No offense, and ilu for grouping all the info up in one post, but pretty much anyone who's read the books and pieced together miscellaneous information and/or sweeped Touhouwiki would have gotten to these theories. Even with all this it's technically just "fan speculation" like everything else, even though I agree with you.
It would mean that Maribel/Yukari's ultimate and greatest spell card, representing the thing most dear and important to her, was made in memory of the last moments she got with Renko.Also in this conversation, Renko says something else notable.
Quite frankly, I really don't think ZUN thought so hard about a story he hadn't written yet (though I know they came out within a year of each other) he made references to it and a story afterwards (that you said probably had no purpose) in the spell cards names, which otherwise rarely if ever have any significance behind them.
And it's not a huge point, but I should really point out that ZUN didn't make those comments for PCB spell cards; the wiki editors did. :P
Isn't that the official commentary you unlock for capturing the spell card? (I'm... not a particularly GOOD Touhou player, I'll admit, so...)
I mean, what kind of wiki editor writes like that? Oo "Dispel the shikigami". "Be praying." "Listen for the sound.", etcNNNnnnnnnnno.
Every enemy Spell Card in the game has been cataloged in this list. Each one contains a screenshot, the name in both English and Japanese, where you will see it, and a few unofficial comments from our writers....while the writing style is indeed different, it might just mean that it comes from another editor.
Quick EDIT: Though, ZUN did use to put comments alongside the attacks in the PC-98 games if that counts for something. He physically described the attack (e.g. a 96-way burst of bullets).
Maybe I am underestimating ZUN, but I also think you're overestimating him. Once again, you must ask yourself this: Why is ZUN going to such scheming genius lengths for a single character in a series with over a hundred? Sure she's more important than the average character, but you must question the value of it. If Touhou revolved around Yukari this would all be more plausible, but it doesn't. Once again, what I don't buy is how every last element of Yukari was planned to be subtly tied to Maribel, I don't rule out the theory itself.
I know the editors made some comments about how they translated the names of the spell cards and the meanings of some of those names, but I'm pretty sure the stuff right after "Comment" was written by ZUN. Isn't that the official commentary you unlock for capturing the spell card? (I'm... not a particularly GOOD Touhou player, I'll admit, so...) I mean, what kind of wiki editor writes like that? Oo "Dispel the shikigami". "Be praying." "Listen for the sound.", etc Compare that to the "Comments" for the spell cards in the demo (where you can't capture spell cards to read about later):
"Comment: From the earliest version of the demo.
A purely randomized rain of bullets. Sometimes it'll be really easy, sometimes it won't. "
As you can see, the writing style is clearly different, and I was under the impression it was because the latter was just a comment by a random wiki editor while the former was stuff ZUN put in the game after you capture a spell card.
This is only true for Imperishable Night, Shoot the Bullet, and Double Spoiler, which actually have spellcard comments once captured. For kicks and to keep up the theme, wiki editors have put in specifically ZUN-like comments about spellcard names and patterns for other cards that didn't.
I should know - I wrote Letty's.
So basically, for a character to be important, they have to be the star of a written work, stuff that is widely considered to be "periphrial" to the rest of the canon. >_> I really can't deny ZUN focuses on Yukari more than most, but still...that doesn't change any of my points.
And, well, it's obvious we're just going to go into a predictable and cyclical debate if we keep on about this, so why don't we cut this short for other people's sakes?
...
Ah. Ha. Ha. I applaud you. It's interesting to see someone way more into the story than me for once. Garlyle summed it up pretty well. And again, you have to realize that this is a side-project made by a middle-aged drunkard, not someone writing the next greatAmericanJapanese novel. Two sentences with similar words =/= proof of any sort. You say taken together those two quotes are an indication ZUN believes Yukari is Maribel. However, take them apart, put them in context, and they barely resemble each other.
Would a wayward drunkard write this?
Do you know how many of history's greatest writers had really severe alcohol problems?
Even though it's hard to argue against it, I really hope Yukari and Maribel aren't the same person because it probably leads into the completely asinine scenario in which Gensokyo really is just a dream. (The constant use of "dream" references, especially in the PC-98 years, is distressingly in line with it...)
Do you know how many of history's greatest writers had really severe alcohol problems?A lot, but not all drunkard writers are good, either.
Maybe I am underestimating ZUN, but I also think you're overestimating him. Once again, you must ask yourself this: Why is ZUN going to such scheming genius lengths for a single character in a series with over a hundred? Sure she's more important than the average character, but you must question the value of it. If Touhou revolved around Yukari this would all be more plausible, but it doesn't. Once again, what I don't buy is how every last element of Yukari was planned to be subtly tied to Maribel, I don't rule out the theory itself.
And, yeah. :P Imperishable Night is the only game in the series to have official spell comments, discounting Grimoire of Marisa.
Proof? I did not know this.
Yukari s basically the God of Gensokyo. She is by far the MOST important character in the entire series, because she CREATED the world. The human biblical figures get much screentime in the bible, and are 'basically' the main characters, yet about who is the book about? GOD. And He only acts from the side lines. Yukari is the God of Gensokyo, with Reimu and Marisa as the Biblical figures. Yukari works from the sidelines, and Reimu gets the most screentime, but it is STILL about Yukari.I hardly doubt it. The Hakurei border is announced to be the most important border to be maintained. See the issue about killing the shrine maiden in a danmaku battle. (Spell card discussion thread). We don't actually know Yukari created Gensokyo or not. It is actually quite hard to define Gensokyo as people have different opinions about the "area".
And why is a normal human shrine maiden, of which there have been HUNDREDS of in the past years, deserve a intricate backstory more than the one who leads her, had shaped the world and has lived for thousands of years?! Yukari is clearly THE most influential person in the entirety of Gensokyo, so she isn't just a normal side character! She is practically the MAIN character.Reimu is not an ordinary shrine maiden. I think if I recall correctly, she has the power to invoke gods into her body and borrow their strength. Again here the role of the Hakurei is very important in Gensokyo itself.
And ZUN is a far more philosophical, intelligent, deep, thoughtful and complex than your average human being. - - - - - You severely underestimate the genius that is ZUN. He thinks very hard about his work, and loves it dearly. He puts loads of effort into the games and the stories behind them.Subjective point of view, I partially don't agree, people mark him that way. It was said above that he didn't know what to do with Toramaru Shou. Also in his UFO Interview he does show he does research and plenty of thinking about the characters and their songs, but I don't call it philosophical; more like creative thinking.
He puts so incredibly much backstory between the characters, races and worlds, as seen in Perfect Memento and many other works. If ZUN was casual and didn't bother about the dept of his characters he wouldn't have made those stories. He would have kept it at the games, without any/hardly any supplementary material.You are missing the key point here. If you read through to PMiSS it will answer basic questions about the character. Here is the downside, while PMiSS is pretty vast and detailed it will also rise too many questions. Questions impossible to answer because simply nobody knows. You end up in these type of discussions like Tengukami mentions before me. Not to forget, PMiSS only covers up to PoFV and BAiJR covers only up to IN. A shame because the profile translations isn't telling us much about the characters past PoFV.
I think its is perfectly possible that ZUN was planning this out for very long. Great movie and literary works have sequels of years apart, most of which there wasn't any indication of there would be a sequel, yet it came, perfectly tying in plot points and expanding the story.What movie?
Honestly, I love the mysteries ZUN leaves us with. It stimulates precisely these sorts of discussions.Yup.
if Maribel=Yukari is true, i'll be sad. mostly because i love the idea of Yukari fucking around with humans' dreams.Well if that is the case, she did a pretty fine job fucking around with my dream making herself appear and Samuel L. Jackson. There are limits to contents of a dream, really.
Gensokyo is real. It's just too much for modern humans to handle, so the brain processes it as a dream to prevent a nervous breakdown.
"You mean to tell me that all that shit that happened...all that stuff we seen...ALL those colorful characters...were all a fucking DREAM!?"
"Yeop, funny aint it?"
"..."
I don't know about any of you, but...I'd rather not have that scenerio applied to any of this. It seems like a HUGE dickmove given how long we've messed around with Gensokyo as a whole.
Gensokyo is real. It's just too much for modern humans to handle, so the brain processes it as a dream to prevent a nervous breakdown.
hardly doubt it. The Hakurei border is announced to be the most important border to be maintained. See the issue about killing the shrine maiden in a danmaku battle.
You can read my reply to Stuffman earlier. ZUN makes it pretty clear that it's actually a separate world, and not Maribel's dream. Maribel just THINKS it's a dream, and even she's questioning that maybe it's the ouside world that's her dream (she practically begs Renko to help her figure out which is actually real in Changeability)Fine. That was a fault on my part for not reading ahead.
The original Gensokyo was actually created by a bunch of priests (likely Hakurei priests, for obvious reasons), not Yukari. Yukari simply later on claimed the thing as her own for whatever reason (Yukari being Maribel gives the reason. She wanted to take Gensokyo and transform it into HER reality, which is what Renko told her to do. By the time Akyu interviews Yukari 1200 years later, Yukar'i has such a god complex that she's referring to herself as the representation of Gensokyo's reality)
What movie?
