Author Topic: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer  (Read 271351 times)

Kosachi

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #390 on: February 18, 2013, 07:31:30 PM »
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Ten_Desires/Story/Reimu%27s_Scenario#Stage_5
Is Toyosatomimi no Miko actually the crown prince or the crown princess?
It all depends on whether Miko is based on Prince Shoutoku or not. If she isn't, then there's no issue.
If she is, (Which is extremely likely) then there may have been a tiiiiny mistake during resurrection.  :derp: 
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Delfigamer

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #391 on: February 18, 2013, 07:48:48 PM »
People had forgotten Miko's gender, as well as her mausoleum. As we know, Gensokyo contains not actual things and persons, but rather legends and myths. So, if people begin to think the prince was the princess, the legend located on the other side of the Hakurei barrier will be altered accordingly.
However, that seems to not work well with humans, since they themselves are the source of that legends.
So, hm, it's more likely that the prince had done genderswap during shikaisenization, since one can choose which body used object will turn into.
...like that.

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danyun

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #392 on: February 18, 2013, 09:55:56 PM »
Persona 4 in Touhou. Aside from Inaba.

What about the tofu shop Marukyu? Because Maru means 'circle', and kyu means 'nine'. It hardly seems like a coincidence to me.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 12:01:51 AM by Tengukami »
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #393 on: February 18, 2013, 10:19:20 PM »
People had forgotten Miko's gender, as well as her mausoleum. As we know, Gensokyo contains not actual things and persons, but rather legends and myths. So, if people begin to think the prince was the princess, the legend located on the other side of the Hakurei barrier will be altered accordingly.
However, that seems to not work well with humans, since they themselves are the source of that legends.
So, hm, it's more likely that the prince had done genderswap during shikaisenization, since one can choose which body used object will turn into.
...like that.

I don't think it's even an issue. ZUN directly notes this in Sanae's ending, and makes zero attempts to explain it or even hint at why Miko is a girl now. Until there's an explanation given, it's probably best to just say it's a tongue-in-cheek metajoke by ZUN.

Persona 4 in Touhou. Aside from Inaba.

What about the tofu shop Marukyu? Because Maru means 'circle', and kyu means 'nine'. It hardly seems like a coincidence to me.
Ammy: Way to be confusing, I was about to answer it and suddenly it didn't exist and it wasn't the latest post in any thread lol

It's 丸久, not 丸九.  Note 久 is in her family name, 久慈川.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 12:07:21 AM by Drake »

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cuc

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #394 on: February 19, 2013, 04:03:52 AM »
Unlike most other characters in Touhou, TD and SoPM leaves no doubt that Miko is Prince Shoutoku. As far as a possible official explanation goes, SoPM said shikasen can choose their appearance.

it's probably best to just say it's a tongue-in-cheek metajoke by ZUN
Touhou is permanently in tongue-in-cheek mode. Even when discussing the gravest issues.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #395 on: February 19, 2013, 04:19:20 AM »
prince shotoku really just wanted to be the little girl

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Tengukami

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #396 on: February 19, 2013, 08:14:44 AM »
When posts are merged with topics, they appear in the thread  according to the time the post was made. I have no control over where in a thread they'll appear, sorry.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 08:17:54 AM by Tengukami »

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #397 on: February 19, 2013, 10:57:38 AM »
I don't know, I'd think the fact that she was originally a male and then become female would be a quite major point in her story and would at least be hinted at in her omniscient profile. Isn't it more likely that her true gender was just lost to history? Occam's razor and all that. Or maybe she was always female and disguised herself as male to rule.

Or maybe the buddhist priests that sealed her changed her gender in every major record of her so people would forget even her real gender and make it even less likely that she'd be ressurected by the power of legends and oh my I'm making stupid theories again :V
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #398 on: February 19, 2013, 03:18:29 PM »
ZUN always writes no more than is necessary to convey the story, leaving the rest to your imagination.

Speaking of gender, in SSIB, the infamous Chapter 19 where Toyohime tied Yukari up and dumped exposition, Yukari all but spelt out that Kanako is Take-minakata, yet also unambiguously called Take-minakata "son of Ookuninushi". So is Kanako really Take-minakata? If she is, why is she female, and where's Yasakatome, wife of Take-minakata? ZUN would only say so much, the rest is up to you.

