Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Beyond the Border~ => Rumia's Party Games => Mystia's Stored Games => Topic started by: SB on January 31, 2015, 07:34:02 PM

Title: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: SB on January 31, 2015, 07:34:02 PM
RULES:
0. As the host, I have the right to edit these rules at any time. If this happens, you will be informed.
1. The game is NOC, meaning you don't talk about the game outside of this game thread while it is ongoing.
2. If you're dead, don't talk to anyone who doesn't have access to the graveyard quicktopic. You can ask to be informed, but please don't spoil the rest of the graveyard.
3. Screenshotting and quoting any information given by the host outside of the thread well result in a modkill.
4. Editing posts is banned, although depending on the severity of the edit punishment may be more lax.
5. Should you be modkilled through any fault of your own, you automatically lose. Tactical modkills are even lamer and will be dealt with accordingly.
6. The game starts on Day 1.
7. Nights last for 24 hours, days last for 72 hours. You may not talk during the night phase.
8. If your action fails or is redirected, you will be informed as such.
9. A hammer is required to lynch. It takes over 50% of the total votes in order to hammer. Failure to achieve a lynch twice will result in universal loss.
10. *YLO will not be announced, as you should be able to figure it out for yourselves.
11. Play to win, but don't spoil the enjoyment of others.

SETUP INFO:
There are 7 townies and 2 mafia members. By default, everyone is a vanilla. Unless stated otherwise, the mafia members can perform the factional kill and use their roles in the same night.

Your role in this game is determined by the drafting process, and I'm stealing the explanation from the mafiascum wiki (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Draft) because it can be kind of difficult to explain.

Quote from: Drafting
1. Each player sends in two numbers to the moderator, between 1 and 10 in the format (x,x).
2. Which ever player sends in the lowest unique first number (i.e. no other player sent in the same first number) gets the first pick.
3. Whoever picked the second-lowest unique number goes second, up until there are no more unique first numbers.
4. After there are no more unique first numbers, the next pick goes to the person with the lowest first number that matched only one other first number, but has a lower number than that other person. After he picks, that other person picks.
5. After the first tied pair picks, the second-lowest tied pair picks, and who picks first is based again on whoever has the lowest second number.
6. After all of the two-way ties are resolved, the three-way-ties are again resolved in a similar fashion, based again on who picked the lowest second number, then the second-lowest second number, etc.
7. If anyone picks *both* the same numbers as anyone else, they are bumped entirely to the end of the list.
If multiple pairs are bumped to the end of the list, the pair with the lower first numbers picked goes before the pair with the higher first numbers picked.
8. Of each pair bumped to the end of the list, they must each roll again separately and the draft operates recursively.

Send me the numbers after you sign up in thread so that setting up the game takes less time. You will learn your alignment as well as the drafting order (as it will be made public) after signups are filled and all alignments go out, and you well send in the role you want then. The mafia may converse pregame while making their choices.

The roles in this game are:

Quote from: Tracker
USER, you have selected the Tracker.

During the night, you may ##Track a player to learn who they visited, but not what they did.
Quote from: Roleclop
USER, you have selected the Roleclop.

During the night, you may ##Investigate a player to learn their role, but not their alignment.
Quote from: Doctor
USER, you have selected the Doctor.

During the night, you may ##Protect a player to prevent all attempts on their life that night. You may not self-target.

Quote from: Roleblocker
USER, you have selected the Roleblocker.

During the night, you may ##Roleblock a player to prevent them from carrying out any night actions that night.
Quote from: Neighbourizer
USER, you have selected the Neighbourizer.

During the night, you may ##Neighbourize a player to open a private quicktopic with them outside of the thread. All neighbours will be added to the same quicktopic, which will close when you die.
Quote
USER, you have selected the Jack of all Trades.

During the night, you may ##Strongman Kill another player in place of your factional kill, ensuring that the target dies despite any attempts made to protect them or interfere with your action. Alternatively, you may ##Ninja Kill in place of your factional kill, allowing you to kill a player without being seen by any Trackers targetting you. You may only use these abilities once in the game.

The priority list is as follows (with the Strongman first):

-Strongman
-Roleblocker
-Doctor
-Factional Kill
-Neighbourizer
-Roleclop
-Tracker

Alive [3]:
3. Sky Paladin, Vanilla Townie, Survived Day 4.
6. Zakeri, Vanilla Townie, Survived Day 4.
7. Mitsuki, Town Tracker, Survived Day 4.

Dead [6]:
1. Dormio, Town Jack of all Trades, was lynched Day 1.
9. ActionDan, Vanilla Townie, was killed Night 1.
2. Dr Rawr, Mafia Goon, was lynched Day 2.
5. Raikaria,  Vanilla Townie, was lynched Day 3.
8. Bard, Town Neighbouriser, was killed Night 3.
4. CF7 Shadoweh, Mafia Doctor, was lynched Day 4.

Drafting order is in the next post.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: SB on January 31, 2015, 07:39:41 PM
Drafting order:

1.) CF7 (2,4)
2.) Mitsuki (6,1)
3.) Zakeri (9,10)
4.) Dan: (1,1)
5.) Dormio (1,2)
6.) Sky Paladin (4,5)
7.) Rawr: (4,8)
8/9.) Raikaria/Bard (3,7)

Since I just realised there's no reason for Raikaria or Bard NOT to pick (1,1), they get to play rock paper scissors against each other to resolve it. Send in orders along with your role pm (and preferably enough for 3 rounds in case you end up tying).

The drafting period lasts for 48 hours. Anyone who fails to send in their pick will be turned into a vanilla.

Sending out alignment pms now.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: SB on January 31, 2015, 07:58:03 PM
I'm done sending. If you didn't get yours for some reason, yell at me.

Drafting phase ends in just over 48 hours (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150202T20&p0=136&msg=Drafting+Phase+End&csz=1).
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on January 31, 2015, 09:54:36 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: ActionDan on January 31, 2015, 09:58:13 PM
*snicker*
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: CF7 on January 31, 2015, 10:40:10 PM
Do you believe in  magic?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: Sky_Paladin on January 31, 2015, 11:30:27 PM
I'm confused.  Doesn't the public announcement of the draft order give away who the town power roles are going to be? 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: SB on January 31, 2015, 11:38:43 PM
If I wasn't clear enough on this, the drafting order is the order in which you select one of the roles from the op. If it's already taken, you become a vanilla.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: Raikaria on February 01, 2015, 09:24:58 AM
A tie for last place? How exciting!
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: Mitsuki on February 01, 2015, 11:40:43 AM
Yay games starting when I'm at Vhaltz's place. I'll be here until the 8th and doing more important things than playing mafia (like playing Fire Emblem), so don't expect me to be 100% active or something.
Altough let's face it, I'll probably end up ignoring Vhaltz for mafia. SORRY VHALTZ </3
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: SB on February 01, 2015, 08:31:39 PM
Bard/Raikaria: You both picked the exact same thing in RPS.  So uh... send in five more rounds and please don't pick exactly the same thing this time thanks.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: PX on February 01, 2015, 08:34:43 PM
The most intense RPS match for last place
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 01, 2015, 08:36:15 PM
The stakes have never been lower.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: CF7 on February 01, 2015, 09:05:50 PM
Bard/Raikaria: You both picked the exact same thing in RPS.  So uh... send in five more rounds and please don't pick exactly the same thing this time thanks.
That's just too funny.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: Raikaria on February 01, 2015, 09:13:53 PM
Bard/Raikaria: You both picked the exact same thing in RPS.  So uh... send in five more rounds and please don't pick exactly the same thing this time thanks.

Seriously?

To wit... I picked Rock-Rock-Rock.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: Bardiche on February 02, 2015, 01:38:11 AM
Seriously?

To wit... I picked Rock-Rock-Rock.

I picked the exact same thing!
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: SB on February 02, 2015, 08:00:17 PM
Drafting phase is over. Sending out roles now.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: SB on February 02, 2015, 08:15:00 PM
EDIT: Raikaria beat Bard in RPS and as a result was eighth to draft.

All roles are out, so the game can start.

Day 1 begins. With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. You have 72 hours to decide on a lynch.

Deadline. (http://Deadline.)
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: CF7 on February 02, 2015, 08:24:58 PM
I forgot how to play mafia. It was so long ago... Anyway.
##Vote Dormio
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 02, 2015, 08:42:31 PM
I was going to vote for whoever was #1 on the playerlist but then I realized that I was #1 on the playerlist so that plan couldn't possibly work out for me.
##Vote CF7 OMGUS-
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: CF7 on February 02, 2015, 09:08:29 PM
Oh, wow. Didn't expect an OMGUS this early. Dormio is scum. Lynch him. Lynch him right now.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 02, 2015, 09:10:51 PM
CF7 and Dormio for scumteam, game solved

##Vote: Dormio since in addition to being scum he plays videogames
"you are the same" no, I play Fire Emblem
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 02, 2015, 09:15:47 PM
What have you got against video games?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 02, 2015, 09:16:36 PM
##Vote: Dormio
Choochoo.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: ActionDan on February 02, 2015, 09:29:23 PM
##vote: mitsuki

Raikaria and bard are not scum together
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 02, 2015, 09:37:25 PM
Raikaria and bard are not scum together
is it because if the rock paper scissors?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 02, 2015, 09:39:21 PM
Dan is probably town, I thought the exact same thing at some point (and then I forgot about it). I don't see why scum would just go and bring that up anyways.
Anyways I wouldn't take that as a 100% accurate tell since SB may have thought about that and decided to make Raikaria/Bard untie the standard way anyways but yeah at least one of them is likely town.

... actually I should probably explain the logic. It wouldn't be necessary for Raikaria and Bardiche to untie if they were both scum and even then they wouldn't go and pick the same.

cut by Rawr
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: ActionDan on February 02, 2015, 10:22:08 PM
@rawr: yes. 

Sb made a slight mistake in publically announcing that they tied instead of pming them privately.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 02, 2015, 10:35:35 PM
#Vote Bard

RPS Shenanigans delayed RVS Shenanigans so he gets my RVS. Also 3rd on the wagon ZOMG.

Raikaria and bard are not scum together

Good observation.

And yeah SB has made a slight booboo in the handling of the tie. But I'm not gonna complain about a mistake that is pro-town.

Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 02, 2015, 10:36:34 PM
Oh and if I ever start saying/typing ZOMG in a not obviously sarcastic fashion; please take me out back and out me down like some shaggy dog.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 02, 2015, 10:51:00 PM
out me down
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 02, 2015, 11:27:09 PM
I think posting the drafting order was a mistake, period.  We know that players near the top of the list could probably pick any role that they wanted. 

MOST LIKELY TO BE ROLED TOWN
1.) CF7
2.) Mitsuki
3.) Zakeri
4.) Dan
5.) Dormio
6.) Sky Paladin
7.) Rawr
8/9.) Raikaria/Bard
LEAST LIKELY TO BE ROLED TOWN

Can we assume town only picked town roles?  Can we assume scum only picked scum roles? 

We can probably assume that SB would have played off a tie even if both Raikaria/Bard were town/scum, since to do otherwise would have players asking "Why aren't Raikaria/Bard rerolling?" when their number pick was revealed.  So I think it's inconclusive. 

Raikaria's hasty vote:  I want to hear more about this. 
Quote
RPS Shenanigans delayed RVS Shenanigans so he gets my RVS. Also 3rd on the wagon ZOMG.

If this was the reason for your vote, you should have voted Bard, since Dan was not involved in RPS shenanigans. 

Why the Dan vote?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 02, 2015, 11:36:29 PM
lol Sky Paladin, alignments were assigned before roles were chosen
Sky Paladin is probably town since scum would know they were scum beforehand, scum players were supposed to be able to comunicate while choosing their role. I don't think he'd fake that logic as scum, it's the kind of thing that I don't see many people coming up with. I think there's something I'm not getting in his logic though, but the post is townie as fuck anyways so

another step closer to CF7 + Dormio scumteam, now I just have to believe
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: SB on February 03, 2015, 12:44:23 AM
Votecount 1.1
Dormio (3): CF7, Mitsuki, Bard (L-2)
CF7 (1): Dormio
Mitsuki (1): ActionDan
Bard (1): Raikaria

Not Voting (3): Dr Rawr, Zakeri, Sky Paladin

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. You have 67.5 hours left in the phase. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150205T2015&p0=136&msg=Day+1+Deadline&csz=1)
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 03, 2015, 03:07:57 AM
Raikaria and Bard are the scumteam.
They threw away their role chances so that we would never consider lynching both of them together.

##Vote: Bardiche
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: ActionDan on February 03, 2015, 03:54:34 AM
I don't think he'd fake that logic as scum, it's the kind of thing that I don't see many people coming up with. I think there's something I'm not getting in his logic though, but the post is townie as fuck anyways so

I do tbh and I don't like the post.

I do find your post about townie though.

Sooo

##unvote
##Vote Sky Paladin 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: CF7 on February 03, 2015, 08:04:03 AM
Hum. Not sure what to make out of this so far.
Raikaria's hasty vote:  I want to hear more about this. 
If this was the reason for your vote, you should have voted Bard, since Dan was not involved in RPS shenanigans. 

Why the Dan vote?
Raikaria voted Bard actually. Not idea how you confused the two.

another step closer to CF7 + Dormio scumteam, now I just have to believe
Let me tell you a secret. We are!

Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 03, 2015, 08:13:06 AM
Everything posted between this and my last post has only helped confirm my suspicions.

Considering neither Bard nor Rai had the chance to post anything, this comment says everything and nothing at the same time.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 03, 2015, 08:19:41 AM
Typos please. O is right next to P.

I think posting the drafting order was a mistake, period.  We know that players near the top of the list could probably pick any role that they wanted. 

MOST LIKELY TO BE ROLED TOWN
1.) CF7
2.) Mitsuki
3.) Zakeri
4.) Dan
5.) Dormio
6.) Sky Paladin
7.) Rawr
8/9.) Raikaria/Bard
LEAST LIKELY TO BE ROLED TOWN

Can we assume town only picked town roles?  Can we assume scum only picked scum roles? 

We can probably assume that SB would have played off a tie even if both Raikaria/Bard were town/scum, since to do otherwise would have players asking "Why aren't Raikaria/Bard rerolling?" when their number pick was revealed.  So I think it's inconclusive. 

Raikaria's hasty vote:  I want to hear more about this. 
If this was the reason for your vote, you should have voted Bard, since Dan was not involved in RPS shenanigans. 

Why the Dan vote?

Wait what.

#Vote Bard

RPS Shenanigans delayed RVS Shenanigans so he gets my RVS. Also 3rd on the wagon ZOMG.

Good observation.

And yeah SB has made a slight booboo in the handling of the tie. But I'm not gonna complain about a mistake that is pro-town.

Where do I vote Dan?

And also nice list with nothing backing it up. What makes you so unlikely to have rolled town? What makes you know who rolled town? What makes me and Bard least likely to be town?

#Unvote
#Vote: Sky Paladin


Voting me for completely false reasons and making a fancy list with no evident logic. Why would he put himself as 6th least likely to be town, for one?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 03, 2015, 08:20:31 AM
Oh wait he doesn't vote me, so let's just change that 'voting me' to 'spouting nonsense'.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: SB on February 03, 2015, 08:43:55 AM
Votecount 1.2
Dormio (3): CF7, Mitsuki, Bard (L-2)
Sky Paladin (2): ActionDan, Raikaria
CF7 (1): Dormio
Bard (1): Zakeri

Not Voting (2): Dr Rawr, Sky Paladin

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. You have 59.5 hours left in the phase. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150205T2015&p0=136&msg=Day+1+Deadline&csz=1)
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 03, 2015, 08:44:42 AM
I thought you voted Dan.  It's probably the same way you thought I voted you. 

##vote Mitsuki

Mitsuki's post after mine (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162071.html#msg1162071) is an empty content post.  Worse, it attempts to present content. 

What she could have commented on from my post: 
The list I drafted up. 
Whether or not town could have picked scum roles (and remain town aligned). 
More on Raikaria/Bard. 
Me asking Raikaria to further address his post. 

What Mitsuki commented on:
Alignments were assigned before drafting -> I said this. 

This
Quote
scum players were supposed to be able to comunicate while choosing their role.
There's no mention or even implication of this in the rules.  How did you come to this conclusion? 

Quote
I don't think he'd fake that logic as scum, it's the kind of thing that I don't see many people coming up with.
"I agree with his logic."

Quote
I think there's something I'm not getting in his logic though
"But I don't understand it".  So why agree with it? 

I also inherently dislike an arbitrary town clear based on my questioning of Raikaria that was, apparently, flawed. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 03, 2015, 08:48:21 AM
Raikaria
Quote
And also nice list with nothing backing it up. What makes you so unlikely to have rolled town? What makes you know who rolled town? What makes me and Bard least likely to be town?

Do you understand the purpose of 'draft mafia' is that certain players get to pick first.  That means the players who picked first, and were announced to be first, are likely to have town power roles. 

Quote
Voting me for completely false reasons and making a fancy list with no evident logic. Why would he put himself as 6th least likely to be town, for one?

There are valid reasons.  Perhaps you could explain how I am wrong? 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: CF7 on February 03, 2015, 05:55:12 PM
Don't really like Raikaria's post where he votes for Sky_P. Espescially his comment after that, where he notices that Sky_P didn't really vote for him.
Speaking of. Despite all the rolespec, Sky_P shows real effort and looks town to me.
Zak said that nothing happenned, and that's it.

Pretty much anyone else is not here, so not much to say.

I'll leave my vote on Dormio for the moment.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 03, 2015, 07:02:25 PM
What Mitsuki commented on:
Alignments were assigned before drafting -> I said this.

No, I thought you said the opposite. Still getting town vibes from that post and the one where he votes me.
Also I posted to say that I'm townreading you, if that's an empty post then lol

"I agree with his logic."

I wasn't saying I agree with your logic, I was saying that I thought it came from town.

So basically: I thought SkyPal was townie for not knowing that scum could communicate during pregame (not a relevant point anymore). He's still townie because gut.

There's no mention or even implication of this in the rules.  How did you come to this conclusion?

It's written here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,14201.msg1157482.html#msg1157482), duh. Let me quote the exact fragment:

The mafia may converse pregame while making their choices.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 03, 2015, 07:05:25 PM
CF7 why are you leaving your vote on Dormio if it's a RVS vote and you suspect Raikaria?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: CF7 on February 03, 2015, 07:09:37 PM
CF7 why are you leaving your vote on Dormio if it's a RVS vote and you suspect Raikaria?
He's sitting at L-2. Apparently not really bothered by it. Maybe that actually will motivate him enough to post here.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 03, 2015, 07:54:01 PM
God damn it apparently I missed a bunch of posts because Vhaltz checked them through my account and I didn't see them marked as "new"

I'm not sure what I think of Raikaria's post myself, I've seen townies being super reactionary and posting bad logic and thought they were scum for that before.
Raikaria's post is bad logic because bad logic (Raikaria's interpretation of SkyPal's logic in this case) =/= scum by the way.
The only thing I'm doubting about is the tone, but I guess I'll have to check Raikaria's town meta to see if he posts like that as town as well.

Let me tell you a secret. We are!

