Author Topic: Something I just noticed (spellcard difficulty)  (Read 3609 times)

Something I just noticed (spellcard difficulty)
« on: April 12, 2015, 03:14:04 PM »
So, I know that difficulty is inherently subjective and what follows is only my opinion. Still, I'd be interested to hear whether other people share this opinion or differ from it. Also, the only Touhou games I've played so far are PCB and MoF (and only on Easy and Normal); it would be interesting to hear how the other games and difficulties compare in this respect.

In nearly every boss fight in these two games, the second-last spellcard is the most difficult.

There are some exceptions:

Letty -- Only two cards, the second one is harder.
Yuyuko -- Depends on whether "Resurrection Butterfly" is considered an integral part of the fight. If you consider it a post-battle extra, then she fits the rule.
Hina -- Very unusually, her first card is the hardest.
Nitori -- Last card is the hardest. I know that on Lunatic, her midboss card is considered the hardest, making her another weird exception.

So, far more bosses that fit the rule than do not; and there are no bosses (in these two games) with at least three spellcards whose final card is consistently the hardest across all difficulties. Is this a genuine pattern, or just me being strange?

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Re: Something I just noticed (spellcard difficulty)
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2015, 06:15:31 PM »
It's a reflection of what you currently find difficult.  As you get more experienced and play more games/difficulties, you'll find that this pattern doesn't hold.

For instance, the way Chen flies in her second-to-last spell card is static.  Once you know how she moves, you only really need to dodge one wave of dot bullets.  On the other hand, her first spell has lots of weird angles and her last spell is random spam.  Another example is Hina; all of her boss spells are aimed patterns (so you basically dodge them the same way every time) except her last one, which gets a lot more painful on Hard and Lunatic.

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Re: Something I just noticed (spellcard difficulty)
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2015, 08:23:23 PM »
I think in general, ZUN doesn't make an effort to make boss final spells particularly difficult, aside from the game's final spell and final Extra spell (even then, those tend to be mainly about gradual build-up through multiple phases). They may have more health than the others though, at least from stage 4 or so onward.

In my opinion, the games you chose aren't the best examples of difficulty balance either. PCB (and the PC-98 games except PoDD) seem to have less change between difficulty levels-- for example, Yuyuko's 5th spell (false final) is up there with Mountain of Faith Easy for most difficult Easy spell in the series, while her 4th is quite simple on all difficulties, and the battle in general is unusually easy for Lunatic (the stage portion's often considered the hardest part of the stage).

Meanwhile, Kanako has a rather chaotically varying difficulty on any setting (e.g. 5th spell Easy, 3rd spell Normal are harder than one difficulty above; and on the other end 1st spell Lunatic is still simple streaming).
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 08:35:19 PM by Karisa »

Re: Something I just noticed (spellcard difficulty)
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2015, 08:34:28 PM »
Thanks for the responses :)

Oh, and I just realised I was wrong about which card is Chen's second-to-last; her actual last card is so easy I forgot it exists ;)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 09:50:53 PM by Mikuru »

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Re: Something I just noticed (spellcard difficulty)
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2015, 12:02:36 AM »
It's been a long time since I've actively played on a mode other than Lunatic, so I can't really provide my views on how cards tend to be ordered there in terms of difficulty. But ZUN's "balance" in general throughout the series has been far from perfect, honestly. I don't know much about how ZUN codes the amount and speed of bullets to be fired across each difficulty, i.e., if the games use something akin to a rank multiplier or if he pays more attention to individual attacks than that. However they're coded, it still ends up causing some weird jumps in difficulty from pretty much any perspective, not just with a boss' attacks. There are many instances of a stage other than Stage 6 being the hardest in the game. Sometimes the difficulty will go down midway through the game before going back up again. As the OP alluded to, a boss' attacks often fluctuate in difficulty, sometimes wildly. But there are also instances of attacks either becoming easier or otherwise not changing in terms of "function" on higher difficulties, sometimes because the bullets are moving faster (sticking with MoF, Source of Rains is a good example). It's not something I think there's a real pattern to, it's just how ZUN wanted the progression of the game to go in terms of the styles of the characters or environment, but the general unevenness of things does become noticeable after a while.
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Re: Something I just noticed (spellcard difficulty)
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2015, 01:00:45 AM »
It's not something I think there's a real pattern to, it's just how ZUN wanted the progression of the game to go in terms of the styles of the characters or environment, but the general unevenness of things does become noticeable after a while.

