Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Kirin no Sora on July 20, 2018, 11:44:41 AM

Title: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Kirin no Sora on July 20, 2018, 11:44:41 AM
Thread 1 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,4187.0.html)
Thread 2 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,4614.0.html)
Thread 3 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,5049.0.html)
Thread 4 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,6229.0.html)
Thread 5 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,6744.0.html)
Thread 6 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7188.0.html)
Thread 7 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,9136.0.html)
Thread 8 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,11564.0.html)
Thread 9 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,13990.0.html)
Thread 10 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15170.0.html)
Thread 11 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15431.0.html)
Thread 12 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16042.0.html)
Thread 13 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16978.0.html)
Thread 14 (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17586.0.html)
Thread 15 (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,19029.0.html)
Thread 16 (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,20421.0.html)
Thread 17 (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,21095.0.html)

Translation Thread (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15439.0.html)

English Wiki

LoT 1 (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou)
LoT 2 (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2)

MoonJapanese Wiki

LoT 1 (http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/)
LoT 2 (http://www54.atwiki.jp/thlabyroth2)

LoT 1 Patches and other downloads
Ver 2.04 patch (http://www.mediafire.com/download/mzdgl54mxmi/thLabyrinth_ver2.04.zip)
Ver 2.06B patch (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DA1DGQZC) Dead link. HALP.
Ver 3.01 patch (http://www.mediafire.com/download/ahccqhixp7d1n9p/thLabyrinth_ver3.01.zip)
English Patch for Ver 3.01 (http://www.mediafire.com/?t1v567p5sced1zl)
Cheat Engine chart (Cheat list ver: 8th June 2010) (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,6229.msg356800.html#msg356800)
Cheat table for Special Disc on Win XP (Cheat list ver: 8th June 2010) (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,6229.msg377088.html#msg377088)
Suggested builds (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7188.msg589521.html#msg589521)
Offline database (http://www.mediafire.com/download/w5jig4q58hlmy3z/Labyrinth+DataBase.rar)
New Game+ file for version 3.01 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7188.0;attach=15055)

LoT 2, its Patches, and other downloads
The place to go to buy a legitimate copy of the game. (http://www.melonbooks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=IT0000165852) The instructions for how to navigate the site in order to buy it is here. (http://imgur.com/a/qA3Dc)

Start game with all characters (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15431.msg1017162.html#msg1017162)
Ver 1.202 (http://firestorage.jp/download/0584ab67e6fae363810686ef8648a4c7e09e4c0a)
Ver 1.203 (http://firestorage.jp/download/7814f97d45779c2c977b514c0db479fae8e926d8)

Image packs
Squidtentacle's pack (https://www.mediafire.com/?l61o19nxqt82j)
chripy's pack (http://www.mediafire.com/download/pc8dovp81cj8u8z/CharaGraph.rar)
Pandaology's pack (https://www.mediafire.com/?pdk5l7dc8vy9z)

Enemy Info (https://www.dropbox.com/s/jnlnx9stxxybinb/enemy_info%20v2.zip?dl=0)
Contains their Stats, Affinities, Ailment Resistances, EXP, Money, Drops, and Types

Spellcard Info (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ujydvnmgj466eaq/spellcard_info.zip?dl=0)
4 text files for Characters, Commands, Enemies, and Subclass data in a zip file

Individual files for those who only don't want to download a zip file
Character (https://www.dropbox.com/s/lg29mv3r2b9ahrj/Spellcards_Character.txt?dl=0)
Commands (https://www.dropbox.com/s/5abxf9st849cnw8/Spellcards_Commands.txt?dl=0)
Enemies (https://www.dropbox.com/s/fv8pi1hepbkh3v9/Spellcards_Enemy.txt?dl=0)
Subclasses (https://www.dropbox.com/s/z5g5llnwa34jb53/Spellcards_Subclasses.txt?dl=0)

Passive Skill Info (https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jovqyauwx24odf/Labyrinth%20of%20Touhou%202%20Passive%20Skills.txt?dl=0)
Data on all the character's passive skills that affect damage formulas, stats, etc

Enemy AI Dump (https://www.dropbox.com/s/bfpfenffpit76yr/lot2_enemy_ai_dump.txt?dl=0)

Developer's site: http://www.geocities.jp/aaa_3peso/ (http://www.geocities.jp/aaa_3peso/)
Main page : http://www.geocities.jp/aaa_3peso/THL2/top.htm  (http://www.geocities.jp/aaa_3peso/THL2/top.htm)

Now then, onwards!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on July 20, 2018, 03:49:48 PM
Stupid question, but I'm playing this for the first time and loving it and just wanted to check to see if my understanding on how much content the plus disk added is correct. The wiki shows it adds 20 floors in total, is this correct?
Indeed, this is correct :) Each floor being gradually more difficult than previous floor in both - layout and monsters.

Plus Disk also adds randomly generated Infinite Corridor, which is currently limited to 250 floors. But those floors were made mostly with aim to go through them as fast as possible (to get as big bonuses as possible), so they aren't large and have their own specific rules and mechanics.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on July 20, 2018, 08:24:15 PM
Well, it's not really that clear cut. A lot of the Plus Disk floors just kinda breeze by and don't really add much. Most notably, floor 22 is about as small and simple as a floor from the early game, and some of the early basement floors and b7 are also a noticeable step back from the later stratums of main game. Some of the plus disk floors are MASSIVE and brutal, but definitely not all of them. A good few of them don't even have a boss.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on July 20, 2018, 09:45:27 PM
We've gotten quite far with these threads, haven't we?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on July 20, 2018, 10:41:41 PM
Labyrinth 1 went through three releases, and Labyrinth 2's nearing it's 5 year anniversary and is STILL being developed. That's some hella longevity @.@
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: charliebobson on July 20, 2018, 10:45:42 PM
That's really incredible. About how long would it take to go through all of the content? I'm currently about 20 hours in on floor 10.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on July 20, 2018, 11:52:18 PM
20~30 more hours should finish basegame for you (depending, especially on whether or not you include the non-plus-disk postgame in that time) and then you can plausibly reach the current end of Plus Disk in under 100 total hours of game time on your save file. It does depend on how efficiently your team can clear random battles, which can save/cost a lot of time, and if you do stuff like grind foes/materials/infinite corridor.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: charliebobson on July 21, 2018, 02:31:02 AM
Fuck me this game has a lot of shit in it. Things have definitely slowed down for me recently in terms of floor progress per hour, especially as I get more characters and want to try different party setups and maximize my power. The first few floors took a pretty short and breezy amount of time, but now that I have something like 30 completely mechanically unique characters, that all synergize both with each other and the all of the different subclasses, I've ended up spending a lot more time in Gensokyo fiddling with equipment, skill points, and level up bonuses. And so many of the bosses actually require this level of fiddling too, I went through something like 5 different party compositions fighting Ran. I especially love how all of the bosses have their own unique feel, like Tenshi being this impossible to damage stone wall, with most of the challenge coming from figuring out how to actually damage her without hitting the insta kill buff cap. Then you have Ran, which is this insane damage race where you have to create a party and strategy that can both withstand her high damage attacks and mana wipes, while also making sure to have a way to lock down or kill her shikigamis before they have a chance to buff her power level into oblivion.

The level of creativity in this game in general just amazes me, and the love the developers obviously had for the source material and every single little thing they reference really shines through and just makes the game a joy to play. It manages to place a unique twist on long term dungeon crawling resource management with TP and balancing your MP usage with concentrating, and it's board gamey isometric viewpoint gives the game its own flavor, distinct from the Wizardry and Etrian Odyssey games that it was inspired by.

The 12 person party makes it so you always feel like you have something to tweak or alter or improve on in your party, and all of the characters manage to be so distinct and flavorful. They all have their own special niche to fill, even within groupings like Tank or Support or DPS. Sanae and Reimu are both bulky jack of all trades with a focus on support, but they manage to play completely differently within that space, which matches their parallel roles as shrine maidens. I fucking love that! Reimu has her focus on composite damage and weak but party wide buffs and heals, while Sanae has elemental diversity and much more powerful but single target buffs and heals. Reimu can deal Mondo damage with Grand Incantation, while Sanae has the more flexible but weaker damage dealing option of raising her skills to level 9. All of these small differences add up to create two characters that function completely differently within their given niche. And these are the two characters that are probably the most similar throughout the entire cast that I've recruited yet! Chen, Parsee, and Youmu are all physical damage dealers that approach the task from wildly different angles. Chen pops in for a round to deal small amounts of damage and then immediately leaves in order to stay safe. Or she could be played very riskily, giving herself a huge self buff to attack at the expense of her defenses, relying solely on her ability do dodge to stay alive. Parsee is a bulky but deals less damage than other characters, unless she or someone else can inflict terror, in which case she skyrockets to possibly dealing the highest damage on the team. Youmu is this awesome high risk, high reward character that requires careful attention to be paid to her, with her high Mana costs and stat buff from being low on health. All of these characters are creative enough to be the Quina, Gogo, or Mog style gimmick party member in any other game, whereas in Labyrinth of Touhou they are simply par for the course. There are so many interesting and exciting ideas in this game, it's impossible to cover them all. I haven't mentioned Marissa, who is fragile, difficult to keep on the front lines, and relies on being able to switch with another character after she blows her Master Spark, but also gains a huge self buff every turn if enough party members are dead, encouraging you to play risky with her, and keep her in the front lines for extended periods of time. Or how Reimu, who's main asset is her versatility, gains a huge increase in damage or healing from spending her turns concentrating, forcing you to make difficult choices on what to spend her already limited turns on. Every character obviously had so much thought and care put into their design.

Although I haven't played far enough to determine if the game is balanced at all at endgame, so far every character has managed to fulfill their niche successfully. (Although some niches are more specific than others. Sorry I never use you, Cirno!) The games overall balance has really impressed me so far, especially when I compare it to other games that attempt to differentiate their characters to an extent that even approaches how far this game goes. Disgaea runs into the problem of its characters feeling too samey, and while balanced, the main thing that differentiates them is how much damage they can do, and from how far away. Final Fantasy 5 and Final Fantasy Tactics run into a similar issue, while also having much greater imbalances between classes. A Geomancer in FF5 will always be inferior to a Knight with Black Magic in terms of combat capability, and while their use of avoiding damage tiles and other environmental hazards might have been useful in a different game, is irrelevant given the simplicity of FF5s dungeons.

I could go on and on about how fucking good this game is. After playing so many RPGs that play it so safe with encounter and character design this game is a breath of fresh air. It's cute, it's creative, it takes risks, it respects the player and their time. It has brilliant boss and class design, every boss trying something new, and every character having their own idiosyncrasies and quirks, contradictions within their core design that challenge you to think hard and determine the most optimal way they can be played. It has intelligent and thoughtful dungeon design, encouraging the player to explore every floor fully and remember important landmarks and characters. This post has really gotten away from me, but I am just so consistently amazed by this game. This is the first Touhou fangame I've ever played, and it has set an incredibly high bar for any I play in the future. If you actually made it to the end of this random ass post from somebody who has literally never posted in this forum before today, I'm super thankful to you for actually reading this horrible pile of bullshit that has spewed out from my mouth.

Also, if any of the people who worked on the fan translation are in this thread, mad props to them. Managing to coherently translate such a text heavy game that is so reliant on item and skill descriptions, both for its charm and for mechanical purposes is very impressive. The dialogue is natural sounding, and every character has a pretty distinct voice too. I'm really impressed, and super thankful for giving me the chance to play this game.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: iuribg on July 21, 2018, 06:06:40 PM
I wonder if Tasofro would make any character changes aside from bug fixes in the last patch. I still fell like Youmu could be a lot better. In the official games, she have the ability to destroy danmaku with her sword or even reflect it. This ability couuld be somehow present in Labyrinth too. Maybe she could reflect a certain amount of magic damage scaling with her own atack damage. This hability would proc every time she concentrates, keeping her actual play style but giving her a bit more of survivability and damage, especialy against magic atacker foes. That would make her very good in my opinion.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on July 22, 2018, 04:32:02 AM
Tasofro :VV They do make a lot of neat fangames but this is 3peso.

Youmu is extremely underwhelming until endgame, it's true. At least she's very good in endgame due to her stellar awakening and lv9 moves, but... that's a very small portion of the game, especially considering she's recruited on FLOOR ONE. Slash of Eternity could really use a buff (why doesn't it have a formula like other slow expensive single target nukes??) and in general she could probably use a little more base ATK, which would balance out in endgame where everyone's getting +7 to their base attack/mag (so her awakening wouldn't be obscene). If SoE was a more worthy nuke and she had 1~2 more base attack then she'd... at least be able to hold her own, and using her gimmick passives would actually have a payoff before her awakening is obtained.

Swordmaster's Spirit added in Plus doesn't necessarily help much, because she needs maxed HP for it to activate and it only makes concentrating between every other attack viable, not actually -good-. Yet it would also be difficult to tweak it without destroying her awesome awakening build. Meanwhile I don't think more extreme suggestions like damage reduced by Attack stat could make it in at this point.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: iuribg on July 22, 2018, 11:04:39 PM
I messed up the developers, indeed is 3peso :p
So sad about Youmu, i really like the character, but it is so hard to fit her in the party.  Wished to see more game on Alice too, but she is far for the sad state that youmu is right now. Seems like i will keep 3d scoping.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on July 23, 2018, 12:50:41 AM
Alice is pretty good as long as you're willing to use Marisa. Hourai Doll gets a big boost from Row Atk Enhancement on Sorc, and she's got good variety in her attack set, regen+evasion, defense piercing, etc. Not one of the incredible-tier characters but pretty solid.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: charliebobson on July 24, 2018, 03:51:56 AM
is reimu as a monk with the concentration buff as good as i think she is

ive been using her as one of my main damage dealers ever since i unlocked her and she has done her role exceedingly well. I got past the remilia and sakuya fight pretty easily just because she was able to kill remilia from above half health with a charged fantasy seal. Plus she can heal and support like a motherfucker still too, and the constant concentrating means she almost never runs out of mana.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on July 24, 2018, 05:16:33 AM
Concentration Reimu is pretty OK. The main plus is that a lot of stuff is weak to spirit, where she comes in majorly handy- I had just been enjoying secondhand Fantasy Seal off Satori for that fight. And she's not even dead weight on spirit-resistant enemies since you just swap to defensive levelups and use her support. The build actually gets even better in Plus Disk with the base stat increases, her damage-friendly awakening, and the way endgame scaling works.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: charliebobson on July 24, 2018, 05:30:44 PM
is there any sort of general consensus on which characters are the best/worst? i've been trying to use just about everyone, but It'd be nice to have some fallback, overpowered characters in case I get stuck on a boss (or at least, which ones to avoid using)

also the second battle theme is fucking sick, is there a new one for the plus disk floors?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Arcvasti on July 24, 2018, 08:15:39 PM
Nitori is really really overpowered. Maintenance is incredibly, ludicrously broken and her other skills and spellcards are generally excellent. Hina trivializes almost any boss without complete debuff immunity and is still pretty good against debuff resistant bosses. Iku is a really good support who fills a whole bunch of roles at once while also being able to output decent damage if built that way.

Kaguya isn't as overpowered as the above three, but she's very valuable against bosses with super high defenses, which are annoyingly common before Plus Disc. Reisen can inflict all debuffs and every aliment but HVY, which can be very helpful indeed. She also has pretty good defense piercing between her huge MND debuffs and ignoring half of enemy defenses anyways.

As for the worst characters, the only ones that really come to mind are Youmu, Nazrin and Utsuho[If you don't have Plus Disc]. Youmu just doesn't have good enough damage or durability for her MP gimmick to be worth it. Pre Plus Disc Utsuho's spellcard formulas are just awful, even though she has decent stats and skills. Nazrin is also fairly bad, with one situational offensive skill and mediocre stats. Every other character is at least usable, although they might not be usable against every boss or with every team composition. For example, Alice has decent damage if she can inflict HVY and you have Marisa in the back, but bad damage otherwise.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on July 24, 2018, 08:20:22 PM
also the second battle theme is fucking sick, is there a new one for the plus disk floors?
Second? Yes, there are more in plus disk floors, and there will be more before plus disk floors ;)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on July 24, 2018, 08:50:37 PM
also the second battle theme is fucking sick, is there a new one for the plus disk floors?

For battle themes, there's a total of 3 new random encounter themes in Plus Disk. The second theme for the main game is the best one out of all of them imo though.

Second?

There's a new battle theme for random encounters starting with 13f, that's the one being referred to.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on July 25, 2018, 08:44:53 PM
There's a new battle theme for random encounters starting with 13f, that's the one being referred to.
Yeah I understood that :) I wanted to point that there is at least one more battle theme in prePlus-Disk content. I also liked a special very magnificent battle theme for super bosses :) But probably boss themes don't count.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: 220639 on July 26, 2018, 08:13:00 PM
Does anyone know where to get the Judas Pain? (3rd main equipment from 3rd page)
It's the only main equipment I just can't seem to find...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: charliebobson on July 27, 2018, 12:50:56 AM
oh shit theres a third normal battle theme? what floor does it start playing on?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on July 27, 2018, 01:16:46 AM
New battle themes play for 21f and beyond, basement floors, and the special Corridor dungeon.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: charliebobson on July 27, 2018, 04:54:38 PM
so whats the general consensus on labyrinth of touhou 1? is it better or worse than 2, is it still worth playing after 2?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Arcvasti on July 27, 2018, 05:29:03 PM
LoT2 is generally an improvement in basically every way. The only real edge LoT1 has is that it's probably harder, since you just don't have as many options. LoT1 also has some really obnoxious level gimmicks/puzzles going. LoT1 is still good, just disappointing compared to LoT2.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: zeroxtime62 on July 27, 2018, 06:05:46 PM
I played LoT after playing LoT2 and I enjoyed it significantly more though I still like both games a lot. I'll just briefly mention some things that made me like it more.

I found the characters felt much more balanced relative to each other in the first game. One gripe I had with LoT2 is that I'd often feel like I was putting myself at a disadvantage if I wasn't using a character who could accomplish the same role as another but had more options alongside said role. I also much prefer characters having Non-Elemental attacks as opposed to Physical because it felt like I could use who I wanted in any almost situation and their damage wouldn't be hampered as a result of what the enemy affinities were.

LoT2 had some enemy balancing issues in my opinion. A lot of the postgame bosses are far too bulky which can often result in characters being unable to do much besides small scratch damage. I think the Plus Disk encounters are also a bit too annoying. They're often really fast and have a lot of HP which makes taking them down before they get a turn can be quite awkward if you aren't running a dedicated frontline to specifically deal with them. LoT Plus Disk also had its share of annoying random encounters but I found them to be a bit more tedious in the sequel.

I prefer the SP system over the MP one. I also like that you can level up SP and TP in the library.

I hate evasion so the fact that it's completely broken in LoT is a plus for me.

I like the puzzles in the first game more than any of the ones in the sequel. I know most people can't stand the Fail Safe switches but I enjoyed having to constantly manage my party to maximize TP so I could reach the really out of the way switches.

I the original soundtrack in the first game more than I like the soundtrack from the sequel. They're both good but none of the songs really "wow'd" me in LoT2.

I found the boss fights to be more engaging in the first game though I was slightly disappointed with a few of them because I had heard that Alice, Eientei and Rinnosuke were supposedly these impassable walls that would kick your butt over and over again but none of them really felt too difficult despite having not grinded. Rinnosuke did take more than one attempt but the other two I managed to beat on my first try going into them blind. LoT2 has some good bosses as well like Guardian of the Crystals and SoC but I just preferred the ones from LoT.

I can't tell you whether this is the consensus or not but I figured I'd offer my personal opinion of the two games.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: charliebobson on July 27, 2018, 07:51:01 PM
so uh, my save file disappeared. at the load screen its like it never existed. anything i can do to fix this or am I just fucked, a cautionary tale to always keep multiple save files?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on July 27, 2018, 08:37:29 PM
so uh, my save file disappeared. at the load screen its like it never existed. anything i can do to fix this or am I just fucked, a cautionary tale to always keep multiple save files?
You need recall in your memory everything you did before save file disappeared. Also check your game directory, it should have "save" subdirectory - check it if it has any files in it (and if it is read-only, just in case).

End of July soon, so the final patch is almsot here? My test character (https://i.imgur.com/etMuNvi.png) is ready to discover how deep he can go in the final version of endless corridor :) And ready to test his strength against 
WINNER
of any level :) Standard
WINNER
was one-shotted without a fight.

(Of course I have normal party too, I am just messing around while waiting for patch and also testing various stuff)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: charliebobson on July 27, 2018, 09:02:54 PM
i ended up just starting a new game, which is surprising because normally i usually just take a break for a while whenever this happens with other games. This game is some quality shit though so an exception was made.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on July 27, 2018, 11:50:41 PM
so whats the general consensus on labyrinth of touhou 1? is it better or worse than 2, is it still worth playing after 2?
LoT 2 has many many quality of life improvements that make the game much less permanent in your choices, which has its benefits if you're the type to under invest if you're worried about regretting your spending down the line. This makes 2 overall easier because you can retweak your characters as much as you want, whereas with 1 for the most optimal party you need to decide from the start where you want to allocate your level up points and hope that you've made the right decision later in the game.

Subclasses and skillsets are a mixed bag for me, I don't mind the variability in playstyles you can attain through using them but as a first time player of 2 it was really stressful and got to a point where i was constantly worrying that i wasn't using the most optimal party and therefore making things much harder on myself unknowingly. I think the sheer level of tweaks available are great if you're the kind of person who loves theorycrafting different parties but that's not me so it wasn't a huge plus in my book.

Aesthetically obviously 2 has the edge but with a charagraph pack 1 isn't that bad either, the music is decent still.

Where I think 1 really shines is in it's boss battles, because 2's boss battles imo are horrendously balanced in some parts, especially in postgame. 1's boss battles also benefited from the lack of a visible health bar I feel, because the desperation phases and health scripted moves came at a surprise unless you were closely counting damage. 1's bosses are definitely much more trial and error and punishing if you don't build your party correctly from the get go, but imo the difficulty isn't a bad thing.

Another huge plus is that 1's character balance overall as mentioned before is much better relative to each other. The worst character is still usable, the best characters aren't groundbreakingly OP and necessary for survival. There's only a few situations where someone in particular is hands down the best bet for a role in a boss, but even then there's always alternatives that work just as well, if needing a little bit of tweaking to get there. 2's got a fairly substansial amount of people where if you're not using them you're going to struggle a looot more (Hina, Nitori etc).  Someone in an earlier thread described it best, LoT1's character balance goes from like 5-9 on a 10 point scale. But LoT2's goes from 7-11. Where the overall roster is better in 2 but there's some that are way too good.

tl;dr really, your first playthrough in 1 will be fairly hard unless you extensively read on how to best prepare your characters. But with experience the game is not nearly as difficult. There's a big lack of quality of life improvements that are present in 2, but it's nothing you can't live without. The game is simpler and most of the strategy comes out in party management for exploring, and boss battles, which are better than 2's boss battles. Characters are all usable and there's no super amazing OP can't live without character. Just use a charagraph to get rid of the ugly portraits and enjoy yourself.

I greatly prefer 1 but the simplicity is much easier to deal with for me and there is more party flexibility because there aren't really any bosses that punish not using certain characters in the same way that 2 can do. I keep returning to 1 to replay it again and again, but I'm in no rush to do so for 2.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on July 28, 2018, 01:07:50 AM
2's got a fairly substansial amount of people where if you're not using them you're going to struggle a looot more (Hina, Nitori etc).  Someone in an earlier thread described it best, LoT1's character balance goes from like 5-9 on a 10 point scale. But LoT2's goes from 7-11. Where the overall roster is better in 2 but there's some that are way too good.
I don't think that's quite the case. Though I'm bad at this game, so I may be wrong here; when it comes to damage, I think if you have a glass cannon or two, characters like Nitori aren't really necessary mandatory. I think it's a "problem" of having enough of each role. Like Tank, Support, Healer, Glass Cannon, etc...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on July 28, 2018, 01:11:00 AM
Nitori isn't mandatory, but she's pretty insane. Glass cannons are a lot harder to use in LoT2 and she deals glass cannon damage while being as durable as your main tank, while running a full attack build. Also once you start getting the better postgame gear she gets literally twice (or more) the attack of any other member of your party for a very significant portion of the game, which is quite frankly, broken as all getout and other characters don't start catching up until well into the 1000s.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: seeker3218 on July 28, 2018, 01:57:18 AM
so whats the general consensus on labyrinth of touhou 1? is it better or worse than 2, is it still worth playing after 2?

I've only played 2, so I don't have an opinion on 1, but I'll give my thoughts on 2.

I like the game, and I love the variety it gives, especially with skills and gems to boost your characters.  I'm of the type that like to use a set number of characters that work well together in a game with many characters so that I can fully invest in them and use their full potential.  However, there are times where this was counterproductive, especially in postgame.  As many people have said, it's horribly unbalanced, especially with bosses.  You need a certain combination of characters to beat them, or I'm just a terrible player. 

Yeah, Nitori and Meiling tower above everyone else because of how insanely powerful they are.  It's like if you're mising out completely if you don't use them, and them there are useless characters like Youmu.

If the postgame bosses and characters were better balanced, this would've been my favorite game of all time.  Personally, I wished the postgame would better integrated into Plus Disk, like how the upper floors and basement floors were connected.

I read from one of the posts that TH L1 did a better job at character balance than 2, but the too simple design drives me away.  I'm not really tempted to play it anytime soon.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on July 28, 2018, 02:40:32 AM
The original postgame (non-plus) is ridiculously unbalanced and I shamelessly overleveled to wipe them out when I was doing my second play with Plus Disk. It was vaguely OK when they were the BIG SUPERBOSSES but once they're not the end of the end, it's way too much. The plus disk bosses are way more handle-able. Futo is a huge exception holy crud, but other than that.

I can't speak too much for balance in Plus other than Futo because Nitori just trashed everything way too hard, and then the late bosses where Nitori is slightly less obscene seem... mostly not that bad. However it seems like a focus on many small, short, dangerous bosses, with some gimmicks sprinkled here and there. Which is kinda nice, actually. A lot of people commented that
Winner
is kind of -easy-, although at least in the full version it'll keep scaling up until you find a version that puts up a fight? I hope for a bit more out of the superbosses we'll see in the final patch. The infinite corridor fights were especially disappointing because their HP wasn't scaled properly. (It was only scaled for level, it seems, not for your heightened library values.- e.g. someone commented the 250f boss has roughly the same hp as the 100f boss, when at equivalent level.)

When you're killing all the end bosses with 0~2 character losses in a game like this, it's definitely sort of disappointing. King has some presence, but his pressure mostly just comes from the fight having forced time limits between a party-one-shotter and a fullheal that you can totally avoid. It'd be interesting if the party-one-shotting move was less avoidable, considering Akyuu's invincibility and resurrection/guts/etc exist, along with his attack-up afterwards turning up the heat. I guess that would somewhat restrict party composition though, and that late in the game it starts to be a lot to ask people to possibly swap in other characters.


Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on July 28, 2018, 04:14:52 AM
- e.g. someone commented the 250f boss has roughly the same hp as the 100f boss, when at equivalent level.)

Ah yeah that was me. Going off the levels in Keine's Library (184), the bosses look like this.

-100f boss: 8,041,183
-250f boss: 8,269,155

Though, I've no idea how the stats are calculated, so in practice the HP difference might be totally unalike. The levels shown in Keine's Library for Corridor bosses scales up with your progress in the Infinite Corridor, so I tried experimenting with that a little to see if I could figure out the HP scaling formula, and there was no really easy way to figure it out, it wasn't anything simple like "X * level" increases. I think that different level ranges have different scaling too, which further complicates things. As I recall, 3peso had to adjust Corridor enemy ATK/MAG at the higher levels twice (IIRC) because it was getting out of control.

On the topic of base game's postgame, I didn't think it was that bad outside of The Great "C" (solely because in theory one could use Black Universe and another "C" Falling From The Sky to unavoidably defeat a character, but they're more likely to just repeatedly Black Universe the same character) and Guardian of the Crystals (and looking back at how I fought it, I see tons of room for improvement in my strategy, although I think it'd still be one of the harder bosses in the game), but admittedly I don't really remember it that well because I just beat the Shadow bosses without even considering trying to learn the fights and record them.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on July 28, 2018, 07:01:56 AM
Adding in my 2 cents.

I think Labyrinth 2 is the far better game overall, but it's missing some elements of the first game I dearly miss. Labyrinth 2 has (for my money, anyway) a far better roster of characters, many more interesting ways to use each one, and double at LEAST the amount of interesting strategic choices to make for each one via the Skills menu. Labyrinth 2 even goes the extra mile by making each and every character worth using at some point, I think in a typical unlimited playthrough of the game, I get legitimate, natural use out of every single member in the cast, until the plus disc characters anyway. In labyrinth 1, that used to never happen for me. It was so much more rigid, basic, and clear-cut who you should stay with and who was just kind of not worth it.

What Labyrinth 2 lacks, however, is some of the brutal battles of the first game. Despite Labyrinth 2's much more complex and free system, or maybe even because of it, it's very rare to have a boss fight that actually poses a significant problem for you to get around. There are exceptions of course, and there are a few instances where the enemy strongarms you into a particular strategy that can be "fun" to figure out, but for the most part you can tackle any boss in 2 "easily" in a dozen different ways ore more, between all the characters, their skills, situational and permanent boosts, who has what items, subclasses as a whole... Labyrinth 1 ends up being harder to overwhelm just because you have significantly fewer options to power everyone up on your side, so if Labyrinth 1 has a gimmick fight, it's REALLY something you have to buckle down for and struggle through. 2 doesn't really have these. Especially apparent in the endgame, 2 more often than not has "stack ALL THE DAMAGE on 1-2 star players via every means necessary, and wipe."

In the end, I'd rather play 2 any day, but labyrinth 1 still has a brutal appeal to it I wish carried over into 2 a bit more often. The closest Labyrinth 2 gets to feeling like the first game in my eyes, is the mirror/magatama battles on floor 12, and the final boss on floor 20. 
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on July 28, 2018, 01:12:44 PM
From what I can tell off his latest tweet, 3peso is trying to finish the patch in time to play Etrian Odyssey Cross (World Tree X) which has it's JP release on August 2nd  :V

I totally agree with the sentiment that the first game had way better boss fights, though. LoT2 does at times, but there's definitely some problems in the long run.

And, the corridor HP scaling seems fair to assume is (was, hopefully, in the latest patch) insufficient, considering that even if we don't know direct data, we -do- know all the late bosses fell down way faster than it felt like they should have.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on July 28, 2018, 02:09:29 PM
I mostly agree with what people said about LoT1 vs LoT2, here, but there's one thing I heavily disagree with - character balance

LoT1's characters were a LOT less balanced between each other than LoT2. There were a lot of characters which were simply outclassed in nearly every possible way. In LoT2, you have 2 more elements, skills which enables chars to do absolutely unique things (like Cirno's unresistible SPD debuffs, or Reisen's Intense Vertigo, or Maribel's "treat enemy buffs as debuffs", and so on). In LoT1, chars basically had only 4 things they could do: deal damage, heal, tank, or buff. Sometimes status/debuff. That's it. And there was a lot of overlap between the chars, with some getting the short end of the stick in a pretty ugly way.

In fact, if I were to classify LoT1's characters based on lategame performance (something I intended to post a while ago here, after having defeated WINNER 256 times but never did), I'd probably file them as follows:

RANK S (These characters should be an automatic entry on any competitive team - any team not including these chars is almost automatically worse as a result):

Reimu: By far the best healer in the game. Impressively balanced stats mean that she can easily stay on the frontline while supporting her team, and the overall generous multipliers of her spellcards allows her to deal consistent damage for a healer/support character. Evil Sealing Circle provides paralysis support, while Great Hakurei Barrier helps buffing the team's defenses. Reimu is possibly the best character in the game overall, and whether she lives or dies generally makes the difference between winning or losing battles.
Nitori: By far the best nuke in the game, and it's non-elemental to boot. Only Flandre, Yuuka, and Marisa can outdamage her on a single blow, but their horrid drawbacks don't allow any of them from spamming their attacks like Nitori can. Optical Camouflage counteracts the low delay of her Megawatt Gun. Her bulk isn't great, but still okay for the best damage dealer in the game.
Rinnosuke: The MANnosuke is an impressively well-rounded char. World Shaking Military Rule is a great opening move against nearly every boss, and Rinnosuke's high speed often allows him to act before his allies. Shining Stars of Traumerei can deal as much damage as the likes of Youmu or Yuugi, while Start of Heavenly Demise is a good backup non-elemental option. What defines Kourin, however, is his ability to act both as a real nuke AND a real tank, while boasting what possibly is the best opening in the game. He might technically be master of none (he doesn't hit as hard as Nitori, nor does he tank as well as Keine), but his combination of feats actually makes him a master in a way no other char in the game can possibly emulate.
Keine: If Reimu is the best healer, and Nitori is the best nuker, Keine is arguably the best tank in the game. No, she's not as self-sufficient as Meiling, but she has incredibly powerful buffing options for keeping your entire frontline fully loaded. And, as if this wasn't enough, she has defensive stats that (when taking levelling rates into account) eclipse every other tank in the game except Meiling herself - while still boasting a surprisingly decent speed stat. Tanks are defined by their ability to balance bulkiness (being able to take the boss's attacks) with efficiency (making good use of all those turns they get), and no char gets that balance as well as Keine does.
Shikieiki: Shikieki's Last Judgment is simply amazing. Not only it hits about as hard as Youmu's Slash of Eternity (and noticeably harder than Yuugi or Suika), but it is fully defense-piercing AND non-elemental. By virtue of this alone, Shikieiki is the only char on the entire team who can ALWAYS deal solid damage on bosses, no matter what. This is why every competitive team should have a slot for her.

RANK A (These characters excel at what they do in such a way that they're an easy fit on any possible team. They have very few flaws, if at all):

Youmu: Has the 3rd strongest, drawback-less nuke in the game after Nitori and Suwako (and, unlike Suwako's, her nuke is non-elemental), coupled with excellent HP and defense which allows her to stay in the tank spot comfortably when needed.
Yuugi: One of the best single-target nukes in the game (though not as strong as Youmu, Nitori, or Shikieiki), along with high HP and Def which allows her to tank if needed. Has a less powerful, but still good option for non-elemental damage. Irremovable Shackles can cause PAR and PSN, but unlike some other PAR-inducing moves its damage output is terrible.
Ran: One of the best tanks you can choose from. Her AoE buffs are a bit on the slow side, but can buff even the backlines, making her a great choice for tanking bosses in the first few turns. Her bulk isn't amazing for a tank, but still more than enough with HP investment.
Flandre: Lavatein is great for farming purposes, while Starbow Break does solid damage to bosses, is non-elemental, and has a very fast delay for an attack hitting almost as hard as Yuugi's Knockout in Three Steps. Despite SB's recoil, Flandre's high HP allows her to stay on front and keep attacking, but she's heavily reliant on Reimu to be effective - no other healer can realistically keep her up as well as the rest of the front line. That being said, Reimu is a char you'd want to use anyway, so don't let it deter you from trying Flandre either.
Yuyuko: By far the strongest mage in the game. Her stats are nothing to write home about, but Saigyouji Flawless Nirvana is simply amazing, with a crazy multiplier and a surprisingly low delay for such a nuke, making Yuyuko's "actual" speed almost on par with the likes of Nitori. And while her physical bulk is average, her magical bulk is great too, allowing her to tank MAG attacks better than the likes of Youmu or Yuugi even when factoring HP.
Mystia: Possibly one of the most underrated characters in the game. Her stats may appear mediocre, but her excellent levelling rate goes a long way balancing them out. For a low-delay attack, Ill-Starred Dive is incredibly powerful (especially if compared to something like Cat's Walk or Flight of Idaten). But Mystia's real claim of fame is her Midnight Chorus Master. Not only it hits as hard as you'd expect a good nuke to (and is non-elemental to boot), but also comes with a PAR chance attached, allowing Mystia to suddenly turn the tables on nearly any opponent with a little luck.

RANK B (These characters are very good at what they do, but have some shortcomings which might hamper their usage. They can still be accomodated on even the most competitive of teams, but they require some care in the team lineup or their usage):

Minoriko: Possibly the best healer after Reimu. Wish for Abudant Harvest may be single-target, but its short delay allow Minoriko to keep multiple chars topped in a way other single-target healers cannot. Falling Leaves of Madness deals chip but useful and fast damage, while Promise to the Wheat God keeps tanks buffed. Minoriko's bulk is kinda mediocre, but her levelling rate and excellent healing skills make up for it somewhat. Still, more of a backup to Reimu than anything.
Rumia: The only other real AoE healer besides Reimu. Sadly, even with solid investment, Demarcation rarely heals more than 30-35% of the HP of a nuker, and is absolutely incapable of keeping tanks topped in the same way Reimu or Minoriko can. On the plus side, however, Moonlight Ray actually allows Rumia to dish out solid damage for a healer, though she won't get many opportunities to do so due to her need to constantly spam Demarcation to keep up with most bosses.
Komachi: Impressive bulk thanks to her HP score, and surprising (but not actually excellent) single-target damage output with Scythe that Chooses the Dead. Good choice if you want a tank who can actually deal damage (and do some minor status support if needed), though there're probably better options for damage dealing.
Suwako: Strongest drawback-less nuke in the game after Nitori. Unfortunately, held back by subpar bulk. However, if you can keep her alive, she's easily one of the best nukes in the game - though it should be noted that, unlike many other nukers, her nuke is not non-elemental.
Suika: Similar to Yuugi in many respects - same multiplier on her nuke, same HP growth. Unfortunately, the differences - slower levelling rate (compounded by slightly lower ATK), lack of non-elemental backup attack - can't be ignored. While Suika can work as a nuke (and her Missing Power buff becomes slightly more effective the less Speed counts at higher levels), she still is a fair bit worse than Yuugi and other major nukes.
Kaguya: Hourai Barrage hits very hard, and ignores defenses to boot (though, unlike Eiki's Last Judgment, is not non-elemental). Buddha's Stone Bowl also can help if you need an emergency second heal from Reimu. Unfortunately, all this is set back by an awful physical bulk, even worse than Suwako's, which makes keeping Kaguya's alive against the likes of WINNER a chore (and a magical bulk which is still significantly worse than Yuyuko's). Kaguya is not unusable, and the reward for doing so is significant, but the risk factor is too big to ignore.
Yukari: Great defenses for a tank, a good defensive AoE buff, and a great support option in Yukari's Spiriting Away. Unfortunately, however, the way Speed scales in the game weakens its effectiveness, especially compared to actual offensive buffing. Still a good option for tanking, especially at lower levels.
Renko: Another good, purely-supportive tank. Sadly, even at high speeds, the delay cutting effect of Charge is too large of a flaw to ignore, but its ability to instantly top the buff levels of the entire frontline shouldn't be underestimate - and when she's not busy buffing, Galaxy Stop is a good way to fish for a PAR chance.
Maribel: Her stats may not look impressive, but Overflowing Unnatural Power is so good that she actually can be usable. Not the strongest damage dealer in the game, but even at high levels, her superior speed and low delay allow her to deal overall as much damage as a medium-power nuke like Yuugi or Suika. Furthermore, her debuffs may be weak, but she gets multiple opportunity to apply them and stack them to decent levels.
Kanako: Unlike other middling, bulky mages, Kanako actually has a real nuke in Beautiful Spring Like Suiga. While she won't do as much damage as the likes of Yuyuko, this is somewhat countered by her excellent bulk, which allows her to stay out comfortably in a way few other similarly offensive chars can imitate. That being said, she's no Rinnosuke - while her combination of bulk and offensive potential is interesting, she doesn't really shine at neither, and doesn't have anything other than damage to bring to the table (furthermore, her non-elemental option is very mediocre).
Yuuka: Master Spark is great for farming purposes - and unlike Marisa, she's not limited to single-target encounters. She's also far bulkier than the other Master Spark user, and more than capable of staying on the frontlines. Unfortunately, Flower Shot's damage output is kinda pathetic even when factoring her low delay, meaning that she can't work as well as Flandre on boss fights (though, at least, she's less dependant on heals to do so).

RANK C (These characters are not completely outclassed, but it's hard to justify their inclusion on a team because what they are capable of isn't particularly useful):

Marisa: Master Spark is useful for farming most 30F encounters (except those involving multiple enemies like Eientei), and no character can muster as much damage as Marisa in a single blow. However, her horrible bulk, combined with Master Spark wiping her SP whenever she uses it (and her other spellcards having awful multipliers) means Marisa is of little to no use in prolonged battles like WINNER.
Sakuya: Lunar Dial is just about all she has going for her, but speed buffing becomes progressively less powerful as your level increases. Her damage output is pitiful, and she has no other relevant options to bring to the table.
Meiling: She can tank hits, but she can do literally nothing else well. Healer is almost useless once every char has status immunity in the late-game. Mountain Breaker has good piercing factor but bad ATK multiplier, which is not helped by her mediocre ATK value. Colorful Rain is good, but again, this only helps her tanking hits, and there're plenty of chars who can actually support their team (or doing relevant damage) while doing so.
Cirno: Can debuff speed faster than any other char, but useless otherwise. Bad bulk, bad damage output, and there are tons of better characters who can deliver paralysis.
Aya: Pretty much in the same boat as Sakuya. Good if you need SPD buffs, but SPD buffs are not as good in the lategame, and that's all Aya can really do compared to other chars.
Iku: One of the best single-target offensive buffs in the game. However, still pales in comparison to the likes of Keine, who can keep up an entire frontline buffed. Furthermore, Iku's damage output is mediocre, and her bulk is good but not outstanding.
Sanae: Yasaka's Divine Wind is a powerful heal, but unfortunately its high delay means Sanae has a hard time solo-healing the front line against hard-hitting bosses. Miracle Fruit is a decent single-target buff, but, again, there are better options for buffing as well. Her bulk is mediocre, and her damage output even more so.
Reisen: Her damage output is mediocre, even with Grand Patriot's Elixir - meaning that, if you use her, you're basically using her for Discarder's debuff. Even so, Maribel is probably a better option, unless you really need your debuffs to hit reliably.
Eirin: Hourai Elixir's %-based heal, overhealing, and high delay means that Eirin, like Sanae, is good at keeping up tanks but can't support a front line on her own. Astronomical Entombing does decent damage for a healer, though.
Tenshi: Her bulk is quite average despite her high defensive stats, and her damage output is just sad. Useful for removing debuffs, but can't do so reliably enough to easily justify a team slot.
Rin: A bit better than Cirno, in that Blazing Wheel can actually deal good damage, but still a bad choice for similar reasons - bad bulk, less use for fast switchers in the late-game, lack of other relevant options.
Utsuho: Her only perk, over other similar good mages with bad spellcards, is Giga Flare's piercing effect. Besides that, though, there's little Utsuho does that can't be accomplished by other, stronger characters.

RANK D (These chars are almost strictly outclassed in every relevant way; they should basically never be a serious consideration for any competitive team):

Remilia: Spear the Gugnir's multiplier is absolutely horrible, and she has nothing else to boast about. Buff support is easy enough to come by that Curse of Vlad Tepes hardly counts (and, even so, there are better self-buffing characters too). As a tank, there are way better choices - whether you want a damaging tank or a supporting tank.
Patchouli: Horrid bulk means she has a hard time taking blows from nearly anything. Her damage output is mediocre, due to the low multipliers of her spellcards. If you really want to use a slow magic attacker, both Kaguya and Yuyuko are far better alternatives.
Chen: Awful bulk which undermines what she's better at - switching chars around fast. As levels and Speed values increase, this niche becomes less useful too. Mystia can do the same thing better in almost everyway. Low spellcard multipliers and mediocre Atk (despite levelling rate) negate any attempt to use Chen efficiently as a damage dealer
Alice: Decent stats, but subpar damage formulas. Not as bad as Patchouli, but still cleanly outclassed by more powerful mages.
Wriggle: If you really want a char who can use Poison, use Yuugi or Shikieiki. Not much else to say about.
Mokou: Another mage with decent stats, but mediocre spellcards multipliers. Not much else to say.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure if a similar ranking could be done for LoT2 chars, even once we get to see the end-game, due to how more synergy-dependant they are (whereas LoT1 chars were much more easily gaugeable on their own). But, if I used the same criteria as above, I doubt I'd end up putting any char in Rank D or S, in the end. Sure, there are some chars which are better than others, but I can't think of a single char who's truly outclassed at EVERYTHING - nor can I think of a char who's so good that she should be an automatic entry on any team (even Nitori slowly loses gas as levels raise, and I wouldn't rule out the possibility that, in the long run, a team with well chosen kin synergies could end up slotting her out with no regrets).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on July 28, 2018, 02:23:43 PM
Incidentally, this is a "damage potential" estimation I once made to help me selecting my LoT1 characters. It notably doesn't include a few chars, like Reimu, Marisa, and Yuuka (it does include Remilia and Iku - they're just below Utsuho ^^). It also doesn't factor speed/delay/buffs (like Maribel's Overflowing Unnatural Power) either, and calculates the opponent's defense as 0 (which might sound crazy, but actually doesn't change calcs much in the lategame). It only counts ATK/MAG (adjusted by library levels), the multiplier of the character's best move (such as Lavatein for Flandre, Knockout in Three Steps for Yuugi, etc.), and levelling rate. I still think it might be useful knowledge, though:

(https://i.imgur.com/OHkggH8.png)

(incidentally, if calced with Starbow Break, iirc Flandre gets around 2.5 million potential, around the same level as Yuugi and co.)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on July 28, 2018, 04:22:33 PM
Well, it's definitely a list focused more around Winner farming :V It's interesting to see how things are considered that far in the game, though. For example, I compiled a similar list after playing the game 3 times (once on Special Disk) and I'm a heavy numbercruncher and wiki trawler, and there's a lot of differences. (although the main concept is about the same) For example, over the course of my Special Disk playthrough, Mannosuke was actually kind of disappointing because his damage is rather eh and his tanking was similar. He did both adequately enough, but Alice actually surpassed him in both defensive stat total and in damage. (especially when re-evaluated around Winner time; I used both for all of Plus Disk) Of course, she doesn't have his buff, and his composite attack may become much better in mega-winner who probably has pitifully irrelevant defenses . Of course, there's also that many characters are really good for much of the game but obsolete in the end, like Chen who has insane dps that falls off with speed scaling (and the added difficulty in keeping her alive). And Wriggle's poison damage is insanely good in maingame, but poison is utterly useless in Plus.

I'm assuming also that slow-level, high-base characters in general just come out ahead in mega winner level territory, because you get higher numbers off of some than I expected, mainly Rinnosuke.

Aya's the Chen of Plus Disk imo tho, Peerless Wind God is REALLY good... until you farm winner enough times that high speed is totally irrelevant (at which point, yes, you just want big nukes). Sadly, half the plus bosses have high WND affinity. She -still- did similarly as much damage as my other attackers on bosses with like 150~200 affinity though. Seriously.

Although I'd still wager a few changes in your list. For example, at the point of Winner, the Mind stat can be practically replaced by pumping up affinities. Especially due to farming off the major affinity equipment from, hibachi I think? It's been awhile. Yuugi is about as tanky as Meiling, but in a full atk build, and affinities replaces her poor MND stat entirely. IIRC I watched a 256 winner kill video and was like, "Huh, but I only killed him 10 times and think my affinity stats were higher than that!" XD This is probably also why you rank Keine higher than Iku; for much of the game, Iku's insanely high MND stat is a key selling point, as MND-Iku has comparable amounts to a MAG-build Patchouli. But high MND is really not that valuable in Winner farming because affinity. You can probably also afford to keep out more offensive characters vs. supports and tanks, making a multi-target buff more useful. Generally throughout the game you need a big tank at the left, one support, and one or two nukers at a time (often needing to swap out a high-delay attack) so Iku's big single target is really all you need. I was excited to try Keine and her defenses were... certainly passable enough as a second slot tank, but not particularly impressive either. She really would have been vastly more useful during the main game, but she comes in so late.

Anyway, enough rambling; I'm going to just upload my own tier list as it was years ago! --->    https://pastebin.com/q3WHDKEQ
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on July 28, 2018, 06:30:05 PM
Well, it's definitely a list focused more around Winner farming :V It's interesting to see how things are considered that far in the game, though. For example, I compiled a similar list after playing the game 3 times (once on Special Disk) and I'm a heavy numbercruncher and wiki trawler, and there's a lot of differences. (although the main concept is about the same) For example, over the course of my Special Disk playthrough, Mannosuke was actually kind of disappointing because his damage is rather eh and his tanking was similar. He did both adequately enough, but Alice actually surpassed him in both defensive stat total and in damage. (especially when re-evaluated around Winner time; I used both for all of Plus Disk) Of course, she doesn't have his buff, and his composite attack may become much better in mega-winner who probably has pitifully irrelevant defenses . Of course, there's also that many characters are really good for much of the game but obsolete in the end, like Chen who has insane dps that falls off with speed scaling (and the added difficulty in keeping her alive). And Wriggle's poison damage is insanely good in maingame, but poison is utterly useless in Plus.

I wouldn't say it's focused SOLELY on WINNER farming. It's true that most of my evaluations start becoming more and more true as you progress through WINNER wins, but you can already start seeing signs of it as soon as you start farming 30F (so, around level 450+). As far as Rinnosuke goes, I think it depends on how you handle library numbers. Namely, Rinnosuke has much cheaper library levels than the likes or Minoriko or Rumia, because in LoT1 (for some reason) library level costs are inversely proportional to the stat score itself - the higher your stat growth is, the lower it costs to increase it even more with skill points. I generally made it a rule to "harmonize" library levels around their costs, rather than the actual levels, in order to spend skill points more efficiently. This basically ends up exacerbating stat differences significantly, making chars like Rinnosuke actually shine as they're supposed to and making things like Youmu's magical bulk vs Yuyuko's magical bulk actually apparent, even at very high levels.

As for Wriggle... Wriggle's problem is not simply that Poison is bad, but that there are other characters - such as Yuugi - that can apply PSN as well as being useful, whereas PSN is all Wriggle has going for her. Sure, Wriggle's PSN application chance might be higher, but unlike in LoT2 where it runs out quickly, in LoT1 PSN lasts for a long time, especially at Plus Disc levels.

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I'm assuming also that slow-level, high-base characters in general just come out ahead in mega winner level territory, because you get higher numbers off of some than I expected, mainly Rinnosuke.

As I noted above, it has more to do with how I spend skill points. Indeed, since the xp required to level up caps at around level 2900 (which, btw, is STILL not enough to kill WINNER beyond 200th time or so), characters with a faster level rate actually start growing a bit faster in the very end.

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Aya's the Chen of Plus Disk imo tho, Peerless Wind God is REALLY good... until you farm winner enough times that high speed is totally irrelevant (at which point, yes, you just want big nukes). Sadly, half the plus bosses have high WND affinity. She -still- did similarly as much damage as my other attackers on bosses with like 150~200 affinity though. Seriously.

Have you tried Mystia instead? Sure, she might be a bit slower, but her own fast-hitting attack at least is non-elemental (and has a slightly better multiplier), which I'd happily take over Aya once I start farming 30F with its incredible diversity of enemies.

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Although I'd still wager a few changes in your list. For example, at the point of Winner, the Mind stat can be practically replaced by pumping up affinities. Especially due to farming off the major affinity equipment from, hibachi I think? It's been awhile. Yuugi is about as tanky as Meiling, but in a full atk build, and affinities replaces her poor MND stat entirely. IIRC I watched a 256 winner kill video and was like, "Huh, but I only killed him 10 times and think my affinity stats were higher than that!" XD This is probably also why you rank Keine higher than Iku; for much of the game, Iku's insanely high MND stat is a key selling point, as MND-Iku has comparable amounts to a MAG-build Patchouli. But high MND is really not that valuable in Winner farming because affinity. You can probably also afford to keep out more offensive characters vs. supports and tanks, making a multi-target buff more useful. Generally throughout the game you need a big tank at the left, one support, and one or two nukers at a time (often needing to swap out a high-delay attack) so Iku's big single target is really all you need. I was excited to try Keine and her defenses were... certainly passable enough as a second slot tank, but not particularly impressive either. She really would have been vastly more useful during the main game, but she comes in so late.

I didn't mention affinities, because I just took as a given that you'll get all your chars at 500 affinity (which is trivially easy in LoT1, considering 3X MGL gives you +300 to affinities, meaning you only need to up your levels to 200). Though, even then, as long as you give library levels proportionately to stat growths (as I've explained above), you'll still see significant differences between, say, how Shikieki or Yuyuko tank WINNER's Wand attacks and how Youmu or Yuugi do.

As for Iku vs Keine... the fact is that (1) Keine has much better physical bulk, and the strongest attacks which tend to hit your tank at those levels (like Ringil) are physical, and (2) Keine's ability to buff the entire frontline instead of one char at a time makes a large difference when you're running a frontline of Keine/nuker/nuker/Reimu, as you probably should once you're that high in level. I know many of you seem to prefer focusing on one attacker only, but that's a strategy better suited for low level fights or fights vs high defense enemies. Heck, there are times where, if I'm fully buffed via Ran, I just put Youmu or Yuugi in the tank slot, and Nitori + Shikieki or Yuyuko in the other slots, with Reimu keeping them up while I bombard the opponent repeatedly with nukes (sometimes, if I'm rushing, I replace even Reimu with a 4th nuker).

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Anyway, enough rambling; I'm going to just upload my own tier list as it was years ago! --->    https://pastebin.com/q3WHDKEQ

Uh, I wonder if you have actually ran damage calculations with some of these chars - I mean, under which conditions would Remilia even remotely outdamage Rinnosuke? Even Scarlet Gold Sword easily outdamages Spear the Gugnir... Also, you don't seem to account at all for the durability of characters in your tier list - even something like WINNER's Wand can near floor the likes of Kaguya or Patchouli (despite their seemingly good MND) - I'd rather use Yuyuko who not only is much bulkier than both of them but also heftly outdamages them except perhaps against very high-MND opponents like the 28F boss. But once you reach 30F, even high-MND opponents like Tenshi will take more damage from Yuyuko.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on July 28, 2018, 09:42:40 PM
Incidentally, this is a "damage potential" estimation I once made to help me selecting my LoT1 characters. It notably doesn't include a few chars, like Reimu, Marisa, and Yuuka (it does include Remilia and Iku - they're just below Utsuho ^^). It also doesn't factor speed/delay/buffs (like Maribel's Overflowing Unnatural Power) either, and calculates the opponent's defense as 0 (which might sound crazy, but actually doesn't change calcs much in the lategame). It only counts ATK/MAG (adjusted by library levels), the multiplier of the character's best move (such as Lavatein for Flandre, Knockout in Three Steps for Yuugi, etc.), and levelling rate. I still think it might be useful knowledge, though:
<snip image>
Indeed this is a very useful knowledge (and what do you mean that Marisa isn't even in this list? ??? Is she in Bottom 10 list or something? Or you didn't calculate her usefulness?)

Would be nice to see similar table for LoT2 :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on July 28, 2018, 10:24:27 PM
Indeed this is a very useful knowledge (and what do you mean that Marisa isn't even in this list? ??? Is she in Bottom 10 list or something? Or you didn't calculate her usefulness?)