We don't actually know Yukari created Gensokyo or not. It is actually quite hard to define Gensokyo as people have different opinions about the "area".
I hardly doubt it. The Hakurei border is announced to be the most important border to be maintained. See the issue about killing the shrine maiden in a danmaku battle. (Spell card discussion thread). We don't actually know Yukari created Gensokyo or not. It is actually quite hard to define Gensokyo as people have different opinions about the "area".
You are missing the key point here. If you read through to PMiSS it will answer basic questions about the character. Here is the downside, while PMiSS is pretty vast and detailed it will also rise too many questions. Questions impossible to answer because simply nobody knows. You end up in these type of discussions like Tengukami mentions before me. Not to forget, PMiSS only covers up to PoFV and BAiJR covers only up to IN. A shame because the profile translations isn't telling us much about the characters past PoFV.
Also in his UFO Interview he does show he does research and plenty of thinking about the characters and their songs, but I don't call it philosophical; more like creative thinking.
Subjective point of view, I partially don't agree, people mark him that way. It was said above that he didn't know what to do with Toramaru Shou.
I still don't believe Yukari is Maribel or visa versa. One of the reasons is because Yukari is able to enter the real world and Gensokyo, attaining her senses and personality and Maribel cannot. She can only "see" the boundaries (according to profile) which is extremely vague explained and can be interpret in many forms. I skimmed through Tiamat's posts, but aside from what we already know, nothing knew is mentioned. Only connections are trying to be made to come to a conclusion.
One of the reasons is because Yukari is able to enter the real world and Gensokyo, attaining her senses and personality and Maribel cannot. She can only "see" the boundaries (according to profile) which is extremely vague explained and can be interpret in many forms.
Let's see. What you're saying is that Maribel and Yukari are not parallel existences. That Maribel would ultimately become Yukari. Kind of like a time traveler that goes back in time and decides to stay there (one that finds the capablitly to live to the point of catching up with her former self?)? Shallow example I know, but it is a simple one for ease of understanding. After all, Maribel is from the future and Akyu has a note from Maribel that is dated to be centuries old. Therefore, Gensokyo and Maribel are not running parallel.
Of course that brings up a question. Does Gensokoyo time even run like time in the real world? A centuries old note could merely be explained as a difference in time rate between the separated from the real world Gensokyo and the outside world. Or that Gensokyo is chronologically after Maribel's time (Silly I know...Or maybe not.)? Of course, there is Zun's comment on the games happening in the years they're made, so perhaps I am merely flailing my sword at a windmill.
One other question. Does Gensokyo already exist at the time of Maribel's plunge back in time (if I'm understanding your words correctly) in your mind? Though it has nothing to do the current topic, I'm curious.
because Suika reveals in a Hisoutenko win quote that Yukari is attempting to reach Nirvana, and Yukari is clearly hiding something about her reconstruction of the Hakurei Shrine after she destroyed Tenshi's version. ...and she hates Suwako and Utsuho in her fighting game winquotes there too, which makes sense because the things Suwako is doing represent the biggest threat to Yukari's grip on power.. In fact, ZUN might even be setting up a war between the two, because Suwako by now is basically Sanae's Yukari, and the foreshadowing in Kanako's profile in Mountain of Faith is pretty explicit. But... this is future plotline speculation and thus kind of off topic.)
Why all this looking down on Yukari?Because she's NOT a god. Just a youkai.
Can youkai even become Celestials? I'm starting to wonder that. Youkai can't become ghosts, but are they capable of becoming Celestials?
But didn't Yukari's Perfect Memento profile state she was there during Gensokyo's creation? (Along with Dragon God and several other powerful youkai.) I'm pretty sure she was the one who gathered the youkai together and made the border with some of these divine beings.
Never mind. Found the Touhou Wiki article saying the youkai reinforced the border. Apparently Yuyuko even claims Yukari couldn't make such a powerful border by herself. But that really bothers me: why do so many people claim Yukari isn't that powerful even though she can do absolutely everything? Just think of a concept, then imagine the opposite (thus making a boundary) and voila: you can control it. And can't Yukari boost her powers greatly with 'the Border of Strength and Weakness' or 'the Border of Stasis and Development'? She could increase her own power, allowing her to do more amazing things. I can imagine she isn't that powerful combat wise (compared to official deities like Shikieiki, Shinki and Dragon God), but ability/miracle wise she can do everything. Why all this looking down on Yukari?
We don't know the maximum extent of Yukari's abilities, but we do know such a maximum extent exists (even if it's a really REALLY high maximum). Toyohime is able to counteract Yukari's border abilities with her own, for example. And of course, Yukari tries to avoid Shikieiki when she can (Haha, it's kind of funny trying to imagine what her first meeting with Shikieiki was like. I wouldn't be surprised Yukari's extremely morally questionable history, which Shikieiki has the power to see, was enough to make the normally-calm Shikieiki have a complete spazzing fit)
A comment from an SWR staff member for Yukari's "summon train" spell card states that the weakness of the card is that it takes time for Yukari to open the border. Perhaps this is one of the limitation in Yukari's abilities. Yea, she can manipulate borders, but it takes time to actually do so, and time is possibly one of the few things Yukari can't control (at least, not manually. The time slip that sent Maribel back 1,200 years was probably not done on purpose). In Marsia's battle with Yukari in PCB's extra, Yukari manipulates the border between day and night, but even doing that doesn't change the TIME. This is something that is made clear when it's revealed at the end that time was passing normally despite Yukari playing around with the border between night and day. This is again shown in Imerpsiahble Night, where Yukari can prolong the night by futzing around with the border between night and day, but time still passes, to the point where you get the bad ending if time runs out. Yukari also is constantly saying things like "I don't have time for this" in several games.
If Yukari was really capable of manipulating time, she probably would have gone back and taken Renko, since there's evidence she still misses her friend (Yukari's infatuation with physics and numbers, which was Renko's specialty)
Indirectly, Toyohime managed to beat Yukari due to time as well. Yukari couldn't win because the border trap was set 1,000 years ago, and Toyohime specifically brings this up. The implication is that Yukari can't travel back in time and change the past to remove that trap.
I imagine there are other limitations, too, but time is definately one of the most probable ones.
The implication is that Yukari can't travel back in time and change the past to remove that trap.
This, of course, means that Yukari can't possibly be Maribel. Because Maribel is from the future.
So, uh... Yeah.
Yea, she can manipulate borders, but it takes time to actually do so, and time is possibly one of the few things Yukari can't control (at least, not manually. The time slip that sent Maribel back 1,200 years was probably not done on purpose).Besides, if you believe Maribel travels back in time, the other things that must be believed for that to work pretty much secure that Yukari=Maribel anyway.
This, of course, means that Yukari can't possibly be Maribel. Because Maribel is from the future.
So, uh... Yeah.
I fail to see any place where Maribel ever manipulated time on purpose.
Fact: Maribel couldn't control how she travelled through time. All the cases where she time travelled wasn't on purpose.
Fact (far as we know): Yukari can't (at least, not yet) control any travel through time.
There is no contradiction.
It should be noted that when Renko stated that Maribel's power was evolving to be able to control borders, Renko didn't know Maribel was travelling through time either. Maribel never mentioned the time-travel part to Renko. The ability to control borders and the ability to control time are probably two different things.
So if you cross breed Yukari with Sakuya/Keine you get the ultimate youkai? :V
So if you cross breed Yukari with Sakuya/Keine you get the ultimate youkai? :V(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/OwlBear1337/Screens/dont_say_such_things.png)
(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/OwlBear1337/Screens/dont_say_such_things.png)
Also, Keine can't time travel, but I'm sure you didn't mistake her history powers for that.
Yukari Maribel pic
TOYOHIME HAS BORDER POWERS?!
Sakuya can't time travel either. I however assumed that the combining genes of boundary and time/history power might allow time travel power. Genetics is fun! :V
Hmm, yea, that's an awesome pic. But... I'm too busy typing posts to convert it and upload it to a photobucket account right now. Maybe later
Perfect Memento states that she could technically reverse time, but it's difficult and the way it's done ends up being that she might as well not have reversed time at all.
I had a speculation where Maribel met an alternate universe Sakuya on the moon (before Remilia changed Sakuya's fate) which led to Maribel's ultimate time slip, but I have trouble believing this theory is true, because Maribel already met Sakuya earlier, which implies that Sakuya existed even when Yukari didn't. (and yes, I did examine Maribel's and Sakuya's meeting, and all the connotations it implies. Again, I'll go into that later)
My current wild mass guessing theory is tha Maribel ran into alternate universe kaguya, who has the power to control eternity, and her powers mixed with Maribel's to send Maribel flying back in time. If you remember the original bamboo story, it had a bad ending where Kaguya goes back to the moon in the end even though she wanted to stay on earth. Of note is that Yukari's first sightings were 1,200 years ago, and Kaguy's story in the Touhouverse takes place 1,200 years ago as well. But.... again, this is COMPLETELY speculation. .This theory too has its own problems, because Yukari doesn't seem to recognize Kaguya in Imperishable Night (she DOES, however, recognize Mokou, which at least confirms she remembers her Mokou meeting as Maribel. ... er, well, at least, it implies it. Again, I'll go into that later). Alright, it's time for me to get back on topic, now.