I think this is the core of it right here. ZUN has a story to tell, and stories have ebbs and flows that don't follow a strict upward incline. The spells and non-spells are a part of the story. He could code them in a more straight-forward way, but doesn't.

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Re: Something I just noticed (spellcard difficulty)
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2015, 04:21:34 AM »
Thanks for the responses :)

Oh, and I just realised I was wrong about which card is Chen's second-to-last; her actual last card is so easy I forgot it exists ;)
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Re: Something I just noticed (spellcard difficulty)
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2015, 05:44:21 AM »
If and when you rank up to Hard and Lunatic you'll regret saying that

Speaking from personal experience, Konjin of the Demon's Gate is still her easiest spellcard on hard. It isn't trivial but it's still easy.

Kimontonkou, while I have no experience with it personally, does look very difficult though. That density.

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Re: Something I just noticed (spellcard difficulty)
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2015, 05:53:44 AM »
Oh, nevermind about Hard mode, I was thinking of it as similar to Kimontonkou. She doesn't even move during Konjin, which probably makes it the easiest relative to difficulty, actually.

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Re: Something I just noticed (spellcard difficulty)
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2015, 08:33:37 PM »
Oh, nevermind about Hard mode, I was thinking of it as similar to Kimontonkou. She doesn't even move during Konjin, which probably makes it the easiest relative to difficulty, actually.

Honestly, I've never understood why everyone finds Kimontonkou so hard. Unless I'm playing as SakuyaB I've always had much more trouble with Pentagram Crest and Phoenix Spread Wings.

As for the original topic, I just don't think that's true. In PCB I'd say the hardest spell is the first more often than not, for Chen, Alice, Prismrivers and Youmu. For MoF the second to last is typically their easiest IMO, for Minoriko, Hina and Nitori. Sanae's and Kanako's aren't too bad, but I will give you Illusory Dominance.
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Re: Something I just noticed (spellcard difficulty)
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2015, 08:55:59 PM »
Honestly, I've never understood why everyone finds Kimontonkou so hard. Unless I'm playing as SakuyaB I've always had much more trouble with Pentagram Crest and Phoenix Spread Wings.
Maybe this is shot-type-specific, but MarisaA's shots end up causing some of the bullets to blend together during that attack. Plus some of the faster bullets like to travel behind the slower ones, making them harder to see coming. Not very convenient when trying to follow the tumbling Chen around. I know I died more often on this attack than anything else Chen has during my 1lc attempts last summer.
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Re: Something I just noticed (spellcard difficulty)
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2015, 10:13:26 PM »
Maybe this is shot-type-specific, but MarisaA's shots end up causing some of the bullets to blend together during that attack. Plus some of the faster bullets like to travel behind the slower ones, making them harder to see coming. Not very convenient when trying to follow the tumbling Chen around. I know I died more often on this attack than anything else Chen has during my 1lc attempts last summer.

Maybe that's it- I never even bother trying to follow her. I just sit still (well, I dodge the bullets but you know what I mean) and wait for her to get in my range. I guess that's not a great strategy for scoring, though.
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Re: Something I just noticed (spellcard difficulty)
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2015, 05:42:49 PM »
I never really had much trouble with Chen's last spell until I had to deal with it on Lunatic. I can't even really tell what makes all the difference, but my capture rate for it is horrid compared to my capture rate on Hard.

Also, I have to disagree about the Primsrivers' first spell. Their character-specific opening non-spells tend to be pretty tough, but Live Poltergeist is just a matter of streaming, even if you do have to watch out for random drifting bullets. I'd actually say it's one of their easiest spells (with their final spell being the hardest by far, at least on Lunatic).