Would be nice to see similar table for LoT2 :)

I didn't calculate her because, while her Master Spark's "potential" would prolly exceed even Flandre's Lavatein, the rest of her package is way too subpar - similar reason why I didn't calculate Yuuka.

As for Reimu, well... back when I wrote this, I did not expect that her damage output would be actually decent, if I redid the calculations today I'd surely include her.

For LoT2, well... it's much harder. Synergies mean that you can't calculate a character's potential on its own. You need to calculate different combinations, compare the "overall" damage output of the squad, and see what's the best combo. Even then, though, it's really hard to quantify. Furthermore, there are some benefits which are simply too "intangible" to quantify. I'm sure that with enough math jumbo it might be "solvable", but that goes way beyond the sort of effort I'd put into a game :-)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on July 28, 2018, 11:09:41 PM
I was working on calculating character damage potential for Labyrinth of Touhou 2 back when 1.103 was the latest update, but I gave up around Satori (doing them in in-game order). There are a lot of variables so I generally just used the most favorable ones. I did complete Satori's full list of available spell cards though, minus Hexer/Toxicologist spell cards. Of course, I also did Iku and Tenshi.

Might be something worth resuming, I stopped doing it because I didn't think it'd be useful to anyone, but maybe that's not the case.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on July 29, 2018, 06:01:34 AM
edit:woah I haven't had a real lot1 balance discussion in a long time I PROBABLY GOT CARRIED AWAY

I wouldn't say it's focused SOLELY on WINNER farming. It's true that most of my evaluations start becoming more and more true as you progress through WINNER wins, but you can already start seeing signs of it as soon as you start farming 30F (so, around level 450+).
Yeah... which is only one floor out of the game. A well made team can -beat- winner at 450~500, already. Few people play past that point, and many aren't changing their team much at the 30f+ point. When making a tier list, I wouldn't significantly consider this part of the game at all, unless the list was specifically aimed at winner farming.

I do try to remember that your tier list is focused around "lategame" performance, but if you consider that to mean "plus disk performance", it still seems heavily slanted towards winner over anything else; my list on the other hand accounts for most of the game where you have the freedom to choose between most of the cast, so maybe past the middle of main game I guess?

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As far as Rinnosuke goes, I think it depends on how you handle library numbers. [snip] This basically ends up exacerbating stat differences significantly, making chars like Rinnosuke actually shine as they're supposed to and making things like Youmu's magical bulk vs Yuyuko's magical bulk actually apparent, even at very high levels.

As for Wriggle... Wriggle's problem is not simply that Poison is bad, but that there are other characters - such as Yuugi - that can apply PSN as well as being useful, whereas PSN is all Wriggle has going for her. Sure, Wriggle's PSN application chance might be higher, but unlike in LoT2 where it runs out quickly, in LoT1 PSN lasts for a long time, especially at Plus Disc levels.
I already did that; opening my game back and up matching all their stats to 80k cost (50k on speed because money >.>; ) Rinno's stats are only on level with Alice. About equal if you average def/mnd/hp, equivalent offenses but Alice has -significantly- better attack formulas for non-zero-defense opponents. And she's not exactly a particularly durable or strong character. I'm not saying your results are wrong, but I think that the kind of stats you have at 255-winner-kills levels scale... somewhat differently. You said yourself that after a certain point, everyone hits the max amount of exp per level- as the slowest leveler in the game, Rinnosuke would certainly benefit more than others, wouldn't he? In general high-exp-cost levelers might come out better than faster, lower-base levelers. 97% of the game is done under lv300, god only knows what happens at lv3000...
Stats-> Rinno: http://puu.sh/B4VQY.png Alice: http://puu.sh/B4VTM.png They're both at lv253 on most stats, coincidentally, as they have the same library level rate (for Alice's better stats like MAG/MND at least).

And, Wriggle's problem is -absolutely- that poison is bad. :V Parallaxal actually did a video where he aggressively applied poison for an entire long postgame bossfight and then went back and counted damage numbers, and the poison damage totalled at... about one Megawatt worth. It was not a short boss, so that was utterly pathetic. Poison is, however, excellent and worthwhile before Plus Disk. As for using Wriggle for it, all ailments have identical accuracy in LoT1 (other than DTH) but I think the consensus had been that higher strength poison dealt more damage. This was a VERY long time ago, mind you, and it's also very hard to test poison damage in LoT1 in general, so I can't guarantee this was accurate information and whether people had actually read about or tested it. I feel like it was the case though???

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Have you tried Mystia instead? Sure, she might be a bit slower, but her own fast-hitting attack at least is non-elemental (and has a slightly better multiplier), which I'd happily take over Aya once I start farming 30F with its incredible diversity of enemies.
Mystia is very excellent at clearing randoms. Her good level rate makes her stats passable enough to work for bosses as well, but she's really nothing special there; just good enough you're not disappointed in using a slot on her. Aya, on the other hand, RIPS through bosses once she has the SP to spam Peerless Wind God; maintaining a permanent 100% speed buff makes it blazingly fast, and I recall considering her damage-over-time on the level of Flandre or greater- enough that it was -still- competitive vs. most of my attackers on WND-resistant bosses. (Not the 500 affinity Serpent of Chaos, but...)

Aya and Mystia don't even factor into 30f. The frontline was Yukari, Nitori, Iku and Kaguya, in that order. I tailored their Speed to the correct amounts, and it'd go something like Stickleback->Megawatt->Stone Bowl->Megawatt->Spiriting Away->Megawatt->Stickleback->Hourai Barrage, if they lived that long. Or, Nitori's alltarget attacks if necessary. There's no chain bonus in LoT1 so it was fine to go back home now and then for SP. Chen was a run-away for awhile due to speed, but for the most part, this utterly annihilated 30F. I don't recall how long it took to work perfectly but I think I was farming 30F rather than liliths, before I hit 400, and as my level rose I was able to take out steps to make it faster- I recall using Yuyuko in the lineup eventually.

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I didn't mention affinities, because I just took as a given that you'll get all your chars at 500 affinity (which is trivially easy in LoT1, considering 3X MGL gives you +300 to affinities, meaning you only need to up your levels to 200). Though, even then, as long as you give library levels proportionately to stat growths (as I've explained above), you'll still see significant differences between, say, how Shikieki or Yuyuko tank WINNER's Wand attacks and how Youmu or Yuugi do.
So easy that characters like Youmu or Yuugi can easily receive hundreds of extra affinity past 500 to make up the difference! Sure, they might not tank it as well, but more than well enough that the difference really doesn't matter. When I was originally thinking about farming Winner I tailored up Yuugi to replace Meiling in the first slot and she was a champ. Ultimately though, the fight was way too long and boring to farm. I commend you for sticking it out to 255 wins, though.

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As for Iku vs Keine... the fact is that (1) Keine has much better physical bulk, and the strongest attacks which tend to hit your tank at those levels (like Ringil) are physical, and (2) Keine's ability to buff the entire frontline instead of one char at a time makes a large difference when you're running a frontline of Keine/nuker/nuker/Reimu, as you probably should once you're that high in level.
As I said before- this is boiling down to "Keine is better at Winner farming", which she certainly is. Iku's stellar MND doesn't matter when you have 500+ affinities to resist all magical attacks, and for most of the Winner fight there's little reason not to have as much offense out as you can manage. Winner's fight design is... not like most bosses in the game, long but mostly non-dangerous until the end, and that plus wanting many kills means you try to pack in a lot of damage rather than playing carefully to ensure a single win.

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Uh, I wonder if you have actually ran damage calculations with some of these chars - I mean, under which conditions would Remilia even remotely outdamage Rinnosuke? Even Scarlet Gold Sword easily outdamages Spear the Gugnir... Also, you don't seem to account at all for the durability of characters in your tier list - even something like WINNER's Wand can near floor the likes of Kaguya or Patchouli (despite their seemingly good MND) - I'd rather use Yuyuko who not only is much bulkier than both of them but also heftly outdamages them except perhaps against very high-MND opponents like the 28F boss. But once you reach 30F, even high-MND opponents like Tenshi will take more damage from Yuyuko.
Again, you're quoting Winner examples  :V Kaguya annihilates random fights with her immensely powerful and defense-ignoring alltargets, does high damage on bosses, and has good utility in Stone Bowl, and LoT1 is a glass cannon's dream game until late Plus. Patchouli is vastly easier to use than in LoT2, as there are very few physical all-targets (that aren't a survivable row-target) and she's got the MND to survive most composite attacks with just a little extra investment into it (whether it's good MND gear, a little extra MND library'ing, or a few MND levelups). No, she doesn't work well against Winner, but she's great until 30F and that's like 97% of the game content. She'll eat the Rankain from Kedamagrammaton for zero damage without it being debuffed, which was important before people realized you can debuff it after the first rankain charge... oops.

There's actually a surprising number of bosses that completely lack any physical damage, for that matter. Bosses with mostly physical moves, on the other hand, are pretty rare. Patch does start getting kinda slow around the end of maingame, admittedly. At that point it has to be remembered that my list tries to account for most of the game- but she's still fully viable, unlike characters like Chen and Wriggle who fall off -hard- in Plus.

About specifically Remilia, Rinnosuke should (slightly) outdamage her assuming he always has proper buff support, but Remilia can cover all her own stats, has significantly more HP, and levels slightly faster. Remilia's buff support doesn't matter that much at the point of Winner, but Remilia can still top herself off more than your other frontliners to maintain a higher average buff amount for her defenses. And honestly, they've got the same base attack and similar formulas unless Rinnosuke can hit a weakness- SGS is a little better than Gungnir, mostly in defense piercing, but Remi also levels slightly faster. Composite damage formula on his other attacks is unfortunate when you aren't in 255 winner world, I recall Traumerei often hitting for same/less as Scarlet Gold unless his buffs were near max. I'd still say she's mostly outclassed in plus disk by other characters, but I wouldn't name Rinnosuke as the one to do it. She might have been ranked slightly too high on my list?

Yuyuko is really, really good. Like... after beating Shikieki on 26f. But let's face it, that's dreadfully late in the game, and she's absolute dead weight on SPI-resistant bosses like Shiki and Serpent of Chaos, and she doesn't have the SP to be a good character until that point in the game either. She's pretty poor if she isn't spamming SFN. I did rank her as A-tier after that point, though, but the fact that it's over halfway through POSTgame is significant.

Also honestly I'm really not a fan of World Shaking Military Rule. It's good, for opening on Winner, where all the strategies are different and you want fast damage and can totally just sit your frontline out as Reimu tanks and heals them. It's good for farming 20F fights before you're at the level to handle them. I -don't- like using it in almost any other situation, because then Rinnosuke is stuck in his spot until he dies, and it's not that hard to buff people by the time you get him.

If I commented on your list otherwise, it'd probably be Kanako. I tried to use her before, and her poor HP stat made her oft-praised bulk rather laughable. Think Remilia, but with a third of her HP cut off. Her damage is also pretty underwhelming. Her only claim to fame is having the only CLD nuke in the game, the most common weakness of LoT1 bosses. Unfortunately, that means she's mediocre against every boss that -isn't- weak to CLD.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on July 29, 2018, 06:32:16 AM
Yeah I don't think its great to base all balance opinions of the characters off of Winner farming viability or super super late game usage in general. It's alright to take it into account but to say that "There were a lot of characters which were simply outclassed in nearly every possible way" when you're dealing with the most inflated stats in the game is a bit much.

The balance for maingame is completely different, and even post/early-mid plus is vastly different to 30F levels. The Tierlist changes a lot depending on how far in you are, and a lot of those people you've put at lower tiers can suffice well enough for maingame.

Of course though there are people who pretty much outclass others entirely, but during the duration of maingame its totally workable to use those who are outclassed because the gap isn't really that wide. And because there's only so many different actions that they can do it's only better for the viability of subbing in someone else who does the same thing, rather than subbing someone else in and missing out on an important unique ability in 2 which may also just make that one person soo much better for that job in the first place. I feel like skills make the balance more all over the place honestly.

The biggest argument for some characters being deadweight for maingame is plus disk characters, especially ones like Utsuho who are just meh even during plus disc. But a lot of that is also just SP cost issues and less about survivability/damage capabilities.

The most important part of character balance in 1 is really just how you build them, especially with regards to level up bonuses, and while you'll have characters who are better at their jobs than others no matter what you do, it's totally possible for you to make up for a character not being as great in maingame by building them really well. There's no unique skills to muddy that and make someone just objectively the much better choice for whatever thing.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on July 29, 2018, 06:38:25 AM
Well, his tier list -is- specifically for lategame; so I don't take problems with stuff like Chen being in the bottom tier. It just seemed that it was less lategame and more "winner farming efficiency"  :V Meiling sure got hit hard, though. I actually considered Healer to become a decently usable heal in Plus Disk, and colorful rain doesn't go out of style, albiet less critical with Reimu/Rumia heals being more accessible and spammable. Her durability is only obsolete with when it comes to Winner, the boss of "kill it faster, not safer".

And gosh, yeah, Utsuho is probably the worst character in LoT1. Even Mokou at least is passable, it's just that she's outclassed by pretty much any other option. Utsuho is a nuker without a nuke.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on July 29, 2018, 09:46:49 AM
Sorry, I probably got either carried away or misunderstood, so I should clarify^^

Yes, I'm aware that my "tier list" is centered around 30F farming (though not specifically WINNER farming - much of my assessment works for Serpent of Chaos too, as well as the various V3 bosses). The reason why I brought it up is that a common complaint I read - even on the current thread - is that LoT1 was somehow more balanced than LoT2 currently is. That's absolutely not true from my experience. Perhaps in the early-mid game, yes, LoT1 had more variety of chars than LoT2 - though the more stringent requirements for bosses meant that you still had little room for changing, and LoT1 was much more punishing than LoT2 about that, what with the worse leaked XP mechanism and lack of reset options.

But in the late game, I found the situation to be actually reversed. In LoT1, the game polarizes around a few chars which are far and away better than the others. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that the best teams in LoT1's late-game (which, in this context, I assume to be 30F - that's the best comparison IMO to LoT2's post-27F meta) all include the same 5-6 chars, with the remaining slots being made out of a selection of 8-10 chars at most - thus leaving around half the roster in the dust. Conversely, in LoT2, I found that the way gems, library levels, and stat skill boosts work (as well as other quirks such as synergies, subclasses etc.) actually level out differences in the long run. Whereas a few chars, like Nitori or Yuugi, were impressively good at low-mid levels and a few others (like Youmu) were impressively bad, once you get past lvl 1000 the differences are much subtler. Even Nitori, often touted as the strongest LoT2 char, can be equaled in damage by any good nuker backed up by real family synergies, such as Kanako, Yukari, Tenshi and so on. And this, I think, is much preferable to how it was in LoT1.

You might be right to say that the pre-30F (or pre-27F) is 97% of the game for the majority of the players. But, personally, I'd rather have more constrained choices which slowly expand as the game progresses, than a variety of viable choices which eventually bottles up to a narrow selection in the end-game. Especially when the latter scenario is applied to a game which harshly punishes you for using "crutch characters" (chars good at low levels but bad at high levels) like Remilia.

EDIT: Also, please don't assume that the stat weights I assumed for my Excel sheet are based on lvl 3000 chars. I did the measuring on lvl 1100-1300 chars, and most of the "polarization" (like, say, Youmu's HP stat soaring above other nukers) starts to become visible as "early" as lvl 700.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on July 29, 2018, 10:40:56 AM
I agree with the basic point elminister's making. Labyrinth 1's more a game you kind of want to tierwhore on. Lab 2's much more forgiving and casual about it, it has its OP and sorta bad characters, but the gap is shorter between the two. Lab 1's a game I'd definitely "guide" a friend through to help them avoid wasting time on useless characters or worse, ruining them with bad levelup bonuses, but I'd let them find their own way through labyrinth 2, if that makes sense.

Also, super hyped about the coming update, even though I've already made up my mind that the ultra late game is the worst part of Labyrinth 2 by a noticeable margin. I already know I'm gonna have a lot to complain about in this last stretch of the game, and yet I'm thrilled to see it. Strange.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on July 29, 2018, 11:58:54 AM
Also, super hyped about the coming update, even though I've already made up my mind that the ultra late game is the worst part of Labyrinth 2 by a noticeable margin. I already know I'm gonna have a lot to complain about in this last stretch of the game, and yet I'm thrilled to see it. Strange.

That's sort of how I feel about it too^^ Unless HP and/or defensive values are raised to astronomical levels, I fail to see how anything 3peso comes up with could provide a decent challenge for my current team - which atm is almost lvl 3000 with most Mega boosts maxxed. I mean, one of the things I did like about LoT1's endgame was that it actually forced you to push the limits as much as possible, and even then, WINNER's fight always felt tactically interesting - maybe not as much as, say, Rinnosuke, but it still involved significant amounts of strategy, as you often had to react to multiple threats at once, often unpredictably so. WINNER in LoT2, on the other hand, felt a lot more tame in comparison. Sure, I was maybe a bit overlevelled, but he also felt a lot more predictable and abusable than he was in LoT1.

Also, what worries me is that I dunno if the game is equipped to handle such astronomically high stats. In LoT1, by level 3000, you were about ready to kill WINNER 256 (i.e. the last challenge in the game). In LoT2, you can reach lvl 3000 in a fraction of the time it takes to reach it in LoT1, and I'm not even sure it is gonna be the maximum amount of progression we can hit. Also, in LoT1, by level 3000, a buffed Yuuka's Master Spark would hit for around 170-180 million HP iirc. In LoT2, I can hit the same amount of damage with stuff like Yukari's Shikigami + with Murakumo's boost - I'm sure that if I used Marisa with full boosts and synergies I could almost break 1 billion damage at this point. What kind of boss is supposed to handle that?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on July 29, 2018, 12:22:35 PM
I'm still hanging out at about level 1100 myself. I didn't want to overlevel for the last bits, so after defeating King I pretty much put my file on stasis. I'd hate to grind and "prepare" for it and then discover the next boss is 1300 while my team's 1700.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: zeroxtime62 on July 29, 2018, 01:04:32 PM
I guess I'll just explain my thought process a bit about the character balance thing given that I was the one who most recently brought it up and it sort of expanded into an extremely in-depth analysis which I wasn't trying to suggest I did when stating my opinion. As initially stated in the post I made, everything was nothing more than how I "felt" while playing through both games. I've played LoT2 in its entirety twice minus the newest content patch and LoT once, so it's entirely possible I'm also just inherently biased towards the latter because I haven't re-experienced it and potentially picked up on problems I didn't perceive during my first playthrough.

Thoughts that were constantly in the back of my mind during my first playthrough of LoT2 were - Cirno looks fun but maybe she won't do a whole lot without other Team 9 members. Oh I want to use Tenshi so I guess I'll have to ditch someone else for Iku. I like Remilia but is there any reason to use her when Meiling seems to do what she does but better?

Granted these are just random examples but things like that were what I always had to question when playing through the game. When I played through LoT if I wanted to use Cirno, I'd just throw her in the party and I knew exactly what she would do without having to worry about who else I was using and if they were also in the front at the same time she was. I also think the problem is a bit exacerbated because some characters in LoT2 just seemed to pale in comparison to other characters who did the exact same thing and I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find the same problems in the first game but I didn't feel like I ever had an issue using whoever I wanted. Everyone felt like they had a specific role to do and to me, felt balanced enough among one another.

That's basically it. I wasn't trying to state facts to suggest that LoT is a better game than LoT2 or anything of the sort. I was just giving my thoughts for why I personally had more fun playing through it than the sequel.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on July 29, 2018, 03:21:19 PM
Also, what worries me is that I dunno if the game is equipped to handle such astronomically high stats. In LoT1, by level 3000, you were about ready to kill WINNER 256 (i.e. the last challenge in the game). In LoT2, you can reach lvl 3000 in a fraction of the time it takes to reach it in LoT1, and I'm not even sure it is gonna be the maximum amount of progression we can hit. Also, in LoT1, by level 3000, a buffed Yuuka's Master Spark would hit for around 170-180 million HP iirc. In LoT2, I can hit the same amount of damage with stuff like Yukari's Shikigami + with Murakumo's boost - I'm sure that if I used Marisa with full boosts and synergies I could almost break 1 billion damage at this point. What kind of boss is supposed to handle that?

Well, level 1400 ***WINNER*** has 647m HP (level 1000 was 330m, 1200 was 476m), while level 1280 King of Chaos had 666m HP. I'm pretty sure any bosses at level 3000 are gonna have a lot more than 1b HP. If you wanted, you could probably go into the Corridor, grind some floors (a lot of floors, given 251f is around 1100), and then check Keine's Library to see what kind of HP the Corridor bosses have in the 3000s.

Also wow, level 3000 huh? I stopped at 2000, maybe I should have been more ambitious in preparing for the update. I've mostly been killing time waiting for it, not like I couldn't have done more grinding.

I'm still hanging out at about level 1100 myself. I didn't want to overlevel for the last bits, so after defeating King I pretty much put my file on stasis. I'd hate to grind and "prepare" for it and then discover the next boss is 1300 while my team's 1700.

You can just level down characters anyway. 's what I'm planning on doing.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on July 29, 2018, 03:54:01 PM
I'm at like 1500, myself. Farmed gems on b11f for 300~ levels because goodness does it take a lot if you want to max all the relevant people. I don't think the final non-infinite content will go above 2000, though.

Even if the corridor stops at 999 and either becomes bossless or has bosses that don't scale well enough to matter, you can always dive down to increase enemy level, look for a risky floor, and grind up scaling exp for farming Winner. Corridor enemies don't rise in exp terribly fast, unfortunately, but lv3000+ enemies will still probably give more than the
heavenly touhou
random fights we're likely to see on the top floor's last section(s), and Risky floors make it much easier to find obscenely high level enemies in a reasonable timeframe.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on July 29, 2018, 04:48:36 PM
Well, I mostly pushed all the way to level 3000 because that's the level needed to be able to max all stat skill boosts on most characters (without using hundreds of Training Manuals), and because - frankly - it's so damn easy. I mean, even at level 2800 or so, 2 hours of farming on B11F give me around 150 levels... whereas in LoT1 I'd have gained 6-8 levels in the same timeframe from farming Serpent of Chaos. You know, just to put things in perspective^^

I honestly hope WINNER (or whatever else boss) is gonna go way beyond level 2000, given how easy xp farming is in this game compared to LoT1. I get it that level down is an option, but that'd still feel sort of like a bummer to me.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on July 29, 2018, 05:05:34 PM
Oh, I imagine the full version will have infinite scaling winner, since he already has a level scaling system! He probably just didn't want to encourage people to overlevel to the moon fighting Winner before the actual content for those level tiers is out.

I look forward to watching a lv25600 winner video  :getdown:
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Phen on July 31, 2018, 06:16:32 AM
Well, he just tweeted about a boss having so much hp it loops into negative values because it exceeded the 32 bit integer limit for hp (2.1 billion). I think it's just a display issue and the actual hp value can go up to 64bit limit (9.2 quint, that's 18 zeros). The timing of the tweet is nice since there is talk about worries that boss hp would be too low and apparently at least one boss will have over 2 billion hp. Although, he could also just be checking what kind of damage is deal-able at the level where you can max all the mega boosts.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on July 31, 2018, 08:35:49 AM
Since there's end-infinite-corridor and high scaling Winner to consider, those sorts of HP values are inevitable; King already has 666m hp so 2.1b is only a little over 3 times that. Although I wonder if we should start taking bets on whether he'll hit his goal of releasing before Etrian X?  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on July 31, 2018, 11:45:56 AM
Well, he just tweeted about a boss having so much hp it loops into negative values because it exceeded the 32 bit integer limit for hp (2.1 billion). I think it's just a display issue and the actual hp value can go up to 64bit limit (9.2 quint, that's 18 zeros).
Seeing as other values (character's stats) can already go into quintillions (screenshot proof here, you can see character's HP being over 300 billions): https://i.imgur.com/etMuNvi.png - if values can't fit in a single line, you will get empty line instead, but it is only cosmetic bug, your high stats are still there), I see no problem in increasing bosses' max HP to 64-bit limit too.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on July 31, 2018, 12:00:20 PM
Knowing that boss's HP values will exceed 2 billion is nice news, since most of my chars can already deal over 100 million damage with ease - as in, with minimal buffs. Normally, I'd worry about such values be so high as to be near unreadable, but thankfully in LoT2 we have the % HP bar for bosses so we don't need to wonder if we did 100 million or 1 billion damage^^
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on July 31, 2018, 02:30:06 PM
Yeah, that's one of my issues with the extreme late game in general. The more digits in that half-second display, the harder it is to parse how much damage was done. ESPECIALLY when hitting multiple targets at once, a 6-7 digit number hitting all four of your characters is simply harder to accurately read than a 4-5 digit one.

Not that it's impossible to work with, it's just slightly annoying to sometimes have to doubletake and figure out what just happened to who if you suspect you mistakenly identified a hundred thousand or one million. Feels like there could have been a solution to this, for example Borderlands will shorten extremely high numbers to read something like 1.65Mil instead of the whole number at once. Oh well. Little nitpicks.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on July 31, 2018, 02:39:11 PM
Not that it's impossible to work with, it's just slightly annoying to sometimes have to doubletake and figure out what just happened to who if you suspect you mistakenly identified a hundred thousand or one million. Feels like there could have been a solution to this, for example Borderlands will shorten extremely high numbers to read something like 1.65Mil instead of the whole number at once. Oh well. Little nitpicks.
I think that adding comma would be good. So you get 1,653,686 damage displayed. Maybe an option to increase delay, so you could see number AND ability which caused so much damage/healing.

What concerns shortening numbers, I am not fan of it. There are people like me, who care about each detail, and like to keep some good logs without rounded numbers. And it causes very big fluctuations when you try to analyze data.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on July 31, 2018, 11:24:50 PM
3peso's tweeted the patch will be out in a day or two! Although apparently there's a bug :V Still, hype.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: RegalStar on August 01, 2018, 02:26:38 AM
Well he wants to get on SQX as soon as it releases as much as I do, so I'm sure he'll work hard  :ohdear:

(Incidentally, I'm probably not going to be touching the new patch for a while because, you know, SQX  :V)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Yggdrasil on August 01, 2018, 08:41:32 AM
The update is now out. I can't read the patch notes unfortunately, since I can't read Japanese.

The only new area I can currently access at 180F Infinite Corridor is a new part of B11F and my first encounter is against 5 of the B11F enemies at once ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 01, 2018, 09:15:18 AM
Summary of the patch notes

-Red stones in 30f and B11f can be removed now
-After defeating the boss in the deepest part of the top floor and completely clearing the game, a means to re-obtain the boss' reward was prepared
-It is now possible to rematch the boss in the deepest part of 28f an unlimited number of times, and a relay point was added to make it easier to rematch
-Eliminated the floor limit of the Infinite Corridor
-Fixed typos in some equipment and spell descriptions
-Changed some enemy races
-Adjusted the status and AI behavior of some bosses
-Fixed the game terminating bug with Instant Attack
-Fixed the Return to Title bug that preserved consecutive battle bonuses
-Changed the Lv increase per floor on the Infinite Corridor from 1% per 1 floor to 0.5% per 1 floor
-Spear the Gungnir maxes out at Slv 9
-The bug with Ghastly Dream was fixed
-Skanda's Leg's SPD buff effect was increased, and the effect of the buff being increased after defeating an enemy was removed
-Fixed Beautiful Spring like Suiga so that it debuffs ATK/MAG
-Fixed Mesh of Light and Darkness' abnormally high SPD debuff
-Fixed Divine Grandson's Advent so that the intended change properly took effect
-Increased Miwa Plate Storm's Attack and Damage magnification, slightly increased delay
-Fixed the SIL effect on Kokoro's Four Humors Possession with the Pathos mask
-Fixed the bug with Precise Knowledge that sometimes eliminated enemy debuffs
-Bad Lady Scramble maxes out at Slv 9
-Fixed a bug with Enhanced Combat that caused the damage reduction effect to not be active
-Fixed the bug with Chireiden Party and Proof of Kinship
-Fixed a bug with Adversity and Adversity+ where the effect didn't work properly
-Buffed the effect of Vampiric Attack
-Added an additional effect to Blood of Superhuman
-Fixed a bug where Shinigami's Sickle wasn't working properly
-Fixed a bug where the effects of Hakugyokurou's Master and Servant and Shinigami and Enma didn't work properly
-Fixed a bug with Roc-Killing Fist where the activation rate did not increase with Koumakan members in the frontline
-Fixed a bug with Keypoints of Spirit where the counter would rise when striking enemy resistances
-Fixed a bug with Swordmaster's Spirit that caused HP to deplete when taking non-attack actions

uhh, Meiling's Chinese Girl's Qigong wasn't changed? And rip no Slv buff to Akyuu spells.

Ah, looking at Keine's Library, 250f Corridor boss had its HP increased a lot. Went from 8.2m at level 184 to 10.3m. I think some of the Corridor Touhou bosses also had some buffs, I don't remember their old HP though. Abyss Mokou has marginally more HP than Abyss Kaguya, the latter used to have a lot more. I'm pretty sure it was a buff to Abyss Mokou.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Yggdrasil on August 01, 2018, 10:01:06 AM
Also of note, the % bestiary achievements were changed I believe. I also unlocked two as soon as I started up the game. I believe the final one is for having 600 monsters logged.

EDIT: The 512F Infinite Corridor achievement was also changed to 640F?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 01, 2018, 10:10:31 AM
Rip Sakuya. Looks like the Extra Attack nerf's not been changed (at least looking at that changelog) and while all the other extra attackers can manage it, Sakuya seems like she's just plain bad now for it.

Now I'm gonna be waiting on the translation patch.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 01, 2018, 10:12:29 AM
EDIT: The 512F Infinite Corridor achievement was also changed to 640F?

390 more floors past 250f means 39 bosses, and 35 of them should be Abyss Touhou bosses, so 4 new non-Touhou Corridor bosses then? Sounds like it's equivalent to "beat every Corridor boss".
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on August 01, 2018, 12:28:33 PM
I'll try and update the .exe tonight.

Has anyone tried contacting Deranged?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 01, 2018, 12:32:52 PM
I'll try and update the .exe tonight.

You're awesome. This is just what I was hoping to see!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 01, 2018, 01:43:23 PM
It's been ages since I touched this game - how far is the plus disk translation? I've been interested in starting up a new run again to finally check that part of the game out since I haven't gotten to. I lost my old saves anyway because of computer transfers and what not, so... guess I'm starting fresh! Anything that might be important to know? Last I played was when the first ever plus disk trial came out, so... a while ago.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 01, 2018, 01:56:18 PM
So you need
to advance deep enough in Infinite Corridor
to access some of
30F sections? How deep is enough
? Is it
just some bonus section or it contains true mega final boss
? What's in the end of B11F?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 01, 2018, 02:00:16 PM
Dunno yet. I started exploring B11f but it's a huge mess of those metal ball puzzles so far, and there's probably a lot more to it than that. It's huge.

But, it is possible to see a boss icon from the 30f relay point now, so there's at least one boss there.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 01, 2018, 02:27:22 PM
It's been ages since I touched this game - how far is the plus disk translation? I've been interested in starting up a new run again to finally check that part of the game out since I haven't gotten to. I lost my old saves anyway because of computer transfers and what not, so... guess I'm starting fresh! Anything that might be important to know? Last I played was when the first ever plus disk trial came out, so... a while ago.

Translation isn't fully complete especially not that we JUST got a new content update, but the entire story and gameplay relevent things have been translated for a while, only mega-postgame stuff hasn't been finished.

Now's a very good time to get back into it. Game's now (i think) fully feature complete and the translation's just got to fix some changed strings and finish the last several dialogue boxes for super postgame stuff and it'd pretty much be considered fully complete. For all intents and purposes, this is it. It shouldn't be very long before everything's done and stable.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 01, 2018, 02:46:52 PM
Translation isn't fully complete especially not that we JUST got a new content update, but the entire story and gameplay relevent things have been translated for a while, only mega-postgame stuff hasn't been finished.

Now's a very good time to get back into it. Game's now (i think) fully feature complete and the translation's just got to fix some changed strings and finish the last several dialogue boxes for super postgame stuff and it'd pretty much be considered fully complete. For all intents and purposes, this is it. It shouldn't be very long before everything's done and stable.

Oooh, awesome to hear, that gets me even more pumped to play! I figure I'll be caught up with the maingame for a good bit anyway so it's not like I'm rushing ahead into untranslated areas and the most functional stuff is still there. Hell yeah, now I'm really excited to get back in.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Yggdrasil on August 01, 2018, 03:43:53 PM
I just completed B11F.

It seems to only have an orb at the end to let you progress on 30F. Behind the red rock is another rock requiring you to do something on 29F, I'm assuming beat all of the 29F bosses. I haven't beaten Demifiend yet, damnit. I'm going to sleep for now, but you can bet I'm going to do everything I can tomorrow.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 01, 2018, 03:50:23 PM
I just completed B11F.

It seems to only have an orb at the end to let you progress on 30F. Behind the red rock is another rock requiring you to do something on 29F, I'm assuming beat all of the 29F bosses. I haven't beaten Demifiend yet, damnit. I'm going to sleep for now, but you can bet I'm going to do everything I can tomorrow.
The area after that rock in 30f contains the heavenly versions of the bosses, they're scattered all around and you need to beat them to keep exploring the floor.

EDIT:
Oh damn, the bosses respawn each time you enter the area, so its basically a boss rush, thankfully, it seems you don't really need to face every boss to advance, though I also found some rocks that require having beaten multiple of the bosses to advance. The bosses you face in each encounter seem to be random, so it won't be the same boss always in the same location.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 01, 2018, 04:18:00 PM
The area after that rock in 30f contains the heavenly versions of the bosses, they're scattered all around and you need to beat them to keep exploring the floor.

EDIT:
Oh damn, the bosses respawn each time you enter the area, so its basically a boss rush, thankfully, it seems you don't really need to face every boss to advance, though I also found some rocks that require having beaten multiple of the bosses to advance. The bosses you face in each encounter seem to be random, so it won't be the same boss always in the same location.
And what levels are they?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 01, 2018, 04:33:16 PM
And what levels are they?

Probably very, very high. I played just a few minutes untranslated to peek in at b11, and let's just say, if it's taking someone longer than 4-5 hours to hit level 2000, they're doing it very, very wrong.

The exp in-flow is so extreme now that it will take NO TIME AT ALL to just skyrocket to absurdity. And that's just there, who even knows what IC and floor 30's payouts are going to look like.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 01, 2018, 04:44:23 PM
And what levels are they?
Not that high, the lowest I have met is
Heavenly Minoriko at 1230 and the highest Heavenly Yuuka at 1350. Also, nevermind what I said before, there are shortcuts  to your objectives, so you only need to defeat 2-3 bosses at a time.

Also, some random boss highlights; Reisen can use Red Eyes of Sun and Storms as a buff that seems to give her the status resistance ignore for her next attack (which seems to always be Lunatic Red Eyes to SIL your entire frontline), Yuuka will Master Spark you if you use FIR attacks against her, she also has the regen from Protection from Plants, Iku can use Flexibility to turn any DEF debuff into a permanent increase to her DEF, as well as Orb of the Five Clawed Dragon as a permanent self MAG buff, she also has Magic Counter.

EDIT:
After double checking, it seems I was wrong, each Heavenly Boss has a fixed location. You don't need to defeat all of them to advance, but there are rocks with equipment/materials behind them that require you to defeat a certain amount of them at once. There are 2 areas with Heavenly bosses (the first has 22 bosses and the second 38), the rocks of each area only count the bosses of that same area (so if you need to defeat 4 bosses to unlock a rock from area A, defeating 4 bosses from area B won't work), in each of the 2 areas there's a rock that requires you to defeat all bosses there to unlock, so it boils down to two boss rushes, one with 22 and the other with 38 bosses.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Yggdrasil on August 01, 2018, 08:23:56 PM
Meiling's Qi-Gong bug was fixed.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 01, 2018, 09:20:17 PM
For reference, Blood of Superhuman now raises Byakuren's stats permanently by 5% each time she's healed, to a cap of 40% (% based heals still don't heal her completely though). Vampiric Attack got its numbers raised, now it heals 16% of the damage done and when using single target attacks raises all stats by 8% and increases damage done by 16%.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 01, 2018, 11:07:05 PM
Huh, there really is nothing besides a switch in B11f? As far as I can tell I've completely explored it, but there's a portion of the floor that seems utterly purposeless.

https://i.imgur.com/2HA6yhf.png

Admittedly I did this part of the floor at 3 AM and don't remember it very well, but was there anything here? This entire portion of the floor doesn't appear to have anything despite the convoluted metal ball puzzle. No items, no teleport blocked off, no bosses. I must be missing something, if I didn't just forget it due to sleep deprivation.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Yggdrasil on August 01, 2018, 11:11:31 PM
Huh, there really is nothing besides a switch in B11f? As far as I can tell I've completely explored it, but there's a portion of the floor that seems utterly purposeless.

https://i.imgur.com/2HA6yhf.png

Admittedly I did this part of the floor at 3 AM and don't remember it very well, but was there anything here? This entire portion of the floor doesn't appear to have anything despite the convoluted metal ball puzzle. No items, no teleport blocked off, no bosses. I must be missing something, if I didn't just forget it due to sleep deprivation.

I believe I explored everything too. The only things on the new patch version of the floor are the puzzles, the switch and four locked chests containing a Scourge, BFG, Platinum Card and a Medicine of Life.

This is the closest image I think I can make for the full map. http://puu.sh/B772a/6b501372b9.jpg
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on August 01, 2018, 11:15:44 PM
I doubt this mean much to Byakuren - offensively, she's still heavily outclassed, and defensively... well, she does well, but I haven't yet found the game requiring an especially strong tank (to the point I can just keep Suwako in the front without much worry), and Renko is just so damn sick in comparison thx to Maintenance making status/affinity coverage much easier.

Remilia, on the other hand, sounds quite damn improved. Do you think this might make a "half SDM" team (like Remilia, Flandre, and Meiling) viable?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 01, 2018, 11:22:03 PM
This is the closest image I think I can make for the full map. http://puu.sh/B772a/6b501372b9.jpg

Hm, same here. I would wager that something might appear with 30f or Corridor progress then. I've begun exploring 30f now, but I think I'll do some Corridor after checking
the immediately available Heaven bosses.

Incidentally, I read on the JP BBS that after hitting Corridor 640f, the Corridor bosses start looping again (I.E. Abyss Reimu is 650f, Abyss Marisa is 660f, etc). That answers how that's going to be handled.

30f spoilers

First 4 Heaven bosses available are Minoriko, Reisen, Rin, and Sakuya. Based on Minoriko's AI pattern they seem to be fight identically to their Corridor equivalents.

Heaven Minoriko: 158m HP
Heaven Reisen: 269m HP
Heaven Rin: 200m HP
Heaven Sakuya: 295m HP
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 01, 2018, 11:30:19 PM
Remilia, on the other hand, sounds quite damn improved. Do you think this might make a "half SDM" team (like Remilia, Flandre, and Meiling) viable?
Meiling is already a monster by herself, and Flandre is worthy solo as well, so if Remi's been buffed into higher usefulness, then... there you go! It's unfortunate about Private Square, but I imagine Sakuya is viable too when you're already using three people. Killing Doll scales better in a postgame where def/mnd no longer rule everything, and Akyuu could help enable her awakening attack boost. Although I'd still rank Patchouli as a "maybe..." even when using all the other members... First Aid Kit or Tokugawa Statue and all the HP boosts at least get her to something workable I guess?? And her low def becomes less catastrophically low, along with less important in general.

With how endgame works, I think Byakuren, while not a half-bad choice in general, is mainly only the ideal choice if you're using the characters who piggyback on her like Shou, and Nazrin- who becomes viable with her awakening, even if you still moreso pick her for grinding assist than bosses. Grind is a good portion of endgame, after all, so that's actually pretty relevant for a party slot.

Gotta woooork, but can't wait to check the new patch out soon! A truly infinite corridor (not even just 999f looping), and infinite Winner... well, addicts like me will certainly be able to overplay the game :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 02, 2018, 12:09:10 AM
Huh, there really is nothing besides a switch in B11f? As far as I can tell I've completely explored it, but there's a portion of the floor that seems utterly purposeless.

https://i.imgur.com/2HA6yhf.png

Admittedly I did this part of the floor at 3 AM and don't remember it very well, but was there anything here? This entire portion of the floor doesn't appear to have anything despite the convoluted metal ball puzzle. No items, no teleport blocked off, no bosses. I must be missing something, if I didn't just forget it due to sleep deprivation.

My assumption is that the original intention was that you needed to complete the puzzles to even access the warp that got you to the third area, but 3peso made some mistake with the map and now you can straight up skip all that.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Yggdrasil on August 02, 2018, 12:15:13 AM
My assumption is that the original intention was that you needed to complete the puzzles to even access the warp that got you to the third area, but 3peso made some mistake with the map and now you can straight up skip all that.

You do need to clear ball puzzles in order to get to the warp for the third area. And then there's way more ball puzzles in there to lead to the switch. Of note, after completing the floor, all of the coloured switch gates on the floor are gone. Interesting. EDIT: Wait actually I see what you mean now, so you *can* access the third warp. Dang, that's weird.

I think I'm going to go do a bunch of Infinite Corridor stuff since I think I need more stuff to explore 30F comfortably. Also, I want to share my fight against the last 29F boss because it was ridiculously difficult for me. It took me about two hours of actual attempts to end up getting strategy down to beat it. Maybe I made it harder on myself or something accidentally, but I don't know. The video is still processing right now so the quality isn't going to be good for a little while, but.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9iTS0_v7K8&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on August 02, 2018, 01:27:11 AM
Meiling is already a monster by herself, and Flandre is worthy solo as well, so if Remi's been buffed into higher usefulness, then... there you go! It's unfortunate about Private Square, but I imagine Sakuya is viable too when you're already using three people. Killing Doll scales better in a postgame where def/mnd no longer rule everything, and Akyuu could help enable her awakening attack boost. Although I'd still rank Patchouli as a "maybe..." even when using all the other members... First Aid Kit or Tokugawa Statue and all the HP boosts at least get her to something workable I guess?? And her low def becomes less catastrophically low, along with less important in general.

My main worry is that both Patchouli and Sakuya lack the sheer amount of multipliers, coupled with favourable attack multipliers, to make the difference. Compare, for example, Patchouli and Kanako. Sure, Patchouli's MAG is a bit higher, but Kanako gets +32% damage from Desperation and an extra +50% from Divine Authority. Meanwhile, Patchouli simply gets slower delay, sometimes - which is not as important at this level. Oh, and I didn't even count the fact Kanako's Mad Dance can be boosted by Sanae's +SPI damage skill (and I even use Nitori for +CLD damage). Meanwhile, Patchouli's only good source of sustained damage on bosses is Silent Selene and... I don't really think using both Marisa and Patchouli in the frontline is particularly wise.

Quote
With how endgame works, I think Byakuren, while not a half-bad choice in general, is mainly only the ideal choice if you're using the characters who piggyback on her like Shou, and Nazrin- who becomes viable with her awakening, even if you still moreso pick her for grinding assist than bosses. Grind is a good portion of endgame, after all, so that's actually pretty relevant for a party slot.

I tend to agree, though grinding XP/gold/items is so damn easy as it is that I have yet to feel the need to use Shou in the first place.

Quote
Gotta woooork, but can't wait to check the new patch out soon! A truly infinite corridor (not even just 999f looping), and infinite Winner... well, addicts like me will certainly be able to overplay the game :V

Indeed! Time to break the game apart and see which chars come out on top of the stat degeneration, this time around :-)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on August 02, 2018, 01:50:50 AM
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qeCHUohX3mV-eSSCCUVeeIW3HpAREoyK

eng exe for 1.105
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 02, 2018, 03:18:15 AM
Breezing through the Corridor overleveled. Boss spoilers~

350f boss is Unicorn of Order: https://i.imgur.com/SrTZFfW.png

All of the bosses up to it were Touhou. Probably, 450f, 550f, and 640f are non-Touhou bosses as well.

oh wow I lost even with that level advantage, this guy is hard.

OK I beat it. Early on in the fight the boss uses a weak MT attack that applies extremely powerful PAR/TRR/HVY/SIL effects. A few turns later it uses a move where it turns invincible and summons two Wyrms (renamed versions of 30f Dragon enemy). The Wyrms exclusively use Instant Death Attack while the boss starts replenishing a lot of its HP each turn. This lasts until the Wyrms are defeated, after which it lifts the invincibility and uses Scythe of Calamity. The next turn after that, it uses a move with a name I didn't catch that is a powerful SPI MT attack that reduces max HP and is used 4 times in a row if I counted right. This is the big deadly move. The boss can also absorb one character's buffs and fully deplete their MP, use Decomposition Breath, and some kind of MYS breath attack. It can also turn invincible a second time, but I think there's a different followup after it's lifted. Weakness is DRK (appears to be 80 affinity), neutral to MYS and PHY, resists everything else. The reward item for beating it is the Jewel of Judgement, which grants MP+8, HP+999%, MAG+1440%, and TRR/SIL/DTH/DBF+50.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 02, 2018, 04:08:55 AM
My main worry is that both Patchouli and Sakuya lack the sheer amount of multipliers, coupled with favourable attack multipliers, to make the difference.
Patchouli is definitely disappointing; I wouldn't even -consider- using her unless I already had about the whole SDM in my party. It's bad if even with her whole family fielded she still looks... not that good.

Sakuya isn't that bad in that regard, though. She gets a boost from her SPD buff (+20~28% atk can be expected), Extra Attack is still potent even if more expensive to use, and her awakening also provides a gimmick damage boost ontop of Proof of Kinship being good. That's four sources of ATK up to multiply on eachother! She also has a very cheap library cost, which is excellent in endgame. She looks very usable, honestly, it's just that Extra Attack is a little soured and the interaction with Private Square is... bad. She's not a top choice character, but she's plenty considerable if you're using many sdm members.
eng exe for 1.105
You're the besttttt! Thanks so much!

Indeed! Time to break the game apart and see which chars come out on top of the stat degeneration, this time around :-)
Favorable library cost should factor in a lot, because all your stat increase that far in the game is coming from rising library and levels; there's no longer rising equipment quality to even things out, and slow-level-high-base-stat characters lose their stat advantage after all the boosts/gems/jewels. Level speed also matters, when they aren't just paired up as double highs or double lows. Of course, since some slow/expensive characters have incredibly good passives, the rule isn't even slightly global, so it's hard to tell... but I definitely foresee my Miko falling way behind if I go up to 3000s+. The status/affinity/base boosts from maintenance will never go out of style, at least; Nitori and Renko have little to worry about.

edit:OK I have a problem. When I go past the red rock in b11f (the first one, that we were stuck at before this patch) I take the warp and it takes me to a warp tile with no revealed walking squares. I can't move. I tried it in the eng and non-eng 1.105 exes with no difference. Uh?
(http://puu.sh/B7hfg.png)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 02, 2018, 05:54:26 AM
Defeated the boss of the IC 350f: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYwGGHnZeDw&feature=youtu.be this one was actually pretty hard. (Yuuka finally got kicked out of my party, Akyuu is proving to be a much more useful replacement).

On a different note, after activating the switches in the areas with Heavenly Bosses, you can access one of the other rocks in the middle of 30f and fight against Ame no Murakumo for a third time, they are around level 1900.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 02, 2018, 06:02:26 AM
Patedit:OK I have a problem. When I go past the red rock in b11f (the first one, that we were stuck at before this patch) I take the warp and it takes me to a warp tile with no revealed walking squares. I can't move. I tried it in the eng and non-eng 1.105 exes with no difference. Uh?
OK, I re-installed the 1.105 patch and my tiles are no longer broken. I dunno what happened, because all the files were saying they were modified with the new 8/1/2018 times? Anyway, it's good now~
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 02, 2018, 07:38:41 AM
Reporting in with more Corridor progress. Spoilers.

450f boss is Great Power of the Ring: https://i.imgur.com/bMha3lv.png

uhhh, I think I'm gonna go beat up the Heaven bosses now. I'm not even going to talk about this one.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 02, 2018, 10:48:36 AM
I have a very dumb question, but which character has ability which shows enemy's HP in upper left corner of screen?

Edit: Seems it is Akyuu, who has it, but I can't make this her ability to work, not sure what I am doing wrong.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qeCHUohX3mV-eSSCCUVeeIW3HpAREoyK

eng exe for 1.105
Thank you a lot. Waiting for translation of new content :D If you need a hand somewhere with translation, I'd be glad to help as I could (though I badly know Japanese).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: zeroxtime62 on August 02, 2018, 12:23:32 PM
Hit X on the keyboard when you're in battle and it'll close the action menu and allow you to move the selection cursor over an enemy to see their HP.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 02, 2018, 01:45:19 PM
So it seems that true mega final  boss is
True Dragon King Lv.2400 in 4 forms
. I am going to check if
WINNER respawned
but so far it seems I need to finish Infinite Corridor to get access to the remaining part of 30th floor. I am only on 42nd floor of Infinite Corridor, so it is going to take quite a time :)
Hit X on the keyboard when you're in battle and it'll close the action menu and allow you to move the selection cursor over an enemy to see their HP.
Oh, thanks :D I kind of forgot about that function.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 02, 2018, 01:58:41 PM
So, HUGE spoiler:
WINNER now has special relay point right in front of him. Each time you defeat him, he comes back 200 levels higher than before.
At certain point there is a funny bug noticed, evaluation of HP by Akyuu's ability shows his HP at negative because of overflow when he is high enough level:  https://i.imgur.com/yw26A5N.png
However, Bestiary shows his real HP (without overflow) the last time you fought him: https://i.imgur.com/7XBTmLr.png

Edit: Actually HP in Bestiary also overflows when WINNER starts getting over 4 billions of HP.
WINNER stats seem to increase non-linearly with level-ups. So at 2400 Lv he is several times more stronger than at 1200 Lb. But in his lower 10,000s he is still 1-shot wonder for my testing character. So I am not sure if his HP overflows for real too or not.

Also, Lv. 17,000 WINNER rewards with 1,951,151,600 EXP, I am going to see if this number is going to overflow too XD
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 02, 2018, 05:11:08 PM
Please, forgive me for flood from my side, but I couldn't help myself.
I look forward to watching a lv25600 winner video  :getdown:
Though I can provide you screenshots, not the actual videos, but nevertheless, here it is:D
***WINNER*** - Lv.25600: https://i.imgur.com/wzb94lW.png
One and only turn: https://i.imgur.com/zdtl4Mn.png
Rewards: https://i.imgur.com/yvYFoqN.png
And, of course, he keeps growing in levels way beyond 25600. I am going to see how far he will grow and at what level he will start crushing my testing character.
Seems that EXP rewards don't overflow past 4 billions.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 02, 2018, 06:14:03 PM
Sry, I promise this is my final post in this flood, but I found a bug:
It seems that Winner's stats actually overflow. His HP actually overflow at either Lv. 2600 or 4000 (depends if int32 was used as signed or non-signed) and he becomes 1-hit wonder. His attack/magic eventually overflows too (probably other stats like MND, DEF eventually too), so he will start healing you instead of attacking. Just tested it by my low level chars. I one-hitted high level Winner after he healed me for over 2 billions (instead of damaging). Seeing that true final boss has around 6 billions HP taken together and he is more powerful than Winner in his pre-overflow state, I think it wasn't intended to be like that.
So off to do Infinite Corridor while this is being sorted :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 02, 2018, 09:47:08 PM
It was to be expected, but if a boss has a counterattack and triggers your own character's counterattack, they can continually exchange counters.
Had Iku get zapped by Heaven Iku and they exchanged Magic Counters until Iku was KO'd, rip.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 02, 2018, 10:02:22 PM
It was to be expected, but if a boss has a counterattack and triggers your own character's counterattack, they can continually exchange counters.
Had Iku get zapped by Heaven Iku and they exchanged Magic Counters until Iku was KO'd, rip.
If you can mitigate the damage heavily enough, it might not be a bad way to fight some of those bosses :V Iku's counter hits like a TRUCK. (But, that's probably not realistic until you're pretty overleveled)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Marbychu on August 02, 2018, 10:38:02 PM
It was to be expected, but if a boss has a counterattack and triggers your own character's counterattack, they can continually exchange counters.
Had Iku get zapped by Heaven Iku and they exchanged Magic Counters until Iku was KO'd, rip.

Ah yes, the game where gigantic numbers and Counter-Counter-Counter-Counter-Counterattacks exist. Now tell me, am I talking about Labyrinth of Touhou 2 or Disgaea?
I've been playing way too much Disgaea 5 lately.

Anyway, I've been playing a bit and I'm stuck on 29F, since I can't beat any of the bosses there. Even after
the MASSIVE EXP gains I got from that event on B11F
, I still can't beat them. Though I got awfully close to beating the
Red Hero and Green Brute.
Awfully close. So close it physically hurt me when I got the Full Wipe.

I think I just need to level grind some more but hoo boy that gets old real quick. Any advice on which enemies to go after for that sweet, sweet EXP?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 02, 2018, 11:01:07 PM
If you can mitigate the damage heavily enough, it might not be a bad way to fight some of those bosses :V Iku's counter hits like a TRUCK. (But, that's probably not realistic until you're pretty overleveled)

It's pretty unrealistic, player:boss HP and damage ratio heavily favors the bosses so a straight up exchange will result in virtually guaranteed death unless you're insanely higher leveled, even for the Touhou bosses with their low HP and high damage model.

More on 30f (spoilers)

So far I've fought (but not necessarily beaten) 18 Heaven bosses, it seems they do in fact use the same AI pattern as their Abyss counterparts, and are about as strong as well. Highest level thus far is 1380 with Heaven Flandre. The rocks require that the player defeat a certain number of the bosses in a single trip, as opposed to just once. Notable bosses so far...

-Heaven Sakuya has no weakness and good durability. Starts the fight with Luna Clock followed by Soul Sculpture. Uses Private Square at I think 50% and then spams Misdirection. Level 1310.
-Heaven Eiki spams Last Judgement and has surprisingly high SPD, unleashing a relentless barrage of devastating attacks. Also uses a MT SIL attack and Curse attacks, but almost everything she does is Last Judgement. Level 1378.
-Heaven Patchouli gives herself a Passive Philosopher's Stone buff for every element that makes her really damage resistant, then she grants herself a 100% Boost and uses Royal Flare. Her durability was such that I couldn't beat her before she used Royal Flare, had to use Akyuu's invincibility spell to tank it. Didn't see what she used after. Level 1310.
-Heaven Yuuka, as was mentioned earlier, has Protection of Plants for HP regeneration on every action. Coupled with Gensokyo's Reflowering and the earlier mentioned countering weakness hits with Master Spark and she seems like the toughest fight so far. Level 1350.

Based on what's been posted by Rinnie,
I'm going to use a backup file after going through the Heaven stuff to fight the Unicorn of Order again at a proper level, as I had breezed through the Corridor with the intent of fighting the bosses again at higher levels, but if there is no level cap, I think I'll just settle with the earliest fight instead and stop at 2400 for ***WINNER***. It's a great game but I'm not grinding it for eternity.

I think I just need to level grind some more but hoo boy that gets old real quick. Any advice on which enemies to go after for that sweet, sweet EXP?

