Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer

[Sagus]

A: Yes, generally youkai don't die from age; they only fade from existence when people no longer believe in them. In Symposium of Post-Mysticism, it is said that in the modern world, new youkai are still being born, because the world is still full of things unknown and uncomprehensible to humans (like "Murphy's law", or losing the TV remote control), but they will immediately disappear, because modern people are unable to affirm their belief in them, and shape them into legends that can be passed down.

You know, in SoPM, in that same chapter, Byakuren muses on how Gensokyo's youkai have actually become free from human's imagination and managed to create their own characteristics (the old ones, anyway, who already had legends about them and then were forgotten by the outside). Is their existence solid enough for them to go live on the outside world again, if they want? I don't remember if it's mentioned in the text and the wiki isn't loading for me since yesterday for some reason (btw extra question, is anyone else having difficulties acessing the wiki?)

[Clarste]

You know, in SoPM, in that same chapter, Byakuren muses on how Gensokyo's youkai have actually become free from human's imagination and managed to create their own characteristics (the old ones, anyway, who already had legends about them and then were forgotten by the outside). Is their existence solid enough for them to go live on the outside world again, if they want? I don't remember if it's mentioned in the text and the wiki isn't loading for me since yesterday for some reason (btw extra question, is anyone else having difficulties acessing the wiki?)

The Barrier itself is the thing that "freed them from the spell of human imagination" so it's doubtful that they'd still be free if they left it. Although it's certainly not impossible for them to live out there, since Sado is apparently home to a large population of Tanuki. Maybe Tanuki are special in some way though, since they achieve their "purpose" by blending in with humanity.

And the wiki works fine for me right now.

[Imosa]

1) What are the duties of Hakurei Reimu exactly?

That's partially right. I thought I once heard that this also extends to Youkai. In general, she just solves problems. I'm not sure if she is obligated to do this though. I assume she just wants to.

2) Why do you think youkai in Gensokyo can't kill in a sense the Hakurei shrine maiden (or if you prefer don't dare to kill one)?

Youkai can't (or rather, don't) kill because of the spell card system, if that's what you're asking. The spell card system doesn't seem to be as simple as something you agree to adhere by.

[cuc]

Hakurei shrine maidens are connected to Great Boundary, so if she dies, Gensokyo stops existing. There is no official information whether it would become a part of the real world or just disappear in that case.

This is not confirmed in canon, and I personally don't think that's true.

Let me see... I wrote this one year ago.

"In a sense, the Hakurei shrine maiden is the only government of Gensokyo. Not in the sense of 'policy maker', but in the sense of possessing legitimacy, so everyone actually listens to what she says. If any real problems are to happen, humans will listen to her. Supressing youkai with youkai is politically problematic, so the youkai sages would not make such a bad choice unless absolutely necessary. They needs the Hakurei shrine maiden to defeat the troublemakers, too."

Basically, the way the shrine maiden can maintain the peace of Gensokyo is, humans know she can defeat any trouble making youkai, and for the smarter youkai who are actually concerned with the greater good of Gensokyo, it's also much better to let the human shrine maiden do it, rather than creating precedents for "youkai suppressing youkai". Since the youkai worship power, after being defeated, they will change their attitude to respecting the shrine maiden.

One thing has changed about my thinking since then, though: now I believe more likely than not, "youkai sages" are a lie propagated by Yukari.

[Drake]

It's hard to believe there are many, if any, "youkai sages" given how much of Gensokyo has been fleshed out already. I find it silly that we would not get a glimpse of who they would be, or even just the results of their actions or decisions. It's the only context the term is referenced, so yeah, I'm on that train too.

[TrueShadow]

Or maybe the youkai "sages" consist of Yukari alone :V

[Starxsword]

1) What are the duties of Hakurei Reimu exactly?
Does she perverse a state of balance in Gensokyo and/or to protect human or what?

Solve incidents and do violence/exterminate to youkai.