To sort the Shoutoku thing out ( I've written about it elsewhere):

Historian A concluded because the records about Shoutoku contradicted other records so much, they must be fabricated. He said Shoutoku is a fictional philosopher king invented by Fujiwara no Fuhito (father of Mokou), a powerful aristocrat who most likely had a hand in the writing of Japan's most important history books Kojiki and Nihon Shoki, so Japan could have a great ruler comparable to the emperors of China.

Historian B disagreed, saying the apparent contradictions are signs that Fuhito was trying to systematically erase Shoutoku from history. (BTW, he's also the guy who proposed that Fuhito is Hieda no Are.)

This 20th century academic debate is the  premise of TD: now that whether Shoutoku has really lived is called into doubt, he has become another fantasy, in the same category as other myths and legends, and belongs in Gensokyo. ZUN is also playing with the idea, if we can't even be sure whether he truly existed, how can we know he's not in fact a woman?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 03:28:54 PM by cuc »
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #399 on: February 19, 2013, 04:18:39 PM »
The thig is, this still is overcomplicating things for her origin. I mean, Kanako changing can actually be easily explained by how flexible gods are; going by SoPM, gods are shaped by their legends and myths, so if, say, a group of people started to think of Take-minakata as a female deity of the wind, he's eventually start to appear as that to them. Gods can appear in whatever form they want (Suwako is said to take the form of frogs when called on different shrines, for instance). They can't really be used as an example in this case.

See, Miko has full memories of the time she was emperor; furthermore, no one that was alive in the time she was supposed to have ruled (Futo, Tojiko, Siga... Kanako herself existed back then, and would've certainly heard of Miko) question her apperance or her existence as a ruler. If she was a fully fictional charater given life inside Gensoukyo because of the controversy over her existence, wouldn't at least Kanako note that?

 Also, the profile clearly states that the mausoleum was moved to Gensoukyo, because of its nature of attracting things thought to be legends or that are fogotten. Look at this passage from the profile:

"Because Buddhist monks continued to place seals on Miko's mausoleum, she was unable to resurrect. Miko's plan had been foiled.
Miko judged she had no need to rush and could resurrect herself at any time, and so continued sleeping. Finally, the time of her resurrection came.
The trigger was a rumor that the legends regarding her were all fabricated. Since, in modern times, there were no more people with superhuman powers, it wasn't surprising that tales of her exploits were seen as simple lies.
As a result, her mausoleum ended up in Gensokyo. Since there weren't any temples in Gensokyo at that time, she prepared for her resurrection to proceed whenever she felt it was necessary.
By some stoke of timing, though, a new temple was built.
And, whether by plan or by chance, it was built directly over her mausoleum.
That was, of course, Myouren Temple."

In other words, the only reason she didn't come back to life in the outside world was because people kept putting new seals on her mausoleum. Maybe, if people continued to believe she wa real, and someone finally stopped sealing her, she'd have come back to life just fine in the outside world. I mean, magic's not entirely dead there (Maribel, Renko... heck, Mamizou lived there until recently).

tl;dr, I still think applying Occam's Razor is the safest bet here; she was always a real, female ruler of Japan, and her gender was simply lost to time. The reason people thought she was a legend is clearly stated in her profile ("(...) a rumor that the legends regarding her were all fabricated. Since, in modern times, there were no more people with superhuman powers, it wasn't surprising that tales of her exploits were seen as simple lies"). It seems more palpable considering what we have in terms of canon info than saying she's a construct that suddenly spawed in Gensoukyo because of people debating Shoutoku's existence. Well, at least I think so, anyway.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #400 on: February 19, 2013, 04:52:46 PM »
I sure if she didn't exist as a human she'd be a youkai now.

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Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #401 on: February 19, 2013, 05:08:18 PM »
That actually reminds me, are hermits and fairies considered youkai? I mean, the Three Fairies of Light could touch the Hakurei Go-shintai with no problems, but once Kasen touched it, it destroyed her bandaged arm, and she commented that youkai extermination is the blessing of the Hakurei Shrine. But then again, if Kasen really is an oni like everyone assumes, she'd be an oni hermit, so who knows if the go-shintai was reacting to the fact that she is an oni instead of reacting to her being an hermit...
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Prime32

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #402 on: February 19, 2013, 08:01:58 PM »
Hermits are considered humans. Fairies are manifestations of nature, though they sometimes get grouped in with youkai out of convenience.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #403 on: February 19, 2013, 10:02:46 PM »
The thig is, this still is overcomplicating things for her origin.

*WAY OVERCOMPLICATES THINGS*
:I
Cuc took the exact opposite path from overcomplicating things, he just explained a possible reasoning for ZUN poking fun at it.

