the lack of Defence/ Mind piercing attacks. If I recall, Patchy's Silent Selene is the best thing you have for a piercing attack in that set-up. Another possible issue is that you have a lot more physical attackers than magical attackers. Both Reimu and Ran are better suited just being a beefy support and Reimu's attacks are composite anyway which is generally a bad thing.

You have Patchy, Marisa, and Reisen for magical attackers
(I don't even count Rumia as Marisa is just so much better if you're looking for magical MYS damage. I guess the heal is nice but you have Minoriko and Reimu for that. Ran )

You have Youmu, Chen, Yuugi, Nitori, and Suika for physical attackers
(Sakuya falls off pretty hard. She basically became a beefy party speed booster for me, which is admittedly also a bad choice considering how fast everything is in the Plus Disc floors. I just kept her because I didn't want to drop someone I've been using all game. Took me a lot of time to finally get rid of Wriggle [Again Plus Disc floors were my reasoning])

Patchy and Marisa together covers all the elements but SPI magically while you have a decent amount of FIR, NAT and WND attacks on the physical side. Your lack of CLD, and MYS physical attacks as well as a lack of SPI attacks in general are going to have to be covered by Silent Selene and Nitori's Megawatt Gun but that shouldn't be an issue since Non Elemental attacks become more and more helpful the further you progress.

EDIT:
I guess Ran could cover SPI magically but again, I feel she's better suited as a support.
Youmu has Flashing Cherry Blossoms which pierces as much as Silent Selene does except it costs a lot more comparatively and isn't Non Elemental like Silent Selene is.
I also forgot that Nitori's Megawatt Gun is stupid powerful, especially if you're playing the Special Disc version 3.01.
I'm also going to join in on the whole, "Enemies have Defence / Mind ignoring attacks so Tenshi is 'bad' " opinion that was already mentioned.

[Gesh86]

Has anyone ever made a comic about Labyrinth of Touhou 1 or 2? Whatever is the case, I've made one yesterday:

[monhan]

Has anyone ever made a comic about Labyrinth of Touhou 1 or 2? Whatever is the case, I've made one yesterday:

Anything for Byakuren "LOL I can solo this game"?

[Serela]

Both Reimu and Ran are better suited just being a beefy support

No get out Ran spamming her composite attack is absolutely glorious. Who cares about buffing the back's ATK/MAG when Iku gets them to max in an instant and has the sky-high mnd needed to stay out already?

I still think support!Ran is a waste of time until she has the SP to just sit in a slot and use her DEF/MND slot constantly for the entire duration of a fight. (This keeps your buffs constantly at a significantly higher number then they'd normally be- having 20~40% more def/mnd at all times makes a pretty great difference in Plus Disk. It has to be Ran because of delay numbers, buffing the back at the same time is only an added convenience.)

Anyway, apart from only having Tenshi as a tank (she either trivializes a boss or falls over, getting her to survive def-ignoring attacks and later even just nukes is a pain, and it will only get harder and harder to do it as time goes on- you'll start having problems sooner or later)  and MAG-Reimu plus a assumably offensive Sakuya (both of which aren't very good ideas) the party looks fine. It's very hard to use Rumia in the later parts of the maingame, although if you put some effort into it, she can be helpful for the highly tanky enemies (Probably better off just using single-target boss killer nukes on them though). Rumia will be great in post-game as a backup healer though (those extra 100 levels getting to Plus Disk do a wonder in HP/MAG scaling), and Moonlight Ray will become a little better looking offensively.

I also go :V whenever someone brings up a lack of CLD attacks because the only character in the game with one that isn't shit is Kanako, and Kanako herself is shit. (Her HP is piss-poor and her defenses are only okay-ish which does NOT offset it, so she's -not- all that tanky and her damage is highly meh)

[jaxter0987]

No get out Ran spamming her composite attack is absolutely glorious. Who cares about buffing the back's ATK/MAG when Iku gets them to max in an instant and has the sky-high mnd needed to stay out already?

I also go :V whenever someone brings up a lack of CLD attacks because the only character in the game with one that isn't shit is Kanako, and Kanako herself is shit. (Her HP is piss-poor and her defenses are only okay-ish which does NOT offset it, so she's -not- all that tanky and her damage is highly meh)

I'm still going with the "Composite attacks  < Regular attacks" mindset. I'll concede in that her composite attack certainly looks very impressive on paper but I'm inclined to think that its not as impressive in practice. I'd mostly be raising just her magic so her other two spells do decent damage anyway so the ATK component of the damage formula would become less and less useful.

Regarding CLD attacks: Yes LoT1 clearly has a lack of "good" CLD attacks and I forgot about that when writing the post. Still, I'm pretty sure my mention of Non Elemental attacks becoming more and more useful makes up for this blunder.

