UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.

[Suikama]

Her attack power is among the highest in the game.  Unfocused and focused.

Too bad Reimu A's overall power is the best period.

[Sodium]

Meh, perhaps not exactly "suck" but there's almost no point in using MarisaA(MoF). Her spread is awkward, she's outpowered by ReimuB, the shots can miss moving bosses, and MarisaC can be used as spread with attack power. Still not the worst shot type in the game though(MarisaB(no glitch) or ReimuC probably get that dubious award)

Er, whoops. Haven't read the shot type comparison in a while, so my memory was a bit fuzzy. I thought her focused shot far away was weaker then what it actually is(thought it was between Nitori UF and Patch Fire, but it's equal to Nitori F.). Power(items, not attack power) is still an issue with MarisaA because it still requires more power items to get to max, and you're going to end up using more bombs because of how weak they are.

From a perspective of someone who's looking for a simple 1cc, MarisaB is bad. You could put in effort to use her correctly, but it's not worth it because there are much easier shot types you could use and get the same result. It's a jack of all trades, but master of none(minus shotgunning). I'm not saying it's Magic Team level of suck, but the flaws outweigh it's advantages, imo.

Hell, ask Donut about how he tried to 1cc Normal with MarisaB for a while(this is someone who 1cc'd all the other Lunatics at the time), and then in his first time using ReimuA, he 1cc'd it.

Worst shot type in SA is ReimuB anyways. It's a homing type that doesn't do homing well.

Oh, and back on topic(UFO shot type topic):
Worst UFO shot type is MarisaB. Discuss.

[Hawk]

From a perspective of someone who's looking for a simple 1cc, MarisaB is bad. You could put in effort to use her correctly, but it's not worth it because there are much easier shot types you could use and get the same result. It's a jack of all trades, but master of none(minus shotgunning). I'm not saying it's Magic Team level of suck, but the flaws outweigh it's advantages, imo.

Hell, ask Donut about how he tried to 1cc Normal with MarisaB for a while(this is someone who 1cc'd all the other Lunatics at the time), and then in his first time using ReimuA, he 1cc'd it.

Different strokes.  SA was destroying me with ReimuA because I couldn't do the stages.  I wouldn't use MarisaA because I wanted to be able to focus.  And, voila, I have a shot type that has exactly what I need.  I didn't know what I was doing at the time.  I didn't have extensive strategies for when to sweetspot Earth or how Metal completely annihilates Stage 2.  All the neophyte needs is Fire and Water, one for bosses and one for stages.  Leave the other three for later.  For that level of accessability, I'm willing to take a hit on boss damage.  But that's me.

Worst shot type in SA is ReimuB anyways. It's a homing type that doesn't do homing well.

If held at gunpoint, I'm not sure if I would use Suika or Nitori.  I think Suika edges the other out by just a small amount.

Oh, and back on topic(UFO shot type topic):
Worst UFO shot type is MarisaB. Discuss.

Yes.

[Slaves]

Oh, and back on topic(UFO shot type topic):
Worst UFO shot type is MarisaB. Discuss.

incoming Amaterasu

[Sodium]

If held at gunpoint, I'm not sure if I would use Suika or Nitori.  I think Suika edges the other out by just a small amount.

I'd choose Suika just so I wouldn't have to listen to that noise from missiles hitting an enemy. I can stand the UFO MarisaA laser sound, but those missiles are just distracting.

It's not like UFO MarisaB is inherently bad(it's a manageable spread shot type), but all the other shot types are better.

[Hawk]

I'd choose Suika just so I wouldn't have to listen to that noise from missiles hitting an enemy. I can stand the UFO MarisaA laser sound, but those missiles are just distracting.

Oh man, that noise in the only thing I like about her!  It's like you're popping bubble wrap for ALL SIX STAGES maybe up to stage four 'cause you're sure as hell not 1CCing that shit.

[?q]

MoF MarisA sucks. The splash is useless in that game, the spread isn't all that good, and ReimuB outclasses it completely in terms of attack power. MarisaC however is nice(my main shot type in MoF)

Reimu Needles will pretty much always outclass anything in terms of attack power.  That's her point.  MarisaA in MoF offers a nice mix between power (which is most certainly not bad, even if it isn't ReimuB's), and spread.

Except MarisA's spread damage is terrible.
Also, at best her damage is equal to MarisaB's... which is less than ReimuB's.
Also crazy positioning distractions, etc.
Personally I'd use ReimuC before I used MarisA.  At least she can shotgun.

If held at gunpoint, I'm not sure if I would use Suika or Nitori.  I think Suika edges the other out by just a small amount.