The Metallic Kedama is the best source of EXP and money. It has high EVA and nearly impenetrable defenses, but if you can beat it it gives a good 3x as much EXP/money as the other enemies on the floor. A high accuracy defense piercing attack or DTH (it has 0 DTH resistance) is the best way to beat it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Marbychu on August 02, 2018, 11:17:29 PM
The Metallic Kedama is the best source of EXP and money. It has high EVA and nearly impenetrable defenses, but if you can beat it it gives a good 3x as much EXP/money as the other enemies on the floor. A high accuracy defense piercing attack or DTH (it has 0 DTH resistance) is the best way to beat it.

Metallic Kedama is 30F, right? I should probably add that I can't get there since I can't beat any of the 29F bosses, and there are rocks requiring me to beat one to advance to 30F. Unless I'm missing something like a secret staircase, which is certainly a possibility.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 02, 2018, 11:23:05 PM
Oh sorry I forgot about that. The Golden Kedama Machos are the best source of EXP on 29f. Might as well just wipe out everything you encounter though.

Though, what is your level anyway? I did
Red Hero & Green Brute
at average level of 652 and library 700. It is a very tough fight but it's doable.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on August 02, 2018, 11:51:45 PM
So, I finally defeated
True Dragon God
and obtained
Dragon God Power Source
. From the patch notes I read before, it seems like there should be a way to obtain more copies of this item, but I can't possibly imagine how since I got it from achievement, and those can't be repeated. Anybody knows?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 02, 2018, 11:54:08 PM
Yeah, you should be able to handle that boss without much grinding. Just beat up anything on 29f for a bit. Once you hit 30f, it's metal kedamas or bust; you just need to go to one of the spots on the floor where they spawn much more often. Which I'm too busy to look back for at the moment, zzzz. The other fights are kind of tough, but honestly, you could just run from them if you can't handle it. Or just stick to your highest powered front line until you can.

Aya is pretty much required for farming Kedamas until your level gets high, by the way.

From the patch notes I read before, it seems like there should be a way to obtain more copies of this item, but I can't possibly imagine how since I got it from achievement, and those can't be repeated. Anybody knows?
Have you completed all the game content? I recall reading somewhere that you gotta finish all the content first, e.g. 640f corridor. Curious how good the item's stats are, by the way! Shaaare
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Marbychu on August 02, 2018, 11:58:28 PM
Oh sorry I forgot about that. The Golden Kedama Machos are the best source of EXP on 29f. Might as well just wipe out everything you encounter though.

Though, what is your level anyway? I did
Red Hero & Green Brute
at average level of 652 and library 700. It is a very tough fight but it's doable.

I figured those buffed up Kedamas were the best source I was gonna get (I've been grinding on them for a while), but I figured it didn't hurt to ask.

Average level is currently 707, and I think my library levels are somewhere around there? Maybe a bit higher? Though some of my more dedicated characters are probably closer to 1000 Library. I've been grinding a LOT.

I can actually take out the
Red Hero
just fine. That's relatively easy, and I can sometimes do it without losing a character. It's after that point that everything falls apart.

My plan for
Green Brute
is to last as long as possible, while dealing enough damage to lower his health quite a bit, and then when Marisa's Hakkero Charge hits ~20 while she's chilling in the back (I usually don't last until 25), pull her out to the front and Master Spark away. Master Spark can, at this point, actually take out around 15-20% of his health, depending on the charge level and if I can get a Concentration in beforehand, but it's just not enough. I got him down to maybe 10% health on my best attempt?

Also, I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but Explosive Flame Sword or whatever the skill is called seems to have increased to 6 MP cost? I noticed that when I updated, and I gotta say that kinda irritates me but I guess it was just too good?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 03, 2018, 12:13:50 AM
A lot of subclass attacks had their costs increased, yeah.

I think I actually killed both heros on the same turn? I'm pretttty sure they power up when the other dies, so I wouldn't recommend rushing one down immediately.

You can also consider subbing Marisa with Murakumo. She'll eat a hefty 27 mp from everyone in front, but her spark will get enormously powerful. As well, "if I can get a concentrate in" leads me to think it's the first time you have her on the front line; I'd recommend getting her magic buff up early in the fight, before stuffing her in the back row for when it's needed. You can time it when a buffer is about to take their turn, or when Akyuu can make her invincible or something.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 03, 2018, 12:25:33 AM
So, I finally defeated
True Dragon God
and obtained
Dragon God Power Source
. From the patch notes I read before, it seems like there should be a way to obtain more copies of this item, but I can't possibly imagine how since I got it from achievement, and those can't be repeated. Anybody knows?

I don't know for a fact, but have you checked into B11f to see if anything changed there? Also, can the fight be repeated? Have you cleared Corridor 640f? I would suspect these things have something to do with acquiring it again. There's certainly something to do, just gotta try everything.

Also, I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but Explosive Flame Sword or whatever the skill is called seems to have increased to 6 MP cost? I noticed that when I updated, and I gotta say that kinda irritates me but I guess it was just too good?

Yeah 1.104a nerfed a ton of offensive subclass spell cards by increasing their MP costs. A little annoying. Ninja's Assassination Sword now costs 7 MP...ridiculous.

---

Unrelated, progressing through 30f some more,
Heaven Sanae has a Youkai Buster move that she appears to use at about ~75% HP. Does enhanced damage on Youkai characters. First time an attack took into account a character's race, I think. Yeah this thing seems virtually impossible to survive for Youkai, yeesh.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on August 03, 2018, 02:06:38 AM
https://pastebin.com/jAfpfh27

Here's a dump of all of the items in the game.

It's supposed to also say who drops them but I guess I need to update the script even more to get that data.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 03, 2018, 02:09:29 AM
IC 450f boss down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m2Zqznzl5A&feature=youtu.be

It drops
The One Ring, which gives 999% HP/DEF/MND, 40 EVA and 144 CLD/NTR/WND affinity.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IRUN on August 03, 2018, 07:49:40 AM
Corridor Boss of 550F: https://imgur.com/a/kHax0bT (https://imgur.com/a/kHax0bT) Is it referencing something?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 03, 2018, 08:15:40 AM
Wow that's really disturbing. Seriously, I'm glad I'm seeing it here first and not in-game at 3 AM. Name is Liquid Metallic Jelly if I'm reading it right. It must be the boss that drops the Liquid Metal Mind that was in the files, which is a Dragon Quest item. Aside from following the general concept of a Metal Slime and having the Slime's smile, it appears to be an original enemy design.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IRUN on August 03, 2018, 08:32:02 AM
Oh, I see. Thanks.
The final boss of Infinity Corridor: The Will of Gensokyo https://imgur.com/0dECGvO (https://imgur.com/0dECGvO) It summons the abyssal forms of Touhou characters. And after you clear 640F, the Infinity Corridor bosses loops back, so you face Abyss Reimu at 650F, Marisa at 660F etc.  https://imgur.com/a/4r00WCY (https://imgur.com/a/4r00WCY)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 03, 2018, 10:07:18 AM
Oh, some of you, people, are so fast, already went through 400 floors of IC in 1-2 days  :toot:
Oh, I see. Thanks.
The final boss of Infinity Corridor: The Will of Gensokyo https://imgur.com/0dECGvO (https://imgur.com/0dECGvO) It summons the abyssal forms of Touhou characters. And after you clear 640F, the Infinity Corridor bosses loops back, so you face Abyss Reimu at 650F, Marisa at 660F etc.  https://imgur.com/a/4r00WCY (https://imgur.com/a/4r00WCY)
So did you check what s in closed section of 30th Floor? That one section which is blocked by rock, requiring you to visit the depths of IC?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 03, 2018, 01:30:29 PM
I went ahead and just completely started a new game so I'm way behind again.

But uh, hey! I just beat Mokou again! You know, the plain one on floor 4. Not the new, hot heavenly one everyone else is eager to see. And I actually broke 2000 damage on her because Kasen's amazing! Ahaha. Yeeeah, guess that's nothing to the overflowing values of billions posted in here.

Ah well. So I'll be a little late to talking about the new content, oh well. I only felt it appropriate to play the game front to back now that it's fully complete, at last.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 03, 2018, 03:27:50 PM
I went ahead and just completely started a new game so I'm way behind again.

But uh, hey! I just beat Mokou again! You know, the plain one on floor 4. Not the new, hot heavenly one everyone else is eager to see. And I actually broke 2000 damage on her because Kasen's amazing! Ahaha. Yeeeah, guess that's nothing to the overflowing values of billions posted in here.

Ah well. So I'll be a little late to talking about the new content, oh well. I only felt it appropriate to play the game front to back now that it's fully complete, at last.
Those first floors look like from completely different universe now. I still remember those squirrels with 60 HP randomly 2-shotting my characters on 1st floor  :]
Corridor Boss of 550F: https://imgur.com/a/kHax0bT (https://imgur.com/a/kHax0bT) Is it referencing something?
Speaking about HP,
this Liquid Metal boss looks like has only 50 millions HP? Which is like nothing at such deep levels. Does he have extremely high resistances to everything (like those Liquid Metal Babbles in Dragon Quest series) or... we have another case of HP overflow here? :D
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Eilaris on August 03, 2018, 03:28:49 PM
Waiting for the translation patch to be fully done before I get moving on LoT2, but a question regarding the first game:

Has anyone given a thought to updating the character build recommendations for LoT1?  The ones linked in the topic are 7 years old and I'm not sure if they reflect the community's expanded knowledge about all of the game's content anymore (and it's clear there's still plenty of debate about character value in general to be had with LoT1). 

I'm also somewhat interested in whether any of those recommendations change based on getting or not getting various optional recruits (one challenge run I've considered is recruiting only the characters required to complete the game).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 03, 2018, 04:13:29 PM
Speaking about HP,
this Liquid Metal boss looks like has only 50 millions HP? Which is like nothing at such deep levels. Does he have extremely high resistances to everything (like those Liquid Metal Babbles in Dragon Quest series) or... we have another case of HP overflow here? :D

Since it's a Metal Slime type enemy, it does look like it's one of those low HP and high DEF/MND enemies. But it must have truly incredible DEF/MND and resistances to justify such low HP. Based on the library image it has 300+ affinity in every stat, I'd wager it's 500.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 03, 2018, 04:41:34 PM
Since it's a Metal Slime type enemy, it does look like it's one of those low HP and high DEF/MND enemies. But it must have truly incredible DEF/MND and resistances to justify such low HP. Based on the library image it has 300+ affinity in every stat, I'd wager it's 500.
If it's actually difficult, I'll just throw Winner on Rumia and it'll probably die in a few casts of Magical Tempest, heheh~ Great [VOI] Piercing Attack, go! Kaguya-Winner would work well, too, but I don't think she'll be a likely party member this far in the game. She's workable if you'd really like for eientei family as boosts fix her up and the affinity score is good, but after you get past basegame's wall of high def/mnd bosses, she's only worthwhile as a swap-in on the small handful of wall bosses.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 03, 2018, 04:58:26 PM
I'll try Magical Tempest Iku when I get to it then, but I'm willing to bet it has 500 VOI resistance too. Debuffing its MND will probably be annoying, but Reisen can do it.
Good god do I hope it doesn't have high EVA too, that's another traditional Metal Slime trait.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on August 03, 2018, 05:18:48 PM
Guys, anybody has any experience with Flandre as a standalone character (i.e. using her without other SDM members)? I was considering replacing Tokiko, since while Tokiko's stats are actually huge (her attack is actually higher than Nitori's right now), her skills are... not. Even with the WINNER subclass, I mostly use her for Youkai Yakuza Kick, Vorpal Sword and Sword of Light. My main worry is that, while Flandre's stats also look kinda damn high, when not using other SDM members she lacks any % stat boost, whereas Tokiko has +20% ATK/DEF and another +20% ATK/MAG. On the other hand, Starbow Break looks a lot stronger than Youkai Yakuza Kick, and I'd guess Vampiric Attack works also with subclass skills such as Sword of Light. Then again, Tokiko has some actual bulkiness, while Flandre only has good HP and awful defenses/affinities (which can only be partly ameliorated by equipment) ...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 03, 2018, 05:23:03 PM
I'll try Magical Tempest Iku when I get to it then, but I'm willing to bet it has 500 VOI resistance too. Debuffing its MND will probably be annoying, but Reisen can do it.
Good god do I hope it doesn't have high EVA too, that's another traditional Metal Slime trait.
Hmmm... if it self-buffs it's DEF/MND (I wouldn't be surprised!) then Maribel can trash it with Liberated Abilities and her buff-reversal passive without worrying about EVA. Iku is a good idea too, though.

If it doesn't have 500 VOI resist, yes. XD I'd hope that, at the least, it's VOI resistance isn't nearly as high as it's other resists; that'd be reasonable. EVA could be a thing... but swapping your main equip for a massive ACC bonus isn't that much of a problem.

Speaking of all this, I should go do a bunch of corridor. On 310f right now.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 03, 2018, 08:02:41 PM
 
Completed the Heavenly boss rushes, the first area doesn't give any interesting rewards, though behind the rock that requires you to defeat all 18 (in a previous post I miscounted and said there were 22) bosses there's a Machine God Lucifer. In the second area on the other hand, you can obtain a Will of Gensokyo if you defeat all the 38 bosses there, it gives 8 TP, 500% to all stats, 16 ACC/EVA, 32 to all ailment resistances, 2 HP recovery and 1 MP recovery.

EDIT: 
Hmm, the Ame-no Murakumo fight (https://imgur.com/a/tAcTXO4) is though. If you inflict damage upon the sword itself, its arms will counterattack with an extremely powerful MT attack; one of the arms has high MND and low DEF and the other the opposite, killing them is not too hard. The problem is that once you kill either or both of the arms, the sword will use Second Coming of the Divine Sword to fully revive them, which would mean you only have the 1 turn where the arms are dead to damage the main body without being countered, but after that the sword still has that attack that drains your MP for a ridiculous heal and one of the arms can use Oracle of Sacred Mirror Dedication to heal the sword for 13m HP every few turns.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 03, 2018, 08:43:08 PM
Traversing depths of Infinite Corridor:

Recently defeated bosses:
350F: Unicorn of Order - 1,437 Lv, 493,842,817 HP.
Item Drop: Iron's man Headband. Special post-fight drop: Jewel of Judgement.
360F: Reisen's Shadow - Abyss - 1472 Lv, 335,862,671 HP.
370F: Sanae's Shadow - Abyss - 1506 Lv, 348,562,391 HP.

That's over 300 floors in one day... And almost 300 more to go before I can see what's behind that one rock, that must be something totally special. Anyone already checked what is behind that? That is like real true super final area in the game.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on August 04, 2018, 02:37:52 AM
I went ahead and just completely started a new game so I'm way behind again.

But uh, hey! I just beat Mokou again! You know, the plain one on floor 4. Not the new, hot heavenly one everyone else is eager to see. And I actually broke 2000 damage on her because Kasen's amazing! Ahaha. Yeeeah, guess that's nothing to the overflowing values of billions posted in here.

Ah well. So I'll be a little late to talking about the new content, oh well. I only felt it appropriate to play the game front to back now that it's fully complete, at last.

Are you noticing any untranslated text? I just defeated the maingame final boss again and about 90% of the text was untranslated. I'm not sure if it actually changed or if something broke when I ported the translation files over.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 04, 2018, 02:49:36 AM
Final boss dialogue was significantly untranslated since plus disk's release, although I don't recall it being THAT much of it...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IRUN on August 04, 2018, 02:55:05 AM
Anyone already checked what is behind that? That is like real true super final area in the game.

The final boss awaits: https://imgur.com/lnS8Z74 (https://imgur.com/lnS8Z74) :o Back to grinding for me.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on August 04, 2018, 02:59:20 AM
Final boss dialogue was significantly untranslated since plus disk's release, although I don't recall it being THAT much of it...

hmm. I swear I fought him on an earlier (plus) patch and it was there. But maybe not.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 04, 2018, 03:16:22 AM
The final boss awaits: https://imgur.com/lnS8Z74 (https://imgur.com/lnS8Z74) :o Back to grinding for me.
...that hp count is only as much as King has though :S that's strange

makes me wonder how misleading it's lv is, it looks like there's an extra digit lolol

even then though, have fun with that grind!!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IRUN on August 04, 2018, 03:34:46 AM
...that hp count is only as much as King has though :S that's strange

makes me wonder how misleading it's lv is, it looks like there's an extra digit lolol
Let's just say that he has quite the number of phases.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 04, 2018, 03:53:40 AM
The final boss awaits: https://imgur.com/lnS8Z74 (https://imgur.com/lnS8Z74) :o
What.

Yeah I thiiink I'll pass,
unless it's different from the original or something.
Was hoping for an Orochi fight somewhere, looks like there isn't one. Pity, dude was shafted.

By the way, were there special BGMs for
Living God Murakumo and Full Power Ryujin-sama, or same as 20f final boss?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 04, 2018, 03:55:13 AM
Just lost against the
Metal Slime, it does indeed have very high DEF, MND and EVA, what a pain. It also has a few strong FIR and SPI MT attacks, but they aren't too bad.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 04, 2018, 04:08:40 AM
Can you check if that freak resists VOI or has high DEF/MND debuff resistance?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 04, 2018, 04:32:23 AM
Can you check if that freak resists VOI or has high DEF/MND debuff resistance?
Yep, it does resist VOI. Its debuff resistances are all pretty high (Hina can only succesfully debuff him with Biorhytm about 1 out of 3 times; meanwhile Mokou lands them pretty consistently with White Curse thanks to Sheer Force, without taking into account the times she misses). Its also really fast (though I am level 1900).

-Specifics: Iku has a base of 4513461 MAG, she had an 80% MAG buff, the slime had an 48% MND debuff (doubled to 96% due to Iku's passive), she used Magical Tempest lv5 and dealt 5899887 damage. (I didn't have a Strategist nor Boost effects so there should be no more modifiers there).

Oh I also noticed that while it has quite a bit of attacks, it always follows a strict pattern, using them in the same exact order every time, so it's very predictable. After a few turns, it'll deplete its timebar saying something along the lines of wanting to run away (probably a reference to the metal slime enemies who always run away when encountered), but then on its next turn it says something about steeling its resolve to fight, which buffs all of his stats at no delay, and follows with 3 consecutive uses of Godly Wave, a VOI MT attack (I currently have no idea how to survive this); it'll do this whole thing again after a few more turns have passed, except then it'll follow its self buff with World Devouring Calamity, then an attack I haven't seen before (not sure of its effects) and finally Power of Truth, haven't been able to make it any farther than that.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IRUN on August 04, 2018, 05:48:00 AM
Yeah I thiiink I'll pass,
unless it's different from the original or something.
Was hoping for an Orochi fight somewhere, looks like there isn't one. Pity, dude was shafted.

By the way, were there special BGMs for
Living God Murakumo and Full Power Ryujin-sama, or same as 20f final boss?
It's different to what I remember of the 28F fight. No, the BGMs used for both fights is the same one used for the standard Murakumo fight.

Somewhat disappointed that there wasn?t any boss fights in B11F.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IRUN on August 04, 2018, 06:30:39 AM
By the way, has anyone tried a Sealing Club only run?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 04, 2018, 07:07:28 AM
Yep, it does resist VOI. Its debuff resistances are all pretty high (Hina can only succesfully debuff him with Biorhytm about 1 out of 3 times; meanwhile Mokou lands them pretty consistently with White Curse thanks to Sheer Force, without taking into account the times she misses). Its also really fast (though I am level 1900).

-Specifics: Iku has a base of 4513461 MAG, she had an 80% MAG buff, the slime had an 48% MND debuff (doubled to 96% due to Iku's passive), she used Magical Tempest lv5 and dealt 5899887 damage. (I didn't have a Strategist nor Boost effects so there should be no more modifiers there).
Ran a quick damage calculation on that, yep, 500 affinity scores. Still, 10% of its HP with just an 80% MAG buff is not bad. If you pile on the damage bonuses you could theoretically 4-shot w/ Murakumo backed Elekiter Dragon Palace and -50% MND debuffs, but that EVA...I wonder if Super Drill, HVY, and -50% DEF will be enough to let Tenshi dent it with Sword of Hisou. I'll be trying that out. It should be possible to beat it with 3-5 hits like that if I'm right, depending on how much DEF/MND it has after that.

It's different to what I remember of the 28F fight. No, the BGMs used for both fights is the same one used for the standard Murakumo fight.
Isn't there a lower leveled Full Power Ryujin-sama on 30f? Rinnie said there was a Lv 2400 one with 4 forms. I'm wondering if that one is any different from the Lv 12800 one.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IRUN on August 04, 2018, 07:36:12 AM
Isn't there a lower leveled Full Power Ryujin-sama on 30f? Rinnie said there was a Lv 2400 one with 4 forms. I'm wondering if that one is any different from the Lv 12800 one.
??? There should only be one Full Power Ryujin-sama. The thing Rinnie mentioned might be the error in the bestiary, where his level is recorded as 2400 instead of 12800.https://imgur.com/a/xUnQ15W (https://imgur.com/a/xUnQ15W)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 04, 2018, 08:18:05 AM
Huh, that's a little confusing. Is that not what's behind the rock that requires 640+ Corridor then? Rinne didn't do that and was able to fight Full Power Ryujin-sama.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IRUN on August 04, 2018, 09:39:04 AM
Huh, that's a little confusing. Is that not what's behind the rock that requires 640+ Corridor then? Rinne didn't do that and was able to fight Full Power Ryujin-sama.

Wait, I think I know what's going on. There is a series of teleport passageways behind the rock that brings you to a switch https://imgur.com/HXSzFo1 (https://imgur.com/HXSzFo1). If you activate it, you get to fight the 'Enhanced' Ryujin-sama. If you flip the switch again, or don't the first time, you fight regular LV2400 Ryujin. The higher level version is not recorded in the bestiary.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IRUN on August 04, 2018, 10:28:29 AM
Upon further testing, it seems that the pillar of light also enhances the difficulty of the 29F bosses, with Demi-fiend/King of Reason being pushed up to LV5600 Might as well post the text: https://imgur.com/iSA1gIU (https://imgur.com/iSA1gIU) and https://imgur.com/8fXP13j (https://imgur.com/8fXP13j)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 04, 2018, 12:17:42 PM
I went ahead and just completely started a new game so I'm way behind again.

But uh, hey! I just beat Mokou again! You know, the plain one on floor 4. Not the new, hot heavenly one everyone else is eager to see. And I actually broke 2000 damage on her because Kasen's amazing! Ahaha. Yeeeah, guess that's nothing to the overflowing values of billions posted in here.

Ah well. So I'll be a little late to talking about the new content, oh well. I only felt it appropriate to play the game front to back now that it's fully complete, at last.

Hey, good to see I'm not the only one starting back up again! I'm actually at the same point you are... but my computer froze before I could save and fight Mokou, so I gotta redo some progress. Oh well. But yeah, Kasen has been murdering bosses for me. What an earlygame monster.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 04, 2018, 12:18:55 PM
Just defeated Boss of 560F
(Shou's Shadow - Abyss - Lv. 2162)
.
It also feels that there are more floors with narrow passages than with wide halls at 250+ depth.

After passing through so many floors, I kind of wish there were more floors like that: https://i.imgur.com/d4zQtlZ.png  :]

80 more floors to go through before I can see that lever described by IRUN :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Validon98 on August 04, 2018, 12:47:52 PM
Team 9's still got a decent amount of B11F left to clear at this point, and still has yet to do King, so that's a thing. Though at this point I kinda want to try other teams, but not have to replay the whole maingame/original postgame, which fortunately I managed to find an old backup of my Team 9 save when they had the original postgame more or less done and nothing done in Plus Disk, so I'll probably just experiment using that file instead of losing motivation in the main game.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 04, 2018, 12:59:16 PM
Wait, I think I know what's going on. There is a series of teleport passageways behind the rock that brings you to a switch https://imgur.com/HXSzFo1 (https://imgur.com/HXSzFo1). If you activate it, you get to fight the 'Enhanced' Ryujin-sama. If you flip the switch again, or don't the first time, you fight regular LV2400 Ryujin. The higher level version is not recorded in the bestiary.
I knew something about the level was off. I guess that explains how you get additional copies of the item, and based on the next post, apparently a few others as well.
I wonder if these scale higher if you defeat them again, or if you can just gain infinite copies of their item once your level is that obscenely high. I figure it's probably the latter, but that's fair enough... huh, if these fights aren't broken though, I guess Winner's overflows are just weird bugs? If you can have a lv10k+ fight then lv2400 winner should function fine!

That's neat because it provides a more tangible goal for those who want to massively overplay the game utilizing the infinite corridor. At first I thought it sounded like a big pain to go through so many IC opening events plunging that deep, but I realized that after you're done gathering most kinds of items (other than special boss drops and additional awakening items) there's very little reason to open rank 1~2 or possibly even rank 3 chests, so you don't need to deal with as much tedium from the item-opening cutscene and flashes. Even the 4~5 chests would mostly be for the chance of 20 infinity gems, and you generally don't even see one of those per floor. I also wouldn't need to worry about getting 40~50 floor chains once I have enough tokugawa statues... yeah, it all gets easier.

As for my current progress, completed B11f and the right-side quadrant of endgame 30f.
Ooomph, so many heavenly bosses in the next one!
Gems sure do rain down like candy grinding in the depths of b11f though. It actually makes it look completely reasonable and realistic to max the entire party's gems once you're overleveled enough to speedgrind, esp. with Rinno in front and nazrin in back for drop boost. Jewels though... oomph. Enough to get the all more important ones done, at least.

Edit:I used tomes to compare Reisen to Miko, after considering that even the likes of Miko is best off with a quartz charm now... and if I really do come up to lv3000+... well. The problem is most of her current stat pool comes from equipment (taking off ONE piece of gear HALVES her max hp! and it's not a first aid kit!), and the amount of stats off equipment will scale down significantly over time with levels and library. Unlike Nitori, who has a massive stat headstart and others catch up, Miko is mostly on-par with others, just better affinities, and then will fall behind later instead of falling back to normal levels. A Reisen tweaked as heavily as her is already about as good with better status support at only lv~1700, and I can peek at later scaling by removing all gear but their tokugawa statues, at which point Reisen blows her utterly out of the water- even accounting for moderate equipment boosts and her passive benefits there's no way Miko will keep up. Miko does still boast higher affinity potential and a dual-element debuff and support heal (which currently fullheals any non-tank- not bad) but I guess I just don't want to reach lv3000 and THEN swap characters so then Reisen's ends up with a 10% exp deficiency mega late in the game. Miko is excellent if you're just planning on getting to corridor 640, beating True Final Boss, and stopping, though.

Unfortunate that Kaguya isn't a more worthwhile full-time party member, though. Full family bonus would be nice. Already using Eirin. In mega endgame her delays eventually aren't a problem and Eirin can overheal her, so it's workable, but there's not much reason to when you aren't fighting the def/mnd monoliths.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 04, 2018, 02:20:49 PM
Are you noticing any untranslated text? I just defeated the maingame final boss again and about 90% of the text was untranslated. I'm not sure if it actually changed or if something broke when I ported the translation files over.

A Keine box in the intro, a box in Rumia's recruitment event (before the manga meat's given over) some acheivement and skill text (obviously, since those were changed last patch) and a single word or two in Chen's recruitment.

Everything else so far's been looking fine. I'll try to call you out and list more as I go.

EDIT: Another one that almost slipped through: the description for basic attacks, at the top of the screen, is also untranslated. Where it'd usually tell you that it's going to use the higher of Attack or Magic to do damage.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 04, 2018, 02:37:32 PM
I knew something about the level was off. I guess that explains how you get additional copies of the item, and based on the next post, apparently a few others as well.
I wonder if these scale higher if you defeat them again, or if you can just gain infinite copies of their item once your level is that obscenely high. I figure it's probably the latter, but that's fair enough... huh, if these fights aren't broken though, I guess Winner's overflows are just weird bugs? If you can have a lv10k+ fight then lv2400 winner should function fine!
I just finished 1st Cycle of IC and unlocked 30F's last section. So, actually
Enhanced form of True Dragon King (Lv. 12800) suffers from HP overflow. In 1st and last phase it has less HP than in Lv.2400 Form, and in 2nd phase it has negative HP.
.

I think that items can be received in
Infinite Corridor. I actually got Will of Gensokyo way before fighting it and I think it was in Infinite Corridor where I found it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 04, 2018, 02:40:51 PM
A Keine box in the intro, a box in Rumia's recruitment event (before the manga meat's given over) some acheivement and skill text (obviously, since those were changed last patch) and a single word or two in Chen's recruitment.

Everything else so far's been looking fine. I'll try to call you out and list more as I go.

Yeah, I noticed these myself, it was kinda confusing to me too, especially the skill descriptions kinda hamper it cuz it's been a while since I last played.

I'll go and try get my progress back soon-ish, almost tempted to race Milky to the top, lmao.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on August 04, 2018, 02:50:47 PM
Edit:I used tomes to compare Reisen to Miko, after considering that even the likes of Miko is best off with a quartz charm now... and if I really do come up to lv3000+... well. The problem is most of her current stat pool comes from equipment (taking off ONE piece of gear HALVES her max hp! and it's not a first aid kit!), and the amount of stats off equipment will scale down significantly over time with levels and library. Unlike Nitori, who has a massive stat headstart and others catch up, Miko is mostly on-par with others, just better affinities, and then will fall behind later instead of falling back to normal levels. A Reisen tweaked as heavily as her is already about as good with better status support at only lv~1700, and I can peek at later scaling by removing all gear but their tokugawa statues, at which point Reisen blows her utterly out of the water- even accounting for moderate equipment boosts and her passive benefits there's no way Miko will keep up. Miko does still boast higher affinity potential and a dual-element debuff and support heal (which currently fullheals any non-tank- not bad) but I guess I just don't want to reach lv3000 and THEN swap characters so then Reisen's ends up with a 10% exp deficiency mega late in the game. Miko is excellent if you're just planning on getting to corridor 640, beating True Final Boss, and stopping, though.

I can confirm this - I've reached over "Reimu lvl 4000" and Miko is truly start to lag behind. I still haven't replaced her because I still dunno who to use in her place (partly because I'm still undecided on how many members I want to swap in the first place), but it's just a matter of time. Indeed, even Nitori will eventually fall behind, I think - Tokiko already surpassed her in ATK score (not even counting % boosts from skills), and other chars like Chen and Suwako are steadily coming close. Ofc, Nitori's advantage is still so massive that she still works quite damn well - but even then, I'm starting to suspect that the point when Yuugi's Knockout in Three Steps (as well as similar other nukes) will start outdpsing Nitori's megawatt gun is no longer that far.

The main problem in replacing is that I still can't fully tell what the ultimate goal of postgame is, here. Back in LoT1 it was obviously WINNER farming, and that's it. Here, ofc there's WINNER, but there's Corridor too, and there might be other stuff I still haven't discovered. Until I find out, I can't tell if I need, say, a debuffer rather than a last-ditch nuke, or varied elemental attacks rather than sheer power. There are several possibilities for replacing my "flex slots" (which, basically, are Miko, Tokiko, and perhaps Nitori):

- Remilia, Flandre, and perhaps Meiling
- Alice and Marisa
- Youmu and Yuyuko
- Orin, Utsuho and maybe Koishi
etc

but which one I end up choosing largely depends on what my "final opponent" looks like - what statuses he's vulnerable to, what abilities he has, etc.

EDIT: The news about overflowing HP values kinda worry me, though. I mean, if the game can't even handle stuff like lvl 4000 WINNER, I'm not sure what's the point in keeping going.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 04, 2018, 03:03:16 PM
Upon further testing, it seems that the pillar of light also enhances the difficulty of the 29F bosses, with Demi-fiend/King of Reason being pushed up to LV5600 Might as well post the text: https://imgur.com/iSA1gIU (https://imgur.com/iSA1gIU) and https://imgur.com/8fXP13j (https://imgur.com/8fXP13j)
First one says that it activates a strengthened boss mode, the 29f bosses, Yamata no Orochi Hollow, Living God Murakumo, and Full Power Ryujin-sama are strengthened. Second one says something about the Corridor but I can't understand the full thing, would need to translate it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 04, 2018, 03:16:24 PM
Extremely IMMENSE spoiler. Look at your own risk!! :D
Infinite Corridor, what you will see if you play it for loooooong time:
Floor 640,000 random encounter: https://i.imgur.com/AzLjrZs.png
Floor 640,000,000 random encounter (Level overflown several times XD): https://i.imgur.com/qWzbjnD.png
Floor 640,000,000 Boss (Level overflown several times): https://i.imgur.com/xarmRRk.png
Rewards from aforementioned boss (they are relatively small, because of level overflow): https://i.imgur.com/f17E3et.png
Max positive Floor of IC: 2,138,587,137. After that it overflows into negative and things will totally stop making any sense.
EDIT: The news about overflowing HP values kinda worry me, though. I mean, if the game can't even handle stuff like lvl 4000 WINNER, I'm not sure what's the point in keeping going.
I think it will be fixed in small patch as it was fixed with character stats (in "vanilla" LoT2 it wasn't possible to have over 2 bil HP and other stats on characters too, but now it is possible).

Edit about lever:
It seems that 30F's lever indeed applies to some other bosses too, not only to those on 29F/30F. I was just about to do a test fight with my lowbie Lv. 2000-ish characters against Hollow Yamato no Orochi, boss on B10F, and he is suddenly Lv. 9660.... So test didn't go well :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 04, 2018, 04:29:23 PM
Extremely IMMENSE spoiler. Look at your own risk!! :D
Honestly, "enemies have a very high level if you go to floor 176k in the corridor!" isn't a spoiler at all XD

But yeah, 3peso himself tweeted that there's a bug before releasing the final patch. But he wanted to Get That Patch Out There, and also go play Etrian Odyssey X  :getdown: I imagine the overflows will be patch-fixed.

The main problem in replacing is that I still can't fully tell what the ultimate goal of postgame is, here. Back in LoT1 it was obviously WINNER farming, and that's it. Here, ofc there's WINNER, but there's Corridor too, and there might be other stuff I still haven't discovered. Until I find out, I can't tell if I need, say, a debuffer rather than a last-ditch nuke, or varied elemental attacks rather than sheer power. There are several possibilities for replacing my "flex slots"
Well, in order to continue leveling up, you'll have to continue plumbing the depths of the corridor. So, honestly, you'll have to be able to handle the entire set of 64 bosses! While you do have additional foes due to the
boss powerup orb on 30f
, those probably don't infinitely scale, so your final opponents are ultimately the pair of Winner and the corridor loop. Although, if you plan to stop at the superpowered TLB (lv12800 is pretty high, after all) you could consider it to be him.

Meiling is a monster even alone, but I dunno if I'd pick Flan. Her max-tier library cost will not scale well in 10k level terms, especially paired with her level rate, and her base attack isn't quite as monstrous after all the boosts; nor she she actually carry many damage multipliers. Same goes for Yuyuko. My Eirin's stats are already ABSOLUTE TRASH (but overheal!!) and Byakuren's were bleh before I replaced her, and that's only around lv1600. Meanwhile Marisa's megaspark with Murakumo is no slouch, and Utsuho has some monstrous multipliers along with having giga flare for the def/mnd monolith corridor fights, Orin has mega extra attack, etc. If you want to keep Miko's debuff utility when replacing her, there's Reisen.

Well, actually, once you generate so much atb in one turn that 0% delay and -20% atb bar reduction means nothing, Lavaeteinn is spammable. There might be something there with Flandre after all.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 04, 2018, 04:58:12 PM
Metal Slime down : https://youtu.be/m8cB6ItubfE . The item it drops gives 640% DEF/MND, 100 to all affinities and 48 to all resistances (honestly I think the Regalia is better).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 04, 2018, 05:09:52 PM
Metal Slime down : https://youtu.be/m8cB6ItubfE . The item it drops gives 640% DEF/MND, 100 to all affinities and 48 to all resistances (honestly I think the Regalia is better).
48 to all resistances can be pretty solid, it's like putting on a ribbon. The DEF/MND is trivial, of course.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Validon98 on August 04, 2018, 05:22:58 PM
I've finally dove back into the Infinite Corridor for the first time in awhile with Team 9. Now I have Quartz Charms for everyone, just need to grab everyone a Regalia and they're pretty much set in regards of equipment. Otherwise it's getting levels and getting HP Mega Boost on everyone, because man HP Mega Boost is a pretty big deal for survivability.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on August 04, 2018, 05:45:11 PM
Meiling is a monster even alone, but I dunno if I'd pick Flan. Her max-tier library cost will not scale well in 10k level terms, especially paired with her level rate, and her base attack isn't quite as monstrous after all the boosts; nor she she actually carry many damage multipliers. Same goes for Yuyuko. My Eirin's stats are already ABSOLUTE TRASH (but overheal!!) and Byakuren's were bleh before I replaced her, and that's only around lv1600. Meanwhile Marisa's megaspark with Murakumo is no slouch, and Utsuho has some monstrous multipliers along with having giga flare for the def/mnd monolith corridor fights, Orin has mega extra attack, etc. If you want to keep Miko's debuff utility when replacing her, there's Reisen.

Well, actually, once you generate so much atb in one turn that 0% delay and -20% atb bar reduction means nothing, Lavaeteinn is spammable. There might be something there with Flandre after all.

I... didn't consider just how busted Lavateinn can get at super-high speeds lol - yeah, I'd guess Flandre definitely has potential, though probably with the Transcendent class rather than something like WINNER (Murakumo is a possibility, but even with maxxed skills/jewels, Lavateinn is gonna deplete your MP very quickly).

About Marisa, I wanted to ask - does the Murakumo boost work in the "good way"? As in, only subtracting the base MP cost of Master Spark from other frontliners but applying the multiplier to the entire damage? Because if that's the case, then yeah Marisa is pretty much the "ultimate" Murakumo abuser and could be able to deal absolutely mind-numbing amounts of damage.

About Utsuho... I just noticed just how many multipliers she has, and... whoa. I really feel like trying her again now. Blazing (+30% FIR), Overheating (up to +75%), Fighting Spirit (up to +30% damage), High Blazing (up to +30% FIR), Sheer Force, and Earth Palace Party. That's insane. I mean, even if you don't use other Palace Party members (Rin might merit testing, but I don't like rly see Koishi and Satori as worth the hassle to be honest. Maybe Satori with Dragon God subclass, since she's gonna hit a weakness very often this way, but Koishi seems like a big nono), that should be enough to make Utsuho viable even on her own.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 04, 2018, 05:46:37 PM
48 to all resistances can be pretty solid, it's like putting on a ribbon. The DEF/MND is trivial, of course.

I agree with the status resistances being good, that + the affinity bonus is nice and makes a good pair with a Regalia while allowing the use of Tokugawa Statue or First-Aid Kit.

On the topic of the boss itself, the EVA doesn't look as high as I worried it would be, but I'll still try Sword of Hisou strats. Also wow, 8,646 ATB per tick, that is fast.

Maybe Satori with Dragon God subclass, since she's gonna hit a weakness very often this way, but Koishi seems like a big nono), that should be enough to make Utsuho viable even on her own.

Satori's Small MP Recovery lets her spam Dragon God's Breath a nearly unlimited number of times, so she'd be a pretty good choice for that offensively.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 04, 2018, 05:58:03 PM
I... didn't consider just how busted Lavateinn can get at super-high speeds lol - yeah, I'd guess Flandre definitely has potential, though probably with the Transcendent class rather than something like WINNER (Murakumo is a possibility, but even with maxxed skills/jewels, Lavateinn is gonna deplete your MP very quickly).
Yeah, spamming Lavaeteinn is no joke. And with that, she doesn't even need a special class, nor does she self-kill like Starbow. As for Marisa, yes, it interacts in "the good way". It's very good. I don't think it applies all the drained mp as mp bonus, but that still applies a massive multiplier, PLUS it allows her to take her turn with 100% mag buff instead of 80~87% (also good) and if you want to leave her out for some Magic Missile, she regens her mp insanely fast. Viable with Akyuu helpin' her out.

And yes, Utsuho's got some MAD multipliers, plus durability off Fighting Spirit. Dragon God Satori is legit. Keep in mind she'll boost everyone's weakness damage! With Dragon God's Sigh and recollections you'll nearly always have weakness, her mp passive lets her afford infinite breaths easily, and Earth Spirit's bonus is pretty strong. And with both of them, Orin is worth considering ontop.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 04, 2018, 06:29:15 PM
I agree with the status resistances being good, that + the affinity bonus is nice and makes a good pair with a Regalia while allowing the use of Tokugawa Statue or First-Aid Kit.

I personally haven't really had any problems with status effects in this patch, Aya Dragon God+Akyuu easily remove them before they become an issue, and Healer Momiji can quickly cure them if I really need to, the only relevant status is DTH, which a bunch of other good endgame equipment already gives.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 04, 2018, 06:54:21 PM
Hmm, now I'm thinking about swapping someone (Reisen even??) for Flan or Utsuho or even Satori... Renko's Galaxy Stop is already becoming pretty usable too, and in parties other than mine, Satori could be copying Flan's Lavaeteinn for massive damage. Oooooh, or Sato-spark with small mp recovery for quickcharge  :getdown: Meanwhile, my Mokou is already at 80 tp; that's a positively enormous ATK gain to stack with Fighting Spirit and Blazing. She makes a potent Winner and has sheer force for Wand of Dest.

Satori was soooo hard to use due to fragility, but endgame is so very nice to her. Suddenly, her high hp and low def/mnd is a perfectly fine stat split.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 04, 2018, 08:16:39 PM
On a random note, the bosses this patch seem to have gained a bunch of
TP draining moves, which is probably to balance out characters like Mokou who can abuse the immense amounts of TP you can get this late to keep reviving/activating Guts.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Validon98 on August 04, 2018, 10:05:56 PM
I've beaten King, solved the remainder of B11F, and smacked WINNER a second time. Now the problem is gaining numbers for 30F stuff. I might just call it there and take a break from that to do "old Team 9 file except they get Tome'd so I can make an actual team of 12".
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 04, 2018, 10:12:43 PM
Ok. I went with my normal party to conquer 30F (btw, for normal gameplay I use party of 4 for various reasons, only using others as TP buffer).

No problems killing few Heavenly bosses but then I started fight with Heavenly Kanako. Shortly after start of fight she surprised me with party attack which 1-shotted Marisa (my main damage dealer), then she buffed herself +80% to all stats so I could barely make any damage to her. Fight lasted for long time, maybe like 30 minutes, but I was slowly approaching the victory, Kanako had like 15% HP left but then she casted Desperation and 1-shotted everyone. Looks like I took it too long....

I tried fighting
Red and Green duo bosses on 29F, who are like total pushovers in their normal form now, I tried their enhanced version, which made them Lv.3088
. So they one-shotted Keine before fight even started. Only Marisa could damage them by full Megaspark, others did 0 damage... My tank was 2-shotted by 8mil+ hits. Well, this was quickly over.

I am so excited to finish this game with proper party. Probably start fully from scratch, from very first floor and make a proper playthrough. Seriously, this game is the best JRPG I ever played.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 05, 2018, 04:04:52 AM
Ooomph! Chained 83 floors of Infinite Corridor (up to nearly 400f), got 4 more tokugawa statues and 2 quartz charms and maxed my infinity gems in the last few floors. (bought 2 statues, the others were chests) Getting close to having a statue/charm/regalia for everyone. Also close to maxing gems on everyone, certainly not jewels but I got the important stuff more or less, as far as boosts and jewels go. Everything's finally coming together. Just gotta grind some more b11f, grind some more corridor, and blast out the second section of
heavenly touhou boss rush
. Also; even at lv1800, the 350f boss was... still very capable of putting up a fight :V I... did not have sufficient resistances for it's status attack. Ouch. When all four characters are heavy and 3~4 are silenced, errr... still, I was heavily overleveled, so I managed to scrape out a first try win.

Hmmm... trying to use Mokou's "Imperishable Shooting" for corridor bosses is kind of hard. XD I guess it's not a big deal though, as long as I make sure to have it done for the special x50F bosses. Go into a battle, use Wand of Destruction a couple times, and use Rest command to dump her TP. -If- I swapped her out I'd probably either bring Futo back or snag Youmu, so that I could maintain a "reliably resists death" attacker...

Pretty satisfied with my party overall.
Support Core-Tank:Eirin/Akyuu/Sanae/Renko
Offensive Hybrids:Rumia/Iku/Maribel/Reisen
Damage Dealers:Nitori/Mokou/Meiling/Marisa

I guess calling maribel/reisen offensive hybrids is a little silly since they're pretty much in full magic builds, but w/e. Sanae is dragon god (although I might make Akyuu an offensive hybrid dragon god later?), Marisa is murakumo for megaspark (and heavenly demise works in randoms when I feel like it), and Mokou is winner for... slightly better elemental variety? No one -really- wanted Winner. Also Reisen is the strategist because lol I didn't have one anymore.

I forged a bunch of machine god lucifers as minor upgrades for some remaining equip slots, just because there was seriously nothing else I would ever want to make with those materials at this point  :getdown:
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 05, 2018, 04:42:37 AM
I'm stuck trying to beat Corridor 350f boss at a fair level (doing it at 1293 Iku, average 1288), been several hours now (not playing consecutively). I'm trying ***WINNER*** Reisen Wand of *Destruction* DTH strats for the
Wyrms
since they're annoying to defeat normally. It works, but...inconsistently. I think I have to give up on relying entirely on it.
Holy Fire
is ridiculous too. It seems it's used after the boss withstands a certain number of attacks, but I'm not sure if that's really the case. I counted 4 at one point and 3 at another, although maybe I missed a Magic Counter from Iku. I'm using Elementalist + Akyuu + Satori copying Akyuu's invincibility spell to deal with it, works out but gotta be prepared for when it's used, and it only works once, if the boss uses that attack again in the fight only Akyuu can survive with some luck. I could do this with character losses no problem, but my goal is to defeat it without losing a single character, like I've done for pretty much everything else.

Damage output at least is fine though, Tenshi can shave off about 15% per Assassination Sword with full buffs. The boss' status move at least is a nonissue because Iku cures PAR (and buffs everyone with it), Dragon God Akyuu sometimes cures everything (other times just one status), and Mystia can be switched in to cure SIL and HVY if Akyuu doesn't handle it, leaving TRR to be cured by Akyuu when she gets her next turn. Really, the only thing this boss has going for it is
Holy Fire
.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 05, 2018, 04:57:31 AM
Oh jeez, trying to survive that onslaught with no losses sounds crazy. I'd love to see the video if you can pull it off (or decide to accept a couple character losses) though. As I said, I beat the boss massively overleveled  :V My Renko was actually capable of just tanking that stuff, plus some characters that had big Eirin overheals on them, but then of course it happened when Renko was lower hp and next thing I know I had one low-hp character left alive... scary times.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 05, 2018, 07:52:10 AM
aaaaa I almost had it by switching to ***WINNER*** Satori, but I swapped Akyuu out for Aya (lineup of Iku/Aya/Satori/Tenshi) to speed up the last two hits needed, and then it used the status inflicting move to get SIL and HVY on everyone. Stuck spamming normal attacks from Iku and Tenshi, Aya got KO'd, then
350f boss prepared Holy Fire
and used it to KO Satori, but Iku defeated it with her Magic Counter. While I managed to win,  I didn't meet my goal of no KOs just yet. But I'm pretty happy to finally have a working strategy here.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 05, 2018, 08:39:14 AM
How's Komachi in Plus Disk, by the way? Or what tanks are generally good in Plus Disk? Because I remember my two favorite tanks to use in the base game were Komachi and later on a stupid geared up Maintenance Renko.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 05, 2018, 08:58:54 AM
As far as I've seen, the 350f boss uses
Holy Fire 
  the moment it gets attacked and receives damage (either the immediate next action or the one after that), attacks that deal 0 damage won't trigger it. I believe he also can't use it the first 2 turns or so. I'm pretty sure he can't use it again (though the boss does Concentrate when he's really low on HP, so maybe that's what follows).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on August 05, 2018, 09:25:39 AM
How's Komachi in Plus Disk, by the way? Or what tanks are generally good in Plus Disk? Because I remember my two favorite tanks to use in the base game were Komachi and later on a stupid geared up Maintenance Renko.

Renko is still incredibly good - while the power of Maintenance slowly wears off as far as base stats go, it remains invaluable in terms of topping affinities and resistances, which is ideal for a tank like Kenko. Furthermore, the way speed works at incredibly high levels makes spamming Charge and Galaxy Stop much easier than ever before. I think it's not an exaggeration to say that, if you are using Maribel too, Renko is the best tank in the game.

Komachi, alas, doesn't quite measure up. Generally, you want your tank to either be unnaturally bulky or to carry some extra utility. And while Komachi is by no means frail (indeed, her low DEF/MND matter a lot less in the endgame), she just doesn't measure up to the likes of Mokou (who can Resurrect an inordinate amount of times), Byakuren (who can have MUCH better affinities or resistances, as well as buffing potential), the aforementioned Renko, or Meiling (who can resurrect, take a lot less damage, AND heal herself).

That being said, Komachi's decent ATK and good spellcards might allow her to work as a bulky attacker... though she does suffer from a lack of powerful multipliers.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 05, 2018, 11:47:43 AM
So I think it is still too early to ask if anyone managed to survive at least one turn to
Enhanced True Dragon King Lv.12800?
without cheating?
SPD, DEF and MND of Enhanced TDk and Yamato no Orochi on B10F are just gigantic. Even with 1 mil SPD, B10F's Yamato gets first turn. And if you survive (thankfully, Yamato no Orochi doesn't start with party attack, so no Full Wipe before fight even started), you deal 1 (one) damage at best. And that's before you realize that their real non-overflow health is around hundred of billions.

Also funny thing,
Metal Slime Boss on 550F has only 50 mil HP. On 2nd Cycle (he is met again on 1190F) even his HP overflows XD  (to be more precise, he is Lv. 4335, -354.410,442 HP)

And it seems that you need to go through 4 cycles of Infinite Corridor to max out Jewels of Greater Awakening for at least front party (50 jewels per character). But that is actually a huge boost: +50% damage and 25% less damage taken.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 05, 2018, 01:47:17 PM
Komachi unfortunately only has Avici, 10% regen, and lots of HP as far as tanking goes. In Plus Disk, her HP is a lot less special as everyone can get 10 more base HP (plus a first aid kit, potentially) and you have tons of other tanks with far more useful passives and spellcards for the job. For example, Mokou has almost as much HP, 20% regen instead of 10, Fighting Spirit to reduce damage taken, resurrection(!), and Sheer Force to make debuff/status moves far more accurate. Past sheer survivability, you probably want someone with big buffs like Renko/Byakuren/Sanae/Akyuu to be doing the job most of the time, because you've got the max mp to spam the hell out of everything.

Renko scales amazingly into Plus for the reasons he mentioned (galaxy stop ain't bad at all when it doesn't prevent your turns anymore!), plus the fact that she can achieve massive MP values to actually afford casting charge/galaxy stop many times (mine has 79!). Doubled First Aid Kit grants insane HP, which I eventually swapped for a Tokugawa to make her mp even more infinite and help ensure Galaxy Stop activates Assault Point. And I always stand by Enchanter Renko for both a low-cost atk buff in randoms for Liberated Abilities, and a much safer to use (and stronger) Charge. Because of how the numbers parse (-33% current hp, +16% max hp), a character at 50% hp actually achieves net even gain/loss off Enhancer Renko's Charge, so it's even better of a setup than it originally looks on paper- those allies at ~75% hp will only take like 8% damage.

Once you eventually get so much atb even Charge casts in two (or even one) ticks, Renko pretty much blows the other tanks away. I still appreciate Sanae having a (status) heal and damage boost passives, though, and Akyuu's in a league all her own.

And it seems that you need to go through 4 cycles of Infinite Corridor to max out Jewels of Greater Awakening for at least front party (50 jewels per character). But that is actually a huge boost: +50% damage and 25% less damage taken.
Wait, only four cycles? Do the bosses start dropping more jewels after it begins looping...? You only get 56 jewels per cycle otherwise, which is maxing like... 1 character per go. Of course, after your first loop you probably have nothing else to spend Infinity Gems on, but.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 05, 2018, 02:22:42 PM
Wait, only four cycles? Do the bosses start dropping more jewels after it begins looping...? You only get 56 jewels per cycle otherwise, which is maxing like... 1 character per go. Of course, after your first loop you probably have nothing else to spend Infinity Gems on, but.
By front party I meant front row (4 characters). I think that's absolute bare minimum you might need. And, according to my calculations, by the time you will go through 4 cycles (approx. +2240 Levels per cycle), your characters will be right of high enough Level to fight
Enhanced True Dragon God, though even then it is not certain that you will be ready, more like at minimum possible level to stand any chance. If you didn't see it yet, his Infernal Breath hits for 300 mil+ damage to everyone in front row, that's the damage against current endgame characters. And he always goes first, his SPD also seems to be extremely high.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 05, 2018, 02:46:37 PM
Meanwhile I just finished floor 10 and so far the translation's still stable, no untranslated dialogue since Chen on floor 3. No interesting notes about the playthrough itself, Yuugi's punching things hard, Aya's being the best character in the game, Reimu's being helpful, and Momiji's soaking damage in slot 1. Basic stuff, but what I will say that I'm trying to unironically use Nazrin and... she's not as terrible as I'd always assumed. She can actually do work on things weak to one of her elements and without great mind. She's still someone I'm probably best off throwing out for someone more helpful but she's not as straight up useless in battle as Rinnosuke is early.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 05, 2018, 03:09:53 PM
Speaking about translation.

In main game I saw 2 untranslated parts, first one is when you start new game and being asked if you want to start New Game+. Message is in Japanese.

During intro there is a following untranslated section (I rechecked it in 1.0.5 with new files): https://i.imgur.com/IdQsoQC.jpg

(Non-Plus) Achievement #6, 20, 25 from Main game have untranslated lines.
Plus Achievements #4, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 19, 37, 42, 50, 52 have untranslated lines.
I can't say about Items, as I miss some of them.

I hope this will help.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 05, 2018, 03:12:09 PM
Meanwhile I just finished floor 10 and so far the translation's still stable, no untranslated dialogue since Chen on floor 3. No interesting notes about the playthrough itself, Yuugi's punching things hard, Aya's being the best character in the game, Reimu's being helpful, and Momiji's soaking damage in slot 1. Basic stuff, but what I will say that I'm trying to unironically use Nazrin and... she's not as terrible as I'd always assumed. She can actually do work on things weak to one of her elements and without great mind. She's still someone I'm probably best off throwing out for someone more helpful but she's not as straight up useless in battle as Rinnosuke is early.

Oh god, nevermind, I'm never catching up. I'm still on 5F, lmao.

Nazrin was surprisingly decent in that one draft run I had (kinda wanna do one again), though she's a little hard to set up imo. Her lack of a multi-target spell makes it so so hard to justify her when her normal spells can barely one-hit anything and make her super weakness reliant. Gold Rush is her best offensive option but Gold is arguably the most worthless out of the three boosts and good luck finding enemy groups she can chain. She really wants a subclass for more spells or give her full speed and HP investment for something utility oriented like healer/enchanter/herbalist etc. etc. Though maybe she's better in Plus Disk, this is all speaking base game experience from waaay back.

