Power of the ladies: How do they work?

[Hatateru]

I've been wondering for a while now, how does Momiji's ability work? Her ability was listed as "Seeing a thousand ri ahead", which sounds pretty hyperbolic considering how far 1000 li is and how small Gensokyo actually is. On the other hand, ZUN stated that her ability was telegnosis in the SoPM interview, which is something that I find even more unlikely.

[Sagus]

She used Dream Sign "Duplex Barrier" in PCB before having even met Yukari, and Boundary "Duplex Danmaku Barrier" in Imperishable Night when acting alone as a boss. That's what made me think she had border manipulation.

I don't think creating barriers is the same as manipulating borders. She never does anything similar to Yukari's border manipulation, like her bringing random junk from around the world, or her "Border between Brain and Feet" spellcard, or those spellcards that run along the border of the screen.

I've been wondering for a while now, how does Momiji's ability work? Her ability was listed as "Seeing a thousand ri ahead", which sounds pretty hyperbolic considering how far 1000 li is and how small Gensokyo actually is. On the other hand, ZUN stated that her ability was telegnosis in the SoPM interview, which is something that I find even more unlikely.

I don't get why Gensokyo's size should affect her ability. Just because she wouldn't be able to see past the barrier doesn't mean she wouldn't be able to if there was no obstacles in place. We don't know how old she is, she could predate the Hakurei barrier after all. I also don't get why you'd think that her having telegnosis is somehow more unlikely.
Before SoPM, I simply thought that Momiji's vision was extremely sharp (like how a falcon can see a small rabbit in a wide field while flying above), but since she's been revealed to have telegnosis, it's actually simplier to explain. She just have a type of clairvoyance that allows her to see things far past the limits of her normal senses.

[Hatateru]

Welp I just found it pretty out of place that Momiji should be possessing telegnosis/clairvoyance. Like you, I used to think that Momiji simply has incredibly acute vision and is able to see great distances. I thought her clairvoyance meant she could see the future and such orz

But since that's not the case, it now seems clearer to me that her ability is simply not limited to having only sharp vision.

[Biakmon]

I'm not really sure if it appropriate for me to ask this here but anyway will that be possible for now on to whoever trying to explain the power of the ladies to either "highlight or bold" the name of the character(s) they are talking about just to make it a little bit more easier to classify/differentiate them.

I'm asking this because this thread is already 12 pg long of discussion and it will likely be more in the future so it start to a bit confusing to know whom exactly someone is/are talking about and the characters discussion cannot really be said to be in an particular order.

[ToyoRai]

Hmm, good idea. Added that to the first post with a bit of editing to the original rules.

[Starxsword]

I don't think creating barriers is the same as manipulating borders. She never does anything similar to Yukari's border manipulation, like her bringing random junk from around the world, or her "Border between Brain and Feet" spellcard, or those spellcards that run along the border of the screen.

While I don't think Reimu can manipulate borders exactly, she does know some stuff related to borders. For example, in Hopeless Masquerade, she can jump from one side of the screen to another. Or how when walking in a straight line, she can appear behind you. In that instance, she sort of warps the boundary around you so that going past a specific spot will end up behind you or something like that.

I certainly wouldn't say that Toyohime's ability is in any way similar to Reimu's "ability to float". Toyo's ability seems more similar to Yukari's gaps. Reimu's just allow her to become intangible.

Reimu's ability to float may or may not be related to her being able to become intangible. Those two are not necessarily related.

[Sagus]

While I don't think Reimu can manipulate borders exactly, she does know some stuff related to borders. For example, in Hopeless Masquerade, she can jump from one side of the screen to another. Or how when walking in a straight line, she can appear behind you. In that instance, she sort of warps the boundary around you so that going past a specific spot will end up behind you or something like that.

Yeah, I mentioned that. Maybe Yukari taught her those tricks.

Reimu's ability to float may or may not be related to her being able to become intangible. Those two are not necessarily related.

Yes, they are. Her "Fantasy Nature" spellcard is explicitly stated to be her floating away from reality, both by Marisa in her book and in the spellcards' commentary ("With Reimu's ability to float, she floats from everything in reality and becomes invincible").

[Starxsword]

Yeah, I mentioned that. Maybe Yukari taught her those tricks.

That's possible. Reimu does always have warping abilities even during Immaterial and Missing Power. I tend to think of it as part of her skill set. Being able to use barriers probably allows her to do that.
Much like Yukari, who also uses barriers a lot.

Yes, they are. Her "Fantasy Nature" spellcard is explicitly stated to be her floating away from reality, both by Marisa in her book and in the spellcards' commentary ("With Reimu's ability to float, she floats from everything in reality and becomes invincible").

The Japanese text only has one instance of "fly" for Reimu's Imperishable Night Last Word.
As for Marisa's Grimoire, Marisa never once mentioned that it was related to her ability to fly.
Neither of these mention that her ability to float has anything to do with her being able to float away from reality.
While it is possible that her ability to float allows her to float from reality, that is not necessarily the case. It can just be another ability she is born with.

