Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer

[Limian]

And it's another logical fallacy to say "we have no evidence that her jurisdiction isn't beyond Gensokyo, therefore we can include the possibility that her jurisdiction extends beyond the border".

no, it isn't a logical fallacy to consider possibilities that no evidence speaks against. you can call it speculation (and it is, but I wouldn't discount it for that), but you can't call it illogical. a Gensokyo with an origami-enjoying, outside-world-soul-judging Eiki is just as possible as one with a Gensokyo purist Eiki who hates the living guts out of origami.
remember, including a possibility isn't the same as declaring it as fact.

[Tiamat]

A completely forgotten youkai is a dead youkai, isn't it? That's part of the whole point of youkai doing things like the system of attacking humans and humans exterimating youkai, as well as putting themselves into books in FS so they'll never be completely forgotten.

[Tengukami]

remember, including a possibility isn't the same as declaring it as fact.

I totally recognize that distinction; I'm saying that "there is nothing saying this isn't true" is not the same thing as "evidence for it being true". Not all speculations are created equal.

Although I am totally fine with Eiki playing origami.

[Sagus]

A completely forgotten youkai is a dead youkai, isn't it? That's part of the whole point of youkai doing things like the system of attacking humans and humans exterimating youkai, as well as putting themselves into books in FS so they'll never be completely forgotten.

I think the process is a little more nebulous than that... I mean, how can humanity completely forget a youkai or youkai type? Even if all records of it are destroyed, unless the creature was also already physically destroyed, it still should be able to go around showing itself, no? Even because, knowledge of it's existance should still exist in the minds of the people that tried to eliminate proofs of it existance in the first place.

Kyouko's entry says that since people began to understand echoes as just sound being reflected, lots of yamabikos started feeling that they were losing their purpose and were, therefore, becoming extinct; Kyouko entered the Myouren temple so that she could have a new purpose for her existance.

So, maybe belief/fear is what empowers the youkai, but once that is removed, they become just husks of their former self; not yet dead, but without any purpose, and since youkai, unlike humans, have already a set purpose in life, they either need to find another one, or languish and, eventually, die.

edit: ...maybe I should've placed this in the theory thread. ugh.

[Imosa]

Yuka doesn't have any specific real world legends to her, either. And Yukari most certainly came from the future, so no specific legends about her either.

I don't think everything that is forgotten or believed to be a myth goes to Gensokyo, and consider that there are still youkai and other monsters living in the outside (Mamizou, Hobgoblins, Chupacabras). I don't think anything too far away from Japan can just accidentaly end up in Gensokyo, for example; otherwise there'd be a huge amount of non-japanese monsters there.

A forgotten person is not someone who's existence is actively denied, or someone who's existence is dependent on human belief/fear to sustain its existance. It's just a lost person. Needless to say that millions of such people exist. Gensokyo would be crawnling with street urchins if that was the case.

Also, consider that Prince Shotoku was a person of great power and importance; she wasn't a random Joe. She was also in the middle of a process that required magic to be completed; perhaps both that and the lack of certainty in her existance is what sent her to Gensokyo.

Ugh, yeah, Yuuka's back story is a mess what with PC-98. Ok. As for Yukari... *shiver* there's already enough mystery surrounding her.

Those other monsters can only persist outside of Gensokyo because there is still belief in them. As for non-japanese monsters, sure, maybe it's a vicinity thing.

There is a good reason why Gensokyo isn't filled with street urchins though. People know street urchins exist, that's not a debated idea, so just being a street urchin isn't enough. I'm talking more along the lines of that family that was lost in Siberia. The existence of this family is much easier to dispute then Street Urchins because families don't generally survive like they did.
It is true that Prince Shotoku was dead (dead enough?) when she got moved but it wasn't just her, it was also her Mausoleum. Was that thing also magic?

[Sagus]

Ugh, yeah, Yuuka's back story is a mess what with PC-98. Ok.

Hell, Yuuka doesn't even have a backstory. She just is.
Maybe she's so strong she willed herself into existence :V

Those other monsters can only persist outside of Gensokyo because there is still belief in them.