I promised I'd go more into Keine and Sakuya in regards to Yukari, so here we go. I'll start with Keine. Stay tuned while I write it up! ...yea.
I severely underestimated Toyohime.....
Rule of thumb involving Zun lunarians.
Anything on the moon is vastly more powerful than their earth counterpart. Always.
This is partly why I detest SSIB. It makes even those who don't even -do- anything seem worse.
Oh but they do have a weakness. A few, actually.
here you are. (http://i41.tinypic.com/2ylu1qc.jpg)
Oh but they do have a weakness. A few, actually.
The ingredients of the Hourai Elixir are known only by Eirin Yagokoro, whose name points her out to be the "Mind of God", an omniscient being. Because she made the Hourai Elixir the true elixir of immortality, she probably also made it irreversible, making its effects perfectly permanent. In her confrontation with Mokou, Alice points out that the soul is made invincible. This, along with Yuyuko's and Yukari's scenario in Imperishable Night, makes it seem that the Hourai Elixir itself isn't a power that keeps one immortal, but makes one an existence completely independent of even the concept of reality, thus making one not subject to the bounds of life, death, or even manipulation, although the pain of injuries can still be felt.
With that, we can move on to Keine.
First off, let's start with the most obvious part.
Keine's history powers don't work on Yukari. This is officially confirmed 100% beyond a doubt here:
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Imperishable_Night:_Boundary_Team%27s_Scenario_1
Keine: "Humans never settled here in the first place."
All I did was make it look that way.
I'll protect the humans from this ill-omened night.
Yukari: Hey, you know.
I do see the humans as usual though.
This little trick of yours isn't useful at all.
Keine: ! What exactly are you two?
Reimu: Don't worry. It's invisible enough to me.
Keine: Uu. Your pity isn't helping.
Seriously, Inaba of the Moon/Earth taught us that as hax as Yoriyori is, she stands no chance against a simple hole in the ground covered with leaves. That was awesome of Tewi to do.
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia:_Chapter_21
Just wondering if you found anything in that, since all most people bother with is Chapter 25.
Anyways, there's still the possibility that Maribel is a relative. If Yukari really wanted to limit people's knowledge of the outside world, she would have to deal with the humans that come from the outside, who're often talked to by villagers. Plus, she would have to silence Sanae, and wouldn't have explained to Kourin what a Game Boy was, in fact.
My thoughts? Zun may like this inconclusiveness. Or he may not be much consistent, maybe sometimes making stuff on a whim (Ichirin, Byakuren).
About Yukari filling the role of a god, it's known that she's not omnipotent, and also not omniscient (or else, she would've known enough about the geysers and earth spirits during SA, and wouldn't have to send Reimu down there. And she could very well have stopped Tenshi, before she destroyed the shrine for the first time during SWR. And.. -- in case Yukari just wanted Reimu and others to know/meet said characters and/or make concessions to them, letting them attain a certain degree of their objectives, be them interests or entertainment.. or ZUN didn't intended Yukari to be omniscient, because the stories are really meant to justify the game's events -- Yukari didn't knew exactly what was the treasure that Yuyuko had stolen in the Lunar Capital. Among other things.)
I disagree that Yukari just manipulates the miko, because they're a required element on the human vs. youkai balance. Without that element, there would be no one (outside of the incident-solving "imitators") to defend the humans, and that would mean that youkai would either have to fight themselves, to preserve their powers (since if they can't attack regular humans without killing them, outside of spellcard battles, their food-supply or source of powers would be depleted sooner or later. Akyu states that youkai do defend the human villages against other youkai.). Sure, youkai could fight themselves in spellcard battles, but then, there would be no one to defend humans' interests if/when needed. (though Yukari did bug Reimu to help youkai in IN and SA, for example)
Well, the spellcard rules were made so that youkai and humans could keep fighting each other, but without lethal outcomes. This was necessary so that the youkai's powers didn't fade with time, from lack of usage of their abilities. If they were to be weakened by that, they could be overpowered by humans, and/or powerful outsiders (I think I've said somewhere else, that MoF was a nice, subtle example -- even though Kanako did care about the "power balance" of the youkai at the top of the mountain, and those anywhere else, hence why she wanted to overtake the Hakurei Shrine. Speaking ofnot-sosubtle examples, UFO was another one, where Byakuren was a direct comparison subject with the old-time Gensokyo, but perhaps not limited to that region. Byakuren is such an old relic :p).
First off, I'm sad I'm not the 'Wall of Text' King of MotK anymore. :( You deserve it, Tiamat. *hands over crown*
Secondly, I wholeheartedly agree with you Tiamat. Brilliant. Just brilliant. It is absolutely flawless. I fully believe Maribel is Yukari now. I fully support your statement.
But who is to say Renko didn't come with Maribel after all? Who is to say Maribel didn't take Renko with her and turned her into the very first Hakurei Shrine Maiden? Or maybe Renko got stuck on the Lunar Capital after Maribel got automatically whisked away to Gensokyo (assuming it happened immediately there after). Renko may have taken Hourai Elixir there, and is now searching for Maribel (or maybe the current ruler of the Lunar Capital). Oh, so much possibilities. If Renko truly is in the Lunar Capital, it would make a perfect tie-in for the next Touhou game. A Touhou game starring Yukari, with the final boss being this Lunar Renko. This would prove Yukari=Maribel.
Now to ruin my arguments by taking a moment to throw away common sense and suggest ways to shoehorn in the Hearn->Yakumo transition without Yukari and Maribel being the same person: Let's flip my last suggestion on its head and say that Maribel Hearn later married into the name Maribel Yakumo, and had a daughter by the name of Yukari. Little Yukari learned most of her interests from Mama Mary and Auntie Renko, and later ended up in a time mishap sending her back several thousand years, where she developed into an enormously powerful youkai based off of her mother's abilities. After finally re-approaching her own birth date, Yukari interferes with Mom and Auntie to make sure that things go as they did in the first instance of the time loop, and life continues.Screw everything else, this is crazyawesome enough that I love it.
So now it's "Gensokyo politics and plot," not "Maribel is Yukari?"The topic will involve politics because politics were a part of Yukari's actions. Yukari's actions were taken due to her goal and motivations. Maribel becoming Yukari explains Yukari's motivations.
I still don't buy that part entirely, though I'll admit I mostly skimmed things here. You've revealed a lot more evidence of there being an intentional strong connection between the two than I thought there were (though I never really looked), but I'm not seeing any necessarily compelling evidence for actually being the same person. Especially the version with a necessary time jump; there are other plausible alternatives.
DISCLAIMER: Much of this is bullshitting. I haven't read much of anything, but I need to poke a few holes into the theory to make sure it holds up to my satisfaction, at least on this detail.
Let me claw at the timejump requirement first: This seems to be presumed largely on the basis of "Hearn->Yakumo," which isn't strictly necessary even if Yukari and Maribel ARE the same person; it's just as possible to go the other way. The connection of names doesn't have to be identical, and necessitating time travel of this sort when there's no evidence if it being done with that character's powers is a BIG jump. (On a lesser note, it's worth pointing out that the real Hearn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lafcadio_Hearn) took "Yakumo" as his given name, rather than his family name - while Yukari uses it as her family name instead. Just a homage to Lafcadio, maybe?)
I can think of a few ways that Yukari could become Maribel as well, with a linear timeline. If Yukari had to/chose to leave Gensokyo for an extended period of time, living as a 'foreign' girl going to college in Japan would be an excellent cover story to blend in - she's eternally 17, after all~! The simplest explanation is that Maribel is just Yukari in the future, taking a break from Gensokyo, playing stupid, and trolling a human friend she made in the meantime (or perhaps testing whether she's worthy of being brought into Gensokyo as a friend, as a repeat of what happened with Yukari and Yuyuko) - do any of the written works explicitly show Maribel's thoughts, to ensure that it isn't all an act?p.s. Sana hates this interpretation
Presented theories:
Yukari could have lost her powers.
Maribel is Yukari's consciousness gone to a separate body.
Yukari made Maribel.
Maribel's abilities are coincidental/benign.
Yukari trained Maribel.
Maribel is Yukari's descendant.
Yukari could have lost her powers.
Maribel is Yukari's consciousness gone to a separate body.
Yukari made Maribel.
Maribel's abilities are coincidental/benign.
Yukari trained Maribel.
Maribel is Yukari's descendant
Maribel married into the Yakumo family and sent her daughter Yukari back 1,200 years.
Debunked. Rinnosuke uses his name abilities in Curiousities of Lotus Asia Chapter 25 to discover that Yukari named herself Yukari Yakumo. Thus no one else (including her mother) could have named her Yukari Yakumo.
One thing's for sure. Yukari dislikes Lunarians. She's pretty darn cold to them in the fighting games (well, to Reisen, at least) and like I said, if someone's willing to pull off a ridiculously elaborate and complex plan just to steal a bottle of sake from you, they probably really REALLY don't like you.