Here's the text for reference. The only thing you need to worry about is the second sentence starting with Reimu wa...
It says something along the lines of Reimu floats into the air and becomes invincible.
It does not say with her ability to float.

色々と究極奥義。霊夢はありとあらゆるものから宙に浮き無敵となる。
もしこれが遊び（時間制限付き）でなければ、誰も勝つ事が出来ない。

[Drake]

One thing worthy of note is that Gensou Tensei's IN description is the only instance I know where ZUN uses 宙に浮く instead of 空を飛ぶ; if he used the latter instead, it would very likely be talking about her usual listed ability. I do think this is a conscious decision to reference her ability in some manner, but either he took care not to say it's her stated ability, or he just used it because ありとあらゆるものから空を飛き doesn't make any sense.

[dunaway5]

Considering the fact that everyone in Gensokyo can apparently fly, it seems more likely that the ability to fly is just a natural part of being in Gensokyo, like an ambient magical effect or something, and has nothing to do with any of their other abilities.

[Drake]

Considering the fact that everyone in Gensokyo can apparently fly

Not really. It might be an ability that can be obtained relatively easily, but besides a few exceptions like Mokou and Sakuya, the humans that can fly have pretty good reasons. The humans in the human village very probably can't fly.

[ToyoRai]

Reimu couldn't originally fly if PC-98 would be taken into consideration. She walked in the first game and used Genki to fly in the rest. Heck, if we look at them, Rikako cannot fly on her own. She has to use a jetpack to fly.

[monhan]

And Nitori flies with a copter, nah she still floats when knocked out.

If we go by the fighting games, flying costs spirits. So there must be some magic working on that.

Anyway, why do you guys think barrier technique is the same as border manipulation? I think Yukari's is a bit more than just "barrier".

[Drake]

Barrier and border/boundary are separate terms. When talking about boundaries, it's 境界, often shortened to 境 (often what we'd call border). Barriers are 結界, although in many contexts they are used interchangeably. What people often call the "Hakurei Border", in particular, should really be Barrier (博麗大結界). But the area at the edge of Gensokyo itself is indeed called the border (境), which is where Yukari's house and the Hakurei Shrine are located. The distinction is basically region versus a separator.

Now, Reimu generally is associated with the term barrier. She does have Boundary "Duplex Danmaku Barrier" (境界「二重弾幕結界」) which uses both terms in the same name, but on Hard and Lunatic the identifier changes back to Great Barrier (大結界). While the former uses the same "boundary" that we talk about Yukari manipulating, using the term here doesn't really mean that Reimu is doing any sort of border manipulation. Rather, she casts barriers, and it happens that with this card there is a boundary there. Barriers are Reimu's thing. Her wrapping around and changing spaces like that are all said to be done with barriers. But, you could say that these barriers have boundaries.

[monhan]

Agreed. It might be that ZUN kinda mixed 'em up. Though I guess it's common to treat barriers and boundaries as the same thing, so there's that.

A question, whose desires that Miko can't read aside from Koishi's? Didn't Miko have trouble analyzing those who inherently lack one or more of the ten desires, such as half-phantoms like Youmu. Wouldn't she also have a hard time against saints, like Kasen or Byakuren(who got 8 down, if they are the same thing)?

[Starxsword]

Agreed. It might be that ZUN kinda mixed 'em up. Though I guess it's common to treat barriers and boundaries as the same thing, so there's that.

Well, they are kind of similar. It is kind of like cause and effect, while these two things are distinct, it is often hard to tell the cause from the effect. Reimu being able to warp around the opponent can be seen has boundary manipulation, as what is being observed is essentially a boundary in which going forward will cause her to end up behind you. However, what she is doing is really creating barriers to cause this.

Wouldn't she also have a hard time against saints, like Kasen or Byakuren(who got 8 down, if they are the same thing)?

I'm not quite sure if Miko would have a hard time reading either Kasen or Byakuren. I don't think either of them are missing any of the ten desires.
Miko would have an extremely hard time reading Yuyuko.

[TrueShadow]

Not really. It might be an ability that can be obtained relatively easily, but besides a few exceptions like Mokou and Sakuya, the humans that can fly have pretty good reasons. The humans in the human village very probably can't fly.

It's not like the girls themselves fly that often anyway, outside of incident-mode. We very rarely see them flying in the manga, and when they do it's usually because of some sort of an incident. Even if the villagers can fly, they don't seem to have any reason to actually do.

[monhan]

I'm not quite sure if Miko would have a hard time reading either Kasen or Byakuren. I don't think either of them are missing any of the ten desires.
Miko would have an extremely hard time reading Yuyuko.

Well, I'd like to explain but because Buddhist teachings and whatnot is so vast and confusing, first I'd like you to be clear on "what you think are the Ten Desires". I've searched but still not sure what those are. Because depending on what they really are, it can either be quick or took forever. It would be great if those knowledgeable in the subject can help explaining this.
I mean really, if being a hermit or saint is to get rid of worldly desires, I'd be surprised if they didn't miss any, especially Byakuren. Besides, Miko doesn't show any signs of being able to read her desires in both SoPM and HM. If she's supposed to be Miko's rival in the setting, it'd be weird if she doesn't have anything to counter Miko.