Good to hear Aya is still ridiculous though. Right now Reimu and Kasen are my MVPs.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 05, 2018, 03:42:28 PM
Meanwhile I just finished floor 10 and so far the translation's still stable, no untranslated dialogue since Chen on floor 3. No interesting notes about the playthrough itself, Yuugi's punching things hard, Aya's being the best character in the game, Reimu's being helpful, and Momiji's soaking damage in slot 1. Basic stuff, but what I will say that I'm trying to unironically use Nazrin and... she's not as terrible as I'd always assumed. She can actually do work on things weak to one of her elements and without great mind. She's still someone I'm probably best off throwing out for someone more helpful but she's not as straight up useless in battle as Rinnosuke is early.
I always used her since she needs a lot of BP (I just dumped her after) and she's definitely pretty OK, it's just that she's not particularly good either. Once you get Byakuren she can piggyback the sutras and gets notably better... her slayer passive is really good towards the end of base game and Gold Rush has somewhat low def influence/good power. Her awakening gives her an -enormous- damage boost, albiet a bit RNG, so she's long-term viable... she's just got a lot of bumps in the path of trying to be good :V

Okay, slammed out the last big section of 30f. Whew. 500 levels over feels appropriate, since it's more of an endurance test than anything else, and a few of those fights are gimmicky enough to not be trivial as it is. The rewards were a tokugawa statue, regalia, and
will of gensokyo
so getting the treasure was 100% worth it. Brushing up against the end of my equipment farming days! Whew, the corridor will be more relaxing after that.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Validon98 on August 05, 2018, 04:03:53 PM
Finally taking that break from Team 9 to try something new. Using my beginning of Plus Disk save, I'll be going into it with Tenshi, Iku, Renko, and Maribel, while trying to force myself to use all the Plus Disk characters upon recruitment. I'm not the most knowledgable on all of them, but I do know that some of them are going to flop hard without their respective synergies. Still gonna give it a try.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: RegalStar on August 05, 2018, 04:58:38 PM
And it seems that you need to go through 4 cycles of Infinite Corridor to max out Jewels of Greater Awakening for at least front party (50 jewels per character). But that is actually a huge boost: +50% damage and 25% less damage taken.

You don't need Greater Jewels to get extra copies of awakening items. As soon as you have obtained a first copy, you can exchange for more in Akyuu's shop for 12 infinity gems. (Of course you CAN still use greater jewels if you really want to)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 05, 2018, 05:32:13 PM
You don't need Greater Jewels to get extra copies of awakening items. As soon as you have obtained a first copy, you can exchange for more in Akyuu's shop for 12 infinity gems. (Of course you CAN still use greater jewels if you really want to)
Oh, good to know this. So then it seems that only 1 cycle is needed to get those items for all characters. On other hand, you need 32,928 Infinite Gems if you want to max out everyone. So jewels will still be useful to speed up the process.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 05, 2018, 07:53:27 PM
Well, it?s ?only? 7,056 to max your party of 12. Minus the gems from additional loops. Tanks shouldn?t need them as much, which kinda helps. Every additional corridor loop saves 672 gems.

It's too bad gems max at 200... after you get your mega boosts you're forced to decide who to start pumping first XD
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 06, 2018, 12:14:55 AM
As far as I've seen, the 350f boss uses
Holy Fire 
  the moment it gets attacked and receives damage (either the immediate next action or the one after that), attacks that deal 0 damage won't trigger it. I believe he also can't use it the first 2 turns or so. I'm pretty sure he can't use it again (though the boss does Concentrate when he's really low on HP, so maybe that's what follows).

I decided to experiment a little based on this and had Aya give Tenshi first turn and immediately Direct Attack before the boss gained any ATB, then spent the rest of the turns using Concentrate. In 5 tests, 350f boss always used Scythe of Calamity and then
Holy Fire
the next turn. With this information, I suspect that the boss has actions based on its current HP % that take priority over
Holy Fire
, which is why I can get 3 Assassination Swords in without seeing it used, but it also uses Scythe of Calamity as a guaranteed action prior to using that attack. In retrospect, I normally see Scythe of Calamity either as an opening move or after
defeating the Wyrms
, likely the reason I see a delay between the two actions is because the status move is used at 75-80% of its HP or somewhere around there. There's probably one other move used based on HP between then and the
Wyrm summons.

This knowledge makes it immensely easier to deal with
Holy Fire
, because I can just bait it at the beginning with my lineup set to tank it, then switch to my damage dealing lineup. If there are no other guaranteed
Holy Fire
uses, then I feel comfortable using Tenshi to take out the
Wyrms
, as it's about a 2-3HKO with World Creation Press even as a Ninja depending on her buffs, coupled with Iku's Elekiter Dragon Palace. I'll still try ***WINNER*** Satori Wand of *Destruction* DTH strats for now though.

Incidentally, the Concentrate-esque move is indeed followed up on with
Holy Fire.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 06, 2018, 12:43:52 AM
Done with floor 12. A few more untranslated dialogues have popped up.
One in the scene where the party finds Suwako and Tenshi's battle marks on the upper half of floor 12 (I took Kanako) and another from Byakuren just after taking out Tenshi, before the hopeless battle with Ame-no-Murakumo.

Might be worth compiling these all into one post when I'm done.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 06, 2018, 08:52:24 AM
Got the 350f Corridor boss run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1OcN0YkQOw

It appears that the trigger condition of attacking it is activated by Satori's Terrifying Hypnotism skill, as I did one attempt at recording a run before this one after a successful test run, only to find the boss using Scythe of Calamity and
Holy Fire
without me attacking it. So it might be that it works off of any kind of damage done to it, like PSN. The opening is a bit more RNG dependent than I'd like because of that. Miko is my Elementalist for that lineup, and if she dodges, then the other characters can't survive without 1-hit invincibility. They can't survive at all if Scythe of Calamity connects too. Another strategy I probably should have considered is to have some characters as Scythe of Calamity fodder and switch in characters that can withstand
Holy Fire.

Oh yeah, another thing I saw while looking back at my recordings was that, although I thought 350f boss wasn't using Scythe of Calamity and
Holy Fire
consecutively because its status move at an HP % took priority, it actually performed two ordinary attacks (Direct Attack and that -12% all stat debuffing attack) following the status attack without using
Holy Fire
. So it might be that the status move resets its AI so that it won't use
Holy Fire
until it's damaged again, with the
summons
taking priority as well. No matter what you do though, it seems that it is inevitable to see it used by the time you
defeat the summoned Wyrms.

Also, 1-hit invincibility is not lifted if the character would have taken 0 damage from the attack anyway, which is pretty neat. Works the same way for bosses with #-hit based invincibility, like
Abyss Alice.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 06, 2018, 02:00:17 PM
Okay... my strat for dealing with 30f
murakumo
was to overheal so I can tank out the counterattack, blast down most of it's HP with a few sparks (damage dealt vs counter ratio is good that way, mp regens fast with Marisa overhealed spamming magic missile on), then as my max hp is getting crushed down just debuff the counter-piece (The RIGHT SIDE) 's attack stat, which seems to be the intentional strat as the few times I tried it's atk stat debuffed fine.

When Marisa manages to kill the right side here and there, other nukes can blast the main part for a moment. Once (if) you lose Marisa, or don't use her at all, or just decide to eat some more counterattacks, it's best to use characters with 100%+ boost skills like Grand/Ultra Incantation (maribel/patchouli/reimu/akyuu) or Shikieiki/Suwako's awakening. Akyuu's 50% boost on stuff as strong as 3D scope is good too.

If you time multi-target nukes appropriately you can also kill the right side in the same attack as nuking the main piece, and avoid the counter like that. That's easiest with Spark, for obvious reasons, even though it's resisted.

Instead of overheal, you can alternatively use Satori+Akyuu to double up on invincibility. Eirin's seriously broke tho'. She doubles the hp of my tanks, anyone else gets an incredible boost... I also finally had extra items to devote to tweaking her up harder, and, I guess she's not THAT far behind others, but if it wasn't for overheal her hp/def/mnd are the worst in the team. It's also very helpful versus it's attacks that cut down your max HP, although you can't refresh the overheal until your hp dips down, so it still hurts.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 06, 2018, 08:34:34 PM
Huh, I went back to my main file only to find my Infinity Gem stock vanished. Must be the same kind of glitch that caused some of my stat Gems to vanish before too. I guess they're easy enough to farm, but man, it's annoying to just lose 200 Gems for no reason.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on August 06, 2018, 09:57:23 PM
Yeah, I seem to have lost my Battle Points counters at some point in time, too. I wonder if it's because of the save file copying that happened when updating the game...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 06, 2018, 10:25:38 PM
Oh yeah, that'd make sense if you copied over some sort of save file D: But those aren't in the patches?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on August 06, 2018, 10:30:34 PM
They are. I legit have no idea what caused it.

There's also the bug (???) that the target/character selection circles' animation isn't as smooth as it used to be, which is also a save file problem, from what I can understand, because if you start a new game, the animation is a lot smoother. Very minor detail, but it's there, and I noticed that some people other than me also had it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Arcvasti on August 07, 2018, 01:36:47 AM
I've been playing a completely new game with the latest patch, just got to 10F. The Shinigami's Work definitely works now and is pretty noticeable for random encounters. It wasn't uncommon to one-hit entire enemy groups with Narrow Confines of Avici.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 07, 2018, 02:34:35 AM
Got 450f Corridor boss down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6FIfyEpSJo
Iku is pretty funny in this fight.

I tested if Akyuu's effect ignoring invincibility spell protected from its special status effect, but it doesn't. Presumably it doesn't work on any of the other special status effects the 1.105 bosses employ, like the permanent stat debuffs. Also, it appears that Counter type moves consume a turn from Boost effects. Didn't notice that before, pretty useful to know.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 07, 2018, 02:51:38 AM
I'm watchign a stream and everyone just told me that affinities stop working after 500.

THAT'D BE GOOD TO KNOW JEEZ
3peso why can't you just have the number max at 500? ;_;

Oof, I'm sitting at 438f. 450f will be a thing... but I have Iku and Rumia and some half-piercing people so I should be ok. ...actually, watching the video Garuga just posted, I guess this will be ezpz... XD
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 07, 2018, 03:12:58 AM
Yeah when I first did the 450f boss, I thought that its special status made it impossible for characters afflicted by it to do damage to the boss. Turned out its DEF/MND are just so high that I couldn't do any damage to it with the setup I was using on Iku/Tenshi. I figured since, you know,
the Ring is supposed to exert such a powerful influence, I thought that the debuff represented control over the characters afflicted by it, so they wouldn't be able to go against it, hence not being able to damage it
. But nah, it's thankfully nothing like that.

Unrelated, I've been thinking about the 550f boss, since it has 500 affinity to every element (including VOI), Sheer Force and Patchouli's take on the skill should actually be incredibly strong against it, provided you're using something like Iron Mountain Charge, Sword of Light, or other moves with good DEF/MND piercing (or moves with high ACC, or both). I don't have any characters in my party that can take advantage of this kind of strategy, but I think it would be really beneficial to try it for those that do.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 07, 2018, 03:28:51 AM
Yeah, my Winner Mokou with Sword of Light should be perfect. And I don't have to worry too much about her going down (resurrection1), nor does it have particularly high HP, so hopefully that'll more or less solve the fight for me.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IRUN on August 07, 2018, 05:23:29 AM
Well, time to start a Sealing Club (+ Rinnosuke and Akyuu) run. Wish me luck.
https://imgur.com/tans6h5 (https://imgur.com/tans6h5)

It feels strange when you finish a game with MP in the nineties, and dealing millions of points of damage, then get destroyed by nut eaters.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 07, 2018, 01:58:13 PM
Defeated the 30f
Ame no Murakumo
: https://youtu.be/d9yvoYJF9i0 (not sure if the transalation of his name is accurate). Actually had to overlevel for this one.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 07, 2018, 02:34:52 PM
Well, time to start a Sealing Club (+ Rinnosuke and Akyuu) run. Wish me luck.
https://imgur.com/tans6h5 (https://imgur.com/tans6h5)

It feels strange when you finish a game with MP in the nineties, and dealing millions of points of damage, then get destroyed by nut eaters.

The earlygame randoms sound like they're going to be depressing. Have fun.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on August 07, 2018, 05:29:33 PM
Wonder if I should do the Infinity Corridor stuff before trying out that new
Ame no Murakumo
boss fight? Might need some of the items there, I suppose.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 07, 2018, 06:05:59 PM
Well, if you haven't gotten your awakenings, you should at least do that for sure. I wouldn't worry too much about the gear from the late bosses, but between their gear and all the quartz/tokugawas/materials you can buy with Dust on the way to them, it's a decent boost.

And if you plan on doing the corridor sooner or later regardless, may as well get started.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on August 07, 2018, 06:09:55 PM
Well, I meant the new Infinity Corridor stuff. I've already done the 1.104 stuff, so, I'm good on that. I grinded to level 2000 somewhen but I saved my money, so as not to make content too easy. I was just wondering which I should do first. I guess my first aim, challenge-wise, should be that
unicorn
. I'd also love to hear if people found any interesting bosses in between. Maybe I can record them, like I did the other ones.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 07, 2018, 09:12:10 PM
If anyone here could be kind enough a to share ToL1's endgame save but preferably before fighting Winner even one time? I wanted to check some things (and some big nostalgy kicks in too), but I lost my saves for that game. I am speaking about Labyrinth of Touhou 1, to be clear :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on August 08, 2018, 01:13:38 AM
If anyone here could be kind enough a to share ToL1's endgame save but preferably before fighting Winner even one time? I wanted to check some things (and some big nostalgy kicks in too), but I lost my saves for that game. I am speaking about Labyrinth of Touhou 1, to be clear :)

Unfortunately, the "closest" I got is a save with WINNER defeated 255 times and everybody at level 3000+ :-)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 08, 2018, 02:17:08 AM
I was watching a stream and it occurred to me; there's still 1 more nigh-guaranteed patch to fix the major overflow issues, so if there's any balance changes to be suggested, they'd need to be emailed before that's too close to finished. (Who knows when he'll put it out, because he's probably taking a break, but someday)

I guess that'd be time to go over the character list a last time. It's to be accepted that balance falls apart from in the stat degeneration in endgame, but there's still stuff like Komachi's endgame irrelevance that can be fixed with stuff like counterattack buff in awakening, maybe tweak Kokoro, etc. And honestly, Eirin's overheal should probably have an overhealing limit, it's busted.

Although Kokoro does seem to have some relevance in fights like 450f/550f where the additional offense up/defense down is worth it, and scales well with mega cheap library, she's still... weird and difficult to use, so people just don't.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Arcvasti on August 08, 2018, 03:16:33 AM
There's still the Sakuya issue, where her using Private Square with Extra Attack murders her MP reserves for no extra benefit. She could also maybe stand to be buffed a little since she relied on Extra Attack + subclass skills so much.

If Strong Faith activates while the user is at max MP, then the display glitches and displays them being above max MP. The value goes back to normal after spending MP, so this is probably not high priority.

I'm unsure if this is only a problem with the english patch, but Explosive Flame Sword's description still says that it's low cost for a subclass skill, despite being super expensive now.

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 08, 2018, 04:07:16 AM
3peso never edits descriptions  :V He left all the Evasion comments in LoT1 in there.

Sakuya's Private Square interaction is definitely an important thing to report. Her new plus disk passive and awakening I think makes her OK still? Man, extra attack people must run out of mp immediately in the base game now. Definitely unfortunate, but ah well.

-Buff Youmu's Slash of Eternity
-Sakuya's Private Square should not activate Extra Attack; additional mp is spent for no benefit
-Buff Komachi's counterattack in awakening; perhaps ignore defense?
-Eirin's overhealing should have a limit. Cap at double max hp?
-Wriggle's awakening should buff poison status. Pierce resistance or increase Poison damage when in front
-Kokoro sounds fun, but is risky to use, without significant benefit. Possible suggestions listed
1.Kokoro's skills to reduce debuffs on allies should also reduce buffs on enemies; using Kokoro is not worth buffing bosses
2.Kokoro buffs when healing, but has none; give her a weak party heal?
3.Kokoro could use a way to start battle with an emotion

Patchouli, Koishi and Tokiko all feel like they could use a tweak, but I'm not entirely sure what. He doesn't seem to want to give Koishi proof of kinship, but her stats are mediocre without family boost and she only gets a weird conditional extra attack with full mp cost. Tokiko has potential, but her heal is really expensive and weird, her attacks are unwieldy, and she isn't strong enough to truly justify just using her without reading for offense. Patchouli doesn't have enough raw power or Mind to really matter unless you have the full SDM team, if even then; and her awakening "damage" buff, High-Speed Aria, is both unreliable and stops being important as speed rises. I considered a damage buff to be paired with Philosopher's Stone, but that clashes with Grand Incantation's suggested playstyle. It feels too late to suggest a new mechanic like Active Philosopher's Stone permanently buffing elemental damage over time.

Maybe Koishi could receive Boost status for evading an attack, but that just makes her skillset even more swingily in favor of evading. She could use -something- that isn't just evasion.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 08, 2018, 08:28:40 AM
Unfortunately, the "closest" I got is a save with WINNER defeated 255 times and everybody at level 3000+ :-)
Oh well, but that would work too :)
I was watching a stream and it occurred to me; there's still 1 more nigh-guaranteed patch to fix the major overflow issues, so if there's any balance changes to be suggested, they'd need to be emailed before that's too close to finished. (Who knows when he'll put it out, because he's probably taking a break, but someday)
Also there seems to be no way to get repeated rewards from achievements for beating final bosses. For example, I found reward for killing
True Dragon Kind
to be exceedingly good balanced, so I could use at least 12 of them (I know that stat boost isn't high, but I like the status protection it gives). It is not bug per se, but I thought there were words about being able to get additional copies of those items.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 08, 2018, 01:23:24 PM
Is the method not to
defeat the lv12400 version
?

If not, I would check Nitori's crafting list after finishing all game content and touching the ball, and after that assume it's a rare drop from 5 star corridor chests after owning one  :V

Actually actually, didn't someone say that the boss strengthen ball had a paragraph about the corridor that he couldn't read well enough to understand? It might seriously be that all the limited boss items are added to the corridor's item pool.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 08, 2018, 01:35:56 PM
Is the method not to
defeat the lv12400 version
?
I don't think it is of any importance
especially if to consider that True Dragon King will respawn in any case
. You get achievement completed and get reward out of it. And some of those rewards don't drop anywhere.
True Dragon King (Enhanced or not)
doesn't drop any loot. Neither does
new Ame no Murakomo
. There is exclusive achievement reward for defeating
WIinner
, and I think there are few more some such unique items.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 08, 2018, 01:48:07 PM
Based on the timing of the posts, I'm not sure I edited my previous post fast enough for you to see it; after remembering about the ball's corridor paragraph I heavily suspect that's what's going on. Although it's good to have confirmation it's -not-
the refights
!

Edit:It should be the words in here. https://imgur.com/8fXP13j
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 08, 2018, 02:12:42 PM
This might be WAY late but

does anyone have the labyrinth of touhou 1 2.04 english patch? all links i have came across so far are dead,i wanna try rebirth
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 08, 2018, 03:17:00 PM
Based on the timing of the posts, I'm not sure I edited my previous post fast enough for you to see it; after remembering about the ball's corridor paragraph I heavily suspect that's what's going on. Although it's good to have confirmation it's -not-
the refights
!

Edit:It should be the words in here. https://imgur.com/8fXP13j
Yeah, I saw your edit only now :)

Good if so. I saw LonelyGaruga also mentioned this. It would be great if someone with knowledge of Japanese could tell us, what do those words actually mean :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 08, 2018, 03:28:56 PM
Ah, I still haven't properly translated it, but looking at it again I think it says that defeating the strengthened bosses adds their items to the Corridor trade-in list. Can someone check if that's the case?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 08, 2018, 03:34:57 PM
The trade-in list?! Oh god... I can only imagine the prices.

I guess I'll have to keep swapping in Aya after all. I only use her to get through Risky floors in the corridor safely.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 08, 2018, 03:55:32 PM
Ah, I still haven't properly translated it, but looking at it again I think it says that defeating the strengthened bosses adds their items to the Corridor trade-in list. Can someone check if that's the case?
Yes, it seems you are right. I killed
Enhanced True Dragon King and Enhanced Ame no Murakumo, of course by using cheated test character, my real characters stand no chance against those,
and now I can see their achievement rewards in IC shop.

Price list is here (warning, spoiler): https://i.imgur.com/LLBeIhq.png
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 08, 2018, 04:03:26 PM
That's
~70 floors worth of
dust and you can't even get it until like, finishing your third loop of the corridor. @.@ Dust Stock maxes at 25% conversion last we tested, so you can't just save it all up ahead of time either... what a silly situation. Even I might never see one of those.

Out of curiosity, can you check
beating all the other strengthened bosses? The 29F fights and Hollow Orochi on b10f, I believe.
Not that their items are really worth buying more of at that point, but.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 08, 2018, 04:35:12 PM
Out of curiosity, can you check
beating all the other strengthened bosses? The 29F fights and Hollow Orochi on b10f, I believe.
Not that their items are really worth buying more of at that point, but.
I think I killed (or rather used cheated character to kill) all strengthened bosses, so here is price list with all new additions: https://i.imgur.com/jj1LhUd.png
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 08, 2018, 05:20:40 PM
Seems like a bit of a waste in the end. By the time you can get these, you don't need them anymore. You're done. There's nothing to prepare for, except I guess even MORE IC. At that point, I'd just start a new game.

Also on the subject of plus disc chars, I think another big reason nobody really uses them is they come too late. By the time you have them, you've already got a well established team and playstyle, it's much less likely you'd throw out somebody to give some new clean slate character a test drive. Not to say that they aren't a bit lackluster too, but if most of the game is already done by the time you have them, they're less attractive to use. Add onto this no (ingame) way to use em even in new game plus and even if you could, they're quite SP demanding to even do anything, and you have characters that have to try VERY hard to get into a team that's already full and decided.

Meanwhile I made it to floor 17, so it's time for another Translation Patch Report. Very minor stuff now. There's a typo in I believe the Byakuren Sutra Scroll 3 event (Nazrin says "They are" instead of "there" or something like that... I don't remember) and the temperature gates have bad formatting that shows the linebreak "@" and cuts off the rest of the message... but it's still perfectly comprehensible anyway.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 08, 2018, 05:45:43 PM
Yeah, at that point it's literally just winner refights and megadeep Corridor. And... by the time you've looped the corridor 3 times, you're probably tired of that; jeez it unlocks so late.
Also on the subject of plus disc chars, I think another big reason nobody really uses them is they come too late.
You're not entirely wrong, but I was also using Miko+Futo+Akyuu all at once when I was in the middle of Plus, and the reason I didn't use more was just because they didn't look... good. Shou is actually pretty meh apart from grinding boosts, unless you're planning to stall harder bosses and build up Wrath (which takes a longg time to actually surpass strong characters), plus she really wants Rinnosuke (and Byakuren) but Rinnosuke gets outclassed when speed gets massive and Byakuren gets outclassed by Sanae. Koishi is bleh unless you run a LOT of certain characters (unless her eva works better than expected?) and Tokiko is kind of awkward at all of her roles, even if she has potential. Mamizou is actually probably fine, just she wasn't top-class enough for me to bite. Her awakening burns a bit of time and doesn't scale well with speed.

And Kokoro, well, her gimmick just doesn't pan out.

Miko and Futo are really good and I enjoyed using them. I almost kept Futo (she's a great character but I minmaxed even harder and she lost to mokou lol), and I only replaced Miko because I plan on overplaying some and she doesn't scale well in post-endgame. I -wanted- to use Koishi but I'd have to like, build my party around her with the full Earth Spirits (why doesn't she have kinship though :c) and Mystia and maybe even Suika and TRR characters. Because she doesn't look all that great unless you try to enable all of her stuff. And the endgame stuff generally has really high accuracy...

tl;dr, I used all the characters who looked good except Mamizou. And I only didn't use the others because they... don't. Tokiko maybe if you value her passives highly enough, but they aren't super important in end meta.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 08, 2018, 08:06:36 PM
Does LoT1 have any good qualities over LoT2? or does everyone agree its a total upgrade
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 08, 2018, 08:23:17 PM
There isn't as much in the realm of overpoweringly strong characters, although they still overbuffed Nitori's main nuke a bit much. There's also some beauty in simplicity, not having to allocate all these passive skills and subclasses, etc. Since the game is, as a result, easier to balance, it plays a bit more stably and you're generally at the exact level of power needed to just manage to overcome the next boss (unless you happen to know/have the exact right party to exploit it to hell and back)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 08, 2018, 10:47:16 PM
Does LoT1 have any good qualities over LoT2? or does everyone agree its a total upgrade
It is my subjective opinion, but I'd say that LoT1 is second best dungeon crawling RPG after LoT2. So even if LoT2 is significantly superior to LoT1, LoT1 is still worth to play just because it is second best and it has its own warm soul.

Also I need to say that I liked SP (Spell Points) system in LoT1 more than MP in LoT2. That was one thing, which was superior, but it is a big thing. In LoT1 you could eventually have almost infinite SP, but In LoT2 you have to constantly watch your MP, and there are many enemies who destroy it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 08, 2018, 11:01:07 PM
It is my subjective opinion, but I'd say that LoT1 is second best dungeon crawling RPG after LoT2. So even if LoT2 is significantly superior to LoT1, LoT1 is still worth to play just because it is second best and it has its own warm soul.

Also I need to say that I liked SP (Spell Points) system in LoT1 more than MP in LoT2. That was one thing, which was superior, but it is a big thing. In LoT1 you could eventually have almost infinite SP, but In LoT2 you have to constantly watch your MP, and there are many enemies who destroy it.

I actually stand on the opposite side of this, I thought MP was one of 2's biggest improvements over 1 specifically BECAUSE it makes it an actual resource you need to pay attention to and make sacrifices for. I found it rather dull how in 1 you could eventually just do any move whenever you wanted with no real worry, which gave you even less reason to actually have backups and a full team of actually useful damage dealers.

Granted it still sorta gets this way in 2. With full gems and MP boosts, just about any character gets an MP pool large enough to last any fight and then some.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 08, 2018, 11:16:12 PM
The boss fights in 1 imo are definitely a strength over 2's bosses, as Serela mentioned the simplicity affects the balance a lot and made the fights more interesting.
Skills and Subclasses were the best and worst thing to happen to 2 as a result, providing a high level of customisation which is a positive for some but in return that high level of customisation means that some boss fights are just... really wonky to say the least.

I prefer SP over MP myself but I see the merit in having it be a resource to be mindful of even into late maingame but I'm lazy so I appreciate the eventual infinite-ness of SP.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 08, 2018, 11:24:36 PM
Spoiler! Stats of true real final super boss of LoT2 :)
Stats of Enhanced True Dragon King.
(Real HP shown, it will have so much HP after overflow is fixed)
1st Phase, 1st Form:
Lv: 12,800
HP: 77,998,750,000
ATK: 575,000,000
DEF: 322,940,000
MAG: 726,600,000
MND: 322,940,000
SPD: 2,480,000
2nd Phase, 2nd Form:
Lv: 12,800
HP: 32,267,660,000
ATK: 872,500,000
DEF: 322,940,000
MAG: 1,000,000
MND: 322,940,000
SPD: 1,363,388
2nd Phase, 3rd Form:
Lv: 12800
HP: 25,488,440,000
ATK: 527,448,000
DEF: 148,488,000
MAG: 1,000,000
MND: 148,488,000
SPD: 1,363,388
3rd Phase, 4th Form:
Lv: 12,800
HP: 74,400,000,000
ATK: 512,000,000
DEF: 77,600,160
MAG: 512,000,000
MND: 77,600,160
SPD: 3,600,000
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 08, 2018, 11:33:30 PM
If you're grabbing stats, can you post the ones for
Lv 1920 Living God Murakumo + its Arms and Lv 2400 Full Power Ryujin-sama?
Affinity values for the latter would be much appreciated too, or at least knowing what the neutral/weak elements are. I think I have a good strategy for the former, but actually getting a no character loss run is proving to be difficult, and more information can't hurt. The AI scripts would be amazing too, but those would be harder to access I'd imagine.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 08, 2018, 11:37:15 PM
If you're grabbing stats, can you post the ones for
Lv 1920 Living God Murakumo + its Arms and Lv 2400 Full Power Ryujin-sama?
Affinity values for the latter would be much appreciated too, or at least knowing what the neutral/weak elements are. I think I have a good strategy for the former, but actually getting a no character loss run is proving to be difficult, and more information can't hurt. The AI scripts would be amazing too, but those would be harder to access I'd imagine.
Sure, I will post it in 15-20 min (except for AI script).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Arcvasti on August 08, 2018, 11:37:34 PM
I just unlocked Flandre, Byakuren and Yuuka on my new run. I'd forgotten how incredibly annoying grinding BP was. Getting 400 BP on Minoriko isn't so bad, since you probably have at least 200 from when you had access to much fewer characters. But getting 400 BP on Nazrin is just soul-crushing, especially since getting Byakuren is the only reason to fish Nazrin out of the trash can. At least now I finally have enough money to get everyone to decent library levels.

Interestingly, I haven't been having nearly as much trouble with the bottleneck bosses this time. 9F Tenshi and the Mirror and Magatama all went down in short order, compared to the hours and hours of refights it took me to beat them on my first few playthroughs. I'm still dreading facing Shredding Amnisieri and Guardian of the Crystals with nerfed Gambler. I really relied on that +90% damage boost for beating them at challenge level...

The boss fights in 1 imo are definitely a strength over 2's bosses, as Serela mentioned the simplicity affects the balance a lot and made the fights more interesting.

Boss fights in 1 were all incredibly annoying because you couldn't see the health bar. If you wanted to not be completely blindsided by the boss entering a panic phase, you had to note down all the damage you did to them and compare it against their health number from the wiki to see how far through the fight you were. Not being able to tell at a glance if you were hitting weakness or not is similarly annoying, but much less tedious to cure via wiki.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 08, 2018, 11:48:38 PM
But getting 400 BP on Nazrin is just soul-crushing, especially since getting Byakuren is the only reason to fish Nazrin out of the trash can.
Yeah, I would highly recommend to anyone to just use all characters when you get them until you hit their needed BP value. Using Nazrin for several floors early/midgame isn't a big deal, she hits plenty of weaknesses and you probably don't have a lot of the characters you want to use yet.

SDM though I just manually grinded. Too many characters I wasn't planning on using. I think I used Meiling for real, and did grind with Komachi+the other 3 sdm members, since I didn't want to use Komachi and she doesn't need bp until way late like SDM.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 09, 2018, 12:02:59 AM
If you're grabbing stats, can you post the ones for
Lv 1920 Living God Murakumo + its Arms and Lv 2400 Full Power Ryujin-sama?
Affinity values for the latter would be much appreciated too, or at least knowing what the neutral/weak elements are. I think I have a good strategy for the former, but actually getting a no character loss run is proving to be difficult, and more information can't hurt. The AI scripts would be amazing too, but those would be harder to access I'd imagine.
By
Full Power Ryujin-sama you mean Dragon God at 2400 (not 12800)
? Stats of other one is below: Sry for a lot of black text, spoiler :) There is one unknown affinity type, I marked it as ???
Sword:
Lv: 1920
HP: 1,267,700,000
ATK: 7,000,000
DEF: 12,800,000
MAG: 7,000,000
MND: 12,800,000
SPD: 65,536
EVA: 4
ACC: 128
FIR, CLD, WND. NTR, MYS: 100
SPI, DRK: 200
PHY, ???: 100
PSN: 200
PAR: 100
HVY: 0
SHK: 1000
TRR: 0
SIL: 200
DTH: 1000
DBFATK: 0
DBFDEF: 200
DBFMAG: 1000
DBFMND: 200
DBFSPD: 0
Right Arm (on left part of screen):
Lv: 1920
HP: 452,540,000
ATK: 11,880,000
DEF: 18,800,000
MAG: 988,000
MND: 2,560,000
SPD: 40,000
EVA: 0
ACC: 100
FIR: 100
CLD, WND: 200
NTR: 50
MYS: 100
SPI: 50
DRK: 500
PHY: 200
???, PSN, PAR, HVY, SHK, TRR: 100
SIL: 1000
DTH, DBFATK, DBFDEF, DBFMAG, DBFMND: 40
DBFSPD: 100
Left Arm (on right part of screen):
Lv: 1920
HP: 372,570,000
ATK: 988,000
DEF: 2,560,000
MAG: 8,488,000
MND: 18,800,000
SPD: 30,000
EVA: 0
ACC: 108
FIR: 50
CLD: 200
WND: 100
NTR, MYS: 200
SPI: 500
DRK: 50
PHY, ???, PSN: 100
PAR, HVY: 0
SHK: 100
TRR, SIL: 0
DTH: 1000
DBFATK, DBFDEF, DBFMAG, DBFMND, DBFSPD: 200
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 09, 2018, 12:03:23 AM
Boss fights in 1 were all incredibly annoying because you couldn't see the health bar. If you wanted to not be completely blindsided by the boss entering a panic phase, you had to note down all the damage you did to them and compare it against their health number from the wiki to see how far through the fight you were. Not being able to tell at a glance if you were hitting weakness or not is similarly annoying, but much less tedious to cure via wiki.
I find the lack of health bar to have made fights more interesting, most times the boss enters a desperation phase it's after doing a move that drains the entire ATB bar, and in most cases its really not hard to get a feel for when it may start to happen even without counting damage numbers religiously, so you really should have at least some chance of preparation for it. I'll give you the point about weakness though.

I actually found HP bars more disappointing than anything, it's all nice and dandy shooting a boss with Nitori and then realising that you only need 2-3 more of them to win. The unpredictability of 1 was a pro not a con in this sense and forced you to play smarter all the time rather than just blasting the enemy away knowing how much was left.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on August 09, 2018, 12:35:41 AM
I definitely prefer the MP system in 2, but I feel that the skillpoints have the same problem SP did in 1. Eventually, you just don't need to worry about it anymore and can simply take every single skill. Awakening just makes this limit a lot higher, but it's still there.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 09, 2018, 12:39:36 AM
Honestly, I feel like the problem is moreso that you can barely afford any skills for the first half of the game. Characters are more fun to use when they're got all their tricks. It really limits NG-ing most of the postgame characters, too.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 09, 2018, 12:46:44 AM
If you're grabbing stats, can you post the ones for
Lv 1920 Living God Murakumo + its Arms and Lv 2400 Full Power Ryujin-sama?
Affinity values for the latter would be much appreciated too, or at least knowing what the neutral/weak elements are. I think I have a good strategy for the former, but actually getting a no character loss run is proving to be difficult, and more information can't hurt. The AI scripts would be amazing too, but those would be harder to access I'd imagine.
And here are the stats for
True Dragon God
. Sorry for black text again, but spoiler is spoiler :)
1st Phase, 1st Form:
Lv: 2,400
HP: 2,400,000,000
ATK: 11,800,000
DEF: 10,000,000
MAG: 14,400,000
MND: 10,000,000
SPD: 88,000
EVA: 4
ACC: 120
FIR, CLD, WND, NTR, MYS: 100
SPI, DRK, PHY, ???, PSN: 100
PAR, HVY, SHK, TRR, SIL: 100
DTH: 1000
DBFATK, DBFDEF, DBFMAG, DBFMND, DBFSPD: 100
2nd Phase, 2nd Form:
Lv: 2,400
HP: 899,000,000
ATK: 16,600,000
DEF: 10,000,000
MAG: 1,000,000
MND: 10,000,000
EVA: 4
ACC: 108
FIR: 200,
CLD, WND: 100
NTR: 50
MYS, SPI, DRK: 100
PHY: 500
???: 100
PSN, PAR, HVY, SHK, TRR, SIL: 0
DTH: 1000
DBFATK, DBFDEF, DBFMAG, DBFMND, DBFSPD: 200
2nd Phase, 3rd Form:
Lv: 2,400
HP: 677,000,000
ATK: 10,800,000
DEF: 5,000,000
MAG: 1,000,000
MND: 5,000,000
SPD: 48,000
EVA: 4
ACC: 108
FIR: 100
CLD: 200
WND: 500
NTR, MYS, SPI: 100
DRK: 50
PHY, ???: 100
PSN, PAR, HVY, SHK, TRR, SIL: 200
DTH: 1000
DBFATK, DBFDEF, DBFMAG, DBFMND: 0
DBFSPD: 10
3rd Phase, 4th Form:
Lv: 2,400
HP: 2,400,000,000
ATK: 12,800,000
DEF: 2,560,000
MAG: 12,800,000
MND: 2,560,000
SPD: 128,000
EVA: 0
ACC: 200
FIR, CLD, WND, NTR: 66
MYS, SPI, DRK: 500
PHY, ???: 100
PSN, PAR, HVY, SHK, TRR, SIL: 200
DTH: 1000
DBFATK, DBFDEF, DBFMAG, DBFMND, DBFSPD: 0
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on August 09, 2018, 01:01:58 AM
Honestly, I feel like the problem is moreso that you can barely afford any skills for the first half of the game. Characters are more fun to use when they're got all their tricks. It really limits NG-ing most of the postgame characters, too.

Well, I'd think a solution would be to reduce the cost, start off with more points, but then only get a skill point every 5 or 10 levels, and cap out at some point. With a cap you can't just grab everything and forget about it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Validon98 on August 09, 2018, 01:57:18 AM
Pretty much the problem I've constantly had with LoT2, when trying to restart to try a new team, is that going through the first parts of the game are so slow and painful that I usually get burnt out around third stratum and just sorta leave the file to rot. There's so many things I want to try but going through the entire game to try them is just too annoying, not to mention that everyone being more complex, but with so many different ways to boost them, ends up being so many resources to juggle that I'd rather not.

Granted, I've enjoyed doing Team 9, since I stuck with it to the super postgame, but that's still four people only. There's a reason why I'd rather just use a save that starts with normal postgame cleared and starts immediately at Plus Disk start, because that's when things get interesting.

This kind of thing does make me wonder if there's any way to turn off spell animations with Cheat Engine or something. Just to make things go along faster. That usually keeps my motivation going when I can just go through battles without sitting there watching animations for too long.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 09, 2018, 02:41:47 AM
By
Full Power Ryujin-sama you mean Dragon God at 2400 (not 12800)
?

Yeah, that's what I meant. Thanks for posting
Murakumo's
stats. The weaknesses are higher than I thought they were, that explains the damage I'm seeing. I can
2-3 shot the Right Arm
with Tenshi's World Creation Press with Murakumo's Blessing, max buffs, and a DEF debuff, but it looks like even if I were to try the strongest Start of Heavenly Demise in my party, I cannot do any better than a 2-shot. That's too bad, ah well.

I've done a few runs now to get a feel for its AI, so far
Murakumo appears to take more turns to revive an Arm each time it's defeated. I haven't paid attention to if there's a cap or if it's +1 turn every time it's revived, or if it's a nonlinear increase. My present strategy has been to demolish the Right Arm with Tenshi, then work on Murakumo with her, with the intent of using Iku + Satori to PAR lock the Left Arm and use Warrior Momiji to deal with it using Explosive Flame Sword as the final step in the battle. My original strategy was to reduce the damage of the full power counter as much as possible using Elementalist Rumia, Strategist, Dragon God's Power, and 500 SPI/DRK affinity on everyone, but while the full power counter is reasonably damaging this way, it's still too much to withstand all of the attacks from Murakumo and its arms all at once in addition. On the other hand, this strategy means I can attack Murakumo freely when the Right Arm is down because the counter is fairly tame, even Tenshi can take two hits. In my best run so far, I was able to get Murakumo down to about 40% of its HP (Tenshi can take off about 10% in one hit with all buffs + a DEF debuff), but I had foolishly switched in a character with 85 MP in the frontline only for them to be victimized by Yakumo's Futsu no Mitama no Tsurugi, seeing it restore 532m HP. That's 42% of its HP, so it appears that the attack heals 1% per 1 MP drained. I suspect that it's used as part of a set AI behavior like the enhanced 20f Murakumo, I need to review the recording and count its turns to see if this is the case or not. In the end, I ended up seeing two characters defeated by the Left Arm's Shining Arrows from the Sky because I started running out of MP on Rumia and Sanae, my primary healers. Rumia is especially important because she's my only MT healer for dealing with Murakumo's counter, discounting Enhancer Keine. MP is the biggest issue in the fight due to Murakumo's MP draining attacks and the sheer length of the fight, if there's any alterations to be made to my current strategy it's toward figuring out how to shorten it.

Living God Murakumo
has my new vote for toughest boss in the game. There's a lot of random elements to it that cannot be avoided, and troublesome moves like Black Universe and Time-Space Warp.

I started writing before you posted
Full Power Ryujin-sama's
stats, thanks for posting those too. So it remains neutral at worst to NTR throughout the entire fight. Looks like Tenshi can possibly solo it with some MP maintenance. Very convenient to have that kind of information beforehand instead of going through the fight without being able to plan ahead, that's a big help.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 09, 2018, 08:39:55 AM
But getting 400 BP on Nazrin is just soul-crushing, especially since getting Byakuren is the only reason to fish Nazrin out of the trash can.

While the Byakuren part is very true, with a good bit of library points in magic, high power equipment, levels in Gold Rush and level up points in Magic, Nazrin can deal a great bit of damage to enemies (and OHKO PHY-weak ones and then chain extra attack off of them) on 7F-9F, which is what I've been doing the last two times I opened up the game (I'm right after Iku, btw).

It's wack how I've played this main game at least like, four or five times now and am still finding new things. For example, full mag Eirin actually makes a great mob clearer for 7F-9F because she has a CLD AoE (which is also what makes Nitori a monster on this floor) and MYS for those weird creepy plants. Also, I'm finally starting to properly utilize Satori and she's an absolute blessing when done right.

Also Hina is still god. Keeping her in my lineup and just not updating my team composition beyond the most basic resistance items for boss fights and just debuffing everything with her works stupidly well.

I'm gonna be tackling 9F next, so we'll see how that goes for me this time. I remember Calamity Four 9F Tenshi being pretty amusing, the same goes for that one draft run I had where I used Charge as a joke and then saw Renko survive Tenshi's buff-removal slash up until the point where I just let Renko stock up on SPI resistance, buff the whole party and have Nazrin sub in as a healer to keep her up while the rest of the team pummeled her and no one died at all. That to me was one of my favorite LoT2 moments (which involved a NG+).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 09, 2018, 12:41:05 PM
Defeated the last boss of the IC on 640f: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKfqtpw4mYs& (this fight is so RNG  :V)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 09, 2018, 01:11:22 PM
Congrats Libra! Reminds me I need to continue my corridor trek. I'm on ~436F but I'm lv2200, so I can get towards 600F fine... I don't have plans for quite awhile today, so I think I'll slam out a lot of corridor.
Also Hina is still god. Keeping her in my lineup and just not updating my team composition beyond the most basic resistance items for boss fights and just debuffing everything with her works stupidly well.
Seriously. Until many late bosses got more resistant, Hina solidly earned a spot in my party purely to land debuffs and swap out. Although honestly, it was bad planning; I swapped her to Herbalist insanely late but I should have been running her as it the whole time just so she had a little more to do. Dead weight on resistant bosses, nothing to do but swap after landing the debuff since it's already so strong... oops :V


EDIT:I believe the 450F Corridor boss is guaranteed to use Magnificent Darkness at HP intervals, because I fought it while massively overleveled and like 5 of it's 6 moves have just been that over and over.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 09, 2018, 04:41:22 PM
Is there any good grinding spot on 29F? i am trying to kill the three grayed out maribel summons,yet i cant find a suitable grinding spot beside spaming leavetin on some B11F enemies

EDIT

is this supposed to happen? i swear i only got 1-2 enemies before i applied the 1.105 patch,did it fixed the dragon god passives?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 09, 2018, 05:30:22 PM
Is there any good grinding spot on 29F? i am trying to kill the three grayed out maribel summons,yet i cant find a suitable grinding spot beside spaming leavetin on some B11F enemies
Not really, just use anywhere. If you've killed any of the bosses (the two heroes is easiest) you should go grind metal kedamas on 30F instead though, that's miles and miles away the best EXP until you're ready to grind b11f.

The dragon god passives were fixed in the patch before this one, and you only get 1-2 enemies in the portion of b11f that was available in the previous patch; the new areas are the ones drowning in enemies. That's the prime grinding spot from like, lv1200 to lv... uh... 2400+? >.>;; Far enough to finish everything except post-endgame corridor loops. It gets faster as you become able to kill them in less moves, and you want a bajillion of their gem/jewel drops anyway. You actually might be able to farm it earlier if you use big buffs and boosts on Flandre and cast Lavaeteinn.



Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 09, 2018, 05:49:28 PM
Not really, just use anywhere. If you've killed any of the bosses (the two heroes is easiest) you should go grind metal kedamas on 30F instead though, that's miles and miles away the best EXP until you're ready to grind b11f.

The dragon god passives were fixed in the patch before this one, and you only get 1-2 enemies in the portion of b11f that was available in the previous patch; the new areas are the ones drowning in enemies. That's the prime grinding spot from like, lv1200 to lv... uh... 2400+? >.>;; Far enough to finish everything except post-endgame corridor loops. It gets faster as you become able to kill them in less moves, and you want a bajillion of their gem/jewel drops anyway. You actually might be able to farm it earlier if you use big buffs and boosts on Flandre and cast Lavaeteinn.

Wait,i can access 30F? yes i did killed the hero duo,i will try finding the staircase or anything for now must have missed it
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 09, 2018, 06:22:46 PM
Yeah, you should be able to reach the stairs before killing any bosses on 29f- just there's a rock in the way that wants you to beat a fight. Happy trails~

For kedama farming, you'll need Aya (seriously- they're -fast- and usually run) and someone with either Piercing Attack or a 90%-grade defense ignore skill, or a good instant death skill. Equip them with some accuracy boost gear. At your level you might consider running away from non-kedama fights, which means Chen in the back row for TP penalty reduction. And last you just need to know the two spots they have a high spawn rate... which is somewhere in the previous thread z.z I'm lazyyyy
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 09, 2018, 06:24:17 PM
Yeah there was a tiny bit i didnt decided to explore on the east side and then poof,a long trek to get to 30F

now to see if i can find a elusive golden kedama and prepare accordingly,hopefully flandre can one shot it
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 09, 2018, 07:04:05 PM
Alright, this is the two spots with high metal kedama spawn rates. Outlined in green on top/bottom. (the red blip in the top is just my location indicator)
(http://puu.sh/BbwLQ.png)
As a warning tho', even though Starbow Break pierces a good amount of defense, I'm not sure Flandre can actually damage these things without buffs/debuffs, which you don't have time to apply. You'll really need one of the things I listed earlier. If you don't have any in your party, I'd Awaken Shou, make her an Appraiser, put on +ACC gear and an Angel Slime Hat, and use Radiant Treasure Gun for lots of bonus exp/money.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 10, 2018, 02:36:40 AM
Did some more runs on 30f
Murakumo
to study its AI. This is what I've determined.

Living God: Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi
Random Actions: Magic Drain, Destroy Magic, Spirit Drain (halve TP), Destroy Spirit (TP to 0), Black Universe, Time-Space Warp, Golden Protection, World-Shaking Military Rule, Oracle of Sacred Mirror Dedication, Oracle of Eternal Heaven and Earth
Oracle of Eternal Heaven and Earth appears to be used more frequently when there are more debuffs present, which is how it worked in the 20 enhanced Murakumo fight, but it can be used when there are no debuffs present. Similarly, Oracle of Sacred Mirror Dedication can be used when Murakumo is at full health.

Turn 1: Random
Turn 2: Random
Turn 3: Godly Scarlet Gold Slash
Turn 4: Random
Turn 5: Random
Turn 6: Yakumo's Futsu no Mitami no Tsurugi
Turn 7: Random
Turn 8: Random
Turn 9: Great Destruction
Repeat Turn 1-8
Turn 9: Great Catastrophe
Repeat Turn 1-8
Turn 9: Great Despair (Frontline TP to 0)
Repeat (I haven't gone any further so I can't confirm if it does repeat or not)

Reviving Arms does not advance this pattern.

Living God's Right Arm:
Random Actions: Dividing Slash, Instant Death Attack

Turn 1: Random
Turn 2: Greatsword of Calamity
Turn 3: Random
Turn 4: Greatsword of Calamity
Turn 5: Random
Turn 6: Scythe of Calamity
Turn 7: Random
Turn 8: True Greatsword of Calamity
Turn 9: Random
Turn 10: World-Shaking Military Rule
Turn 11: Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi's Wild Dance
Repeat

Living God's Left Arm
Random Actions: Red Curse, Blue Curse, Purple Curse, Green Curse, Yellow Curse

Turn 1: Random
Turn 2: Storm of Light Particles
Turn 3: Random
Turn 4: Storm of Light Particles
Turn 5: Random
Turn 6: Great Tree that Descended from the Sky
Turn 7: Random
Turn 8: Shining Arrows from the Sky
Turn 9: Random
Turn 10: Magical Blast
Turn 11: MAG Up
Turn 12: Random
Repeat

When the Arms are defeated and revived, their AI pattern resets to the beginning. From what I've seen, Murakumo revives them

1st defeat: Next turn
2nd defeat: 2 turns later
3rd defeat: 3 turns later
4th defeat: 3 turns later
5th defeat: 4 turns later

I haven't been able to test further.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 10, 2018, 02:58:29 AM
Corridor flashes aren't as bad when I shrink the window significantly... guess that works enough. Makes it easier to watch a stream in the backround too.

Another idea for a suggestion is...
-Shou's "Bishamonten's Wrath" should not be reset by Shredder

It just takes Shou's one specialty, being a slow-burn character who eventually turns into a juggernaut (if she survives that long...) and wrecks it. Sooo many of the harder bosses have Shredder.

As an aside, Maribel wrecks on the touhou fights with Majesty. If she gets attacked by an enemy with 100% buffs (possible with majesty) she actually can get HEALED by the attack! XD I think it's either a strange interaction with damage reducing effects, or a strange interaction with 100% buffed enemies that have a white buff on as well, where their attack/magic ends up reduced by more than 100% of it's existing value. However, a test on Heavenly Shou shows that the effects of white buffs are not reversed by themselves. In any case, being healed by a boss in normal gameplay is amusing.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 10, 2018, 03:05:54 AM
Okay this is my setup to farm on 30F currently,i am the kind of person that prefers finishing thrash in 1 turn

Dragon power Rinnosuke,strategish Komachi,appraiser Shou awakened and holy power flandre everyone equipped with violent green rupee for 12% extra money drop

and of course pumping flandre to the point she outspeeds and kills every possible encounter on the floor on 1 turn,i found shou and aya waiting for a metal kedama too annoying for my peanut brain
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 10, 2018, 03:07:58 AM
Well hey, that works  :V Although kedamas should be pretty common if you go to the specific spots, if you're killing everything in one turn then that's pretty good grinding itself.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 10, 2018, 03:21:34 AM
Well hey, that works  :V Although kedamas should be pretty common if you go to the specific spots, if you're killing everything in one turn then that's pretty good grinding itself.

Looks like i didnt went to the right ones,now i am seeing them pretty often and even doubles,maybe gonna replace komachi with aya on situations like those for shou

OTHERWISE LEAVETIN WIPING,metal kedamas still outspeed flancakes
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 10, 2018, 11:58:20 AM
Yeah, metals are crazy fast. Their exp is pretty crazy too though, it's still probably faster to have Aya in there to enable killing 'em. I wonder if a Super Drill could let Flan scratch 'em... well, eventually it would, but might take too many levels .
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Validon98 on August 10, 2018, 01:18:08 PM
Metal Kedamas are decent for if you've yet to do the first part of B11F, but the massive swarms of enemies at the second part are much better experience and money, especially once you're able to sweep them easily (which Start of Heavenly Demise is good for). I don't think there's any better place in the dungeon for XP/money at this point than B11F.

(https://i.gyazo.com/8c39310dc6e33b62125f0cfc8d273ed0.png)

Pictured: a typical B11F encounter after you start getting enemy swarms.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 10, 2018, 01:32:18 PM
Oh absolutely, b11f > metal kedamas. But you hit 30F at like lv700, so... you need -several- hundred kedama levels to make it to an appropriate 11f mob grind point XD

Meanwhile, slowly, slowly trekking through the corridor... at like 515f now. Honestly, if infinite corridor is supposed to be a thing, my next suggestion would be...
-After 640F, lower the size of Corridor floors and remove flashes from events to make exploration faster.

Also, even with lv2000 bosses, it's extremely evident that status effects.. stop really working. Making status-reliant characters have extremely long-lasting moves like how he buffed Parsee's TRR kind of works, for awhile, but there's too many people to cover... maybe my previous suggestion on Wriggle should just be making her PSN last longer in awakening to counteract rising speed. Too late to add something like "gives you special item that doubles length of everyone's status effects". It'd be pretty good if you got one of those after every loop of corridor or something, but ah well, we'll just have an endgame without statuses other than debuffs.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 10, 2018, 04:03:58 PM
Seriously. Until many late bosses got more resistant, Hina solidly earned a spot in my party purely to land debuffs and swap out. Although honestly, it was bad planning; I swapped her to Herbalist insanely late but I should have been running her as it the whole time just so she had a little more to do. Dead weight on resistant bosses, nothing to do but swap after landing the debuff since it's already so strong... oops :V

Used her up against 9F Tenshi as Hexer with Hexer's conversion. She took zero damage from pretty much all attacks so when she had no debuffing to do she was just solid on the switching job together with Meiling, getting Wriggle/Satori in for poison and Nitori for Iron Mountain Charge. Went pretty smoothly, just had to play patient, that's all.

Remi and Sakuya are up next, though I might have to level a little bit beforehand. Especially considering after that it'll be the dreaded Magatama and Mirror followed by the laughable Tenshi fight. I'd consider my own pace decently fast when it comes to exploring floors and what not, can't wait for when I'm done with main game again though. Really itching to see what Plus has to offer.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 10, 2018, 04:19:46 PM
Apparently i can handle B11F mobs now except the giant oni demon (takes 2 turns to kill)

any ways i can increase my front damage with backrow passive effects? would adding patchouli to the backrow help with flandre damage? front row is meiling with dragon god passives,strategist remilia,herbalist aya and gambler flandre
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 10, 2018, 04:25:27 PM
Backrow Patch will give 5% more damage, whatever that's worth. If you don't particularly want to run Patchy (she's not that amazing) I wouldn't bother, it's a trivial amount. Just overspend on her library, get all the boosts/gems/jewels for her atk/mag if you haven't, and keep grinding up more to raise her ATK. Alternatively replace Aya; a speed-centric Akyuu's boost instead of herbalist boost, or speed-build Sakuya with herbalist for 10% stats. Or Iku's huge atk/mag buff. That does mean you won't outspeed Sirens, though, and Flan has 0 SIL resist... welp. :T Akyuu would cure when she moved, at least.

Used her up against 9F Tenshi as Hexer with Hexer's conversion. She took zero damage from pretty much all attacks so when she had no debuffing to do she was just solid on the switching job together with Meiling, getting Wriggle/Satori in for poison and Nitori for Iron Mountain Charge. Went pretty smoothly, just had to play patient, that's all.
Hexer's Conversion (as well as debuffed hina in general) is pretty dang strong, but I was opting to just play her normally so I could freely use my multitarget buffs. Conversion is pretty strong if you're willing to run debuffed-Hina build, though! Still... I'd be tempted to make her a Healer or something just so she'd have more to do. Later in the game, at least. Midgame, just being able to survive like a boulder is more than enough.