The only remotely-confirmed (remotely) thing Yukari wants to limit about the outside world is the Hakurei shrine. She's fine with you knowing what a gameboy is (although she's going to keep it for herself, apparently), and she doesn't mind everyone learning how to play soccer (throw-away line in Perfect Memento which is probably just ZUN giving a shout out, but whatever)
Currently, the most obvious foreshadowing going on is the mountain youkai's disturbingly fast rise in power. And ZUN is definately using Kanako/Suwako/Sanae to build up to something (Kanako's profile ends with her deciding that she's going to use the Hakurei Shrine to gather ALL of Gensokyo's faith, and thaclearly happened after MoF's ending since the Tengu and Kappa are already worshipping her by then. And then you get to things like Utsuho (whom Yukari tells her that her power goes too far) and Suwako and Sanae in Hisoutenko, and ZUN apparently even got the writer of Inaba of the Moon and Earth to throw in a foreshadowing omment that the tengu and kappa were possibly becomming too powerful thanks to Suwako and Kanako, etc etc. (well, it might have been put in there per ZUN's suggestion/request/whatever)
Just because she's a required element doesn't mean Yukari isn't manipulating her. Yukari is fully capable of both manipulating the miko AND defending humans at the same time. The two aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, defending the humans from youkai is one of Maribel's main goals in the first place, and if anything manipulating the miko was probably one of the main things Yukari did to accomplish that. Yukari couldn't defend humans from youkai directly, because all indications are she doesn't want the youkai to realize she's trying to find ways to protect humans from them. It's a moot point now that Yukari's ultimate goal came to realization with the passage of the spell card rules, anyways.
To note, Tenshi isn't really a maso. She's just durable to the point that Sakuya's knives harmlessly bounce off her skin. She's packing some high def grinding.
This is the only one that's really not debunked. However, again, it has no evidence to support it. When an author states only one method, then that method is probably the method that happened. ZUN has never brought up a descendant when it comes to Yukari, but he's certainly brought up time-slipping when it comes to Maribel.
at least, there's the possibility that Yukari and Maribel are relatives,
I wonder... how far in the future is Renko, compared to Present-Gensokyo's current place in time?
And will Yukari ever go see her?
As long as she waited till after Maribel/past-her left, it wouldn't make a time paradox or anything.
...hunh. You know, I always thought of Suwako as blue for some reason, but now that I look at her, she really IS violet.
Yea, okay, I was 95% sure ZUN was doing the Yukari Suwako symbolism on purpose for something, but now I'm pretty much 100% certain (I'd be 120% certain if that were possible). At this point, making the two factions clash is practically obligatory. Although I'd be surprised to see it happen in a normal shooting game (a fighting game or another SSiB manga, on the other hand, would be quite logical)
....I wonder if Kanako (who wears red and white) is supposed to parallel Reimu. The two allegedly argue a lot according to Kanako's profile (but if anything, the fact that they argue a lot is proof that they're good friends, according to the profile), and Reimu argues a lot with Yukari (...well, actually, it's a lot more one-sided than that, but Reimu is Yukari's shrine maiden while Kanako is more like Suwako's partner). Course, Reimu is Yukari's shrine maiden of sorts while Kanako conquered Suwako. Maybe that's foreshadowing.
But where did you read that Suwako was once human? Sure, I believe in the theory that Gods are the ghost of humans that obtained massive amounts of faith during their lifetime/after death (and thus could re-materialize again in a more powerful form), but as far as I know there hasn't been any official confirmation of that. Care to show the source of that fact?
if Maribel=Yukari is true, i'll be sad. mostly because i love the idea of Yukari fucking around with humans' dreams.
Hmm... that's odd. I could have sworn it was mentioned somewhere. When I saw it, I thought it made sense because Sanae is Suwaka's descendant and yet seems to come from a mortal line (well, it'd seem kinda silly if Sanae came from a long line of immortal gods since then we'd have a truckton of immortal gods related to Sanae running around), so I always thought Suwako just gave birth while a human and before becoming a god (although Suwako must have had her powers then, still, since Sanae inherited them).
I could be wrong in this. My knowledge of Japanese deities and their prorecreation isn't that strong, but I thought they only gave birth to other gods (Sanae's claim to being a "living god" being something else, entirely).
Does anyone know where it's finally revealed to Sanae herself that she's Suwako's descendant? According to her wikia page, she finds out in Subteranean Animalism but I don't see it.
To be honest, I haven't done that much analysis on Suwako/Kanako/Sanae yet. My research was mostly focused on Yukari and later a few other things. So I could get quite a few things wrong about Suwako here and there.
(getting back to the prior subject, after looking at Yukari's ending in SWR again, I'm slightly more certain than before that she's trying to become a god now. But I'm not sure how much we're allowed to talk about endings here)
There's a lot of incredibly convincing theories and mindblowing connections being thrown around here. This conversation is just so interesting, that I just have to chip in with my own piece of speculation/wild guesswork/whatever that I came upon while reading this.
Someone mentioned earlier that Toyohime could be an alternate dimension Yukari or something like the moon counterpart of Yukari. However, with all this Maribel = Yukari speculation flying around I just had to take a look at another scenario: Toyohime is actually Yukari too.
(Keep in mind that I haven't read the books itself, I'm just going by Toyohime's wiki entry, my previous information from the games and points I have picked from this conversation).
Okay, what actually suggests that a theory like this is true:
- Toyohime and Yukari resemble each other to the point that Toyohime could be called an alternate dimension Yukari. Most importantly both have Border manipulation Powers, and both use a fan as a weapon.
- If indeed Yukari = Maribel, then highly likely Yukari has indeed travelled back in time, which suggests that she has the potential to learn time travelling. Since Maribel's abilities also seemingly grew over time, if we assume Maribel's ability to see borders grew into Yukari's ability, nothing says that Yukari's can't grow any more. Maribel could have at first used the ability by accident/with the help of someone, and Yukari would have learnt to use it consciously only much later. This could possibly intervene with the "Yukari trying to ascend into godhood" -theory.
- Then: If Yukari could finally travel through time, what would she do with her ability? One thing that spurs into mind is that she would travel to the moon before the "border trap" mentioned in the discussion was set and complete her invasion. Of course, there are several possibilities what would happen after that: Maybe she defeats the lunarians and becomes their leader. Maybe, in fact, (even if this is possibly going a bit too far) she could end up on an empty moon and realize: "Oh crap, there never were any lunarians here initially. Now, in order to keep the Gensokyo I'm in just as I made it to be, I have to create a civilization here, set up the border trap, advance the technology of this place a ton and finally beat myself when I try to land the invasion here". Yukari had knowledge from the future, so she could possibly create quite advanced-technology, and the inhabitant problem could be solved by simply gapping some people there (Perfect Memento classifies lunarians as humans, so they could possibly have originated from ordinary humans). Also, extending oh this (although this is going quite far already) if Yukari led the Youkai to the moon in order to make them more passive, she could have planned it all along (ie, "Lead them to moon where a more powerful civilization, created by me when I unlock my time-travelling powers completely, awaits to crush them"). Although the possibility of Yukari just beating them up and deciding to reside there is just as possible.
Toyohime is a lunarian and Yukari is a youkai. However, if indeed Yukari=Maribel, Yukari has once been a human, and therefore could possibly become one again (remember, Perfect Memento classifies Lunarians as humans. See the Lunarian page in Touhou Wiki for confirmation).
This is a highly unlike guess, but the idea of Yukari beating herself up in the moon is just too intriguing to pass. Feel free to tear my theory open with superior knowledge of the books or support it and possibly expand on it.
You can talk about endings if you use spoiler tags. Give a bit of warning that ending details are coming up, and put said details in spoiler tags. You won't get in any trouble if you do that.
And regarding Suwako and Sanae: ever heard of Demi-Gods? The result of mortals and Gods procreating? Greek mythology is filled to the brim with them. I'm pretty sure Japanese Gods can birth demi-gods too. Besides, if the rules of faith-gods apply to the whole world, then Greek Gods and Japanese Faith Gods wouldn't be all that different. I think Sanae is just the result of Suwako having intercourse with a human. And I'm pretty sure the games and backstories made it pretty clear that Faith Gods can't turn into humans and vice-versa (at least in their life times. I think the soul of a human can become a Faith God. So they first need to die before they can ascend. This is pure speculation though). Faith Gods are born out of the believe and faith of man, and disappear again if no one believes in them anymore. If man makes up a God or is in dire need of one, the faith that is emitted by the human(s) creates a God. If that is the case, it is impossible that Suwako was once a human, unless she reincarnated in one (like I described earlier in my theory). And even then, Suwako could not have possibly passed down her power to her heritsge if she was a human before becoming a God. A Living God is in fact a Demi-God. They are the result of man and Gods having intercourse, and have the might of a God but the mortality of a man. I believe Demi-Gods could possibly ascend into the form of true Faith God when he/she meets certain requirements. I think they don't need to die first before they can become a full-fledged Faith God.