Cool bro
##unvote
##vote: CF7


Actually I'm semi-serious about CF7 and Dormio being buddies, since CF7 is being very insistant on Dormio being scum for the laughs, and I could see him doing that to his scumbuddy since claiming you're scum with your buddy while everyone else ignores it is cool in everyone's eyes. Yes, I've seen that happen before.
I don't see that as strong logic anyways since I could see CF7 doing that as town (or scum with someone else) as well, but it seems less likely.
The fact that he prefers to keep his RVS vote to "motivate" Dormio to post is more of the same. In the other hand I don't like how it's a priority to motivate one of the many players who haven't gotten much of an opportunity to post instead of voting for a scumread. It's ED1, why would you care about Dormio's lack of posts? Also people don't get motivated to post for RVS votes by the way.

If you're wondering I do find CF7 scummy individually for what I said.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 03, 2015, 09:06:21 PM
##Unvote
##Vote: Sky Paladin


I summarily dislike his Mitsuki vote post. I dislike it because he builds a strawman ("this is what Mitsuki could have done, BUT THEN DIDN'T!"), misrepresents Mitsuki's post, and quips about disliking Mitsuki's Town clear. That last one admittedly isn't very strong, but it feels like such a bogus reason to throw on at the end that it offends my sensibilities. I dislike his earlier post quipping about likelihood of having a role, because role discussion really isn't relevant right now and it feels forced to introduce it as a topic. Looks like contributing, is really just throwing up smoke and mirrors to me.

Mitsuki's focus on a CF7/Dormio scumteam... if that's serious, I have serious issues with your priorities. I also don't really like Mitsuki first presenting an argument about CF7/Dormio being an actual thing and then taking it out themselves. Why disarm your own arguments for the guy you're voting for? That doesn't make any sense, unless you don't even believe in your own reasons and want to pre-empt people. Feel free to give me reasons on why it does make sense.

I think Sky Paladin tugs stronger as scum, but having eyes on Mitsuki is also important.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 03, 2015, 09:08:11 PM
>Ignoring the rest of the game to prod someone less than 24 hours into the start of the game.
That's some quality scumhunting right there.
So, question for CF7.
What makes me doing nothing worse than Zak, who you explicitely mentioned, or others doing nothing?
Also, I really don't like how you're all like "Well Raikaria looks scummy to me but I don't want to vote him and will instead prod someone less than 12 hours into the game". (Less than 12 hours passed between CF7's first post with opinions and the game starting)

I should read the rest of the posts or something.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 03, 2015, 09:17:54 PM
Not that there's all that much to read apparently?
Sky Palladium is meh but I wouldn't vote for him.
I dislike Raikaria's reaction to Sky Palladium. But then I don't like anything Raikaria does most of the time anyway so I guess I'm just going to wait and see on this one. I mean straight up it looks like he's got a guilty conscience and is reacting to a bullshit "most likely to be scum" thing. But it's like I guess this is the sort of thing that I'd expect Raikaria to do most of the time or something.
Though, my gut feeling tells me that it's worse than what Raikaria usually does so basically I've got my eyes on you or something.
Anyway, that's enough rambling about that.
Mitsuki already pushing for scumteams is kind of hilarious. Just putting that out there.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 03, 2015, 09:18:50 PM
I also really dislike Mitsuki going out of her way to just say that she thinks that Dan is town really early into the game.
Like why would you even do that? To build fake rep? I don't get it and therefore don't like it.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 03, 2015, 09:20:48 PM
Am I the only one to have been unable to get online all afternoon?

Anyway, while I agree with what Bard says about Sky's Mituski case; I also think this part holds water:

There's no mention or even implication of this in the rules.  How did you come to this conclusion? 

Although I did explain how your reasons were wrong, like saying I was voting Dan when I didn't do so and didn't even talk about him.

Despite this bugbear, following content is good enough in general that I feel like I should #Unvote.

I don't think Sky is scum now, but I also have no clue who is the scums now. However I do feel the need to address this:

Raikaria
Do you understand the purpose of 'draft mafia' is that certain players get to pick first.  That means the players who picked first, and were announced to be first, are likely to have town power roles. 

Scum is perfectly capable of attempting to take a power role to deny it from town. In fact, if you look at the priority list:

-Strongman
-Roleblocker
-Doctor
-Factional Kill
-Neighbourizer
-Roleclop
-Tracker

The first two are roles scum really benefit from. Assumeing that high priority is a town power role is flawed. In fact it might be better to assume that the first two positions: CF7 and Mitsuki, are very suspicious because the two higher priority roles are very pro-scum.

The other suspect roles would be Factional Kill and Rolecop; which if we're using drafting order would be Dan and... well... Sky.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 03, 2015, 09:24:24 PM
Basically wiriting off Mitsuki and CF7 as most likely to be Town is stupid because the 2 highest priority roles are pro-scum.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: ActionDan on February 03, 2015, 09:33:16 PM
I wasn't able to get on earlier either.  Factional kill isn't actually a role you can draft or else town would win this game every time.

I don't have a problem with Mitsuki at all.  Neither do I find Sky's or Bard's or anyone else's complaints about her compelling after review.

I agree with Bard's first paragraph, basically. 

I'm amused at everyone else.  But not thrilled. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 03, 2015, 09:34:10 PM
I'm just going to put it out there that I'm pretty sure that factional kill is an innate scum ability.

Warning - while you were reading a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Go away Dan.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: ActionDan on February 03, 2015, 09:36:15 PM
Basically wiriting off Mitsuki and CF7 as most likely to be Town is stupid because the 2 highest priority roles are pro-scum.

One other thing concerning this:  Sky is referring to traditional town roles (like doctor / neighborizer / tracker )  I believe not to who is town.  It's confusing because he barely spells it out.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 03, 2015, 09:52:03 PM
I'm just going to put it out there that I'm pretty sure that factional kill is an innate scum ability.

Warning - while you were reading a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Go away Dan.

I was under the impression that 'Factional Kill' is Vig.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 03, 2015, 09:52:52 PM
Also holy shit Raikaria's logic makes me want to vote him.
##Unvote
##Vote Raikaria
So, like, according to Raikaria: Sky Palladium is bad and scummy because he basically said that people who rolled lower priorities are more likely to be scummy.
Raikaria kind of flipped out with regards to this since he was at the bottom of Sky Palladium's list.
Later, Raikaria says the exact same thing as Sky Palladium, except that the people who rolled higher priorities are more likely to be scummy.
Like, what the fuck is this shit?
Raikaria's whole line of logic is bullshit. It's lazy and something that I could see scum getting behind because it lets them build suspicion on someone for no good reason at all.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 03, 2015, 09:54:19 PM
I was under the impression that 'Factional Kill' is Vig.
The roles in this game are:
Tracker
Rolecop
Doctor
Roleblocker
Neighbourizer
Jack of all Trades (Strongman/Ninja)
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: CF7 on February 03, 2015, 09:56:12 PM
@Mitsuki.
You do realise that you're basically voting me for a RVS joke post? And i am assuming that this is your more or less seriouis vote.
What makes me doing nothing worse than Zak, who you explicitely mentioned, or others doing nothing?
Also, I really don't like how you're all like "Well Raikaria looks scummy to me but I don't want to vote him and will instead prod someone less than 12 hours into the game". (Less than 12 hours passed between CF7's first post with opinions and the game starting)
I think i stated the reason. 2 votes away from the lynch and your lack of reaction to it.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 03, 2015, 10:01:19 PM
It's not a RVS joke post any more if you give reasons for it.
Also, your reason sucks.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: SB on February 03, 2015, 10:02:36 PM
Votecount 1.3
Sky Paladin (2): ActionDan, , Bard
Dormio (1): CF7
CF7 (1): Mitsuki
Bard (1): Zakeri
Mitsuki (1): Sky Paladin
Raikaria (1): Dormio

Not Voting (1): Dr Rawr, Raikaria

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. You have 46.25 hours left in the phase. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150205T2015&p0=136&msg=Day+1+Deadline&csz=1)
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 03, 2015, 10:06:40 PM
Quote
CF7 and Mitsuki, are very suspicious because the two higher priority roles are very pro-scum.

You're going too fast for me; how are CF7 and Mitsuki suspicious (is that the same as scummy?) for being top of the draft?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 03, 2015, 10:11:17 PM
Everything posted between this and my last post has on(ry

I agreed initially with Mitsuki's assessment of Sky, but when I thought about it overnight, I asked myself "Wait, didn't Sky acknowledge that alignments were given before when he mentioned the list of "Most likely roled town to least likely roled?" Then I checked over the post today, and I have no idea what implies that Sky couldn't possibly know that Scum were communicating with each other.

I will say that there is no certainty that town only picked town or scum only picked scum because a large part of the strategy is picking roles to simply block others from having them. a CF7/Mitsuki scumteam could be Tracker and Doctor just for the sake of not having to face those roles to begin with (Especially since having both roles out of the running not only creates strong safeclaims for them, but also nullifies the use of picking up Jack.)

Sky's list is super useless, too, because it's not a list of most likely roled town to least liked roled town, it's a list of most likely roled player to least likely roled player. Alignments were decided before we even picked out numbers, and in case of a Raikaria/Bard scumteam, they were already screwed out of roles before they were rolled alignments, so making a joke out of the RVS tiebreaker (which the tiebreaker would be happening no matter what alignments either of them roled, even scum/scum) would just be a bit of fun for the thread.

The fact that they tied in RPS doesn't prove they are scum, but it certainly doesn't prove that they can't be.



Raikaria, did you have to repost Sky's entire post just to respond to the last line of his post?

Quote from: Raikaria #38
Why would he put himself as 6th least likely to be town, for one?
He's not sixth likeliest to be not-town, he's sixth-likeliest to not have a role.
You're right to call bullshit on the validity of his list but you're not actually doing that, you're just using the bullshit of his list against him here.

Slightly suspect of Mitsuki, very suspect of Raikaria right now.
##Unvote: Bardiche
##Vote: Raikaria
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 03, 2015, 10:20:17 PM
Bards tinge on Mitsuki feels much more important than the tinges he puts out on Sky, and I don't like the arbitrarity of sticking to sky over Mitsuki, but ... being arbitrary this early in the game is perfectly fine and he did pick up on Sky first so his priorities do fit. I guess I'm leaning townish on this.

Dormio is bad until he isn't. Ignore~

Feel better about Raikaria's unvote but the attempt to use role priority confuses me absolutely. Doesn't priority just refer to when the actions take place during the night phase? How does that factor into who picks what roles?

Quote
I was under the impression that 'Factional Kill' is Vig.
No, I'm absolutely certain the "Factional Kill" is in fact the "Factional Kill".
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 03, 2015, 10:41:21 PM
Alignments were decided before we even picked out numbers,

This argument only makes sense if I had used the word "after" instead of "before" and that is also what this line should have said.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 03, 2015, 10:44:27 PM
The roles in this game are:
 
[Role PM<quotes]

The priority list is as follows (with the Strongman first):

-Strongman
-Roleblocker
-Doctor
-Factional Kill
-Neighbourizer
-Roleclop
-Tracker

That's what I'm getting my stuff from. I'm confused. What's Factional Kill then? Is it just nilla scum?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 03, 2015, 10:46:20 PM
Raikaria, did you have to repost Sky's entire post just to respond to the last line of his post?
He's not sixth likeliest to be not-town, he's sixth-likeliest to not have a role.
You're right to call bullshit on the validity of his list but you're not actually doing that, you're just using the bullshit of his list against him here.

I think posting the drafting order was a mistake, period.  We know that players near the top of the list could probably pick any role that they wanted. 

OH. I thought it was 'liklihood to have rolled town' and it was just a typo.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 03, 2015, 10:46:43 PM
Also I messed up my quotes above I shouldn't mafia at 10:45pm.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 03, 2015, 10:59:53 PM
I said it before but I'll repeat again, the Factional Kill is the Factional kill. part of the original ruleset of Mafia is that all members of the mafia have the ability to kill once during each nightphase,
That's also what the Jack of all trades is, it gives you the option to use a special kill instead of the Factional Kill, which is why the role is only useful to scum (Because town obviously doesn't have a factional kill).

All scum possess the Factional Kill, regardless of if they have a role or not.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 03, 2015, 11:01:48 PM
wow it has been way too long since we've played mafia.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 03, 2015, 11:46:43 PM
dont think raiakria is scum. how could he think his own factional kill was a vig.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 03, 2015, 11:47:19 PM
oh btw i dont really feel like posting ill make one later
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 03, 2015, 11:58:36 PM
@Raikaria, @Zakeri

The list I posted was my frustration at the draft order being posted, since it outs the roled town players to mafia.  As I complained here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1161701.html#msg1161701), in the confirmation phase. 

Pretend for a second that you are mafia and you see this list:

1) CF7
2) Mitsuki
3) Zakeri
4) Dan
5) Dormio
6) Sky Paladin
7) Rawr
8) Raikaria
9) Bard

And it is night phase, and you want to know who you should kill.  I think we can agree mafia will want to kill roled town over vanilla and that they don't want to hit their own dudes, so they only have to pick from seven players. 

We know that players at the end of the list are more likely to have been unable to select a role, and are probably vanilla town.  So the mafia will want to hit players at the top of the list to eliminate roled town.  In the middle, we don't really know.  And plus, we don't know the exact placement of mafia, so we have to be prepared to bump the list up or down a slot at some point.  PLUS it's possible that somebody at the bottom of the list scored a power role, it's just *more likely* that they didn't, and it's *more likely* that the ones at the top did. 

1) CF7/Roled
2) Mitsuki/Roled
3) Zakeri/Roled
4) Dan/???
5) Dormio/???
6) Sky Paladin/???
7) Rawr/vanilla
8) Raikaria/vanilla
9) Bard/vanilla

The value of the list is to suggest who the doctor, if there is one, should cover this night phase. 

Do you understand now? 

@Zak
"I have no idea what implies that Sky couldn't possibly know that Scum were communicating with each other."
I didn't know scum could communicate with each other, since I thought they had to pick from the draft like we did.  The initial rules post was amended January 30 so it's possible that was included after I had read the rules.  It's also likely I just missed it. 
For the record, I didn't know that scum could communicate, but there's no way for me to prove that, and even if I could, being confirmed town would just increase the likelihood of being night hit with no likelihood of protection.  So I'll pass for now, thanks. 

@Mitsuki
"Also I posted to say that I'm townreading you, if that's an empty post then lol"
I think town reads are basically useless since they don't really advance game state.  I am interested in scum reads, which you have provided and does count in your favor. 
@ 'that point' -> Somehow I missed it, re: Zak, above.  That does remove one concrete point against you.  I'll reflect on if I still have a case when I complete this post. 

"I've seen townies being super reactionary and posting bad logic and thought they were scum for that before."
Pretty much why I'm not voting Raikaria.  I've roasted him for this before and he was town, and then the next time he was scum.  I don't know how to tell between reactionary scum Raikaria and reactionary town Raikaria.  I need something more solid. 

"Actually I'm semi-serious about CF7 and Dormio being buddies"
I was surprised to see CF7 say he was buddies with Dormio because...if Dormio later flips scum it's basically suicide.  Refuge in audacity?  I could buy that CF7 was scum but psuedo-outing himself in RVS to get a free mislynch of Dormio seems like a bad trade to me.  I'm undecided for now. 

@Bard
I don't know how to highlight Mitsuki's post as bad other than 'please study it to the same depth you have studied mine'.  What was the purpose of Mitsuki's post?  Why did she suddenly single Sky out?  What did she actually achieve?  The motive seems questionable, and that is why I questioned it. 

@Raikaria
"I don't think Sky is scum now, but I also have no clue who is the scums now."
The point that you refer to as the reason for unvoting me was disproved by Mitsuki a few posts prior, so you should re-evaluate and consider other points made by other players. 

Could you provide a list of your current scumpicks? 

Raikaria (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162240.html#msg1162240)
Quote
Basically wiriting off Mitsuki and CF7 as most likely to be Town is stupid because the 2 highest priority roles are pro-scum.

This is really alarming because it shows Raikaria is confusing priority with draft order, a mistake town wouldn't make. 

@Dan
Post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162242.html#msg1162242)
You mention twice that you like Mitsuki but you don't like me, but you don't say why. 

Quote
I do tbh and I don't like the post.

I do find your post about townie though.

Can you clarify why you think Mitsuki is town, and why you think I am scum? 

@DrRawr
DO YOU EXIST?

***

Cut by Rawr lol

The phase is already half over and you have zero posts.  I have no problem consolidate voting you if you don't improve. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 04, 2015, 03:35:22 AM
Okay, so like I thought, Sky was just pointing out who had roles, and not implying anyone else was more town than anyone else.
Also, I guess I don't really care if the towntell applies to you or not, Sky, I just want to know where the towntell is coming from directly, since it influences whether or not I agree with the fact that Mitsuki is just making pointless fluff posts.

that said, I agree that doctor should just stick to protecting whoever's in the first two slots unless they seriously believe one of them is scum. I realize that puts me in the most danger of being NKed, since I'm in the third slot, but on the other hand I don't have to care about this game anymore if I am NKed.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: CF7 on February 04, 2015, 07:43:52 AM
@Sky_P roles table. It's a bit more complicated than that.
I am kind of sick of this rolespec on D1, tbh.

##Unvote
And i do not want to vote for Raikaria, because of his logic, because it's his standard logic more or less, and well i think it's really non-indicative of his alignment.

Out of people i want to vote for i'd say my pick would be Mitsuki. Justifying her RVS vote as a thing, because i jokingly admitted so is not really a townie thing to do and basically creating a wagon for no valid reason.
##Vote Mitsuki
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 04, 2015, 07:45:05 AM
Totes gunning for the Raikaria/CF7 dream.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 04, 2015, 09:25:14 AM
The value of the list is to suggest who the doctor, if there is one, should cover this night phase. 

Except it also acts like a shortlist to scum for people to target to hit power roles. OK; so the Doc is protecting 1 or 2. So scum can just hit 3 or 4 or something and still probobly hit town PR's.

As for scumpicks; it's hard for me to come to conclusions right now on the matter due to the focus on me, and the amount of rolespec. I'm bad at identifying scum from attacks on me, and I'm bad at rolespec. I guess I don't like Dormio's reasons for voting me the least, so if I *had* to vote right now I'd vote there, but honestly nothing stands out to me as being a sure sign of da scums yet.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 04, 2015, 12:25:07 PM
I know I said I would re evaluate my Mitsuki vote but I was kind of hoping for more people to post before dropping another wall of text.

I don't like Bard for showing up apparently only to defend Mitsuki yet not evaluate her post.
I don't like Dan for not explaining his reasons.
I'm particularly Interestd because I saw Mitsukis post as scummy and they see it as town somehow. Enough to vote me for questioning her. Bard provided a potentially viable explanation but he did not explain why Mitsuki appears town.

I dislike pretty much everyhing Raikaia had posted this game. I keep having to find excuses not to vote them. We haven't played for a long time so sure we are a bit rusty but holy wow Raikaria what are you doing.  I think Raikaria - if town - is the easiest mislynch. So I can consider a Cf7/Dormio scum team since their were both voting there for a moment. So I want to consider their content next and see if there is something g solid to Mitsukis points.

Dormio/Bard/Dan/Rawr should post more content.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 04, 2015, 01:13:56 PM
So I can consider a Cf7/Dormio scum team since their were both voting there for a moment.
Excuse me? I'm still voting there, thank you very much.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 04, 2015, 02:16:21 PM
To people who are saying that my CF7 "case" is shit: Well, maybe it's because it is? I didn't have any scumreads, so I decided to pursue something dumb to see what would happen (I didn't fake the logic though, I just thought it was dumb from the very beginning). Not a very good idea for me, but at least now I have a lot more to comment on than before. I don't really see CF7 as scummy based on tone of his posts, anyways. He's null.

