Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer

[TrueShadow]

Although souls from the outside world can leak into Gensokyo and Komachi needs to ferry them, like what happened in PoFV.

As Touhou is based on the eastern mythologies, we don't know about the truth about other, western religions. Who knows, maybe River Styx is the same thing as Sanzu river, just called by a different name, and Charon is a Shinigami located in Greece. Or maybe there are multiple processes of the afterlife, and which one you go through depends on which one you believes. On a sidenote, according to Seiga, Jesus did exist and ressurected 3 days after his death, although it is debatable if Seiga actually know this or just happened to hear it somewhere.

[Ikari]

Since every of Kokoro's masks are supposed to represent an emotion, what does the fox mask represent?

[Clarste]

Since every of Kokoro's masks are supposed to represent an emotion, what does the fox mask represent?

Since she basically wears it when she decides to kill you, probably murderous intent or something.

[Starxsword]

So I wonder, is Gensokyo the only gateway to the Sanzu River in the world, or are there multiple gateways? Do all the souls in the world float off to Gensokyo to reach the Sanzu River and pass on, or do only the souls of Gensokyo take this gateway? And do only souls who believe in Shintoism/Buddhism go to Sanzu River, or all souls regardless of religion?

I'm guessing there are multiple ways to cross the Sanzu River. But my assumption is all faiths will go to the Sanzu River and pass on to Higan where they receive judgement.

I'm not sure, but I think that Komachi is specifically Gensokyo's ferryman (Shiki is explicitly said to be Gensokyo's Yama, so presumably she only judges the souls that come from there. If Komachi is her direct servant, it'd stand to reason that she only ferries souls from Gensokyo)

Not sure if she is Gensokyo's Yama, but she is the highest judge of paradise.

[Clarste]

My impression was that "Xanadu" was a larger legal jurisdiction that happened to include Gensokyo. But not only Gensokyo. So she's the judge of Gensokyo, and no one else will ever judge souls coming from Gensokyo, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't judge anyone else.

[TrueShadow]

Also, didn't she say something like other Yamas except her getting a lot of souls to judge in PoFV? That probably implies that not all souls go through Gensokyo.

[Clarste]

...why would all souls go through Gensokyo? Was anyone thinking they did?

[TrueShadow]

Wasn't the incident of PoFV caused by souls from the outside world? That would suggest that some souls do go through Gensokyo after death. Or maybe it's just a special occasion every 60 years?

Although that I'm thinking more about it, it might be because those souls are part of Eiki/Komachi's area of charge (assuming those two covers an area larger than Gensokyo), so they went to the nearest entrance to the afterlife : Gensokyo.

[Sagus]

Not sure if she is Gensokyo's Yama, but she is the highest judge of paradise.

PMiSS: "As she is in charge of judging the dead of Gensokyo, she is the Yama with the closest ties to us", emphasis mine (also, reading the Yama entry shows that each Jizou statue that became a Yama is in charge of judging the souls of their place of origin). And if there's anyone Akyuu would certainly know much about, it's Eiki, seeing as how she spents 100 years working for her and all.

...makes me wonder why there isn't more Akyuu/Eiki stuff, now that I think about it.

Wasn't the incident of PoFV caused by souls from the outside world? That would suggest that some souls do go through Gensokyo after death. Or maybe it's just a special occasion every 60 years?

It's a special event that only happens every 60 years, yeah. Yukari explains the reason in this story from Seasonal Dream Vision (it's written by ZUN, so it can safely be considered canon).

[Starxsword]

PMiSS: "As she is in charge of judging the dead of Gensokyo, she is the Yama with the closest ties to us", emphasis mine (also, reading the Yama entry shows that each Jizou statue that became a Yama is in charge of judging the souls of their place of origin). And if there's anyone Akyuu would certainly know much about, it's Eiki, seeing as how she spents 100 years working for her and all.

Yeah, I know. What I mean is it doesn't exclude her from judging other areas. Yes, Akyuu would definitely know quite a bit about the dead. She most likely worked with Eiki and Komachi and maybe Yuyuko and Youmu.