(I'm using the term 'Faith God' for Gods that need faith to exist, like Suwako, Kanako, the Aki Sisters and Hina. I use this term to differentiate them from 'True Gods' or 'Infinite Beings' as I call them. These are heavenly beings that can keep existing without faith and govern the fabric of reality. Examples of this include Shikieiki and the Yamas, Komachi and the Shinigami, Shinki and Dragon God. You could basically them 'Okami', while Suwako/Kanako etc. are merely 'Kami'. They are also VASTLY more powerful than a youkai or Faith God can ever hope to be. After all, Yukari fears Shikieiki, Komachi can kick quite some ass and Shinki created her own, entire world filled with life. Dragon God may or may not be THE God. They are clearly far more powerful than all the other races (with Celestials being the runner-ups). That is why I make a distinction between the two. Yukari clearly wants to become an Infinite Being, not a Faith God, for Faith Gods can disappear.)
Well, like I said, I don't know much about Japanese gods. Yea, Greek Gods can have demi gods and mortal offspring, but this is Japanese Gods we're talking about. The two are clearly very VERY different (in like, a hundred+ ways), so I'd hesitate to use Greek Gods as an example in anything. Maybe Japanese Gods CAN procreate and make demi-gods. However, if this is true, it will not be because of what Greek Gods do, but because of what Japanese legends say they can do. As it is, a quick search I did on Japanese Gods didn't reveal any cases of demi-gods from them that I saw, but again, I haven't researched it much, so I imagine if it's true, someone can easily come up with an example (and I would be most grateful if they posted it here)
If no one does it, perhaps I'll look into it soon. But I'm a bit busy at this moment.
I can confirm one thing as it applies to the Touhouverse, though. Japanese (and probably Faith, if they aren't one and the same, although I think they are) Gods can originally be human. That's officially confirmed here:
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate:_Chapter_3
"Mizue no Urashimako, a man who had been spirited away by chance. He was entered into the ranks of the gods, and by doing so strengthened people's faith in the land of Hourai - in the lunar capital, and made all of the era's authority figures fear the austere majesty of the land of Hourai. "
Mizue is definately a Japanese God (duh). I'm not sure whether or not he's a faith god, but faith was apparently a big deal in terms of this god because faith is clearly mentioned in the above passage.
Of course, this doesn't touch upon Suwako's wind powers being passed down to Sanae. That itself requires a whole lot of... research and/or thought that I don't have time to look into at this moment.
Kanako is the Wind Goddess, while Suwako is an Earth and Curse Goddess.
I doubt Sanae inherited the wind powers from Suwako through birth or anything like that. It's more so, that she inherited the ability to use Suwakos and Kanakos Powers because of her family.
If we take Touhou logic then almost all religions have Faith Gods, and should follow the same rules. So if we take those rules, then Greek Gods = Japanese Gods. I don't see why a Japanese God would be incapable of delivering Demi-Gods. And I think Sanae's background story and ancestry pretty much confirm she is a Demi-Goddess and her ancestor was birthed by Suwako with the father being a normal human. Otherwise Sanae would not have been half human. And Sanae couldn't have her semi-divine powers if her ancestor got birthed before Suwako became a Goddess. Either that, or Suwako became a Goddess while pregnant. An alternative is that Suwako placed a blessing on a mortal woman, so that the woman would birth Sanae's ancestor. Because it is birthed by a human and not by God (but still 'fertilized' by a God) the result is more likely to be a Demi-God. It isn't explicitly stated that Suwako birthed the child herself, after all. And Gods tend to have strange fetishes, so maybe she turned into a guy for a moment to have intercourse with the woman. I mean, it would be strange if a lowly human ever got the chance to have intercourse with his Goddess. This man would need to be an amazing hero or something like that to woo Suwako. It is far more likely that Suwako herself decided to have some fun with her own subjects. She's a nut job after all.
And regarding Misue, that line only states he strengthened the faith of the land, not that he took it for himself. He might have strengthened it for other Faith Gods, but he himself has no need for it because he is an Infinite Being. Although, the Dragon God is stated to be able to get even more power from faith, despite not living off of faith. Maybe Mizue got power boosts from the faith, but he didn't need it to survive. He is still an Infinite Being. I can find no source that Suwako was ever human. Faith Gods are made by the faith and imagination of man. As far as I'm concerned, only Demi-Gods could ascend into Faith Gods, not normal humans. Faith Gods aren't made of flesh-and-blood like Infinite Beings. Faith Gods are walking piles of Faith Energy, and thus I cannot imagine that something made out of belief could have ever been human. I do believe that souls of humans can be used as a 'blue print' to create a Faith God, but then you can't become one when you are still alive. You need to die first. If people have large amounts of faith in someone, then that person will become a Faith God upon death. There are many Gods from Greek, Japanese and Egyptian mythology that became Gods upon death. These people were usually heroes or royals, so they had lots of faith in their life already. They could thus ascend to Faith Gods. Even Jesus Christ can be seen as a Faith God: upon death he came back to life and ascended to the form of a Faith God.
If Suwako was once a human, then she would have needed to die before she could ascend. And before that she would need to be a hero, a royal or a famous priestess. If she birthed a child when she was alive, then that child would not inherit divine powers, and I doubt a Faith God can turn someone else into a Faith God whenever they want to. And even if she could, why would she only go halfway? Why not into a complete Faith God? The divine power is in Sanae's genetic code, so you can't say Sanae is a Demi-God because Suwako gave her ancestor some power while she was serving Suwako. That power would not have been passed opver, since it was only a temporary buff that needed to be maintained by Suwako. The power must have been passed over genetically.
I think ZUN made it pretty clear Sanae is a Demi-God and that Suwako had intercourse with a mortal man/blessed a mortal woman. And look at it from another way: Gods are born from faith. They are born from man's belief. If two Faith Gods had intercourse a new Faith God wouldn't be born since people have no belief in that divine child. The humans need to think up a God first before one can be born again, and most of the time these new gods just 'poof' into existence, not birthed by other Gods. If a God had intercourse with a human a half-breed would be born that didn't need faith, and thus be able to exist and be born. It will then have to ascend into a complete Faith God.
Also: These are ZUN's games. He can decide whether Gods can birth Demi-Gods or not. Based on the sources we have, he has decided that they can. After all, real religions don't say that their God would disappear if no one gave it faith. That is something made up by ZUN to put a limiter on Faith Gods. You can't really base it on Japanese mythology since ZUN keeps putting his own twist on things! Japanese mythology might not have any cases of Demi-Gods, but ZUN can put them in anyway since it is his world! He's also has quite some knowledge of Western mythology, so he may have implemented Greek god characteristics in his Faith Gods.
Side note: Misue too was a living god for a bit according to Cage in Runegate Chapter 3, but stopped being one after he... er, well, stopped living (I mean, he died. Obviously). After that, he became deified, which is pretty much how a human becomes a kami according to the wikipedia article.
"All mythological creatures of the Japanese cultural tradition, of the Buddhistic tradition, Christian God, Hindu gods, Islamic Allah, various angels and demons of all faiths among others are considered Kami for the purpose of Shinto faith." ~Wikipedia article on Shinto
Note, however, that while all the above are considered Kami, "Greek Gods" were not included. On the other hand, if we assume this wikipedia statement to be true at its most literal form, that would mean all Youkai are gods, too, and that's just silly and wrong.
I did stumble across this win quote from Komachi to Suwako that implies at least Komachi thinks Suwako (and Kanako) were human once, since they had to transcend the cycle of rebirth. Either that or gods too are subject to the cycle of rebirth and need to reach Nirvana, themselves, but that sounds kinda... odd. Maybe something's being lost in the translation here.
"In the stages of life and rebirth, both of you can be seen as Gods who've completely transcended the cycle of suffering. Is that right? " ~Komachi to Suwako
And this is the line that probably led to me accidentally thinking Suwako was officially confirmed to be a human earlier in the first place. I must have been too sleep deprived at the time (since it's a win quote to Sanae, not Suwako)
"You should be aware that before you were a god, you were a mere human. " ~Tenshi to Sanae, Hisou Tensoko
Data point: the Bible does not say that Satan is the second-most powerful, after God.
Yes he is. Various sources tell Lucifer is the mightiest angel, and since angels are second-only to God in Christianity, Lucifer can be considered the mightiest being in Christianity next to God (assuming God is the entirety of the Holy Triad. If Jezus is a separate being, then Jezus and the Holy Spirit are second most powerful). This article is an example of one these sources that state Lucifer is the mightiest angel (look under 'Origins of Fallen Angels Story'). (http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/articleview.asp?Post=35)
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the "gods":
2 "How long will you [a] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.
1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
3 On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury [a] has ended!
5 The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
6 which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.
7 All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
8 Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon
exult over you and say,
"Now that you have been laid low,
no woodsman comes to cut us down."
9 The grave below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you?
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones?
all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
"You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us."
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.
16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
"Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a desert,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?"
18 All the kings of the nations lie in state,
each in his own tomb.
19 But you are cast out of your tomb
like a rejected branch;
you are covered with the slain,
with those pierced by the sword,
those who descend to the stones of the pit.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
20 you will not join them in burial,
for you have destroyed your land
and killed your people.
The offspring of the wicked
will never be mentioned again.
This indicates that Reimu had never fought Remilia before prior to the Scarlet Mist incident, with or without the spell card rules.
To further this argument, as stated in the timeline of Gensokyo's historical events, Akyuu believes that Remilia entered Gensokyo after the Vampire incident. I would like to think that Akyuu would not have included that little detail if she knew that Remilia was the one who was responsible for the Vampire Incident as well.
