Author Topic: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking  (Read 52755 times)

Dormio Ergo Sum

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #150 on: November 29, 2012, 07:49:39 AM »
Although... after having another player from the Chinese team test out the system, apparently there're people who prefer the old "pick 3 elements" mechanic. So..... ~(o.o)~?
So... screw those people! They're losers!

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #151 on: November 29, 2012, 09:04:05 AM »
So... screw those people! They're losers!

^ This

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Ran-Rii

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #152 on: November 29, 2012, 09:09:41 AM »
Ohh I do already have plans for Patchy (and she's like... half done already) but don't expect to see her in the initial release. She and Alice are the two heros that I work on randomly whenever I have some time to write a spell but not enough time to make a complete spell set for a hero. She will not use the "pick 3 elements and a major element" system from current DotS. Let's just say that she'll be more similar to DotA's Invoker for now. Although... after having another player from the Chinese team test out the system, apparently there're people who prefer the old "pick 3 elements" mechanic. So..... ~(o.o)~?

Well, sir, you have already done a great deal trying to remake them, thus you should get the honor to pick. Though I seriously hate them treating Silent Selene and Royal Flare like ultimates, cause Sun Moon Sign "Royal Diamond Ring" is supposed to be a better version. Also, I think Metal Wood Water Fire Earth Sign "Philosopher's Stone" has a lot of potential. They need a lot more love than that.

You decide, or maybe just hold a poll. Cause "Pick 3 elements" to me sounds stupid. However, it is impossible to incorporate 7 skills just for Patchy...

Alice sounds very interesting, with doll placements, I'd imagine her a scout/bush checker.

I guess I'll just leave my ideas for Patch alone, and you just see what use you have of them. Yeah.

Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #153 on: November 29, 2012, 09:13:08 AM »
Quote
Although... after having another player from the Chinese team test out the system, apparently there're people who prefer the old "pick 3 elements" mechanic. So..... ~(o.o)~?

I find the idea of the picking 3 elements and 1 major element to be innovative and matches well with her character. I thought Patchouli was very interesting when she was released in DoTS.
Patchouli is the one week wizard and her hobby is to use spells dependant on which day of the week it is.

Using Invoker style spell pattern also sounds pretty cool. When you say Invoker, you mean the new one with 9 spells right?

An idea I have for Patchouli is that maybe change her ultimate accordingly to the day/night cycle. Day time, Royal Flare, night time Silent Selene. Royal Flare can do damage + burn afterdamage and Silent Selene silences.


Quote
Though I seriously hate them treating Silent Selene and Royal Flare like ultimates

I have to disagree. This is because they are ultimates. Patchouli uses this on her good day(EoSD extra) and is one of her ultimate cards in the fighting games.

Ran-Rii

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #154 on: November 29, 2012, 09:28:13 AM »
I find the idea of the picking 3 elements and 1 major element to be innovative and matches well with her character. I thought Patchouli was very interesting when she was released in DoTS.
Patchouli is the one week wizard and her hobby is to use spells dependant on which day of the week it is.

Using Invoker style spell pattern also sounds pretty cool. When you say Invoker, you mean the new one with 9 spells right?

An idea I have for Patchouli is that maybe change her ultimate accordingly to the day/night cycle. Day time, Royal Flare, night time Silent Selene. Royal Flare can do damage + burn afterdamage and Silent Selene silences.


I have to disagree. This is because they are ultimates. Patchouli uses this on her good day(EoSD extra) and is one of her ultimate cards in the fighting games.

But if there is a higher level, like Royal Diamond Ring...
Well, I tried suggesting her spells change depending on the weather, but...

Silent Selene, I think, should be a sort of stun/silence.
As for Royal Flare, Global Ultimate that deals high damage to enemy Touhous only.. And dispels fog of war, allowing sight to enemy Touhous.

Taking a look at invoker... using a certain "base spell" a certain number of times in a certain combination results in a spell being casted, huh. Looks cool.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 09:32:26 AM by Ran-Rii »

Dormio Ergo Sum

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #155 on: November 29, 2012, 09:34:05 AM »
 ::)

Since just posting that would probably constitute spamming, I'll just add that I absolutely abhorred the system for Patchouloli wherein you chose three elements to play with.

Pesco

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #156 on: November 29, 2012, 09:44:56 AM »
Touhou canon powers do not have to be strictly applied to fangames. Get over this idea and dev becomes a crapton easier.

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #157 on: November 29, 2012, 10:01:54 AM »
Touhou canon powers do not have to be strictly applied to fangames. Get over this idea and dev becomes a crapton easier.

