Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: Momizi Inubashiri on May 29, 2009, 06:41:01 AM
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my frends and i have talked it over alot
the game (and wiki) say Momizi but a few others say its Momiji (other frends)
also (zi) is not in the japanese language from what i hurd. but if thats so then why is it speld like that.
anyhelp
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ざ za | じ ji | ず zu | ぜ ze | ぞ zo | じゃ ja | じゅ ju | じょ jo
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana)
So yeah, Zun mis-romanized it. And it's not the first thing he's mis-romanized (like Syameimaru).
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What if he WANTED her to be called "Momizi" but he couldn't spell it like that in Japanese?
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ざ za | じ ji | ず zu | ぜ ze | ぞ zo | じゃ ja | じゅ ju | じょ jo
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana)
So yeah, Zun mis-romanized it. And it's not the first thing he's mis-romanized (like Syameimaru).
No, Momizi and Syameimaru would be in perfect alignment with Kunrei-shiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunrei-shiki_romanization#Kunrei-shiki_spellings_of_kana), the official romanisation scheme for Japan.
Hepburn is not correct, it's just intuitive for Westerners.
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ZUN's greatest romanization is Marlin from PoFV hands down. If you can possibly explain how that came about, you are my hero.
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err... Maru (as in ball or orb) and Rin? (as in cold or round?)
rounded ball ZE GODS!
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Isn't the same problem with Tei and Tewi?
I asked the same question once in #SM about Sanae. Kotiya(wiki) or Kochiya(danbooru). So yea confusion.
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Isn't the same problem with Tei and Tewi?
Tei and Tewi is somewhat different. It's about "wi" being deemed obsolete, and was dropped off completely. Now "i" is put in its place, giving Tei.
Another mis-romanization example would be Mokou's (Huziwara no Mokou // Fujiwara no Mokou).
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Sanae's case, I would have no idea.
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while we are at it.
is Keine said like:
KANE
or KAY NE
or KANYE
?
(in during daft punk music)
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while we are at it.
is Keine said like:
KANE
or KAY NE
or KANYE
?
(in during daft punk music)
STRONGER!
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STRONGER!
My fav music is robot rock though ... D=
actually... dang! I need to hear daft punk now... Been a while without listening to it :'(
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Except we need to kill that F'er several times. And also the Daft Punk guys as well for getting on fours and enjoying some "love" from him.
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while we are at it.
is Keine said like:
KANE
or KAY NE
or KANYE
?
(in during daft punk music)
Watch the latest M-1 GP of Touhou. Her name is pronounced there according to japanese.
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Both, at the same time!
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I tend to go with whatever is the first one I personally encountered, which is usually the first one ZUN used, and/or however it's pronounced ("SHAMEIMARU!").
Though I do know one player on a MUSH who goes by "Mokou Fuziwara." I call her Fuzzy.
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Although I used myself to say Momiji instead of Momizi because I keep seeing it everywhere more often than the other, I believe the first name I saw characters depicted with (such as Kotiya, Shameimaru and such) are the most commonly accepted ones and thus, the ones that deserve being said. Same for Tewi. Tewi remains very old, and when she was born, the hiragana "wi" was still widely used...
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I tend to go with whatever is the first one I personally encountered, which is usually the first one ZUN used, and/or however it's pronounced ("SHAMEIMARU!").
I have to say, I did the same thing.
Except with Komachi, Tei, and Momiji. (I say "Onozuka" instead of "Onoduka", the latter being used in SWR)
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Kunrei-shiki romanization (Momizi) makes sense to native Japanese speakers because it follows their phonological system. Hepburn romanization (Momiji) makes sense to English speakers because it gives us a better idea what things are supposed to sound like.
Or, basically, that syllable is a "zi" that sounds like a "ji".
"Fuziwara" is kinda silly, though, since it's switching romanizations in the middle of a name. But it doesn't really make much practical difference unless you're actually trying to make yourself understood in spoken Japanese. Personally, I've been trying to switch myself over to consistent romanizations for most names in Touhou... but I don't think I could ever get used to writing "Gensoukyou", so hey.
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im going to go with what Hieda no Aya sead
thanks for the help guys
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...But I thought I was saying they're both right. Huh.
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I guess this means I should upload the rest of my voice clips to Touhouwiki.
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So that is you slowly uploading all those clips?
You have a sexy voice.
I say it Momiji just b/c I like "J" more than "Z".
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its Momizi to me, as well as Shameimaru
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Kunrei-shiki romanization (Momizi) makes sense to native Japanese speakers because it follows their phonological system. Hepburn romanization (Momiji) makes sense to English speakers because it gives us a better idea what things are supposed to sound like.