Although that I'm thinking more about it, it might be because those souls are part of Eiki/Komachi's area of charge (assuming those two covers an area larger than Gensokyo), so they went to the nearest entrance to the afterlife : Gensokyo.

Eiki is in Higan. That area is not in Gensokyo. I don't think there are any clues on where it is at, other than the fact that you need to cross the Sanzu River.

[Imosa]

Is there any particular reason why things from the outside world end up in Gensokyo. The Crested Ibis from Curiosities of Lotus Asia, for example. Did they just migrate into Gensokyo? A similar question is, does anything prevent new, non-forgotten items from entering Gensokyo?

[Clarste]

Is there any particular reason why things from the outside world end up in Gensokyo. The Crested Ibis from Curiosities of Lotus Asia, for example. Did they just migrate into Gensokyo? A similar question is, does anything prevent new, non-forgotten items from entering Gensokyo?

Forgotten or disbelieved things just teleport there on their own. This is what happened to Miko: her tomb entered Gensokyo once historians started questioning whether Prince Shoutoku actually existed (which they are questioning, in real life). Presumably this is how the Barrier was designed. The Crested Ibis are an interesting problem though, because a recent FS chapter claimed that the Barrier has no effect on animals. Endangered animals have been mentioned as appearing in Gensokyo several times though, so maybe that's an exception?

As for preventing new things from entering Gensokyo, the Barrier only seems to work on humans. Sunlight and animals and weather and whatnot can come in from outside, or so says Kanako (what about PCB?). It basically exists to keep humans out. So the only reason technology and whatnot haven't proliferated into Gensokyo is because no one can bring it in.

[Sungho]

In most BGMs in th135, someone's name is mentioned along with a certain instrument.
How should I interpret this? I thought the BGMs were digitally created?

[Sagus]

Yeah, I know. What I mean is it doesn't exclude her from judging other areas. Yes, Akyuu would definitely know quite a bit about the dead. She most likely worked with Eiki and Komachi and maybe Yuyuko and Youmu.

While she probably does so if needed (like every 60 years), I don't think it's the norm; otherwise a Yama's jurisdiction wouldn't need to be based on location.

In most BGMs in th135, someone's name is mentioned along with a certain instrument.
How should I interpret this? I thought the BGMs were digitally created?

I'm not sure, but I think that the music from the fighting games are all played on real instruments.

[Imosa]

Sunlight and animals and weather and whatnot can come in from outside, or so says Kanako (what about PCB?).

Where does Kanako say that? Also what about PCB?

[Sagus]

Where does Kanako say that?

SoPM.

[cuc]

In the fighting games, some instruments that can't be emulated by synthesizers are played by real instruments, most notably the violins.

[Clarste]

While she probably does so if needed (like every 60 years), I don't think it's the norm; otherwise a Yama's jurisdiction wouldn't need to be based on location.

I think you're missing the point. It says she judges everything from Gensokyo, yes, but that just means Gensokyo is within her jurisdiction, not that it necessarily covers her entire jurisdiction. Her title is literally "Yama of Xanadu" so unless Xanadu is a synonym for Gensokyo it's actually implied that her jurisdiction is larger than that. Think of Gensokyo as a city within a larger country. Eiki is in charge of that country (Xanadu) which includes Gensokyo. The "Yama of Germany" judges all souls from Berlin, but Berlin isn't the only place in Germany.

[Sagus]

I'm... not sure that's the actual reasoning of her title, or where you're getting that from. Consider the fact that absolutely nowhere it's said that she judges anything other than Gensokyo souls. And considering that the real Xanadu was the capital of a Chinese dynasty, it doesn't make any sense to say that her jurisdiction involves an actual place called Xanadu; rather, like the wiki states, her title is better translated as "Yama of Paradise" (based on the use of "Xanadu" as "Pleasure Palace" in a poem [which was also refering to the real Xanadu]), which I'm pretty sure is just a rank title and not a literal description of what her jurisdiction is.

Alternatively, it could be exactly that, and "paradise" is just a way to refer to Gensokyo, and maybe other fantastic realms similar to it, if there's any at all.