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 10, 2018, 05:07:51 PM
Hexer's Conversion (as well as debuffed hina in general) is pretty dang strong, but I was opting to just play her normally so I could freely use my multitarget buffs. Conversion is pretty strong if you're willing to run debuffed-Hina build, though! Still... I'd be tempted to make her a Healer or something just so she'd have more to do. Later in the game, at least. Midgame, just being able to survive like a boulder is more than enough.

Yeah, I usually run debuffed Hina 'cuz it's easier to set up and it's what I'm used to from Calamity Four, anyway. She's just a remarkable tank and can get in some decent damage too with the right stuff. Dunno how she'll be later but her goofy performance for the main game alone makes me love her. Aside from that, it's also pretty fun to see Nazrin OHKO things - I gave her Sorcerer for more damage and MP and also Aspiration Surge so she can hit four out of eight elements, which overall makes her pretty respectable. Extra Steps' synergy with switching in Instant Attack characters is also pretty darn fun when Nazrin isn't cutting it anymore. I don't even know how many enemy groups I murdered with Nazrin OHKOing someone into Chen cleaning up with Phoenix Spread Wings on 7-9F.

I think I'll try Sakuya and Remi soon to see how that goes. At least after that it's a little calmer with 11F and what not. The early strata really do have a fair few bosses to chew through.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 10, 2018, 06:44:26 PM
Got 30f
Murakumo
down to 13% HP without losing any characters only for
Time-Space Warp
to ruin things. I'm still working on a better run, but for now I thought I might upload that attempt, because it doesn't just show what I did right, but also what I did wrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHO8uWmdCPA

Learning the AI was a big help, but keeping track of what's going to happen next and being ready for it can be tricky, especially when the random elements mess things up.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 10, 2018, 07:21:30 PM
Almost done with floor 20. Most of the dialogue on this floor is broken. Reimu has untranslated lines after picking up the seals (the line about going back to floor 19) and then most of the dialogue after is untranslated, entering the depths, confronting the final boss, and the ending. I haven't seen the scene introducing Plusdisk, because I haven't actually cleared the floor yet on this file, but I have confirmed the standard ending is untranslated on my old lvl1100 file.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 10, 2018, 08:50:39 PM
After replaying the first two floors of LoT1 i am glad LoT2 got random encounter decrease skills (And chen passive) exploration is such a pain with a battle every 10 steps
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 10, 2018, 08:59:53 PM
After replaying the first two floors of LoT1 i am glad LoT2 got random encounter decrease skills (And chen passive) exploration is such a pain with a battle every 10 steps
Yeahh... I've hit 601F in the corridor, and I can't imagine doing all this without two stacking encounter reduction skills. (Also, ooofffff, that might be enough for today... 100 floors. Only 40 left, though! @.@; )
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 10, 2018, 09:26:37 PM
Yeahh... I've hit 601F in the corridor, and I can't imagine doing all this without two stacking encounter reduction skills. (Also, ooofffff, that might be enough for today... 100 floors. Only 40 left, though! @.@; )
I think that Infinite Corridor wasn't made so you could go through 100 floors in one sitting :) Though I must admit, I went through 600 floors in 3 days and I was feeling a bit sick after it XD

Eventually you will reach a point when bosses and encounters will be too hard and experience from B11F will no longer cut it :) So you will have to fight something in Infinite Corridor :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 10, 2018, 09:28:57 PM
Is there any in story reason why ame no murakumo keeps returning or why you are fighting the dragon god?

I think that Infinite Corridor wasn't made so you could go through 100 floors in one sitting :) Though I must admit, I went through 600 floors in 3 days and I was feeling a bit sick after it XD

Eventually you will reach a point when bosses and encounters will be too hard and experience from B11F will no longer cut it :) So you will have to fight something in Infinite Corridor :)

Then explain the seven star trade item list,some of those need plenty of floors in a row to even consider buying the thing
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 10, 2018, 09:47:24 PM
Then explain the seven star trade item list,some of those need plenty of floors in a row to even consider buying the thing
I don't think you can even see them in price list before beating extremely high level bosses, who are far beyond totally unkillable for people here, you need to be over 10,000 Lv to stand a chance against some of them. In terms of Infinite Corridor power level - it is around 2,500F of IC. This is far beyond what people have here yet.

And after all, you can just save dust, can't you? Or there are some limitations with dust which I am not aware of? At least it will be a good goal (saving dust for those items) while going into extreme depths of IC. At least something to aim for when you are basically done with the game and only IC is left.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 10, 2018, 10:04:16 PM
I think that Infinite Corridor wasn't made so you could go through 100 floors in one sitting :)
Well yeah, and that's fair during the normal course of the game. The problem is when literally the only thing left in the game is infinite corridor, and strengthened bosses were put in to account for gameplay outside of the corridor, with tangible rewards, for about two more loops of the thing. The only real content left is doing corridor bosses and out-of-corridor bosses; until you unlock the last item (after your third run of the whole corridor...) there isn't even a reason to chain floors and collect dust! Since if you wanna buy charms and statues, you can absolutely finish before 640f, and probably should whilst it's easy to overgrind.

At which point, taking hours to do any significant number of floors is just a pain (exploration is literally just an obstacle between your scaling refights- it's no longer benefitting clearing the game, which you've already done), and encourages putting the game down instead of actually playing the scaling content. Also, when "you have to fight something in the corridor", you're gonna use the M key, not random encounters while trying to explore. Especially because you'll probably want to find a good exp or money bonus effect, and/or a lucky/risky floor to do it on until you need to refresh your tp/mp. (The encounter reduction is very nice in those floors...)
 
Also also, you can't really stock dust ahead of time very well. The dust stock maxes at 25%, which is just a consolation prize if you die and lose your chain; it's nowhere near enough to want to use it to save up dust on purpose when you could be buying additional awakening items with dust->infinite gems instead. And as far as buying a bunch of tokugawa statues go, yes, it's intended to play about 50 floors of corridor in one sitting  :V Furthermore, once you do get the final stuff, you seriously DO have to play nearly 100 floors at once to afford it. (If you make sure to clear lots of events, you can do it in more like 70, but... yeah, that takes several hours.)

The floors are understandable as-is for the first loop. But it just discourages playing after that. "Ok, my only content left is refights in the corridor, and... exploring it is a pain in the neck and takes forever!"
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 10, 2018, 11:39:52 PM
Yeah, a lot of that is why I intend to stop playing after beating 640f Corridor boss (plan after 30f
Murakumo
is 550f Corridor boss, Lv 2400 ***WINNER***, true final boss, 640f Corridor boss). The game just doesn't do much to encourage grinding all the way to Lv 12800 or beyond, and a lot to discourage it. I already have almost 400 hours invested into the game, so I'm pretty happy with how much I've been able to get out of it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 11, 2018, 11:26:51 AM
Yeah, a lot of that is why I intend to stop playing after beating 640f Corridor boss (plan after 30f
Murakumo
is 550f Corridor boss, Lv 2400 ***WINNER***, true final boss, 640f Corridor boss). The game just doesn't do much to encourage grinding all the way to Lv 12800 or beyond, and a lot to discourage it. I already have almost 400 hours invested into the game, so I'm pretty happy with how much I've been able to get out of it.
Well, you can always play after that like completing 2 floors here, 2 floors there, a couple of floors today, a couple more tomorrow :)

Personally, I think that game only ends when you beat the hardest non-scaling boss in the game. So far it is
Enhanced True Dragon God Lv.12800
. And after this is done, it might be fun to see how high your stats can grow, and how stupidly more powerful some bosses in IC can become :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 11, 2018, 12:27:56 PM
Yeah, I think it's going to be a thing where I do 10 floors once every now and then. I imagine I'll probably get bored before I finish even the next loop, though, unless there's changes.

It's fun to imagine doing a lot, but the corridor is just a pain. If it was easier to dive down, I'd probably overplay quite a bit.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 11, 2018, 01:37:48 PM
Who is currently the final bonus boss?
Sauron ring? powered dragon god? WINNER? on what floor is said final enemy located?

I triggered something in B11F after those tedious metal ball puzzles,not sure where to go next as i still need to defeat the summon hero
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 11, 2018, 01:47:48 PM
The final bosses are
True Dragon God on 30F and Will of Gensokyo in the end of the Corridor on 640F.
They have about the same level but I'm not sure it's reasonable to beat the latter at that level (finally reached it!), haven't tried the 30F one yet. You could also consider Winner refights to count, though, and then there's the Strengthened bosses which have levels more in the tune of 5000+.

Triggering the orb on B11F unlocks one of the rocks on 30F. If you still have 29F bosses to defeat though, you should probably do that first. I think you'll just be blocked by another rock telling you to do that, anyway?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 11, 2018, 01:51:58 PM
Looks like its back to grinding,or change my tactics until i slay it

oddly the twin heroes spawned again for some reason,gonna let that slide for now
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 11, 2018, 02:04:19 PM
All the 29F bosses respawn. Oh, and rocks on 29f will be passable after you beat it's corresponding boss once. That's how you get their special reward gear.

Yeah, once you explore the puzzle areas in 30F (which aren't locked by rocks) and all of b11f, exploration is over. It's all just grinding, bosses, and infinite corridor dives.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 11, 2018, 03:27:54 PM
So, some more spoilers. Stats of
Liquid Metal Boss
on 550F. I also added stats of this boss on 2nd and 3rd cycle of IC (1190F and 1830F respectively). On 2nd cycle
his HP overflows
. On 3rd cycle
ATK, DEF, MAG, MND all overflow
. I am not sure if
SPD overflows eventually too
, but most likely it is. Probably something to tell to 3peso that it isn't only HP which is an issue here. Very hilarious,
on 3rd cycle boss heals with his attacks as can be seen on screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/i1W1ctL.png
550F - Lv: 2127
HP: 54,320,138
ATK: 11,532,393
DEF: 93,779,366
MAG: 11,532,393
MND: 93,779,366
SPD: 369,602
EVA: 100
ACC: 100
FIR, CLD, WND, NTR, MYS, SPI, DRK, PHY: 500
???: 400
PSN: 80
PAR: 1000
HVY: 50
SHK, TRR: 1000
SIL: 50
DTH: 1000
DBFATK, DBFDEF, DBFMAG, DBFMND, DBFSPD, ???: 56
REWARDS: 152,797,000 EXP; 38,199,250 MONEY

1190F - Lv: 4335
HP: [36 20 E0 EA FF FF FF FF] (-354410442)
ATK: 47,838,036
DEF: 389,194,905
MAG: 47,838,036
MND: 389,194,905
SPD: 1,529,816
(other stats don't scale)
REWARDS: 634,749,750 EXP; 158,687,250 MONEY

1830F - Lv: 6543
HP: 187,107,516
ATK: [94 C8 C3 FF FF FF FF FF]
DEF: 74,908,915
MAG: [94 C8 C3 FF FF FF FF FF]
MND: 74.908,915
SPD: 3,481,644
REWARDS: 1,445,528,500 EXP; 361,382,000 MONEY
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 11, 2018, 03:56:18 PM
Oh, so it actually does have SLIGHTLY lower void resist.

The overflows are pretty funny considering what level all the strengthened bosses are. Although, huh... so the corridor only advances by about 2200 levels each loop, static. That makes the final strengthened boss' level even more absurd. You'd need to loop at least 4 additional times, at which point overgrinding could maybe get you within reach.

If corridor floors were made vastly smaller after 640f this could maybe be doable, but, yeah.  :V

It seems corridor boss info scales in your bestiary to your current floor level. Based on this, I can tell the 250F boss probably overflows his HP on first loop, which is probably the first overflow (unless one of the abyssal touhous has more hp than I anticipate)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Phen on August 11, 2018, 04:05:23 PM
I assume the unknown value near the affinities is void resistance. Interesting that its poison resistance is at that level. Considering its low health compared to other bosses at the same level, I wonder if poison could be viable against it.
Is there a convenient list of who has what shared skills? Like who has sheer force, piercing attack, elemental boost or negation skills, racial skills, instant attack, extra attack, etc.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 11, 2018, 04:20:59 PM
Not really, although off the top of my head based on the wiki...

Sheer Force:
Marisa, Kogasa, Utsuho, Mokou, Patchouli (affinity only), Reisen (status only)

Piercing Attack:
Rumia (++ in awakening), Sakuya, Remilia, Shou

90%+ Def/Mnd Ignore:
Rumia, Kaguya, Utsuho, Iku, Shikieiki, honorable mention for Monk's Iron Mountain Charge, Flandre, and Maribel vs. Buffed Enemies

Instant Attack:
Momiji, Chen, Mystia

Extra Attack:
Orin (++ awakening), Nazrin, Sakuya, Yuuka

Elemental Boost:
Marisa (MYS), Nitori (CLD), Parsee (DRK), Mokou&Utsuho (FIR), Yuugi (PHY), Sanae (SPI), Suwako (NTR), Satori&Akyuu (Weakness)

Elemental Reduction:
Reimu (SPI), Rumia (DRK), Cirno (CLD), Kaguya (FIR), Aya (WND), Reisen (MYS), Tenshi (PHY), Shikieki (All, +backrow)

Racial Boost:
Reimu&Sanae (Youkai, ++ awakening), Rinnosuke (Other), Momiji (Flying), Rumia (Human), Youmu&Yuyuko (Ghost), Minoriko (Plant), Nitori (Aquatic), Wriggle (Insect), Kasen (Beast), Nazrin (Divine), Alice (Inorganic)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 11, 2018, 05:18:41 PM
Well darn, 550f Corridor boss has such high DEF that even with Super Drill and a -50% DEF debuff, Tenshi can't damage it with Sword of Hisou, based on damage calculations I ran. Sword of Hisou has a pretty low ATK multiplier so that makes sense, but it's still disappointing.

Well, Iku can still annihilate it with ease, I just wanted to do it with Tenshi. Knowing its EVA also helps. I'm not 100% on how EVA works, but I think it's basically something like the enemy's EVA - (ACC - 100), that is to say, if a character's base ACC is 100, and the enemy has 8 EVA, it has an 8% chance of dodging, but if you have ACC Boost (which seems to be 10 or 20 ACC), then the enemy has no chance of dodging. An enemy with 100 EVA would require 200 ACC to always hit it, if I am correct about this. Looks like Momiji might have another chance to shine for ACC support.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 11, 2018, 05:43:15 PM
So, while making some research of IC depths, I see that SPD overflows too and at very weird values, seemingly for no reason at all.

Example: Reimu's Shadow Abyss Lv. 9,096 (fought on 2570F). I don't know what causes stats overflow, because Reimu should have only 1.5 mil SPD according to crude interpolation - which is MUCH less than SPD of some of the Enhanced final bosses. Her other stats overflow way before that, her HP, DEF and MND overflow on start of 3rd cycle already (1290F, 4,680 Lv). She should have around 21 mil DEF (less than
Liquid Metal Boss
on 550F), but for some reason it overflows into negative.

I hope 3peso is already done with Etrian Odyssey X to fix this overflow :) And it would be great if someone can send him this data (with examples), I think it will help to get to the root of the issue.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 11, 2018, 05:48:41 PM
Well darn, 550f Corridor boss has such high DEF that even with Super Drill and a -50% DEF debuff, Tenshi can't damage it with Sword of Hisou, based on damage calculations I ran. Sword of Hisou has a pretty low ATK multiplier so that makes sense, but it's still disappointing.
You'd sooner want to use World Creation Press, yeah. But if you really wanted to use Tenshi you'd go for Monk's Iron Mountain Charge, the go-to for any physical character that wants to nearly ignore defense.

I mostly blitzed it down using Rumia's Moonlight Ray (which also landed poison occasionally) and Iku's normal attack. Swapping on Frozen Eyes for your main equip isn't a big deal and that plus ACC boost mostly covers things- I actually didn't use Frozen Eyes and their attacks still landed enough of the time, although I would have swapped if I'd thought about it.

As for overflow stats, it just depends how many bits he assigned for enemy stat values, or however that works, exactly. He already knows exactly why/when HP overflows, for example, having tweeted about that and 64-bit integers. Of course, telling him doesn't hurt (and leaves room to send some suggestions like shrinking post-640f corridor floors to facilitate actually playing post-endgame)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Arcvasti on August 11, 2018, 05:54:52 PM
Iku also has 90%+ DEF/MND ignore if the enemy is debuffed

More semi-random list stuff:

Death Ignore: Kasen, Mokou[++], Meiling, Rinnosuke[with awakening], Futo, Akyuu[++]

Ailment Resist: Hina[DBF], Yuyuko[DTH], Iku[PAR], Chen[HVY], Mystia[SIL], Orin[TRR], Wriggle[PSN]

Ailments on Attacks: Sakuya[PAR], Remilia/Flandre/Kasen[SHK], Eirin[PSN], Shikieiki/Kasen[SIL], Mamizou[HVY], Komachi[DTH], Kogasa[TRR], Rinnosuke[DBF, awakening]

Passive Buffs: Meiling[DEF], Keine[MND], Flandre[ATK, ++ with awakening], Minoriko[MAG, ++ with awakening], Aya[SPD]

Passive Debuffs: Rinnosuke[ATK, MAG], Cirno[SPD], Reisen[MND], Yukari&Maribel[DEF]

AoE Heals: Reimu, Rumia, Maribel[Weak], Rinnosuke[%heal, with awakening], Yuuka[% heal], Tokiko[%heal]
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 11, 2018, 06:00:49 PM
Unless they're enhancing existing ailments (e.g. komachi/kogasa), the ailment passives mostly suck eggs, unfortunately. They almost never land, even with Sakuya having Extra Attack and equipping the PAR item. I wonder if Reimu's strengthened version actually works now though? It was bugged before.

Maribel's heal becomes strong eventually, for full-magic-build Maribel. (it's pretty weak otherwise) I've been loving her from the second I gave her my first awakening, MVP random clearer and super solid on bosses.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 11, 2018, 06:33:57 PM
You'd sooner want to use World Creation Press, yeah. But if you really wanted to use Tenshi you'd go for Monk's Iron Mountain Charge, the go-to for any physical character that wants to nearly ignore defense.

I had wanted to use Sword of Hisou to ignore the EVA, since otherwise I'm just better off using Iku's Start of Heavenly Demise, which should be a 2-shot if my damage calculations are correct (this is using Frozen Eyes + Massive Iron Crown of Chaos for +116 ACC). Realistically I suppose Tenshi never could have done the level of damage Iku could have, she's just way too strong on high defense bosses. I had figured that maybe 550f Corridor boss might've had lower defenses compared to 450f Corridor boss since it has such high affinities and EVA, but nope.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Arcvasti on August 11, 2018, 06:39:27 PM
Sakuya's PAR effect is at least useful for randoms and Eirin's PSN effect is pretty nice for the Great "C" fight, especially since her debuffs are also quite useful there.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 11, 2018, 06:42:36 PM
Would iku with ninja subclass (permanent 4% speed debuff on enemy i believe?) always have 90% defense ignore?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 11, 2018, 06:46:53 PM
Well, Iku can still annihilate it with ease, I just wanted to do it with Tenshi. Knowing its EVA also helps. I'm not 100% on how EVA works, but I think it's basically something like the enemy's EVA - (ACC - 100), that is to say, if a character's base ACC is 100, and the enemy has 8 EVA, it has an 8% chance of dodging, but if you have ACC Boost (which seems to be 10 or 20 ACC), then the enemy has no chance of dodging. An enemy with 100 EVA would require 200 ACC to always hit it, if I am correct about this. Looks like Momiji might have another chance to shine for ACC support.
It all comes down to ACC calculations, which are hidden from us. For some reason my Rinnie (Strategist, all skills learned) has 172 ACC (can only see it with memory viewer program) without any gear. Probably it has to do with Subclass passive buff (Strategist Mastery) together with ACC High Boost Lv. 5 Skill. Some other Subclasses also provide ACC buffs, which might be very significant.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 11, 2018, 07:05:16 PM
Would iku with ninja subclass (permanent 4% speed debuff on enemy i believe?) always have 90% defense ignore?

Iku's basic attack command would, yeah. It ignores 80% defense, and attacks in general calculate using half of an enemy's defenses, so that's 90% right there. Ninja brings it down to 91.25%, so it isn't that useful.

It all comes down to ACC calculations, which are hidden from us. For some reason my Rinnie (Strategist, all skills learned) has 172 ACC (can only see it with memory viewer program) without any gear. Probably it has to do with Subclass passive buff (Strategist Mastery) together with ACC High Boost Lv. 5 Skill. Some other Subclasses also provide ACC buffs, which might be very significant.

Huh, I wonder how much ACC Boost adds normally then, it might be way better than I thought.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 11, 2018, 07:08:01 PM
Huh, I wonder how much ACC Boost adds normally then, it might be way better than I thought.
Let me actually check those ACC boosts, i will write here later a bit with my findings.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 11, 2018, 07:17:30 PM
Sakuya's PAR effect is at least useful for randoms and Eirin's PSN effect is pretty nice for the Great "C" fight, especially since her debuffs are also quite useful there.
In my first play through I used Sakuya with the PAR main equip and it still almost never hit random enemies. It was sad :C Eirins Awakening poison seems to hit sometimes, at least.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 11, 2018, 07:20:34 PM
Huh, I wonder how much ACC Boost adds normally then, it might be way better than I thought.
So here are some hidden mechanics behind ACC.

Each character initially has 100 ACC.
Some Subclasses have bonuses to ACC:
1. Monk: +12.
2. Strategist: +12.
3. Diva: +20.
*WINNER* Title Subclass doesn't provide bonuses to ACC (I only checked the main passive).

Each Skill Level of ACC High Boost adds +12 to ACC.

All those bonuses are additive, which means, for example, if Diva has ACC High Boost Lv. 5, then total ACC will be 180.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 11, 2018, 07:22:14 PM
Hm, if ACC High Boost is +12 per level, then would regular ACC Boost be +6 per level or something?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 11, 2018, 07:35:22 PM
Hm, if ACC High Boost is +12 per level, then would regular ACC Boost be +6 per level or something?
Regular ACC Boost is +5 to ACC per Skill Level.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 11, 2018, 07:42:58 PM
Ah darn. I was thinking if it was +30, I could just use Massive Iron Crown of Chaos for 196 ACC on Iku and skip Frozen Eyes, but if it's 191, then that's an 18% chance (if ACC works the way I think it does) of missing once in two attacks, which is too high for my liking.

Ah well, thanks a bunch for checking! This information is super useful.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 11, 2018, 07:50:06 PM
Ah darn. I was thinking if it was +30, I could just use Massive Iron Crown of Chaos for 196 ACC on Iku and skip Frozen Eyes, but if it's 191, then that's an 18% chance (if ACC works the way I think it does) of missing once in two attacks, which is too high for my liking.

Ah well, thanks a bunch for checking! This information is super useful.
Can't you use a special tome to learn ACC High Boost?

Edit: Nvm me, I glitched out a bit :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 11, 2018, 08:41:08 PM
that WINNER subclass was the biggest powerup letdown i have ever experienced in this game  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 11, 2018, 11:00:59 PM
that WINNER subclass was the biggest powerup letdown i have ever experienced in this game  :V
I mean, it IS a pretty solid subclass! But it's not as godlike as you might think from looking at it's descriptions, I guess :V Great option for adding more elements onto a good attacker.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 12, 2018, 02:16:35 AM
Thread's moved way past this but I still feel inclined to chime in; IMO the game "ends" at the plus disk final boss at
floor 26
. Everything beyond is for-funsie bonus content for super players, there is absolutely NO shame in just stopping the game right then and there, or if you really care about the hanging subplot, then the bonus boss on b10 is all one needs to do to call it done.

That said, if you're going 100%, the game's over after the
640 IC boss and True Dragon God
are down, as the only thing left past those are (hilariously broken) rehashes with bigger numbers that aren't sane to pursue.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 12, 2018, 03:07:48 AM
That said, if you're going 100%, the game's over after the
640 IC boss and True Dragon God
are down, as the only thing left past those are (hilariously broken) rehashes with bigger numbers that aren't sane to pursue.
Absolutely; there's no more original content, just higher levels of the exact same thing, the game is done. Still, I'm going to complain if the game makes it actively a PITA to even attempt to play the scaling content.  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IRUN on August 12, 2018, 03:27:43 AM
Update: Renko and Maribel are carrying this run. Rinnosuke has been helpful with his heal, and Akyuu... will probably get better once subclasses open up. Oh, and remember the time when you had to actually wander around FOEs? https://imgur.com/mgAcido (https://imgur.com/mgAcido) I have a feeling this is going to happen a lot.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 12, 2018, 08:54:23 AM
That said, if you're going 100%, the game's over after the
640 IC boss and True Dragon God
are down, as the only thing left past those are (hilariously broken) rehashes with bigger numbers that aren't sane to pursue.
Well, I kind of wished that older games had such post-game modes as are now available in Diablo 3, Disgaea series and some other games. Sometimes you don't want for game to end, especially if it is a very good game. I wish more games had additional post-postgame content like this.
Absolutely; there's no more original content, just higher levels of the exact same thing, the game is done. Still, I'm going to complain if the game makes it actively a PITA to even attempt to play the scaling content.  :V
IC levels are actually quite small, so you can peek slightly at NE, NW, SW, SE and see the vortex to next level. I think you are simply burned out with IC after going through 600 floors so fast :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 12, 2018, 01:16:58 PM
Why does kaguya and patchy feel so weak compared to their LoT1 counterparts? expected total defense piercing magic to be really good in LoT2
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 12, 2018, 01:41:54 PM
IC levels are actually quite small, so you can peek slightly at NE, NW, SW, SE and see the vortex to next level. I think you are simply burned out with IC after going through 600 floors so fast :)
Do you mean after 640f they actually -are- smaller? Because all the floors I've been exploring, that is -not- the case :V I'd check but... that boss is hard.

I got to lv2500 and the bosses are still wayyyyy too tough, so, guess I better grind more. I could maybe beat the IC one if I was lucky, but... ouch.
Why does kaguya and patchy feel so weak compared to their LoT1 counterparts? expected total defense piercing magic to be really good in LoT2
Patchouli's only damage boost passive is SDM team and Grand Incantation, which is... not great. Incantation is strong, but hard to use with her fragility and speed, and gets outclassed by Akyuu's party-wide boost later anyway. Silent Selene's mind factor is average now, not even half-pierce or anything. She seems to be designed to wipe tons of randoms without running out of mp, even in awakening, but she's the slowest character in the game and it takes serious TP boosting too...

Kaguya also has no damage boosts except her team bonus (until awakening, which only averages at ~17% damage up... unfortunate). Hourai Bullet is stronger than Silent Selene, but Patchy has more Magic. Kaguya's only specialty is piercing defense. It's incredibly valuable in base game, which starts to drown in high-defense enemies later in, but in postgame she's only relevant against the monolith fights, for which you have stronger, more durable, and faster options. With her poor hp, meh damage, void weakness, and glacial delays, she's not that good. Better to use other defense-piercing characters with more general usefulness. Viable, if you run the other eientei members, but not good.

But hey, at least she significantly outdamages Shikieki at Spirit, whilst also covering two other elements! :V (4~5 other elements if you sub Archmage, which is probably a good idea) Shiki's global damage reduction from backrow is something, though. Err, depending on what "elemental" damage means. Everything but void? Or just FIR/WTR/WND/NTR?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 12, 2018, 01:56:36 PM
How to build Hina for maingame? Never used her my first playthrough but trying to make use of different people this time. Not sure what to do with Hina, or honestly how to utilise Kogasa either past early game since I think I might bring her along as a fairly permanent member this time too.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 12, 2018, 02:04:54 PM
Do you mean after 640f they actually -are- smaller? Because all the floors I've been exploring, that is -not- the case :V I'd check but... that boss is hard.
No, they are same in size, I mean that floors themselves are small in general, they are basically the size of 4 screens (quadrants).

And yeah, 640F boss looks unapproachable. But after all, he is one of the final post-game bosses.

Just imagine this boss on 2nd cycle :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 12, 2018, 02:14:45 PM
Yeah, and you often spawn deep in the corner or up against one of the walls, without knowing until you notice the paths all end at that line. It's not all that uncommon for me to have to explore almost the entire floor to find the exit. Your statement seems to assume you'll spawn dead center each time?

How to build Hina for maingame? Never used her my first playthrough but trying to make use of different people this time. Not sure what to do with Hina, or honestly how to utilise Kogasa either past early game since I think I might bring her along as a fairly permanent member this time too.
If you're okay with forsaking party-wide DEF/MND buffs while she's out, you can build her as a tank with her debuff reversal, and self-debuff skill (and probably her party debuff protection) and make her a tank that uses Biorhythm to apply massive accurate debuffs to the enemy team while regenerating with Hexer's Conversion. Or if you want to keep your buffs, just forgo her self-debuff passive and use her purely for biorhythm- she'll be less tanky, but it works, and you can subclass something else for more support.

She can work offensively, too, it's just more gimmicky to try and set up Pain Flows.

Kogasa's pretty simple. She has near-infinite MP, just slam her attacks out. It's best if you have allies who can try to inflict terror alongside her, like Kasen and/or Parsee. Parsee also boosts DRK for Kogasa's best attack! Once you get subclasses, Warrior is excellent to enhance Raindrops while giving access to two more elements and great passive skills... when you can afford it, at least :V Her priorities are Troubled Forgotten Item, then Ability to Surprise Humans/Sheer Force/Atk Boost in some order.


Speaking of Terror, I think Parsee's post-game proof when it comes to statuses. Even Grudge Returning has 14000 boosted to 21000 TRR, enough to absolutely survive to her next turn for her TRR nuke, and her other move inflicts 75k trr and 60k sil with her awakening. Like, goddamn. Those will last awhile even at the end.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 12, 2018, 02:33:28 PM
Ah thank you so much :)

Yeah I'm thinking of bringing Parsee through too, as I dropped her pretty early on my first playthrough and tried to bring her back for one shot shennanigans on Murakumo but other than that she went pretty much entirely unused.

I guess really, it's probably easier to list all the characters I used and just openly think about ones I want to try out this time and have it open to feedback from y'all.

Main characters used last time that I want to try and stray from: Nitori abuse, Kanako, Sakuya (though I guess she sucks now with the extra attack changes anyway), Kasen, TankMeiling (might try her as bulky attacker?? dunno yet). I had a bunch more people that were often cycled in and out but those were the main ones aside from Reimu (who I'm not planning on avoiding using) who stuck in my team through most of the game and into lategame/postgame.

So in terms of this new playthrough, yeah I'm feeling Kogasa and trying to use Hina as well as using a tank that isn't Meiling or Komachi (Maybe Momiji?). I'm worried about certain fights not being so readily doable without OP people in those situations like Nitori and Kasen (who does so fantastically on all the DRK weak bosses tbh). I think I might want to try and take Orin along too since she didn't get much use the first time round. Also might try Keine as a longer term buffer with someone else as backup later if necessary like Sanae. Not really sure who else I want to try, guess I'll take people as they come, but if anyone has any suggestions on characters that work well together that aren't from my not using again list then feel free to throw it at me.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 12, 2018, 03:11:41 PM
Momiji works for awhile. Mokou is also an excellent choice with regen/fighting spirit/resurrection and very high mp recovery for subclass support. Eventually, Yukari/Byakuren/Rinnosuke are really good tanks. Keine also stays good long-term now that she gets History Accumulation to help rise her def/mnd, and doesn't get blasted out of competition by the now-nerfed Byakuren. Kasen and Nitori are really good, sure, but I wouldn't worry about not being able to win without them.

Make sure to take along def/mnd piercing somewhere since the base game has a lot of problems with megatanky bosses. You can feel free to phase some out as you enter plus disk content later.

As for Reimu, I eventually phased her out as I had enough buffing power, and used Rumia and Eirin for healing needs. Still, Reimu is a very solid character.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 12, 2018, 03:56:58 PM
Yeah, and you often spawn deep in the corner or up against one of the walls, without knowing until you notice the paths all end at that line. It's not all that uncommon for me to have to explore almost the entire floor to find the exit. Your statement seems to assume you'll spawn dead center each time?
It comes to intuition after going through hundreds of floors. I also was burned out with IC because I wanted to finally remove that boulder from 30F and so did all those 600 floors in a couple of days.

There is a tip, which helped me, probably will be helpful to you. When you spawn in the darkness, if there are no signs ("!", "!!", etc.) in one of directions, 90% likely there is a wall. If signs are all around you, you are somewhere in middle. I also rushed the yellow sign if it was close enough to have better idea about surroundings.

Sometimes I had bad luck and was on a floor with very narrow passages going all the way around the vortex (which brings you to next floor). Bad RNG happens. Good RNG happens too - I had numerous occasions when vortex was right near where I spawn. But no floor took me more than a couple of minutes to go through.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 12, 2018, 04:17:13 PM
Mind, a floor every couple minutes is still a good 3 hours for 100 floors.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 12, 2018, 04:27:13 PM
Yeahhh. Corridor is only realistic for endless postgame plumbing if you can clear the floors -really- fast. I don't want to loop if it's gonna take 20 hours to do one loop, and 5 loops to beat the strengthened TLB; that's 100 freaking hours of just diving corridor, not even including the level grind! (In other words, -way- more than 100 hours)

100 hours is about what my save file was at when I hit 30F.

Endless corridor diving -does- sound kinda fun. But only if the floors are small and fast. There's still hope 3peso might tweak it to be that way, though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 12, 2018, 05:43:38 PM
30f
Murakumo
done with no character losses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtpN_N6lelY

I was a bit lucky, everything that could've been hazardous missed or wasn't used. Still, the strategy is considerably more optimized compared to the failed attempt I shared earlier, and that's the real reason this run was successful after a good two dozen or so failed attempts.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 12, 2018, 05:53:53 PM
Oooh, wonderful! I look forward to the no-death series continuing. Wow, 26 minutes... @.@;; I'll watch through whilst having lunch.

edit:It also occurs to me I may have struggled a bit because I have literally 5 billion gold sitting in my wallet
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Validon98 on August 12, 2018, 06:11:55 PM
Given some prior speaking about it, it might be high time enough to go back to the idea I had a long time ago of Team Terror, which is similar to that one Calamity Four. Kogasa, Parsee, Kasen, and Reisen, for lots of terror and debuffing. They're all the way back at 4F but they'll probably work through the main game fast enough if I actually try playing it, and not leaving it off for other things. :'D
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 12, 2018, 06:17:22 PM
Oooh, wonderful! I look forward to the no-death series continuing. Wow, 26 minutes... @.@;; I'll watch through whilst having lunch.

Yeaaah, might wanna set it to 2x speed or something. My videos prior to the 1.104 update were done with a computer that couldn't run the game at 60 FPS while recording, and the only one that comes close to length is Guardian of the Crystals, which would probably be ~20 minutes if it was running at 60 FPS and could be considerably more optimized if I did it again. Probably safe to say that it's the longest fight in the game so far.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Phen on August 12, 2018, 06:36:11 PM
I found you can easily tell where you are on a corridor floor if you open the map without moving it. All the floors are the same size and the map doesn't center on you automatically so the borders of the floors are always in the same spot on your screen. This way, you can tell if you are near a wall or corner and head the other direction. For awhile, I left my mouse cursor on one corner of the floor to help with this.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 12, 2018, 09:59:07 PM
It also occurs to me I may have struggled a bit because I have literally 5 billion gold sitting in my wallet
Yeahhh I just increased everyone's library level by literally at least two thirds, and I still have over a billion gold left. I probably could have beaten those fights at-level  :getdown: Ah well. I beat 640F before doing the library pump, now I guess it's TLB time.

edit: Okay. TLB.
The first phase's pattern is Breath->Red Form for awhile->Breath->Blue Form for awhile. Red is weak to NTR, Blue is weak to DRK, there are no turns in neutral form. They work the same as 28F dragon god. It has a LOT of HP, so you need to be able to tank out red form's 2-hit combo without constantly losing party members; this means you need 2/3 out of EXTREME damage reduction, Akyuu invincibility, and Eirin's overheal. Mokou can also resurrect through the whole thing if you can burst it down well enough.

Not sure how you actually get someone tanky enough to live through the two-hit combo, even Renko can't freaking do it (with overtweaking and a First Aid Kid instead of Tokugawa, MAYBE.) . Keep in mind affinity apparently maxes at 500. So, it's either Mokou, or Akyuu+Eirin. Or, I kid you not, First Aid Kit Patchouli with concentrate philosopher's stone to resist Physical. MAYBE.

Once you kill that, it spawns RED AND BLUE AT THE SAME TIME AS TWO FORMS. The red form on left has no status resists, so lock it down permanently. Rumia or Wand of Destruction is best at this, but big PAR in general should do the job, or maybe SHK. The right side has no debuff resists, so crush it's atk/mag/spd immediately. Weaknesses are the same, but this phase doesn't have a ton of HP. You can Spark it down if you need to, for example. Akyuu-boosted Murakumo Spark should do like 2/3rds of both their HP.

Final phase, I died, HAHAHAHAHA. It's really resistant to DRK/SPI/MYS and immune to status, but it's weak to the 4 main elements and all debuffs, so just crush it's stats I guess. It seems to repeatedly charge up and blast with mys/spi/drk breath. It seems the more it charges, the more breaths it casts... you definitely want some debuffs @.@ Sorry Patch, but since this is a 3-elemental attack I don't think you can resist it!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 12, 2018, 10:53:54 PM
Someone uploaded a video of 30f
Ryujin-sama
yesterday, the
final phase uses Yamata no Orochi's Soul Incinerating Hellfire, the MYS/SPI/DRK MT attack
. The player was in the 3800s in Lv so I didn't really get a good idea of what else it did and the overall difficulty of the fight. It didn't look too bad, outside of the spoiler details.

More or less, it's going to depend on if
the True phase does anything besides spam Soul Incinerating Hellfire. I don't feel comfortable in the odds of defeating it before it uses it once...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 12, 2018, 10:57:57 PM
3800 :V Well it definitely wouldn't be bad at a crazy level like that. I think you can complete it roughly on-level by adhering to the gimmicks (granted, it requires certain characters) but the real problem comes down to being able to blast down the last phase quickly enough. It has the same HP as the first phase, just more weaknesses, for an idea of durability; you are not going to defeat it before it uses it's combo multiple times.

A single cast is not a problem. Multiple casts, though, errr....
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 12, 2018, 11:14:54 PM
Looking at the stats Rinnie posted, I think I could take out
the True phase in 6 hits with Tenshi
, at least under the best possible circumstances. That's going to be scary. Akyuu makes things a lot easier, at least. 1-hit invincibility is as much of a cheat as Eirin's overheal.

Somewhat unrelated, I do appreciate how, while
Yamata no Orochi didn't get a new enhanced fight like Murakumo, Ryujin-sama still inherits its ultimate attack, and even has opposite weaknesses, with Yamata no Orochi's final phase being weak to MYS/SPI/DRK, while True Ryujin-sama resists those and is instead weak to the natural elements
. Pretty neat.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 12, 2018, 11:23:07 PM
I tried again, and now I don't know how I got past the blue phases the last time. I just got destroyed before I could try to debuff or set anything going @.@ Oomph. What a trip.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 13, 2018, 01:58:03 AM
Full Power Dragon God down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VhtFaDrKfw& , game complete, I guess?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 13, 2018, 04:07:35 AM
Ryujin-sama's 1st phase red phase does look painful, geez. Tenshi has the -30% PHY damage skill, so between her and Akyuu I'm not worried about that too much, but that looks to be one of the most unfair attacks in the game.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: jester147 on August 13, 2018, 06:45:11 AM
Hello

After long not touching the game again, finally able to completely clear the base. Time to try the Plus Disk.

Is the current English Patch have all scripts translated or is it just good old interface translation?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 13, 2018, 09:47:26 AM
Full Power Dragon God down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VhtFaDrKfw& , game complete, I guess?
It isn't Enhanced :)

Imo,
game is completed only when last non-scaling boss is defeated, in this case Enhanced True Dragon God :)
Hello

After long not touching the game again, finally able to completely clear the base. Time to try the Plus Disk.

Is the current English Patch have all scripts translated or is it just good old interface translation?
Most of scripts except for 2 last floors are currently translated.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 13, 2018, 02:18:03 PM
Imo,
game is completed only when last non-scaling boss is defeated, in this case Enhanced True Dragon God :)
Most of scripts except for 2 last floors are currently translated.
Considering you'd have to plumb corridor for well over 100 hours, and it'd be the exact same fight with higher numbers, with no new gear or floors or events or dialogue, I think it's safe to say... game is already done  :V

If 3peso makes it faster I might consider doing it.

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on August 13, 2018, 06:49:08 PM
Kind of off topic but... while waiting for a patch to fix TL2's overflow issues, I decided to give a new try to TL1 - no full team, no carried skill points or gear, just a clean new game. And, well...

The random encounters are sort of annoying, I'll admit. The SP consumption in the first few levels is insane, leaving you empty after only a few fights. So yeah, I definitely miss the SP system in TL2^^

But the boss fights... damn, they are incredibly good. Meiling and Cirno were admittedly kind of easy, but Chen was quite fun and close, and Youmu... it actually felt like a real boss fight. You know, the sort where you can't just throw your first line at the boss but where you have to constantly play around the enemy attacks and use your entire team to its fullest. I'll admit, I sorely miss this sort of fights in TL2.

And btw, here is a record of my Youmu fight - I dunno if I played it as well as I could, but I certainly had much more fun than with most TL2 bosses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zv9zGvmdZc
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 13, 2018, 08:04:44 PM
The boss fights in labyrinth 1 are mostly way better, yes. I guess when we talk about character "balance", we won't mean versus eachother so much as just the fights play out way more balanced than Labyrinth 2 often being a chaotic mess.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 13, 2018, 09:49:37 PM
Not seeing enemy health or affinity status is the one main thing that sucks about it, though. I don't think I'd be able to stand playing the game without my face buried in a wiki for information the second game lays bare. Challenge level in 2 also helps a lot, first game has no real answer to "am I ready for this yet?" and that makes it pretty easy to overlevel assuming you weren't ready yet, when the boss was just a glass canon type, or even worse, a marathon.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 14, 2018, 05:01:10 AM
Kogasa is actually proving to be really good in early game, with a little extra investment she's almost as tanky as Momiji for me, and she hits hard with her attacks too.

Halfway through 4F now, considering last time I chose Reisen/Kaguya early I think I might switch it up and obtain Eirin/Mokou first this time, though, how does Eirin play in the early/mid game? I've literally never used her before in either game, and I know her overheal is much nicer and much more abusable this game, but what about her tankiness/offensive capabilities?

Is it worth it taking Cirno far outside of doing a specific full synergy run? I might take Rumia along for most, if not all of the game so I could set them both up with team 9 if that makes any difference (maybe Mystia too but not sure about her yet).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Arcvasti on August 14, 2018, 06:36:32 AM
Eirin is generally fairly tanky and a decent offensive mage, especially since you want lots of MAG for overhealing anyways. Inflicting HVY is also really nice, especially since that's the one ailment Reisen can't inflict. Mercury Sea in particular is really good against random encounters once you get past the CLD stratum.

Kogasa is basically a win button against any boss vulnerable to TRR, yeah. She's also got the 4th highest DEF stat in the game, which is probably even better since she levels so fast. It's a shame that the "powerful DRK attacker" niche is so oversaturated...

Cirno is generally overshadowed by Hina for debuffing and Nitori for physical CLD damage. I used her for a challenge run with only EoSD/PCB characters and she was moderately useful, although that was partially due to her being the only debuffer of any kind on the team. Rumia is really good and I personally like Mystia. She can deal decent WND damage, has Instant Attack and can apply several useful ailments. Wriggle is ok too, although her starting affinities make her an iffy choice for a tank until you can fix them.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 14, 2018, 02:55:55 PM
With Kogasa's new MP recovery, she's probably a pretty decent tank option, too. As noted, she's got excellent def, and her mind and HP aren't too bad. She can spam the heck out of support subclass skills and has sheer force for ailments/debuffs. Of course, she's a bit more at home in the offense role.

Back to 30F; I've realized I'm at a disadvantage compared to many people at this point because Aya is a very common character (that I don't use), and Aya means
you get a large WND damage reduction on it's blue phases, the only element it attacks with.
Red phase is easily solved
with Akyuu+Mokou
and I can easily solve phase 2, so I think that's the only thing holding me back. Don't really feel like speccing her out to actually survive an onslaught though, so I'll just grind a bit more. Hah, but when it comes to the final phase...
I think you'd have to have Reimu, Rumia, AND Reisen out at once to reduce the attack's damage. Unless just have 1/3 qualifies for the passive damage reduction? I guess it might not work like affinities, where only the lowest applies.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 14, 2018, 03:34:29 PM
I haven't tested, but I believe that, since elemental damage boosting skills work on multi-element spell cards regardless of which affinity is being targeted, the same would apply for damage reducing skills. Though I think for
True Dragon God, you should aim to beat it before it performs the double breath.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 14, 2018, 04:28:23 PM
Winner's books include Nature, Sorcery, Crusade, Life, Death, and Chaos. At lv3400 his HP overflows into negative, but his HP bar still seems to function normally; I'm unsure what happens if you deplete it, as Akyuu shows his hp growing further negative with damage. He might actually die at his listed bestiary hp still, which displays normally. Since he's not a particularly hard boss, he only starts to seem threatening at, for example, 1.2x+ your party level. I've been listing his vulnerabilities. Debuff testing is not extensive at all.

Nature - Cold, Fire. Has a nuke.
Sorcery - No weaknesses? 80% mag buff and Space-Time Warp. Charge spell is Globe of Invulnerability.
Life - Dark, all status/debuffs. Rarely attacks.
Crusade - Mystic and debuffs. Resists Dark/Light. Deals moderate damage.
Death - Light. Has nukes.
Chaos - Fire, Wind, Nature, Cold. Resists Light/Dark/Mystic. Has a left-preference super DTH move, Doom Bow&Summon Chaos are single and all-target max hp reduction attacks.

Pretty sure he has forms other than Life vulnerable to Terror and Silence, which parties with Kogasa/Parsee/Mystia can consider. Mystia/Parsee's effects are more than long enough to ignore postgame's speed proration for an awhile, so they definitely still work, and can potentially enable final blow characters and Kogasa other than just their own nukes. Kogasa's probably stale by now, but Mystia's passives are excellent and Parsee should absolutely have competitive endgame damage.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 14, 2018, 07:09:58 PM
It was explained in the last thread (I think?) that Akyuu's HP display overflows sooner than actual HP does, so your Winner still has ordinary, functional HP, it's the skill that's bugging out. If a boss's HP truly overflows, then I'm pretty sure one hit will take it out no matter what, since it technically has very far below 0 HP and is therefore "dead," it just needs an attack to realize it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 14, 2018, 07:15:10 PM
In that case, Aya+Shikieiki or any [piercing attack character] with no stat investment whatsoever on either should instantly kill any of the strengthened bosses and unlock their item in the shop, right? Well, that'd certainly be a headstart on getting more of the TLB's equipment 0:3

Although it makes me wonder what number HP actually starts to overflow at.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on August 14, 2018, 07:39:20 PM
It was explained in the last thread (I think?) that Akyuu's HP display overflows sooner than actual HP does, so your Winner still has ordinary, functional HP, it's the skill that's bugging out. If a boss's HP truly overflows, then I'm pretty sure one hit will take it out no matter what, since it technically has very far below 0 HP and is therefore "dead," it just needs an attack to realize it.
It doesn't overflow sooner. It simply happens that in the world of overflow negative numbers are bigger than positive numbers. Which oftentimes leads to various funny situations. In ToL2 small negative numbers are 1-shots, but bigger negative numbers is different story.
In that case, Aya+Shikieiki or any [piercing attack character] with no stat investment whatsoever on either should instantly kill any of the strengthened bosses and unlock their item in the shop, right? Well, that'd certainly be a headstart on getting more of the TLB's equipment 0:3

Although it makes me wonder what number HP actually starts to overflow at.
You need to have over 1 mil SPD to get first turn :)

Also even if it will work with some bosses, won't you feel as if you cheated? :) Boss, who by overflow mistake has 100 mil HP, isn't the same who is supposed to have many billions of HP.

I am really curious, try enhanced big bad and
Yamato no Orochi on B10F
I wonder for how long you will be able to survive :D
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 14, 2018, 07:58:25 PM
You need to have over 1 mil SPD to get first turn :)
Nah, 'course you don't~ That's what Aya is for.

Besides, once the overflows are fixed, the goal would be to defeat the boss properly. This just allows one to start farming dust in the corridor immediately, instead of playing three thousand floors of corridor (or rather, NOT playing at all...) before you can even -start- collecting dust for the items.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 15, 2018, 09:24:05 AM
30f
Ryujin-sama
down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnN8CgzuDfo

As I expected, it was much less difficult than
Murakumo
, though
True phase was scarier than I anticipated thanks to it permanently buffing itself by 24% in every stat before each attack
. Though, I did do this with Iku at the same level as the boss instead of at 0.9x like I did for Murakumo. I thought that since this is the true final boss, if it had a challenge level, it would probably be the same as the boss' level, and not lower. It does seem to be balanced around this level, and not 200+ levels below it.

All that's left now is 640f Corridor boss.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Blue Wokou on August 16, 2018, 04:18:27 PM
So, uh, don't know if this has already been posted, I don't recall seeing it though. It seems like, if an extra attacker gets killed by a counter and (presumably) Extra Attack was supposed to trigger, the game crashes. At least, I'm guessing that's why the game crashed after Orin got killed by a counterattack.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 16, 2018, 05:06:47 PM
Sounds like something that needs to get reported to 3peso. Along with stuff like Sakuya's Private Square needing an exclusion, Shou's Wrath needing to not be cleared by shredder, and plz make 640f+ smaller.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on August 16, 2018, 05:08:11 PM
make 640f+ smaller.
I don't get it. Floors are bigger after Inf. Corridor 640f?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 16, 2018, 06:09:15 PM
They're the same size, but at that point if you keep playing you're "expected" (emphasis on quotes) to explore 2,000+ more floors of corridor to level up for strengthened bosses- which is the only remaining content, none of which is original. It only sounds remotely reasonable if the floors are significantly shrunken after the end, 640f.

For comparison, a quite generously low estimate of time to explore sufficient corridor to fight the strengthened final boss is more time than it takes to beat the normal TLB after starting a New Game on 1F, aka well over 100 hours.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 16, 2018, 07:45:41 PM
speaking of that 100 hour trip, I've just confirmed after a break that the "plus disk start" cutscene is still translated even though everything else to do with floor is having problems except boss rush. Now it's time to Yuyuko DTH cheese floor 21 for a while because I don't feel like doing "postgame" and would like to just jump straight to B1.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 19, 2018, 04:00:44 AM
So I've just switched to a new computer and transferred all my LoT2 files over but now my font is all messed up for the English patch. Anyone know which font I need to obtain to fix it again?

EDIT: Oof, I'm a goof nevermind. I just forgot to change to Japanese locale and it did the trick.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 20, 2018, 03:26:08 PM
Finally defeated king,on my way to complete 30F
i expected the holy version of touhou bosses to be random encounters like in LoT1,not another pack of bosses,AGAIN
thats gonna take a while,i barely managed to beat king with some RNG persistence

Also,not sure if its just me but MAG attackers feel on the weak side here compared to LoT1,i might be biased because my whole party is dedicated on setting up flandre
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 20, 2018, 04:52:30 PM
Finally defeated king,on my way to complete 30F
i expected the holy version of touhou bosses to be random encounters like in LoT1,not another pack of bosses,AGAIN
thats gonna take a while,i barely managed to beat king with some RNG persistence
They respawn when you leave the dungeon, so you definitely want to overlevel and then just blow through them. Beating all of them in a row is still a mild challenge due to mp/tp, when you're several hundred levels over.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on August 20, 2018, 06:36:18 PM
Also,not sure if its just me but MAG attackers feel on the weak side here compared to LoT1

Really? I mean, personally the only pure mage I used successfully throughout LoT1 is Yuyuko - most other mages were either badly outclassed (Mokou) or lost gas in the PD due to the mediocre multipliers of their spells (Alice, Patchy). On the other hand, LoT2 has such powerful nukes as Kanako, Miko (well, at least until you get into rly high levels), Utsuho, Yukari, etc.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on August 20, 2018, 07:55:51 PM
Really? I mean, personally the only pure mage I used successfully throughout LoT1 is Yuyuko - most other mages were either badly outclassed (Mokou) or lost gas in the PD due to the mediocre multipliers of their spells (Alice, Patchy). On the other hand, LoT2 has such powerful nukes as Kanako, Miko (well, at least until you get into rly high levels), Utsuho, Yukari, etc.

i used mostly marisa,kaguya and utsuho on LoT1,in LoT2 i got none,relying purely on flandre for damage

also i find funny aya,meiling and nitori are borderline broken in both games
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on August 20, 2018, 10:28:17 PM
also i find funny aya,meiling and nitori are borderline broken in both games

Aya is really good in both games, but ever since Diva was nerfed, I wouldn't say it's borderline broken in LoT2. Good support (mainly the 20000 ATB skill, as well as speed buffing), but her attack potential is not that great, and speed becomes nearly pointless much faster than in LoT1. Also, it's worth noting that there's a lot more gear in LoT2's main game (compared to LoT1's main game) which buffs both speed and an offensive stat, which makes speed buffing a bit less impactful.

Meiling is a good tank in LoT1, but nowhere near broken. Sure, she's durable, but that's really all she has going for her. Other than taking blows, she can heal herself (which, again, simply makes her more durable), deal filler damage and heal status ailments (which are actually less of an issue in LoT1 than LoT2, since there're less status ailments and status resistant gear with good stats is much more readily available than in LoT2). Even in the maingame, I generally kept Ran in the tank slot unless I really needed Meiling to survive something (like Fujiyama Volcano or Flowing Hellfire), because Ran can actually make use of her turns to support her team significantly. Later in the game, Keine and Yukari are even better at that.
As for Meiling in LoT2... I don't have much experience with her before postgame. What I noticed is that she deals respectable damage now, but most of the issues noted above still linger - especially when you consider that, in LoT2, you'd rather use something like Mokou if you REALLY need to survive something.

As for Nitori... yes, I am actually appalled by how 3peso managed to make Nitori the best nuke in both games. In LoT2, actually, the difference evens out eventually. Not so in LoT1, where Nitori is basically a must for any seriously competitive team - she's really that good lol.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 21, 2018, 01:50:42 AM
As for Meiling in LoT2... I don't have much experience with her before postgame. What I noticed is that she deals respectable damage now, but most of the issues noted above still linger - especially when you consider that, in LoT2, you'd rather use something like Mokou if you REALLY need to survive something.
In LoT2, she shines far more as a bulky attacker than a tank, actually; heck, her best passive explicitly only works when she's NOT in the tank slot. Mountain Breaker is just ridiculous- huge formula, super cheap, pierces half defense, good delay... and she gets enormous damage reduction and speed boosts, in addition to her healing abilities. She's pretty amazing without any SDM boost. And she's got one of the best elements on the side, SPI, with mega low delay and cost.