Everyone should stop voting people on being bad and making dumb cases. I don't really care if you want to pursue me for that since I can defend myself well enough but stop voting other people for that. It's dumb. Most of the people on MotK will make dumb cases and post bad logic at some point. We aren't known for posting the best logic; see how almost all games are won by scum. Heck, most players anywhere will post bad logic at some point.
So stop equating bad logic to scum logic, it's the wrong way to go about scumhunting. Ask to yourself: what is this person trying to achieve with that? Is that purpose townie or scummy? Does this actually make sense from their point of view? Did they misunderstand something?

And now, content:

I think Bardiche is scum because of his bit on SkyPal here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162233.html#msg1162233):

I summarily dislike his Mitsuki vote post. I dislike it because he builds a strawman ("this is what Mitsuki could have done, BUT THEN DIDN'T!"), misrepresents Mitsuki's post, and quips about disliking Mitsuki's Town clear. That last one admittedly isn't very strong, but it feels like such a bogus reason to throw on at the end that it offends my sensibilities. I dislike his earlier post quipping about likelihood of having a role, because role discussion really isn't relevant right now and it feels forced to introduce it as a topic. Looks like contributing, is really just throwing up smoke and mirrors to me.

1. There is no real reason given as of why Sky's misrep would have scum intent, and is not a misunderstanding (which is common from SkyPal). Same goes for the rest, it's pointing out stuff that's "bad" but not really "scummy" for him.
2. Wording is overly exaggerated, seems like he's trying to paint SkyPal as scummy with stuff that's usually seen as scummy, but actual logic isn't very strong (first point).
3. Scum rethoric, in italic. Similar to second point, it's an exaggeration of what SkyPal's done.

Basically the way Bardiche goes about his logic does not take into account the player's usual playstyle to paint him as scummy. As town I think he'd know much better.

##Unvote
##Vote: Bardiche



@Dormio: how is this (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162251.html#msg1162251) a scumtell and not a Raikariatell. How does this differentiate from his town logic? He posts bad logic as either alignment.

Zakeri seems townie for reasons I won't share for now, also I wouldn't expect him to be as unconcerned as scum to post like he is. He seems like the kind of person that would be very careful as scum.

Replies in next post, I don't want to wall too much.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 04, 2015, 02:19:13 PM
Replies:

I think town reads are basically useless since they don't really advance game state.

Townreads aren't useless since they can influence who other people vote, just like scumreads. Also they can help you to PoE the scumteam.

I agreed initially with Mitsuki's assessment of Sky, but when I thought about it overnight, I asked myself "Wait, didn't Sky acknowledge that alignments were given before when he mentioned the list of "Most likely roled town to least likely roled?" Then I checked over the post today, and I have no idea what implies that Sky couldn't possibly know that Scum were communicating with each other.

Yeah I misunderstood, since SkyPal used "roled town" to refer as town with roles, and I misread it as rolled town.


... I don't think I'm replying to anything else, sorry. Just tell me if you don't think what I've already said covers what you brought up.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 04, 2015, 03:45:28 PM
I dislike pretty much everyhing Raikaia had posted this game. I keep having to find excuses not to vote them. We haven't played for a long time so sure we are a bit rusty but holy wow Raikaria what are you doing. 

I don't know all this early rolespec has made me confused.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 04, 2015, 07:26:27 PM
Raikaria, why are CF7 and Mitsuki suspicious, and is suspicious the same as scummy?

Quote
Bard provided a potentially viable explanation but he did not explain why Mitsuki appears town.

I don't need to explain why a Scumread appears Town.  This is a misrepresentation because you're attributing thoughts and claims to me where I have made none of them.

Sky Paladin, how can you use "I have to keep finding reasons not to vote them" and "I think Raikaria is the easiest mislynch" in the same sentence? While you're busy explaining, care to add an explanation where exactly you stand on Raikaria, and what excuses you make to yourself to not vote him? I'm confused on your stance re: Raikaria and it reads as though you think he's scummy.

Mitsuki's tacit defending of Sky Paladin is almost textbook chainsaw defending. Focusing on merely one point (Sky Paladin's misrep) and claiming I'm "exaggerating about what [Sky Pal]'s done" conveniently ignores whether or not Sky Paladin's actions are town-minded, while subtly suggesting that they are ("common from SkyPal"). If I have to spoonfeed why Paladin's actions are scummy: his strawman is scummy because he pretends you're scum for failing to do any of the four things he mentioned. His misrepresentation as "empty content post" is dishonest and scum minded, because his summary leaves out the content of the post and pretends it doesn't exist. Focusing on discussing roles over discussing who's scum has the potential to draw in others; any discussion that isn't focused on finding scum is discussion that benefits scum by sheer virtue of distracting Town from its wincondition.

Therefore, Sky Paladin is Scum, because he employs three tactics which all serve to distract Town and further a Scum agenda.

##Unvote
##Vote: Mitsuki


To say nothing about your validation for your CF7 vote, I can't rhyme Town intent in a textbook chainsaw defence. Defending Sky Paladin on the basis that "he's always like this" purports that Sky Paladin is completely logical, sound and brilliant whenever he's scum. Last I checked, rolling scum doesn't turn you into Buddha.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 04, 2015, 07:34:45 PM
Raikaria, you can blame rolespec all you want, it's not going to change that you're blundering about left and right. Last I checked, you weren't a shit player. A few weeks of no Mafia doesn't suddenly make an otherwise decent player think vigilantes now have "factional kills", and it smells very much like a refuge in audacity to me. If not Mitsuki, I'd want to lynch Raikaria at this point for refuging in audacity and distracting the Town with his sudden show of utter incompetence. None of his posts on the last two pages have contributed to scum hunting with the exception of his Sky Paladin vote: everything after that is Raikaria pretending he's new to the game and needs explanation on common Mafia terms.

I'm not convinced Raikaria developed dementia inbetween this game and the last game he played.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: SB on February 04, 2015, 08:09:50 PM
Votecount 1.4
Mitsuki (3): Sky Paladin, CF7, Bard
Raikaria (2): Dormio, Zakeri
Sky Paladin (1): ActionDan
Bard (1): Mitsuki

Not Voting (2): Dr Rawr, Raikaria

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. You have 24 hours left in the phase. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150205T2015&p0=136&msg=Day+1+Deadline&csz=1)
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 04, 2015, 08:27:58 PM
Quote from: Mitsuki 81
To people who are saying that my CF7 "case" is shit: Well, maybe it's because it is? I didn't have any scumreads,

##Unvote
##Vote: Mitsuki
(L-1 Warning)

The tone of this line set off huge gut-based alarms.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 04, 2015, 08:59:46 PM
It's might just be how I approach the game, but the overall tone of the entire two paragraphs that line highlights is a little too aggressive for this early in the game. Especially since it's only purpose is self-defense.

I accept Mitsuki's answer to my question, though. It looks like half the game was confused on what that list Sky posted was for.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 04, 2015, 09:28:48 PM
Raikaria, why are CF7 and Mitsuki suspicious, and is suspicious the same as scummy?

Well apparently the reason I thought CF7 and Mituski were suspicious was based on my misunderstanding of Sky's chart. So it's kinda null and void now.

And what else would you call a town 'Factional Kill' if not a Vigilante? I think it's a perfectly acceptable misconception, although admittedly I made it. I thought 'Factional Kill' was a selectable role. I was wrong.

I am struggling to understand the logic behind the Mitsuki wagon. Zak's reason is the one I follow the most. I'm not really seeing a Mitsuki lynch right now personally. And I do not like how Zakeri put Mitsuki at L-1 with 24 hours left. Dangerous thing to do.

I'll probobly actually do something more coherent in the morning. And actually figure out who to vote because right now I'm reading through this 2 pages of game content and drawing blanks except thinking 'my god I'm derping hard'.

Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 04, 2015, 09:52:23 PM
##Unvote
##Vote: Raikaria


I call bullshit.

Quote
apparently the reason I thought CF7 and Mituski were suspicious was based on my misunderstanding of Sky's chart.

In this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162239.html#msg1162239) Sky unequivocally explains whoever got to pick first is extremely likely to have a (town) power role. You respond that scum are capable of picking town roles to deny them from town. Nothing in your post suggests that you have some misunderstanding over what Sky Paladin was talking about.

It's unlikely you thought "factional kill" was a selectable role as an exhaustive list of roles was posted, pre-ambled with "these are the selectable roles". I don't find it believable that Raikaria did not look at the roles list or examined the roles in detail prior to making a pick. I think it's only believable if either Raikaria is extremely inattentive and drafted without looking at the roles list in detail, or his scum buddies already suggested a pick for him so he did not need to pay attention.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 04, 2015, 09:54:35 PM
I'm not sure what I can reply to Zakeri since gutreads are hard to comment on. I know I'm not usually agressive (as either alignment) but I'm really annoyed at reads based on people being bad and on contradictions. And on dumb rolespec, but not the kind that has been going on this game. I feel that people rely too much on those to the point that they ignore tells that are much better at distinguishing town from scum. I'm also kind of raging at myself because of that, I have a personal QT where I rage to myself about what I have or don't have to do in mafia, from before the game, and I can link it to you if you want. Not sure it'd serve as proof of anything though, and I'd rather not show my personal stuff, but this is probably the best I can offer as defense.

I'm raging so hard at being at L-1 that it's hard to understand Bardiche's post. Ugh, I'll try.

Mitsuki's tacit defending of Sky Paladin is almost textbook chainsaw defending.

I'm not trying to defend Sky Paladin, I'm posting to comment on a scumread. I get I'm defending Sky Paladin as a side effect but what could I do otherwise, not post about it at all?
Anyways how is that chainsaw defending, though, when none of us has flipped? Chainsaw defending isn't a reliable tell without flips. You're making associative reads without flips, which is dumb.

Focusing on merely one point (Sky Paladin's misrep)
No, I didn't focus on one point, I gave several explanations on how the whole bit on Palain was scummy. I thought that SkyPal's misrep was a good example of how your case didn't hold water but I can focus on why the other points you brought up aren't good if you want.

and claiming I'm "exaggerating about what [Sky Pal]'s done" conveniently ignores whether or not Sky Paladin's actions are town-minded, while subtly suggesting that they are ("common from SkyPal")

By saying it's common for SkyPal to do something I'm implying it's null. The burden of proof on why something someone has done is scummy is on the person who suspects them (you), not on who disagrees with your scumread. How is disagreeing with you scummy anyways?

If I have to spoonfeed why Paladin's actions are scummy: his strawman is scummy because he pretends you're scum for failing to do any of the four things he mentioned. His misrepresentation as "empty content post" is dishonest and scum minded, because his summary leaves out the content of the post and pretends it doesn't exist. Focusing on discussing roles over discussing who's scum has the potential to draw in others; any discussion that isn't focused on finding scum is discussion that benefits scum by sheer virtue of distracting Town from its wincondition.

Yeah, I get why scumtells are scumtells, but I'm questioning how those apply to SkyPal: he does that kind of thing as town and I think some of your points are exaggerated. Ugh, I can comment on that in detail if you want, do you prefer that or shall I wait for Sky to adress those points?

Therefore, Sky Paladin is Scum, because he employs three tactics which all serve to distract Town and further a Scum agenda.

"SkyPal is antitown". Ok, but he has been antitown as town before (we all have).

Defending Sky Paladin on the basis that "he's always like this" purports that Sky Paladin is completely logical, sound and brilliant whenever he's scum. Last I checked, rolling scum doesn't turn you into Buddha.

Yeah but rolling town doesn't turn him into Buddha either. He's very confusing as both scum and town. Where I'm getting at is that you're using nulltells as scumtells.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 04, 2015, 10:08:35 PM
I find Bardiche's case on me scummy but it may be because I'm raging. I'll need to reconsider that when I'm sure I'm seeing straight.

Other than Bardiche I'm not sure who I'd lynch, and he doesn't seem like an option for D1 so ugh. I wouldn't lynch SkyPal, Zakeri or Dan. Waiting to see what Raikaria posts, he's null to me right now but I'm confident I'll be able to read him soon enough for reasons.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 04, 2015, 10:15:26 PM
##unvote

Just woke up and reading now.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 04, 2015, 10:20:09 PM
Chainsaw defending doesn't require the other party to flip.

Disagreeing with me is scummy because I'm right. Also because you have no idea whether or not Sky Paladin is Scum or Town with absolute certainty, so you cannot say whether or not I am right. Unless you're Scum, then you can be absolutely certain of it. The entire quote isn't about disagreeing with me, it's that you've made no attempt to explain why I'd be wrong. I disagree Sky behaves "as normal" and think he behaves in a decidedly pro-Scum way.

I don't quite get the point re: anti-Town. Can you clarify what you mean there? It's OK to be anti-Town?

Let me make it clear:

I don't think Sky Paladin's normal modus operandi is this anti-Town. He is infuriatingly illogical, but never outright supporting the Scum win condition. By claiming that Sky Paladin is routinely anti-Town, you're not only being condescending and an ass, but also wrong. You claimed that if I were Town, I'd "know better". I now invite you to look through the archives, for I am sure you will find I have always pursued anti-Town behaviour.

I fiercely dislike Mitsuki's vague "I'll be able to read Raikaria soon enough". Smells like a wait-and-see position to see whether the rest think he's scummy, and if they do, Mitsuki will swing that way as well. I think it's pretty scummy to have (virtually) no scum reads; know who has trouble with scum reads? Scum. Because they have to fabricate a case on someone they know is innocent, or bus a buddy.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 04, 2015, 10:36:15 PM
Since I just realised there's no reason for Raikaria or Bard NOT to pick (1,1)

Sorry SB for being fucking lame but I'm quoting this because it implies that Raikaria and Bard aren't the scumteam; if they were SB wouldn't see a problem with them picking whichever numbers they felt like, but instead he saw the chance for an "eternal tie" and decided to change his method. As the scumteam they would agree on which numbers to pick, as town-town or town-scum they'd want to compete and therefore they'd both choose (1,1). I think this is most reliable than the paper-rock-scissors tie, since they could have tied once on purpose.
So yeah I think we can now safely assume that if one of them flips scum the other must be town.


@Bardiche on the Raikaria thing: I have one tell on Raikaria that I think I'll be able to apply soon, but if I comment on it I won't be able to use it. I'm currently leaning towards "not scum" on him, if that's what you're asking about. As scum why would I say that and not just outright wait though?

On chainsaw defending: Chainsaw defending is literally scum defending scum by attacking someone else. You can't really apply it without having a scum flip.

On being anti-town: No, it's not ok to be anti-town. However, that doesn't mean the person is scum.

Disagreeing with you is scummy because you're right? No, I don't think you're right, and anyways, do you think town will never disagree with what it's right? Whatever, I think it's pointless to discuss this. Thinking you're wrong is not what I find you scummy for, anyways.

Fair enough on the comment on Sky Paladin not being anti-town usually, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on what his meta is though.


Yeah I'll check the archives, that is a good idea. I'd suggest you to do the same, but actually I've been playing this game very differently than any other games so I'm not sure it'd help.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 04, 2015, 10:58:04 PM
I am concerned that Bard basically countervoted Mitsuki when she first cased him, refused to analyse the posts I asked him to, and then hopped off of the wagon on to the easiest lynch in the game.  More to follow. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: ActionDan on February 04, 2015, 11:14:15 PM
ok but easiest lynch != being wrong plus mitsuki was just at L-1 plus I find Bard's concern about raikaria valid.  And raikaria bullshits as scum like that too On occasion
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: ActionDan on February 04, 2015, 11:17:09 PM
Oh i think zak is town.  And also probably the N1 kill
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 04, 2015, 11:24:02 PM
I still think Bardiche is scum based on meta? Granted, he words stuff in a much more fancy way than what I remembered, but the way he goes on about everything is much more straightforward as town than as scum. As town I can see how one point flows from the other and it's really well explained, as scum it all feels exaggerated and it's not that well explained. There's also how he uses scum rethoric as scum but not as town, at least as far as I've checked. This is the kind of thing that can't be well explained without examples, so town post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16951.msg1101814.html#msg1101814) and scum post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17327.msg1125365.html#msg1125365), another scum post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17327.msg1125475.html#msg1125475) from later on to check the scum rethoric part. Feel free to check more of his meta if you want.

How does this relate to this game? Well, as I quoted before, this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162233.html#msg1162233) has two examples of scum rethoric, and I think the logic on SkyPal was exaggerated. As to how well explained arguments are, this is more of a gut thing, and it's not like he doesn't explain stuff well anyways, it's just that as town he explains it better; his logic "flows" more, so to speak. You can check last post for this as well but I think this one (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162497.html#msg1162497) and the one that follows it are a better example of that.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 04, 2015, 11:29:22 PM
I generally agree with Mitsuki's post where she votes Bard. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162437.html#msg1162437)

"There is no real reason given as of why Sky's misrep would have scum intent" -

This post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162173.html#msg1162173) was not a misrep.  It was an attempt to summarise your post as to why I felt it scummy.  If you, Mitsuki, look at my post, and then check your post, please consider if what I said strongly alters the content of your post.  That is what I asked Bard to do here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162296.html#msg1162296) and here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162422.html#msg1162422). 

@Bard
Post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162497.html#msg1162497)
"I don't need to explain why a Scumread appears Town."
Yes you do, because I am accusing you of Making Stuff Up as the basis for your vote.  I do not see the pro-town spirit in the post of Mitsuki's that you apparently saw as gold. 

I DEMAND an explanation, even more so as you saw fit to vote Mitsuki almost immediately afterward. 

"Sky Paladin, how can you use "I have to keep finding reasons not to vote them" and "I think Raikaria is the easiest mislynch" in the same sentence? While you're busy explaining, care to add an explanation where exactly you stand on Raikaria, and what excuses you make to yourself to not vote him?"

Sure. 

I've seen Raikaria do a whole bunch of dumb things this game, like an empty unvote that he STILL hasn't replaced, countervoting me because he thought I voted him, etc etc, but I also in my very first post did a dumb thing - I somehow thought Raikaria was voting for a different person than he was. 
I find it hard to believe somebody could be this much of a train wreck by accident and there have been many alarming things that he has said including general confusion over how the drafting order works. 
I honestly don't know if Raikaria is scum.  I could see us lynching him today just to remove the confusion factor.  Then I consider "If I am willing to delete a player just to make the puzzle easier, is that beneficial for town?"  He's more than likely to be unroled so the net loss is minimal.  But when I find myself making calculations on 'How much is this player worth to keep in the game?' I start to question if I am scum hunting or just pushing to kill off players that I dislike this game. 

Also, partly meta.  It seems like we lynch one of Raikaria/CF7/Serela/Sky every day 1.  I've never seen Dr Rawr or Dan get lynched day 1, and Raikaria has posted heaps of content.  I'd rather punish Dan and Rawr for their inactivity than punitively lynch Raikaria for forgetting how to play. 

@Bard
"Mitsuki's tacit defending of Sky Paladin is almost textbook chainsaw defending."
Isn't this exactly what you did when you voted me for my vote on Mitsuki? 

"Focusing on merely one point (Sky Paladin's misrep) and claiming I'm "exaggerating about what [Sky Pal]'s done" conveniently ignores whether or not Sky Paladin's actions are town-minded"
Isn't this exactly what you did when you voted me for my vote on Mitsuki? 