But that's true regarding all kinds of monsters. There are 7 billion humans in the world; it's safe to say that there's still people workshipping the Egyptian gods with full fervor. The whole process on how monsters cease or begin to exist is really, really vague; how many humans need to believe in something before it begins to exist (I'd say one is enough, considering that Reimu creates a god inside a tree just by herself, but...)? How much can a story about a monster diverge before it spawns a new monster, or force that monster to mutate? How can people even forget that the thing exists, or begin to deny its existance, when it's still around causing trouble? And so on. Maybe it's best to not think too hard about it.

There is a good reason why Gensokyo isn't filled with street urchins though. People know street urchins exist, that's not a debated idea, so just being a street urchin isn't enough. I'm talking more along the lines of that family that was lost in Siberia. The existence of this family is much easier to dispute then Street Urchins because families don't generally survive like they did.
It is true that Prince Shotoku was dead (dead enough?) when she got moved but it wasn't just her, it was also her Mausoleum. Was that thing also magic?

Ah, I see.

Hmm... maybe it's because there's nothing magical or mystical associated with these people, their existance or their survival. Above all, Gensokyo is a refuge to things that depend on belief; humans in that universe don't need it to actually mantain a solid existance, as far as we know.

As for Miko's mausoleum, well, according to her official profile, it had it's seals continually replaced by buddhist monks ever since she began the process. Since the seals were there to stop her ressurection in the first place, maybe they stopped her from being ripped from there just by herself, and so forced the whole place to be transportated.

On a side note, I'd love to see the faces of the current generation of monks in charge of renovating the seals on Miko's mausoleum when they realized it had suddenly disappeared.

[Tengukami]

So, I have a question about Imperishable Night.

I know this game - or rather, the English patch - is a bit infamous for some of its loltastic translations (e.g., "Let's get this youkai party started!", "Bitch, move out of the way" etc.). But while these translations take liberties while retaining a meaning sorta close to the Japanese, are there any English translations in Imperishable Night that are just straight-up wrong? How about in the other games?

[ToyoRai]

QUick question: I read that Kasen has some sort of magical drinking thing like Suika's gourd or Yuugi's sake plate What is it and what does it do?

[TrueShadow]

QUick question: I read that Kasen has some sort of magical drinking thing like Suika's gourd or Yuugi's sake plate What is it and what does it do?

It's featured in WaHH Chapter 16, called "Ibaraki Box of a Hundred Medicine". Any sake that's drunk from it gains miraculous healing capabilities, and if you're already healthy to begin with, you gain super strengh for a while instead. It has a catch, though...After drinking it, your personality becomes like an oni (that is, loudmouthed, boisterous, rude, and stuff), and if it actually heals you, you become an oni.

[Imosa]

So, I have a question about Imperishable Night.

I know this game - or rather, the English patch - is a bit infamous for some of its loltastic translations (e.g., "Let's get this youkai party started!", "Bitch, move out of the way" etc.). But while these translations take liberties while retaining a meaning sorta close to the Japanese, are there any English translations in Imperishable Night that are just straight-up wrong? How about in the other games?

I feel like your best bet for keeping up with stuff like this is to just use the Wiki translation.

It's featured in WaHH Chapter 16, called "Ibaraki Box of a Hundred Medicine". Any sake that's drunk from it gains miraculous healing capabilities, and if you're already healthy to begin with, you gain super strengh for a while instead. It has a catch, though...After drinking it, your personality becomes like an oni (that is, loudmouthed, boisterous, rude, and stuff), and if it actually heals you, you become an oni.

I'll add that it can't cure Kasen's arm, so since it can't actually heal her, she doesn't become an oni. Don't the personality changes only take effect if you are already healthy as well, explaining why Kasen doesn't gain the Oni personality.

[Tengukami]

I feel like your best bet for keeping up with stuff like this is to just use the Wiki translation.

Eh? I'm asking Japanese speakers if there are any translations already in English patches which are just wrong. As a curiosity, to know. Rather ask the folks here who do read Japanese than do a line-by-line comparison between each translated game and their respective wiki pages.