I think Nitori wins in damage and has an arguably better bomb.

I agree that Fire and Water (possibly only Water) are all you need with MarisaB.  Anything more is usually showing off or trying to exploit 3.00 Wind + Bomb.

MarisaB in UFO isn't horrible (albeit not optimal) unless you're talking about her bomb.  Except nobody else is really horrible either (evidently, since people use SanaeB enough and she would be my pick~)

EDIT:  I agree with Hawk that having range in SA is amazing.
Unfortunately, my experience with MarisA involves 20some attempts to clear Normal, and then turning around with ReimuA and clearing it in 3.  Yay?

[Sen]

I use MarisaB in SA and she annihilates Stages better than anyone in the game. She has a shot for everything.
Bosses are a totally different story though. She's outclassed by most other shot types in terms of boss battles, although she's debatably one of the best against Orin. Since Orin requires you to fly fuck-all around the screen, there's quite a lot of opportunities for Earth Sign (beginning of Zombie Fairy, Spleen Eater, Rekindling of Dead Ashes). The rest of the time though, it's lolfiresign. ):

[?q]

Because dodging becomes much easier when rapidly pounding Shift+Z?  Especially with Earth Shot's limited range.

Also, repeatedly pressing Shift+Z has a low chance of causing SA to crash IIRC... Or maybe that was the demo.

[Sen]

It's not like it's hard to change shots. Less difficult than releasing all buttons with ReimuB. Using MarisaB to the greatest effect takes planning, but so does everything else in SA. Besides, it's like you said, you don't have to use all the shots, you can get by fine on only Water and Fire.

[Hawk]

I agree that Fire and Water (possibly only Water) are all you need with MarisaB.  Anything more is usually showing off or trying to exploit 3.00 Wind + Bomb.

That's not what I said at all.  That's why I explicitly used the word "neophyte".  I don't understand how effectively using the other types to help you survive is "showing off".

Because dodging becomes much easier when rapidly pounding Shift+Z?  Especially with Earth Shot's limited range.

Barring, like, two cards (Parsee's flower power and Boss Orin's final), there is absolutely no reason for someone who doesn't know what they're doing to switch modes during a boss form.  And once they do know what they're doing, that kind of "rapid pounding" is nothing.

[Elcura]

Because dodging becomes much easier when rapidly pounding Shift+Z?  Especially with Earth Shot's limited range.

Also, repeatedly pressing Shift+Z has a low chance of causing SA to crash IIRC... Or maybe that was the demo.

Use a gamepad.  Makes switching between types so much easier.  And a little planning with MarisaB, you got a game clear easy.  Hell, the first time I played SA with another character I sucked at the stages so bad because MarisaB would clean them up.

[Garlyle]

I agree that Fire and Water (possibly only Water) are all you need with MarisaB.  Anything more is usually showing off or trying to exploit 3.00 Wind + Bomb.

Just as an example, Stage 2 as MarisaB in SA should be done like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2uYnHez4Ck
Note that 95% of the enemies never even get to shoot because the Sideways formation wastes em - except for three enemies more reliable kiled by Diagonal.  And only one of Parsee's spellcards is best dealt with via Fire or Water.

[Esoterica]

I'm almost regretting reading this topic, because I never noticed the super glowy MarisaB options and high pitched sound until now. Doh.

In terms of bomb strength, i've never encountered a spellcard that SanaeB's nuke didn't kill, even at long range. Except for when it's used at the very beginning of a spellcard at least.

The high-pitched screech makes me want to take a hammer to my face.  First thing I noticed when I picked that shot type, though I haven't had any problems with the options through stage 5.

Really, any bomb that isn't MarisaB's should be strong enough to get you past most cards, so bomb strength isn't something I worry about in this game.

[Recon 5]

I may not be qualified to post an opinion here as I have yet to even 1CC Normal, but I always found Marisa B's bomb to be more of a 'practice' bomb. It gives an invulnerability window to get you out of traps but it doesn't end the pattern so you can try again without restarting the whole fight. If you shotgun while it is active the bomb becomes a 'Sanae B lite' with a shorter invulnerability window and less damage than the froggie nuke. Still the worst bomb but it does have its uses.

I actually pull off my most insane rubbish when playing as Marisa B but then again how else can I survive? That's the hidden power of Marisa B I guess.

[Hawk]

Actually, I realized something about MarisaB's bomb lately.

Her bomb will not kill a full-health UFO.

That's fucking awesome.