"His misrepresentation as "empty content post" is dishonest and scum minded, because his summary leaves out the content of the post and pretends it doesn't exist. "
I challenged you, twice, to provide an alternative view of said content to lend weight to your argument.  You continue to fail to do so, subsequently, I am forced to conclude that no such alternative explanation exists, and you are fabricating. 

"Focusing on discussing roles over discussing who's scum has the potential to draw in others; any discussion that isn't focused on finding scum is discussion that benefits scum by sheer virtue of distracting Town from its wincondition."

I didn't do this, as you yourself say in your justification for your vote on Raikaria,
Quote
In this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162239.html#msg1162239) Sky unequivocally explains whoever got to pick first is extremely likely to have a (town) power role. You respond that scum are capable of picking town roles to deny them from town. Nothing in your post suggests that you have some misunderstanding over what Sky Paladin was talking about.

If you knew it was a lie, you shouldn't have used it as the basis for your vote on me. 

Quote
Defending Sky Paladin on the basis that "he's always like this" purports that Sky Paladin is completely logical, sound and brilliant whenever he's scum.

I'm always completely logical, sound and brilliant.  What's the value of this point? 

Mitsuki didn't defend me.  She made a case against you.  You should focus your efforts on disproving her points against you. 

I do kind of agree with this though:
"I'm not convinced Raikaria developed dementia inbetween this game and the last game he played."

@Everybody
Quote
It looks like half the game was confused on what that list Sky posted was for.

Holy wow. 

Guys. 

My list was complaining that the draft order was revealed.  Nothing more.  It wasn't rolespec or rolefishing or whatever, it was just...this hurt town, why did you do this?

I'm gonna leave it there while I read page 4. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 04, 2015, 11:43:01 PM
@Mitsuki - "I have a personal QT where I rage to myself about what I have or don't have to do in mafia, from before the game, and I can link it to you if you want. "

I'm pretty sure that's against the rules, since it constitutes 'editing your posts'.  I've asked before and got a big fat no. 

"I get I'm defending Sky Paladin as a side effect but what could I do otherwise, not post about it at all?
Anyways how is that chainsaw defending, though, when none of us has flipped? Chainsaw defending isn't a reliable tell without flips. You're making associative reads without flips, which is dumb." 

Agree 100%. 

"The burden of proof on why something someone has done is scummy is on the person who suspects them (you), not on who disagrees with your scumread. How is disagreeing with you scummy anyways?" 

Agree 100%.  This is the spirit behind why I'm asking Bard to explain his early town read of Mitsuki, that apparently changed to a scum read when you voted him. 

@Just
"Chainsaw defending doesn't require the other party to flip. "

Yes, it does. (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Tarhalindur_Standard_Tells)
Quote
UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here.

Just
Quote
Disagreeing with me is scummy because I'm right. Also because you have no idea whether or not Sky Paladin is Scum or Town with absolute certainty, so you cannot say whether or not I am right. Unless you're Scum, then you can be absolutely certain of it.

Wow lol.  I can't make this up.  I'm just gonna...

"you have no idea whether or not Sky Paladin is Scum or Town with absolute certainty
Unless you're Scum, then you can be absolutely certain of it.
Disagreeing with me is scummy because I'm right."

It's hard for me to read the first quote as anything other than a town clear of Mitsuki and outing himself as scum.  That aside, there are plenty of contradictions from Just, as well as several instances of apparently Making Stuff Up as a basis for his vote, on top of his serious-vote-but-wagon-hop inconsistency. 

##vote Just
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 04, 2015, 11:45:16 PM
Sky Paladin I realise that your post wasn't a misrep as-is, I was calling it misrep because those were Bardiche's words. It's part of why I'm saying he's exaggerating stuff. I think you misunderstood some of the stuff I said though, but we already clarified that.

Also Bardiche never called me town, his first post on me (before the post where he voted me) called me scummy.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 04, 2015, 11:47:09 PM
Also, I never wanted to link my thoughts QT for this game, I wanted to link another one I use to keep mafia related stuff in order.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 04, 2015, 11:53:23 PM
Bard said, in his vote post, "I dislike it because he builds a strawman ("this is what Mitsuki could have done, BUT THEN DIDN'T!"), misrepresents Mitsuki's post"

So I want to know what difference there is between what I posted and what he read. 

He later states: (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162497.html#msg1162497)
"I don't need to explain why a Scumread appears Town." in response to my request for clarification. 

Which suggests that he saw you as town at that time which is interesting because that is the exact post where he votes for you. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 05, 2015, 12:43:34 AM
Quote
I DEMAND an explanation, even more so as you saw fit to vote Mitsuki almost immediately afterward. 

If I read Mitsuki as Scum there is literally no reason for me to give you any explanation as to why they are Town. Why would I undermine my own scumreads by claiming they're Town? That doesn't make sense.

And yes, Sky Paladin. Indeed. I actually meant that I'm Scum in that post. Congratulations, you solved the game.

From your blurb on Raikaria, am I to understand you are not scumreading him?

Regarding alternative interpretations of Mitsuki's post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162071.html#msg1162071) that isn't "empty content": the post contains an evaluation of your alignment, the information that "scum players were supposed to communicate before picking" and the information that alignments were chosen before roles were picked. In particular, your summary of the post is only the last, third point. It's dishonest to strip away 2/3rds of a post and then claim it "empty content".

I don't know what lie I'm using as "my basis" for a vote on you. I clearly and unequivocally voted you over misrepresentation, role spec distraction, complaining Mitsuki town reads you (why would that bother you?) and using a strawman argument. All of these actions further Scum and exhibit an inability to make a case based on actual proceedings. That's scummy.

I'm not chainsaw defending Mitsuki and have not at any point in the game. My beef was and is with your arguments and style of case-making, irrelevant of what I think of Mitsuki. Whether I read Mitsuki as Town or Scum does not change my read on you. If Mitsuki agreed with me that you behaving in an Anti-Town way is Scummy, then Mitsuki'd probably be voting in a different direction. The entire crux of the argument between Mitsuki and I is that we disagree on whether you're normally Anti-Town or not.

Mitsuki is amusing, but I use the same rhetoric regardless of alignment (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,12276.msg804894.html#msg804894).
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 05, 2015, 12:47:21 AM
He later states: (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162497.html#msg1162497)
"I don't need to explain why a Scumread appears Town." in response to my request for clarification. 

Which suggests that he saw you as town at that time which is interesting because that is the exact post where he votes for you.

Like, you're literally quoting me saying Mitsuki is a Scumread for me. And then drawing the complete opposite conclusion from that.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 05:40:12 AM
"From your blurb on Raikaria, am I to understand you are not scumreading him?" 

I am not-not scumreading him?  He has been very careless and made many mistakes.  It would be very easy to make a case and vote, and with the timer running down (15 hours to go) it would be easy to just vote.  He's over reacted and misunderstood things and (if town) become confused.  I also flagged a seperate thing where he mixed up the drafting order with the assigned roles, which I felt players paying attention to selecting a role couldn't have got wrong.  I am not opposed to a Raikaria lynch.  I just wonder if there isn't a better one.  I feel, for example, your case and vote on Raikaria is very tangential and that anybody can pick one thing Raikaria has done and vote him for it.  It will be hard to get meaningful data from his lynch if he flips town. 

Honestly, my first pick for scum team was Raikaria/Mitsuki.  When Mitsuki first responded to my post, after I was questioning Raikaria, it felt like she was trying to put pressure away from people looking at Raikaria.  So naturally I became suspicious of the motive. 

You had what appeared to be a solid case on Mitsuki, only to jump off of the wagon when she was at L-1 for Raikaria.  There's been a lot of mistakes from Raikaria and the one you pulled up to trigger your focus was one you appeared to 'correct' me on prior.  I think the choice and the timing is very strange, so I question your motive about this. 

***
Quote
Regarding alternative interpretations of Mitsuki's post that isn't "empty content": the post contains an evaluation of your alignment, the information that "scum players were supposed to communicate before picking" and the information that alignments were chosen before roles were picked. In particular, your summary of the post is only the last, third point. It's dishonest to strip away 2/3rds of a post and then claim it "empty content".

I feel like you are dodging the issue here intentionally.  I want you to read my post, the one that Mitsuki responded to, and evaluate the purpose of her post.  I do not care what you think about the post where I voted Mitsuki, that you voted me for, because I already made a case for scum Mitsuki when I voted and any post after that was you reacting.  I want you to go to the source and evaluate. 

My post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162069.html#msg1162069)
Her post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162071.html#msg1162071)

***

@Dan
You said that Mitsuki was town and she is currently a leading lynch candidate.  Could you tell us why you townread her? 

@Rawr
The phase is down to the last few hours and you have posted no content except to defend Raikaria, a leading lynch candidate.  You have yet to vote.  You promised to post more content.  Can you do something? 

@Dormio
Do you have any thoughts on Mitsuki/Bard? 

@Raikaria
Do you really have no scum picks, even now?

@Zak
"It's might just be how I approach the game, but the overall tone of the entire two paragraphs that line highlights is a little too aggressive for this early in the game. Especially since it's only purpose is self-defense."
I agree that it is defensive.  Is defensiveness a scum-only quality?  Not rhetorical, I am genuinely curious. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: SB on February 05, 2015, 08:01:05 AM
Votecount 1.5
Mitsuki (2): CF7, Zakeri
Raikaria (2): Dormio, Bard
Bard (2): Mitsuki, Sky Paladin
Sky Paladin (1): ActionDan

Not Voting (2): Dr Rawr, Raikaria

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. You have 24.25 hours left in the phase. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150205T2015&p0=136&msg=Day+1+Deadline&csz=1) A hammer is required to lynch.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 05, 2015, 08:01:55 AM
I see a lot of :wikipedia: and my general impression while reading through them was that Mitsuki looks worse in the exchange, and that I also don't like how Sky Palladium is trying to defend her.

More than that, though, I still want to keep my vote on Raikaria.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 05, 2015, 08:06:58 AM
i dont think bardiche is in the wrong with his case on sky paladin. i mean if skypaladin posts nonsense as both town and scum isnt it up to town to determine if its scum skypaladin or town skypaladin? we are talking about his content and we cant just hand wave it away.

im still gonna think raiakria is town because i to made the same mistake because
i didnt read any of the rules
so im thinking raiakria was just being a total scrub andis going to get his act together for the rest of the game. gotta wipe that rust off dawg.

actiondan is a pretty cool guy and i probably wouldnt lynch himand going off his post zakeri is probably town also

assume my vote is on mitsuki no idea what the vote count looks like
 :dealwithit:
i dont understand why mitsuki thinks bardiche is scum (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162568.html#msg1162568). ive read that post and actually looked at the links but i cant really tell whats going on. which in my book is just scum posting some kind of useless babble people will not really read and agree with it.

-cut-
##Vote: Mitsuki
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 08:32:43 AM
The timer posted in the votals is ten hours shorter than the announcement. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 08:52:32 AM
@Rawr
Quote
i dont understand why mitsuki thinks bardiche is scum.

Maybe that's because the post you linked to isn't her case?  Try this one. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162437.html#msg1162437)

Quote
i dont think bardiche is in the wrong with his case on sky paladin.

That's cool.  What about my case on Bard? 

What do you think of Bard voting for Raikaria even if you liked his case?

@Dormio
Quote
I also don't like how Sky Palladium is trying to defend her.
I don't really see how I'm defending Mitsuki.  I made a case on Bard who was voting her at the time. 

I'm going to defend her now, though. 

I'm in the situation where as a town player, I've observed Mitsuki start a case while she wasn't under any pressure, and I feel like the scum thing for her to do would have been to sit back and let town do something random, or to join in on another wagon (Raikaria and mine were the main ones iirc).  That's why we have that third on wagon scumtell, right? 

Her first couple of posts re CF7 were pretty bad and I called her on it but she improved and she has a lot of content.  So basically I'd be unhappy with a lynch of Mitsuki today.  I'd be happy with, roughly in this order, Bard/Rawr/Dan/Raikaria.  CF7 kind of vanished for the last half of the phase along with Zak and they haven't really addressed their votes for awhile either, but they aren't 'bad' so to speak. 

So I guess
Scumpicks -> Bard + Rawr or Dan or Raikaria
Uncertain -> Dormio, CF7, Zak
Town -> Mitsuki

I realise this is pretty hypocritical given I was railing her as my main scum pick at the start of the phase.  That's the point of discussion though.  We learn and update our opinions.  That's why I think Mitsuki is probably town, because she's put out a lot of stuff, and reading it, it doesn't feel bad.  When I read Just's stuff I get, that dirty feeling, that I'm reading lies all the time.  I know that Just twisted things I said to make me look bad and he just made up things too.  I don't like it. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 05, 2015, 09:20:36 AM
Therefore, Sky Paladin is Scum, because he employs three tactics which all serve to distract Town and further a Scum agenda.

##Unvote
##Vote: Mitsuki


OK; so if Mitsuki is scum because he/she is defending Sky Paladin, who is scum, then why are you voting for Mitsuki and not Sky Paladin?

It's unlikely you thought "factional kill" was a selectable role as an exhaustive list of roles was posted, pre-ambled with "these are the selectable roles". I don't find it believable that Raikaria did not look at the roles list or examined the roles in detail prior to making a pick. I think it's only believable if either Raikaria is extremely inattentive and drafted without looking at the roles list in detail, or his scum buddies already suggested a pick for him so he did not need to pay attention.

It's more this game took so long to start up and I drafted like 2 months ago so I forgot.

Chainsaw defending doesn't require the other party to flip.

Disagreeing with me is scummy because I'm right. Also because you have no idea whether or not Sky Paladin is Scum or Town with absolute certainty, so you cannot say whether or not I am right. Unless you're Scum, then you can be absolutely certain of it. The entire quote isn't about disagreeing with me, it's that you've made no attempt to explain why I'd be wrong. I disagree Sky behaves "as normal" and think he behaves in a decidedly pro-Scum way.

Oh god this attitude is so bad. Aside from the fact that a lynchpin of your old Mitsuki vote is Sky being scum being hilariously mirrored against you using 'because you have no idea whether or not Sky Paladin is Scum or Town with absolute certainty, so you cannot say whether or not I am right.' Saying you cannot prove someone wrong because you do not know certainties works both ways Bard. And if it works both ways no-one would ever get anything done in mafia.

I don't like the way Bard is pushing on Sky/Mitsuki, and I especially don't like the logic he uses to vote Mitsuki: 'Sky is scum therefor Mitsuki is scum for defending him but let's vote Mitsuki and not the guy I've just 'proved' is scum in this wall'. 'By the way if you disagree with me you're scum.'

#Vote: Bardiche
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 05, 2015, 09:23:31 AM
I mean the main reason I can see for Bard jumping ojn Mitsuki after making a wall on how Sky is scum is simply to wagonhop onto a more popular wagon. Worth noting he hopped onto me when Mitsuki started losing traction but has mostly been harping on about Mitsuki/Sky anyway.

Not to mention by his logic it is impossible for me to be scum; since his Mitsuki logic relies on Sky being scum and this is a 7/2 setup.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 05, 2015, 09:24:24 AM
To elaborate; if he thinks I am most likly to be scum right now there is no point in pushing the Mitsuki/Sky thing any longer, because the two situations are mutually exclusive, and he is undermining his current vote on me.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 11:41:45 AM
Maybe I won't be able to give a solid opinion on Raikaria but whatever. My non-solid opinion is that he's town.

Also @Bardiche I don't see that as scum rethoric, but now that I see it I don't see the post I linked as containing scum rethoric either so lol. I think this was scum rethoric though:

such a bogus reason to throw on at the end that it offends my sensibilities.

@Dormio please answer my question:

how is this (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162251.html#msg1162251) a scumtell and not a Raikariatell. How does this differentiate from his town logic? He posts bad logic as either alignment.


Is there really 8 and a half hours left in the phase? I'll claim if necessary, but I'd rather not do that.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 12:11:23 PM
"4 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic."

come on guys
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 05, 2015, 12:15:15 PM
One of them is me and there's nothing for me to comment on since my last post.

I have been making allusions at various points about the content levels, like suggesting that there's only 2 pages of content which is very low.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 12:23:45 PM
Dormio should say something since he's online and I don't think the Raikaria lynch is happening.

I just want the people who suspect me to say if they'd rather have me claim or they're going to vote someone else, and that should be soon because we're running out if time for this phase. If I'm going to claim it has to be now.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 12:31:58 PM
Same goes for Bardiche since he viewed the thread like half an hour ago but I guess he is writing something?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 12:33:20 PM
Well maybe not viewed the thread but he was online at the time so I guess he did.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 01:17:20 PM
I was getting 'server verification failed' error messages for about an hour, maybe others are having the same issue. 

I am not going to be around for phase end.  The other viable wagons are Mitsuki and Raikaria, and out of those two, I'd rather lynch Raikaria.  If we're playing the consolidate lynch game already, though, I'd want Rawr or Dan lynched since they are apparently deadweight. 

That probably puts you out of immediate danger, so I would hold off on claiming for now.  Or you could pseudo claim and say what you picked, not what you got, since in theory CF7 might have picked the same thing and you are actually vanilla. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 05, 2015, 01:21:37 PM
I was lied to by the votals. I probably won't be on the computer by the time the day ends. I might switch to Mitsuki before I go to sleep. Who knows?
Still want Raikaria lynched. Don't mind Mitsuki and Sky Palladium lynches, with preference in that order. (Mitsuki > Sky Palladium)
Also, RE: Mitsuki's question about Raikaria and why I think he's scummy in this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162251.html#msg1162251).
Raikaria's whole line of logic is bullshit. It's lazy and something that I could see scum getting behind because it lets them build suspicion on someone for no good reason at all.
The reasoning is in, like, the very same post that you linked.
Are you trying to prove Rawr's point?
i dont understand why mitsuki thinks bardiche is scum (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162568.html#msg1162568). ive read that post and actually looked at the links but i cant really tell whats going on. which in my book is just scum posting some kind of useless babble people will not really read and agree with it.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: CF7 on February 05, 2015, 01:24:50 PM
Ugh. I just can't motivate myself to play. I'd like to request a replacement, but i am not sure if it's possible.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 01:28:53 PM
THANKS CHROME FOR DELETING MY POST

Whatever, some final thoughts/reads:

- Dormio will become easier to read by D2, since it's by then that he tends to become motivated to post as town. Check his content and how contributing he is and that should make it easier to read him.

- No actual idea on Rawr, I tried to check IMP Mafia but that scum meta is too old to compare. Can someone link me to a more recent scum game from Rawr? I feel like I've asked this same question before, but I don't remember when.

- Sky Paladin is town since I don't see scum intent in his posts, I can follow his logic (whether I agree with it or not) and see how it's town-minded and overall gut.

- CF7 is another tough one, he's barely posted anything. Sadly that's a thing for him as both alignments, but I'm leaning town on him since as scum he seems to contribute less than what he's been doing. There's also how he tries to justify himself on why he hasn't posted as scum, which I haven't seen him doing this game.

- Raikaria is probably town since in spite of being a lynch candidate he's not defending himself in eternal wallposts that don't make sense. I was waiting for him to be under more pressure to see how he reacted but welp. Basically, the best tell I can think of to distinguish town Raikaria from scum Raikaria is that scum Raikaria tryhards to the extreme, while town Raikaria just lays in the background even when he's lynched.