3) Do you think youkai in general (mainly Ghost) need to eat in order to survive?

Youkai, not sure. Ghosts, probably not. It probably depends on the type of youkai.

4) What do you think Reimu strongest attack Musou Tensei do exactly? (I'm not talking in spell card battle)

Its just an attack with her throwing lots of ofudas and stuff. I imagine it isn't too different from her other attacks, except, stronger and makes it extremely difficult to hurt her.

The Barrier itself is the thing that "freed them from the spell of human imagination" so it's doubtful that they'd still be free if they left it. Although it's certainly not impossible for them to live out there, since Sado is apparently home to a large population of Tanuki. Maybe Tanuki are special in some way though, since they achieve their "purpose" by blending in with humanity.

I don't think it was talking about the Barrier that was doing it. I think it is meant to be the youkai of Gensokyo that was free from that.

@Spell Card Rules:
Spell card system is a set of rules both parties agreed to adhere to. They do not necessarily have to follow it. Youkai can indeed kill Reimu if they decided not to adhere to it.

@Hakurei Barrier: If Reimu were to be defeated, the barrier would likely be in trouble, if not disappear. Here is the source, from Perfect Momento in Strict Sense, Reimu's profile:

The Hakurei shrine maidens control the Great Hakurei Boundary and protect Gensokyo.
If the Great Boundary were destroyed, either from inside or out, Gensokyo would likely not fare well.
Gensokyo relies on the Hakurei Shrine and its shrine maidens to continue to exist as it does today.
As a result, no youkai oppose them.

@Youkai sages: I don't think there are that many youkai sages, but I believe there are more than one. There are several people I can think of that can fall into the category of youkai sages. Tewi, Aya, Yuuka, and depending on your view, Keine.

[Imosa]

Aya

Just real quick on this one. Aya may be powerful but only by virtue of being a Crow Tengu, Hatate is also a Crow Tengu so shouldn't she be fit as well? What about the other crow Tengu that probably exist? Why not just the Tengu chief?

[Starxsword]

Well, we don't know what the chief looks like. But yes, it is possible. Aya and not Hatate, because I feel like Hatate isn't old enough. Same deal with how Momiji is not old enough. Aya is at least 1000 years old, so she can fit the bill.

[Clarste]

I think you're defining "sage" too loosely if you only require them to be 1000 years old. I think at the very least they'd need to be a leader of sorts. Aya follows orders from her superior, so it doesn't make much sense to me to think of her as a sage. Tenma almost certainly would be, and maybe Tewi, but I think the main point is that unlike what Yukari seems to want people to think there is no grand youkai conspiracy that all the youkai elders are in on. There are no "youkai sages" who collectively make decisions concerning all of Gensokyo.

[Sagus]

What do you mean, "Yukari wants to think"? She was involved in the creation of the barrier, the pact between underground and aboveground youkai, the spellcard rules, and the vampire contract. These are all things said to have involved "youkai sages", so she knows if they exist or not. Considering that most references to sages comes from PmISS, in which Yukari was involved...

'Sides, like cuc said, youkai workship power. If a youkai wants to become a leader, it just needs to show enough of it. Remember that Yukari herself tried to invade the Moon, which means that, at least once, she managed to unite a number of youkai under a single cause.

[Clarste]

I said "wants people to think", ie: supporting cuc's claim that she's lying about them. She has things she wants, things she does, people she leads or whatever, but she speaks as if she's backed by a group that may not actually exist.

Well, personally I also think she's delusional, but I didn't mention that in the earlier post or in this thread, as far as I know.

[Sagus]

...sorry, I fail at reading comprehension :V

But I'd like to know why you think that, anyway.

[Clarste]

But I'd like to know why you think that, anyway.

Because she seems like the type to favor the "interesting" explanation over the "true" explanation. She also says some weird things like how she can't remember anything over 60 years ago because at that point it becomes "history" (and in this series history is very deliberately used in a "what's written down" sense rather than a "what actually happened" sense). In general, she thinks weird. Alien. Youkai. That doesn't mean she stupid, far from it, but she's also not what I'd call rational either. Irrational logic. I suppose that's the best way to put it. The other side of lacking common sense.

