Author Topic: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)  (Read 4364 times)

Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« on: May 19, 2011, 08:09:17 PM »
Hi

I'm looking for advice with PoFV, mostly with Extra Mode. I'm fairly new to the Touhou games (which might be part of my problem), and other than this, I've played EoSD (managed to 1cc easy once with ReimuA, and can consistently get to stage 5 on easy without too much trouble. Normal mode murders me though...) and PCB (I can't even get close to 1ccing easy, sadly.I can get about as far as stage 4, usually up to the boss). With PoFV, I managed to 1cc a good half of the characters in story mode on easy, but Extra Mode brutalises me, to the point I struggle to consistently make it past stage 2. I tried a few runs on story mode on normal (I've tried it with Reimu and Youmu), and can't make it the final stage without 1 continue, and I can't come close to beating it.

I've uploaded a few replays (1 of story mode with Yuka, and the other 4 are various attempts at extra mode) in case I'm doing something very stupid while playing. Given my lack of success on both extra and story normal, I'm guessing I am.
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=13802 - Extra Mode 1
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=13803 - Extra Mode 2
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=13804 - Extra Mode 3
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=13805 - Extra Mode 4
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=13801 - Story Mode Easy - Yuka

I'd be grateful for any help and/or advice anyone could throw my way.


XephyrEnigma

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Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2011, 08:19:05 PM »
The only things i can tell you, are play more. Play MUCH more, and dont be afraid to step up to normal, even if you arent ready. Also, watch your replays and learn from your mistakes.
Iced-Fairy: "Danmaku is like soccer, except instead of hooligans you get fairies and the riot is before the game." 

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Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2011, 09:19:06 PM »
PoFV is great for buffing your raw dodging.  First off, take a look at Sapz' topic on Touhou general tips if you haven't already done so.  There's some great advice in there.  After that, go straight to Lunatic on PoFV, and practice lots, it'll help a ton.  Maybe netplay some friends for fun too (via Adonis).  For the other games, do all your practicing on Normal/Hard.  Easy is fine and all, but the bullets are way too sparse for the first 3/4 of the game to really help you learn how to read/dodge stuff.  Play on whatever the highest difficulty is where you can still make some sort of sense of what's going on, and when you go back to easy, it'll be... Well, easy.

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Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2011, 06:33:58 AM »
Yes. I went through that as well. Practice! It was a good 2 or 3 months before I beat EoSD normal. (at which that was the only Touhou game I had) It can take a little bit, but if you keep to it, you'll get better. Touhou isn't a game that you can necessarily be good at right when you start.
Spoiler:
Just don't include or think about one friend I had from high school who beat EoSD lunatic with default lives in two weeks. Idk how he did it.
You'll get better, don't worry.
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Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2011, 12:59:19 PM »
Spoiler:
Just don't include or think about one friend I had from high school who beat EoSD lunatic with default lives in two weeks. Idk how he did it.
I have a strong feeling he'd already played a lot of shmups beforehand.  Once you've adjusted to and can 1cc Cave games (or shmups of a similar difficulty level) on default difficulty, making a switch over to Touhou Lunatic should be relatively easy.  Speaking of Cave, I've been meaning to play more EspGaluda...

Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2011, 04:15:42 PM »
Read Main articles: Gameplay, Strategy
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Flower_View

It is a lot to chew trough, but there are some very useful tips

Some suggestions:
1)Tiniest bullets can be cleared by exploding a fairy/spirit near them, so sometimes it might be good to let the fairys survive until they are near many tiny bullets and then shoot them.
2)Spirits can be made much weaker by capturing them into the capturing area. For komachi the capturing area gets smaller, so just clicking and releasing the focus button(shift) captures all spirits
3)Getting 100k,300k and 500k spell points summons a boss
4)Level 2 spells can be used to generate a lot of spell points and counter whatever the game throws at you by clear the field, so using level 4 spell (boss summoning) can be a waste
5)Chaining greatly increases spell point gain. Constantly shooting restarts your combo because it starts another chain reaction. Try not to shoot until all fairys in previous explosion chain reaction are dead (staying alive is more important ofcourse and you also might miss another really great chaining opportunity).
6)Don't let the spell point combo timer reset
7)Watch related replays from other people who are better then you and your own replays
8)As said before, practice either on lunatic or hard difficulty

Good luck. Extra stage is really difficult and komachi is not the one of the easiest characters to play with.
I'd like to submit a random replay, but each time i finish the game it ends with an error lol

Also don't start with extra lives
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 04:25:31 PM by touhoumaniac »

Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2011, 09:28:24 PM »
Ok, thanks for all the advice guys, much appreciated :) I've had a read through of Sapz' topic (more than once), so I'll see how much of that I can apply. It does strike me that streaming isn't as effective in PoFV as it might be in other games, given I never seem to have the room...