- Zakeri is town for the same reasons I already stated; basically I think he'd try not to involve himself with the game as scum and he'd be much more passive and cautious. There's also something else but I think it's for the best if I don't mention it.

- Blah blah blah Bardiche is scum. I see scum intent behind his posts, I think he exaggerates his points in order to paint people as scummy and he misapplies scumtells without taking into account the factors that should be considered before applying them. There's also his tunnelling on me and how he chooses to vote for Raikaria instead of voting for me when he gives a lot more content on me.

- Dan is probably town, reads like town!Dan and there's also how he thought the same thing as me with regards to the Raikaria/Bard tie, which I don't think scum would bring up.


@CF7: I'd rather have you stay for the rest of the day and then request a replacement. Do you think your points on me still stand?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 01:32:19 PM
@Dormio: ok, but ask me to claim before you switch to me, so that you may take my claim into account.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 05, 2015, 01:34:38 PM
I don't actually care about claims one bit in this setup and will not be taking any claims into account when lynching.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 05, 2015, 01:35:42 PM
Addendum: Unless, by some unforeseen miracle, we get a counterclaim situation or something like that.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 01:38:24 PM
also @Dormio: the thing with your Raikaria vote is that yeah, scum could do that, but I see Raikaria posting stuff like that tough. I guess you don't, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

Also Rawr's point with me has nothing to do with what you're saying just now, specially considering that Rawr didn't read my Bardiche case, just a side post where I commented on Bardiche's meta.

... you're going to take out town's PRs that way, though. Not saying I'm one and not saying I'm not one, I just think that's the wrong way to go about lynches any game.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 01:40:33 PM
If, as you said, you don't care about my lynch/Sky's lynch and one of us is a PR, for example, wouldn't you rather vote someone else?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 05, 2015, 01:45:42 PM
No because the role means absolutely nothing if it doesn't belong to town.
And the likelihood of a supposedly pro-town role not belonging to the town is higher in this game compared to most others.
Also, I'm going to sleep. No clue if I'll be on the computer before deadline.
##Unvote
##Vote Mitsuki

Of course, if I really wanted to try to game the setup, I should vote Sky Palladium over you but I'm lazy and don't feel like thinking about these things.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 01:45:55 PM
Dormio, Mitsuki was the second draft pick.  As scum she would have to randomly pick from the list of town roles and pray nobody else had selected it lower than her in the priority list, which is pretty tough because she's right up the top.  So if she claims a role, yeah, she's that role. 

If she claims vanilla that means she picked the same thing as CF7 or is scum pretending to have picked the same thing.  I'd lynch a vanilla claim from the top of the list. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 01:51:33 PM
Duh. 

"If she was trying to claim as scum she would have to randomly pick from the list of town roles and pray nobody else had selected it lower than her in the priority list, which is pretty tough because she's right up the top."  Context matters. 

@Mod:  Could mafia players draft pick town roles?  Could town players draft pick the Strongman role?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 02:02:24 PM
I think Dormio is scum from his recent posts. I get that role may not be indicative of alignment, but when you don't care about someone else's lynch, even if you do find them somehow scummy, you're going to take their claim into account, specially if they've been hinting they're a PR. I don't think Dormio's missed that. Dormio's vote on me looks easy since he doesn't really have a case on me, and there's also the fact that it's convenient for scum to get rid of town PRs. Check this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162694.html#msg1162694) and the newer ones and you'll see that he has no case on me, he just comments that I "look worse" and never gives an explanation for that. I get that Dormio is lazy, but never to the levels of being proscum.

I probably won't be on the computer by the time the day ends. I might switch to Mitsuki before I go to sleep. Who knows?

This line is also questionable since he leaves his options open to vote me or not depending on how things turn out to be. Note that he votes me after I hint I have a PR.


##Unovte
##Vote: Dormio


If I'm lynched today please lynch Dormio and Bardiche next (in that order). There is no way Dormio is not scum.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 05, 2015, 02:13:41 PM
I'm reading this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=11408) and I'm still not clear: do you mean you think Raikaria is scummy now or not? Not not-scumreading means you ARE scumreading him?

I checked the post and I am now slightly understanding your beef with Mitsuki not commenting on what you feel is worth commenting on. Granted, Mitsuki's scope is extremely limited, but I do not see the scum intent as I honestly don't think there's a lot to comment on either, unless you want to be invited in for discussing things not relevant to scumhunting. (Or our scumhunting in any case.) I disagree with your beef there, because even after a second viewing, I don't see the immediate need to comment on it as being indication of "empty content post". Zakeri and Dan also post after it and do not provide more content than Mitsuki does in his post.

I'm curious why you do not have a similar beef with, well, basically everyone else who's ignored your post, or Raikaria who just quoted it all and went "wait what" but nothing else? I mean, it happens right before the Mitsuki vote (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162169.html#msg1162169), so I'm curious now about what distinction you made in that case.

Re: your claim that I've made stuff up: You're free to point out any fantasies in my arguments.

Raikaria: It's entirely possible to both think Sky Paladin is likely to be Scum and that Mitsuki is likely to be Scum. I'm voting Mitsuki because I have stronger feelings about Mitsuki than Sky Paladin. Mitsuki complains that where I see Scumreads, I should be seeing Nullreads because "Sky Paladin is always like this". This is a bogus case to me. If you consider that Mitsuki himself said that he has no scumreads (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=19023), or very few, it becomes weird and suspect when they focus their content on defending players instead of finding scum. Basically, I feel like Mitsuki's content is devoid of any Scumreads save for one single Scumread, which is on me over a disagreement for whether or not Sky Paladin's actions are scummy.

While Sky Paladin is behaving in an Anti-Town and even Pro-Scum way, Mitsuki fits the profile of Scum who have difficulty of fabricating cases and flounder about helplessly for a while, then finally settle on something.

I feel like there's some misunderstanding about my spiel where Mitsuki cannot know if I'm right or wrong. The reason I bring it up is because Mitsuki's case hinges on me being wrong about whether or not Sky Paladin's actions are scum-minded. The only way for Mitsuki to know that they are not scum-minded for a fact and thus, that I am wrong is when Mitsuki knows Sky Paladin's alignment already. The only way Mitsuki can know and satisfy both conditions is when he's Scum and Sky Paladin is not. My logic therefore doesn't rely on Sky Paladin being Scum.

Outside of that, it's an interpretation issue, and I feel that making a case based on disagreeing with an interpretation on the basis that "by default, Sky Paladin's anti-Town actions are null" is not in-line with a Town line of thought. If the best and only case you can bring up is that someone thinks anti-Town actions are scummy, I take serious issue with your alignment.

I dislike Raikaria's spiel that it's impossible to have more than two Scumreads. Accepted: there are only two Scum. Not accepted: only two players can be accused of being Scum. It's a false dichotomy to claim I can only have two scumreads maximum, and it's moreover false to purport I consider a Mitsuki/Sky Paladin scumteam.

I similarly dislike Raikaria saying that there is "not much to comment on". There's plenty of stuff to comment on. There is more than just my three posts,

I'm not fond of Mitsuki relying almost entirely on meta. But that's a playstyle disagreement, I suppose.


Bulletlist of things:
- Sky Paladin: How do you feel about the people who ignored your speculation post, and how do you feel about Raikaria who acknowledged it with "wait what" and then further did not comment on it?
- Mitsuki: We agree to disagree on whether Sky Paladin is normally anti-Town. You mentioned that you felt a "Town Bard should know better" about Sky Pal. Let's assume that I do not "know better". What changes, if anything?
- Under no circumstance should Mitsuki tell us what he picked. That furthers a Scum agenda.


Please consider that last point:

If Mitsuki claims to have picked Doc, and flips Vanilla, we now know what role CF7 has. This information is useful to Scum. Do not provide them information.

I am skeptical of Sky Paladin not considering this.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 02:17:05 PM
I dream that, one day, ActionDan may return to re-evaluate his vote, and since he townreads you, that would be one more vote on either Rai/Bard.  From there the wagons are tied - at least til Just not me over me votes you.  I don't think Rawr will change since he has no engagement with players in the thread except to taunt us that he isn't paying attention to the game, so the only other wildcard is Zak who is currently gutvoting you. 

Even if you think Dormio is scum, starting a new wagon when you are the lead wagon at this stage of the phase seems like a risky move.  I'm going to leave my vote on Bardiche. 

Cut-- Wall by Bard.  reading.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: ActionDan on February 05, 2015, 02:23:29 PM
If a cw has to be formed immediately I'll

##Vote: Raikaria

I'm still very much against a mitsuki lynch, and since Sky asked it's because I liked her early posts.  There are certain ticks in them that are demonstrative of critical thinking, in a town oriented way.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 02:26:55 PM
I cannot stay up late to answer your post in detail, Just, but I suspect we'll both be around in the next day phase to continue it. 

I'll just address this point:
"I am skeptical of Sky Paladin not considering this."

I am willing to dismiss the 1/36 chance that Mitsuki picked the same thing that CF7 did as insufficient to warrant consideration. 

In this circumstance Mitsuki can claim, "I claimed the same thing as CF7" which is functionally a vanilla claim and we would have to lynch her. 

However she twice hinted that she has a power role so I'm pretty confident she's not vanilla. 

A high draft pick scum could fake claim if they had a low draft pick buddy who scored a power role.  In effect they'd 'swap' roles to provide cover. 

There's more but Im exhausted. 

cut/Dan

I have ten more minutes.  Ten minutes!  To vote change.  And I will consolidate to Raikaria if there's no more Just votes. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: ActionDan on February 05, 2015, 02:29:28 PM
It's actually  a 1/6 chance lol
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: ActionDan on February 05, 2015, 02:30:35 PM
Not gonna happen from me anyway
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 02:35:53 PM
Sigh. 

Non game related post inc. 

Answers. (http://www.mathgoodies.com/worksheets/pdf/unit6_wks3_key.pdf)

http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/56502.html (http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/56502.html)

Quote
For two rolls, there is a 1/6 probability of rolling a six on the first roll.
If this occurs, we've satisfied our condition. There is a 5/6 probability
that the first roll is not a 6. In that case, we need to see if the second
roll is a 6. The probability of the second roll being a 6 is 1/6, so our
overall probability is 1/6 + (5/6)*(1/6) = 11/36. Why did I multiply the
second 1/6 by 5/6? Because I only need to consider the 5/6 of the time that
the first roll wasn't a 6. As you can see the probability is slightly less
than 2/6.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 05, 2015, 02:37:47 PM
Raikaria: It's entirely possible to both think Sky Paladin is likely to be Scum and that Mitsuki is likely to be Scum. I'm voting Mitsuki because I have stronger feelings about Mitsuki than Sky Paladin. Mitsuki complains that where I see Scumreads, I should be seeing Nullreads because "Sky Paladin is always like this". This is a bogus case to me. If you consider that Mitsuki himself said that he has no scumreads (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=19023), or very few, it becomes weird and suspect when they focus their content on defending players instead of finding scum. Basically, I feel like Mitsuki's content is devoid of any Scumreads save for one single Scumread, which is on me over a disagreement for whether or not Sky Paladin's actions are scummy.

While Sky Paladin is behaving in an Anti-Town and even Pro-Scum way, Mitsuki fits the profile of Scum who have difficulty of fabricating cases and flounder about helplessly for a while, then finally settle on something.

To me it seemed as if your lynchpin reason for voting Mitsuki was protecting Sky; who you just cased. To me, it seems suspect that you were voting Mitsuki rather than Sky after that.

And there's no issue with having multiple scumreads; but constantly pushing a scumpair while voting someone else is strange when we know there is only 2 scums. It feels to me that you should be voting one of Mitsuki or Sky; since you seem to have a far stronger case on them than you do on me.

Is there really that much else for me to comment on? I already talked about Sky's early posts, and I don't honestly think there is much indicative in people talking about my derping, and those are the main two topics. I could talk about how Dormio and Dan haven't done much of note; or other minor things like that but that's not going to get us anywhere.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 05, 2015, 02:40:36 PM
Re-reading my post, I need to correct that I was voting Mitsuki because I thought he was Scum, but I am now voting Raikaria because I think Raikaria is more likely to be Scum. While I'm positive about the fact he's gained clarity and remembers how to play the game now, I don't accept his explanation for why he didn't check the role list:

It's not possible to have drafted two months ago as drafting only started this week, and SB actually adjusted the size of the game on Jan 31 by dropping 3 roles. I don't feel it's acceptable to say you checked the role list two months ago and then didn't look at it afterwards in spite of changing gamestate. Let's assume for even a moment that Raikaria honestly believed Factional Kill referred to Vigilantes as well; I still do not accept that his state of confusion could last 48 hours and then the only thing worth commenting on is three posts I made. If after 48 hours you only have one read and no comments on anything else, well, I'm not inclined to think you're actually trying to scumhunt.


Cut by three posts.
Quote
I am willing to dismiss the 1/36 chance that Mitsuki picked the same thing that CF7 did as insufficient to warrant consideration. 

I don't think you know how odds work.

Cut by more posts. Posting now.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 02:42:09 PM
WE ARE NOT FUCKING ARGUING MATHS.  Google it or GTFO. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 05, 2015, 02:45:29 PM
Because Sky Paladin sucks at odds:
(http://i.imgur.com/yVvAik6.png)
There are 36 possible combinations. 6 of those combinations have the same result: they picked the same role. 6/36 is equal to 1/6.

QED, there's a 1/6 odds of Mitsuki and CF7 having picked the exact same role.


--

Raikaria, I haven't seen much worthwhile commenting on any of Sky's posts. If we discount your confused babbling, there's zilch. Surely something like, "Oh hey, I am town reading x" is in the realm of possibilities. Surely "I feel suspicious about x's posts" is also in the realm of possibilities? If you spend 48 hours flailing about with no clue on scum in any direction, I'd expect you to want to make up for lost effort and take the time to validate why x over y. After all, you were trying to resolve a three-way tie.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 05, 2015, 02:47:46 PM
It's not "arguing maths" so much as you proposing a pro-scum agenda and using mathematical illiteracy as excuse when called on it. Revealing what you picked helps Scum figure out who has what after you flip Vanilla. You should therefore never reveal what you picked, and only ever claim what you actually GOT.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 02:49:06 PM
Baka Bardiche-sempai, calling a girl a "he" is so rude </3

Let me reply to some of your points.

If you consider that Mitsuki himself said that he has no scumreads (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=19023), or very few, it becomes weird and suspect when they focus their content on defending players instead of finding scum. Basically, I feel like Mitsuki's content is devoid of any Scumreads save for one single Scumread, which is on me over a disagreement for whether or not Sky Paladin's actions are scummy.

Two scumreads now and a whole lot of townreads. There are people who don't have many reads but that's only natural, there hasn't been much content and a lot of the players are being inactive.
Anyways my intention was not to defend Sky Paladin, it was to comment on scummy stuff. Defending Sky Paladin was a side effect of what I was doing.

The reason I bring it up is because Mitsuki's case hinges on me being wrong about whether or not Sky Paladin's actions are scum-minded. The only way for Mitsuki to know that they are not scum-minded for a fact and thus, that I am wrong is when Mitsuki knows Sky Paladin's alignment already. The only way Mitsuki can know and satisfy both conditions is when he's Scum and Sky Paladin is not.

I don't know anything for a fact. You don't either (unless one of us is scum blah blah). All we can do to scumhunt is to rely on what we think to keep going. I think SkyPal isn't scum, I'm not certain that he isn't.

Outside of that, it's an interpretation issue, and I feel that making a case based on disagreeing with an interpretation on the basis that "by default, Sky Paladin's anti-Town actions are null" is not in-line with a Town line of thought. If the best and only case you can bring up is that someone thinks anti-Town actions are scummy, I take serious issue with your alignment.

I think there are better tells, which I'm using, than to discern whether or not Sky's actions are scummy. Anyways that wasn't the base of my case, the base is that I saw scum intent, and I tried to explain it the best way I could. I should probably review my logic once more tough.

You mentioned that you felt a "Town Bard should know better" about Sky Pal. Let's assume that I do not "know better". What changes, if anything?

Well, I thought you relied more on "meta" scumtells instead of standard scumtells, but now that I think about it and I've checked your meta I don't think you do. Sigh. I should probably review my case.
... that does not reply the question. Basically, I've seen scum applying standard scumtells without taking in mind playerstyle nor context, so I think that's a pretty decent scumtell. Scum need to bullshit cases at some point or the other, and that is an easy way to do it.

If Mitsuki claims to have picked Doc, and flips Vanilla, we now know what role CF7 has. This information is useful to Scum. Do not provide them information.

Why would scum claim a role they don't have? It'd just make them confscum.


Eh I'm not sure on Bardiche anymore, that last post gives me more of a town feeling than a scum feeling. I need to reconsider. Anyways @Bardiche and SkyPal you guys should give your thoughts on Dormio: Do you think he's town/scum? Why? What do you think of his vote on me?

10 new replies what the fuck
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 02:51:57 PM
I'm sorry, you are right.  I am very tired and sick and should have been in bed half an hour ago.  I was considering it only from random choice perspective e.g. the odds of two sixes coming up.  I didn't consider two 1s, two 2, two 3s ,etc. 

I therefore submit to you if she picked the same thing as CF7 to claim vanilla.  Which is sadly the same thing scum will have to claim.  And therefore no choice but to lynch. 

However its seems irrelevant because its strongly implied she is roled. 

cuts by walls no I want to sleep
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 02:58:25 PM
I'm not sure I follow Bardiche's logic on claiming/not claiming so I'll just ask: Bardiche, will it change anything for you if I claim? Will it serve some purpose? Obviously I won't just claim but also explain my logic on my pick. I'm not vanilla, anyways (wow, what a surprise).
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 03:00:30 PM
Mitsuki:  I could vote Dormio only from the basis that his votes so far have been very minimum effort.  I do feel Raikaria is a better lynch than Dormio.  Especially this close to deadline. 

His vote on you is at least consistent, he has disliked both you and I for the whole phase and he didn't wagon hop earlier when it would have been easier to do so.  I'm too exhausted to re-read properly.  I'd vote if there was no other viable wagon to secure a lynch but that's about it; and I think at this stage it's a choice between you and Raikaria. 

In any case I can't stay up any later, so I'll have to vote now. 

##unvote
##vote Raikaria
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 03:04:20 PM
Tallies haven't been posted in a while so

Mitsuki (4): CF7, Zakeri, Rawr, Dormio L-1
Raikaria (3): Dan, Bard, Sky L-2
Bard (1): Raikaria
Dormio (1) Mitsuki
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 03:07:09 PM
@mod requesting extension, it's only fair since MotK hasn't been working properly today (not for me, but for other people) and it didn't work two days ago as well (Tuesday morning). There's also the confusion going on with the time that there is left in the phase.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 03:07:38 PM
Ummm

If you want to lynch Raikaria you need to do it before he hammers Mitsuki.  Since all the players voting Mitsuki are afk. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 05, 2015, 03:08:34 PM
I'm not sure I follow Bardiche's logic on claiming/not claiming so I'll just ask: Bardiche, will it change anything for you if I claim? Will it serve some purpose? Obviously I won't just claim but also explain my logic on my pick. I'm not vanilla, anyways (wow, what a surprise).

My logic is thus:

Assume Vanilla!Mitsuki who picked JoAT.

If you claim, "I picked JoAT" and flip Vanilla, Scum now knows CF7's role.
If you claim, "I got Vanilla" and flip Vanilla, Scum still does not know what CF7's role is.