[ToyoRai]

I'll add that it can't cure Kasen's arm, so since it can't actually heal her, she doesn't become an oni. Don't the personality changes only take effect if you are already healthy as well, explaining why Kasen doesn't gain the Oni personality.

Also to note that where the box cannot heal her arm, she still drinks from it or else her arm will completely rot away.

[Imosa]

Eh? I'm asking Japanese speakers if there are any translations already in English patches which are just wrong. As a curiosity, to know. Rather ask the folks here who do read Japanese than do a line-by-line comparison between each translated game and their respective wiki pages.

I should have said, "keep up with the wiki translation". It's just that, if someone comes on here right now, and tells you that a passage is wrong, he'll be contending with the generally accepted source of information, created by not just one, but a group of people. In fact, if this person were serious about his translation he'd skip you and go straight to the wiki so the idea gets more exposure. Plus, IN is 9 years old, the chances of a change in translation seem a bit steep. You'll want to verify such information with sources you already trust, and if you're like many other non-japanese speakers, that might be the wiki.

[Tengukami]

I think you're overcomplicating the question maybe just a little bit.

I am just asking for examples of bad translations in the English patch of Imperishable Night or other games. Just examples, for fun, out of curiosity.

That's it. If you can't answer the question, that's totally cool.

[Drake]

I'll add that it can't cure Kasen's arm, so since it can't actually heal her, she doesn't become an oni. Don't the personality changes only take effect if you are already healthy as well, explaining why Kasen doesn't gain the Oni personality.

Also to note that where the box cannot heal her arm, she still drinks from it or else her arm will completely rot away.

Both of these were just her excuses for not behaving like an oni, I wouldn't take her claims here as serious. Her arm might have something to do with her condition and masquerading, but considering she's basically confirmed to be an oni I would think that she doesn't become an oni simply because she already is one. She just had to think of something on the spot to convince Sanae.

[AJS]

Could anyone identify the artist/album for these two songs?  I got them from a Vs. Saxton Hale server in Team Fortress 2 where all of the bosses are Touhou characters, and these are the songs played in-game--they show up in my game folder with no MP3 tags or anything.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/92386785/eirin2.mp3
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/92386785/koishi.mp3

[Imosa]

Both of these were just her excuses for not behaving like an oni, I wouldn't take her claims here as serious. Her arm might have something to do with her condition and masquerading, but considering she's basically confirmed to be an oni I would think that she doesn't become an oni simply because she already is one. She just had to think of something on the spot to convince Sanae.

Thinking Kasen is an oni is one thing, but automatically assuming the things she says are false, is another. We have no reason to think she's lieing about these things. Plus, she might have had some actual reason for bringing that box in the first place.

Also she might be an oni but she doesn't have the same temperament and I don't see why the box can't make Oni more Oni-like.

[Drake]

I wasn't saying that they were false, just that they were excuses and shouldn't be taken too seriously because of it.
But actually, upon rereading the chapter, I see that I mistook Sanae for Kasen. It's actually more interesting now, because if drinking from the box will turn you into an oni upon healing you, it's implied that her arm definitely has something to do with her condition. If I were to speculate, I'd say that Kasen has suppressed her oni self in some manner. If she stops drinking from her box of medicines, then the remainder of her oni self, embodied in her arm, will disappear. In that vein, this could be why she doesn't act very oni-like and her presumed horns are small enough to be hidden; she has turned herself into not-an-oni for her plans, but continues to keep her oni self hidden.

[Starxsword]

Yuka doesn't have any specific real world legends to her, either. And Yukari most certainly came from the future, so no specific legends about her either.

I can't say about Yuuka, but Yukari is a Sukima (Gap Youkai), and there are legends about them. Are there any legends about flower youkai? I can only think of one off the top of my head, but that's from Chinese myth. And Yuuka's character definitely does not match that myth.

I don't think anything too far away from Japan can just accidentaly end up in Gensokyo, for example; otherwise there'd be a huge amount of non-japanese monsters there.

The Scarlet Devil Mansion crew most likely came in from Europe somewhere. But I don't think they accidentally ended up in Gensokyo though. They most likely did what the Moriya crew did and warped in.