Just a couple of things. Am I better off practicing in story mode or match mode, or does it not really matter. I've noticed that story mode tends to make the first 5 or so characters you encounter somewhat easier, even on lunatic. Also, I'd love to play some friends on netplay, but I don't know anyone else with the game. I'm trying to get one of my friends interested, but I think I scared him with a few videos lunatic runs on EoSD and PCB off youtube...

Also touhoumaniac, just to clarify, you said at the end not to start with extra lives. I'm guessing you mean on story mode for that, since I didn't think it was possible to start with extra lives on extra mode...

Anyway, I managed to drag myself to stage 6 of extra mode earlier, so I think I'm starting to do something right. Just a pity I can't handle Marisa all that well. At least it wasn't Aya though...


XephyrEnigma

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Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2011, 10:22:38 PM »
Use extra lives in story mode if you cant do it without them yet. You just lose any post match bonuses.
Iced-Fairy: "Danmaku is like soccer, except instead of hooligans you get fairies and the riot is before the game." 

My YouTube channel where I often screw about - Latest Upload: IN Border Team Easy Clear

Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2011, 01:21:56 AM »
Just a couple of things. Am I better off practicing in story mode or match mode, or does it not really matter. I've noticed that story mode tends to make the first 5 or so characters you encounter somewhat easier, even on lunatic. Also, I'd love to play some friends on netplay, but I don't know anyone else with the game. I'm trying to get one of my friends interested, but I think I scared him with a few videos lunatic runs on EoSD and PCB off youtube...
Match is probably easier since you don't play gimped AIs for the first rounds, but you might enjoy story mode more.  Also, if you can't get any irl friends to play with you, I'm sure some people here would be more than willing to.  Ask around in #shrinemaiden or something.

Use extra lives in story mode if you cant do it without them yet. You just lose any post match bonuses.
Iirc the extra score from playing with default lives can actually give you more lives in the end for PoFV

XephyrEnigma

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Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2011, 01:26:26 AM »
I only seem to gain one life in story mode.... the tradeoff seems better to me. But I've stopped using them myself.
Iced-Fairy: "Danmaku is like soccer, except instead of hooligans you get fairies and the riot is before the game." 

My YouTube channel where I often screw about - Latest Upload: IN Border Team Easy Clear

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Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2011, 02:03:45 AM »
6)Don't let the spell point combo timer reset
Of course, if you think you can't make it to 300k/500k, you can just reset and get another 100k (instead of 200k) for another boss counter/summon.


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Lepetit89

  • Deranged Collector
Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2011, 08:27:13 PM »
Other question since there's a PoFV topic right here - how does the AI work exactly?
Reason I'm wondering is that I'm currently being pretty much curbstomped by Shikieiki all the time trying to 1CC the game on Lunatic with the occasional "getting her to her last shred of health", which results in me playing defensively and using my spells exclusively to clear bullets around me when the need arises. This does, of course, also mean offense at the same time. However, I'm wondering if firing in an additional spell at certain times can possibly coerce the AI into giving up and letting itself get hit since I highly doubt that, in order to win, I'd have to force the AI into situations in which it is physically impossible for it to dodge.

Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2011, 01:34:44 AM »
re: lunatic...
As far as I can tell from watching my replays and reading a bit, Shiki (and likely all characters, for that matter) dies at set times.  Dies once at one minute and again at two.  Not sure when she dies next as I've only beaten her on lunatic with hax characters (Aya, Medicine, Marisa), so I get a lucky death after that and it's game.  Also, every time you lose, the timer from two minutes is reduced by about ten seconds; so after three losses she'll die a second time around 1:30.  If that's a ratio, after three losses I'd think that I'd be able to watch her burn at 2:15 (assuming her third death is at three minutes), but it's either not a ratio or she dies a third time later than three minutes since I've made it past 2:15 with three losses and she's still lecturing.