[Sagus]

Ahn, I see. Well, she's explicitly said to be a odd even by youkai standards so that makes sense :V

[Tiamat]

Is "Sages" supposed to even be plural? I recall someone saying that the Japanese language sometimes uses the same word for Plural and Singular when this question arose about Vampire and Vampires in the vampire incident. My memory could be off.

If it's not supposed to be plural, then there's really no questions involved since that would mean that it's basically just referring to Yukari whenever it comes up (as Yukari has been referred to as the sage of youkai in Memorizable Gensokyo, and also confirmed to either be one, or THE one if it's not plural, in Subteranean Animism)

If it is supposed to be plural, one of my favorite pet theories is that the other sages included Tewi, Tenma, and maybe Yuuka, but most of them simply didn't care about those particular details and just said "Whatever." whenever Yukari had an idea. That's just one pet theory out of numerable possibilities I can think of though. (note that "favorite" does not mean "theory I think is most likely" in this case)

As for the spell card rules, it's implied (or outright stated. I forget which at the moment) they're under a devil's contract and thus can't be broken. I'm not sure how a contract can apply to an entire area rather than an individual, but it's confirmed (at least under some interpretations of the following statement) that this is possible since the "humans from the village are not for eating under the contract".

[Imosa]

As for the spell card rules, it's implied (or outright stated. I forget which at the moment) they're under a devil's contract and thus can't be broken. I'm not sure how a contract can apply to an entire area rather than an individual, but it's confirmed (at least under some interpretations of the following statement) that this is possible since the "humans from the village are not for eating under the contract".

Where does that statement come from.

[Biakmon]

IS it the correct place to ask for "touhou song title" or do I have to go to another section of the site?  :wat:

Also does anyone know why Oni (e.g Suika & Yuugi) have chains along there arm and feet? (or if you prefer what could be the significant of those chains)

[Tiamat]

Where does that statement come from.

Cage in Lunatic Runagate

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate/Fifth_Chapter

"Humans from the town are generally not for their eating under the contract. "


...annoyingly perhaps the only other time besides Perfect Memento where the contract is actually brought up, if I recall correctly (well, better than it not being brought up anywhere else at all, I suppose).

[Clarste]

IS it the correct place to ask for "touhou song title" or do I have to go to another section of the site?  :wat:

Also does anyone know why Oni (e.g Suika & Yuugi) have chains along there arm and feet? (or if you prefer what could be the significant of those chains)

I don't believe there's any particular canon significance to the chains, but it certainly seems to mark oni, since Kasen also has one on her good arm. The obvious implication to me is that they were all chained up at some point and broke free by tearing the chains, but for all I know it could just be considered fashionable among oni.

[Sungho]

The word that was translated to 'contract' in the Fifth Chapter in Cage of Lunatic is 約束.
It isn't the same word as used in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense.

Not very likely, but it might be two different things.

[Drake]

It's more like "promised", but I don't think there's any reason to think it's anything different just because it doesn't use exactly the same language.

Is "Sages" supposed to even be plural?

It says 地上の賢者達 in Subterranean Animism and 妖怪の賢者達 in PMiSS' Dragon article; 達 being an explicit pluralizing suffix. It's just 妖怪の賢者 in Akyuu's monologue, and somewhere else, but Akyuu doesn't say anything that would be isolated to a single person. The fact that they don't actually talk about a specific entity in the first place (or saying something like "that sage", which ZUN likes to do) alludes to it being a group.

annoyingly perhaps the only other time besides Perfect Memento where the contract is actually brought up, if I recall correctly (well, better than it not being brought up anywhere else at all, I suppose).