A completely forgotten youkai is a dead youkai, isn't it? That's part of the whole point of youkai doing things like the system of attacking humans and humans exterimating youkai, as well as putting themselves into books in FS so they'll never be completely forgotten.

Yes, that is usually the case, but not always the case. Gensokyo's youkai seems to have changed beyond they are supposed to be.

[Tiamat]

Maribel's life changed the day she was crushed under a bookshelf.


Perfect Memento states that Yuuka's main fighting ability has little to do with her powers. I wonder if this applies to her character as well, since you'd think a FLOWER youkai would be one of the more peaceful types. So if one is to find the source of Yuuka's myth (assuming it exists), it should probably ignore Yuuka's rather... antagonistic personality and just search for a youkai that just does simple things like revive wilted flowers or turn the direction flowers are facing (and the other abilities Akyuu lists).


She's also described as a force of nature like fairies, except far more dangerous. Hmm.

[cuc]

Speaking of Yukari, here's my friend's newest research: in Mouryou no Hako (a supernatural mystery novel by Kyogoku Natsuhiko, also adapted into an anime), the youkai Mouryou is given a thorough examination.

The word 罔両/罔良 Mouryou (Wangliang in Mandarin), started as a word meaning "the fuzzy region around a shadow" (or as ancient people saw it, "the shadow of shadow"), eventually became 魑魅魍魉 Chimimouryou (Chimeiwangliang in Mandarin), a generalized term for all evil spirits lurking in nature, and can be used as a metaphor for "all manners of bad people". According to the novel (and this is the part that might be invented by the author), because it's such a generalized concept, Mouryou is an extremely powerful and seductive youkai, not unlike a fox, "a youkai who lives on the boundary; beyond the boundary lies fantasy (gensou)".

And Yukari has 3 spell cards named 罔両, followed by a spell card named 魍魎...

It's not exactly a new theory, since someone already proposed it on the MotoNeta wiki, but not enough people noticed. ZUN listed Kyogoku among his favorite writers in an early interview, and the influence of Kyogoku on Touhou is in fact quite apparent, so this is not a stretch at all.

I'd say Yukari is this, plus the legend of gap woman, the personality of fox (her temperament in SWR is sunshower, aka "fox wedding"), the concept of spiriting away, and (this is my speculation) the social reality of people losing everything and being forgotten in post-bubble Japan.

[Sungho]

I am just asking for examples of bad translations in the English patch of Imperishable Night or other games. Just examples, for fun, out of curiosity.

I still remember the time I laughed when I realized that the translations for Aya's final spellcard in th10 wasn't quite right.
The 塞 in 塞符 actually refers to 岐の神, which is the gods of crossroads, and is related to Sarutahiko. (I say related, but it's more like being an equivalent)
The spellcard names themselves are related to Sarutahiko.
Someone will have to have a profound knowledge of Japanese myth to even catch this reference.
There even might not be a good enough translation for 塞, but what I can say is 'Cork' is too distant to be a translation for 塞, and 塞 has absolutely no relation to cork oaks.
The reason I laughed was not because of the translation itself, but because of the comments from the wiki editors.


It is now fixed in the wiki, but Nue's first card in th12 was translated to "Peaceful Dark Clouds", because the Kanji for Heian(平安) means 'Peaceful'

In th07, 仙 was translated to 'Wizard', which isn't actually wrong. It is now translated to 'Hermit', because ZUN decided to use the word in 東方茨歌仙.

One example of a translation that isn't related to English Patches, completely wrong, but still quite insightful.
One of the music in ZUN's Strange Works, 夢幻回廊, was translated to 'Infinite Corridor', which actually should be translated to 'Fantasy Corridor' or 'Illusion Corridor' or something like that.
The 'insightful' part is that it is supposed to be a pun, 無限(Infinite) and 夢幻(Fantasy) having the same pronunciation in Japanese. Wouldn't have noticed it if the translation wasn't wrong.