I think offense is an illusion in PoFV when playing against the computer (outside of extra but then again they just run through bullets on extra).  They're going to die when they die, and the only way they might not is if you aren't shooting anything.  And even then they have a penchant for suicide.  Edit: in this way I think the waiting strategy in the next paragraph will be effective on lunatic, but I haven't been on my game in a while so each time I've tried this I blew it too soon to yield meaningful results.


re: extra...
The easiest way to beat difficult characters on extra is to only shoot to keep the timer ticking down.  If you don't shoot anything, the computer most often does not use any spells.  So, if you only pick off the last fairy in a line (avoiding starting any chains, cancelling any bullets, or destroying any spirits) and repeat that each time the timer stops counting down again, you can get the timer down to zero or at least close to zero; at this point all you have to do is fire for a few seconds and the computer finds a convenient bullet.  I'm not completely sure on this last point (a little rusty on pofv), but I think even if the computer leads off with a spell, if you don't fire and simply dodge it then it won't fire off another one.  Again, usually.

My strategy against Shiki in particular is to go balls-out the first round to build up my spell meter to level 4, and after I lose I go with the waiting game.  Still end up having a half minute or so of intense play, but it's much better than dealing with a full timer.

Of course, this waiting strategy should only be used when you have to since it's a score-killer and hence an extra-life killer.


misc...
fwiw: I've never had any luck with that stupid 'let the screen clear of bullets' strategy.  If you're good enough to survive the walls that result (late in a match) from a lack of bullet-cancelling, you don't need to stop shooting to begin with.  Dodge as much as you can and when things are intense keep building your spell meter and firing off level one spells; that way when things get too heavy you're already partway to a level two (fairy) spell.

Also, for Shiki: macrododge.  You aren't going to make it through some of those barrages without immense luck, so use the entire screen.  It is in this way that PoFV forced me to cheat on my micrododging lover and made me a better shmupper.

Also also, streaming is only useful with Aya.  Just watch the walls.  Edit: and I guess it works for a few other things like one of Youmu's dragon attacks, but it's still not a helpful tactic for most of the game.


Maybe none of that is new (I know I've read a couple of these points before but I'm not sure where), but I recall learning a good bit of it the hard way so hopefully this is not just a rehash of what everyone already knows.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 01:51:04 AM by K.B. »
eb: there should be a shmup that is sort of like podd minus the versus shit
eb: you go dodging semirandom things then it goes WARNING GET OUT OF THE WAY MOTHERFUCKER and you get a shitstorm
KB: and there is no way out of the way
eb: the way is through

Lepetit89

  • Deranged Collector
Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2011, 07:26:54 PM »
re: lunatic...
As far as I can tell from watching my replays and reading a bit, Shiki (and likely all characters, for that matter) dies at set times.  Dies once at one minute and again at two.  Not sure when she dies next as I've only beaten her on lunatic with hax characters (Aya, Medicine, Marisa), so I get a lucky death after that and it's game.  Also, every time you lose, the timer from two minutes is reduced by about ten seconds; so after three losses she'll die a second time around 1:30.  If that's a ratio, after three losses I'd think that I'd be able to watch her burn at 2:15 (assuming her third death is at three minutes), but it's either not a ratio or she dies a third time later than three minutes since I've made it past 2:15 with three losses and she's still lecturing.

I think offense is an illusion in PoFV when playing against the computer (outside of extra but then again they just run through bullets on extra).  They're going to die when they die, and the only way they might not is if you aren't shooting anything.  And even then they have a penchant for suicide.  Edit: in this way I think the waiting strategy in the next paragraph will be effective on lunatic, but I haven't been on my game in a while so each time I've tried this I blew it too soon to yield meaningful results.

Seems to match up with my experience using Reimu on Lunatic. Managed to clear the game already, but my experience seems to be quite similiar to yours. I'm not 100% sure if getting hit at certain times applies to all characters since I recall some  cases in which some opponents got hit extremely early in the game, but just didn't bother letting themselves get hit afterwards. I blamed it on psychological warfare to make it sound cool, wanting me to let down my guard etc., but in the end they wound up surviving as long as they regularly do, so it probably doesn't matter anyway. Not sure if I might be mistaken, though; could have been a Round 2 AI.

Quote
My strategy against Shiki in particular is to go balls-out the first round to build up my spell meter to level 4, and after I lose I go with the waiting game.  Still end up having a half minute or so of intense play, but it's much better than dealing with a full timer.

Agreed, personally, I couldn't pull off two minutes against a Round 1-Shiki with a full life bar, let alone half an orb.

Quote
misc...
fwiw: I've never had any luck with that stupid 'let the screen clear of bullets' strategy.  If you're good enough to survive the walls that result (late in a match) from a lack of bullet-cancelling, you don't need to stop shooting to begin with.  Dodge as much as you can and when things are intense keep building your spell meter and firing off level one spells; that way when things get too heavy you're already partway to a level two (fairy) spell.