Yukari's talk with Kasen in WaHH implicitly confirms that the youkai don't eat the humans one would expect them to eat.
Speaking of which, that talk does a funny thing with Yukari saying "Humans don't need to know the answer to that. Neither do hermits.  ...But I'll tell you." Funny Yukari.

[cuc]

But this "promise" isn't the spell card rules - it should be the Great Barrier's founding principle, in effect since Gensokyo Year 0.

PMiSS actually heavily implied, because a series of rules that forbid any real fighting, youkai began losing their willpower, and the spell card rules is a SOLUTION to this problem, by allowing non-lethal youkai vs. youkai and youkai vs. human fighting.

[Starxsword]

As for the spell card rules, it's implied (or outright stated. I forget which at the moment) they're under a devil's contract and thus can't be broken. I'm not sure how a contract can apply to an entire area rather than an individual, but it's confirmed (at least under some interpretations of the following statement) that this is possible since the "humans from the village are not for eating under the contract".

I don't believe this is ever implied or stated. In fact, we know this is something youkai do not necessarily have to follow. Take Silent Sinner in Blue for instance, Marisa gave a brief description of spell card rules and Yorihime was playing with the rules. That is pretty much all.

This is also why Marisa is kind of iffy about some of Suika's cards, because Marisa doesn't believe they are spell cards.
This is mentioned here, http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/The_Grimoire_of_Marisa/Suika_Ibuki%27s_Spell_Cards.

[Imosa]

I'd expect Yorihime to be an exception to the spell card rules since the moon isn't part of Gensokyo. Although, I suppose Old Hell isn't either and Okuu seemed pretty convinced that the surface had to be invaded.

[Tiamat]

The "Promise" is just an example of how a devil's contract can apply to an entire area, not individuals (under some interpretations of the statement). IE, everyone in Gensokyo would be bound by Gensokyo's contracts (of which there is the village contract, and of which there is maybe the spell card contract if that's a contract) whether they individually agreed to the contract or not (again, under only some interpretations of the statement). It is not the spell card rules themselves, which, if the spell card rules are hypothetically a contract, would possibly/probably be a separate contract..

The spell card rules could be taken as implied to be under a devil's contract because PMiSS points out the original draft was written on youkai contract paper.

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Draft_of_Spell_Card_Rules

"the original draft is written on the same paper used for youkai's contracts. "

Of course, this is just an implication rather than proof because it basically assumes "youkai contract" = "devil's contract". An assumption which IMHO is logical enough but definately not something that can be stated for sure.

And I wouldn't really take Yorihime as a good example. She's not from Gensokyo nor was the battle in Gensokyo.

[Tengukami]

To be honest the leap from "paper used for youkai's contracts" to "devil's contract" seems a pretty big one to take. All the type of paper used "implies" is that someone used youkai contract-making paper to make the contract; we can't even be certain a youkai wrote it.

[Tiamat]

To be honest the leap from "paper used for youkai's contracts" to "devil's contract" seems a pretty big one to take. All the type of paper used "implies" is that someone used youkai contract-making paper to make the contract; we can't even be certain a youkai wrote it.

It's the law of the conservation of detail.  "Paper used to make youkai contracts" isn't something most authors would bother bringing up if youkai contracts weren't involved somehow.

[Sungho]

The details were given to show that some youkai could have proposed the rule to the shrine maiden.

The Stage 3 dialogue of th11 uses this word too, and it's quite sure nothing supernatural is forcing them to keep the promise.


I always thought any youkai who eats humans from the Human Village would be severely punished, and that's how the promise is kept.
(I currently have nothing to back this up.)

[Tengukami]

It's the law of the conservation of detail.  "Paper used to make youkai contracts" isn't something most authors would bother bringing up if youkai contracts weren't involved somehow.

Well yeah, I think it's easy to imply this was a contract written by a youkai (according to a most unreliable narrator, anyway; I think the Spell Card Rules benefit humans more than youkai, but that's totally off topic), but a devil's contract? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by this. I don't see the connection. Can you explain it more?