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"Momiji" is how it's pronounced, "Momizi" is how it would be spelled (to be consistent with the rest of "S-vowel-dakuten").
"Shameimaru" is how it's pronounced, and it's spelled "Shi-chiisai ya-me-i-ma-ru" in Japanese, so it can be spelled "Syameimaru" as well. But the second romanization system isn't helpful for non-Japanese speakers that don't understand the pronunciation rules.
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"Fuziwara" is kinda silly, though, since it's switching romanizations in the middle of a name. But it doesn't really make much practical difference unless you're actually trying to make yourself understood in spoken Japanese.
Indeed. Regardless, it still allows me to call her "Fuzzy."
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Indeed. Regardless, it still allows me to call her "Fuzzy."
That is an undeniable advantage to that method.
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Pixiv fixed my tags. They call her Momiji '3'
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momizi sounds better because it doesn't sound japanese
but what the hell is a "misromanization", I thought there were a million ways to romanize something
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So yeah, Zun mis-romanized it. And it's not the first thing he's mis-romanized (like Syameimaru).
For the record:
Fujiwara
Gengetsu
Kochiya
Momiji
Shameimaru
Shikieiki
And I suspect Kurodani should be Kurotani.
Yes, ZUN makes mistakes.
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That is an undeniable advantage to that method.
except the 'fu' in both words are pronounced differently.
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but what the hell is a "misromanization", I thought there were a million ways to romanize something
Hold on there's an ant on my screen.
True, but there lies the problem.
Going back to the example of Mokou; I read it as Fujiwara. Others, differently (see: previous page). Even though the romanizations are correct in terms of pronunciation (accurate), the problem is really, the sheer amount of possible romanizations (ranging from 1+). This causes confusion between people, as people would be referring to the same item (e.g. a person), but using a different name. To the point where we all accept the multitude of names and accept them all, that is.
When I used the term "mis-romanization", it was subjective (e.g. I think that is incorrect, and this is correct; while somebody else thinks the opposite; and in the reality of things, both are correct).
I really can't explain any further than that, so... >_>
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The disclaimer to all this, and the really distressing thing here, is that I don't actually know Japanese. I just really like linguistics. Oh, christ, I can't believe how into this I'm getting.
momizi sounds better because it doesn't sound japanese
Why's it better for a Japanese name to not sound Japanese?
And I suspect Kurodani should be Kurotani.
Well, that's not a romanization issue at least, as the hiragana spelling given for her name uses "da". Reading kanji names is confusing and not entirely within my grasp, but from what I can gather, there may well be a "tani" in there. However, it's common in Japanese for a consonant sound to gain voicing (or rather for the kana to gain a dakuten) when you attach something to the front of it. That is, there's a "kami" in "origami" and a "sushi" in "nigirizushi". Thus, "Kurodani" is probably fine. On the other hand, reading kanji names is even confusing for a lot of Japanese people, and there are cases where the voicing doesn't apply, so it is possible for something like that to be a mistake...
And, after all:but what the hell is a "misromanization", I thought there were a million ways to romanize something
Maybe not a million, but certainly more than one. We haven't even gotten into vowels here -- I don't know how we ended up with "Yuugi" alongside "Yuka".
except the 'fu' in both words are pronounced differently.
Ahhhh, but there's an obscure and ancient rule by which a high vowel can ignore a tendency to lower, or vice versa, in the case of diminutizing a name: when you're just fooling around, you can do whatever the hell you want.
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so in other words you're using a rule to explain that you don't need the rules
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In other words, I was largely making fun of myself. ;) Anything worth doing is worth doing with a sense of humor, hey? In fact, so're the things that aren't worth doing.
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The way I see it, is that if you're going to romanize something, it should be done with the intention of letting non-Japanese speakers see the name and be able to pronounce it reasonably close to how it should be said. Otherwise, just leave it in Japanese. For another example, if you had no idea how to speak Japanese, what would be a better way to say 東方, "toho" or "touhou"?
Of course, saying that here really won't affect anything, and I still have no idea what ZUN was thinking when he made Cirno's name.
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from what I gather, the japanese have little follies just like this, and they laugh at us just like we laugh at them
you may as well use touhou, because toho already uses toho (fyi: that is how I figured out how to pronounce the thing)
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Wikipedia would just spell it Tōhō; they seem always use the macron.
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Yeah, that's how they spell 'youkai' too, as 'yōkai'
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Wikipedia would just spell it Tōhō; they seem always use the macron.
Is that sō?
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Is that sō?
WIN.