Originally her base attack was fairly low, but in one of the rebalance patches it was GREATLY raised, and thus she became a juggernaut.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 21, 2018, 02:43:30 AM
Yeah, Meiling may just be one of the best characters in the game period, if not straight up THE best. Durable, has support utility that makes no sacrifices for an offensive build, defense piercing, high power even without it, and Brilliant Light Gem positively MELTS anything weak to it. The best part about her; there's no "optimal gamephase" for her either. No "trash early, great late" tradeoffs there, Meiling rules out of the gate and stays consistently awesome pretty much forever.

She may not tank like the best, hit as hard as the big nukers, or heal as well as any dedicated healer, but the fact that she can do all of those well at the same time makes her too versatile to pass up IMO.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on August 22, 2018, 09:27:43 AM
In LoT2, she shines far more as a bulky attacker than a tank, actually; heck, her best passive explicitly only works when she's NOT in the tank slot. Mountain Breaker is just ridiculous- huge formula, super cheap, pierces half defense, good delay... and she gets enormous damage reduction and speed boosts, in addition to her healing abilities. She's pretty amazing without any SDM boost. And she's got one of the best elements on the side, SPI, with mega low delay and cost.

Originally her base attack was fairly low, but in one of the rebalance patches it was GREATLY raised, and thus she became a juggernaut.

I do agree that she's fairly durable - but, offensively, I don't think she's as good as you make her out to be. While Mountain Breaker is a powerful attack with a great damage formula, the list of "PHY attacks with sick damage formula" also includes stuff such as Nitori's Megawatt Gun, Yukari's Shikigami+, and Yuugi's Knockout in Three Steps - with the latter two being powerful enough to pierce even through all but the sturdiest walls. Nitori and Yuugi can also become quite durable, while Yukari benefits from having a "smaller" and arguably much more versatile family than Meiling's.

This is not to say, again, that Meiling isn't strong - I tried her along with Flandre in the late game, and she's good - but I don't see how she's broken in the same way, for example, Nitori is.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 22, 2018, 10:36:24 AM
Mountain breaker's piercing is still really insane though and it's easy to use because the character it belongs to has pretty much no drawbacks anyway. It's definitely not nuke tier damage but it's got the potential to hit fairly hard on bosses where most everyone is doing little to no damage, you can even pull some notable numbers in a tanky build. She's not a stellar attacker like Nitori or any other dedicated powerhouse but her versatility and extreme durability makes her surprising offense even better because it's another facet you can use her for and she does it well too.

Basically, yeah her offense is not the best, but for someone who can also be that tanky too, it's insane to have someone do both.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 22, 2018, 12:23:42 PM
In endgame, Meiling actually -isn't- mega crazy, due to speed scaling, everyone's base stats going way up, and other characters getting crazy strong awakenings and tons of mp for expensive nukes. This is accurate. She's still -very- solid, but you could also be using, say, Yukari with her awakened nuke or Youmu who has immense won't-die power and ~240% damage up.

But during before awakening, these assessments are pretty accurate. Yukari has problems with needing the family out, Yuugi and Nitori have problematic delays and immediately run out of MP, etc etc. Meiling just swaps in with one-third damage reduction and huge speed up with self-healing and super big base HP (before everyone gets big base hp), and refuses to go down whilst spamming her attacks. I actually considered subbing her Magician because she usually ran out of MP long before actually dying, and with her cheap costs, that 1 mp regen would actually be pretty good. She just refused to die.

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on August 24, 2018, 08:01:08 PM
I wonder if the stats provided by
***WINNER*** title
are better than the 10% damage boosts from Transcendent?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 24, 2018, 10:12:41 PM
At the end, you're going to have lots of gems/boosts/jewels so base stat boosts actually aren't super exciting anymore. Put it on someone who wants the expanded moveset.

I mean, transcendent already provides decent base stat boosts, and regalia+lv100 affinities makes Winner's affinity boost probably similar or less than the 10% damage reduction, so in terms of raw boost to their normal stuff... it's probably not superior.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 25, 2018, 12:28:03 AM
Beat Alice with my party average 2 levels under challenge level. Not a hard fight at all with Hina to mass debuff and then Mokou to spam her WND attack + Keine to buff her. The occasional Pain Flow was put in for some good damage as well as using Kogasa for TRR and then Parsee for JotKaL for extra severe damage after Mokou got sniped.

So far the Jungle stratum is mostly just a minor pain, but thankfully Mokou's Fujiyama Volcano can safely one shot pretty much every single enemy that I've encountered, it's a shame she only ever has the MP to cast it twice before needing to refill.

I've taken Reimu out of my party for the first time ever, and not having that extra 1MP refill chance after battles is making me a bit sad but I'll deal. Mystia is kind of sucky still but maybe that's just because she's got bad elements for the time you get her, once I hit Desert stratum things might improve for her. Rumia is awesome, she's not hugely tanky but with Hina as a debuff tank Rumia and the party don't actually get hit super hard when they're out so I can manage battles just fine with 1 or 2 heals at most and inbetween heals Rumia hits like an absolute truck. Momiji still is nice for being a raw stat tank but she's slowly becoming obsolete already in favour of Hina or even Keine and soon to be Mokou, heck I could even build Kogasa into a tank if I wanted to.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 25, 2018, 12:07:28 PM
Beat Alice with my party average 2 levels under challenge level. Not a hard fight at all with Hina to mass debuff and then Mokou to spam her WND attack + Keine to buff her. The occasional Pain Flow was put in for some good damage as well as using Kogasa for TRR and then Parsee for JotKaL for extra severe damage after Mokou got sniped.

So far the Jungle stratum is mostly just a minor pain, but thankfully Mokou's Fujiyama Volcano can safely one shot pretty much every single enemy that I've encountered, it's a shame she only ever has the MP to cast it twice before needing to refill.

I've taken Reimu out of my party for the first time ever, and not having that extra 1MP refill chance after battles is making me a bit sad but I'll deal. Mystia is kind of sucky still but maybe that's just because she's got bad elements for the time you get her, once I hit Desert stratum things might improve for her. Rumia is awesome, she's not hugely tanky but with Hina as a debuff tank Rumia and the party don't actually get hit super hard when they're out so I can manage battles just fine with 1 or 2 heals at most and inbetween heals Rumia hits like an absolute truck. Momiji still is nice for being a raw stat tank but she's slowly becoming obsolete already in favour of Hina or even Keine and soon to be Mokou, heck I could even build Kogasa into a tank if I wanted to.

Nazrin + Chen is an insane combo here (which you want anyway for the BP). With enough library and good equipment, Nazrin can spam her PHY and CLD spells on respectively-weak enemies, have Extra Steps trigger, swap Instant Attack Chen and have her sweep the rest with Phoenix Spread Wings. Worked very well for me.


Also, I'm through the maingame and currently going through enhanced shadow bosses, up to Azure Giant. The further I go, the more I realize how awful the base game postgame is. So unbalanced and unfun. I overleveled myself up to 140 before even fighting Murakumo just so I wouldn't have to make that investment later, and all the bosses are still kicking my ass left-handed (and I haven't even done the arguably worst ones yet). Don't wanna Diva Aya it again though. I beat these with Calamity Four (even if I don't remember how), I can do it with a normal party... somehow. But it might take a while and it won't be fun.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 25, 2018, 12:15:37 PM
Nazrin is workable especially when hitting weakness but I've found Chen to be pretty disappointing even for these floors with FIR weak enemies. I've ended up benching her because I just feel like I can get better mileage out of other people right now (though I may end up needing a little bit more BP from her so she might make another appearance very soon).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 25, 2018, 01:18:41 PM
Chen's base attack is abhorrently pitiful. It can be fixed later, but... not for most of the main game. She still kind of works for awhile because of Kimontonkou, but yeah, oof. Row Atk Enhance+Phoenix Spread Wings, awakening boosts, Ran buffing her EVA, and Yukari's powerful synergy move make her work in Plus Disk, but I can't see using her any sooner outside of "well I needed -someone- with Instant Attack".
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 25, 2018, 01:45:44 PM
Yeah, I gave her the Enhanced Row Attack from Warrior and it let Phoenix' Spread Wings slice through enemies like butter. Besides, you can pretty much throw her out again after 9F and no one else needs the subclass really badly. She worked fine for me, at least.

I've been finding myself using a lot of characters I don't normally use for floor trash with offensive builds - Iku, Sanae's SPI never miss move is especially great against those annoying Void Assassins on 18/19F, Eirin... very interesting to see. Iku's defense piercing basic attack was also very fun against the fire stratum enemies with high defenses.

Would it be a bad thing to leave the base game postgame stuff like Renko/Maribel, Enhanced Bosses etc. behind and entering B1F instead? Iirc you only need 46 characters to get there, but I really am getting tired of the shadow bosses to the point where I don't want to deal with them right now.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 25, 2018, 05:08:11 PM
Can always murder postgame bosses when your level is a bit better and you have silly plus disk gear. Although you'll have to recruit Renko/Mari before too long, iirc.

Iku's really potent against random fights. Well, for most of the game. In Plus Disk she's better served with SPD tweaking to buff your best attacker first, but in maingame her normal attack kicks major butt for almost no cost. And SPI is really useful, so Sanae works great.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Tangrelle on August 25, 2018, 09:14:14 PM
Out of interest for people who have done it with them, do any of the plus disk characters do really well in a new game + during the main game? I know they're all really skill point heavy - like REALLY skill point heavy but I figure it might be fun to slot some of them in for a run I'm going with. I've only ever really used Mamizou though (because Cold is a rad element, she's got really nice coverage even without her gimmick and her shock debuff skill is very convenient and cheap for skill points).

I know obviously Miko and Akyuu are like wet noodles but what of characters like Tokiko, Kokoro, Koishi and I guess Shou and Futo for maingame?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 25, 2018, 11:36:33 PM
Shou has 1mp recovery and eh offensive presence. Light of Dharma and Byakuren piggy-backing is more is a little more useful earlier in the game, I guess. Futo and Kokoro should be... average, but it'll take longer than other characters for their passives to get anywhere, and their raw stats/moves are, well, average.

Tokiko's passives would actually be -more- valuable in the base game, especially her "regen hp/mp when taking damage from under 200 affinity" one, which might make her interesting, but her heal will suck and her offensive stuff is whatever so you'll want a subclass whether she's attacking or supporting. Might actually be interesting, though.

Koishi has sorta meh stats and 1 mp recovery, but unlike Shou she can self-fix the MP recov, and she can get a lot of evasion, and evasion works better in maingame. So, maybe? And lastly, based on my experience with Satori... Mamizou is probably hard to keep alive past one hit, but she can take one, at least.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 26, 2018, 01:53:33 AM
Lmao so Hina can basically solo the 8F FOE as soon as you get there as long as you invest in some DTH preventing equipment. She's way too OP holy heck.

EDIT: Btw I must say that the Jungle Stratum is honestly such an awful part of the game to navigate. It's so boring and uninteresting and feels very much like a slogfest just to get through. Forget hating the temperature floors (which really aren't that bad), Jungle stratum takes the cake for worst stratum imo.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on August 26, 2018, 08:45:07 AM
Speaking of the temperature floors, that external link to pastebin.ca on the Wiki doesn't work anymore for me, so I made another guide for that stratum, though I need to go over it again to make sure everything is correct...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on August 26, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
Speaking of the temperature floors, that external link to pastebin.ca on the Wiki doesn't work anymore for me, so I made another guide for that stratum, though I need to go over it again to make sure everything is correct...

I have that guide saved offline, I can reupload it if necessary
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IRUN on August 26, 2018, 10:39:26 AM
I must say that the Jungle Stratum is honestly such an awful part of the game to navigate. It's so boring and uninteresting and feels very much like a slogfest
Don't forget the high encounter rate.

On 16F on my Sealing Club run. The synergy between Maribel and Renko sure feels good~
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on August 26, 2018, 11:47:34 AM
EDIT: Btw I must say that the Jungle Stratum is honestly such an awful part of the game to navigate. It's so boring and uninteresting and feels very much like a slogfest just to get through. Forget hating the temperature floors (which really aren't that bad), Jungle stratum takes the cake for worst stratum imo.

Totally agree. Although it's mostly just floor 7 and a bit of 8, 9 stops with the "random dead ends absolutely everywhere" gimmick and is a bit more uniform.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on August 26, 2018, 04:54:53 PM
Personally, I found the Fire floors much more annoying to navigate, given the amount of backtracking required to clear it all. At least, the Jungle floor is somewhat "normal", just a tad damn large. Also, iirc the Jungle floor doesn't have overly annoying enemies - like, say, the purple oozes in 14F and 15F. Though my least liked floors of all must be the "blind tunnelvision" ones from the PD :-)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 27, 2018, 01:37:48 PM
Holy crap, Suika/Kasen/Yuugi absolutely mauls me. I explored the rest of the floor but geez. I think I might be very, very behind in library levels considering they're not up to my current party's level. And it's not like that 3 million is gonna spend itself... but with the new levels I think I'll try Azure Giant again and see if I can get Mari and Renko before diving back down.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on August 27, 2018, 02:28:56 PM
I've managed to get all of the enhanced bosses and almost cleared the enhanced boss rush on first try (I have yet to try again).

I wanted see if I could recruit Maribel and Renko, but I cannot seem to reach the Shredding Amnesieri. I know where it is, I just can't seem to get there (I'm sure I missed it during the maingame).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 27, 2018, 03:04:52 PM
I think I might be very, very behind in library levels considering they're not up to my current party's level.
Err... yes, that is extremely behind. XD

Although they do hit extremely hard, regardless. I had to speedkill one or two down to make it manageable. The shadow fights in general seem to be short, intense bouts; few of them have all that much hp, but they hit hard.

And yeah, Shredding Amnesieri shouldn't be a problem to reach, from what I remember o.o I thought you just kinda walk up and there it is.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 27, 2018, 04:07:41 PM
Err... yes, that is extremely behind. XD

I was wondering why I had so much money. Lmao. Now I'm high enough to literally burst down the Magatama of Darkness with Iku/Aya/Flandre/Yukari before it even gets to use a damage move. Oops.

Only have the mirror left. Then we'll see how the rest after that goes.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on August 27, 2018, 06:51:18 PM
And yeah, Shredding Amnesieri shouldn't be a problem to reach, from what I remember o.o I thought you just kinda walk up and there it is.

Turns out I really did miss the entire area during maingame, but I managed to get there (somehow).

Mari and Renko, here I come!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 27, 2018, 08:20:35 PM
wtf

I tried doing Culex legit this time (lol Diva Aya the last time around... and I don't remember if I fought him with Calamity Four or not. Probably have had to if I did maingame TLB.) and uh... lol. I can't even do anything against him. How the hell are you supposed to weather all that? Buffs are worthless in the long run because of shredder, debuffs are worthless because of Dark Star. What the hell?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: zeroxtime62 on August 27, 2018, 10:33:38 PM
wtf

I tried doing Culex legit this time (lol Diva Aya the last time around... and I don't remember if I fought him with Calamity Four or not. Probably have had to if I did maingame TLB.) and uh... lol. I can't even do anything against him. How the hell are you supposed to weather all that? Buffs are worthless in the long run because of shredder, debuffs are worthless because of Dark Star. What the hell?

Kill the wind crystal first because it can cause the most issues.

You want to leave one crystal alive and I would recommend either the fire crystal or earth crystal. If you have extremely good dps you can leave the earth crystal alive as you can paralyze it and it won't do much other than occasionally heal everything for quite a lot of health but if you aren't able to beat the guardian quickly enough due to the healing, I would suggest just leaving the fire crystal instead .It mainly uses a single target attack that seems to always hit the left slot and while it hits quite hard, you can stack enough defense and fire resistance to render it to a manageable state.

Buffs are still helpful regardless of shredder though it can get annoying if it uses it often.

Debuffs are also still helpful because the guardian only uses dark star if it has a total of -75% debuffs I think. I think the regeneration it has also counts as a turn so even if you happen to hit the debuff threshold, you may still not get hit by dark star because of the added turn reducing the inflicted debuffs.

I would also suggest to consider watching videos of the guardian of the crystals as they can provide you with a better idea of what characters you may want in your team composition or how you want to handle the fight.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 27, 2018, 10:47:35 PM
wtf

I tried doing Culex legit this time (lol Diva Aya the last time around... and I don't remember if I fought him with Calamity Four or not. Probably have had to if I did maingame TLB.) and uh... lol. I can't even do anything against him. How the hell are you supposed to weather all that? Buffs are worthless in the long run because of shredder, debuffs are worthless because of Dark Star. What the hell?

What kind of setup are you using for it? I did it without Diva Aya, so I can help out probably. Since the Wind Crystal can buff with Calming Scent (worst case scenario, Guardian will use Dark Star on its first action because of Wind Crystal's buffs), that should be the #1 target. It might be difficult to defeat it before it can act, but it's susceptible to DTH (66 resistance) and has the lowest HP and defenses of the Crystals. NTR is both the weakness of the Wind Crystal and the Guardian (along with CLD), so it's important to have a good NTR attacker for this. Water Crystal has 0 SHK resistance and Earth Crystal has 0 PAR resistance, so you can disable one or both of them. At best, you only have to deal with the Fire Crystal and the Guardian for defense. Guardian uses MYS and DRK attacks while the Fire Crystal mainly uses DEF targeting FIR attacks. Grand Master Breaker Title is one of the best pieces of defensive equipment at this point in the game, so having tanks with as much of that as you can afford would be good.

For defeating the other Crystals, the Water Crystal has high defenses but is weak to DEF/MND debuffs (weak to FIR/MYS), Earth Crystal has low DEF and is weak to WND/DRK, and the Fire Crystal has low MND and is weak to CLD/SPI. The Guardian goes berserk if it's the last enemy standing, so it should be defeated second to last. What I had done was eliminate the enemies in the order of Wind -> Water -> Earth -> Guardian -> Fire, but whatever you find to be most annoying should take priority. Probably, Fire or Earth should be last. If your buffs are removed with Shredder, you don't really have any choice but to reapply them again. As for debuffs, you can set one stat to -50% on the Guardian without it using Dark Star (it's used at 150% combined buffs or -75% combined debuffs) if that helps.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Arcvasti on August 28, 2018, 12:26:21 AM
Guardian of the Crystals' biggest weakness is that there's a window in between him summoning the crystals and them getting an action. You want to deal as much damage as possible during that window, probably using Aya, Iku and maybe even Yukari. Ideally you'll have wind crystal dead and fire and water crystals heavily injured by the time they get a turn. Wind crystal is the most dangerous because calming scent, with fire a close second because of raw damage. The Guardian goes berserk if all the crystals die, so you want to leave earth or water alive while you take him out. Earth/Water can be PAR/SHK locked into harmlessness, but they can be nasty if they do get a turn because of healing/shredder.

Guardian is probably straight-up the hardest fight in the game. I haven't made it all the way through plus disk postgame yet, but I really suspect that that remains true to the very end.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 28, 2018, 12:46:26 AM
I'd put 30f's
Murakumo
as the hardest boss in the game, makes the Guardian look easy in comparison. 640f Corridor boss can also be really brutal if you're unlucky, as it's a purely random fight. I don't think it's much of an exaggeration to say that it's unwinnable in some circumstances, at least without being overleveled.

The Guardian of the Amazing Crystals is still one of the hardest bosses in the game though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 28, 2018, 01:56:03 AM
If you don't care about being challenge level you can overlevel and pump up Nitori super hard to the point where she can pretty much 3 or 4-shot the entire fight with Extending Arm lmao. That's how I did it, and the overlevelling wasn't tooooo insane, nothing I wasn't already doing just to survive in the extra floors. Just make sure you've got great buffers and a Herbalist for Herb of Awakening for the extra damage boost.

Would have zero clue how to challenge level the Guardian though, I think it's the most aggravating fight in the maingame personally. An awful end to a frustrating postgame.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 28, 2018, 07:56:17 AM
If you don't care about being challenge level you can overlevel and pump up Nitori super hard to the point where she can pretty much 3 or 4-shot the entire fight with Extending Arm lmao. That's how I did it, and the overlevelling wasn't tooooo insane, nothing I wasn't already doing just to survive in the extra floors. Just make sure you've got great buffers and a Herbalist for Herb of Awakening for the extra damage boost.

Would have zero clue how to challenge level the Guardian though, I think it's the most aggravating fight in the maingame personally. An awful end to a frustrating postgame.

Yeah I don't care about challenge level at all, I overleveled myself for maingame post just because of how horrid it is.

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/286870860139200532/483906400381173770/gcNIcXZ6M9a7QAAAABJRU5ErkJggg.png)

This was my party last time I tried it (originally had Reisen that slot instead of Hina, hence why it looks weird with Hina and Renko next to one another). I'm considering regearing to try and just tank Dark Stars to keep the enemies debuffed (since they can't remove those outside of Guardian) to see if I can at least tank them somehow that way, I'm aware of DTHing the Wind crystal, hence why Yuyuko is in there.

I'll give it another shot right now and see what I can get out of my attempts to further adapt.

EDIT:
>saigyouji flawless nirvana misses the wind crystal
>second attempt right after doesn't DTH

s... same??
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 28, 2018, 08:10:13 AM
Extending Arm does huge damage when mega boosted by buffs, full spell level and Herb and should fairly easily take out everything weak to it in a few hits with some overinvesting. I don't think I was far over lvl 180 when it worked so you should be able to do it now or soon. If you took all the money you have saved and dump it all into Nitori's ATK that should be plenty to get through it all :V Just try and have some decently invested nukers in the elements that the non NTR weak crystals are weak to so you can kill the stragglers in decent time. Thankfully Nitori can afford to use PVM enough times to get her up to high buffs which you could also aid her in doing so with Sanae or Iku.

I stuck my Nitori with the main equip that boosts base ATK heavily in exchange for severely reducing accuracy, so it does contain some element of RNG to depend on hitting it all, but to mitigate that I used Momiji with her ACC increasing skill as my Herbalist with Instant Attack to switch in and use HoA right as Nitori was ready to go, and she didn't miss very often because of that thankfully.

Also keep in mind that I did this all without debuffing, so if you use Hina to get in some debuffs on the opponents this might go down even smoother and faster.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 28, 2018, 10:14:10 AM
I might try just that at this point out of desperation. This is frustrating. I can take out the fire crystal fairly reliably by playing it slow and spamming Kanako, and the wind crystal obviously just gets InstaDTHd, but Aya loves to randomly get tagged which slows down switching extremely hard so I can't get my attackers in at all anymore and when Reimu dies I'm basically SoL when it comes to keeping people healthy. And then you have the whole luck aspect of whether the Guardian is gonna use some rando single target attack or just wipes you with Ancient Curse. Bleh.

EDIT:

I can take out the Fire Crystal pretty reliably by now, but by the time only Earth and Water are left I just can't keep up anymore because by then someone (Aya/Sanae/Reisen) is usually dead. Maybe I just gotta hope for good attacks at this point lol.

EDIT 2:
crie

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/287869593064570880/483967724087934976/unknown.png)

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/287869593064570880/483967759563358231/unknown.png)



EDIT 3:

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/443580291081044008/483998974307729411/unknown.png)

It's been... six hours...

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/443580291081044008/483999551749881867/unknown.png)

... and all it took was putting Kasen into my party (how did I not do this before?? I'm so stupid), making Suika magically beefier and giving her Iron Mountain Charge, and changing Reisen to a strategist. Then all I had to do was DTH the Wind Crystal, take out the Water Crystal before it shreddered (albeit a little luck-based, but hell, the premise worked) with Alice (who was built for bulk yet dealt about 200k a hit), then do the same with the Fire Crystal and Kanako (same story here), then slowly wittling down the Guardian with Kanako and Suika's Iron Mountain Charge while keeping the Earth Crystal stunlocked with Kasen. Renko continued to keep everyone buffed, Reimu for healing, Reisen for occasional debuffs (I actually accidentally debuffed the Guardian too hard and had to tank one Dark Star, everyone survived it tho), and Aya came in at the end to help the team rush the Guardian as the crystal and Guardian both were one hit from death and I had killed the crystal first.

... that's enough Labyrinth for today.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: jester147 on August 30, 2018, 03:15:40 PM
lol Culex. Arguably the hardest extra boss in the base game. Then you have to level up some more and beat the final boss ver2
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: alexff371 on August 30, 2018, 10:51:47 PM
Maybe someone can help, i need help with IF 640f boss.

How to deal with Akyu? She hits like a truck, and attacks heal her.
And Kokoro places debuffs on me, it's not translated but i think it's -99% ATK and MAG and i assume they are not wearing off with time. What to do with her?
And will Will of Gensokyo starts to attack me after i kill all touhou characters? Is he difficult to kill, should i prepare? I'm level 2500.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 31, 2018, 07:30:48 AM
No idea what to do with Abyss Akyuu besides weather her attacks and pummel her afterwards. When she does her Boost attacks she releases one of the ATK/MAG absorbing effects on her so you can damage her normally. If you don't defeat her the first time it goes down then she puts them up again, but after the 2nd time she does something different and doesn't put them back up. For Abyss Kokoro, her Mask effects apply permanent stat buff/debuff effects on characters, including herself. She uses them as her HP is lowered, the final one is I think a buff to her own stats and a debuff to your frontline's stats. The only way to deal with them is to switch characters out, as they're afflicted with the buffs and debuffs she puts on them for the rest of the fight. If you manage her HP and have a lot of damage output you can get out of it with buffs to your attacker's damaging stat, but there's still some severe debuff penalties. The Will of Gensokyo does nothing after all the Abyss bosses are defeated and goes down easily. It only summons 12 Abyss bosses, and they're randomly selected, so if all else fails you can just keep trying until you get favorable summons. Some of these bosses are insane in a group, Akyuu and Kokoro are pretty rough, but so are Tenshi, Mokou, and Eiki, among others.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on August 31, 2018, 08:24:58 AM
Yeah, that boss can definitely be sorta luckgarbage. Some of the bosses aren't a big deal and some have gimmicks that are miserable to deal with in a big group.

Opening with a Murakumo-boosted Master Spark with a fat Boost bonus is pretty good because you can wipe out the start of the fight and try to deal with things one-by-one for awhile.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: alexff371 on August 31, 2018, 08:28:06 PM
Thanks for help, managed to beat it, just needed some luck. I think i'm finally done with the game.
probably not going to bother with overleveled bosses on 29f. lol at lvl5600 King :]
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 31, 2018, 09:18:05 PM
Who in their right mind thought Black Universe was a great idea?

I've been sitting on Hina and Parsee for ages, and it was finally going fantastic, Parsee was almost down, and then she Black Universes Renko and Komachi ONE AFTER THE OTHER and I can't do anything about it and everything just spirals out of control. What a garbage move.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Spiffspoo on September 01, 2018, 02:38:21 AM
lol Culex. Arguably the hardest extra boss in the base game. Then you have to level up some more and beat the final boss ver2

I had way more trouble with all the enhanced bosses before.  Fucking Mirror and that other shit are the worst things by far even over leveled.  I destroyed Culex.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IRUN on September 01, 2018, 04:11:31 AM
Enhanced Mirror and Magatama were particularly irritating even among the post-main game bosses, except for Desire-Eating Demon.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Arcvasti on September 01, 2018, 05:51:55 AM
Enhanced Magatama isn't that bad. As long as it doesn't use Razor Wind in it's first two turns, you can just wreck it with repeated DRK attacks. Dropping your hp to 1 means nothing if you can kill it before it gets off an aoe attack. Given how many strong DRK attackers there are, that isn't hard. It might be trickier now that Gambler's nerfed, but the overall strategy should be the same. I'll see how it goes on my current game, but I suspect Reisen, Eirin and Kasen will pulverize it fairly quickly.

Enhanced Mirror is far easier. It's very vulnerable to SIL, which neuter's both it's damage and it's MND. Resisting almost everything is annoying, but Patchouli, Utsuho or Marisa can just tear through it with their affinity piercing skills. They also don't suffer from using their strong MYS attacks since it doesn't resist MYS more then any other element. Or you could just murder it with Mountain Breaker since it doesn't resist PHY. Nazrin's PHY attack and species bonus might work, but her stats are so awful that I doubt she'd do any damage at all.

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on September 01, 2018, 03:05:34 PM
How do I remove the rock in the Floor 10 Extra area? I've recruited Renko and Maribel, beat the enhanced boss rush and took care of The Second Sun and Desire-Eating Demon.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on September 01, 2018, 04:30:50 PM
How do I remove the rock in the Floor 10 Extra area? I've recruited Renko and Maribel, beat the enhanced boss rush and took care of The Second Sun and Desire-Eating Demon.
Go up the stairs next to the rocks, and toggle those green circles. They should have been orbs or something like most switches, but ah well. XD
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on September 01, 2018, 05:39:05 PM
Go up the stairs next to the rocks, and toggle those green circles. They should have been orbs or something like most switches, but ah well. XD

I did wonder why those were there, but I never would've thought those were switches, thanks xD
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on September 01, 2018, 11:28:21 PM
I could swear I saw someone with a LoT2 charagraph for LoT1. I wonder if that's available online? Sorry if this has been asked before, but I can't seem to find it using the search feature...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Arcvasti on September 02, 2018, 01:36:12 AM
I'm pretty sure one of the links in the first post leads to it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on September 02, 2018, 02:39:34 AM
I don't think so. Most of them are from before LoT2 was even released, though I might be wrong. I suppose I could check it out.

EDIT: I found it, from here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=16042.120): http://www.mediafire.com/file/5pnxoh24gv504rb/LoT2+CharaGraph+for+LoT1.rar

Also found this from here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16978.0.html): https://www.mediafire.com/file/t1v567p5sced1zl/Labyrinth+of+Touhou+Special+Disk+English+Patch+1.1.rar
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on September 03, 2018, 12:35:37 AM
Do you guys know if a patch to fix overflows has been promised/scheduled or if the game is considered over by 3peso?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on September 03, 2018, 12:53:30 AM
I don't think he considers it to be over, but he did say he wanted to play that new Etrian Odyssey game, so we'll probably have to wait until he beats that/gets some rest, first.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on September 03, 2018, 02:23:09 PM
Just yesterday he was tweeting about the new Etrian X game and what the medic's role has become when you can just passively heal with Hero and Princess, so yeah, he's enjoying his break still. XD (I'm concerned by what google translate was saying in the EOX second tweet... uh... I'm going to assume it's all horribly mistranslated @.@;;; )

But I doubt he made all that ridiculous scaling content just to have it all become completely unplayable before you even finish the first loop of the corridor, so, it's just ponderously slow 3peso as usual.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on September 09, 2018, 06:16:37 AM
I managed to beat
Ame no Murakumo on Floor 30
at a reasonable level: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GvvyFHmLiw

Using Murakumo's Blessing on Tenshi for that fight, since even Nitori can't deal enough damage to the right arm. LonelyGaruga, what do you think of that decision? And, is there anything I could improve, I wonder? I think my decisions while in-battle could use some work. I might be putting a lot at risk, at times.

On other news, I've also been replaying the first game, lately, and I beat Youmu, with very minimal grinding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWOGQWJ1ECc
Again, definitely was a bit lucky and made some dumb decisions, like leaving Patchouli out for a long time, as well as not starting with Cirno's slow downs, but oh well. I managed to do it on my first try :D

So far, bosses don't seem to hit quite as hard as they do in 2. (Yes, I say that even though I got my Marisa KO'd there, lol)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on September 10, 2018, 04:34:49 AM
Huh, that was a pretty good run, went a lot faster than my own. You could probably have improved upon the consistency a bit, but it looked pretty solid. Maybe skip DEF/MND buffs since they barely do anything. It was unfortunate that Komachi got cursed with bad luck so early on, but that happens.

It'd have involved changes to your party composition, but the
Right Arm
has very high DEF but very low MND, which makes it more suitable to attack it with MND targeting/defense ignoring NTR/SPI attacks. Though Tenshi's World Creation Press still does massive damage with proper investment, so that was probably a nonissue. Tenshi was probably the best character you could have used in your party for that role, so I think you made the right decision to go that route, and it was very effective, whether or not it could have been improved upon. I dunno why Nitori was doing less damage with Murakumo Slash though, the NTR/SPI affinities should be the same, and I should think Nitori still has higher damage than Tenshi at this point. World Creation Press' 3 MP cost is a lot more compatible with Murakumo's Blessing though, since that 8 MP cost on Murakumo Slash really drains your party's MP resources rapidly. The damage output would go down in the later portions of the fight when characters get down to ~7 MP, and whatever advantages Nitori has over Tenshi wouldn't be worth that issue.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on September 10, 2018, 05:13:59 AM
It'd have involved changes to your party composition, but the
Right Arm
has very high DEF but very low MND, which makes it more suitable to attack it with MND targeting/defense ignoring NTR/SPI attacks.
Huh, I did not know/forgot about that. I think I do have Yuuka leveled up, so she'd be a good alternative for Murakumo's Blessing, though I still doubt she'd be as strong as Tenshi, since Tenshi also has the keystones. I'm going to try her out nonetheless.

Also, I have noticed the uselessness of DEF/MND a bit myself, actually, but haven't figured out why that is (and I'd like to find out). This, in turn, makes their equivalent buffs (and probably debuffs, for the most part) useless, too, which is pretty sad, for an element that I believe to be critically important in this game.

But yeah, if the NTR/SPI affinities are the same, I'm also baffled by Nitori's lack of damage output, considering her attack stat with Maintenance (?). I wonder if it was the lack of synergy skills and Overheat (I think it was called?), early on in the battle? Maybe you'll find out something I haven't, if I showed you.

Oh well, time to experiment.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on September 10, 2018, 06:20:14 AM
DEF/MND aren't doing a whole lot because enemy/boss ATK/MAG is so high that you can't really reduce it much using those stats. I wrote a bit about the game's damage calculations back when 1.103 was the latest version here: https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,21095.msg1369819.html#msg1369819. I had calculated the Serpent of Chaos' ATK/MAG incorrectly, as Strategist's damage reducing effect turned out to be nonfunctional, but the principles are the same, and the calculations for the numbers involved are still accurate. At that point, Rasetsu Fist was doing like 5% more damage than a Direct Attack, that's how little normal levels of DEF matter in the face of such overwhelmingly high ATK.

It seems 3peso is aware of this, since accumulating Awakening items for a given character gives them a passive damage reduction effect that caps at 25%, which helps significantly to survive enemy attacks as players progress through higher Corridor loops. This gets around the affinity cap and how VOI resistance is static, since otherwise damage reduction reaches a bit of a plateau once you cap affinity, and VOI attacks are increasingly more dangerous later in the game.

On the enemy side, DEF/MND debuffs do matter a lot less for the most part, but you still have enemies and bosses with overwhelmingly high DEF/MND where they do matter a lot. This is especially the case for the 450f and 550f Corridor bosses, and they help a lot against 30f
Murakumo's Arms
if you're targeting their strong defense.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: woghddla on September 27, 2018, 06:14:56 PM
Has anyone else used the Dragon God's Power class?

I've been using it on Aya and noticed that all the "when the user gets a turn" abilities haven't been going off...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on September 27, 2018, 06:26:58 PM
It was broken but it got patched and fixed. Are you playing on v1.105?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: woghddla on September 27, 2018, 06:32:52 PM
I've been playing on the latest translated version - I guess I need to update.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: woghddla on September 27, 2018, 06:42:32 PM
Yup, it totally works on 2.105
Guess I'm gonna have to switch back and forth between the jp and translated versions >_<
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on September 27, 2018, 07:46:02 PM
2.105 has a translation patch! https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qeCHUohX3mV-eSSCCUVeeIW3HpAREoyK
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IsGaming on October 04, 2018, 05:07:01 PM
I feel like Yuuka and Sakuya got a bit overkilled with the Extra Attack changes (Rin barely feels different), I'd like to see either Master Spark's MP cost reduced (by half perhaps) or make EA only use half MP for extra casts for subclass spells, because as is, it's terribly MP-inefficient, same deal for Sakuya's Private Square.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on October 05, 2018, 04:59:43 PM
I feel like Yuuka and Sakuya got a bit overkilled with the Extra Attack changes (Rin barely feels different), I'd like to see either Master Spark's MP cost reduced (by half perhaps) or make EA only use half MP for extra casts for subclass spells, because as is, it's terribly MP-inefficient, same deal for Sakuya's Private Square.

Yeah sadly that fix was largely overkill. Iirc the issue is that 3peso couldn't have Extra Attack apply only to personal spellcards (which was probably the basic design idea), and this made certain subclass combos overkill (like having Yuuka firing multiple Dragon Sighs^^)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on October 06, 2018, 04:07:12 PM
By the way, I'm still hoping that 3peso is going to publish a patch for the overflow issues eventually... did anybody check out his social feeds as of late?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on October 06, 2018, 08:46:50 PM
There do seem to be some recent (few days old) tweets acknowledging (???) the bugs, if I'm right, but I know no further than that. Sorry. Maybe someone who is more fluent in Japanese can translate?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on October 06, 2018, 11:11:54 PM
He says he'll fix the issues in the next patch. He's also considering implementing caps for level, stat level, and damage in order to help alleviate the overflow issues. If I understand it correctly, the highest he can allow damage to go is 999 trillion, and he'll probably set level to a 7 digit cap.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: zeroxtime62 on October 08, 2018, 04:06:34 AM
Does anyone happen to know where I could get the TPDP charagraph for lab 1? I didn't seem to notice it in the downloads that are in the OP.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on October 09, 2018, 06:11:57 AM
He says he'll fix the issues in the next patch. He's also considering implementing caps for level, stat level, and damage in order to help alleviate the overflow issues. If I understand it correctly, the highest he can allow damage to go is 999 trillion, and he'll probably set level to a 7 digit cap.
That's very generous caps. Even my super cheated character looks like Lv.0 in comparison to this.

Some funny maths. To get to level 9,999,999 you need to gain at least 273 levels per day. That's 11 levels per hour. You need 100 years of non-stop gameplay (no break for sleep or anything) to get to level cap at such speed.

So it is safe to say that level cap is practically unreachable :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IsGaming on October 15, 2018, 06:03:14 PM
Yeah sadly that fix was largely overkill. Iirc the issue is that 3peso couldn't have Extra Attack apply only to personal spellcards (which was probably the basic design idea), and this made certain subclass combos overkill (like having Yuuka firing multiple Dragon Sighs^^)

Yeah, I can understand that since EA was a bit silly with some subclass spells, but I feel the extra mana to cast them should have been for subclass spells only, since this really cuts Yuuka and Sakuya's power considerably for horrendous MP usage.
Not that it affects their cheaper spells, but you can't use Private Square without drinking her MP in one go and Yuuka's MS is even worse since it's not even a default spell and costs much more.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Arcvasti on October 15, 2018, 06:05:05 PM
That's very generous caps. Even my super cheated character looks like Lv.0 in comparison to this.

Some funny maths. To get to level 9,999,999 you need to gain at least 273 levels per day. That's 11 levels per hour. You need 100 years of non-stop gameplay (no break for sleep or anything) to get to level cap at such speed.

So it is safe to say that level cap is practically unreachable :)

The level cap might be for enemies instead of/as well as players.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on October 15, 2018, 06:51:25 PM
You won't be able to kill a boss that's close to 2x your level (unless there's some seriously cheesy strats...) so enemy/player level cap is more or less the same thing. 1.2x~1.4x is about the limit on what can be reasonably handled, on non-trivial bosses.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on October 16, 2018, 02:48:44 AM
The level cap might be for enemies instead of/as well as players.

3peso didn't specify, but I think it's safe to assume the latter.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on October 20, 2018, 07:27:42 AM
3peso didn't specify, but I think it's safe to assume the latter.
I think it will be for both. Enemies and players share the same stat layout.

And level cap for enemies is also very generous, you won't meet enemies with Lv.9,999,999 until you go through a couple of millions of IC floors :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on October 21, 2018, 11:05:58 PM
So my bf recently started and wanted to know what's better, Chen with Ran or just Patchouli?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on October 22, 2018, 05:16:25 AM
So my bf recently started and wanted to know what's better, Chen with Ran or just Patchouli?

Patchouli is pretty terrible, whereas Chen and Ran can pull their weight. Though if you use those two, you might eventually want to employ Yukari as well, since a fully powered Shikigami + is one of the strongest attacks in the game
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on October 22, 2018, 05:17:48 AM
Speaking of, how would you build Chen, elminster?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on October 22, 2018, 03:03:59 PM
Speaking of, how would you build Chen, elminster?

Warrior with maxxed Atk packs a real punch, Phoenix Spread Wings has a surprisingly powerful formula. Other than that, Chen is quite straightforward^^
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Arcvasti on October 22, 2018, 03:14:29 PM
I've done both SDM and Yakumo Clan lineups and both can work fine, at least up until Plus Disk postgame. Chen kind of suffers from lowish ATK and poor defense piercing, whereas Patchouli has a lot of MAG and Princess Undine has decent defense piercing. Chen is definitely better from Plus Disk onwards, but she's nigh useless against the fights that most new players will struggle with[Tenshi, Mirror, Magatama]. Patchouli, in contrast, works pretty well for two out of three of those fights and her synergy team does well against the other one. Yukari is great, sure, but you also get her way after you get the rest of the SDM team, after the most difficult fights are over.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on October 22, 2018, 11:13:53 PM
Chen works once you can patch up her base Atk, but she's kind of terrible until then. Patchouli is OK-ish, but she's so frail and doesn't really get damage boosts off her passives other than SDM; Grand Incantation is hard with her glacial speed and frailty and later, using Boost buffs is better than incanting. Mind tanks aren't safe in the back like they were in LoT1. So, it's not like she -doesn't- work, but she doesn't really have much going for her.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on October 26, 2018, 08:25:57 AM
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/443580291081044008/505089040396058627/unknown.png)

whoops
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on October 26, 2018, 12:07:20 PM
Maribel is pure love^^
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on October 26, 2018, 03:20:41 PM
How are the Rocks on B10F and 27F removed?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on October 26, 2018, 04:20:48 PM
You need to explore everywhere you can in 27F to continue to progress. It sounds like you either missed a path, or you can already break some of the "control the magic on this floor" rocks and you haven't realized it yet.

You cannot reach the stairs to 28F until you finish B10F, and you cannot finish B10F until you explore the depths of 27F.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Nyxnyx on October 26, 2018, 05:23:25 PM
I think Rumia is one of the best early game character? I remember relying on her a lot for Tenshi and Magatama. Her and Kaguya were how I got past early game the very first playthrough before postgame.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on October 26, 2018, 06:30:24 PM
Rumia trashes 12F Tenshi really really hard. Rumia+Satori to double up on Dark Side of the Moon, Parsee to boost dark damage, and someone to buff magic, and you can take her out without literally a single attack. It's pretty silly. Then Moonlight Ray has solid power for usual fights and she's got a valuable MT heal. Her MND is really high so she's not too shabby on durability.

So she's a pretty solid jack of trades character. Her moveset is very basic, but they each serve a very effective purpose.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on October 27, 2018, 11:25:55 PM
When Eirin overheals more than Komachi's max HP: https://imgur.com/a/DZlhnjx (this is with Akyuu's Boost so without it it would heal about 11m). You could get even higher numbers (about 30m) if you used it on Meiling, since she gets 66% more effect from heals.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on October 28, 2018, 12:01:42 AM
Eirin is a top class character. Her damage is never terribly good even with the defense piercing (it's OK) but the overheal when subbed Healer is just incredible, from beginning to end. Apart from the obvious uses in not dying, it can also seriously help with boss nukes that are hard to get past at all without big shenanigans.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on October 31, 2018, 03:24:49 PM
Still no news about when the overflow-fixing patch should come out?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on November 01, 2018, 12:08:22 AM
Yeah, 3peso hasn't said anything about Labyrinth of Touhou 2 since the 4th.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on November 01, 2018, 08:52:45 AM
Managed to take down Shadow Eirin, Kaguya and Reisen a while ago, after one-shotting Kaguya with Nitori everybody but Toxicologist Renko were dead.
God bless Easygoing, letting me spam Galaxy Stop and Poisonous Incense lol

Now to find a way to actually deal damage to Grandgon

Edit: Took it down with Rumia.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 01, 2018, 12:04:11 PM
I just noticed that Koishi's Genetics of the Subconscious has 3 levels, even though the skill doesn't seem to get any benefit past level 1 (the counter doesn't seem to have a limit at level 1, and the evade boost is supposed to be only 10%*counter).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on November 01, 2018, 09:30:07 PM
I just noticed that Koishi's Genetics of the Subconscious has 3 levels, even though the skill doesn't seem to get any benefit past level 1 (the counter doesn't seem to have a limit at level 1, and the evade boost is supposed to be only 10%*counter).

Perhaps it was supposed to have a max counter level equal to your skill level? I dunno.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: jaxter0987 on November 02, 2018, 05:45:47 AM
Jeez, I completely forgot about Shrinemaiden's existence until today. Just got caught up with the past few threads I missed (mostly skimming through all the spoilerific posts though) and I'm glad to see that the game is practically complete, save for some bug fixes. Finally going to start the Plus Disk proper... after I finish grinding the gems I said I would forever ago. Not super excited to hit the point where the "nuke and swap strat" loses effectiveness and Komachi loses her niche as a tank but oh well. Maybe I'll actually be able to take fights slowly unlike what posts these past few threads have lead me to believe. Things aren't looking too hot for my lineup based on the consensus here.

Having started up the game again this time with a new laptop, I have the issue of spell animations being over too fast. It appears to be animating based on my monitors refresh rate and its far far too fast for my taste. Is there a way to "throttle" the game so to speak so things don't animate blisteringly fast?

Edit: Realized I could just change my monitors refresh rate, but is there another way to accomplish this? I don't want to have to switch back and forth every time I want to get a play session in.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 02, 2018, 02:06:11 PM
Maybe there's something you can toggle with a vsync setting?

About Gem grinding, the final floor(s) are a very fast way to get gems, so I really wouldn't worry about grinding for them pre-Plus. Getting to a high enough level for the final plus boss can very possibly get you enough gems to max literally everything on a party of 12, and you can use Infinite Gems to purchase possible missing bits if necessary. (And for gems you want before then, like atk/mag on key attackers, you can just purchase in Infinite Corridor as soon as you unlock it)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: nyttyn on November 02, 2018, 06:31:50 PM
Patchouli is just fine as a trash sweeper, but you absolutely need to have her out at the same time as Aya, or start her off as a monk for instant battle. She excels in that category, being able to instantly nuke entire groups with a huge MP pool, needing only some TP equipment.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on November 02, 2018, 08:32:22 PM
You need to explore everywhere you can in 27F to continue to progress. It sounds like you either missed a path, or you can already break some of the "control the magic on this floor" rocks and you haven't realized it yet.

You cannot reach the stairs to 28F until you finish B10F, and you cannot finish B10F until you explore the depths of 27F.


Forgot to fight In Laquetti... oops.

Then again, guess Shadow Bosses are all up next anyway from the looks of it.

mfw Satori uses Biorhythm when I have her on like 20% HP and Koishi heals her right back up again. why me.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 03, 2018, 03:56:28 AM
Then again, guess Shadow Bosses are all up next anyway from the looks of it.

mfw Satori uses Biorhythm when I have her on like 20% HP and Koishi heals her right back up again. why me.
Koishi
falls down like wet paper to things that can actually hit her, so I just killed her first. IIRC she's also weak to void, if you have Maribel for a double whammy liberated abilities. Her
Super Ego
deals obscene damage anyway so it's just easier to get her out first @.@
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on November 03, 2018, 10:45:57 AM
Koishi
falls down like wet paper to things that can actually hit her, so I just killed her first. IIRC she's also weak to void, if you have Maribel for a double whammy liberated abilities. Her
Super Ego
deals obscene damage anyway so it's just easier to get her out first @.@

My strategy for the entire Plus Disk has been Renko + Maribel anyway, they got the first two Awakenings and ever since then it's just been Concentrate into Liberated Abilities for millions of damage on everything ever and they both have way more Level Up Bonuses than their actual level right now. lmao

Kasen and Nitori also have been absolutely performing.
Finished up the Fallen Yamata no Orochi, now to find some way to get past that other dumb dragon. That wind attack is so silly.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on November 03, 2018, 11:57:20 AM
My strategy for the entire Plus Disk has been Renko + Maribel anyway, they got the first two Awakenings and ever since then it's just been Concentrate into Liberated Abilities for millions of damage on everything ever and they both have way more Level Up Bonuses than their actual level right now. lmao

Kasen and Nitori also have been absolutely performing.
Finished up the Fallen Yamata no Orochi, now to find some way to get past that other dumb dragon. That wind attack is so silly.

I fully agree on Renko + Maribel, there are so many bosses where you can basically solo the entire fight with the two of them. Maribel especially is awesome, I remember fighting the Shadow Team 9 and, once it was down to Maribel vs Shadow Wriggle, she just soloed the damn bug lady thx to Ability to See Boundaries - that skill is simply incredible on some fights^^
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on November 03, 2018, 03:36:25 PM
What are 7-Star-Remnants best spent on? I don't have a Machine God Lucifer or Tokugawa Statue yet so I was thinking of one of those, but I'm really not sure. Currently only on 42F at around ~500 party level, 28F in the tree.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on November 03, 2018, 06:19:52 PM
As far as I know, Machine God Lucifers aren't worth saving up for. They're not actually that awesome, and getting the dusts required for one requires a good 50-ish floor streak. Always go for Tokugawa statues instead.

...But even then, you can simply craft those and find them in chests, so in the end not even that's not really necessary. I usually just dump almost all my dusts into infinite gems to buy things from Akyuu, like duplicate awakenings, jewels, and tomes. If saving up for ANYTHING in IC, go either for a quartz charm (super good extremely late) or just the statue.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on November 03, 2018, 06:45:13 PM
Yeah, makes sense. I was considering it because I use the Maintenance party members a lot, but even then the statue would probably be better instead. What about the materials? Gems sound like a safe beat since they're cheap.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on November 03, 2018, 06:50:33 PM
Stat boost gems, you mean? Not really necessary to spend dusts on those since floor b11 and f28-30 monsters drop them, so by the time you're done actually grinding exp you will have enough gems to max out most of your party, buuut on the other hand buying them now means you get their benefits sooner. IMO it doesn't really matter, as long as you're not buying the crappy equipment that's already pretty much obsolete, but one of the other experts here may disagree.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 03, 2018, 07:22:02 PM
Yeah, makes sense. I was considering it because I use the Maintenance party members a lot, but even then the statue would probably be better instead. What about the materials? Gems sound like a safe beat since they're cheap.

IMO the materials should be bought only if you don't have enough of them to craft something (ie you already have all the other necessary materials), mainly because there's a decent chance you can get them from chests or as drops, so stocking up on them is not particularly necessary. Infinity Gems are always a good choice since Akyuu's store is a huge sink for them (just remember that you can only hold 200 of them at once).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on November 03, 2018, 08:18:45 PM
Got it! Also, sorry for all the annoying questions, but any Awakenings I should aim for early on that are just objectively super good? I have 3 items right now and Renko and Maribel already are Awakened.
Maybe something to get past 28f Ryujin-Sama with...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on November 03, 2018, 08:47:52 PM
Got it! Also, sorry for all the annoying questions, but any Awakenings I should aim for early on that are just objectively super good? I have 3 items right now and Renko and Maribel already are Awakened.
Maybe something to get past 28f Ryujin-Sama with...

It could help if you told us which party are you using... but assuming you're using her, Miko's awakening is quite damn strong, I always get it first (and then Maribel's)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Gigik on November 03, 2018, 09:16:01 PM
Oh hello people, I'm new here so I don't really know if I using the right button to write this. I love this game and I really liking the plus disk, currently I'm about to fight the underground Orochi.

I still haven't learned how to use every character, I have complete no Idea on how to use Maribel and I've awakened Remilia and Wriggle (yeah wriggle, I had no idea on who to awake after Remilia).  Could anyone tell me on what floor do I need the Rhododentron Seal, the one from the Holy Guardian from BF3? I've got for quite a while but I have no idea its use, and that is wierd, normally I find its use before getting it.

Also is it possible to makes suggestion about changes in the wiki? Because the strategy written for the In Laquetti boss (the seal creature from BF2) is exactly what NOT to do. In Laquetti only uses the Karmic attack if he is inflicted with something, and that some
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on November 03, 2018, 09:20:49 PM
It could help if you told us which party are you using... but assuming you're using her, Miko's awakening is quite damn strong, I always get it first (and then Maribel's)

Renko is my tank, I usually have Aya with me, Sanae/Eirin/Reimu support core, Maribel/Kasen/Nitori/Miko/Meiling as attackers, rest is whatever I need (trash clear, boosts, something specific for a boss fight)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on November 03, 2018, 10:00:02 PM
Renko is my tank, I usually have Aya with me, Sanae/Eirin/Reimu support core, Maribel/Kasen/Nitori/Miko/Meiling as attackers, rest is whatever I need (trash clear, boosts, something specific for a boss fight)

Then yes I'd definitely pick Miko for awakening. Supreme Divinely-Appointed Stateswoman makes Tradition of Just Rewards incredibly strong (I generally awaken Miko right before fighting Yamata no Orochi, since having a SPI + DRK attack which debuffs all stats makes that fight almost unfairly easy^^). Mega Asuka Heritage attack is a must if you're not using Futo. And Prince's Lecture makes Miko work even better alongside Renko + Maribel and Sanae.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 03, 2018, 10:00:25 PM
Renko is my tank, I usually have Aya with me, Sanae/Eirin/Reimu support core, Maribel/Kasen/Nitori/Miko/Meiling as attackers, rest is whatever I need (trash clear, boosts, something specific for a boss fight)
Sanae's awakening is really nice because of the MP recovery on Miracle of Fafrotskies, though its relevance depends on how often Sanae stays out, Super Youkai Buster is also pretty strong when it comes into play. Kasen's awakening is also pretty nice due to her new spell and the stat boost from Healty Mind and Body; Adversity+ gives a 40% damage bonus whenever Kasen is is afflicted with an ailment or debuff, giving Kasen excellent synergy with Hina/Iku. Miko's awakening is really good due to the increased effect from buffs, which works at half strength from the back.

When it comes to other characters, the most relevant ones are probably Mystia's and Eiki's, since they both get skills that work from the back  (Mystia debuffs enemies when any of your frontliners dodge and Eiki reduces all damage you receive by 10%). There's also Reisen, who's capability to reduce/pierce enemy resistances can make her really useful in certain fights. Finally, Akyuu's awakening gives her access to some useful passives and her damage boost spellcard, which automatically skyrockets her to one of the best support characters in the game.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on November 04, 2018, 04:22:16 PM
... So after 28F is really all that's left just a lot of grinding on 28F for 29F bosses or how are you supposed to bridge that massive level gap?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on November 04, 2018, 04:58:47 PM
After beating one of them (the lowest level one is pretty reasonable), you can get access to 30f, which has Metal Kedama on it. They give absurd amounts of EXP and money when defeated, which makes them the ideal way to grind for 29f.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 04, 2018, 05:17:14 PM
Have you explored b11f yet? The rock after the Hollow Yamata-na-Orochi lets you pass once you defeat the Dragon God. In b11f you can find an event that gives you great amounts of exp and money.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on November 04, 2018, 06:18:24 PM
Sweet, good to know. I'll get myself prepped for that one then. And I did open up B11F, but after running into encounters that healed themselves faster than I could killed them I went back out lmao.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 04, 2018, 06:58:42 PM
Sweet, good to know. I'll get myself prepped for that one then. And I did open up B11F, but after running into encounters that healed themselves faster than I could killed them I went back out lmao.
Yeah, the first time you get to b11f you're supposed to run from most encounters and just make it till the end.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 04, 2018, 09:59:57 PM
It's in the dialogue that the dragon god tells you to explore b11f first, but translation. It's literally like 100 levels worth of exp and similarly gigantic amount of cash. XD

Throw Chen in the party for cheap running and go wild.