Also agreed, once you're stuck in that circle of shooting fairies to clear the screen of bullets, I don't think there's any way to get out of it. Occasionally, the screen will be somewhat clear of bullets for surprisingly long amounts of time, but since that's the exact situation in which you don't need things to cool down, there's hardly any use to get out of that.

Quote
Also, for Shiki: macrododge.  You aren't going to make it through some of those barrages without immense luck, so use the entire screen.  It is in this way that PoFV forced me to cheat on my micrododging lover and made me a better shmupper.

Also also, streaming is only useful with Aya.  Just watch the walls.  Edit: and I guess it works for a few other things like one of Youmu's dragon attacks, but it's still not a helpful tactic for most of the game.

Maybe none of that is new (I know I've read a couple of these points before but I'm not sure where), but I recall learning a good bit of it the hard way so hopefully this is not just a rehash of what everyone already knows.

Again, agreed. More often than not, there's way too much pressure if you stay at the bottom of the screen. Furthermore, firing of spells from a higher position usually lets you clear more bullets, resulting in more spells if I'm not mistaken, assuming that escaping to the top doesn't let you entirely avoid a thick barrage to begin with. Thought this also worked particularly well on Komachi, who I also had a fairly hard time with.
Still, Shiki's a real killer, she absolutely destroys me in Round 1, managed to bring her down to her last sliver of health quite a few times in Round 2, but my actual win was in Round 3 at ~1:50. There's quite a bit of luck involved, no doubt, though I really hated finding a path through a bunch of her yellow rods (or whatever they are), only to be destroyed by a random bullet that was somewhere amidst them.

Always had the most fun with Aya, though, since, as you said, streaming actually lets you control the battle. Only battle I could actually win in Round 1 after Stage 6.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 07:30:46 AM by Lepetit89 »

Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2011, 08:23:59 PM »
re: lunatic...
As far as I can tell from watching my replays and reading a bit, Shiki (and likely all characters, for that matter) dies at set times.  Dies once at one minute and again at two.  Not sure when she dies next as I've only beaten her on lunatic with hax characters (Aya, Medicine, Marisa), so I get a lucky death after that and it's game.
I have a replay of her dying (completely, not just taking a hit) in 61 seconds here, with the first hit around 40 seconds (level 2 spell+poison mist).  I think it's safe to assume it's just hax dodging+low bullet density in the early match that makes that one minute rule against her.

Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2011, 11:53:29 PM »
Can't move = can't dodge.
Furthermore, firing of spells from a higher position usually lets you clear more bullets, resulting in more spells if I'm not mistaken, assuming that escaping to the top let's you entirely avoid a thick barrage to begin with.
Yep, bullet cancelling fills the guage.  I've gotten in the habit of running up the screen right before and as I release a spell, but this can backfire.  Definitely a good point to keep in mind though, not only for refilling but also for giving yourself more breathing room once the spell is done cancelling bullets.

I dunno about "escaping" to the top though haha.  But if you mean not hugging the bottom, using the vertical as the primary means to dodge some attacks, and running a third the way or even (on rare occassions) halfway up the screen to refocus the enemy's next attack, then agreed.  Otherwise you're a braver maiden than I.

Quote
Thought this also worked particularly well on Komachi, who I also had a fairly hard time with.
Against her dragon, you mean?  I guess, but late-game there're so many coins I'm mostly horizontal, so when she pukes that attack I usually don't have room so I level-two it.  I'll keep it in mind for next playthroughs since I usually die once against her and I'm up for trying something new.
eb: there should be a shmup that is sort of like podd minus the versus shit
eb: you go dodging semirandom things then it goes WARNING GET OUT OF THE WAY MOTHERFUCKER and you get a shitstorm
KB: and there is no way out of the way
eb: the way is through

Lepetit89

  • Deranged Collector
Re: Looking for help with PoFV (mainly Extra Mode)
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2011, 07:54:52 AM »


I dunno about "escaping" to the top though haha.  But if you mean not hugging the bottom, using the vertical as the primary means to dodge some attacks, and running a third the way or even (on rare occassions) halfway up the screen to refocus the enemy's next attack, then agreed.  Otherwise you're a braver maiden than I.

Blasted typos. Regardless, no, I'm dumb, but going up that far is probably suicide in most of the cases. Rather referring to one of those cases in which Shiki launches one of her fan-shaped barrages. Slightly above the middle is sufficient sometimes, but it's somewhat rare. Furthermore, if there's no enemies nearby you'll have to launch a spell anyway, but I guess it can buy you some time.