And if you said being dead makes you lose those desires then maybe you have an idea about it, so please explain it first.

If you want to go and read it, I suggest to just read these for starters(it's wiki, but these could help you get the basic idea):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavacakra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parami
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmacakra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha
http://www.nst.org/articles/basics-of-study/earthly-desires-the-root-of-unhappiness/

[Starxsword]

We very rarely see them flying in the manga, and when they do it's usually because of some sort of an incident. Even if the villagers can fly, they don't seem to have any reason to actually do.

It most likely takes a lot of effort to fly. We see Reimu and Marisa fly from time to time, but they usually walk. And I disagree, most villagers most likely cannot fly.

@Ten Desires:
I don't know what the ten desires are. I have an idea, but don't know them. Greed, life, death are 3 of the ten desires that we were given information about.

I mean really, if being a hermit or saint is to get rid of worldly desires, I'd be surprised if they didn't miss any, especially Byakuren. Besides, Miko doesn't show any signs of being able to read her desires in both SoPM and HM. If she's supposed to be Miko's rival in the setting, it'd be weird if she doesn't have anything to counter Miko.

Neither Byakuren nor Kasen are fully fledge hermits. So, I don't see how they would have gotten rid of any of their desires. Though I guess it is possible that they have done enough hermit like stuff to be enlightened.
I think the idea of needing a counter is over thinking it, the advantage Miko has is not all that significant.

For example, let's say Byakuren desires peace between Youkai and humans. How would Miko take advantage even if she knows this?
Or another example, Byakuren wants Kyouko and Mystia to stop the concert. How would Miko take advantage knowing this?
Or say, Byakuren wants to beat up Miko.

And if you said being dead makes you lose those desires then maybe you have an idea about it, so please explain it first.

No, being dead doesn't make you lose those desires. For Youmu, it was because she is lacking 2. We know two of the ten desires to be:
Miko: From among the ten that I expected, your attachment to life and your envy of death are...
I mentioned Yuyuko specifically, not dead characters in general. Yuyuko is able to control her temperament, which would imply that she is somewhat ascended.

[Malyszeq]

It's a bit different with Miko. Miko's ability is not only hearing the ten desires but, hearing and understanding them simultaneously which gives her perfect insight into one's past, present and future.

[Starxsword]

Where did you come up with that? I don't believe Miko's abilities were ever mentioned to do such.
What Miko has is just really good perception, thanks to her ability.

The only person with perfect insight into a person's past and present is Eiki and that is because she knows the circumstances and reason in which why you have committed your crime.

[Malyszeq]

Reimu scenario in TD, Miko mentions something about that:

"During my long sleep, I acquired the power of faith, and now,
I can hear humans' desires.

Desire tells of a human's true character.

To understand the ten desires of a human
is to know them fully.

In the past, the present...
And the future...

Next, you say this: "

Furthermore, Marisa's scenario:

"To one such as I, who has seen each of your ten desires,
your past and your future are visible.

You will defeat me, and then
search this mausoleum. "

Miko mentions that the mausoleum is something like Gensokyo's Akashic Records. A place known as Akashic Records is a theosophical term meaning a compendium of mystical and esoterical knowledge about people, as far as definition is concerned.

"The akashic record is like an immense photographic film, registering all the desires and earth experiences of our planet. Those who perceive it will see pictured thereon: The life experiences of every human being since time began, the reactions to experience of the entire animal kingdom, the aggregation of the thought-forms of a karmic nature (based on desire) of every human unit throughout time. Herein lies the great deception of the records. Only a trained occultist can distinguish between actual experience and those astral pictures created by imagination and keen desire." - "Light of the Soul on The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali - Book 3 - Union achieved and its Results" by Alice A. Bailey.

[Starxsword]

But that is not as relevant, since Miko's powers are known to fail, in the case of Youmu. Also, this is their banter dialogue, so some exaggerations happen. What you do see is that in Symposium of Mysticism, her powers seem to work, but not nearly to the extent that you see in her dialogue in Ten Desires. For instance, you know Miko perceives that Reimu's desire is to end the Symposium peacefully.

[TrueShadow]

My interpretation is that Miko doesn't really know a person's past-present-future directly, but she's just that perceptive of people that by knowing their desires, she can pretty much guess very accurately about everyhing else.

Her ability allows her to collect desires i.e. raw data. It's her perceptive mind that allows processing of the raw data into something more meaningful i.e. everything else about said person.

She fails in Youmu's case because Miko is used to hearing human desires. Youmu isn't human.

[Prime32]

She fails in Youmu's case because Miko is used to hearing human desires. Youmu isn't human.

Specifically, Youmu's half-dead state means that her subconscious mind neither fears nor seeks death. Both of those desires are normally woven pretty tightly into the human psyche, meaning that even if Youmu's other desires are pretty normal, they don't combine into a personality in the same way. Miko can't see the overall personality, only figure it out from its components, so her reading of Youmu ends up wrong.