But the whole "Kanako is shit" thing? Wut? A mage with a B, A, A, B growth rates in HP, DEF, MAG, and MND respectively is shit? The only issue I see with Kanako's stats is her high level up difficulty (which is a non issue in a game where you grind so much) and her SP recovery (which could potentially be an easy fix with equipment). Low TP is easily fixed while low-ish speed is understandable for a mage (With Marisa obviously being one exception).

[Starxsword]

Unfortunately, because of her levelling difficulty, her stats may look good on paper, but not very much in practice. In general, a rule of thumb in Labyrinth 1. High stat / slow levelling characters get a bigger bang for their buck when it comes to training skill levels. Low stat / fast levelling characters, well, from level ups. So characters like Yukari benefit more than characters like Reimu when it comes to training.
For reference, Kanako is slightly tankier than Maribel or Rumia.

[Serela]

I've used Kanako, she is not very good. High leveling rates does indeed make those good growth rates kinda meh in practice. Her HP is garbage tier (in any given team of characters she'd probably have near the lowest amount unless you have, say, Patchouli) and her def/mnd aren't bad, but just a tad too low to actually cross the line into being considered durable- especially with that awful HP handicapping her. There's much better bulky damage dealers, like Alice, who should have somewhat superior def and damage with vastly better MND/HP.

And Kanako actually still has to worry about running out of SP. Because plus-disk characters have to have horribly bloated SP costs, for whatever reason. It makes sense on Shikieiki and Renko, but on Mari/Utsu/Kanako/Yuuka... :/

I'd come up with better references in terms of what her stats are -actually- like, but I'm too rusty to remember good comparison rates for levelup rates on growth numbers.

I've also used offensive Ran, and her composite is indeed a glorious attack to behold. "Composite < Regular" is a flawed mindset, to be bluntly honest! It is true that more enemies will resist them because a high DEF -or- high MND enemy disables it, but they're perfectly fine on anything else. They might also look less impressive because in random battles, they'll only do standard trash clearing damage, but it's because they go through more defenses- as soon as you bring out Iku to buff them up in a boss the damage soars upwards moreso then a normal attack would.

[Jq1790]

Thanks for all the input!  Lemme try to respond to everything in order...
-I've definitely noticed the lack of piercing damage when it's come time to fight stuff like Blackenmels/Helbelmares...  Oddly enough, Ran can pierce their defenses a little with her laser, though not for much damage yet.  Other than that I've had to resort to nukes like the Megawatt Kill Everything Gun (or Silent Selene as mentioned).  (Then again, by now since I'm just breaking into 16F enemies are surviving more turns anyway, though that might just be me not spending enough time on the floor below.)

-I...hadn't even really paid much attention to how little I've got in the way of magic, especially with two of the three being MYS primarily(Though Reisen's Discarder's not exactly worthless, if I needed a FIR single target magic attack I'm probably better off with Alice and Return Inanimateness since it's almost nuke-level IIRC...)  I'm also considering using Yuyuko, but it'll probably be a while before she's got the SP to attack often enough and I don't recall if she's got the MAG(Especially if I was going for a MND build originally) to deal the damage I'd need for when her high DTH rates aren't an option/fail.

-Continuing from above, yeah, I've now noticed the severe slant towards physical damage.  For SPI physicals, I do have ATK-Komachi, so there's that.  (Plus Narrow Confines and Ferriage provide multitarget DTH chance for randoms which is nice.)  Should I bring Suwako along for randoms more for Iron Rings, to get a MYS attack in as well?  (I've got Youmu able to fire off a couple Cherry Blossom attacks now without needing to stop, so I don't know if I'd need Croaking Frog as much)

-I'm noticing Sakuya's diminishing returns already, and really have been since like 13F.  I wanted to try to use her, to prove to myself she could be viable, but her ATK just isn't high enough to make her attacks worth using, though I have liked Lunar Clock quite a bit.  Only a matter of time before she gets axed, I feel.

-Yeah, the Linear Gun is insane.  It's typically my strongest attack on offer unless an enemy has much higher DEF than MND.  Nitori's also not all that slow, AND her nuke isn't mega costly either, especially for its outrageous power.  I wouldn't consider it unfair if they'd made its SP cost DOUBLE, to be honest, though she then wouldn't be nearly as useful earlier on.  Speaking of Nitori, her Waterfall attack is actually quite nice for not-high-DEF enemies.  Currently seeing like 15-20k on most things without high DEF stats.

-I use Ran for her magic in randoms, and for her buffs usually in bosses.  She's got the SP to fire off 3, almost 4 of her buff spells without rest now.