Furthermore, certain arguments have become circular, where it amounts to "If you assume that Maribel is Yukari, then [this part] strongly shows that Maribel is Yukari."
Well, I hope you enjoyed my ramblings. I think fact that almost all her spell cards relate to Maribel's experiences prove beyond a doubt that Yukari is Maribel. At least, I'm convinced 100% that she is. I hope you are, too! If not, that's okay, you're still free to believe what you wish. However, for those of you who are also convinced like me, let me now point out some fun things that I like to think ZUN tossed in, knowing that Yukari is Maribel. Well, in a bit, perhaps. Rome wasn't built in a day, you know. Until my next post, thanks for reading!
And I don't think it is odd at all that Gods can reach Nirvana themselves. After all, if we take the Fsith Gods we've had up till now, the Faith Gods seem FAR from omniscient and omnipotent. Reaching nirvana gives one a certain degree of those two abilities. The Faith Gods we know also suffer from many of human's faults and sin quite a lot. They are far from perfect. According to Perfect Memento profile on Celestials, Angels/Celestials are FAR more powerful than all the other characters. Canonically, Tenshi won against all the characters in SWR EXCEPT Yukari. Also consider that Tenshi isn't a real Celestial: she only tagged along with her family when they ascended through their own effort. She never reached nirvana, and thus misses out on a lot of a "real" Celestial's power and discipline. And STILL she can best the bulk of Gensokyo's heroes. That says a lot about a true Celestial's power. Celestials even wipe the floor with elite Shinigami that try to take them to the Yamas. They are clearly far more powerful than Faith Gods. Faith Gods can thus still transpire to become Celestials or even Infinite Beings. Infinite Beings are the very top. Faith Gods can still try to attain a higher form and power. Celestials and Infinite Beings can also never truly die, just like immortals, bit Faith Gods can die when they run out of faith. We can assume Gods are sent back into the cycle of rebirth once it runs out of faith. After all, no sentient being ever vanishes forever. Everything that is sentient has a soul, and can thus return to the cycle of rebirth upon death, including Faith Gods. Faith Gods are far from perfect, and should thus be required to reach nirvana like everyone else to become perfect. It isn't odd at all.
Ok so apparently the translators made a mistake.
"結局この騒動は、最も力のある妖怪が力業で吸血鬼を叩きのめし、様々な禁止事項を決めた契約を結び、和解した。 "
The vampire was defeated by youkai who possesed greater power. Not by the miko.
The part where Akyuu believed the Scarlet Devil Mansion appeared after this incident was actually an unsettled disagreement in the Japanese wiki whether the Vampire Incident took place before, within or after the PC-98 games.
I do believe maribel is yukari, but not that mary became yukari as time passed and stuff like that. it's not like she's even disappeared from this world.
i think she just becomes yukari in her dreams, and enters gensokyo. there's so much evidence for that, but there's pretty much no evidence for your story.
I do believe maribel is yukari, but not that mary became yukari as time passed and stuff like that. it's not like she's even disappeared from this world.
i think she just becomes yukari in her dreams, and enters gensokyo. there's so much evidence for that, but there's pretty much no evidence for your story.
About Yukari and Maribel being the same person in parallel worlds (as in one being active while the other sleeps), Yukari just outlives Maribel :p
I do believe maribel is yukari, but not that mary became yukari as time passed and stuff like that. it's not like she's even disappeared from this world.
i think she just becomes yukari in her dreams, and enters gensokyo. there's so much evidence for that, but there's pretty much no evidence for your story.
About Yukari and Maribel being the same person in parallel worlds (as in one being active while the other sleeps), Yukari just outlives Maribel :p
(as for the theory that Yukari outlived Maribel, how does THAT work when Maribel is clearly in the future? Yukari can't outlive Maribel when Maribel wasn't even BORN yet)
Both characters explaining how it works are two reasonably intelligent characters (ZUN has specifically stated that Maribel and Renko are very smart. ...and that "smart girls are cool.", and Rinnosuke is generally treated by most other characters as a reliable source of advice, too, if with a few personality quirks on how to run a business). Neither character even for a moment has any doubts about the way it works, and the fact that they didn't even need to really think about it at all before knowing what was going on shows that apparently this is supposed to be common sense (or at least, common sense to reasonably intelligent people) in ZUN's world (not just Gensokyo, but the entire world, since Renko is an outsider)
Maribel?s viewpoint of how it works might count as a disagreement, but even then Maribel?s view of how it works doesn?t have anything to do with constantly switching back and forth or with parallel worlds. Or of even travelling to another world at all. Maribel basically believes ?If I?m dreaming it, my mind must be making it real?. But even she?s so unsure of that that she?s practically begging Renko for advice on the matter in Changeability of Strange Dream. Given that ZUN gave the last word to Renko, and had Rinnosuke repeat it, it?s pretty clear how ZUN is going to have it work in his Touhouverse.
Sadly, apparently it's meant to be such common sense that neither character bothers spelling out the exact method for us. The way it's narrated in both cases, it's almost as if ZUN expects us to already know it's supposed to work this way (and possibly, maybe he does. Maybe it's something that the Japanese tend to believe dreams work in general that just doesn't translate to western cultures that well)
It?s only 95% certain that Rinnosuke was dreaming when he did this (?It looked like I had just fallen asleep for a little while.? and ?If I just kept falling asleep like this, there was no way I could reach my goal.?), but if you want complete confirmation that he was dreaming while he went travelling to another world, you get it here:
Of course, in Maribel?s case, the symbolism here is that Gensokyo was originally the dream, but now it?s rapidly expanding (IE, overtaking the reality).
~100 years ago - period of the 8th Child of Miare, Hieda no Aya
During this time, humans begin becoming powerful enough to seriously challenge youkai
3: In the time of Aya, the eighth Are Maiden, the power of the youkai of Gensokyo was weakening, and humans outside began to deny their existence, so we were already on the brink of collapse.
These peaceful, yet stimulating times are surely a golden age for humans and youkai alike.
There's no doubt that Gensokyo has become the way it is thanks to the isolation brought about by the Great Hakurei Barrier.
About the time humans outside began to become more powerful and deny the existence of youkai, Gensokyo was already in danger of destruction(*3).
but many of you seem to have a heart attack whenever circumstantial evidence or evidence which requires extrapolation is mentioned, so I figured I?d just stick to the above earlier wall of text, which is pretty much the closest thing we?ll ever get to confirmed positive evidence short of ZUN stating that?s how it works in an interview directly. ?and then I decided to go and type this last paragraph here anyways. Oops.)
I did find it misogynistic, but I'm not really sure how much you should read into it.
The bearded old gentleman is a classic capitalist, so you could see it as a Marxist piece. Then again he vaguely looks like a Jewish stereotype to me, which would make this piece anti-semitic.
Or perhaps it's a reference to the tale of Gilgamesh, where Enkidu the simple forest dweller was taught the ways of civilization by a woman and in the end paid for it with his life.
Interpretation is as great as it is useless. You can make it go in any direction.
In MAG-net's documentary about touhou, part 2, at 4:07, note that in ZUN's design ideas sketchbook, The portrait of Maribel is RIGHT UNDER Yukari. Coincidence?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sylvLk-hLPA
Um...that's Toyohime actually :VReally? Okay, I was mistaken then.
Well, it seems Yukari knows her science far too well, so she has to spin things around for Gensokyo people. And even if she did explain it too straightforwardly, she might not be understood at all.
Doesn't thie CiLR entry also imply that Yukari was actually the one who got caught back then?
?The youkai who had no way to return had to surrender. Since she was up against those that she could not win against.?
Actually, I find the whole thing kind of depressing. Gensokyo was supposed to be Maribel's paradise
Meanwhile Remilia (who apparently is another foil for Yukari now, if my previous paragraph is correct. More specifically, "the vampires") is enjoying Gensokyo to the fullest.
Ah well, it doesn't have to be that bad. In the end of SSiB, Yukari clearly won and was very happy about it.
Since you've brought Yukari's nostalgia for causing a stir on the moon, I think that it's quite conflicting that Yukari dislikes the Lunar Capital's quietness. So, Yukari would find the Lunar Capital uninteresting, and only be after what she's came to get from it, contrary to Maribel's desire to get to the Moon, without even knowing that there was a Lunar Capital on it. (the fact that people in her time can go to the moon makes me wonder about what was the lunarians' reactions towards the 'alien' humans.. considering the "impurity factor" -- which is understandable, for the sake of the lunarians' survival)
Anyways, Yukari may have known what's to enjoy hard work. She may have been a human, or a weak youkai who got stronger over time (cue Alice having her dolls do house chores for her), but still, I'm skeptical about jumping to the conclusion that Yukari was Maribel, for reasons mentioned before.
Lastly, I don't get all this "god complex" notion you speak of.. Yukari isn't unrivaled when it comes to being smart, and even with the power she's supposed to have, and the ability to calculate things better than Ran, there's still people who she runs away from. At least she should know to avoid earning their hatred for her own good, what about actually becoming a god, considering that there's really no indication pointing to that direction? Wouldn't Eirin, Yuyuko or the dragons have tried that already (if we're talking about unlikely behaviors)? Or even Yuka, if she's more like an embodiment of nature, as described in PMiSS?