But all that is pure speculation; going by the only info we have for sure, there's nothing suggesting that she regularly judges souls from outside of Gensokyo (except for every 60 years). Otherwise, Akyuu would at least write "judges all the souls of Gensokyo and more" or something like that on her profile.

[Clarste]

I'm... not sure that's the actual reasoning of her title, or where you're getting that from. Consider the fact that absolutely nowhere it's said that she judges anything other than Gensokyo souls. And considering that the real Xanadu was the capital of a Chinese dynasty, it doesn't make any sense to say that her jurisdiction involves an actual place called Xanadu; rather, like the wiki states, her title is better translated as "Yama of Paradise" (based on the use of "Xanadu" as "Pleasure Palace" in a poem [which was also refering to the real Xanadu]), which I'm pretty sure is just a rank title and not a literal description of what her jurisdiction is.

Alternatively, it could be exactly that, and "paradise" is just a way to refer to Gensokyo, and maybe other fantastic realms similar to it, if there's any at all.

But all that is pure speculation; going by the only info we have for sure, there's nothing suggesting that she regularly judges souls from outside of Gensokyo (except for every 60 years). Otherwise, Akyuu would at least write "judges all the souls of Gensokyo and more" or something like that on her profile.

I'm just talking about a natural language reading of her description. It's certainly possible that she only governs Gensokyo, but we have no evidence one way or the other. I was simply objecting to your use of "judges all the souls from Gensokyo" as evidence that she only works in Gensokyo, because that simply makes no sense, grammatically or logically.

The meaning of "she judges all the souls from Gensokyo" is simply that no one else judges any souls from Gensokyo, not that the only souls she judges are from Gensokyo. You're making a pretty straightforward logical fallacy.

Also, "other fantastic realms" is exactly what I would naturally assume. Like, say, the Lunar Capital if anyone actually died there.

[Sagus]

While it's not what the grammar says per se, it's perfectly logical to assume that she judges only from Gensokyo based solely on the fact that she's never stated or even implied to judge souls from other places.

But whatever, I'm splitting hairs here. 'Tis not like what you're saying is nonsensical.

[Imosa]

Forgotten or disbelieved things just teleport there on their own. This is what happened to Miko: her tomb entered Gensokyo once historians started questioning whether Prince Shoutoku actually existed (which they are questioning, in real life). Presumably this is how the Barrier was designed. The Crested Ibis are an interesting problem though, because a recent FS chapter claimed that the Barrier has no effect on animals. Endangered animals have been mentioned as appearing in Gensokyo several times though, so maybe that's an exception?

So one way of getting into Genoskyo would be to have everyone forget about you? Like if you were to raise a child in seclusion and then kill yourself, the child would now be able to enter Gensokyo?

[Kosachi]

So one way of getting into Genoskyo would be to have everyone forget about you? Like if you were to raise a child in seclusion and then kill yourself, the child would now be able to enter Gensokyo?

I think that only applies to ideologies and myths/legends. As for how people get in there, they have to pretty much be born in there or brought in ie: Sanae

That, or I remember reading (I don't remember where) that some people get into Gensokyo by pure chance. Most of these unfortunate souls get eaten by Youkai mere moments after they cross in. Those that find their way to the Hakurei shrine either get brought out by Reimu or stay in the human village to live out their lives if they choose to stay.

[Tiamat]

Reisen's conversation with Eiki before the final fight kiiinda implies she has other jurisdictions besides Gensokyo. ....maybe. (also, maybe things were lost in the translation)

[Drake]

I figured she means the Yama coming to Gensokyo/Higan from Hell.

[Tengukami]

The meaning of "she judges all the souls from Gensokyo" is simply that no one else judges any souls from Gensokyo, not that the only souls she judges are from Gensokyo. You're making a pretty straightforward logical fallacy.

And it's another logical fallacy to say "we have no evidence that her jurisdiction isn't beyond Gensokyo, therefore we can include the possibility that her jurisdiction extends beyond the border".

We know what we know; beyond that it's pure speculation without evidence.