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Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #404 on: February 19, 2013, 10:43:19 PM »
Hermits are considered humans.
But then why did Kasen's hand explode when she touched the Hakurei go-shintai?

:I
Cuc took the exact opposite path from overcomplicating things, he just explained a possible reasoning for ZUN poking fun at it.
I fail to see how I overcomplicated things considering that, if we go by cuc's reasoning for Miko's appearance in Gensoukyo, just more of questions would be raised (why hasn't anyone that was alive back when Miko ruled commented on her current form [and existence in general] and how did Futo and Tojiko end up there as well, for instance)

I'm probably overthinking this, or didn't really understand what cuc meant, but I don't see how "Miko is actually a manifestation of the contraditory accounts of history regarding Prince Shoutoku being debated in the real world" is somehow simpler then "she was a real historical figure that ended up in Gensokyo", which it's pretty much what her official profile says.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 11:15:21 PM by Sagus »
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #405 on: February 20, 2013, 01:23:13 AM »
Hermits are considered humans.
According to Byakuren in SoPM, there are probably a sizable number of tengu hermits, so youkai can become hermits.

I don't see how "Miko is actually a manifestation of the contraditory accounts of history regarding Prince Shoutoku being debated in the real world" is somehow simpler then "she was a real historical figure that ended up in Gensokyo", which it's pretty much what her official profile says.
Nothing in my post contradicts your view, and I definitely was not saying "Miko is a manifestation of contradictory accounts".

I was mostly providing background info on events that 1) from an in-universe PoV, contributed to the mausoleum's entry into Gensokyo; 2) from an outside PoV, inspired the author. And because Touhou is about the interface of myth, fiction and reality, those two PoVs are not too different from each other.

The point is, in Touhou, the world is not merely scientific facts, it's also humanity's shared perception of reality, which after all, is just as important. So "history" is constantly being created by people's beliefs, and we end up with a multitude of truths, believed by different people at different times.

As the part you quoted said (actually, thank you for bringing it into my attention), in the past, humanity's accepted "rules of reality" allowed superhuman heroes to exist, so the truth of Shoutoku was not doubted, and now his feats are deemed impossible. What can't be changed, is the fact that people once used to believed there was a Prince Shoutoku, and in this version of reality, Miko existed, and so are the gods and youkai. Gensokyo is a place for those things which "used to be true". The Touhou universe's laws of nature that sent Miko into Gensokyo are the same ones that caused gods to vanish.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 01:53:43 AM by cuc »
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Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #406 on: February 20, 2013, 01:47:45 AM »
Nothing in my post contradicts your view, and I definitely was not saying "Miko is a manifestation of contradictory accounts".

I was mostly providing background info on events that 1) from an in-universe PoV, contributed to the mausoleum's entry into Gensokyo; 2) from an outside PoV, inspired the author. And because Touhou is about the interface of myth, fiction and reality, those two PoVs are not too different from each other.
Argh, I really did misinterpreted what you meant. Sorry for that!

Quote
The point is, in Touhou, the world is not merely scientific facts, it's also humanity's shared perception of reality, which after all, is just as important. As the part you quoted said (actually, thank you for bringing it into my attention), in the past, humanity's accepted "rules of reality" allowed superhuman heroes to exist, so the truth of Shoutoku was not doubted, and now his feats are deemed impossible. The Touhou universe's laws of nature that sent Miko into Gensokyo are the same ones that's causing gods to vanish.
Indeed...
I wonder when humans gained this "ability". I mean, evolution seems to be true in the Touhouverse (going by CiLR's Toyohime chapter, whichever one it was), so humanity had to first evolve, then gain it. Kaguya says that it was the Lunarians that created youkai and gave the Earth magic, so perhaps it was then that humanity's mind began to influence the world.
...I'm babbling again. Ignore me.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #407 on: February 21, 2013, 09:42:38 AM »
Considering that Lunarians are Humans and Youkai are created out of Human beliefs, that is not an issue. However, did she say Lunarians gave the Earth magic?

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #408 on: February 21, 2013, 10:04:33 AM »
Kaguya's account is that magic comes from the Moon, and Lunarians created youkai on the earth. Yukari's account is that youkai were born out of human belief in order to explain unknown/feared phenomena and the like. These two accounts are definitely not exclusive and can probably be combined in several different ways to make some coherent explanation. But yes, Kaguya says Lunarians gave the earth magic. Somehow.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #409 on: February 21, 2013, 10:08:10 AM »
Oh I see, I guess I forgot that part then. Wow, that is kind of weird, because from what I could tell. Lunarians are humans, but they left for the moon a long long time ago. Must be Eirin or someone else making up stories to Kaguya.