Therefore, it is beneficial not to claim your pick but what you got.

Re: Dormio. I've not paid much attention to him since he voted Raikaria and stuck to that. Your beef with Dormio seems to be similar to your beef with mine, though I agree with him that roles mean jack as far as determining alignment goes. Basically, roles are WIFOM this game due to its particular nature.

Therefore, even if you claimed, it would not change my opinion on you.

His vote on you is something I am curious about because while he telegraphed it, I don't understand the reasons at all, especially since a Raikaria lynch was still in the realm of possibilities. Is still, even.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 03:17:56 PM
@Bardiche: I don't think that my cases on you and on Dormio are very similar, they're actually completely different. Disregard what I said about his Raikaria vote, that is a different matter, and see how I comment on his vote on me in this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162774.html#msg1162774).

@Sky Paladin: I won't vote Raikaria not even for not-me-over-me since there's not enough support for his lynch. I just want an extension so that we may sort this mess out.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 03:19:08 PM
also @Bardiche if I was vanilla I'd know CF7's role anyways. I'm second on the draft list.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 05, 2015, 03:26:06 PM
@Bardiche: I don't think that my cases on you and on Dormio are very similar, they're actually completely different. Disregard what I said about his Raikaria vote, that is a different matter, and see how I comment on his vote on me in this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162774.html#msg1162774).

I had to read that three times to acquire clarity. I have similar concerns about his lack of reasoning and he doesn't emerge squeaky-clean out of it. Mrf.

I'd rather not hammer Mitsuki at this time. When I accept the explanation that Mitsuki did not intend to defend Sky Paladin and earnestly just believes he's normally a bit anti-town, I feel like the rest is unimportant. I may have kneejerked my reaction and was wrong, I am sorry.

Thinking more on Dormio.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 03:28:16 PM
I should probably explain better what I meant by Dormio's comment on roles. You got a scumread and they picked a protown role? Sure, it may not change anything. But if you say you don't mind a lynch (which he said here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162750.html#msg1162750)) and you don't really have logic on them but then that player claims a PR you'll want to go and consider voting someone else, since you're implying your suspicion isn't very strong. The fact that Dormio doesn't care about that and votes me after I hint towards having a PR reads as scum ignoring the facts to lynch a PR.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 03:28:44 PM
Rightyo.  My vote on Raikaria that I agonized over apparently does nothing since we couldn't lynch him unless he self voted.  I just wasted the last hour. 

I hope we do get a phase extension.  But we probably won't and I would hate this to either be a lynch of Mitsuki with four players away, or a no lynch. 

Bard, we probably can't get a lynch on Raikaria.  You're like my arch nemesis in this game.  What do you want to do?  Mitsuki wants a Dormio lynch.  You think I'm scum.  Can you two agree on something (ideally not lycnh Sky) for me to sheep because I have to sleep and I have a vote to help with. 

Like, I have to sleep.  I'm exhausted.  I just want to vote and bed.  I'll sheep if you two can agree on something.  Because I figure you can't both be scum. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 03:32:05 PM
Sky vote Dormio (owo)/

also @Bardiche I have trouble explaining myself so welp. If you find anything I said confusing, tell me and I'll try to clarify it.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 05, 2015, 03:38:44 PM
I re-read his posts, and a few things jump out at me:

1) Why Me instead of Not Me? (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162234.html#msg1162234) is a defence I dislike. That it came so early in the game is grounds to dislike it even further. I feel like he's putting too much emphasis on CF7's vote being on him but not someone else. "Don't look at me, look at others who do the same!" is how I read it. The last time I saw it it came from Scum, so that paints the rest of my re-read.

2) I realise that Dormio exhibited the same failure to scumread (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162236.html#msg1162236) that I accused others of. The blurb on Raikaria boils down to mean exactly nothing and is empty content. A lot of words boil down to, "I read him as null".

3) Mitsuki's right: Dormio never quantifies why he's suspicious of Mitsuki, but makes a deliberate choice to stay on Raikaria over Mitsuki, only to change that around with no explanation in any direction. Worse, there's nothing on Raikaria's posts at all, and no attempt to convince anyone to vote in the same direction.

I'm not too bothered by his vote on Raikaria, but I feel like he could've put more effort to get a lynch in that direction.

Cut by posts. I disagree that Raikaria can't be lynched. There's still three votes on Mitsuki's wagon that can be subjected to I Changed My Mind.
Mitsuki, we can clear up any remaining confusion tomorrow.

Let's lynch Sky Paladin.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Bardiche on February 05, 2015, 03:38:57 PM
##Unvote
##Vote: Dormio
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 03:49:15 PM
I can't really talk for what I'll be thinking tomorrow but more content to analyze and to discuss will be cool.

Also if Dormio does indeed flip scum then Bardiche isn't scum by any means. From what I've seen in his meta Bardiche doesn't tend to bus his buddies, so I don't think he'd go out of his way to superbus him at the last minute. That's a move that not even SB would be capable of doing, and that's saying a lot.


@Raikaria: Bardiche lynch isn't possible anymore and you're townreading me, so you should go ahead and vote Dormio as well.
Same goes for SkyPal. If he finally fell asleep I swear to god
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: ActionDan on February 05, 2015, 03:52:02 PM
I am here.  I would  vote dormio over mitsuki but only if raikaria can't be lynched
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 03:57:44 PM
I don't think there's enough support for a Raikaria lynch, and in any case he could always go ahead and vote me for not-me-over-me since I'm still sitting at L-1.
What do you think of Dormio?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 05, 2015, 03:57:59 PM
OK

##unvote
##vote Dormio

BTW Just troll success, I was like mrglrglRAGE and then scrolled on.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: ActionDan on February 05, 2015, 04:04:14 PM
I don't think there's enough support for a Raikaria lynch, and in any case he could always go ahead and vote me for not-me-over-me since I'm still sitting at L-1.
What do you think of Dormio?

Neutral
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: ActionDan on February 05, 2015, 04:09:45 PM
Raikaria gets to make the choice anyway lol.  What a day its been.

##unvote
##vote Dormio

Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: SB on February 05, 2015, 05:38:22 PM
Votecount 1.6
Mitsuki (4): CF7, Zakeri, Dr Rawr, Dormio (L-1!)
Dormio (4): Mitsuki, Bard, Sky Paladin, ActionDan (L-1!)
Bard (1):  Raikaria

Not Voting (0): None!

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. You have 2.5 hours left in the phase. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150205T2015&p0=136&msg=Day+1+Deadline&csz=1) A hammer is required to lynch.

Considering site problems/CF7 maybe needing a sub I'd be willing to give an extension if people want it.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 05, 2015, 05:56:58 PM
I'd rather vote someone doing nothing than someone doing something who I don't have a particular scumread on.

I'll hammer Dormio if it comes to it over Mitsuki.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Mitsuki on February 05, 2015, 06:07:39 PM
Eh, I get Dormio has recently voted but he hasn't really given the reasoning behind his vote. How is that better than other people? Who would you rather lynch than Dormio?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 05, 2015, 06:24:32 PM
Eh, I get Dormio has recently voted but he hasn't really given the reasoning behind his vote. How is that better than other people? Who would you rather lynch than Dormio?

Aside from Bard?

Dormio's pretty much tied number 2 with the other people not doing much of note [Read: Not Mitsuki; Sky; Zak or Bard].

I want to give Dormio time to defend himself. We all know how ED1 flashwagons tend to go, especially if it's on someone I don't read well. [I don't read Dormio AWFULLY either]
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 05, 2015, 06:25:12 PM
Basically every coin has two sides; before I decide which side I think is the best bet, I'd like to know what Dormio has to say.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: SB on February 05, 2015, 07:21:54 PM
Less than 55 minutes left! (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150205T2015&p0=136&msg=Day+1+Deadline&csz=1)
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: Raikaria on February 05, 2015, 07:23:16 PM
And I'm watching TV in a few mins so I'm hammering now.

I'm also crossing my fingers.

#Unvote
#Vote: Dormio
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 1
Post by: SB on February 05, 2015, 07:29:37 PM
Phase end.

Dormio, Town Jack of all Trades, was lynched Day 1.

It is now Night 1. Deadline is in 24 hours. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150206T1930&p0=136&msg=Night+1+Deadline&csz=1)
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 1
Post by: SB on February 06, 2015, 08:15:54 PM
Sorry for being kind of late.

ActionDan, Vanilla Townie, was killed Night 1.

It is now Day 2. Deadline is in 72 hours (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150209T2020&p0=136&msg=Day+2+Deadline&csz=1). With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: SB on February 06, 2015, 08:45:28 PM
Shadoweh subs in for CF7, effective immediately.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 06, 2015, 10:06:11 PM
##Vote: Shadoweh
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Raikaria on February 06, 2015, 10:14:46 PM
Either my activity is going to be very low the next 2 days because I'm at a con or I might replace out.

Also damnit Dormio why'd you have to be town.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 06, 2015, 10:17:12 PM
##Unvote
##Vote: DrRawr


That was a jest. But in more serious matters, I'm not liking DrRawr's content. I've decided I'd look around in the game, and there's a number of things I realised:

1) I don't have a reason to lynch Mitsuki at all. I understand their thought processes better and don't think it was a scum-minded angle. We'd probably reach an understanding of each other's playstyle more if we talked more, but shitting up the thread with our talk is probably just shitting up the thread, so we'll have to talk in private some time.

2) I don't feel like lynching Sky Paladin because it was a good early Day 1 case I stuck on too long, and that's no longer interesting now. Also he talks a lot, and I kind of want to focus on the people who've been using the Mitsuki/SkyPal/Bard fiasco to hide in the shadows.

DrRawr is one of those people. If you look at his posts in isolation, you'll see he deigned not to participate in RVS, and has not a single content post to his name except for one (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162695.html#msg1162695). That's pretty bad: it's lurking to the max. Rereading that content post, there's a particular line that sprang out to me:
Quote
i dont think bardiche is in the wrong with his case on sky paladin. i mean if skypaladin posts nonsense as both town and scum isnt it up to town to determine if its scum skypaladin or town skypaladin? we are talking about his content and we cant just hand wave it away.

This is cheerleading my case on Sky Paladin without taking a stance one way or the other. "Bardiche isn't wrong" doesn't equal "Bardiche is right", and DrRawr deigns not to make a judgement one way or the other. His Mitsuki "case" doesn't exist beyond highlighting one post and passing it off as "useless babble". I think this is the "scum rhetoric" Mitsuki was hunting for earlier. It's a gross exaggeration of what Mitsuki posts. There's no real reason given to vote Mitsuki and it looks like an arbitrary vote to make it look like he exists.

Result: Do Not Like.

I simlarly dislike Zakeri for vanishing during the latter half of the Day. Raikaria may have posted garbage, but I feel like he made at least an effort to be in the game. Also I remember he made a case on me and it wasn't utter shit, where he could've just as easily made a shit case and flung onto Mitsuki. I also feel as though a Scum!Raikaria would have no reason whatsoever to even pretend waiting for Dormio, since the more time Town has to discuss the better for Town; a Scum!Raikaria could've as easily said, "Dormio says he won't be back for deadline so #HAMMER".

tl;dr

I think Rawr is lurkscum
I think Zakeri is also lurkscum
but Rawr is worse because one post and the content therein is garbage

this much is possible for Bardiche what do you think


Cut by Raikaria. I swear. The people here.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 06, 2015, 11:38:23 PM
Well after seeing Dormio flip JoAT which is what I thought Mitsuki was crumbing, and after seeing Raikaria not hammering Mitsuki when he was a very valid counterlynch option and Mitsuki pulling a "Let's start a wagon on somebody who has zero votes rather than push not me over me" I was kind of back to team scum Raikaria/Mitsuki. 

But at least for the start of the day I really want to sheep Bard 100% on this
Quote
I kind of want to focus on the people who've been using the Mitsuki/SkyPal/Bard fiasco to hide in the shadows.

I called out Rawr, what, three times?  I would much rather we have flipped him than Dormio ugh.  So here's to helping.  ##vote DrRawr
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Mitsuki on February 07, 2015, 01:06:53 AM
Good thing scum killed Dan since otherwise I'd probably have begun this day by voting him.

I've been re-evaluating some of my townreads, since I was townreading 6 out of 7 players alive, and there are 2 scum left. I think my CF7 townread is weak, but I'm not getting any scumvibes from him either and fortunately Shadoweh will post enough for me to get a read on her. Overall null.

Checked Zakeri's meta, as scum he tends to add fluff to his posts, while as town he is more concise. In case you want to check, town post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16813.msg1093958.html#msg1093958), scum post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16555.msg1077433.html#msg1077433) (check the post linked and the one below).
I think Zakeri is scum based on this meta, if you check his content posts for this game (here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162259.html#msg1162259)) you'll see that most of what he's posted is him commenting on random stuff and not actually on scummy stuff. I think this is scummy regardless of meta, since scum will be motivated to add padding to their posts to seem active and contributing.

What I said about Zakeri usually being passive stands, but now I think it applies for him this game as well. I don't think he's been involved in the game, specially after leaving a wagon at L-1 close to deadline and not coming back to comment on it or to see how things were going.

##Vote: Zakeri

I think Rawr is more likely to be scum than CF7. I've been checking Rawr's town meta and he is way more active than this, has clear opinions and actively contributes to the game. Compare it to his play here, which has been extremely lazy and uninvolved. Again, I think this is scummy regardless of meta.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Shadoweh on February 07, 2015, 06:15:55 AM
Hi everyone, I read 0 perfcent of this game so far! how do you get vanilla in a game about drafting anyways
NOt THIS GIRL HA HA I PICKED NUMBER ONE

So how did Dormio get lynched as a Joat, and has there been a massclaim yet? This seems like a setup that would be broken the same way Prims suggesting we control all the rolls in Derfcom screwed over the mofia. I will actually read later when i won't be murffdered for it I LOVE YOU ALL
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Raikaria on February 07, 2015, 07:20:42 AM
No-one claimed. [I even held out on the hammer as long as I could to give Dormio time to do so :/] Indeed, half the reason I hammered Dormio over Mitsuki was general activity differences. :/

Man activity in this game is so low. I basically echo the points made about Rawr; but I'm not going to vote him now because he's got a fair few votes and I will literally be unable to move my vote for 24 hours after this point because IRL stuff I have had arranged before I even signed up to this game.

I don't often read into people's town/scum meta outside of 'Serela waffles less' and there isn't even Celery in this game. But Mitsuki's pointing out makes me curious.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Shadoweh on February 07, 2015, 07:26:54 AM
Oh, okay,, you lynched Dormio without a claim while he was asleep out of nowhere. That's really super.
This entire last page is three people and one of them was the main wagon yesterday, is anyone actually playing this game? >_>
Well, I find it unlikely that the three people who just turned a wagon onto anotheer person instead of lynching Rairai are scum, though his own contribution is to lynch the easy person.  First impressions mean everything, but uhhhh i find it worrying you all lived instead of.. Dan. Yeah.

Next page: Maybe there will be more players on it like the ones being voted!

BTW i still think massclaiming is a good idea since no one can lie about it
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Raikaria on February 07, 2015, 08:24:03 AM
I preferred the Dormio lynch to the Mitsuki lynch and there was like; 45 mins left during which I; the swingvote; was not available.

My hand was kinda forced.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 07, 2015, 08:58:27 AM
I've had bad timing with sleep schedule.
Also, the Persona 5 trailer may have had something to do with it, although whether it did or not is really just a nitpicking of when I woke up that day.

So with Dormio Jack, and Dan Vanilla, I'm getting the suspicion that one of my worries may be true. if so, Shadoweh and Mitsuki are the most suspect to me, but to be honest this is based on role-spec alone so there's no real reason for me to go into it.

gonna skip everything I didn't miss, since it's either not changed, become less important than before, or a combination of both.

Like to question Mitsuki on why CF7xDormio was an actual thing, but I'm sure people have already done the questioning already and also it's likely to go nowhere asking after Dormio's flip. My gut read still remains, and I know there's no defense against it, but that's partly why I like my gut read (Even if others don't.)
I was dismissive of the case on bard yesterday, but actually reading it made me feel better about Mitsuki.

Quote from: Just 84
Therefore, Sky Paladin is Scum, because he employs three tactics which all serve to distract Town and further a Scum agenda.

##Unvote
##Vote: Mitsuki
##Vote: Bardiche
There is a serious amount of misdirection going on here. Bardiche has a three strikes your out strong case on sky, and then votes Mitsuki on the basis that he had already sent in a secret poison-vig on sky that gave him instant cop-results and decided it was time to move on from that.

(Seeing myself post after the point I considered "Missed content" messes with my memories of how the game went while I was here.)

I wanna nitpick at Bard for the overreaction to Raikaria, but at this point He might just be trying to pressure people at random. I emphasize random here because he doesn't even give Mitsuki time to react to being Sky's scumbuddy.

Quote from: Sky Paladin 107
I agree that it is defensive.  Is defensiveness a scum-only quality?  Not rhetorical, I am genuinely curious. 
In itself, no. Everyone has or should have some stake in living through to the end of the game, if for no other reason than because your death contributes to your potential loss, regardless of the side you're on. That why I focused on the tone of the line and how aggressive it was. it implied higher stakes for Mitsuki, which scum subconsciously have both in persecution complex (Being the villains of the game), but also mathematical sense (Two scum lynches as oppose to three town lynches to game end). Of course the difference in numbers is negligible considering probabilities.

...Why do I suddenly get the feeling the Shadoweh and Bardiche are having private times right now?

Also I don't think claiming roles has any meaning for town. Not even as a means of convincing people not to lynch them at the end of the day. I feel like the way this game is set up, roles have no meaning outside of the actual results they produce, which it's not even likely that good results can be produced.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 07, 2015, 08:59:28 AM
to add to rolespec theory: My last line about it having no meaning is why I'm withholding my stupid rolespec theory mentioned at the beginning.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 07, 2015, 10:17:19 AM
Regarding claims, if it can be explained how we can do it to benefit town, I'm all for it.  I was penciling in some reverse-draft-order psuedo-claiming thing but I couldn't make it work so I'm just playing fill-in-the-numbers on my spreadsheet. 

I'm not real happy with the Dormio lynch either since we had five players around and we could have lynched any of our afk players eg Rawr instead of an active, albeit lazy and annoying one.  I think it was mainly because Mitsuki reacted to Dormio's vote park and sleep.  Well I was dumb and tired so too bad. 

I am kind of burned out but I will look at the action around twelve hours from now.  We had an OMGUS from Mitsuki.  Something from Bard I can't remember, a lazy "Tell me where to vote" from me, flipped town Dan, and Raikaria who chose to save Mitsuki over Dormio.  Raikaria who was, like, half the games main scum pick, including Bard's for a main part of the day. 

So yeah I have a lot of questions to ask when I get off the meds. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: SB on February 07, 2015, 12:08:31 PM
Votecount 2.1
Dr Rawr (2): Bard, Sky Paladin
Zakeri (1): Mitsuki
Bard (1): Zakeri

Not Voting (3): Shadoweh, Raikaria, Dr Rawr

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. You have 56.25 hours left in the phase. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150209T2020&p0=136&msg=Day+2+Deadline&csz=1) A hammer is required to lynch.

Raikaria has limited access over the weekend.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Mitsuki on February 07, 2015, 01:09:58 PM
Shadoweh's posts make me think she's town on gut. Reasoning seems legit and I can see what she's thinking. Still, I want to see more posts from her.