As for 30f kedama grinds, you'll literally NEED Aya and either accurate instant death, or someone with piercing. (Piercing Attack passive or a 100% def/mnd ignore move) They have incredible def/mnd, speed, and evasion, but their hp is next to nothing and they're weak to instant death. The metal kedamas spawn frequently in two specific rooms on the map. ...I don't remember which at the moment though z.z

I went ahead and used Awakened Shou for my kedama killer since her boosts and treasure gun really speed things up and she's got Piercing Attack. She's not necessary, though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on November 04, 2018, 10:37:34 PM
The exact tile where the switch is at the end of the mazes is one of them. There's even a convenient shortcut right to it from the waypoint.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on November 05, 2018, 07:45:54 AM
I've explored all I can on 25F, do I head back to 23/24F?

I'm also on B7, but I can't progress further due to a rock requiring all party members.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: nyttyn on November 05, 2018, 03:33:53 PM
Does the current version of the TL patch work with the latest update? I know it' not fully transalted dialgoue wise, I just need to be able to see the spells etc cuz I'm a dumb dumb.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on November 05, 2018, 04:13:06 PM
Does the current version of the TL patch work with the latest update? I know it' not fully transalted dialgoue wise, I just need to be able to see the spells etc cuz I'm a dumb dumb.
Some spells/skills/items have untranslated descriptions/parameters but the names are all translated.

I've explored all I can on 25F, do I head back to 23/24F?

I'm also on B7, but I can't progress further due to a rock requiring all party members.

Did you defeat all the copy spirits yet? There's a straightforward path to a boss on 26F after you did so. If you haven't, you probably missed one - there's five in total. The 25F map is also on the english wiki if you wanna check for yourself.

... which reminds me that that thing hasn't been updated with the very late floors and paired with the untranslated dialogue it's left me a little bit of a headless chicken as of recent hence all my questions, lmao.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on November 05, 2018, 06:07:28 PM
Did you defeat all the copy spirits yet? There's a straightforward path to a boss on 26F after you did so. If you haven't, you probably missed one - there's five in total. The 25F map is also on the english wiki if you wanna check for yourself.

I had a feeling that there was some bosses. I messed up on pressing some buttons, thank you!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on November 05, 2018, 06:59:26 PM
On an unrelated note, you guys should give Kokoro another chance - now Worrisome Man of Qi actually hurts^^ Overall, I've been playing her alongside Yuugi and Nitori, and her damage output has been respectable even when compared to such monstrous attackers (also, Yuugi's Ruinous Superstrength makes Kokoro's main single-target attack even stronger)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: jaxter0987 on November 05, 2018, 07:22:12 PM
Now's a good time to update the wiki yourself Mono if you would please. You can fill in the parts you understood and got through by yourself and you'll have an especially vivid memory for some of the less straightforward parts since you needed to ask for guidance about it. I used to write about the bosses in the main game as I fought through it, jotting down notes when the attacks weren't translated and I could only describe their effects. Currently, I'm not in any position contribute anything new, and the strategies I plan on using probably won't work all that well at challenge level.

I'm also addicted to my Switch and Genso Wanderer Reloaded so my attention has been split even more.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 05, 2018, 07:31:58 PM
On an unrelated note, you guys should give Kokoro another chance - now Worrisome Man of Qi actually hurts^^
Kokoro is solidly OK; the Qi buff was great, and her mask effect was slightly increased. It's just that she's not actually better than.. most of your other options. The mask effect is still pretty low on not-Kokoro, you're still buffing boss attack/magic. And her bulk/damage, while totally sufficient, aren't anything special unless the boss is weak to her physical move for fighting spirit charges.

One of the upsides is she can build for either damage stat, so you can subclass for literally any weakness, so there's that. That's the only thing she really has going for her past having fairly good base stats, though. Almost all of her kit is about her emotions, and they aren't very useful beyond serving as her damage boost passive. Still... yeah, her damage is fine, she's got some bulk, putting her in the party works out fine. It's just that you can definitely do better if she isn't one of your favorite characters.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on November 05, 2018, 10:58:54 PM
Kokoro is solidly OK; the Qi buff was great, and her mask effect was slightly increased. It's just that she's not actually better than.. most of your other options. The mask effect is still pretty low on not-Kokoro, you're still buffing boss attack/magic. And her bulk/damage, while totally sufficient, aren't anything special unless the boss is weak to her physical move for fighting spirit charges.

One of the upsides is she can build for either damage stat, so you can subclass for literally any weakness, so there's that. That's the only thing she really has going for her past having fairly good base stats, though. Almost all of her kit is about her emotions, and they aren't very useful beyond serving as her damage boost passive. Still... yeah, her damage is fine, she's got some bulk, putting her in the party works out fine. It's just that you can definitely do better if she isn't one of your favorite characters.

I do agree that her damage isn't outstanding, though I have swapped her into Kasen's place and I'd argue she's definitely stronger than Kasen, especially in terms of multi-target damage (Echoes of the Nine Forest Gods just doesn't compare).

What I really like about Kokoro, though, is that she's incredibly bulky for the sort of damage she can dish out - her balanced stats combined with cheap library costs and fast levelling rate gives her a stunning amount of resilience. I'm gonna wait until I get "equal gears/gems" before I make more solid comparisons, but right now I'm pleasantly surprised with how easy it is to keep Kokoro out, against even the fiercest foes.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 05, 2018, 11:25:54 PM
Problem is that as you get farther into Plus, def/mnd steadily matter less and less against most kinds of attacks. It never goes completely out of style, but it's really not the focus. It's damage reduction passives and max HP. (Which is boosted -so- much on base level, plus if you use Eirin, well...) When most of your party is awakened, a lot of attackers have some pretty intense damage reduction abilities, and more than a couple who just plain resist dying.

At that point, having nice def/mnd and above average base hp isn't quite as meaningful as before, and she only gets direct damage reduction if she spams her Physical attack. Not when you've got people like Youmu/Mokou/Akyuu who literally won't die, Meiling with ~42% direct reduction, all the people with non-dependent Fighting Spirit, etc. And all of those people can deal pretty intense damage. People who -don't- carry that level of durability mostly feature either even MORE damage (marisa spark with murakumo boost) or some kind of specialty, like ignoring defense/mind (REALLY important on some very hard fights) or having support stuff on the side.

Kokoro's got a side-support! ...but the masks only effect stats by like 10%, so it's a really weak support.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 06, 2018, 02:10:25 PM
I decided to try and see how much they changed Flandre's spells in the Plus Disk (only on the ATK/MAG multiplier side since I was feeling lazy). It seems that Forbidden Fruit went from 484% MAG to ~580% MAG, which makes it the second strongest MT spell in the game formula wise, losing only to Parsee's Jealousy of the Kind and Lovely (which has a significantly higher DEF factor, since Forbidden Fruit pierces 40% of the enemies MND). On the other hand, Laveatein went from 432% ATK+MAG down to ~300% ATK+MAG, which was a pretty big nerf (though its still the strongest composite spell in the game).

On a related note, it seems that Jealousy of the Kind and Lovely gets a ~5% damage boost for every 10000 TRR on the enemy.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 06, 2018, 03:13:31 PM
Interestingly, that actually makes Forbidden Fruit significantly stronger than Starbow Break, as well as multitarget and non-self-damaging. It does drain 10% ATB and cost significantly more though. But in later plus disk... those are no longer meaningful problems.

I think after base stat tweaking is done, Forbidden Fruit isn't that much weaker than atk-build Lavaeteinn, as well. (And not massively so even before that)

Vampiric Attack and Smouldering Madness still help give Starbow a bit of an edge, but honestly, Forbidden Fruit should generally outperform, and in late Plus her immense hp and now-fixable affinities actually make her somewhat durable, so not killing herself is nice. It'll easily outdamage subclass attacks if elemental resistance isn't a factor.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 06, 2018, 06:21:14 PM
Oh btw, since I got an account on the wiki recently, I decided to make a few edits. For reference:
-Fixed some mistakes in Cirno's section (which were my fault in the first place) regarding White Album (the formula was wrong because I didn't notice the buff at level 1 was increased) and Avenge the Tomboy (the damage bonus is only on Cirno's personal spellcards).
-Added the MND and DEF multipliers in Minoriko and the Guardian's spells.
-Updated Vampric Attack and Remi's spells.
-Added some details about Maribel's healing and Akyuu's boost effects.
-Added the Dragon God and WINNER subclasses.

I'm thinking of trying to add the appropiate base stat rankings in the Plus Disk character sections next (probably in the next few days).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on November 07, 2018, 09:29:33 AM
I appear to be missing one of Tokiko's books, the ones I've got are : Non-Neumann Systems 9, 10 and 11, so I assume it's 12 I'm missing.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 07, 2018, 05:32:17 PM
I appear to be missing one of Tokiko's books, the ones I've got are : Non-Neumann Systems 9, 10 and 11, so I assume it's 12 I'm missing.
I think the last tokiko book is actually found later than her recruit event is, but it's been awhile.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on November 07, 2018, 06:33:23 PM
It should be on floor 21, actually. There's a rock that wants more dark fragments than you're likely to have when passing by, and it's pretty easy to forget about.

It's Kokoro that you must backtrack for, her last mask is slightly deeper in floor 24 than her actual recruit event is.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on November 07, 2018, 09:16:55 PM
It should be on floor 21, actually. There's a rock that wants more dark fragments than you're likely to have when passing by, and it's pretty easy to forget about.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on November 08, 2018, 03:12:58 PM
It's Kokoro that you must backtrack for, her last mask is slightly deeper in floor 24 than her actual recruit event is.

To be accurate, the last Kokoro mask is actually on floor 23, but in a section which you can reach only from floor 24. Specifically, there is a section on the west side of floor 24 where there are two rocks blocking the way. One requires the water attunement, one requires the fire attunement. Beyond the latter there's a hole leading to a section of floor 23 where there is Kokoro's last mask.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 10, 2018, 11:09:21 AM
Hmm, it seems that Reimu's Barrier Expert skill is bugged, from some quick testing, my best guess is that its only applying the PAR strength but not the PAR chance, which means that the only thing it does right now is increase the PAR effect of attacks that already cause PAR by 3000, it does not increase the chance of it landing and has no effect on attacks that weren't able to cause PAR in the first place.

EDIT: Komachi's Scythe that Chooses the Dead's formula was wrong apparently, if you look at the spellcard dump you can see its 170%ATK*1.5 which would be 255% of her ATK, not 300%. I confirmed that its 255% by testing it in game right now (already fixed it).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 10, 2018, 03:58:36 PM
The problem is, some attacks were buffed after that dump. I'm not sure if that's the case with that attack or not, though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 10, 2018, 04:26:51 PM
Yeah, that's why I tested it, with 10m ATK Komachi dealt an average of 25m damage with Scythe that Chooses the Dead against the 1F squirrels.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Monothemeerp on November 10, 2018, 04:34:52 PM
Any tips for
Demi-Fiend
? Still the same comp. Renko, Aya, Mari, Reisen, Reimu, Sanae, Eirin, Akyuu, Miko, Kasen with Cirno for the starting debuff and Eiki for the damage reduction.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on November 10, 2018, 05:53:21 PM
King of Chaos
automatically heals its side to full HP when it gets below something like 66% of its HP, it and the summons can also use this after a set number of turns, think it was 12 for the boss and 15 for the summons. If you defeat 4 of the summoned enemies then it'll use
Gaea Rage
. Basic premise would be to get it down to the heal threshold and then try to blow it away afterwards. The knight summon can remove debuffs on the enemy side, but otherwise the summons are nothing special. Does make Cirno a lot less useful though.

Boss' weakness is just SPI. Looking at your party composition, you probably want Sanae out for the SPI buff. Haven't tested how hard Night of Bright Guest Stars hits but that + Murakumo's Blessing might actually be really powerful,
King of Chaos
has average DEF/MND. Otherwise, just use whatever your strongest SPI attacks are. Might be better to brute force it with Maribel + Renko though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 10, 2018, 06:33:28 PM
With Winner and Murakumo classes (and Eiki/Miko's attacks), there's no shortage of SPI, and you've got Sanae and Akyuu's boosts to help. Just don't kill toooo many of the summons and blast it down before it fullheals the second time. You've got Eirin and Akyuu so surviving shouldn't be too bad when you learn what summons you want to get rid of.
Yeah, that's why I tested it, with 10m ATK Komachi dealt an average of 25m damage with Scythe that Chooses the Dead against the 1F squirrels.
herp derp totally missed that you said you tested it XD
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 10, 2018, 07:03:26 PM
As far as I remember the boss himself only uses Ultimate Life once when he goes down to about 80% HP, he doesn't use it anymore afterwards; his summons will use it every 15 turns though. As Lonely and Serela said, you want Akyuu in the front for the 50% boost and the weakness damage+Sanae for the increased SPI damage, then just have your prefered attacker spam SPI attacks; add in the 25% damage boost from Renko's awakening and maybe even the Murakumo's 48% damage boost and you should be able to take out the boss before his summons reach their 15th turn, otherwise killing the summons before they reach it isn't too difficult either (I believe the Knight always uses Dekaja on his 10th turn or so, so you can always use that as a reference).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Phen on November 11, 2018, 01:45:26 PM
Something I just noticed while grinding in b11f. I'm using Marisa with Murakumo and Rumia/Sanae/Ran to one shot the groups and was wondering why she was getting 6% defense/mind buffs when her turn comes around. Then I realized the Murakumo passive is sucking up the defense buff from Tenshi in the back. This is in contrast to the description on the wiki and ingame that says it absorbs buffs from the frontline. This means she can get a significant magic buff off one Ran buff even if she is in the back row at the time of casting. In the front row, she ends up with 86% when Ran has enhancer and 4 sorcs in the party and 69% if she was at the back. Of course if you are going for hakkero charge, she'll probably have max buff anyway by the time she comes out but it also applies to any other Murakumo user. Additionally, with Enhancer Ran, Strategist Akyu, an herbalist(Satori for another spark?), and 8 backline sorcs, she can nearly have a max damage spark on the first round of turns in a battle, only missing charge, elementalist boost, and renko which can be made up somewhat with custom mode. I like the feeling of this setup since it feels like all the backliners are lending their power to Marisa.

Also, now realizing enhancer and ancient scepter have no effect on the buffs the backline receives from Ran.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 11, 2018, 05:13:08 PM
Oh yeah, I totally had a lot bosses where I opened up with Charge, Akyuu Boost, Master Spark, then swapped her into the back to build mp for a battle-ending spark later. Akyuu's invincibility also makes it a lot easier to take advantage of magic drain missile (plus murakumo mp drain recovery) here and there. All the mp suction isn't that big of a deal in endgame where most people have excessive mp totals.

Satori can't spark quite the way Marisa can, but her 25% mp recovery passive does make it pretty workable, and she'll have Marisa's MYS boost still.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 11, 2018, 05:34:05 PM
The japanese version does actually state it drains buff from all allies ("味方全員"), so its mainly an error in translation I guess (or maybe the description was changed in one of the patches).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on November 16, 2018, 12:09:53 PM
Just out of curiosity... how "extended" is the overflow issue, currently? Do all bosses overflow beyond their "first fight", or just a few ones? I've seen WINNER overflowing beyond around lvl 1800 or so iirc, but I dunno about the rest.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Woo hoo lol on November 19, 2018, 08:53:06 PM
Does anyone know how to patch the plus disk game to 1.104? I have 1.103, but it doesn't have the new floors. I'm pretty stuck since I don't have a single clue how to patch a game. I managed to download a file that says it's 1.105, but it just crashes whenever I try to open it. Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Phen on November 19, 2018, 10:53:34 PM
Testing out Byakuren a bit and found she actually can maintain 100% self-buffs as a strategist since she's getting 14% buffs per turn. She also gets 5% all stats, up to 40%, as an EX buff from being healed (except hourai elixir and probably passives like enhancer) if she has superhuman blood. If someone with a wiki account could correct her entry that'd be great.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 20, 2018, 12:15:56 PM
Testing out Byakuren a bit and found she actually can maintain 100% self-buffs as a strategist since she's getting 14% buffs per turn. She also gets 5% all stats, up to 40%, as an EX buff from being healed (except hourai elixir and probably passives like enhancer) if she has superhuman blood. If someone with a wiki account could correct her entry that'd be great.
Changed it, the 14% buffs is technically a bug, since its supposed to be nerfed to 12% (though it doesn't really make that much of a difference later in the game). Interestingly enough, the +5% stats doesn't procc on percentage based heals except for Rinnosuke's Precise Experience.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 20, 2018, 04:30:54 PM
Unfortunately for most of the point where you'd have awakened Byakuren, def/mnd don't make a particularly large difference and her stats don't scale particularly great either. Above average with the 100% buffs, but nothing special at all. She gets pretty stale unless your party really wants her synergies, e.g. Sanae is at least as durable and buffs comparably without a requirement, but also carries a healing move and a bunch of nice passives.

Although it's good to have the wiki updated with her tweaks, of course.
Just out of curiosity... how "extended" is the overflow issue, currently? Do all bosses overflow beyond their "first fight", or just a few ones? I've seen WINNER overflowing beyond around lvl 1800 or so iirc, but I dunno about the rest.
You can overdo the corridor a bit but iirc by the time you hit the second or third special boss they'll be overflowing. (Granted, the third is halfway through the corridor already) Winner doesn't overflow until past the mid 3000s IIRC, or at least the fight still plays out mostly normally to where you don't really notice. I fought him a bunch of times and his fight didn't break, but I didn't really keep leveling after I finished the last 30f fight.

So, if you don't go significantly past the end of Original Content you won't see any overflows, but it doesn't hold up terribly long after that. Can probably dive at least a hundred more floors into the corridor if that's your thing while waiting on 3peso, though. He'll fix it... someday (he's said as much), but don't hold your breath. :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Phen on November 21, 2018, 07:01:58 AM
Even more testing fun times.

I was looking at the spellcard info on the OP and noticed a lot of the status spells are ailm(ailment).power = ailm(ailment).power + number. So I got the idea that those main equips that say they make all attacks inflict a status could improve those spells with that status already. Tested it out with Iku vs 30f murakumo on his left arm which is vulnerable to paralyze. Without the taser, she inflicts around 5k paralyze, with it 8k. This also occurs with Rumia after awakening. 5k para without, 7-8k with and 5k heavy without, 10k heavy with. It does NOT occur with Kasen and her cursed arm attack, which goes along with the theory as that spell is not listed as having the additional power.

My next thought was if this effect would have no benefit towards shock and death since those effects occur and disappear instantly regardless of power. So I looked at the spellcard infos and some spells that inflict those status have ailm(ailment).chance = ailm(ailment).chance + number. So I assume the relevant equips would also boost the chance of the status landing as well. Potentially by quite a lot for spells with a low inflict rate like cat's walk. Some spells don't seem like they would be affected though like Reisen's mind starmine. It should be noted while I was testing Rumia and the taser, she failed to land paralyze a few times so if it does boost it, it's not a very large amount. All of this also possibly means these equips do nothing for attacks that don't already inflict those statuses. I killed a lot of kedamas and squirrels on the first floor with the taser equipped and didn't see a single proc from normal attacks.

This explains why Reimu's awakening skill doesn't actually let her apply paralyze on all her attacks. Those skills weren't programmed to even have a chance at a 0 power paralyze so the awakening skill has no effect. Doesn't really make sense when looking at Rumia though unless 3peso specifically changed that spell for it to work. Indeed, I opened my save with the non plus exe and Rumia could not inflict paralyze with moonlight ray with the taser. Also, got a nice look at what happens when you have plus disk items and characters in your party when you use the non plus disk exe.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 21, 2018, 11:09:02 AM
Ailment chance and strength from spells, passives and items all do indeed stack together (except for a few specific spells that don't), this can be easily tested with Yuyuko, who has a 128% chance to inflict DTH, which would mean she can't inflict those with 128 DTH resistance in regular conditions, but if you equip her with the Dark Will, she can. This also means that Eirin is capable of inflicting PSN on any enemy, as long as she brings Reisen along (ie Pharmacist's Lethal Poison Mixing combined with Poisonous Incense gives her over 150% chance to inflict PSN, and no enemy has over 200 PSN resistance as far as I know).

The equips do give you a chance to land the ailments, its just very low, the Kedamas and Squirrels in 1F have 10 PAR resistance, so as long as the Taser gives you 10% or less chance to inflict PAR, you'll never be able to land it on them. If you switch to an enemy with 0 PAR resistance, you'll eventually land it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 21, 2018, 02:14:56 PM
Ah, that explains why those equips only seemed to work like 4% of the time. It's good to have confirmation they stack with innate effects though, I figured they did but I wasn't sure. Definitely good for characters focused around statuses, especially DTH.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 21, 2018, 04:37:01 PM
While we're at it, some other miscellaneous data about how status ailments work:

-All statuses have about a 10% random variance, just like Attacks and spellcards (eg Wriggle's Comet on Earth can inflict between 36000-44000 PSN).

-If you get inflicted by a status, your resistance reduces its initial duration by 5% for every 10 points of resistance (eg if you have 100 resistance, Wriggle's Comet on Earth would inflict between 18000-22000 PSN).

-The rate at which a status effect ticks down depends on your resistance, at 0 its 1 ATB for 1 point of status (so a 40000 PSN would last 40000 ATB), the recovery rate increases by 15% for every 10 points of resistance (so 50 resistance means 1 ATB equals 1.75 points of status, at 100 it would be 2.5 and at 200 it would be 4). As such, a 20000 status is effectively a 5000 status for an enemy with 200 resistance to that ailment.
Reisen's resistance reducing skills do not affect the recovery speed of the enemies (which probably means it doesn't passively reduce enemy resistance, but rather give your allies resistance piercing on their attacks).

-PSN deals damage according to how much ATB the enemy gains when under the status (ie it doesn't depend on the tick down of the status itself). PSN deals 1% of an enemies' HP for every 100 ATB they gain (so gaining a full 10000 ATB bar is enough to reduce them to 1 HP); PSN damage is reduced on bosses down to 0,06% HP per 100 ATB (or 6% for every 10000 ATB), Tokiko's Crossed Over Endangered Bird increases this by about 10% (ie about 6,6% per 10000 ATB).

-Status effects from multiple attacks do not stack, the one that's stronger remains. For example, if an enemy is inflicted by a 20000 PSN and you then inflict a 40000 PSN on it, the enemy will end up with a PSN effect between 36000-44000, straight up overwriting the original status effect; if in the same situation you inflict a 10000 PSN, the original 20000 PSN will remain. The only exception to this rule is Sakuya's Private Square, which will always overwrite whatever PAR the enemy already has (ie a 8000 PAR will go down to 2800).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Phen on November 21, 2018, 09:12:24 PM
Thanks for all the info. May I ask where you got it from? Or was it just from your own testing.

You were right about the items' proc chance. I went and found some enemies with 0 resistance and it did finally proc so it must be adding <10% chance to the attack. So I guess that means Reimu's awakening skill is just straight up bugged. Just another thing to tell 3peso when he gets around to patching it again. Last I checked he was bingeing on arpgs.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 21, 2018, 11:08:22 PM
Thanks for all the info. May I ask where you got it from? Or was it just from your own testing.
All from my own testing, started with the Reimu PAR skill and then went down the rabbit hole  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on November 22, 2018, 03:19:32 AM
PSN deals 1% of an enemies' HP for every 100 ATB they gain (so gaining a full 10000 ATB bar is enough to reduce them to 1 HP)

I had noticed how ridiculously fast psn can drain HP but wow, I didn't think it was that strong.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 22, 2018, 04:39:03 PM
For people so inclined to overplay the game past the end, poison might actually be a really good way to kill random enemies at immense levels... the higher your level gets, the closer they'll get to dropping their entire HP bar in a single tick, which would be achieved safely(ish) via speed-build Aya. Even if the poison ALSO wears off in about as much time. Of course, I'd have to wonder how many infinite enemies particularly resist it. Sounds like Eirin has an immense infliction chance though to help out, especially if Reisen is fielded.

And it's somewhat relevant on those immense-defense bosses, which are not easy fights.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 22, 2018, 08:39:19 PM
I was fixing part of Hina's character section (Curse Reversal does indeed overwrite her original debuffs); then I ended up testing some of Hina's skills and noticed the in-game description numbers on some are a bit inaccurate. Misfortune Stockpiling transfers 30% of debuffs per level instead of 33%.  Spinning More than Usual's game description is completely inaccurate, the buff is 25% to all stats instead of 33% and the MP recovery 3 instead of 10 (just goes to show that quite literaly no one ever uses the skill  :V).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on November 22, 2018, 09:05:44 PM
How do you guys grind levels? I'm finally looking to finish this game off and close the book on it, but the sheer grindwall is really getting in my way. I've been faming b11, but at the rate it's been going, it seems like I'll need 15-30 hours of nothing but this before I'm up to that 1700-2000 range to actually end the game. I'm 1100 now. Is this all I can really do, just put in the time, or is there some protip to speed this up?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on November 22, 2018, 11:10:16 PM
Yeah, that's about it. If you aren't wiping everything out nearly instantly, farming Metal Kedama on 30f might be faster for a few hundred levels. It would certainly be easier. You are farming the section of 11f where 4-5 enemies spawn per encounter, right?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Solstice on November 23, 2018, 04:41:33 AM
So I came back to this game after a while to play it with the 1.105 patch and I'm currently at 20F with just the Ame-no-Murakumo left to beat to complete the main story. It turns out that at some point the Magatama of the High God got fixed so that it doesn't use Concentrate for no reason at 50% HP. Instead, it uses Grace of Tama no Oya no Mikoto, which is the move that the sword uses to heal itself and give a 100% buff to both defenses. This info isn't on the wiki (English or Japanese) and I didn't see anyone in the thread mention it, so I wanted to make sure to bring this to someone else's attention. Maybe someone with a wiki account can make a quick edit?

Incidentally, it didn't really affect the difficulty of the fight too much for me. I went in expecting to be able to exploit the fact that its scripted moves can't kill anyone and just burst its entire HP bar down with attackers (Flandre and Reisen primarily), and with a bit of luck (the one random move it got to throw at me was just the HP halving move) I was still able to chew through it despite the extra health and buffs.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on November 24, 2018, 11:52:42 AM
Huh, so apparently, while DBF resistance  decreases the chance of a debuff landing in the first place, it also INCREASES the strength of the debuffs you receive; for every 10 points of resistance you have, it increases the strength of a debuff you're inflicted with by 3,75% (so having 80 resistance multiplies the strength of any debuff you're inflicted with by 1,3). This applies for both the allies' DBF resistance  and each of the enemies' individual DBF resistances. I'm not sure if that's how its supposed to work.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 24, 2018, 03:28:19 PM
Huh, well that would explain why Hina's Biorhythm debuffs usually hit for 40~50%. Pretty sure it's supposed to be the other way around.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: vetokend on November 24, 2018, 03:34:45 PM
Hey all, been a while since I posted here.  Just a super quick question!

I'm starting to get burned out on beating bosses at their challenge level, but I'm worried that if I don't do this, I'll miss out on some loot that I can never obtain later.

Is there permanently missable loot to be gained from fighting bosses at their challenge level?  Thanks!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 24, 2018, 03:49:16 PM
Nope, it's just stat boost Gems, which are mass-farmable in late plus disk. However, they're only available in very limited quantity until halfway through Plus Disk, and still somewhat limited until the final floor.

But, nothing permanently missable. You can get all you like eventually.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on November 24, 2018, 04:30:25 PM
Hey all, been a while since I posted here.  Just a super quick question!

I'm starting to get burned out on beating bosses at their challenge level, but I'm worried that if I don't do this, I'll miss out on some loot that I can never obtain later.

Is there permanently missable loot to be gained from fighting bosses at their challenge level?  Thanks!

Also, in addition to what Serela did, you can remove characters from your party in order to lower the average level - for example, a lvl 80 challenge boss could be easily wiped by a party of 4 lvl 240 characters.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 24, 2018, 04:50:55 PM
Plus Cirno can be used as a lv1 suicide bomb for her irresistable -50% spd debuff on death passive.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: isanomi on November 25, 2018, 05:01:00 PM
Hello, I'm new here, I just defeated
Yamata no Orochi
and somehow the achievement for defeating it still hasn't been unlocked, can someone explain what did I do wrong? Or more like, I can't unlock any of the plus disk achievement at all?
my version is 1.104a
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: jaxter0987 on November 27, 2018, 05:35:39 AM
Hello, I'm new here, I just defeated
Yamata no Orochi
and somehow the achievement for defeating it still hasn't been unlocked, can someone explain what did I do wrong? Or more like, I can't unlock any of the plus disk achievement at all?
my version is 1.104a
Well, you should update to the latest version then, which I believe is 1.105. It shouldn't make a difference technically but it couldn't hurt to be up to date. Maybe it'll fix itself after updating, since you'd boot the save file up using the new executable.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 27, 2018, 02:40:20 PM
Well, it's worth noting there's an achievement for defeating a different from of the Yamato No Orochi found further in plus disk. Although, you should have achievement 45 if you beat the Final Main Plot Boss version of him and got your plus disk credits. Can you literally not get ANY plus disk achievements at all? That's a strange bug. I would try updating first, yeah.

Keep in mind you need a new version of the english exe after you update to 1.105 as well. Which is here! https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qeCHUohX3mV-eSSCCUVeeIW3HpAREoyK

If you've somehow been using mismatched versions of plus disk and english patch and the game actually runs, I guess that could potentially be your problem, but I don't know that it'd even function...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: isanomi on November 27, 2018, 03:55:28 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/fFSxAgv.jpg)
I'm not sure what is going on anymore
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 27, 2018, 08:44:54 PM
Uh... something is very broken. :T Might just want to back up your saves and make a new installation of the game...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Solstice on November 27, 2018, 10:27:28 PM
I'm now making it through some of the main game's postgame and I have another tiny change to report. During the first boss rush, when the three Golden Orbs spawn, it is now the Golden Orb of Forward time that comes in with 0 ATB gauge with the others at 5000, when previously it was the Orb of the Canopy.

Also, on the topic if achievement issues, do the postgame achievements ever show their full information? I'm still getting the achievements and their rewards, and I see that the achievement descriptions tell you what they were for, but the lines that usually tell you what it's for and what the reward is still show as question marks even after I get them.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 27, 2018, 10:57:19 PM
Also, on the topic if achievement issues, do the postgame achievements ever show their full information? I'm still getting the achievements and their rewards, and I see that the achievement descriptions tell you what they were for, but the lines that usually tell you what it's for and what the reward is still show as question marks even after I get them.
Just the ones on the bottom line are like that, that you get from beating the big required-to-progress bosses. All the others should be showing their info.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on November 28, 2018, 05:46:56 PM
Curious, how do I update to ver. 1.105?

Edit: nvm got it
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: KyokoDolls on December 08, 2018, 05:45:09 AM
Question: is there a new game plus save file available yet with all characters unlocked, plus disk included? the one pinned to the thread is the onl one that stops before Maribel and Renko.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Nefer007 on December 12, 2018, 10:21:02 PM
... does anyone have a map of B9F? Because I keep getting lost in the cold darkness at the tainted altar within these flaming claret hollows (if you get my drift ;).) Honestly, the fact that the map doesn't do things like label arrows, ice tiles, and darkness is annoying.

EDIT: I did manage to explore every tile, but sliding around in the dark was less fun than just stumbling around in the dark of B7F. Not to mention that B9F Far is particularly dark when compared to the Azure Prison...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: KyokoDolls on December 13, 2018, 09:16:21 PM
If no one has a new game plus file, can someone who has all the characters unlocked upload their PCF01 file from their save folder and post a link to it? I think i can work from there.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Rinnie on December 14, 2018, 01:29:31 PM
... does anyone have a map of B9F? Because I keep getting lost in the cold darkness at the tainted altar within these flaming claret hollows (if you get my drift ;).) Honestly, the fact that the map doesn't do things like label arrows, ice tiles, and darkness is annoying.
<snap>
and
If no one has a new game plus file, can someone who has all the characters unlocked upload their PCF01 file from their save folder and post a link to it? I think i can work from there.
Here you can download my savefiles:
https://ufile.io/54nyx
This save contains all chars unlocked and all maps revealed.

Be careful, as this save has some extremely powerful characters who were made so powerful by the means of cheating.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: xor on December 15, 2018, 12:19:19 AM
Here's a file right at the start with all characters unlocked: http://www.mediafire.com/file/qle88m3aym3cdv3/save1.zip/file - literally none of the game's flags have been triggered except for the intro and talking to akyu for the first time. As soon as you load it you are gonna get loadsa achievements and some cutscenes for having all characters.

I've had a half-finished and slightly iffy cheat engine table for the game sat on my harddrive for best part of a year that I used to make that save. It's been broken since the last patch so I've been waiting for the promised overflow-fixing patch to be released before taking the effort to fix it up and release it. I'm starting to think that it's never going to happen, so if there's some interest in it I might take the effort to fix it up and release it for this patch.

If anyone is interested, at present it can edit:

For all characters:
  Current Level
  Total Experience
  Current Subclass (so you can have multiple Murakumos/Dragon Gods/Winners)
  Available Skills/Spellcards/Subclass skills and their levels (Max you can have is 60)
  Gems/Jewels/Skill Books used
  Equipped Items (the game refuses to show plus disc items until you beat the main game but you can edit them in manually here if you want)
 
Current Money
Number of Battles completed this run
What items have been collected and their quantities
Characters recruited
Current X/Y pos on the current map
Temperature in the Fire floors
Current Infinite Corridor floor
Infinite Corridor bonuses (e.g. Drop Rate +10%)
7 Stars/Renmants
Encounter rate

At present the memory locations have to be updated every time the game starts because the game doesn't statically allocate much of its interesting memory. I can fix it by finding pointers instead of using raw memory addresses, but it's a huge pain to do so (hence the waiting for the next patch).

Even with the pointers, the editing skills is a bit iffy - the game seems to use the memory locations I've found as a cache but writes to them every time you change screen. In order to get any changes to stay past a screen transition you have to use the freeze value function (hitting space) in cheat engine. Skills that directly increase stats (including Maintenance) seem to not work, but everything that takes effect in battle does. The game also saves all of the levels of your customised skill set correctly so provided you re-edit the correct slots. I also know there's one or two skill values in the table that are wrong and will crash the game (I started from a text dump of the skill ids I found and it had some wrong values in it), however finding them is a pain.

Anyone interested?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IRUN on December 18, 2018, 02:36:48 AM
I am. It would make NG+ runs much more convenient to start.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: KyokoDolls on December 18, 2018, 09:52:59 PM
Would there be a way to add something to the table that would let you awaken a character? Might be good for testing and fun/challenge runs.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: xor on December 19, 2018, 03:13:39 PM
I've pulled out all the stuff that doesn't require pointers (items) into its own cheat table that you can download here: http://www.mediafire.com/file/pt3m25ey6b5kpmt/THLabyrinth2Plus_out-wip.CT/file (http://www.mediafire.com/file/pt3m25ey6b5kpmt/THLabyrinth2Plus_out-wip.CT/file)

Please, please, please let me know if that doesn't work for anyone. If it doesn't work it means we're using different versions of the game. I'd really like to know it I'm not using the latest version because finding pointers is an utter pain and I don't want to have to do re-do it because I'm not up to date. I can access floor 30 and the infinite corridor is actually infinite so I *think* I'm up to date.

Would there be a way to add something to the table that would let you awaken a character? Might be good for testing and fun/challenge runs.
Funny you should ask that. The cheat table I've posted here let's you do exactly that. The game only checks to see if you have the appropriate item when determining awakening skill access. You just need to flag the awakening item as collected and set it's quantity to be anything other than 0 and you're good to go (you'll need to exit and re-enter the skills screen if you're already on it when doing this).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: xor on December 21, 2018, 06:15:46 PM
http://www.mediafire.com/file/h3jcqs9pcg9lo11/THLabyrinth2Plus_out-wip-pointers.zip/file

I could do with some testing before I finish this off. I've isolated some pointers and need some confirmation that they work on other peoples' computers. I currently don't have access to another computer to try this myself and lack the HDD space/patience to set up a Windows Virtual Machine to give it a go in.

Things this adds:

Editing Reimu's stats/skills
Money
Characters Recruited
Consecutive Battles
Total Battlles
Consecutive Escapes
Total Escapes
Game Overs
Temperature
X/Y Pos
Adventures
Encounter Rate

Still remaining

Editing every characters stats except Reimu (if you really want it, find a character's full name and copy and paste all the entries under Reimu into it - they're all relative to a character's full name)
Infinite Corridor related stuff

The file is zipped this time because cheat engine tables use a garbage XML format that doesn't allow you to share drop down options between elements. Each character has 60 skill slots and these slots each have 1500 possible values. The unzipped file is 8 mb. The completed, currently broken file I have is >100mb. :derp:

-- EDIT --

If people could PM which pointers work for them that would be better than spamming up this thread. For reference, they all work for me.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Myosotis on December 30, 2018, 07:43:14 AM
Can someone confirm if I got the current state of the game right? The very final patch finally arrived including all planned fixes, but the story was never translated because of a lack of translator/s?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on December 30, 2018, 10:32:01 AM
Uhh, I think the translator has been inactive for some time now, but the final patch has yet to arrive, as we still need a few bug fixes. Namely overflow bugs.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: nav' on January 01, 2019, 12:39:52 PM
As some of you might have noticed (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,21609.0.html), Karisa has recently founded a Discord server, Sea of Tranquility, oriented towards Touhou players. This includes fangames, and I believe Labyrinth of Touhou is among the most well known Touhou fangames around. LoT threads have been a staple of this community for a long while, myself happily participating on several occasions.

If you guys would like a place for live chat about our character builds, boss strats and anything else LoT-themed, we would be willing to create a dedicated LoT channel. Is anyone interested in joining?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on January 01, 2019, 04:04:07 PM
I'd love it, personally^^ I already spend most of my PC time on Discord so having a chatroom for LoT as well would be nice
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on January 01, 2019, 08:44:46 PM
Same here. I'd love a Discord channel for this.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: jaxter0987 on January 02, 2019, 09:49:44 AM
Can someone confirm if I got the current state of the game right? The very final patch finally arrived including all planned fixes, but the story was never translated because of a lack of translator/s?
Final patch has yet to arrive, though I believe all the content is already out? Story was never translated because the translator whose also done many other games on shrinemaiden has basically been missing for the past 3 months. There's the translation project thread for this so someone could probably try to pick up where he left off. But he put in quite a lot of work and I'm not quite sure the level of Japanese needed to notice a reference is being made, let alone what the references are referring to.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Karisa on January 02, 2019, 01:00:20 PM
The Discord channel's created now. Enjoy.

Suggestions about the channel name/description would be appreciated, considering I have little knowledge of what would be discussed there (not much of an RPG player myself).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on January 02, 2019, 07:35:27 PM
Thank you so much^^
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Phen on January 03, 2019, 01:11:55 AM
This kills the thread
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: jaxter0987 on January 03, 2019, 09:42:35 AM
Nah, the thread won't be killed, just slowed down for the people that are using discord frequently. There's still the group of people that don't use discord at all, and the group of people that find there way into Labyrinth of Touhou from here on the forums.

As for the channel description/ header , I'm pretty torn on how to approach it. I'd want to put almost the entirety of the first post of this thread on there, but seeing as there's a limit of 1024 characters....
Actually, there's quite a lot that's not really relevant to being placed in the channel header.

Here's my draft of what to include:
LoT1 Patch: http://www.mediafire.com/download/mzdgl54mxmi/thLabyrinth_ver2.04.zip
LoT1 Special Disk Patch: http://www.mediafire.com/download/ahccqhixp7d1n9p/thLabyrinth_ver3.01.zip
English Patch for 3.01 Special Disk: http://www.mediafire.com/?t1v567p5sced1zl
New Game+ File for 3.01: http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7188.0;attach=15055
Where to buy LoT2: http://www.melonbooks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=IT0000165852
How to navigate through Melonbooks: http://imgur.com/a/qA3Dc


I've learned that melonbooks.com now returns a 403 Forbidden error for me. So I don't know if there's a current tutorial for people outside of Japan to obtain LoT2.

The kind of stuff in the first post could also be just pins so I don't really know what to put in the header otherwise. "Discuss anything related to Labyrinth of Touhou here." or something I don't know.

Decided to post this here instead of discussing it in the channel itself because I don't know how many people on here have actually joined the server.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on January 03, 2019, 09:46:42 AM
Hmm... I can access melonbooks.com , but I had to use a few tricks that I had up my sleeve, so I'm not sure if they even want us there anymore?

EDIT: Uh. Some of you can probably guess what that was, but as it might be against the rules, I'm not sure if I should say. I think I'll PM a mod about it, later.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: niektory on January 03, 2019, 10:50:39 AM
You need to use a proxy/VPN I guess? It's a dick move on their part, as people who have bought stuff from them (like me) can't access it anymore.

The games are on DLsite (https://www.dlsite.com/home/circle/profile/=/maker_id/RG08867.html) as well, maybe they can still be bought there?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on January 03, 2019, 11:14:04 PM
melonbooks.com is blocking foreign IPs as of a few months ago.

There's a "workaround" of going to http://touch.melonbooks.com/ but that site's pretty awful to navigate. I'm pretty sure you can still buy stuff if you used to be able to, or download your old purchases. I haven't tried that with a game, though.

It doesn't look like they're on english dlsite. Japanese dlsite has historically always blocked my credit cards. I don't know if other people have this problem or not, but it might be difficult to buy from there.

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: niektory on January 03, 2019, 11:34:38 PM
I can indeed download my purchases from the touch site, thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Mellow on January 08, 2019, 02:19:02 AM
I remember having a few friends on a discord server who liked to play the first game. they would always chat about it! And this is surely interesting. It's good to see more touhou content being made. I'm gonna check it out soon. :D I think this is a strategic game also? Please debunk my assumptions lol
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: gensokyorpb on January 09, 2019, 05:40:39 AM
B9F's, B10F's, and 27F's maps have been posted on wiki, in case anyone needs them.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Dungeons (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Dungeons)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on January 09, 2019, 09:28:29 AM
B9F's, B10F's, and 27F's maps have been posted on wiki, in case anyone needs them.


Niiiiice, this is certainly helpful!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on January 10, 2019, 06:15:07 PM
I do hope the translation gets finished someday. It's... playable as it is today, but it would be nice to have the whole thing covered. Guess it mainly depends on when 3peso calls it quits.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on January 19, 2019, 09:20:30 PM
Was the 'extra attack action consumes MP again' bug thing ever fixed? i booted the game up again grinding to finally reach final boss on 30F
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: BananaCupcakey on January 20, 2019, 02:10:54 PM
I have a quick question, if I don't buy the plus disk, does that means no full plus disk expeirence ?
Side note, do I need to invest more on her or rest it until later since I'll be using her long term.
[attach=1]
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on January 20, 2019, 02:45:28 PM
If you don't have Plus Disk, then you won't have Plus Disk content, yes. If you DO get plus though, you can still use that save file, so it's not a problem.

If you're level 204, then you might have already completely finished all non-plus content? That's more than high enough level to beat all the postgame bosses without much issue.

As for investment, I wouldn't worry too much, Plus Disk will end up burying you in money again. Everything's a work in progress~
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: BananaCupcakey on January 20, 2019, 03:29:08 PM
Cleared it days ago, but the only plus disk working is the trial, others betrayed me at least several times and I'm too pissed to continue, and there's no important data in the later patches except the trial so I tried to import files but eventually all is futile anyway. (the Trial crashes really easily, because of that the process of exploring + frequent crash already let me abandoned that acc, and I also know that the only legit copy is to buy it)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: gensokyorpb on January 20, 2019, 04:30:59 PM
28F's, 29F's, 30F's, and B11F's maps (the latter two are in-game maps) have been posted on wiki, in case anyone needs them.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Dungeons
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on January 21, 2019, 11:49:43 PM
Was the 'extra attack action consumes MP again' bug thing ever fixed? i booted the game up again grinding to finally reach final boss on 30F

That's not a bug, at least in the current Plus Disk version, Extra Attack was nerfed to cost half the MP of the original spell used.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: gensokyorpb on January 22, 2019, 06:49:52 AM
Made a Miko solo against Yamata no Orochi (recorded months ago ,using 1.103 patch)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMJAOpX6Agc
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: xor on January 23, 2019, 06:19:12 PM
Been a month since I last posted so should probably post about that cheat table thingy I'm working on.

I've been picking at this every few days trying to find pointers that work consistently but have been consistently coming unstuck when it comes to testing in Windows 8. I'm having no luck with cheat engine's built in scanner (there's a huge recursive stack of pointers to pointers to pointers which makes automated scanning require exponentially more hdd space/cpu time) but have made some first steps into getting them via attaching a debugger and setting break points. Incidentally, the game appears to be written in C++ and compiled with Microsoft Visual Studio 2005.

I've also discovered a completely undocumented cheat engine feature that let's you share dropdown selection options between entries - final file size is now 4 mbs with every character editable. The table now requires Cheat Engine 6.8 in order to edit characters skills, equipment and subclass.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: jester147 on February 14, 2019, 05:56:50 AM
Have been playing Plus Disk for a while. However I often feeling not strong enough to fight the bosses. Always short of money for buying library points and still not enough, and farming in 20F is getting boring. Any advice about moneymaking and library points? I'm at B4F right now.

Also is there any way to swap stat bonuses in bulk? With the Plus Disk getting absurd levels, swapping stats will be very slow...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on February 14, 2019, 07:06:46 AM
IIRC holding A or S when going left/right on stats does 10/100 at once. Or something like that, it's been a while.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Phen on February 15, 2019, 07:01:19 AM
Have been playing Plus Disk for a while. However I often feeling not strong enough to fight the bosses. Always short of money for buying library points and still not enough, and farming in 20F is getting boring. Any advice about moneymaking and library points? I'm at B4F right now.

Also is there any way to swap stat bonuses in bulk? With the Plus Disk getting absurd levels, swapping stats will be very slow...

Check if you have any tomes of reincarnation you can use to refund some characters you aren't using. If you focus on 12ish characters you should get enough money naturally to keep their library levels around the same as their actual level. If you don't have any tomes, you should get access to the infinite corridor shortly which will let you farm infinite gems for more tomes. This is probably obvious but not everyone needs all their stats buffed. Physical dealers don't need magic and magic dealers don't need attack. Support characters that are focused on buffing or using auxilary skills like Aya or Ran don't need their attack or magic increased. You can probably also skimp a bit on defense and mind. You can save a bunch of money that way.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on February 15, 2019, 01:22:59 PM
You can also get significant amounts of extra money by using all the mats you got from the main game to craft and then sell items. Now that you're in Plus Disk, most of the mats from main game are obsolete anyway
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: jester147 on February 16, 2019, 03:16:40 AM
Check if you have any tomes of reincarnation you can use to refund some characters you aren't using. If you focus on 12ish characters you should get enough money naturally to keep their library levels around the same as their actual level. If you don't have any tomes, you should get access to the infinite corridor shortly which will let you farm infinite gems for more tomes. This is probably obvious but not everyone needs all their stats buffed. Physical dealers don't need magic and magic dealers don't need attack. Support characters that are focused on buffing or using auxilary skills like Aya or Ran don't need their attack or magic increased. You can probably also skimp a bit on defense and mind. You can save a bunch of money that way.

You can also get significant amounts of extra money by using all the mats you got from the main game to craft and then sell items. Now that you're in Plus Disk, most of the mats from main game are obsolete anyway

Thanks for the tips! I have more than 12 characters I regularly use, and even more that are situationally useful, but some of them I never use.

I'm stupid for selling the materials directly instead of crafting them, at least I didn't sell the cheap ones and not all in...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on February 24, 2019, 02:45:41 AM
Is there a complete list of all the enemy attack names? for reasons  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on February 25, 2019, 12:37:49 AM
The enemy_attacks.txt file from the translation should be everything. https://pastebin.com/vz3yGxY8

Well, except untranslated enemies. There's probably some of those, now that I think about it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on February 25, 2019, 02:01:10 AM
I will check the translation notes and compare,it seemed like an awfully short list compared to LoT1 database guide,many thanks!

the Bf10 grind is soul draining me i cant beat the 30f touhous
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on February 25, 2019, 07:25:14 AM
Yeah that list is just a portion of the spell cards in the base game. The first post has the complete list of the spell cards that were programmed into the base game (some of the stuff went unused until Plus Disk), complete with formulas and everything. I think the only spell card in that list that isn't actually used in either base or Plus is Rainbow Wing, which is a MT MYS spell card with a 176% MAG formula (ignores MND). Think that was used in the original game.

Dunno about the stuff that was added for Plus Disk.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on February 25, 2019, 10:12:12 AM
Anyone has any tips for The Destroyer? The only way I can do any damage is with Futo+Miko, and even then that's far from enough.

This is my team:
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on February 25, 2019, 01:35:44 PM
Oops. I forgot I have a separate folder for the base game and the expansion.

I updated the file. Same link. Also, that doesn't include character boss spellcards with the same name (i.e. boss Marisa's master spark is the same name as character Marisa's)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on February 25, 2019, 02:11:08 PM
Much appreciated,thank you

Do 30F touhous really regenerate? you mean i have to get to the next checkpoint in one go?  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on February 25, 2019, 02:20:34 PM
Anyone has any tips for The Destroyer? The only way I can do any damage is with Futo+Miko, and even then that's far from enough.
Flan might be able to do some work with a super drill and high buffs+debuffs. You might have trouble with both of the other extreme defense corridor superbosses too though, honestly... and they're kinda hard even with an appropriate party. Considering there's two more of these bosses coming, you might want to replace someone with a character that has 80~100% def/mnd piercing.

You can get by with just making a low investment in one or two such characters and swapping them in only for the boss fight, though. Making a moderate library investment for a 13th character without -really- pumping them up doesn't cost that much and more or less gets the job done.
Much appreciated,thank you

Do 30F touhous really regenerate? you mean i have to get to the next checkpoint in one go?  :V
Yes. Pretty sure you're meant to have a significantly higher level than them, especially if you want the treasures for beating all of 'em at once. It's good stuff, worth the hassle.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on February 25, 2019, 03:36:21 PM
I suppose I'll employ Rumia once again
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on February 25, 2019, 04:26:43 PM
Awakened Rumia is pretty solid, the success rates on her status/debuffs is nice and Large Piercing Attack makes Moonlight Ray comparable to Dark Side of the Moon on high mind bosses. And backup healing is always good.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on March 06, 2019, 11:10:41 PM
New update, mostly fixing all the overflow issues (and implementing number caps). Other than that:

-Remilia's base ATK growth has been increased by 1.0 (from 15 to 16), and her DEF and MND growth have both been increased by 1.6 (DEF goes from 9.8 to 11.4, MND goes from 9.6 to 11.2).

-Nitori's awakening skill "Improved Versatile Machine" now also increases Overheat's damage bonus by 5%  (so 20% per stack instead of 15%).

-Equipment stat bonuses are now shown in blue (which I guess makes it easier to tell it apart from the description).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on March 07, 2019, 04:55:01 AM
Nitori did not need an Overheat buff, wow.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on March 07, 2019, 01:20:05 PM
Oh, he's finally back.

Is there going to be another patch planned after this one? Or is this likely the last patch?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on March 07, 2019, 07:15:07 PM
Doesn't say anything about whether there'll be another patch or not, but it doesn't seem like there's any particular need for one at this point, as all that would be left is balance adjustments and minor bug fixes.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on March 10, 2019, 12:27:46 AM
I was mostly asking if there was planned content he hadn't ever gotten around to adding. I honestly can't remember if there was anything; it's been so long.

Updated exe:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=121cAVQgEFKFYpwu_vz4uBpd2bnnNmpZd

A lot of items have partially missing descriptions now.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on March 14, 2019, 01:09:13 AM
do multiple appraisers stack? i will guess no
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on March 14, 2019, 03:06:23 AM
iirc they do, actually

but it's way too much of a pain in the neck for a few % boost to swap everyone to appraisers. If you have characters you use PURELY for farming setups (rinnosuke, backline nazrin, awakened shou for metal kedamas) then go ahead and appraiser them.

Since it's been awhile, I've been opening up ThLaby2 back up to plunge 10~20 floors deeper beyond the end of the Infinite Corridor once every now and then. We'll see how long I actually keep doing this, when I have to start grinding to beat the bosses it's probably gonna get annoying fast, and there's still almost no actual fun at this point  :V

Is anyone actually playing significantly beyond endgame?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on March 15, 2019, 09:04:51 AM
Is anyone actually playing significantly beyond endgame?

I am^^ Currently trying to beat King, though even at Reimu level 5600 or so I still can't finish the boss before turn 15 (I'm getting close, though).

About appraising, I know it sounds tedious but it's definitely worth building a team solely for that purpose. My current plan is:

Reimu, Komachi, Kaguya, Utsuho, Sanae, Iku, Ran, Shou, Koishi

Even just using Reimu, Komachi, Shou and Sanae, the difference in terms of rewards compared to a setup without appraisers or reward-boosting skills is about 20% higher - which in the long term is a sizable boost.

Currently, I'm farming Fundoshi Dimension Couplers in the Infinite Corridor to equip each of the aforementioned chars (except Shou ofc^^ She's using Underworld Hammer Grond and Will of Gensokyo), then I train in B11F using only one character at a time and swapping them whenever they run out of mana (it's much more efficient than 30F I think, I can rack up around 3 billion gold per hour iirc)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Golbez on March 16, 2019, 08:21:00 PM
I stopped at the start of floor 28 a while back since i did not want want to miss any story. But recently I've been wanting to play it again. Is there any news about a story translation of the last floors? I may just continue playing anyhow :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on March 18, 2019, 04:10:13 PM
Hmm... leveling up after lv3500+ just gets slower and slower, and the corridor still isn't the best place to grind yet. That means the endgame leveling rate could approach something like an hour of grind or more for 100 levels with ideal Infinite Corridor setups... (which would not be particularly fast to set up)

I don't think 3peso is particularly planning any further patches, but I wonder if he would humor suggestions to increase Corridor's base enemy experience, or alternatively, add an effect to 30F's light pillar to remove the limit on consecutive battle bonus. I could get ~500 battles in a row on b11f if I felt like it, if the battle bonus didn't cap at 50 battles I could be getting enormous exp. And the corridor provides vastly higher battle streak potential. It'd be nice for an hour or two of grind to grant several hundred levels when the goal is grinding from 3000 to 13000 for the enhanced bosses...