Delfigamer

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #410 on: February 21, 2013, 10:42:14 AM »
Quote
Eirin Yagokoro
Age    Hundred of millions
Hm... killing all living dinosaurs was her fisrt biological experiment? :V

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #411 on: February 21, 2013, 12:06:46 PM »
Oh I see, I guess I forgot that part then. Wow, that is kind of weird, because from what I could tell. Lunarians are humans, but they left for the moon a long long time ago. Must be Eirin or someone else making up stories to Kaguya.

I think ZUN was playing with the tendency for the powerful to take the credit for pretty much everything under the sun. You know, like how Americans believe they invented airplanes, radio, combustion engines and so forth. Kaguya and Yukari are, in their own way, exercising the same kind of tactic.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #412 on: February 21, 2013, 01:58:48 PM »
If we take ZUN's drunken interviews as canon, Kaguya and Eirin are hundreds of millions years old, which makes them older tham humanity itself (the modern human species appeareed between 400.00 and 200.000 years ago). In the third chapter of CiLR, theres this passage (it's from Toyohime's POV):

"Waves rippled in silence across the lifeless ocean. As I watched the ocean, memories of the distant past sprang to my mind."

And then she goes on to talk about when life first arose from the oceans. If the translation is correct, one can interpret this as she remembering seeing this herself, which would make her VERY old (life first appeared on land in the Devonian, 400 - 350 million years ago). Alternatively, it could be she remembers someone else telling her this, of course.

Also, in Reisen's SWR ending, Eirin said the creation of Heaven happened so long ago that not even she was born. The Touhou wiki speculates that this is the Permian-Triassic extinction (since Eirin says that the event killed almost everything on Earth, and the Permian-Triassic etinction was the one that did just that), but I dunno if there's any real proof for that. Could be other extinction events, too, either more recent or even older,

This all makes me wonder if there are fantastical elements in the Touhouverse that are not dependent on human belief... or maybe it's like one of those things "once something is believed to have always existed, it always existed", so humanity can create things that predate itself.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 02:17:00 PM by Sagus »
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #413 on: February 21, 2013, 02:30:35 PM »
Back up. Let's not overthink this. Maybe I'm exhausted from the fact that the Touhou Wiki has been slowly transforming into another version of TVTropes, but when the wiki "speculates" on something, you can pretty much ignore whatever's written. And when theories are built on these very speculations, well ...

This isn't rocket science. Powerful figures will make all kinds of audacious claims of having invented this and started that. Kaguya and Yukari do the same. It's comedy.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #414 on: February 21, 2013, 02:35:03 PM »
Yeah yeah. I do find it fun to overthink things, heh

I wasn't really basing things on that speculation, though; it was more on the "Eirin and Kaguya are hundreds of million years old", Reisen's SWR ending, and CiLR third chapter.

Although for the first one I'd actually want to see the interview where ZUN said that. It's not linked in the wiki.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #415 on: February 21, 2013, 02:36:14 PM »
Overthinking and speculation are great, just not for a thread made for concrete answers to concrete questions.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #416 on: February 21, 2013, 02:41:50 PM »
...shit, that's true. I'll contain myself from now on.

So I'll actually make that a question, does anyone know where to find the interview where ZUN says Kaguya and Eirin's age?

Also, I have the impression I read somewhere that the Yatagarasu is one of Amaterasu's avatars... does anyone remember reading something like that?
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #417 on: February 22, 2013, 07:11:53 AM »
I don't know if I can find the interview, but I thought it only mentions that Eirin is ancient and not Kaguya.

I am not sure, but I believe the Yatagarasu is a god and so is Amaterasu. The latter being a stronger god than the former.

cuc

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #418 on: February 22, 2013, 07:32:26 AM »
IIRC, it's not from a proper interview. Rather, it's somebody (who must have been considered reliable) reporting him encountering ZUN in a pub, and hearing it there. The original quote is something like "the unit for counting Eirin's age is hundred million years". I may be wrong.

Yatagarasu is a separate sun god from Amaterasu.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 07:34:12 AM by cuc »
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 3 - Ask Question, Receive Answer
« Reply #419 on: February 22, 2013, 07:36:38 AM »
Oh, I see.