[Pesco]

Who's got a good enough bomb to do a 1lc with, other than SanaeB? I've almost got it down with her and it's totally doable.

On that note, UFO lets you stock more than 8 bombs.

[Hawk]

Who's got a good enough bomb to do a 1lc with, other than SanaeB? I've almost got it down with her and it's totally doable.

On that note, UFO lets you stock more than 8 bombs.

ReimuA and MarisaA also have powerful bombs.  ReimuB's and SanaeA's bombs are good enough to bomb once the first "dangerous" thing is about to kill you.  The exception is Byakuren, since she seems to take much less damage during bombs (and, of course, no damage during a bomb during Flying Fantastica).

[Pesco]

My bomb schedule (with SanaeB)

Stage 1 - none
Stage 2 - Once just before midboss and Train card
Stage 3 - Once after midboss, Ichirin's first and third (for safety)
Stage 4 - Liberal bombing for chaining, you come out with no net loss. No bombs needed for Murasa
Stage 5 - Both ying yang spam before Nazrin. Nazrin's card for safety. Syou's spinning laser.
Stage 6 - Byakuren's third nonspell, third spell and Shinki card for safety. At Byakuren, you need 2 bombs to clear the attack.

[Esoterica]

Actually, I realized something about MarisaB's bomb lately.

Her bomb will not kill a full-health UFO.

That's fucking awesome.

I knew this at one point, but I completely forgot.

I think I'll go for a normal 1cc tomorrow with MarisaB.

[jisakujien]

[Edit: image fixed, rBf was wrong]

mAf, mAu, mBf, mBf, rAf, rAu, etc..

All at power 4.0.
All always invulnerable (and thus doing terrible damage for the last two cards).
Every shot for the entire spellcard hits, except for rAu where this is not possible.  This is even possible for mBu's back options, but it requires your entire sprite being inside the hitbox.

sB's damage is hard to pin down.  I only captured 1/2 focused and 0/2 focused, but they were really close.  Unfocused could probably capture it since the difference is ~2 seconds.  If everything is hitting, damage is slightly better focused.

[Serela]

mAf, mAu, mBf, mBf, rAf, rAu, etc..

All at power 4.0.
All always invulnerable (and thus doing terrible damage for the last two cards).
Every shot for the entire spellcard hits, except for rAu where this is not possible.  This is even possible for mBu's back options, but it requires your entire sprite being inside the hitbox.

sB's damage is hard to pin down.  I only captured 1/2 focused and 0/2 focused, but they were really close.  Unfocused could probably capture it since the difference is ~2 seconds.  If everything is hitting, damage is slightly better focused.

Sorry to burst your bubble (And I really am since I wish this worked), but those numbers just don't add up. It has MarisaB doing more damage then everyone except ReimuB Unfocused and SanaeB. Actually, ReimuB unfocused has a HUGE amount more damage then everyone else. What? It has ReimuA focused doing almost the exact same damage as MarisaA focus, and... you get the picture.

I'm not saying its your fault, maybe the way the game interprets the damage on Flying Fantastica while invulnerable is just weird. These numbers look too wacky. But you should probably redo the test on some high-hp card that isn't one of Byakuren's last 2, or any of Nue's cards.

It would probably be much easier to read too, since the game gives the exact time values on how long the card took to kill. Really nifty.

[moozooh]

SA where MarisaA wins Easy and MarisaB wins Normal and Hard.

Arguably Marisa-B "wins" every mode (except probably Extra) because the difference between theoretical maximum for her and the best respective character is pretty negligible. d.f would have gotten ~4.2 billion in his Lunatic run if he hadn't needlessly died twice, and practical maximum for Reimu-A is only ~4.3 billion.

MarisaC in MoF have the great survival options open to them

Using Marisa-C for survival requires more understanding of the game than is feasible for the purpose. If you don't deploy the options at the right place and in time, you're looking at being stuck with her long-range weapons which don't deal any damage to speak of until the end of attack/enemy wave.

Actually, I realized something about MarisaB's bomb lately.

Her bomb will not kill a full-health UFO.

That's fucking awesome.

Marisa-B is more effective than Reimu-B and is about on par with Sanae-A and Reimu-A in regards to scoring. She has a larger graze hitbox and less trouble clearing the screen of popcorn enemies, her bomb is short and deals less damage which allows for more potential graze farming, and the fact that it doesn't kill a full-health UFO is just an icing on the cake. Funny as it is, she's not a bottom-tier scoring character (though of course it won't be possible to reach the effectiveness of M-A and S-B).

That Sodium stuff about Marisa-B's spread not being useful in SA is rather funny, btw.