@Zakeri, I'd like to see you reply to my post.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 07, 2015, 01:59:28 PM
I think everything that's been posted thus far is stuff that... well, I just don't see much to reply to. I'd like it if people would like, y'know, scum hunt and be active instead of talk about tidbits in the area of, "This is stuff I want to talk about" and then not do. We've had quite

Quote
I was dismissive of the case on bard yesterday, but actually reading it made me feel better about Mitsuki.

I think this is interesting, because Zakeri has an admission of apparently not "actually reading" Mitsuki's case on me. I think this is significant, because the Mitsuki/SkyPal/Bard trifecta is easy the noisiest thing from Day 1.

His vote on me continues his behaviour from Day 1, where he focuses on a singular point and just hasn't much of a case. If you strip his post of every piece of nonsense he spouts, there's hardly anything left.

I'm tempted to move my vote over, but I don't want to let Rawr escape attention.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 07, 2015, 02:06:10 PM
"We've had quite" some time since the Day began, and it's disappointing that after 20 hours, no one's even deigned to reply to anything that's happened on Day 2 yet aside from Sky Paladin.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 07, 2015, 02:07:01 PM
EBWOP: I guess Mitsuki also kind of responded to Day 2 stuff.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 07, 2015, 02:35:51 PM
Rawr's online status says he was around six hours ago, so he's seen what we have to say. 

Given his day 1 performance, I will not assume he is busy, and in fact assume that he is avoiding the game because he is lurking scum hoping we will mislynch another towny. 

I'm off to bed.  Tomorrow I will review the game with fresh eyes and see if there was anything to my suspicion of Rai/Mitsuki/Bard to play with. 

Also eagerly awaiting Shadoweh's insight. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 07, 2015, 02:39:41 PM
I dislike using online times against people, I get online from uni and work to check Mafiers but that doesn't mean I've time to post!
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 07, 2015, 03:22:49 PM
So I re-read Zakeri's posts and I'm interested in his opinions on Not!Bardiche. This includes Mitsuki (you flip-flop about her in your post and conclude you "feel better": is that Town or Scum?), but I am also interested in Rawr (if you're voting me, clearly you take my current position in account) as well as your opinion on Raikaria and Sky Paladin.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 07, 2015, 06:53:57 PM
Rawr's online status says he was around six hours ago, so he's seen what we have to say. 
:smug:
Quote
I think Rawr is more likely to be scum than CF7. I've been checking Rawr's town meta and he is way more active than this, has clear opinions and actively contributes to the game. Compare it to his play here, which has been extremely lazy and uninvolved. Again, I think this is scummy regardless of meta.
if you look further back you will see me doing this every game
Quote
This is cheerleading my case on Sky Paladin without taking a stance one way or the other. "Bardiche isn't wrong" doesn't equal "Bardiche is right", and DrRawr deigns not to make a judgement one way or the other.
huh i thought of it as more of a why are people voting bardiche over his case on skypaladin. i didnt actually think that i was cheerleading sky paladin when i made that post.

i  still dont have much time to post atm but ill throw a vote down or something
##Vote: Skypaladin
i think scum are just creating uninformative lynches and night kills after actiondan got night killed. i cant see any particular reason as to why he was killed over shadoweh mituski and zakeri unless scum are part of that group or something like that. also i dont think ive ever seen someone call them out based on when they were lest online which makes me feel like hes just trying to rush through this lynch.

anyways i guess ill make some stupid as hell posts at work or something
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Mitsuki on February 07, 2015, 07:28:35 PM
i dont think ive ever seen someone call them out based on when they were lest online which makes me feel like hes just trying to rush through this lynch.

How is this enough to grant a vote on SkyPal. Also his vote was the second vote on you, how is that rushing a lynch?
What do you think of Zakeri and Shadoweh?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 07, 2015, 08:12:44 PM
@Zakeri, I'd like to see you reply to my post.
Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore your case on me, but the reason I didn't respond is because I don't think there's anything I can add besides distraction or white noise.

I don't really pay attention to meta unless it's surface level stuff like Raikaria always offending enough people on day one to get a serious wagon going. I also don't read myself too much, so I can't argue meta on myself.
I tend to be passive with a lot of things in life, As for the part of your case you put forth as a genuine scumtell, I think it works as a scumtell, so the only argument I can really put up against it is "I'm still town, though."

I don't think Shadoweh has said enough of anything to get any sort of read on her, Gut or not. Least, not at the time Mitsuki says she gets one on her.

I am flipflopping on Mitsuki in real life, too. I've mostly settled with her and Sky being town for now, as a result of the d1spat between those two and Bardiche. I didn't say anything of Rawr because he doesn't have any presence. I'm pretty certain this is a majority of the reason why people are voting for him, and I have no qualms with him getting lynched for it, either.
Also, for Raikaria, I do believe a lot of the way he treated early game rolespec is a soft towntell, so in general I'm leaning town on Mitsuki, Raikaria, and Sky. That leaves the other three to be targets of suspicion

speaking of on board with Rawr's lynch, Dr. Rawr you do realize that the first two-thirds of your paragraph explaining your suspicion on sky is a non-sequitor, right?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 07, 2015, 08:45:34 PM
You do realize that was like 3 days ago right?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Mitsuki on February 07, 2015, 08:47:26 PM
I don't think Shadoweh has said enough of anything to get any sort of read on her, Gut or not. Least, not at the time Mitsuki says she gets one on her.

Do not underestimate my gut townreads. I can get townreads pretty fast into a game, and they tend to be accurate.
At least on irl mafia but details. Shadoweh's line of reasoning seemed townie to me. I don't see how a few posts with opinions wouldn't be enough to begin to figure out what she's thinking.

Anyways, I don't like this. Commenting on reads is a thing but I don't like how Zakeri selectively tries to dissuade a townread on someone he has no read on. Note that he only comments on the validity of the townread itself, not on how such a read may help to read me, and he doesn't give a real explanation on why my townread would be wrong. Reads like Zakeri is afraid of being PoEd as scum and therefore tries to dissuade townreads on other people.
Also, if Zakeri was actually motivated to get people to use "proper" reads he'd comment on other people's scumreads and try to dissuade reads opposite from his own, since he'd want to get his suspects lynched. I find the lack of such an intentionality scummy as well.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 07, 2015, 08:50:51 PM
How is this enough to grant a vote on SkyPal. Also his vote was the second vote on you, how is that rushing a lynch?
What do you think of Zakeri and Shadoweh?
It's enough for me to vote sky paladin and explains the action Dan kill. Pretty obvious he's rushing it or elese he wouldn't have talked about the least time I was on the forum and how I haven't posted. Also 4 to lynch so assuming bard isn't Scum it takes someone else then ez Scum hammer because i haven't posted
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 07, 2015, 10:15:20 PM
DrRawr, why exactly are you using the ActionDan kill to indict Sky Paladin? I don't think we've ever used Night Kill Speculation to seriously finger someone, and I have no idea in what way an ActionDan kill implicates anyone. Killing ActionDan over Zakeri, CF7 and Mitsuki implies Sky Paladin scum exactly how? Why are you singling those three out?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 07, 2015, 11:03:11 PM
I'm not directly using actiondan death to implicate skypaladin. I'm just saying with what I feel like skypaladin rushing for the lynch on me I feel like it's Scum agenda to get rid of the weak townies. Why those 3? Because I feel like they have the highest chance of having a role seeing as Dan flipped vanilla. Unless everyone after cf7 chose the same role as him.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Raikaria on February 07, 2015, 11:04:46 PM
It's 11pm; I'm back; I see nothing much seems to have occured.

I am going to wait until morning and post stuff before I leaver then. Too late for mafias.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 08, 2015, 05:06:15 AM
Rawr;

Quote
i  still dont have much time to post atm but ill throw a vote down or something

You've made no effort to address Just's case on you.  You are clearly only voting me because I am voting you. 

Quote
i think scum are just creating uninformative lynches and night kills after actiondan got night killed. i cant see any particular reason as to why he was killed over shadoweh mituski and zakeri unless scum are part of that group or something like that. also i dont think ive ever seen someone call them out based on when they were lest online which makes me feel like hes just trying to rush through this lynch.

Couple of points. 

1 - 'I think scum are just creating uninformative lynches' who specifically is creating 'uninformative' lynches? 

2 - 'i cant see any particular reason as to why he (Dan) was killed'.  Nobody was asking why Dan was killed.  You brought it up out of nowhere. 
My guess?  Dan is never night killed by scum, except when scum are new players, as he's too valuable as mislynch material in LYLO.  So he would have been targeted either because scum were looking for roled town outside of the likely medic coverage, or he got invited to a scum-neighbourizer like last game and outed himself as roled. 

But since we're talking, I'll echo Just - why do you think Dan was nightkilled, and how do you think it implicates me? 

3 - 'i dont think ive ever seen someone call them out based on when they were lest online' I call players out for being online and not posting all the time, and in fact Mitsuki *this game* called out Dormio, Bard and Raikaria in the previous day phase for this exact thing.  How does this equate to 'rushing a lynch' and why does it apply to me and not Just? 

4 - 'I feel like it's Scum agenda to get rid of the weak townies.'

Please talk more about point number 4. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 08, 2015, 06:02:53 AM
nope
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 08, 2015, 07:25:56 AM
OK.  I'm upgrading my vote from 'Apply pressure to possible lurkscum player' to:

Rawr is scum for everything Bard outlined in his first case,
+ an OMGUS vote at the start of day 2
+ failing to substantiate or support his vote
+ defending his actions apparently involves flailing around and saying whatever things he wishes and refusing to clarify. 
+ keeps talking about the 'scum agenda' and what scum want to do without substantiating why he thinks/knows it. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Shadoweh on February 08, 2015, 11:44:53 AM
Are you sure you aren't just voting him because he's making what you see as a bad case on you, because that's how your response comes off to me. >_>
I guess it doesn't matter much. Reading over it your case is pretty good, I don't think you've ever had a high opinion of Dan so I can't see how his nightkill would implicate you either. (Rawr is more likely to get killed for the weirdness  :] )

I mean, the alternative is that Mitsuki and Bardiche are having a scum pajama party and just high-fiving each other in the scuum QT endlessly because i really can't see scum feeling like they have to do much when this is a five-page game. Its pretty worrying that everyone I would consider high priority lived (Cf7 is not exacctly at the top of the kill list either sorry bro). But Bard just feels interested in solving things and i like the way zakky-chan sounds. Also since no one seems interested in claiming im just going to drop it, it's not that important right now anyways. (probably doesn't matter since we didn't figure it out ahead of time.)

I'm kind of confused I had a chance to replace in in the first place, having looked at the ruleset. >_>
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: SB on February 08, 2015, 11:55:23 AM
Votecount 2.2
Dr Rawr (2): Bard, Sky Paladin
Zakeri (1): Mitsuki
Bard (1): Zakeri
Sky Paladin (1): Dr Rawr

Not Voting (2): Shadoweh, Raikaria

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. You have 32.5 hours left in the phase. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150209T2020&p0=136&msg=Day+2+Deadline&csz=1) A hammer is required to lynch.

Raikaria has limited access over the weekend.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 08, 2015, 12:10:11 PM
Quote from: Mitsuki 203
I don't see how a few posts with opinions wouldn't be enough to begin to figure out what she's thinking.

Zakeri selectively tries to dissuade a townread on someone he has no read on.

and he doesn't give a real explanation on why my townread would be wrong.

What? What opinions?
All of her opinions as of those two posts were stuff she could have said during pre-game and commenting on Dan being the weird choice for nightkill.
No one should have any opinion on her.

And why are you suggesting I'm picky with "Proper" reads? There's also not a lot of dissuading I need to do at the moment, since the only votes on not-my-suspects are yours on me for being passive, and Rawr's on sky for inadequetly-explained-reason-that-will-probably-get-him-lynched-anyway. Not to mention, I was dissuading a townread on somebody who was still one of the people I didn't think was town.

When I think of potential reasons for Dan being the target, there's one that comes to mind that suggests at least one of Mitsuki and Shadoweh must be town. I can't say I believe it whole-heartedly, though.

Speaking of Shadoweh and votecounts: Who would you be voting for Shadoweh?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 08, 2015, 12:34:03 PM
It's pathetic that we're nearly two days into Day 2, and there are still people who get by with having made no contributions to scumhunting.

It's also pathetic that this is Day 2 and Raikaria is swinging by without contributing again.

I'd rather play with Serela than any of you, this is retarded.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 08, 2015, 12:49:02 PM
Serela may not make these games worth it, but at least he makes them fun.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Mitsuki on February 08, 2015, 05:48:49 PM
What? What opinions?
All of her opinions as of those two posts were stuff she could have said during pre-game and commenting on Dan being the weird choice for nightkill.
No one should have any opinion on her.

Meh, I guess it's not "opinions" really and more that it gives off a town feeling for some reason I can't explain. Still don't like dismissing reads for no good reason, specially when you find gut a valid tell yourself.

And why are you suggesting I'm picky with "Proper" reads? There's also not a lot of dissuading I need to do at the moment, since the only votes on not-my-suspects are yours on me for being passive, and Rawr's on sky for inadequetly-explained-reason-that-will-probably-get-him-lynched-anyway. Not to mention, I was dissuading a townread on somebody who was still one of the people I didn't think was town.

I don't think you understood what I meant.
Scum don't like townreads on town since those make it easier to PoE them as scum, so they'll go and dissuade them. You went ahead and dissuaded a townread. Sure, town can also do that. The reason why I think your read comes from scum is that there was no real reason on why you'd discredit my Shadoweh townread as town, so it makes me think you're scum.
Also there's no way I'm voting you for being passive, I'm voting you for adding fluff to your posts, not being involved in the game (which involves being passive, but it's not the same) and selectively dissuading townreads. Some of those points are also backed up with meta.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 08, 2015, 10:17:09 PM
I'm not going to shift my vote.  Rawr can answer fairly basic questions about his vote and his thoughts this game. 

We find mafia through discussion.  If we don't hold people accountable for their discussion, then there's no point having discussion.  If we're not having discussion then there's no game. 

Shadoweh do you exist.  I seem to have missed you giving any indication who you think might be scum. 

Do we need a phase extension?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: SB on February 08, 2015, 10:20:55 PM
There are 22 hours left. Votes haven't changed. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150209T2020&p0=136&msg=Day+2+Deadline&csz=1)
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 08, 2015, 10:38:42 PM
@Mitsuki

I'm probably not going to vote Zak in the short term because it seems it's mostly you responding to his /gut on day 1.  Which to be fair was pretty awful.  I'm kind of holding you responsible for the sudden wagon and death of Dormio so I'm a little mistrustful of your decision to pick up Zak.  If I missed some important detail please clarify.  I feel his vote on Bard post was reasonable. 

Quote
I don't like how Zakeri selectively tries to dissuade a townread on someone he has no read on.

I don't think that's what happened, to me it looked like "How can anybody give a town read on Shadoweh when she's posted so little content" and calling in to question you handing out town reads.  We had this discussion on day 1 though so I won't do it again now.  Other than Zak, who do you think is scum?  I think you've townread myself, Bard, Raikaria, and Shadoweh now.  So that kind of leaves Rawr and Zak as your scum picks.  Am I mistaken?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 08, 2015, 10:41:00 PM
@Bard

Quote
I'd rather play with Serela than any of you, this is retarded.

Quit complaining and do something about it.  Ask pressing questions on players you think are hiding.  Vote the one you hate the most.  Invite others to do the same. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 08, 2015, 10:43:17 PM
I realise my Mitsuki comment is ambiguous;

Mitsuki voted Dormio as a late day 1 OMGUS.  It seems her vote on Zak is a day 2 OMGUS.  If she is only playing by gut, and her gut was shown to not be an absolute arbitrator of justice, then I am not inclined to trust that gut. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 08, 2015, 10:45:46 PM
@Bard

Quit complaining and do something about it.  Ask pressing questions on players you think are hiding.  Vote the one you hate the most.  Invite others to do the same.

I'm voting the one I hate the most and you guys should do the same. When part of the players have deigned not to even bother with opinions (Shadoweh+Raikaria), and the other part deigns to live in vacuum and go all "lalala~" and pretend there isn't a Day 2 (Zakeri, DrRawr), it becomes difficult to decide one way or the other.

Hey, DrRawr, claim with what action you targeted ActionDan last night, kthx.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 08, 2015, 10:50:48 PM
you could say i AXEDtion dan
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 08, 2015, 10:51:12 PM
There we go, Rawr admitted to being Scum. Can we lynch him now?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 08, 2015, 10:51:55 PM
could i get a cup of sugar first?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 08, 2015, 10:59:39 PM
No, go vote yourself so we can lynch you and end this horribly lethargic Day. Then string up your partner Day 3.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 08, 2015, 11:01:19 PM
Dammit I was this close to gambiting Rawr instead of posting what I did before.  But I decided NO WE SHOULD DO THIS THE RIGHT WAY AND NO LIES THIS GAME pffffffff.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 08, 2015, 11:02:46 PM
Dammit I was this close to gambiting Rawr instead of posting what I did before.  But I decided NO WE SHOULD DO THIS THE RIGHT WAY AND NO LIES THIS GAME pffffffff.

So, what, you're admitting to being Rawr's scumbuddy?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 08, 2015, 11:03:13 PM
gj sky paladin
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 08, 2015, 11:05:29 PM
lol in hindsight that looks hilariously bad. 

No, in my previous two games I played before here on mafiascum, on day 2 pseudo/hypo claimed cop and then doc.  Ultimately it resulted in mafia getting caught and a win for town, but I copped a lot of flak from other players.  I decided to avoid doing it this game because the player base is much smaller here and I remember how much crap Schezo got into back when he blew up NNR. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 08, 2015, 11:06:00 PM
##Vote: DrRawr
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 08, 2015, 11:07:41 PM
gj sky paladin

I don't think you have a lot of room to talk considering you folded to the last guy to draft asking you what you did last night. I mean, you don't honestly believe I'm the Tracker and that no one picked that role, right?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 08, 2015, 11:08:22 PM
But hey, a guilty admission is a guilty admission, I'll take it.

Sky Pal, you should bullshit if it gets results. Unless Rawr is a lying Townie in which case he should just be banned from playing Mafia.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 08, 2015, 11:08:33 PM
im pretty sure with you being neighbor nothing is safe to claim
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 08, 2015, 11:12:00 PM
im pretty sure with you being neighbor nothing is safe to claim

So you guys did cop my role, huh. I guess we're stringing up Zakeri next since he alluded to it here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163340.html#msg1163340):

Quote
...Why do I suddenly get the feeling the Shadoweh and Bardiche are having private times right now?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 08, 2015, 11:12:14 PM
Good, we solved the game! GG.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 08, 2015, 11:14:26 PM
Oh.  That looks pretty open and shut. 

Good job Bard.  Sorry I gave you a tough time on day 1.  I just thought you, Mitsuki, and Raikaria were all scum.  Nothing personal. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 08, 2015, 11:18:12 PM
Oh.  That looks pretty open and shut. 

Good job Bard.  Sorry I gave you a tough time on day 1.  I just thought you, Mitsuki, and Raikaria were all scum.  Nothing personal.

Not really "good job Bard", my neighbour assisted a lot. We had a lot of talks at the start of the Day so I'm super happy with who my neighbour turned out to be.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Mitsuki on February 08, 2015, 11:18:36 PM
I'm kind of holding you responsible for the sudden wagon and death of Dormio so I'm a little mistrustful of your decision to pick up Zak.