Well, Patchouli's selling point is diversity in spells. Building her Invoker style [from what I read, I don't play DoTA], or in some style where basic spells like "Bury in Lake" and "Agni Radiance/Ring of Agni" constitute to synthesis spells would be just "right".

Though I think the problem is to what her Ultimate would be, some "choose an element, get Silent Selene/Royal Flare", something affected by weather, like "Scorching Sun/Sunny = Royal Flare, and Drizzle/Whatevernot = Silent Selene, and something else = Philosopher's Stone" would be interesting. Or changes according to health, with Royal Flare being some sort of high damage desperation attack on low health, and Silent Selene being a high utility, Ultimate grade-damage attack. Cause her ultimate isn't really decidable, with her having Royal Flare, Silent Selene, Philosopher's Stone and Royal Diamond Ring.

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #158 on: November 29, 2012, 10:08:24 AM »
Ultimates are spells that kill the enemy in one hit/swing a teamfight/make you unstoppable. All things that would encourage the enemy to run the heck away. No part of this definition cares about what the spell is called or how it has to make sense to anyone's perception of a character's background.

Dormio Ergo Sum

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #159 on: November 29, 2012, 10:15:16 AM »
Ultimates are spells that kill the enemy in one hit/swing a teamfight/make you unstoppable.
::)

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #160 on: November 29, 2012, 12:10:39 PM »
Ultimates are spells that kill the enemy in one hit/swing a teamfight/make you unstoppable. All things that would encourage the enemy to run the heck away. No part of this definition cares about what the spell is called or how it has to make sense to anyone's perception of a character's background.
All wrong. Giving it a special touch is what makes it better than just a win button.
Also, have you never seen ultimates that are pure utility?

Pesco

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #161 on: November 29, 2012, 12:24:13 PM »
You're not in much of a position to dispute when you admit that you don't play DotA. The teamfight swinging kinds of ultimates are the utility ones.

This special touch that you want on a skill is what? Show an example because in making skills, sometimes the only thing that's needed to make one skill different from another is just the spell animation. 

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #162 on: November 29, 2012, 12:42:20 PM »
You're not in much of a position to dispute when you admit that you don't play DotA. The teamfight swinging kinds of ultimates are the utility ones.

This special touch that you want on a skill is what? Show an example because in making skills, sometimes the only thing that's needed to make one skill different from another is just the spell animation.

And just cause I do not play a particular RTS I have no position to rebut. Well done.
For a start, not all ultimates are all about damage. What I have seen from your argument, is mostly talking about damage and one-hit kills. An ultimate can be a wall that completely stops an enemy, can also be an ultimate which applies heavy CCs, does not necessarily NEED damage. Heck, an ultimate that stuns the enemy for 7 seconds while dealing only around 150 damage is fine. So, there. Just cause I play LOL doesn't mean I do not understand the definitions, that you. RTS, RTS all the same.

Pesco

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #163 on: November 29, 2012, 12:55:40 PM »
Dunno if you've done your research but the fact that the first DotS was too much like LoL is the reason why it's getting remade. The background that your suggestions come from is exactly what we didn't like about the direction the game took.

Not all ultimates are about damage, I agree. DotA has several of those. As long as they are mechanically geared towards giving your hero a greater contribution ability, it can be a worthwhile ultimate.

You still haven't shown me what you meant by this special touch that a skill needs to have.

Dormio Ergo Sum

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #164 on: November 29, 2012, 01:01:46 PM »
I don't get the point of this entire argument. That is to say, I don't think that anything of value will be gained from continuing this particular conversation.
Like, what is either side trying to say? Pesco's just saying that the suggestions for Patchouloli's ult are disagreeable to him, no?
Then what is with this argument involving vague terms on what an ultimate ability should entail?

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #165 on: November 29, 2012, 01:20:54 PM »
Oh. Wait. Now I get where this argument is heading.
Sorry for the outburst earlier on.

I was simply saying, just giving it something special.
For example, if Patchouli had an Ultimate that kept changing between Silent Selene and Royal Flare depending on the weather, with different effects, it would give her additional diversity and options, yes? Also, it would make weather choosing and activation more strategic to go I'm sync with the effects.
At least that is what I think. Though I do apologize that I screwed up and did not understand you earlier on.

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #166 on: November 29, 2012, 01:32:07 PM »
Even if you wanted to give Patchouloli some lore-based flair, why would her abilities be affected by the weather?
That doesn't fit the aforementioned lore, you know.

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #167 on: November 29, 2012, 01:36:58 PM »
Even if you wanted to give Patchouloli some lore-based flair, why would her abilities be affected by the weather?
That doesn't fit the aforementioned lore, you know.