-Being on 15/16F, I've already seen Thousand Hand Kannon and Rasetsu Fist(The latter being the only move Hill Gigas got to use (Poor Reimu, getting punched to death instantly) before I just mowed it down with PAR, but that's besides the point.).  Yeah, Tenshi can't do jack about those, I'm well aware.  Her HP's not BAD right now, just not good enough to stand up to those.  Might need to remember to switch in the shinigami when I know an enemy can use those sorts of things.

-Biggest reason I won't worry about Kanako is she's WAY far into the future and thus not of my concern yet.

-I've heard great things of Soaring En No Ozuno or whatever, and I intend to see if it's as great as people say eventually, though as of current I've yet to see it as impressive, I'll guess it's like Moonlight Ray/Demarcation in that it gets better and better scaling.

Anyway, thanks all again for the input!

[Gesh86]

Anything for Byakuren "LOL I can solo this game"?

Well...I can't really think about anything beyond her just saying that and I'm not sure that alone warrants a comic.  :V
I never much explored her OP-ness myself. She did do her job well for me, but she was far from going without help. Maybe because in a "vanilla"-playthrough, you just don't give her the neccessary mass of parameters? I wonder who else can solo the game. I know Hina can solo a few bosses. Maybe Komachi, too?

[Serela]

-I've heard great things of Soaring En No Ozuno or whatever, and I intend to see if it's as great as people say eventually, though as of current I've yet to see it as impressive, I'll guess it's like Moonlight Ray/Demarcation in that it gets better and better scaling.

There's nothing special, you just have to make sure Ran's been buffed by Iku first. Keep in mind it has low delay and that Ran can take a hit, so it's not as much how much damage you get per hit as much as how many hits you can get in at the same time.

And yeah, Megawatt Gun was buffed in 3.00 and they kinda overdid it :V

Bringing in Suwako for randoms is fine. Just throw some minor SKP investment into her Magic and use those. Or, well, for nuking the tanky enemies with her physical attacks instead.

Since characters get more EXP if they're in your party compared to being left in gensokyo, people generally use the same characters for exploration as they do for bosses. It's not a big deal though, that's just a matter of playstyle- it's only 20% less exp for being in Gensokyo. Then again "only 20%" might be an odd statement >_>

I wouldn't worry that much about your number of magical and physical attackers being balanced or not. It's not a big deal, as long as you have a few good characters for each.

I wouldn't really recommend Yuyuko until later. Only being able to use SPI can be annoying, and she's so slow (down there with Patchouli) that the DTH effects aren't as delicious as one might hope for. Saigyouji Flawless Nirvana is a great nuke and she has nice MND even in a full mag build, but you can't spam Nirvana for a long time. She's wonderful after you can, as long as your targets don't resist spi >_> Before you have the SP to spam nirvana her damage is pretty meh, even without considering that it's limited to one element and how slow it is.

[jaxter0987]

I've also used offensive Ran, and her composite is indeed a glorious attack to behold. "Composite < Regular" is a flawed mindset, to be bluntly honest! It is true that more enemies will resist them because a high DEF -or- high MND enemy disables it, but they're perfectly fine on anything else. They might also look less impressive because in random battles, they'll only do standard trash clearing damage, but it's because they go through more defenses- as soon as you bring out Iku to buff them up in a boss the damage soars upwards moreso then a normal attack would.

Isn't that exactly why they're subpar? I can't say with absolute certainty, but I'm pretty sure most bosses are either high DEF or high MND and its rare to see a boss with a balance between the two to argue that Composites will do more damage in general. There's also the issue of raising two stats for damage rather than one:

I'd mostly be raising just her magic so her other two spells do decent damage anyway so the ATK component of the damage formula would become less and less useful.

If you're going to argue that I should be raising ATK as well, I'll just point out that since you're raising two stats, you're spending twice as much Skill points as you would on a regular attacker to make the second component still relevant.

Picture of some members of my current team
Notice the difference in investment on defenses. Everyone else except Sanae is geared for offense.

If you guys want me to stop talking about this at any point, please say so. I don't want to cause any issues just because of a difference of opinion.

Edit: In case anyone's wondering, most of the Character images were taken from Touhou Pocket Wars EVO art.

[Starxsword]

I'm also considering using Yuyuko, but it'll probably be a while before she's got the SP to attack often enough and I don't recall if she's got the MAG(Especially if I was going for a MND build originally) to deal the damage I'd need for when her high DTH rates aren't an option/fail.

If you plan to use Yuyuko, I suggest all magic, all the way. Her magic growth is good but hampered by levelling speed, so it is only mediocre. That crazy 9x multiplier needs all the help it can get.