(well, I can't vouch for what the dragons' (or Dragon) personality is like, but again, they're already gods anyways)
Yet the capital of the moon was even more technologically advanced. If so, the capital that exists at the other side of the moon should be very noisy. If they are to be experiencing a peaceful prosperity, that would only be a sign of decay. Or perhaps it could mean an incomparably advanced civilization.
Whether it was decay or pure heaven, I hated it. I needed the noise of the city.
?...That youkai opened a path to the moon on the fifteenth night as the paths of the sky showed, and decided to sneak in. ...Although this is a make-believe story.?
?Right.?
?There was little information about the Lunar Capital and one couldn?t start without going there first. The long awaited fifteenth night had come and that youkai jumped into the moon on the lake surface... What do you think she saw there??
With that in mind, thinking that the vampires were somewhere on this quiet moon causing a racket made me feel nostalgia.
?Yukari-sama, isn?t it about time that the vampire?s rocket got to the moon??
?I?m guessing that the moon is in quite the racket, then. Perhaps they?re learning their lesson by now??
(from http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Gensokyo )
672-707 A.D. - Taketori Monogatari, beginning of Imperishable Night backstory
Kaguya and Eirin flee from the moon and establish Eientei
Oni are generally jolly and love to drink, feast, and compete with humans in any kind of contest, from simple melee to drinking games. When they find a human that they like, they tempt that human into challenging them in any way the human desires. Should the human lose, they are abducted.
The oni find these games to be great fun, but humans don't appreciate the nature of that fun. Put simply, humans cannot compare to an oni's level of ability. Humans could enjoy themselves as much as the oni if they tried to reach the power level of their opponents, but they don't. Worse still, humans attempt to destroy the oni with underhanded tactics.
>> ""If we want to see the moon capital, maybe we should learn more about it.
About the ancient moon that has been forgotten for a long time.
About the dazzling moon capital of legend.
About the moon that symbolizes insanity.
Yes, knowledge makes the gap in the border clear.""
meanwhile, CiLR's 5th chapter has Yukari saying that she needed to go to the Lunar Capital in order to have more information about it..
sure, this could be what Maribel would've encountered when going to the moon. However..
(if Yukari was Maribel, why would she need to have to go to the moon two times prior to SSiB? Couldn't she have succeeded by the second time, "over 1000 years" ago?)
after reading Magical Astronomy's story (forgive my bad memory.. it enjoys sealing away bits of information that seem uninteresting at the time. For example, if Maribel trying to travel to the moon can be interpreted as an ambiguity -- between her becoming Yukari later, and her reliving Yukari's experiences without knowing it -- I don't bother to try testing my luck by guessing which is the correct answer), Maribel got interested in the Lunar Capital, while Yukari has planned to use Yuyuko to reach the Lunar Capital (and to use herself as a second decoy. Even the deceased familiar could serve towards that purpose, too, instead of actually doing the spying)
One other trait about ZUN is that he often doesn't show you every scene when he shows you a story. For example, SSiB ends with Yukari at Remilia's party, but what ZUN didn't reveal to you there was that Yukari apparently invited Eirin to it (which is what the final chapter of CiLR is about. ....I think. I was using google translate to translate a synopsis of it). So there could very well be a "never shown" seen of Yukari talking with Yuyuko about the moon capital, too. ...although again, Yuyuko "can't even remember what she had for breakfast", so... (that's probably an exageration, but still...)helped, especially since ZUN's the type of person who prefers the reader figure out things for themselves (considering that he uses "unreliable narrators" for so many things. He even uses them for things like the Perfect Cherry Blossom prologue, sometimes, as he's stated in an e-mail).http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/ZUN%27s_E-mails
I'd like more information about this "e-mail" (that would both confirm what you say about ZUN wanting people to "figure things by themselves", if the email was in japanese and there are people who can translate it, and serve as a source for information about whatever else was in the e-mail message), if you don't mind. Still, what about figuring out the wrong things? (the Red Herring possibilities? Even the games have them, both in their gameplay and dialogues)
btw I find it difficult for Eirin to have attacked the Apollo 13 by herself, because she was already on Earth by that time
she could be representing Apollo 13's failure, as well as representing the Hourai Elixir without having actually consumed it
I actually had Suika's competition habits in mind when I wrote that, and thought that common youkai would be able to enjoy their journey towards self-improvement. Anyways, at least Suika does enjoy hard work.. (while Yukari and Ran like to choose optimal paths)
Anyways, I mentioned Alice because since she can manipulate dolls, she no longer has to do house chores herself. Like how Ran usually does Yukari's jobs when the latter's asleep.
I thought that there was enough information elsewhere to make such a connection (Maribel being Yukari) so distant, that it wouldn't even be worth trying to work with (and, like I've sort of said before, who knows if ZUN wanted to reference Lafcadio Hearn/Koizumi Yakumo and, potentially, Saigyō Hōshi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saigy%C5%8D_H%C5%8Dshi), while having Maribel Hearn be a minor "Yakumo" clan member?)
after re-reading Sikieiki's PMiSS entry, it seems that I've forgotten the "..and particularly long-lived youkai have been helped by her at least once. " part. So it seems that she doesn't exterminate youkai on sight. That may be a possibility, that Yukari could win against Sikieiki, but has no reason for doing so (and that would actually be harmful to those who need her help).
this may be the case, for someone with such a complex, but I haven't seen Yukari as one of these people. Just when I think about how Yukari pisses people off (in reversible ways), she has a reason for doing so, which would be agreed with if people understood her.. (just thought that, for example, Yukari's success in SSiB means that she'll help the Eientei crew stay hidden from humans and lunarians, as a favor exchange. Just a theory, though.)
Yuka wanted to obtain "ultimate magic", it seems, dunno exactly *why*.. (was it MS, or Kioh Gyoku? I've forgotten already..)
Yuyuko, as you said, doesn't enjoy misusing her powers (and that's why she was made -- once more, I've forgotten where I've read this.. can do the research later, though -- the princess of Hakugyokurou ), and can understand Yukari better than most characters (she wouldn't be the type to help an oppressor, I think).
Eirin could be sought by the lunarians to *further* strengthen their military might.. (plus, it was Eirin's messing around with the moon's rotation that kept Yukari from escaping from the moon the "first time") .. that alone says a lot
Anyways, if Yukari tries to become a goddess, there's enough people to stop her. (more if you count Shinki, if she feels like it -- a goddess that doesn't require faith, and was able to create Makai, which means that she's older than Makai itself and that there's a possibility for her to create other worlds as well)
That was an awesome post, a great read. But I have a nagging question. Is it possible for Maribel to really go that far "over the edge", as you mentioned? The Maribel we know is possibly quiet, pretty meek, confused, maybe even outright terrified that she has these dreams. The Yukari we know is cunning, arrogant, all-knowing and downright snarky (though she does have good intentions). By the looks of it, something may have happened to completely change Maribel's perception. Maybe it was her losing Renko, or something large that she completely changed?
Again, WMG/epiletic trees
I've had this question in mind for a while, but... Were you partly inspired by Touhou Labyrinth's ending(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnrtPG1TCiI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnrtPG1TCiI)) to pursue the Maribel becomes Yukari theory? You see, while it was in my opinion that most would go for the parallel existences theory and such things, the 'Maribel is actually Yukari's past self who was able to jump back in time' isn't actually a theory that would jump to the mind easily at first and would come after taking in all the hints/facts/etc. that canon gives and lining them up just right.
I always had this nagging sense of deja vu when concerning your theory, but couldn't place it because I had never actually heard it from anyone before. It was only until some time ago that I remember/found why it felt familiar. It was because of that ending (read Yukari's exchange with Mari and the exchange with Rinnosuke afterward). So, were you inspired partly from it? If so, bravo, bravo. You took something that seemed farfetched and placed it to plausible(maybe even more).
Once, I've read about people making stories or fanfics about fighting game series, and how they were susceptible to being "corrected" by the sequels, later.
Oh ho ho. I see I've found yet another fan of my Street Fighter Plot Guide. *Dan Hibiki thumbs up*
Alternative response: Street Fighter: The Movie: The Game. It's the game based on the movie of the game!
Dunno about the other Wikipedia articles much, but as long as there are citations for sources, and there are enough maintainers for the articles themselves, the articles there are as reliable to me as the Touhou wikia's. So far, there weren't conflicting informations between the two sites about these two games, and I have yet to see how PoFV was meant to be the last Touhou game (rather than ZUN needing a break).. care to explain?
As for why I've cited Wikipedia, it's because it featured easily accessible information (regarding development processes) which is usually not seen on the Touhou Wikia. And Wikipedia isn't meant to be too much comprehensive and exhaust the matter about an article theme.. judging from the messages about sections needing "clean up" and such.. (example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Matrix)) ..so the information there's summarized as possible, when possible. I'd use the Touhou Wikia instead, if needed.