She is able to draw on surrounding elements, yes?
Thus for, say, Royal Flare, Patchouli draws on the element of the Sun to deliver a gigantic burst of fire, dealing damage, etc., etc.

At least that was what I was thinking. If the devs really do not have time, and think a fixed element selection would do, I am fine. Just saying.

In her lore, they say she is able to draw on the surroundings' elements, using very little magical energy to perform a powerful spell. So, would Scorching Sun count as a surrounding element that can be drawn on?

Dormio Ergo Sum

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #168 on: November 29, 2012, 01:45:25 PM »
But it's not the weather that affects her. ::)

Ran-Rii

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #169 on: November 29, 2012, 01:59:10 PM »
But it's not the weather that affects her. ::)

Buut she could steal draw power from that, right?
If she could draw on the surroundings' power, which would be filling the whole stage... which is a lot of that element she wants to draw on, theoretically, it would make her spells stronger with more element to draw power from, yes?

So, let's say, the default Ultimate skill is Silent Selene, which draws power from the moon (And sadly there is no "Imperishable Night/Full Moon" weather), and once there is Scorching Sun or Sunny weather, the Ultimate changes to Royal Flare?

Also, I suppose, balance the two Ultimates out, with each of them, although under 1 skill button, that changes skill with the weather. Give each ultimate a redeeming quality to use with different situations. That is what I am thinking, though the final decision still lies on Aph. I am just suggesting, that is all.

Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #170 on: November 29, 2012, 02:02:59 PM »
Ehh weather would more likely affect Tenshi than Patchouli given what she did during SWR. Patchouli just happens to love organizing and naming her spellcards according to the different elements represented in the days of the Japanese calendar week. Besides, she wouldn't be much of a magician if she could only cast Royal Flare when it's sunny. I mean, magic's supposed to be... magical. Like, "oh it's dark? Let me blind your entire world with this love-coloured beamu spam." The point of Patchouli is that she loves combining her spells, which is exactly what the Invoker mechanic from DotA does. With this mechanic, it's harder to cast spells since you have to know what elements to combine to form Royal Flare or Silent Selene or Royal Diamond Ring. It also makes it so that you have to plan which spell you wish to cast in advance because combining spells has a cooldown, so there's no possibility of casting Silent Selene immediately after Royal Flare. It's another way of balancing out the mechanic instead of the usual "increase mana cost" or "decrease damage" or "change debuff effect" solution.

Edit: I'm in no way suggesting that I don't want suggestions though, although they ought to be practical at least? (*ahem* Dat Cirno, wth? >.<). Even if some skills won't be used for the characters they're suggested for, the mechanic might be fun enough to revamp the skill and put it on another character.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 02:41:59 PM by ApharmdB »

Ran-Rii

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #171 on: November 29, 2012, 02:49:07 PM »
Ehh weather would more likely affect Tenshi than Patchouli given what she did during SWR. Patchouli just happens to love organizing and naming her spellcards according to the different elements represented in the days of the Japanese calendar week. Besides, she wouldn't be much of a magician if she could only cast Royal Flare when it's sunny. I mean, magic's supposed to be... magical. Like, "oh it's dark? Let me blind your entire world with this love-coloured beamu spam." The point of Patchouli is that she loves combining her spells, which is exactly what the Invoker mechanic from DotA does. With this mechanic, it's harder to cast spells since you have to know what elements to combine to form Royal Flare or Silent Selene or Royal Diamond Ring. It also makes it so that you have to plan which spell you wish to cast in advance because combining spells has a cooldown, so there's no possibility of casting Silent Selene immediately after Royal Flare. It's another way of balancing out the mechanic instead of the usual "increase mana cost" or "decrease damage" or "change debuff effect" solution.

Edit: I'm in no way suggesting that I don't want suggestions though, although they ought to be practical at least? (*ahem* Dat Cirno, wth? >.<). Even if some skills won't be used for the characters they're suggested for, the mechanic might be fun enough to revamp the skill and put it on another character.

Ah well, expected as much. Well, never mind, I will still be expecting your version of Patchouli, seems fun. (I'd imagine the elements have to be "pre-cast", and your Ultimate somehow uses the elements in a spell. Though, what elements can form the Sun and Moon I know not, even though I am well versed in the Chinese elements. Partly the reason I was so hyped up about making Patchouli's movesets.)

I'll see what I can suggest. It is heartening to see someone venture in a project. Least we can do is give them some ideas to help them a little. (I know very little of coding. Though ruby scripts I can handle.)

That Chiruno was probably made to complement her "Idiot" nature, with high strength, high powered spells but all of them with a catch. You talking about the one that kills herself, yes?

Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #172 on: November 29, 2012, 03:37:37 PM »
wait are we talking 29? spell invoker or the current invoker? this is very important

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #173 on: November 29, 2012, 03:52:06 PM »
Patchy has different ultimates depending on what day you play her
Monday = 1
Tuesday = 2


Okay jokes aside, feedback from my side says that Invoker!Patchy is a great idea because people don't like using her and only having 3 feasible, useful combinations and also because everyone says Moon Sign sucks.

Yes they much rather hotkey all the way to 20+ spell glory which I also like too

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #174 on: November 29, 2012, 04:21:37 PM »
That Chiruno was probably made to complement her "Idiot" nature, with high strength, high powered spells but all of them with a catch. You talking about the one that kills herself, yes?

Yes, but not because she can kill herself, but because the stats on the skills look way too high even with the downsides and well, I didn't think I'd find that a fun hero to play. That's subjective yes, and whether or not it'll actually work in a game has to be playtested, so unless I can think of other suitable designs that don't cannibalize Letty's role too much, I might just make that thing and see how it goes in the playtests. I've never run this idea by the Chinese team before. Hmm.

wait are we talking 29? spell invoker or the current invoker? this is very important

She has 16 spells allocated. I've made 7. None of those numbers are finalized because canonically she has a craptonne of spells. Maybe instead of combining elements to cast spells, players should be made to write out entire haikus in chat in order to cast them. In Japanese. :3

I wouldn't be surprised if the people who find the invoker-style mechanic better are the ones who play dota and the people who think otherwise don't play dota. Hmmmmmmm. Polling time.

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #175 on: November 29, 2012, 10:29:36 PM »
She has 16 spells allocated. I've made 7. None of those numbers are finalized because canonically she has a craptonne of spells. Maybe instead of combining elements to cast spells, players should be made to write out entire haikus in chat in order to cast them. In Japanese. :3

I wouldn't be surprised if the people who find the invoker-style mechanic better are the ones who play dota and the people who think otherwise don't play dota. Hmmmmmmm. Polling time.

But then again, what other mechanic do we have available for Patchouli other than "Pick Element", and "Cast some pre-spell, then create the spell you want, Invoker-style"?

I hope there's a user manual for her when she does come out. All those spell combinations....


Though I'd be very interested in whether Cirno's "Cold Divinity" spell be used. (Her PoFV LV 4 charge)

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #176 on: November 30, 2012, 07:34:17 AM »
At the end of the day we can really slap any name and animation on anything; I'd take good gameplay and uninspiring skill names over the reverse any day. Invoker Patchouli sounds fine to me.
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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #177 on: November 30, 2012, 09:33:36 AM »
@Invoker-Patchouli style play: Yes, Invoker in the game does have a spell list. You type -invokelist or something to see the list. For him, you usually just pick a style of play, like going with Extort and Wex as your two primary level ups or Wex and Quas as your two primary level ups. It depends on if you like Chaos Meteor or Tornado more.

Quote
But if there is a higher level, like Royal Diamond Ring...
Well, I tried suggesting her spells change depending on the weather, but...

About this, an ultimate is just a name and if it fits as one of her ultimates in lore that should be fine. Look at Reimu or Marisa's ultimates, they are Fantasy Seal and Master Spark respectively. Nether of them are their highest level spells. For Reimu it would be Musou Tensei(Fantasy Heaven, Dream Heaven or however it is called) and for Marisa, it would be Final Spark.
That means Tenshi doesn't necessarily need Scarlet Weather Rapture as her ultimate, it could be Earth Creation Press, or some other 4 to 5 card move. Same deal with any other character really.

Quote
At the end of the day we can really slap any name and animation on anything; I'd take good gameplay and uninspiring skill names over the reverse any day. Invoker Patchouli sounds fine to me.

I would like to see good gameplay as well as good lore design if possible. Something that makes you think, hey it seems like I am using Patchouli and not something that makes you think, this could be generic character B.

Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #178 on: December 01, 2012, 08:52:44 AM »
Hi >.< well, actually now I'm working with ApharmdB in the map, and now I'm importing my heroes to the aphar one, here i will put a list from the girls already imported and edit the post every time I add a new girl to the map. Until now the list is:

-Rumia
-Koakuma

However, i just started today, that's why only there are just a few

(I don't know if post the spells from the girls or just keep it in secret, what you think?)

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #179 on: December 04, 2012, 04:23:55 PM »
I'm late to the party and don't know much, so here's an idiot suggestion -

"Today I feel good, I'll show you something special..."

The specific Ultimate Patchy cast's could depend in some way on her maximum health.  That way players can game what type of Ulti they'd like (and switch it around mid-game) based on what items/buffs they currently have. 

I'd avoid using 'current health' because it'd change too much to plan. 
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