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: elminster1372 on March 23, 2019, 02:02:08 PM
Dunno if others did so before me, but I playtested Kaguya's Lunar Ilmenite and, at rank 5, it procced 15 times over 170 turns, which seems to suggest a 10% chance. Considering the skill has 5 ranks, I wouldn't be surprised if it were a 2% proc chance per skill point.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on March 23, 2019, 11:27:49 PM
I had someone test for me, and it turns out Poison damage is dealt for a whole tick's worth of ATB even if the poison technically wore off 'earlier'. This means that, for example, against Enhanced Dragon God at lv12800 gaining over 20k atb a tick, poison deals ~13.3% max HP damage no matter who inflicted it.

Toxicologist Eirin with all of her passives reaches over 150% poison accuracy (not sure how much) plus Reisen's resist debuff, so you can poison just about any boss in the game reliably. So, if you really wanted to play past Enhanced Dragon God, poison eventually completely breaks the game. At lv20k+, a few procs of poison will kill almost any boss.

 :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on March 24, 2019, 06:11:45 PM
Gimme them hot Murakumo 3 tips. After months of on/off grind I'm just about ready to start working toward beating it. I already know its arms respawn on turn intervals of +1 each death but there's obviously a lot more than just that happening here.

Also super excited to see the translation project kicking back up. It's about time it was ironed out! Long time coming, that.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on March 24, 2019, 09:19:09 PM
Updated exe to add the item translations back in.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1E7WFy7lR-Mp8pz5VXNlA2WTcAxlrMyG4
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on March 24, 2019, 11:36:27 PM
Thanks as always Qaz! <3

Gimme them hot Murakumo 3 tips. After months of on/off grind I'm just about ready to start working toward beating it. I already know its arms respawn on turn intervals of +1 each death but there's obviously a lot more than just that happening here.
The arms do nasty stuff if you leave them alive too many turns, and Murakumo himself will drain someone's MP to heal himself. Attacking Murakumo with arms alive gets you hit with a nasty counter. One arm has huge def, the other has huge mnd.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on March 25, 2019, 06:03:54 PM
Gimme them hot Murakumo 3 tips. After months of on/off grind I'm just about ready to start working toward beating it. I already know its arms respawn on turn intervals of +1 each death but there's obviously a lot more than just that happening here.

This is what I ended up with after observing its AI for a few fights.

Did some more runs on 30f
Murakumo
to study its AI. This is what I've determined.

Living God: Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi
Random Actions: Magic Drain, Destroy Magic, Spirit Drain (halve TP), Destroy Spirit (TP to 0), Black Universe, Time-Space Warp, Golden Protection, World-Shaking Military Rule, Oracle of Sacred Mirror Dedication, Oracle of Eternal Heaven and Earth
Oracle of Eternal Heaven and Earth appears to be used more frequently when there are more debuffs present, which is how it worked in the 20 enhanced Murakumo fight, but it can be used when there are no debuffs present. Similarly, Oracle of Sacred Mirror Dedication can be used when Murakumo is at full health.

Turn 1: Random
Turn 2: Random
Turn 3: Godly Scarlet Gold Slash
Turn 4: Random
Turn 5: Random
Turn 6: Yakumo's Futsu no Mitami no Tsurugi
Turn 7: Random
Turn 8: Random
Turn 9: Great Destruction
Repeat Turn 1-8
Turn 9: Great Catastrophe
Repeat Turn 1-8
Turn 9: Great Despair (Frontline TP to 0)
Repeat (I haven't gone any further so I can't confirm if it does repeat or not)

Reviving Arms does not advance this pattern.

Living God's Right Arm:
Random Actions: Dividing Slash, Instant Death Attack

Turn 1: Random
Turn 2: Greatsword of Calamity
Turn 3: Random
Turn 4: Greatsword of Calamity
Turn 5: Random
Turn 6: Scythe of Calamity
Turn 7: Random
Turn 8: True Greatsword of Calamity
Turn 9: Random
Turn 10: World-Shaking Military Rule
Turn 11: Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi's Wild Dance
Repeat

Living God's Left Arm
Random Actions: Red Curse, Blue Curse, Purple Curse, Green Curse, Yellow Curse

Turn 1: Random
Turn 2: Storm of Light Particles
Turn 3: Random
Turn 4: Storm of Light Particles
Turn 5: Random
Turn 6: Great Tree that Descended from the Sky
Turn 7: Random
Turn 8: Shining Arrows from the Sky
Turn 9: Random
Turn 10: Magical Blast
Turn 11: MAG Up
Turn 12: Random
Repeat

When the Arms are defeated and revived, their AI pattern resets to the beginning.

I incorrectly observed the revival pattern, so I cut that out from the quote.

Probably the biggest issue, besides balancing attacking the Arms and Murakumo, is that guaranteed use of Yakumo's Futsu no Mitami no Tsurugi, which heals 1% of Murakumo's HP for every 1 MP it drains (drains half the target's MP). The first use isn't too bad since you're probably still working on racking up Arm kills, but uses after that have the potential to heal a huge amount of HP if you don't put a low MP character on the leftmost slot. Also, if you have difficulty defeating the Right Arm, then facing repeated Greatsword of Calamity uses can be very dangerous for such a long-term fight. Don't let it survive long enough to use True Greatsword of Calamity, that's basically an instant death attack. The Left Arm isn't very dangerous, and is also susceptible to PAR. PAR can help prevent Left Arm from acting right after Murakumo uses Great Destruction, which has the potential to be very dangerous with all of its MT attacks. Otherwise, its only notable attack is Shining Arrows from the Sky, which is just a decently strong MT attack. Right Arm has high DEF and average MND, vice versa for Left Arm. Right Arm is weak to NTR and SPI, Left Arm FIR and DRK. Murakumo has no weakness and resists SPI and DRK.

I neglected to mention it in the post I quoted, but Murakumo's Godly Scarlet Gold Slash and Yakumo's Tsurugi always target the leftmost slot, and so does Right Arm's (True) Greatsword of Calamity.

Ah yeah, also, defeating either Arm weakens Murakumo's counter, defeating Right Arm removes the DRK component, Left Arm the SPI component. Defeating both Arms turns Murakumo's Counter into a basic Direct Counter.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: RegalStar on March 25, 2019, 11:08:19 PM
The first post of the thread should change the link to 3peso's home page.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: General_Milky on March 30, 2019, 03:54:31 PM
I'm finally finished. 121 hours on file, level 2550 average, True Dragon God and Will of Gensokyo down.

What a ride that was... although I do have a long list of criticism about the late game I don't really care to repeat. That said, the game didn't end up being as tediously grindy as I feared. It took maybe four hours to level from 1700 to 2500. The majority of my recent playtime was actually spent pushing through dozens and dozen of IC floors, and if anywhere, that's where I'd say the game becomes a slog. Doubly so since more of the Abyss shadows are trivial.

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on April 01, 2019, 11:49:24 PM
Finally reached Ame V3 and at about floor 300 of the infinite corridee,guess time to grind again

It is bad my party is basically 'Flandre and 11 meatshields/supports' if she dies the battle is over

What game had the most 'bullcrap' moments overall between labyrinth 1 and 2?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on April 02, 2019, 12:16:17 PM
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aIcqcb_AMpOPrh-IJFM1AL-3kicbQvNw

Updated exe. Some more text fixes from RegalStar
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on April 05, 2019, 08:19:43 PM
Our resident crazy guy Elminster of the 255 winner kills made an LoT2 damage comparison chart to use! Although you should keep in mind it's scaled for like, lv8000, so it's mostly true at like 30F lv1k+ territory. Gives a decent idea overall though and is really useful for those lategame minmax players. (Maintenance users are vastly more powerful at all the other parts of the game than this, keep in mind)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uEFCxgRgcUqHhHA2-mVLbHXYV7sbS8AAtxYN5sncdmE/edit#gid=1654569910

All characters have the same monetary value of library investment, he didn't use any non-global EXP boosters so they levelled equally, they're all maxed on gems/jewels/high boosts/skill levels, etc. Family skills and other conditionals with numbers listed in brackets. There's probably a few more characters that could be colored green (for "conditional but huge damage boost that isn't in the calculation") but overall it's pretty well made and informative. MFW when Renko does more damage than Shikieiki even after maintenance loses almost all value for atk/mag boosting.

edit:I updated it with some more moves, updated damage formulas, and a list of the proportionate defense factor for every move (dang, Knockout pierces nearly as much defense as the likes of Kaguya/Iku/Utsuho)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Marbychu on April 05, 2019, 08:42:02 PM
Our resident crazy guy Elminster of the 255 winner kills made an LoT2 damage comparison chart to use! Although you should keep in mind it's scaled for like, lv8000, so it's mostly true at like 30F lv1k+ territory. Gives a decent idea overall though and is really useful for those lategame minmax players. (Maintenance users are vastly more powerful at all the other parts of the game than this, keep in mind)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/136YnIQU9MF1YbDd8CsFxAs4M0WQ4BzA6gHcJKmCFJGY/edit#gid=1752125517

All characters have the same monetary value of library investment, he didn't use any non-global EXP boosters so they levelled equally, they're all maxed on gems/jewels/high boosts/skill levels, etc. Family skills and other conditionals with numbers listed in brackets. There's probably a few more characters that could be colored green (for "conditional but huge damage boost that isn't in the calculation") but overall it's pretty well made and informative. MFW when Renko does more damage than Shikieiki even after maintenance loses almost all value for atk/mag boosting.

It's asking me to request permission to view, you might wanna double check to make sure you're sharing the link that lets people view it but not edit it, instead of the link that lets people edit it.

I don't know if that's actually the problem, but I work with Google Drive all the time and that link looks slightly different at the end than some of my links (mine tend to not have that "gid" thing and instead have "sharing" at the end)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on April 05, 2019, 09:14:42 PM
whoops fixed

I didn't even make this sheet or  upload it or anything but I guess google's stuff works really weird.

edit:I updated the sheet with some more moves, updated damage formulas, and a list of the proportionate defense factor for every move (dang, Knockout pierces nearly as much defense as the likes of Kaguya/Iku/Utsuho).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on May 16, 2019, 06:45:59 AM
Playing LoT1 again and back nearing the end of the Plus Disk floors, but I'm annoyed because for some reason not all the stars are obtained? I've got Game Cleared, 32 Allies Joined, 100 Items Collected, Blood Seals Purified, Enhanced Bosses Clear. I've done every Ver2 boss, including the boss rush and I beat Maribel version 2 also, and redoing Maribel (either version) nor resetting the game seem to fix the problem. At this rate I have to resort to using that 1 frame teleport glitch just to get through the area. Not sure what to do

EDIT: Nevermind, I'm actually blind and missed a Version 2 boss on a lower floor oof.
Consider this post a reminder that LoT1 is great though
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: athanasianGainsay on May 20, 2019, 06:29:58 AM
I've got a favor to ask. Back in 2014ish, I made a Charagraph pack for Laby 1 using the art from Laby 2. I've since lost that pack through multiple computer transitions and wanted to remake it now, but I no longer have the ripped character art *with transparency*. Does anyone have a copy of the transparent art they could share?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on May 20, 2019, 06:35:32 AM
I don't think so. Most of them are from before LoT2 was even released, though I might be wrong. I suppose I could check it out.

EDIT: I found it, from here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=16042.120): http://www.mediafire.com/file/5pnxoh24gv504rb/LoT2+CharaGraph+for+LoT1.rar

Also found this from here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16978.0.html): https://www.mediafire.com/file/t1v567p5sced1zl/Labyrinth+of+Touhou+Special+Disk+English+Patch+1.1.rar
Does this work for you? I still hope that somebody puts these in the first post...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: athanasianGainsay on May 20, 2019, 07:56:44 AM
You. Are. Magnificent. The transparency on Rumia, Youmu, etc. is intact. Thank you for taking the time to find this.

I remember cropping my own charagraph differently, so if anyone else has the unmodified images from LoT2 (the original raws back a few layers of quotes are a dead link), I'd still love those as well. I'll still be on the hunt and I guess I'll share them here if I find them.


EDIT: I gave up searching for the images online and read the thread backlog around Xarrizar's quote. Turned out that just extracting the images was extremely simple (don't ask me how to put them back). For anyone who feels like defacing innocent touhous, here's a new link for the transparent raws: https://mega.nz/#F!Y8BR2CIa!4trCakQsMy8DVwo96AoRUA (https://mega.nz/#F!Y8BR2CIa!4trCakQsMy8DVwo96AoRUA) Sorry if this is redundant and a replacement for the old link already exists.
For the curious or ambitious (or just in case I'm missing something in the link above), I just used this tool: http://himeworks.com/tools/dxextract/ (http://himeworks.com/tools/dxextract/) to extract the img.dxa files in the game directory.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: SupremeVictory on June 02, 2019, 03:45:36 AM
Couple of questions.  I played this game several years ago before my PC went down and started a new game.  I was on floor 8th if I recall.

1.  Should hard mode be played as a NG+ or is it ok to play it from scratch?

2.  Does the cheat engine table for the plus disk?  If so, how to apply values for it.  The table loads, but nothing works. 

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on June 10, 2019, 05:07:38 PM
Couple of questions.  I played this game several years ago before my PC went down and started a new game.  I was on floor 8th if I recall.

1.  Should hard mode be played as a NG+ or is it ok to play it from scratch?

2.  Does the cheat engine table for the plus disk?  If so, how to apply values for it.  The table loads, but nothing works. 

Thanks in advance.

Hard mode is perfectly doable in NG.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: xor on June 18, 2019, 09:49:25 AM
Couple of questions.  I played this game several years ago before my PC went down and started a new game.  I was on floor 8th if I recall.

1.  Should hard mode be played as a NG+ or is it ok to play it from scratch?

2.  Does the cheat engine table for the plus disk?  If so, how to apply values for it.  The table loads, but nothing works. 

Thanks in advance.
It *is* for the plus disk - it's just that I've found it goddamn impossible to find any pointers that work consistently across different operating systems. TLDR in programmer parlance: it works for me!  :smug:

I've dumped terabytes of automated scans, faffed about in half a dozen virtual machines and even tried stepping through the game in a debugger (something I'm terrible at because I have next to no experience coding at the bare metal in C and assembly language). It has been an absolute sod and refused to give me anything that works across multiple OSes; the pointers I've found also sometimes don't work because a butterfly flapped it's wings the wrong way. Yay memory allocation!  :derp:

Real life has had some stuff happening so I've pretty much had to abandon finishing this, I'm afraid. I've uploaded another cheat table that's removed all the pointers; you can use it with a little self-assembly. If anyone who's actually good at cheat table/using a debugger feels like fixing this table then be my guest.

Self-assembly instructions:

You'll have to re-find each of these addresses every time you launch the game because memory allocation.
https://www.mediafire.com/file/rxwb5y6wex9dmza/THLabyrinth2Plus_out-self-assembly.CT (https://www.mediafire.com/file/rxwb5y6wex9dmza/THLabyrinth2Plus_out-self-assembly.CT)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: IRUN on July 08, 2019, 06:31:26 AM
Just finished Rance IX and belatedly realised that Green Brute is basically Rance. This game is packed with RPG references.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on July 18, 2019, 09:17:08 PM
New update, with translated patch notes by Regalstar: https://pastebin.com/HiAegkp5

-Yuyuko's "The Mistress gets Serious" seems to be 30% more damage against >150 DTH resistant enemies (up from 15%), not sure about >100, but it's probably 20% (up from 10%).

-Patchy's Girl of Knowledge and Shade was originally "If affinity is 103 or greater, it counts as 100 + (affinity - 100) / 3", now after learning Infinite Repertoire it seems to change to "If affinity is 53 or greater, it counts as 50 + (affinity - 50) / 3"; this essentially allows Patchy to get a 50% damage boost against enemies with 100 elemental affinity and 20% against enemies with 66 affinity (piercing enemy affinity below 100 does not count as a weakness, for the purpose of stuff like Satori's damage boost).

-The last one seems to refer to stuff like Heavenly Kasen summoning level 200 ghosts, instead of level 1200 ones, not sure if it affects anyone but Abyss/Heavenly Kasen.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on July 19, 2019, 12:03:29 PM
https://drive.google.com/open?id=121cAVQgEFKFYpwu_vz4uBpd2bnnNmpZd

Updated exe for the new patch. There's some translations missing but nothing too important.

EDIT: updated again. This should fix some various missing strings and some very late bosses with overflowing text in their name.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Validon98 on August 20, 2019, 04:34:29 AM
Been getting back into LoT2 recently, just beat the regular final boss with a normal run of the game, just to refamiliarize myself with things before probably moving on to a synergy/limited run of some form that actually does everything like Team 9 did. The thought just crossed my mind though that since I already beat the game more or less fully other than some 30F stuff, I've felt kinda tired of having to reexplore the map every run. I then just realized that if you copy some of the data files into your save folders and rename them, you get 100% full map coverage on every floor in the game, with I think the only downside that on 21F prior to doing what you need to on B4F, you can encounter things normally (but encounter build-up is so slow there anyhow so it's not much of an actual problem). So in case anyone just wants to fully uncover all the maps, I've zipped up the necessary files. Just throw them into your save file folder and overwrite everything, and viola, full map coverage, no questions asked. Mainly just a thing for folks who've already played the game to death and don't want to fully uncover maps every playthrough (like I tend to, aha).

EDIT: Also, I dunno if it's been documented somewhere that I've missed, but does anyone know the actual rate/effect of the main equips that add status effects? And on top of that, are the rates/effect levels of status effect skills and equips like Ability to Surprise Humans and Strange Meat Pie stack on top of the existing rates/effect levels or are they calculated separately? I'm mainly just curious if you could, say, stack all those things on Kogasa to give her middle of the road TRR infliction rates a massive boost.

EDIT 2: ...Aaaand distressingly, I just discovered that Tokiko's Nameless Bookworm Youkai move outright does not work, despite very clearly fulfilling the conditions. Well, uh, that's worrisome and that kinda just kills a bit more of her tanking potential huh.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on August 21, 2019, 04:09:13 AM
Also, I dunno if it's been documented somewhere that I've missed, but does anyone know the actual rate/effect of the main equips that add status effects? And on top of that, are the rates/effect levels of status effect skills and equips like Ability to Surprise Humans and Strange Meat Pie stack on top of the existing rates/effect levels or are they calculated separately? I'm mainly just curious if you could, say, stack all those things on Kogasa to give her middle of the road TRR infliction rates a massive boost.

Status effect infliction chance and strength generally stack between spellcards, passive skills and items (eg. Eirin can reach 198% PSN rate by learning Lethal Poison Mixing, equipping the Midgard's Tooth, and using the Toxicologist's Poisonous Incense). The rate and effect of the passive skills was added to the wiki (they're all 25% infliction chance and 5000 strength), for the main equips that add statuses, I don't think anyone tested the status strength, but the infliction rates are 20% for PSN/HVY/SIL/TRR and 8% for SHK/DTH/PAR.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Validon98 on August 21, 2019, 04:27:23 AM
Oh wow, that's a lot higher than I thought. Then yeah, with all the potential factors merged together, Kogasa's got a 100% chance of inflicting Terror with A Rainy Night's Ghost Story. Including Sheer Force and having Reisen along for Intense Vertigo, that's a very solid chance.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 21, 2019, 05:50:27 AM
I'm playing LoT2 again myself, only this time I have plus disc available, but I'm just finding Postgame and early plus disc balance so weird still. There's so much to do, and my party seems totally unequipped to do anything even close to challenge level even when I'm like nearing 40 levels over it at least. Is there a generally agreed cutoff point between when I should have finished all postgame bosses and when I should have started my way through B1F? Randoms are still destroying me in the latter. Also I really dont get this game's obsession with bosses that have high regen, high hp and still do a ton of damage. Even in a full offensive build with full buffs on my star nukers some bosses regen too much too fast that I can't do it without specifically pumping up the attacks via library levels to insane levels (I've also tried not to abuse things like Maintenance Nitori like I did on my first runthrough). This game's lategame/postgame balance is just so awkward.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: zeroxtime62 on August 21, 2019, 01:40:00 PM
I think the postgame content is designed around the gambler subclass before it was nerfed but 3peso didn't nerf enemy stats which makes everything into a damage sponge that take little damage from many attacks. Level wise I think I was around 190 when I entered plus disk in my first playthrough but the bosses are doable at a lower level. Some people from the labyrinth threads like LonelyGaruga have done videos where they fight bosses with an average party level at the challenge level so you could try getting some ideas from their videos.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 21, 2019, 02:20:47 PM
Ah okay, thank you! Yeah I'm at about avg level 178 right now and just reached the Great C (who btw I'm probably not even liable to beat yet since my only notable MT NTR damage dealer is Kogasa lol so I'll need more), and going to be working through the rest of the Extra Areas.
Yeah I mean it's a real shame about these balance issues, I'd rather have enemies and bosses that are trivialised by Gambler but serviceable without than have enemies and bosses that are accounting for Gambler strats and end up fucking ridiculous without. I feel like I have to pump stats like crazy and yet there still won't ever be enough level points to go between offensive and defensive stats to satisfy what the game is asking of me. LoT1's post game was so much simpler lol, even the bosses didn't require insane strats to get through, just smart stat building and if you didn't, grinding a bit more to make it easier wasn't hard either.

Although in other general LoT2 news I've been trying out enhanced normal attack build Iku and it's genuinely amazing, she's easily my star damage dealer to general enemies when nobody else is hitting weakness. She can be doing 130k on a weakness to an enemy that is taking 0-1 from everyone else lol. She basically 1 shots all the 20F depths minibosses, which makes grinding a breeze.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 21, 2019, 11:31:23 PM
The Great "C" was my least favorite boss due to how random it was (nothing stops it from using Black Universe > "C" Falling from the Sky for a guaranteed KO on a character) so I used an inconsistent SHK locking method with Iku to bypass the invincible levels of DEF/MND it has on the first turn, but if you're just aiming to clear it AoE Poison works. Outside of Black Universe, the damage is fairly low. Now that Strategist and Transcendent's damage reducing effects are working as of one of the more recent updates (unbelievable how they weren't working before), you could use those to help alleviate the damage it does while whittling away with Poison.

What kind of party layout are you working with for it presently? It's kinda slow, but even two Toxicologists could do it as long as you're on top of the damage it does.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 22, 2019, 01:39:34 AM
What kind of party layout are you working with for it presently? It's kinda slow, but even two Toxicologists could do it as long as you're on top of the damage it does.
Running front line - Byakuren/Kogasa/Remilia/Iku
Reserves - Hina/Reimu/ Mokou/Shikieiki/Sanae/Rumia/Alice/Suika
For the most part, just trying to run people I never really used the first time (with the exception of Reimu and Byakuren, but most importantly means I'm not running Kasen or Nitori). Sanae and Shikieiki havent had any notable stat investments yet as they're new investments so they're lagging behind.  Only Toxicologist in my part at the moment is Alice (who I only just subbed as one so she's got no Skill Points in any of the skills yet lol. Maybe I'll sub in Wriggle or Mystia for this fight to make it easier. My Kogasa can do like upwards of 150k per hit with buffs and it hits all but somehow it's still not really enough to put a huge dent in half of them. Damage isn't a problem for any of my front-liners really unless of course the boss uses the MND ignoring attack.

EDIT: Okay, Great C is finally down, thank god. had 2 resurrections to deal with, so long winded.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 26, 2019, 03:01:28 AM
So is the balance in Plus content going to remain like this? Or does it actually even out eventually and become manageable. Because B1F so far (and its tri-boss fight) are still following the trend of low level requirements with absolutely sky-high stats. Really not sure how to feasibly progress without just grinding even more levels (at party avg 200 now) and beating them in raw stats. I have people who can soak up damage like it's nothing (Hina/Byakuren(though that's more because her Regen helps her survivability so much) and people who can damage like crazy (Iku, most of the time Kogasa/Suika too) but nobody can do the other person's job either so I end up with no damage dealers because they all die and then just left with tanks who hit for 0s fairly reg (Byaku is starting to deal somewhat solid damage sometimes though but never enough to outpace getting fucked over).

For the record, I've got mostly offensive builds on my attackers and some somewhat split defensive builds on my tanks (with preference towards HP if any). If I'm just straight up not putting my bonuses into the right places someone please tell me because any chance to make this easier outside of giving up and cheesing the game with OP specced Maintenance Nitori would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Arcvasti on August 26, 2019, 06:26:10 AM
I generally just put a character's level's worth of library points into all their stats and it seems to work fine. The only stuff you have to overlevel for is some of the postgame stuff like shredding amnisieri, the plus disc is quite easy comparatively, at least until the plus disc's own postgame.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 26, 2019, 07:15:01 AM
Well at this point in time I have basically all my most used people sitting comfortably at character level = library level defensive stats, if not a bit more, and I'm still struggling a lot lol. Not sure how I'm supposed to make any sort of leeway on this triple boss since all three just destroy me, even when I gave everyone more specialised level bonuses in defensive stats.

I've got everything of the postgame out of the way now though except for Enhanced Murakumo, so there's all that headache done thankfully.

EDIT: Okay finally they're down, onwards to B2F now.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on August 27, 2019, 06:21:10 AM
Plus Disc's content is pretty different from the base game in that the bosses are generally much more offensively threatening, but are also a lot more fragile. The Shadow boss fights in particular tend to have very severe weaknesses, a lot of 50 and even 25 affinity ratings abound. So besides the fact that their HP is lower due to there being multiple bosses, they also take more damage.

As far as levels go, I used a set of rules based on Hard Mode's where I used Iku as the average level to meet the Challenge Level and adjusted everyone else's level based on the EXP Iku needed. For library level I used Iku's level * 1.2 for everyone, with affinity being bumped up to about the same library cost. It was a bit looser than Hard Mode's restrictions, but still a self-imposed challenge, and I was able to do everything in Plus Disc following these rules.  Rather than level, it's strategy and equipment that are more important. The bosses are indeed balanced for their recommended levels, but without proper preparation each boss will be monumentally harder than it otherwise would be. This might be especially the case for Plus Disc, since bosses generally have a higher offensive presence than the main game.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on August 27, 2019, 07:06:32 AM
I think part of it is also that I'm avoiding relying on a notably large set of characters too who may be useful in these situations (Kasen, Nitori, Kanako, Meiling, Sakuya (though I guess she doesn't seem like she'd be nearly as good in plus) who all have both great bulk and great offensive potential.  I wanted to increase character variety and play around with new people as my last playthrough I used those 5 to basically destroy the entire game (alongside Byakuren but she's not an offensive powerhouse so I don't feel as bad bringing her along a second time). As strategies become clearer though it is getting easier so I like to think it's only going to get better thankfully. It's just a really weird transition from maingame to postgame/plus imo.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on September 01, 2019, 06:34:41 AM
So I just beat Mamizou, and I figure now's a good time to ask. Are any of the Plus characters worth introducing into a party? It's a bit of a timesink now to invest in someone from scratch, and like majority of the Plus chars are also very gimmicky in playstyle. I can see myself investing in Shou in the future for grinding purposes, but if people could give general opinions on how they actually play in practice I'd love to hear. Mamizou for example looks good on paper but if she's actually not that great I'd not really bother trying.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on September 01, 2019, 07:53:20 AM
Tokiko is very strong (not Nitori levels but she's about Tenshi level), albeit limited in her attack options, while Akyuu is one of the best support characters once you get access to Awakening from the Infinite Corridor. Akyuu isn't available until defeating Plus Disc's final story boss though, she's the very last character. I don't have any comments about the other characters. I used Miko, but only because her Awakening has an effect from the back row, barely actually made use of her.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on September 02, 2019, 02:33:07 AM
Miko gets really solid stats from maintennance (although not busted nitori stats) and some nice passive bonuses for the party, and her awakening really kicks ass. She's difficult to use pre-awakening though. Futo is also fairly good post-awakening. Kokoro is OK, she's nothing too special but her damage is fine. Mamizou can do some good gimmick stuff and can be tweaked to always hit weakness, but she falls off as ATB starts rising too fast for her Fast Normal Attack passive to help. Koishi/Shou just have really underwhelming stats, but Shou can grind at least. Shou also recently got buffed to be a bit less garbage, but she's still pretty bad.

Akyuu is incredibly good support post-awakening. Would recommend. She's got resurrection on crack and after you pump her with boosts/gems, she's actually got top class stats too due to that MEGA cheap library cost. Viable for hybrid offensive build but I wouldn't particularly recommend it after Ultra Incantation got nerfed.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on September 02, 2019, 07:34:12 AM
Ah okay, thank you both! Yeah, I put some minor investment into Mamizou already and tried to extra invest in Shou's ATK to see if I could at least use her for minor grinding, but Radiant Treasure Gun still doesn't really do decent damage even after a buff from Iku. So I might just bench them for now.

This Futo fight really fucking hard though, I'm nearing 50 levels above challenge level and I see absolutely no sign of being able to get past it any time soon. The other fights before it were all doable with strategy, but I really can't see how to break past this one, especially with the huge elements of RNG it entails. EDIT: Although, Yuugi can take off a notable chunk of health with KOi3S, so maybe with extra investment I can use her to smash Futo to bits. Here's hoping.

(also a side note but still a lot of plus disc floors and other plus disc content are missing info on the wiki)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on September 02, 2019, 08:47:18 AM
Yeah the second Futo fight is the most brutal fight in Plus Disc's main game. The main thing is when she raises her plate stack to 10, she'll followup with either buffing herself or healing herself based on how many plates she has. When she raises the plate count try to attack her as much as possible, it doesn't matter how much damage you do, just get that plate count down as rapidly as you can to minimize how much she buffs/heals herself. That's what I did anyway, helped a lot. Futo has pretty low attack power for a Plus Disc boss, but when she buffs herself her new damage + speed just runs over parties if she gets too strong, that's the most dangerous part of the fight.

Ah I should probably be specific, but when I say "followup", I don't mean right away, just she's going to do that soon.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Validon98 on September 02, 2019, 01:48:00 PM
As part of the recent plus disk run I've decided to slap in all of the Plus Disk characters that otherwise don't fit in with another synergy, so everyone but Shou and Koishi (ironically, also  the worst of the Plus Disk characters). I uh, happened to find a very early Tokugawa Statue on 11F of the Infinity Corridor, so that's been permanently grafted to Miko. +24 MP/TP and +2.4 to all base stats is... extremely scary.

Otherwise, party for the Plus Disk is currently as follows:

Kogasa, Reisen, Kasen, Yuugi, Minoriko, Sanae (to be replaced by Akyuu after 26F), Iku, Futo, Miko, Mamizou, Kokoro, Tokiko

Kogasa's MVP as always, Yuugi is still absurd and I've decided to give her Murakumo (I was considering Kogasa but Kogasa wants to be using her own spells for her awakening bonuses, plus Sheer Force means that she doesn't really need to care about resistances as much), Miko is currently insane and I haven't even given her her awakening yet, Reisen is still debuffer extreme, Minoriko and Sanae's support has been invaluable, Iku's defense piercing has been really helpful in the original post game, and I'm still trying to find some use from the other Plus disk characters, but I'll find it.

Also, the fight vs. Shadow Renko and Maribel was hilarious, and ended up with Minoriko, alone, slowly plinking down Maribel because oops her Mind is so high even without putting any level bonuses into it that she was functionally immortal against Maribel's attacks.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on September 02, 2019, 02:42:46 PM
Finally made it through Futo, a Yuugi with KOi3S + Herb of Awakening + Mari's DIY boost can hit like a freaking truck. I nailed at least one 3 mil hit on Futo, and several 2 mils, lol.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on September 02, 2019, 03:26:02 PM
Finally made it through Futo, a Yuugi with KOi3S + Herb of Awakening + Mari's DIY boost can hit like a freaking truck. I nailed at least one 3 mil hit on Futo, and several 2 mils, lol.
Just FYI, boost effects like Herb of Awakening, Maribel's DIY, Akyuu's Miare's Great Knowledge and Grand/Super Incantation don't stack with each other, the most recent one overwrittes any previous boosts.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Slayernice on September 10, 2019, 09:29:28 PM
So when I start up the game, it opens in a window and crashes after a few seconds of black screen, anyone know what's causing this? :'(

Edit: Nevermind, I'm an idiot who forgot to change my computer region settings to japanese, it works like a charm now!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on September 19, 2019, 10:40:45 AM
How do I reach 28F and B11F?
I took out the Hollow Yamata-no-Orochi, but nothing seems to have happened
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Validon98 on September 19, 2019, 08:19:14 PM
Taking out the Hollow Yamata-no-Orochi is how you unlock the path to 28F. The rock in front of the stairs up should be cleared.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on October 02, 2019, 03:50:09 AM
I seem to be missing 2 shadow fragments so I can't seem to make my way to 25F yet. I'm 99% sure I've done every shadow boss battle listed on the wiki in the basement floors (up to B7F), what am I missing?

EDIT: Nvm, there's a battle on B7F not yet mentioned on the wiki with the SDM crew.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on October 09, 2019, 04:00:38 AM
How do i reach the circled area on B9F? I know it has a pit nearby but I seem to have explored all of B8F already and B10F is blocked by killing the big bad of 27F? Which I can't reach without 56 fragments (only have 52 and I know there's 2 more waiting with Shadow Rei/Mari)?
[attach=1]


Other than that, I mean the Plus disk has been reasonably enjoyable. Level progression still is very thrown out of the window and balance still feels out of wack like nobody's business. Not sure if I'm just overlevelled upon reaching half of the things but then I say that and get obliterated by random mobs the next floor up or down, so it's very weird.
Byakuren is a legitimate lifesaver and has soloed 2 entire Plus bosses by now thanks to the fact that she is nigh-unkillable and can manage some damage against most bosses. Yuugi is also a huuuuuuge powerhouse and has basically been the one to be killing all bosses doing like 3mil per KoI3S on average, sometimes going as high as 7mil when hitting weaknesses. Everyone else has minor situational use on bosses but otherwise is expendable there, and can have decent mob killing potential.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on October 09, 2019, 04:59:18 AM
Should be from B8f, the top right corner.

https://i.imgur.com/gJJcDvO.png
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on October 09, 2019, 05:29:20 AM
Ah thank you so much, yeah I forgot about that because I did remember going up there but must've forgotten that I went up when I didn't have enough dark fragments. Thank you :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on October 24, 2019, 04:29:19 AM
Well I'm currently undertaking the big grindwall, nearing average level 850. Got a good front line for B11F grinding at least.

So 2 main questions I guess, firstly, how do I remove the red rocks on B11F and 30F?

Secondly, I'm interested in opinions for who are good endgame party members, the people I definitely don't want to replace right now are Yuugi, Meiling, Reimu, Iku and probably Yuyuko too (all awakened), I've invested a lot into Byakuren but at this point I could be okay with cutting her off. I've also awakened Remilia, Reisen, Yuuka and Kanako since they were in my party too.
I'm not fully sure who is going to come out on top after the inflation starts to set in but I know that some of the party members I have now won't scale super well soon enough. So I'm keen to hear opinions?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on October 24, 2019, 06:43:53 AM
I think the condition for the B11f rock is to beat all of the 29f bosses,
***WINNER***
, and the 250f Infinite Corridor boss. The condition for the 30f rock is to hit a switch at the very end of B11f. If you're curious, there is
no
boss in B11f.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Libra on October 24, 2019, 06:03:23 PM
Secondly, I'm interested in opinions for who are good endgame party members, the people I definitely don't want to replace right now are Yuugi, Meiling, Reimu, Iku and probably Yuyuko too (all awakened), I've invested a lot into Byakuren but at this point I could be okay with cutting her off. I've also awakened Remilia, Reisen, Yuuka and Kanako since they were in my party too.
I'm not fully sure who is going to come out on top after the inflation starts to set in but I know that some of the party members I have now won't scale super well soon enough. So I'm keen to hear opinions?
From those characters, the ones that aren't that good are Remilia, Byakuren and Yuuka, they just lose a lot of her appeal once their high base stats stop being that relevant, and self-buffs are also not as important when you have enough MP to have your buffers spam their buffs. Yuyuko could be better, but with the recent buffs I'd say she's at least alright. Good endgame damage dealers include Nitori, Utsuho or Suika, some other chars can also deal great damage but might require a bit more setup (like Kogasa or Kasen); for tanks Renko is really good due to Maintenance and even more so if you use Maribel too, and Mokou is generally pretty reliable though she lacks a bit of support. Akyuu is a fantastic support character due to her damage buff, and Sanae is a good option due to her buffs/heals and MP regen. Eirin is really busted in Plus with her overheals too. Just a bunch of suggestions off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Myosotis on November 06, 2019, 04:11:47 AM
decided to get back to this game, made a cheat engine table to disable attack animations and also the transition animation to get into battles faster (the latter also disables the battle music, I won't try to fix it as I play without music anyway).

I'd upload the .exe so cheat engine isn't required, but I made some other changes to my .exe as well so meh.
Might consider putting the disabled animations into the .exe and upload it, if theres any interest for it in the first place

https://a.uguu.se/R7Oh6xNpcrMo_THLabyrinth2Plus_out.CT
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on November 08, 2019, 01:00:47 AM
I still cant beat living god ame no murakumo,his stupid arms regenerate too fast and even when they are out of the picture he can counter my hits and snipe flandre dead  :V

maybe i should built my party from the ground up again,feels like only four or five are doing all the heavy lifting
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on November 08, 2019, 04:43:11 AM
maybe i should built my party from the ground up again,feels like only four or five are doing all the heavy lifting
I mean, this is pretty much how I've done all of Plus, it's definitely possible, albeit feeling cheesy.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on November 08, 2019, 07:20:11 AM
I still cant beat living god ame no murakumo,his stupid arms regenerate too fast and even when they are out of the picture he can counter my hits and snipe flandre dead  :V

Each time one of the arms gets taken out, it takes an additional turn to regenerate. While an arm is down, the counterattack is weakened and there's a chance it won't counter (I think it's something like a 50-75% rate of countering with one arm). If you get both arms down, then it becomes a basic single-target counterattack and the odds are further reduced. Basic strategy I found to work best is to just focus on the Right Arm since it has max HP depleting attacks, and whenever you attack Murakumo directly, make sure that your party can survive the counterattack. It's a slow and methodical fight, took me 25 minutes on my successful run of it. But it shouldn't be too difficult for Flandre to survive it if you bump her SPI affinity to 400+ via equipment and set her up to be a bulky attacker, since HP and affinity matter a lot more than DEF/MND in Plus Disk, and Flandre has pretty solid HP. The fight definitely favors bulky attacking builds since you're constantly eating counterattacks, gotta be able to tank them and heal up.

Turn counting is a pretty big part of the fight too. Murakumo follows a 9 turn script (revives do not add to its turn count), and every 6th turn it is guaranteed to use Yakumo's Futsu no Mitami no Tsurugi on the leftmost slot of your party. IIRC it's 1% HP regen for every 1 MP it drains, so you're looking at a potential 30% or more regeneration if you don't ensure that the character in that slot at the time of the attack has low MP. Because of that, you're best off ignoring Murakumo at the start of the fight until after it uses that attack, and instead focus on defeating the Right Arm as many times as you can to create bigger attack windows later into the fight. This is what I determined the AI to look like.

Did some more runs on 30f
Murakumo
to study its AI. This is what I've determined.

Living God: Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi
Random Actions: Magic Drain, Destroy Magic, Spirit Drain (halve TP), Destroy Spirit (TP to 0), Black Universe, Time-Space Warp, Golden Protection, World-Shaking Military Rule, Oracle of Sacred Mirror Dedication, Oracle of Eternal Heaven and Earth
Oracle of Eternal Heaven and Earth appears to be used more frequently when there are more debuffs present, which is how it worked in the 20 enhanced Murakumo fight, but it can be used when there are no debuffs present. Similarly, Oracle of Sacred Mirror Dedication can be used when Murakumo is at full health.

Turn 1: Random
Turn 2: Random
Turn 3: Godly Scarlet Gold Slash
Turn 4: Random
Turn 5: Random
Turn 6: Yakumo's Futsu no Mitami no Tsurugi
Turn 7: Random
Turn 8: Random
Turn 9: Great Destruction
Repeat Turn 1-8
Turn 9: Great Catastrophe
Repeat Turn 1-8
Turn 9: Great Despair (Frontline TP to 0)
Repeat (I haven't gone any further so I can't confirm if it does repeat or not)

Reviving Arms does not advance this pattern.

Living God's Right Arm:
Random Actions: Dividing Slash, Instant Death Attack

Turn 1: Random
Turn 2: Greatsword of Calamity
Turn 3: Random
Turn 4: Greatsword of Calamity
Turn 5: Random
Turn 6: Scythe of Calamity
Turn 7: Random
Turn 8: True Greatsword of Calamity
Turn 9: Random
Turn 10: World-Shaking Military Rule
Turn 11: Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi's Wild Dance
Repeat

Living God's Left Arm
Random Actions: Red Curse, Blue Curse, Purple Curse, Green Curse, Yellow Curse

Turn 1: Random
Turn 2: Storm of Light Particles
Turn 3: Random
Turn 4: Storm of Light Particles
Turn 5: Random
Turn 6: Great Tree that Descended from the Sky
Turn 7: Random
Turn 8: Shining Arrows from the Sky
Turn 9: Random
Turn 10: Magical Blast
Turn 11: MAG Up
Turn 12: Random
Repeat

When the Arms are defeated and revived, their AI pattern resets to the beginning.

Keep the Right Arm down, prepare to tank the counterattacks and heal the damage off quickly, and keep track of where Murakumo and the Left Arm are at in their AI scripts to avoid getting into bad situations where you're eating a counter + a heavy attack from the Left Arm, and you should be good to go. Pay extra attention to when Murakumo is about to use Yakumo's Futsu no Mitami no Tsurugi or Great Destruction/Catastrophe. You especially don't want to see Great Destruction followed by an action from the Left Arm, since every action it takes besides MAG Up  hits the whole frontline, so you can see an instant wipe if the timing is bad. The Left Arm is susceptible to PAR, which can help avoid these troublesome scenarios.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: DarkAtma on November 08, 2019, 02:42:36 PM
I will try this tactic sometime soon,the grinding has been nothing but mind numbing at this point just having 3 monk frontliners almost one shotting B11F mobs

many thanks

EDIT:looking back at LoT1 i believe there was a patch after 3.01? i recall it fixed meiling iron mountain effects and some other things,did that really existed or i am going crazy?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on November 10, 2019, 04:23:38 PM
EDIT:looking back at LoT1 i believe there was a patch after 3.01? i recall it fixed meiling iron mountain effects and some other things,did that really existed or i am going crazy?

I don't think there was ever an official patch, but I did release a new translation patch that re-added the missing effects. Meiling's spell graphic was one (and I think it was also used in another character spell but I can't remember which) and I think also a graphic for one of Youmu's spells.

It also fixed the level goddess calling Rinnosuke a Lady. There may have been other changes but I can't remember what.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on November 10, 2019, 05:31:43 PM
Meiling's spell graphic was one (and I think it was also used in another character spell but I can't remember which)
Mountain Breaker, Miracle Fruits, and maybe Virtue of Wind God? And then the other was Youmu's Slash of Eternity.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on November 17, 2019, 03:15:33 PM
Phew, finally managed to work my way down to floor 100 and awaken both Flandre and Nitori on my way.
Next up is taking down the Dragon God and making progress with the main floors!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Woo hoo lol on November 27, 2019, 05:38:26 PM
Anyone know where I can find translation patches and character models? I've just defeated dragon god, though his model was missing. Any dialogue before the fight was missing as well. Some other models were missing as well, such as hollow orochi's and massive kedama's. Some of the sounds are missing too, but I don't really mind that too much.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on November 28, 2019, 02:31:21 AM
Anyone know where I can find translation patches and character models? I've just defeated dragon god, though his model was missing. Any dialogue before the fight was missing as well. Some other models were missing as well, such as hollow orochi's and massive kedama's. Some of the sounds are missing too, but I don't really mind that too much.

That sounds like you didn't download the official Japanese patch from 3peso's website before applying the English translation.

Try downloading the file from here: https://n-e-studio.com/
either the Axfc Uploader or Filestorage link on the main page. Then re-apply the English patch.

I'm not sure if that'll fix missing dialog. It certainly won't be in English; the translation isn't complete.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Woo hoo lol on November 28, 2019, 03:14:46 PM
Thank you!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Faultdron on January 16, 2020, 11:44:47 PM
3peso posted a screenshot of a skill tree earlier this month. Seems like he's working on the new LoT?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Serela on January 17, 2020, 12:30:16 AM
Oh woah, that... actually does look like a new LoT?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENbwMUSVUAAqo1l?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on January 17, 2020, 12:33:28 AM
I was under the impression that it was a special disk, similar to that of the first game, but somebody corrected me by posting a Tweet of 3peso's in which he was answering to someone, saying it's a new game.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Gesh86 on January 17, 2020, 12:06:55 PM
Nice! I wonder if 3peso will utilize the possibility of bringing it to Steam. I'm sure it would sell impressively.

Character artwork looks like the LoT2 artist was kept on board, which I strongly approve of.

I was under the impression that it was a special disk, similar to that of the first game, but somebody corrected me by posting a Tweet of 3peso's in which he was answering to someone, saying it's a new game.

 General look is indeed so similar that one could first mistake for another expansion.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on January 17, 2020, 08:59:48 PM
Nice. The skill shown in the image grants a temporary HP regen effect to Reimu's Great Hakurei Barrier, looks like there's going to be even more character customization and effects than before. The skill tree is labeled "Personal/Inherent Skill Tree" so there'll probably be subclasses with their own skill trees again.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on January 18, 2020, 12:11:35 AM
I quite like where this is going.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: isanomi on January 20, 2020, 06:05:28 AM
Hello, can someone help help me with plus disk? For some reason the text always got cut off if it's a long one, both in and out of dialogue

(https://i.imgur.com/jJ6zzKA.png)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: qazmlpok on January 20, 2020, 01:26:46 PM
Hello, can someone help help me with plus disk? For some reason the text always got cut off if it's a long one, both in and out of dialogue

(https://i.imgur.com/jJ6zzKA.png)
Are you running in Japanese locale? I can't remember for certain but that might have been the issue. Either that or a missing font.

Also, as a heads up, even if you fix it there will still be some text flowing off screen, since the English patch isn't well polished. Everything in your screenshot is fixable, though.

Nice! I wonder if 3peso will utilize the possibility of bringing it to Steam. I'm sure it would sell impressively.

From reading his twitter, he's planning on releasing LoT2 on steam. This will include a Chinese translation and (I think) a "high resolution version". I haven't seen any mention of an official English release, but I'm optimistic on the grounds that if you go through the effort to translate to one different language, you might as well add on another.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: isanomi on January 20, 2020, 01:41:14 PM
Are you running in Japanese locale? I can't remember for certain but that might have been the issue. Either that or a missing font.

Also, as a heads up, even if you fix it there will still be some text flowing off screen, since the English patch isn't well polished. Everything in your screenshot is fixable, though.

Yes, I did, the weird thing is even the text from the Japanese version also got cut off

(https://i.imgur.com/c78sZ6c.png)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Golbez on January 20, 2020, 08:12:04 PM
What worked for me was changing the locale for non-unicode to Japanese, that dropdown in the picture. But perhaps that' s what you tried already. Now strangely when I put it back to English after I had it in Japanese for a year it stays neatly lined up, so I'm not sure anymore. Keep in mind that if it is set to Japanese, you may see slashes in folder path displays replaced with Yen signs sometimes.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: isanomi on January 20, 2020, 08:44:56 PM
What worked for me was changing the locale for non-unicode to Japanese, that dropdown in the picture. But perhaps that' s what you tried already. Now strangely when I put it back to English after I had it in Japanese for a year it stays neatly lined up, so I'm not sure anymore. Keep in mind that if it is set to Japanese, you may see slashes in folder path displays replaced with Yen signs sometimes.

Thank you, however, I tried your method and sadly, it doesn't seem to work...
It's weird because last time I played this game, I didn't have a problem like this at all
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Faultdron on January 21, 2020, 06:54:58 AM
Oh nice, he posted more stuff.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EOpQs1eU0AEMBdR?format=jpg&name=large)

Good to finally see ACC on the stat page. Also I guess LoT3 will have MP cost overhaul again with Reimu having 80 MP at that level. That or it's just for testing purpose.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on January 21, 2020, 07:28:36 PM
Reimu's TP went down from 16 to 12...and that SPD stat looks like there might have been an overhaul in how SPD scales, it's way too high relative to Labyrinth of Touhou 2. Could also be for testing purposes though. It's hard to tell how much equipment is influencing Reimu's stats, but she does have less ATK at that level than in Labyrinth of Touhou 2.

Also I hope that isn't her base accuracy, less than 100 is kinda eh...probably is though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Gesh86 on January 24, 2020, 11:44:31 AM
From reading his twitter, he's planning on releasing LoT2 on steam. This will include a Chinese translation and (I think) a "high resolution version". I haven't seen any mention of an official English release, but I'm optimistic on the grounds that if you go through the effort to translate to one different language, you might as well add on another.

I wonder if it's DLSite that would handle publishing. They have always included English translations so far. With how much the fandom over there has grown these last few years, it's understandable that Chinese has a high, perhaps even higher demand than English (don't know if anyone has ever made an unofficial Chinese translation patch).
Next to Tenjou no Tempest and Gensou Skydrift, LoT2 is among the few fangames I love so much I would buy a re-release of it. If they go through the effort of packaging that translation, of course.
Would finally get around to learning the story bits of 28F and onward, then...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on January 26, 2020, 05:51:46 AM
Sometime recently he also updated the text on his Twitter name to say "Touhou Labyrinth 3 - In Development". I forget exactly when it happened, but for literally anybody who had the tiniest bit of doubt, there you go.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Thurler on January 26, 2020, 05:17:04 PM
So this is going to be a mild tangent here, what with all the Labyrinth 3 talk, but I recently finished routing a speedrun for this game up until the first 20F Murakumo fight, and figured you guys would enjoy hearing about it and watching videos of such a run. If you're unfamiliar with the concept, you start from a New Game and try to beat the game (or in this case, a specific goal) as fast as possible. Because the fun you get from this type of run is finishing the game fast, rather than having long and difficult boss battles, some very cheesy strats are employed, including:


The final boss is beaten at Reimu Lv55, so the cheesy strats are pretty much mandatory to ensure there's as little grinding as possible. We also skip many optional characters since they don't offer a significant advantage to any fights that would justify going out of our way to get them. Currently I skip: Kogasa, Kaguya, Mystia, Nazrin, Yuugi, Meiling, Alice, Patchouli, Eirin, Suika, Ran, Flandre, Byakuren, and Eiki. To make sure I stay somewhat decently levelled throughout the game I do small grinding sessions after exploring each floor to get some consecutive battles EXP and money bonus, and that seemed to work fine for most floors. I also get almost every treasure chest to acquire the 256 chests achievement, which gives you 50k money.

Right now the run is very unoptimized, there's unnecessary equipment going to a few characters, there are unnecessary treasure chests being collected, and overall menuing speed can be improved drastically. There's also the random AI factor in boss fights making me carefully think about what I'm supposed to do, rather than just adapt instantly to what happens. This will be developed with time, but what I have now works as a proof of concept. As far as RNG goes, there are some RNG heavy sections, particularly the bosses that require DTH to proc and the entirety of stratum 5's [optional] bosses. Yuuka, Yuyuko and Yukari are no joke.

I have 2 finished runs so far, and they've given me some feedback on what could be improved with my current strategies, so I'll rework some sections to try to save some time. Both runs are under 10 hours in real time, and are very close to a flat 9 hours in game time. The first run is a segmented run, I played 1 or 2 stratums each day and stitched together the segments' times to present it as a full run, clocking in at 9h55 real time and 9h16 game time. The second run is a single segment run, played through the entire thing in one sitting (and lost an entire day in my weekend  :V), clocking in at 9h56 real time and 9h03 game time. There are videos for both of them below if you guys want to watch. The single segment run has my (somewhat poor attempt at) live commentary if you're (not) into that.

Segmented run: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3eHe2wxlYthwfDU034a04rrQhHcN_bQ5
Single segment run: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/541762929?t=00h05m33s
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on February 03, 2020, 08:20:46 PM
I've been watching the single segment run off and on, made it past the Remilia + Sakuya fight so far. I get the impression that it might be faster/more consistent to blitz battles with fast setups and return to Gensokyo / repeat instead of trying to aim for consecutive bonuses, mainly in the grind segments where battles are more difficult. Otherwise I don't have any comments about optimizing the run more. This stuff is cool, but not my area of expertise at all, and not something I would personally try to do. Hopefully there are others that would be more helpful toward discussing the run.

--

Another update on Labyrinth of Touhou 3, main equipment page.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPxY8NEUYAElCTb?format=jpg&name=large)

Main equipment appears to be personalized as well, along with having an upgrade tree. The equipment shown, something like "Protective Charm", grants a skill "Fire Element Damage Increase Lv 3", along with various stat boosts typical of main equipment. Reimu's affinities are also all changed except for Mystic and Dark, most notably is Physical is now 90 instead of 110. Status resistances also seem to be totally overhauled, Reimu has 100+ for all status effects. Seems Reimu's base MP really is 80 too, so MP appears to have been overhauled after all. One of her sub equipment items is "Life Fragment+10", either that's the actual name of the equipment or there's an upgrade system for sub equipment as well. There's also a +4 added to her Attack stat's name, unclear why that is.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on February 14, 2020, 02:17:14 AM
Considering the state of this iteration of the forum and it's impending end, I've archived the first post of this thread and all the links (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11e2MS6q90gUg3DDgYa3A0HbSfzXbmR4jBnoQXMolH0g/edit?usp=sharing), including reups of all the files that were hosted on this site. Hopefully should work, would appreciate if someone else can check that it's all functioning too.
EDIT: This doc now includes full HTML copies of every thread here.

Also if someone can consolidate the LoT2 Eng patch progress into one handy dandy zip file (maybe with alternate versions available too for Base/Plus) that would be greatly appreciated and I would be happy to add it in. Admittedly it's not a thread that's been easy for me to parse, else I'd do it myself.

I am available to be contacted on Discord at om the nom#3956
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on February 14, 2020, 04:30:24 PM
Maybe we should make a Discord server for LoT? It'd be nice to still have a place to discuss it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: ZoomyTsugumi on February 14, 2020, 09:33:37 PM
I would be pretty keen to join that kind of server
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Xarizzar on February 14, 2020, 10:15:26 PM
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,21609.0.html

Reminder that there is a channel for Labyrinth of Touhou in Karisa's Discord server.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: LonelyGaruga on February 16, 2020, 08:35:17 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQ37I0QVUAArTyL?format=jpg&name=large)

Doremy addition, specializes in using the 動揺 (Agitated/Upset) status effect and can interfere with special enemy buffs like "Increase the next attack's damage by XX%". 動揺 is exclusive to enemies and has no player equivalent. Tome of Reincarnation are replaced by Tome of Beginnings, the description indicates that using them has the same effect as a full reset, but refunds 100% of the money used on the character. The description makes no mention of the other special items that were used to buff characters, like the stat gems/orbs or Training Manuals, they may not exist. In a separate tweet, 3peso mentioned that it will no longer be possible to strengthen elemental affinities via the library, cutting it down to the basic 6 stats, citing unnecessary stat inflation for the late game as the reason.

There are more mysterious + signs next to character stats.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
Post by: Otaku on February 16, 2020, 10:41:24 PM
A Discord server dedicated to LoT would be nice to have, considering there's a new game in the works as well.

Also playable Doremy, nice.