I, personally, think that one of the most biggest things lost in English patches is that it can't really differentiate between Kanji and Katakana.
Nobody would say that ストレートとカーブの夢郷 and 直と曲の夢郷 really conveys the same thing. (Or maybe someone will, I don't know)
I think that the Music and spellcards sort of loses the 'ZUNness' in their names.
Many other things are lost in translation, but anyone knows what they are.


Ignoring all the small details, the English patches are quite well done, and there really isn't any completely wrong translations.
Translating between completely different languages is never a easy task, especially if it makes a bunch of references to folklore and Chinese idioms and the like.
I would say that the things lost in translation is quite a small price to pay compared to what someone will have to go through to understand most of the game.

[Tengukami]

Thanks, Sagus, that was really interesting.

[Sagus]

I can't say about Yuuka, but Yukari is a Sukima (Gap Youkai)

Is there any place with info about this youkai? The only thing I find when I search about it is info about a jazz style or Yukari herself.

She's also described as a force of nature like fairies, except far more dangerous. Hmm.

She's the anthropomorphic personification of nature's brutality :getdown:

Thanks, Sagus, that was really interesting.

Hah, I think you mean "Sungho"

[cuc]

Mistranslations? I'm not very familiar with English patches. Yes, "Cork Sign" is hilarious.

東方妖恋談 "Oriental Mystical Love Consultation", or whatever it is, is another memorable mistranslation. The 談 in this name means "tale", rather than "consult". I'd translate it as  "Oriental Youkai Love Story". (see also: 怪奇談 "Strange Tales" and Touhou 5's main title: 東方怪綺談 "Strange and Splendid Tales of the East")

Oh, when we are talking about that, I'd translate most instances of a single 妖 you/ayakashi character as "youkai", since more often than not, it is used to refer to youkai. There might be places where it can be translated as something like "sorcery". The kanji 妖 should never, ever be translated as "mystical"; "charming", "bewitching", maybe, depending on context.

仙 is still a source of headache. Many examples of its usage in Touhou, such as 仙力, is just too weird if translated as "hermit" - "hermit power", what is that? The character 仙, in the East Asian context, automatically conjures the idea of a powerful mystic, and all the good magic that comes with it; "hermit" in English doesn't do that.

EDIT: Not a mistranslation, but for the most recent example of katakana being meaningful, in HM, all of Miko's skills and story mode spell cards are named using one English word, conveying a sense of chuunibyou teenager coming up with gratuitous English names. "INFLUENCE of the East!" "DESIRE-seeking Souls!"

[Tengukami]

Hah, I think you mean "Sungho"

Derp. Pardon my fairy moment.

EDIT: Not a mistranslation, but for the most recent example of katakana being meaningful, in HM, all of Miko's skills and story mode spell cards are named using one English word, conveying a sense of chuunibyou teenager coming up with gratuitous English names. "INFLUENCE of the East!" "DESIRE-seeking Souls!"

Oh man that is hilarious. Thanks!

[Prime32]

EDIT: Not a mistranslation, but for the most recent example of katakana being meaningful, in HM, all of Miko's skills and story mode spell cards are named using one English word, conveying a sense of chuunibyou teenager coming up with gratuitous English names. "INFLUENCE of the East!" "DESIRE-seeking Souls!"

I figure that could be translated by putting exclamation marks in the names. Possibly multiple exclamation marks :V

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

I think all-caps and exclamation-marks (i.e. exactly as cuc put it) does the job. :3

[Drake]

I'd rather put in more deliberately awful/DEEP-sounding padding words, but the words she picked don't really afford that well.

仙 is still a source of headache. Many examples of its usage in Touhou, such as 仙力, is just too weird if translated as "hermit" - "hermit power", what is that? The character 仙, in the East Asian context, automatically conjures the idea of a powerful mystic, and all the good magic that comes with it; "hermit" in English doesn't do that.

IMMORTAL MAGICAL TAOIST WIZARD POWERRRRR

Personally I prefer "sage" since it evokes the sense of magic, a long life/age, and diligent training, which are all important parts of 仙人.

[Polaris]

"Transcendent" (used as a noun) could work for a translation of 仙人. It's what Wikipedia uses at least.