[jisakujien]

Same order as the first one, I had the wrong screenshot for rBf where the bar had not refilled yet.



Same order, last card of stage 3.
rAu has 3 bullets missing.
mBu has the bottom left option completely missing.
sBu has 2 frogs missing.



Nue's last card, all focused because doing this is incredibly boring even at the insane speed I have it running at. 

mB does good damage in these tests but they are misleading as you cannot actually do that much damage in real play.  Focused you have to be incredibly close and for unfocused you have to be inside of the boss.  Basically, for everyone but sB you are going to do the most damage with whomever you can manage to hit with the most as the differences are pretty insignificant.  sB's damage is exceptional, but even focused you need to be pretty close (though not as bad as mB).

[Serela]

shottype damage picturz
-Not going to torture everyone with a giant quote-

Now THIS is informative <3

I like ranting to myself about things all the time, so this time I typed it down for anyone who cares.


ReimuA vs. MarisaA
I'm a little surprised at how close the damage difference is. Yay.
Reimu:Smaller hitbox, Slightly more damage, Bomb is a little stronger and doesn't slow you down as much
Marisa:Slightly faster unfocus, Penetration, Bigger graze hitbox(?)

SanaeA vs. ReimuB
SanaeA:Slightly more damage, higher percentage of damage done by homing
Reimu:Omnidirection homing, all amulets attack same target, slightly stronger bomb

Its nice to know SanaeA does about the same damage focused and unfocused. You can use her slower unfocus snakes to sneak a smidgen more damage in by using it when you can't hit/damage anything.

MarisaB's far focus damage is supposed to be about as strong as SanaeA, and SanaeB far focus is supposed to be -slightly- stronger then MarisaA. The information wasn't tested in this, but from the previous tests, this should be vaugely correct.

Also, SanaeB seems a good bit better then Marisa&ReimuA if your just trying to 1cc the game/extra, since its nearly/is stronger then those, with spread added on... how unfair. But, to each his own. Reimu has smaller hitbox and a little more power, Marisa has other random stuff. It just seems like spread>those things.

[Sen]

So, does anyone know how to get the most power out of SanaeB when she's at 2.00-2.99? I'm having a ton of trouble killing enemies in early Stage 2 fast enough to get the UFOs I need...the problem is that the enemies I need to kill have small enough hitboxes that, at 2.00 power and focusing, only Sanae's basic shot will hit them; the frogs just barely miss. Unfocused, I can't get any frogs to hit at all. :\

Any help with this?

[Hawk]

I haven't tested this thoroughly, but I'm pretty sure SanaeB's ravioli does more damage unfocused, so it's more efficient to kill single, small hitbox enemies unfocused until at least 3 power, and maybe until 4.

[Be Pok U (1998 burst style)]

I don't know, but aren't the rate of frogs coming from Sanae's flank higher when unfocused? even if they do travel slower, you'd pretty much have an easy time spamming it left and right for full coverage. Not even sure if there's much of a power difference between 3-4 power focused since 3 power is the only time Sanae shoots 3 frogs directly ahead when but 4  shoots faster?.

On Marisa though, I still want to say both options are bad A&B.
Even if A has penetration, master spark's speed penalty makes it such a pain (same speed as ufos) to utilize any ufo heavy spots. Even Reimu A moves faster during her bomb.

[LHCling]

I don't know, but aren't the rate of frogs coming from Sanae's flank higher when unfocused?

No. The speed of the frogs are different, which makes the distance between each frog fired larger.

On Marisa though, I still want to say both options are bad A&B.
Even if A has penetration, master spark's speed penalty makes it such a pain (same speed as ufos) to utilize any ufo heavy spots. Even Reimu A moves faster during her bomb.

When used properly, Master Spark can (yes, you heard me) be used to score (via graze or other) / chain UFOs. ReimuA's bomb doesn't cover a wide range. This doesn't allow you to do things such as receive the "Hidden" UFO in Stage 2.

MarisaB is for the skillful. MarisaB requires you to learn a different play style in order to be played efficiently.

[jisakujien]

I wanted to get exact card life values from memory for bomb tests, but I ended up finding random other things along the way. One such thing is the hit detection function... so instead of just being always invulnerable I can just make the bullet miss, which led to doing the 飛鉢「伝説の飛空円盤」 tests over again so you don't have to count pixels on the bar.
This card has 7200 'life' but I cannot remember if bullets do 7(?) times more damage or it is 1/7th damage when you are invulnerable. 

order is the same as usual, extreme close range, only mAf has any of the shot missing, etc