(from Wikipedia's MoF article) After making Phantasmagoria of Flower View, ZUN decided to wait one year before making another game to see if the Touhou fandom would die down. Conversely, the Touhou fandom continued to grow, and ZUN decided to make the next game.[4]
(from the interview translation hosted in gensokyo.org, which was cited in the above mentioned Wikipedia article) After finishing PoFV, ZUN decided he needed to take a break. He was wondering if he should make another Touhou game, and thought he?d wait until the number of fans died down a bit. The fanbase only increased, however, and he ended up making MoF anyway.
>> Um... re-read my post. You haven't figured out exactly where Wikipedia is getting its information from (and why it's thus more second-hand)
I thought that, for the most part, the Touhou-related Wikipedia entries were maintained by most of the same people as the Touhou Wiki's, as you can see whenever a new game's released? The people doing the updating, in this case, aren't strangers to the series.
>> EDIT: Okay, I've read the wikipedia article. It's actually not Wikipedia that misread the intervview. It's that you misread Wikipedia.
that's right, however
isn't untrue, just not clear enough.. as in..
(note that this "another Touhou game" may very well have been StB, which needed PoFV for helping introduce Aya)
We're given a lot of strangely convenient things about Maribel and Yukari, some canon, some not.
And that's what makes this kind of thing so fun. I've seen a number of continuities where things looked this way; some turned out to be true, some didn't. I doubt we'll ever get an official word on the matter, but it's fun to speculate.
Far as Yukari being Maribel, I personally don't think they're the same person, though I think you, Tiamat, have put together a quite plausible theory on how they might be. I do believe some kind of link exists between them and I'd be very surprised if that turns out to not be the case.
Shinki is Alice's Mother?
Rika and Rikako?
Rengeteki is Akyu? (THIS ONE IS STILL WTF NO WAY)
Like what if Yukari likes to hang out with Reimu since she vaguely looks like Renko!?
This theorizing is PRETTY DAMN fun!
8D
The answer would lie in who can interpret ZUN's thoughts better, and once more, I'm not going to try to guess the correct answer, if it can't be obtained.
add another: did Nue appear in LLS's Extra Stage?Considering that Yuka herself turns into a ball of light several times during her boss fight, it's pretty assumable that the LLS extra ball of light is still just Yuka. I highly, highly doubt even ZUN would be thinking THAT far ahead.
Considering that Yuka herself turns into a ball of light several times during her boss fight, it's pretty assumable that the LLS extra ball of light is still just Yuka. I highly, highly doubt even ZUN would be thinking THAT far ahead.
Either that or it's just some random midboss crap he made up. LLS and MS have some pretty me
ssed up midbosses, after all.
Just to make sure, this is trying to prove the Yukari was Maribel, not Maribel and Yukari are the same at the same time, right?
Or both knowing crazy Gensokyo time shit.
since I have little time left before going to work, some few words:
- the other possibility (Yukari and Maribel being different people) has never been disproved, and probably never will
- Yukari's deeds on the moon are always cited as "over 1000 years ago", and once more, why would she need to fail once on purpose, if she already visited the moon as Maribel?
- though you may speculate on Yukari being Maribel's future version, it can't be proved, either.. and there's more people other than Yukari who can go to and from worlds, if you consider Urashima Taro, who got to the Lunar Capital unintentionally (as he wanted to go to the undersea's Dragon Palace), so indications (once more) do not necessarily mean the way you interpret them.
EDIT: Please ignore the "spell card comments by ZUN" remarks in this post. They were actually written by wiki editors trying to make them ZUN-like (they sure managed to fool me!)
...that said, I'm 75% certain that the guy who wrote the comments for Yukari's spell cards long ago came to the same conclusion I did about these cards.
I was actually linked to this thread from a different site, as I have not visited MotK for a long time. But I really enjoyed reading through your research here! Chalk me up as another person who now believes in your same-person theory.
Yukari could also be trying to do what she accomplished in SSiB/CiLR, when Yukari wanted a "residential tax" from the new lunarian residents. Also, there's another possibility, that the youkai stopping to attempt to expand their territory would be an unforeseen effect, and that Yukari didn't expect to lose in the moon. Once more, no definite answers.
-Rather than Suwako being a human turned goddess, it's more likely that she is a youkai turned goddess, or rather that the native gods were basically youkai. Read through the win quotes in Th12.3 and you will see that this is one of the major things ZUN is alluding to. Heck, Byakuren flat out states that gods and youkai are the same thing in UFO. Both are dependent on the existence of humans, hence why the youkai/human balance in Gensokyo is so vital. The only difference seems to be that, whereas youkai depend on the fear of humans, gods depend on faith from humans. But both fear and faith imply a belief in something. It's the belief that's important. I would also suggest that this is why the greatest youkai like Yukari and the Oni seem to be as powerful as gods themselves. Gods aren't inherently superior to youkai in ZUN's narrative, look at the Aki sisters for proof of that (of course, beings like the Dragon Gods and Shikieiki are a little different, as they seem to be part of the inherent order of things).
While it's possible that ZUN had these stories written in advance of PCB's release, what strikes me as more likely is that the game came out first and that these little references to those spellcards were snuck into the texts later on as a hint of sorts.
I'm not so sure I can agree with some of your more speculative arguments though. Stuff like Maribel being sent back into a parallel timeline by Sakuya/Kaguya/Eirin does strike me as being a little farfetched and probably a little over-elaborate in a narrative sense given what I've read of ZUN's stuff (not to mention it'd be impossible to figure out without Wild Mass Guessing).
I don't see Yukari as having a God Complex either, she is a selfish character but when it comes down to it she is doing what she can to preserve Gensokyo's balance. Everything she's done, from banishing the evil youkai and spirits beneath the earth to devising the spell card rules (haven't read your thread on the spellcard rules, Tiamat, but as you said Yukari is obviously their true author)
(side note: If I'm wrong and Yukari does have a God Complex, and is conspiring something evil at the end of SWR (well, she's definitely conpsiring SOMETHING), then it definitely has something to do with her comment to Reisen during her scenario: "I won't let you invesitage my shrine." -- makes you wonder just what she means when she calls the Hakurei Shrine 'her' shrine, doesn't it?)
-Originally, with MoF I thought ZUN was setting up a conflict of sorts between Kanako/Sanae and Yukari/Reimu (modernization of Gensokyo vs the old ways). SA seemed to confirm my beliefs, but now that Th12.3 is out I'm not so sure anymore. Yukari seems to be reasonably happy and at ease, judging from the various victory quotes that have been translated. If she was truly concerned about the mountain gods recent behavior, I don't think she would be behaving as though Gensokyo has just entered a new era of peace. However, Reimu, with her sense of intuition, notes: "Don't you think it's peaceful lately? Feels like the calm before the storm." Hmm.
-Leaving aside whatever similarities may or may not exist between Yukari/Ran and Suwako/Kanako, the parallels between Yukari/Reimu and Toyohime/Yorihime I thought were extremely obvious. Yukari and Toyohime both manipulate boundaries (I'm impressed someone else noticed Toyohime has this ability!) and Yorihime and Reimu who are less powerful both have the power to summon gods. Basically Toyohime and Yorihime are the Lunar Yukari/Reimu. And Toyohime and Yukari can't be the same person, most of all if Maribel and Yukari are the same person, because Toyohime obtained her power over boundaries after talking with Eirin. Read this passage from CLiR Chapter 3:
Yeah, I'd say that one of these explanations is more likely. The idea I got from SSiB was that Yukari was invading the moon for the same reason she did the first time, which was to pilfer the lunar sage's treasure. This is implied a couple of times in the story towards the end, and Yuyuko seems like she might be alluding to it as early as Chapter 4 (certainly, Yuyuko knew all about the first lunar invasion and did not need any prompting from Yukari to know why Yukari was going there a second time, this should say it all really).
-Rather than Suwako being a human turned goddess, it's more likely that she is a youkai turned goddess, or rather that the native gods were basically youkai. Read through the win quotes in Th12.3 and you will see that this is one of the major things ZUN is alluding to
-Tiamat's explanation for why Keine's history-devouring powers do not work on Yukari is interesting, and may very well be true, but I had considered another possibility. First of all, Keine's powers are not as immense as they seem to be at first (we're talking about regular Keine here, not ex-Keine). She does not have the ability to alter the past. Rather, all she can do is change the history of a given thing. History is not the same thing as Reality, history is just human's perception of the past which may or may not be correct, and can never be true in an absolute sense. ZUN (through Rinnosuke) talks about his views on history in one of the CoLA chapters. Therefore, Keine's power is just an illusion. Yukari is able to see through this illusion. Now whether this is because Yukari knows Gensokyo's true history or if it's just because she's a high ranking youkai I don't know. It may be that other long-lived or powerful youkai can see through her illusion as well.
You know, since Yukari and Yuyuko are friends, I sometimes wish or wonder if Renko was actually Yuyuko..but it`s kind of silly to think, maybe? XD
Personally, I believe that Yukari only decided to invade the moon today for the tax because Eirin and Kaguya have stopped hiding and now are actual residents of Gensokyo (as opposed to hidden people in frozen eternity that no one ever interacts with). Thus, I personally believe her trip to the moon 1,000 years ago must have been for a DIFFERENT reason than that.