EDIT: To elaborate, I contend that Eiki enjoys origami as a part of her daily routine. I have no evidence to support this, but then again, there's no evidence specifically stating that she doesn't enjoy origami, so I might continue to contend this evidence-free point. But I'd be wrong - in the absence of available evidence either way, the burden of proof is on me to provide evidence for my claim in order for it to be true; the claim does not remain true or possible until others provide evidence that the claim is untrue.

Having said that, the idea of Eiki acting as a judge beyond Gensokyo is an interesting one, and I'd love to see it fleshed out more.

[Starxsword]

And it's another logical fallacy to say "we have no evidence that her jurisdiction isn't beyond Gensokyo, therefore we can include the possibility that her jurisdiction extends beyond the border".

We know what we know; beyond that it's pure speculation without evidence.

But it isn't pure speculation without evidence. The contention lies in Eiki's title. Her title, Highest Judge of Paradise, would include Gensokyo, but makes no limitation to other areas that fall under the category of paradise, examples like Valhalla, Nirvana, Avalon, the Moon, etc.
That said, Reimu in Phantasmagoria of Flower Viewing has a similar title, Wonderful Shrine Maiden of Paradise. Given the similarities of their titles and how Reimu's jurisdiction is only Gensokyo, it is possible Eiki's title doesn't encompass other places which fall under the definition of paradise.

[Tengukami]

The fact that the title is that specific actually works against that theory. The absence of evidence beyond what is expressly stated puts the burden of proof on whoever is contending otherwise.

e: Yes, that Reimu title is a good point.

Also, I know we're talking about Gensokyo here, but titles like "Mayor of Cincinnati" or "Governor of Delaware" or "Prime Minister of Sweden" have a tendency to mean that this person is [Title] of [Place] alone.

Anyway, the idea that Eiki has a judging jurisdiction that goes beyond Gensokyo is pretty fun, and I'd love to see like, actual evidence to support it.

[Imosa]

I think that only applies to ideologies and myths/legends. As for how people get in there, they have to pretty much be born in there or brought in ie: Sanae

That, or I remember reading (I don't remember where) that some people get into Gensokyo by pure chance. Most of these unfortunate souls get eaten by Youkai mere moments after they cross in. Those that find their way to the Hakurei shrine either get brought out by Reimu or stay in the human village to live out their lives if they choose to stay.

However, we only say that for lack of examples where an ordinary person has been forgotten and appeared in Gensokyo. Right? I mean, if Prince Sho[I don't know his name]'s tomb appeared in Gensokyo just because it's existence was questioned it seems like a natural extension would be that a person would experience the same effect if questioned, or as an extreme, denied entirely (btw, that's appealing to a sense of reason, not a suggestion that inference actually yields truth).
I just noticed that, with the nature of touhou, it seems nothing in Gensokyo has completely disappeared from this world, has it. It does remain in legend. Lets say ZUN were to make a new youkai appear that had no historical documentation what so ever. He could just say that its a youkai that has been forgotten so thoroughly that there is no documentation. However, if he did that it would seem out of place. Is there a creature in Gensokyo with no connection to any legend in real life. Medicine, although presumably she was born in Gensokyo?

[Sagus]

Yuka doesn't have any specific real world legends to her, either. And Yukari most certainly came from the future, so no specific legends about her either.

I don't think everything that is forgotten or believed to be a myth goes to Gensokyo, and consider that there are still youkai and other monsters living in the outside (Mamizou, Hobgoblins, Chupacabras). I don't think anything too far away from Japan can just accidentaly end up in Gensokyo, for example; otherwise there'd be a huge amount of non-japanese monsters there.

A forgotten person is not someone who's existence is actively denied, or someone who's existence is dependent on human belief/fear to sustain its existance. It's just a lost person. Needless to say that millions of such people exist. Gensokyo would be crawnling with street urchins if that was the case.

Also, consider that Prince Shotoku was a person of great power and importance; she wasn't a random Joe. She was also in the middle of a process that required magic to be completed; perhaps both that and the lack of certainty in her existance is what sent her to Gensokyo.