Should I bring Suwako along for randoms more for Iron Rings, to get a MYS attack in as well?  (I've got Youmu able to fire off a couple Cherry Blossom attacks now without needing to stop, so I don't know if I'd need Croaking Frog as much)

Just remember that Suwako is like the flimsiest of flimsy characters, so be careful when using her. Even flimsy characters like Patchouli, Kaguya, or Marisa are at least able to take magic hits. Suwako can't take anything. HP, DEF, MIND and levelling speed do not do her any favors. But her attack is amazing, one of the highest, next to Nitori.

-I've heard great things of Soaring En No Ozuno or whatever, and I intend to see if it's as great as people say eventually, though as of current I've yet to see it as impressive, I'll guess it's like Moonlight Ray/Demarcation in that it gets better and better scaling.

It good though, because of the delay. You are able to use it often and repeatedly, but you will need a pure magic build for that. Its damage gets really nerfed if you don't go pure magic, pretty much like all composite attacks.

[RegalStar]

Can someone post me a screenshot of Asura Blade's item description? My file somehow has a line from totally different place stuck in there and I have no idea what the original description is supposed to be.

EDIT: Oh, and the washboard set's description too.

[Kuilfrayt]

Can someone post me a screenshot of Asura Blade's item description? My file somehow has a line from totally different place stuck in there and I have no idea what the original description is supposed to be.

EDIT: Oh, and the washboard set's description too.

Found the lines in the untranslated text dump. From 1.151.

Asura Blade
007F8A80: 攻撃は竜に任せ、主人公は大人しくアイテムを連発する補助役をやっていたほうが無難。
007F8AE8: が、元々の能力が微妙である主人公が装備しても望むほどの攻撃性能にはならない。
007F8B48: 使用による武器破損なし、最強の攻撃力、1～3回攻撃効果を誇る真に最強の武器。
007F8BA4: アスラのつるぎ

Washboard Set
007F80A8: ゲーム序盤に乱数調整で大量に集めるとヌルゲーと化す。
007F80E8: クリア後でも暫く通用する超強力装備へと変貌する最強の洗面器。
007F8134: クズ装備と侮るなかれ、５つセットで装備すると全能力+50という
007F817C: 洗面器セット

[Serela]

Isn't that exactly why they're subpar? I can't say with absolute certainty, but I'm pretty sure most bosses are either high DEF or high MND and its rare to see a boss with a balance between the two to argue that Composites will do more damage in general.
-----------------------
There's also the issue of raising two stats for damage rather than one:If you're going to argue that I should be raising ATK as well, I'll just point out that since you're raising two stats, you're spending twice as much Skill points as you would on a regular attacker to make the second component still relevant.

They aren't higher enough def or mnd to -really- matter in most cases. Besides, it's not "composites are better" either. They're not better or worse just for being composite, is what I'm saying. The point is the rest of the attack- Soaring En No Ozuno has good damage but with a great delay on it, and it's on a fairly durable character.

Raising two stats isn't really an issue. You pay less attention to Ran's attack because it's lower, hence the boost from skill levels isn't as large. And boosting two offense stats instead of one shouldn't even be noticeable in a party of 12 characters, anyway.

[DarkFlash]

I've been having the same problem Hard-To-Destroy-Reptile had with the debug assertion error, but every time I try to get rid of read-only mode, read-only mode is put back on after I exit out of the properties window.
I'm running Windows 7 and I have version 1.151 of the game, so could those be causing any problems?

Edit: Okay, I just learned that there is no way to remove the read-only property from a folder in Windows 7. Is there another way to fix it, or would I have to downgrade Windows to play the game?

[Gesh86]

Edit: Okay, I just learned that there is no way to remove the read-only property from a folder in Windows 7. Is there another way to fix it, or would I have to downgrade Windows to play the game?

I play the game on Windows 7 and never encountered any kind of problem like that. If there's a specific folder that has this read-only property to it, maybe you can just copy all the game files to somewhere else, maybe create a new folder alltogether if necessary. The way I remember LoT2, it didn't have an installer and was one of those "copy the files of the CD onto your harddrive"-games. Moving around files shouldn't damage anything.

[Leerius]

https://db.tt/AYG1ruyy
Unnecessary overheated Super Scope 3D lol.
Lv100 Nitori/stats.

... Just remembered I forgot to debuff the FOE orz.
Too lazy for another shot.


PS : gave up on Hina for "normal playthrough" because my favorite/most used class is enchanter but Misfortune Reversal effectively stacks with debuffs.

[Milkyway64]

I have just finished LoT2, enjoyed it quite a bit. I'm aware that not all of the content is in the game, but is there ANYTHING to do after the final boss right now? I know that 16th floor FOE is a thing,  but is it time to put this down until next patch or no?