Yeah well I thought he was scum and I didn't want him to be lynched so I think I did the right thing. Also it's totally Dormio's fault for "not caring" about mafia in an active way. I try to look for people's intentions, and Dormio definitely didn't have the intention of helping his alignment. What do you want me to do about people playing for something other than to win?

I don't think that's what happened, to me it looked like "How can anybody give a town read on Shadoweh when she's posted so little content" and calling in to question you handing out town reads.

No, he didn't find me scummy/townie for my read, he just tried to discredit the read itself. Leaving aside how good/bad it is, do you see this game's Zakeri trying to get people to read other people properly? I don't. So my conclusion is that he was trying to keep the pool of suspicious people from becoming smaller, so as to avoid being PoE'd as scum.

Other than Zak, who do you think is scum?  I think you've townread myself, Bard, Raikaria, and Shadoweh now.  So that kind of leaves Rawr and Zak as your scum picks.  Am I mistaken?

Man, I said I thought Rawr was scum at the beginning of the day. I'm townreading everyone else anyways, so yeah.

Mitsuki voted Dormio as a late day 1 OMGUS.  It seems her vote on Zak is a day 2 OMGUS.  If she is only playing by gut, and her gut was shown to not be an absolute arbitrator of justice, then I am not inclined to trust that gut.

SkyPal, OMGUS means voting someone just because they voted you. I never did that, and I'm also not only playing by gut. Are you reading my posts?
Anyways you should find scum by yourself, not by someone else's reads.


cut by thousands of posts
WAIT HOW IS THE GAME SUDDENLY SOLVED
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 08, 2015, 11:22:21 PM
~Magic~

##Unvote
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Mitsuki on February 08, 2015, 11:23:24 PM
Eh, if what Bardiche brings up about Zakeri being the rolecop is real Zakeri should just give up and claim scum, so that we can end this game already with no more pain
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 08, 2015, 11:25:54 PM
There's also the possibility my neighbour is Scum with Rawr and claimed a Track result on Rawr to me for MASSIVE TOWN CREDIT!! and afterwards be coy and lie about being my neighbour for the magic three-way LYLO with SkyPal being the swingvote and getting tricked.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 08, 2015, 11:26:12 PM
I WOULD NOT BE ME IF I WASN'T RIDICULOUSLY PARANOID
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 08, 2015, 11:27:00 PM
But yeah I kinda doubt that's the case so Zak's very likely the last Scum, should claim and we can end this game and go back to posting about cute kittens.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 08, 2015, 11:28:04 PM
##Unvote
wait for it.....
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 08, 2015, 11:40:05 PM
Just tell Zak to go surrender, we're on to his games.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 08, 2015, 11:40:59 PM
yea sure let me go phone him. i have him on speed dial
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 09, 2015, 03:18:12 AM
I openly surrender my position.
does this count?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 09, 2015, 03:19:10 AM
Also, the reason why I'm dissuading a town read on Shadoweh is because I don't think it's possible to have a town read on her at the time you made the read. Even Gut reasons have an explanation if you dig hard enough, but I don't think there is any explanation possible.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 09, 2015, 08:23:59 AM
##Unvote
##Vote: Dr. Rawr
no reason not to.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Raikaria on February 09, 2015, 09:47:24 AM
I come back and apparently things are solved.

I don't have much to add on the matter; because I am fairly confident that Bard's Tracker claim is legitimate; after all; Tracker is the role I wanted but did not get [I am a Vanilla]; and we were tied. So I have every reason to believe a tracker claim.

Not gonna vote yet because I *think* Rawr is L-1?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Shadoweh on February 09, 2015, 11:23:34 AM
I'm voting the one I hate the most and you guys should do the same. When part of the players have deigned not to even bother with opinions (Shadoweh+Raikaria), and the other part deigns to live in vacuum and go all "lalala~" and pretend there isn't a Day 2 (Zakeri, DrRawr), it becomes difficult to decide one way or the other.

Hey, DrRawr, claim with what action you targeted ActionDan last night, kthx.
Sorry, I thought today just looked really obviously between Zak and Rawr and Rawr was posting 10x worse then Zak, also lulz. Also apparently I can wait until there's a flip to actually do some rereading. (I'm sorry that apparently saying 'yes i want in i have some free time' is the symbol to make seventeen people swamp me overnight)

Zakky-chan are you suggesting that you can't get a townread off of me for just one post, geez. That's pretty weird for you to say actually since you usually get a good townread when I post my train of thoughts. I'm kind of iffy on this just being open and shut based on a scumslip thought, but I'm pretty sure we'll get another result tonight to go off of so.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Mitsuki on February 09, 2015, 11:26:06 AM
Eh, does this mean Zakeri is not scum or what?

Anyways Rawr is at L-2, but he clearly wants to self-hammer so let's wait a little more to see if someone has something to say about this game before voting him. Raikaria, will you be around near deadline so that you can place a vote? I will, so we will only need one more vote to hammer this maflord.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Bardiche on February 09, 2015, 12:45:09 PM
##Vote: DrRawr
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 09, 2015, 01:04:15 PM
##Vote: Dr Rawr
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: SB on February 09, 2015, 05:42:58 PM
That's hammer. Only 4 and a half hours late!

Dr Rawr, Mafia Goon, was lynched Day 2.

It is now Night 2. Deadline is in 24 hours (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150210T1745&p0=136&msg=Night+2+Deadline&csz=1).
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 2
Post by: SB on February 10, 2015, 05:35:05 PM
I'm starting the phase slightly early because of distractions.

Nobody died last night.

It is now Day 3. With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. You have 72 hours to decide on a lynch (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150213T1745&p0=136&msg=Day+3+Deadline&csz=1).
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Mitsuki on February 10, 2015, 06:44:09 PM
I was going to suggest massclaiming but I'm not sure it's a good idea anymore since nobody died. Thoughts on the matter, guys?

##Vote: Raikaria

To be honest I'm not sure who out of Zakeri and Raikaria is scum, but I feel slightly stronger about this. "Why Raikaria?" I've realised that my townread wasn't strong, and upon rereading there have been things about him that I've found scummy.

D2 he's been busy. I've also been going to cons while in mafia games and it's awful, so I get that he couldn't say much. However, I don't like the usage Raikaria made of the time he had. Instead of giving his thoughts on Bardiche, who was his D1 main suspicion, he proceeds to to justify his contribution on the Dormio lynch (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163323.html#msg1163323), not once but twice (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163330.html#msg1163330), when Shadoweh comments on it. Note that she wasn't blaming anyone, she just mentioned it.

"Maybe he still thought the same about Bardiche" no way, otherwise he'd at least have voted for him. I don't like how Raikaria suddenly forgets about Bardiche when the latter is not a lynch candidate anymore.
Also, I feel that town would be more motivated to post about their reads if they had some time to post and that scum would try to defend themselves when nobody is blaming them, simply because they know they are guilty.

I basically echo the points made about Rawr; but I'm not going to vote him now because he's got a fair few votes and I will literally be unable to move my vote for 24 hours after this point because IRL stuff I have had arranged before I even signed up to this game.

I feel like this is too much of a justification not to vote Rawr. Sure, Rawr was at L-2 and I get that some people don't like to leave players at L-1, but this comes across as self-conscious.

In addition, regarding Rawr; he defended Raikaria a couple of times, when Raikaria was a wagon, saying he found him townie. I know that Rawr said Zakeri was town as well but Zakeri was under no pressure by then, so I'm inclined to think that the Raikaria defense is the one that's telling.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 10, 2015, 07:01:47 PM
I feel like the game right now is between Me, Raikaria, and Mitsuki.

I'm not going to make up reasons why I should be lynched because I shouldn't.

I quickly reviewed and Raikaria is my biggest suspect because He's been making use of all of his v/la excuses to make rather unhelpful comments and not voting. At all. Most likely candidate from my pov.
Mitsuki on the other hand does get some suspect points. She spent the entire time going after me while keeping her suspicion of Rawr on the backburner in case it turns up. She sort of hangs back and lets others pursue Rawr yesterday while pushing the case on me.

##Vote: Raikaria

I think we are approaching the point where claims will start to benefit town greatly, but I don't have enough to say for certain it can.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Bardiche on February 10, 2015, 07:36:14 PM
##Vote: Zakeri

Completely lacklustre scumhunting. I outlined in the neighbourhood how I feel his posts are empty and dissected them mostly, but I'll re-iterate it here for those who're not with the Neighbourhood Think Tank:

Zakeri's posts (you can go ISO him) for the most part contain a lot of fluff. If you take this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162261.html#msg1162261), for example, but he starts out with being wishy-washy about me for no reason whatsoever, makes an off-hand comment about Dormio he doesn't follow up on, invites rolespec by asking how role priority affects role picks (seriously that's useless garbage discussion), and explains the factional kill is, in fact, the factional kill.

What does this post add much? Very little in the way of actual scumhunting. The previous post at least makes clear he thinks Raikaria is scummiest (which he follows up immediately with "feel better about Raikaria"; why weaken your own vote??), but the post preceding that has more of the same, where you can basically distill the following things:

1) Zakeri agreed with Mitsuki and then stopped doing so after concluding Sky couldn't possibly not have known scum could communicate.
2) Sky posted useless stuff.
3) RPS is a null tell.

And then the bit on Raikaria using bullshit. Seriously, where's case-making? I don't like his posts at all, because they follow a theme of excessive talk about the setup and very little content dedicated to hunting scum.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Mitsuki on February 10, 2015, 07:40:27 PM
Oh by the way Zakeri, what did you mean when you said the fragment about Bard and Shadoweh having private times? Also, what do you think of Shadoweh?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 10, 2015, 07:50:51 PM
I thought they were the scumteam.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 10, 2015, 07:51:34 PM
Also my feelings on Shadoweh are complicated, but I'm sure she'll swoop in and sort that out somehow.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Bardiche on February 10, 2015, 07:53:07 PM
So you mention neither Shadoweh nor CF7 at any point, and then elevate them out of nowhere to "scum team with Bard", without ever making that clear outside of the extremely vague "I think Shadoweh and Bard are having private times"?

Seems legit.

##Unvote
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Bardiche on February 10, 2015, 07:53:18 PM
I mean LOL.

##VOTE: Zakeri
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 10, 2015, 08:00:03 PM
I was just reading through the thread and saw Shadoweh replace in and then got bad memories of how I was left behind so often. Oh my dear Shadoweh~ :ohdear:
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 10, 2015, 08:03:02 PM
also, even though I've discounted her as the core circle of suspect, I've no indication of her alignment one way or the other. Depending on things She might actually take Mitsuki's place on the circle list of suspects.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Bardiche on February 10, 2015, 08:33:50 PM
At least you're trying to make us doubt, so commendation for that.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 10, 2015, 08:55:17 PM
I don't really have a choice. I would give up, but I can't do that since giving up wouldn't end the game.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Bardiche on February 10, 2015, 09:54:54 PM
Well, Raikaria had a mod-sanctioned leave of absence. What exactly do you use as the basis to determine he's Scum? Why not Shadoweh or even Sky Paladin?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Bardiche on February 10, 2015, 10:05:14 PM
I discussed with neighbours.

##Unvote
##Vote: Raikaria


L-1.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Bardiche on February 10, 2015, 10:09:26 PM
To clarify: I like the case on Zakeri. Not in small part because I conceived it myself. But when I examine Raikaria's content this game, it becomes plainly obvious that he's refuged in audacity on Day 1, and despite his mod-sanctioned leave of absence on Day 2, the times he did post contained nothing of importance. It felt like he made a token effort to be active but never really did much with those tokens.

There's really no compelling reason to suffer Raikaria to live, and in the chance Zakeri is not the final scum, it's more difficult to detect scum between Total Lurker and Low Content than just a battle of Low Content: I am confident that a situation where Zakeri, Sky Paladin, Shadoweh, Mitsuki and I are alive is much more likely to yield proper scum hunting than a situation where Raikaria is alive, simply because his contribution to this game has been marked by gross disregard for actually playing the game.

tl;dr let's lynch Raikaria for being lurkscum to the max, and if there's still a scumbag after that, we'll figure it out through pressing them, and actual scumhunting. There's no scumhunting to be done when one party persists in hiding in the shadows.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Bardiche on February 10, 2015, 10:10:19 PM
##UNvote

Obligatory "let's avoid quickhammer" unvote, but pretend my vote is on Raikaria.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Shadoweh on February 10, 2015, 10:34:08 PM
I was just reading through the thread and saw Shadoweh replace in and then got bad memories of how I was left behind so often. Oh my dear Shadoweh~ :ohdear:
Zakky-chaaaaan <^_^> Don't worry, I had a good night's slahahahaha okaay I stayed up all night reading mafia. I thought Raikaria was suspicious when I replaced in and the feeling hasn't diminished now, instead of going for an easy way out on Raikaria or Zakeri, Rawr was insistant on pushing a weird case on Sky Paladin. I can't say I'm very good at telling when Zak is lying to me but I do not think Zak would give up this easily since it didn't happen when we were buddies torn sadly apart in.. was it Dwarf Fortress? The one where we poisoned Conq and I woke up dead. That one.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Shadoweh on February 10, 2015, 10:36:26 PM
Also showing up after the wagon disappeared on him Day 1 with a kind of gaping 'uh yeah i'll lynch the easy person sure' look reminded me of how cool I like to play it when people forget why they made quickwagons on me. He didn't seem mad at all? Usually he gets more riled up, I think.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Bardiche on February 10, 2015, 10:46:32 PM
Shadoweh pls post more I love seeing you post I was sad all day yesterday when you didn't post. :'(
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Shadoweh on February 10, 2015, 11:21:16 PM
I'm sorry! My heart is for everyone! The other reason I don't think this is as straightforward as it looks is Rawr didn't claim another role. Having been neighbours I know Rawr is a looney but if he has someone good with him he can follow orders just fine, so his partner is probably inexperienced and didn't think they had to tell him not to claim the nightkill.

..Even if it was funny. <.<
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Raikaria on February 10, 2015, 11:25:21 PM
I thought this game was solved; so I am unsure as to why people are voting for me.

I feel like this is too much of a justification not to vote Rawr. Sure, Rawr was at L-2 and I get that some people don't like to leave players at L-1, but this comes across as self-conscious.
Come on you even quoted the post...

I come back and apparently things are solved.

I don't have much to add on the matter; because I am fairly confident that Bard's Tracker claim is legitimate; after all; Tracker is the role I wanted but did not get [I am a Vanilla]; and we were tied. So I have every reason to believe a tracker claim.

Not gonna vote yet because I *think* Rawr is L-1?


So don't try to justify a lynch on me with me not wanting to put Rawr at L-1; because I already thought he WAS L-1.

Zakeri's case on me seems to basically be 'He was v/la so didn't vote'

I'm honestly fine with being lynched; because I'm Vanilla Town and that should end the game; how MotK Town can lose 5/1 with a save obviously a factor is beyond me.

But ideally I'd rather lynch the scum.

And considering as Bardiche pointed out in 235 (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163676.html#msg1163676); Zak seemed to know something he and Rawr would have no other way of knowing...

#Vote: Zakeri
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Raikaria on February 10, 2015, 11:27:04 PM
And honestly; don't try to quickwagon me for being lurkscum when I was v/la D2 and D3 only just started. I was in London. At a convention. From like 9am for travel until midnight.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Mitsuki on February 10, 2015, 11:33:08 PM
So don't try to justify a lynch on me with me not wanting to put Rawr at L-1; because I already thought he WAS L-1.

That's actually the second time you justified not voting Rawr. I didn't find that one scummy. What I'm talking about, and quoted, is from a couple of days before.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Bardiche on February 10, 2015, 11:37:04 PM
Quote
I don't have much to add on the matter; because I am fairly confident that Bard's Tracker claim is legitimate; after all; Tracker is the role I wanted but did not get [I am a Vanilla]; and we were tied. So I have every reason to believe a tracker claim.

You raising this is actually interesting: you won the RPS and therefore picked before I did. If you tried to pick Tracker, and did not get it, what made you think -I- would be able to get Tracker?

That logic doesn't check out at all.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 11, 2015, 12:11:57 AM
Couple of things. 

First up I was pretty sure in the previous day, Zak claimed scum three times in a series of small posts:
"I openly surrender my position" (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163720.html#msg1163720)
Argues against Mitsuki's clear on Shadoweh because it's not possible to have gut on no content. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163721.html#msg1163721) 
Votes Rawr (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163761.html#msg1163761) because no reason not to. 

And then today -
"I would have given up but it would not end the game." (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164024.html#msg1164024) - But we know there's no ITP since the OP said 2 scums 7 towns. 

But then this from Bard
Quote
You raising this is actually interesting: you won the RPS and therefore picked before I did. If you tried to pick Tracker, and did not get it, what made you think -I- would be able to get Tracker?

Which I saw yesterday and also agreed.  Raikaria said a lot of impossible things this game. 

Anyway I figure I'll hold off voting for a liiiiittle while, but I feel like Rawr's suicidal apathy last phase was because Zak and he were up for lynch and they didn't have the gumption to wagon each other. 

Oh right, lack of nightkill.  I presume that means we either had a doc block or a town block on a scum hit or scum idled. 

I think a mass claim would be helpful since Zak has to claim rolecop and that would explain why he outed Just as a neighbour.  And if he lies about his role, I will know. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Mitsuki on February 11, 2015, 12:23:52 AM
Why don't we just ask Zakeri to claim, then? I've been thinking about it and I don't think we should massclaim yet.

@Zakeri: claim your role.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: SB on February 11, 2015, 12:42:16 AM
Votecount 3.1
Raikaria (2): Mitsuki, Zakeri (L-2)
Zakeri (1): Raikaria

Not Voting (3): Shadoweh, Sky Paladin, Bard

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. You have 65 hours left in the phase. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150213T1745&p0=136&msg=Day+3+Deadline&csz=1)
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 11, 2015, 01:28:54 AM
I've been carrying some heavy information about roles since the beginning of the game as a result of what happened. I've been debating whether I should give full details or just claim Vanilla, but I think the full claim might help others reach a conclusion faster.

I picked Doctor.
I protected nobody on night one.
I protected nobody on night two.

Quote from: Raikaria
Zakeri's case on me seems to basically be 'He was v/la so didn't vote'
It's actually more that you were active lurking than simply not voting, but either way you were making some time to read the game and not offering anything useful with that time.

Quote from: SkyPaladin
"I would have given up but it would not end the game." - But we know there's no ITP since the OP said 2 scums 7 towns. 
the joke here is that I'm insisting I'm not the last scum.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 11, 2015, 01:48:51 AM
##vote Zakeri
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 11, 2015, 01:52:16 AM
##unvote

WAIT I just understood what he said there.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 11, 2015, 01:55:08 AM
My first thought was "You picked doctor and didn't protect anybody?  SCUM" but then I realised what he meant by just claiming vanilla. 

You picked doc but got vanilla.  OK. 

That claim does not clash with what I have so I can't call him a liar. 

If somebody higher up can counter claim him though then let's wrap this game up.  Otherwise I can vote Raikaria. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 11, 2015, 02:07:47 AM
Actually I realise that nobody will counter claim Zak so. 

Consider this my vote on Raikaria.  I think that's L+1 now.  I see Bard didn't hammer so I assume he has something else up his sleeve and will not hammer at the moment. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Shadoweh on February 11, 2015, 02:23:59 AM
How would you counterclaim that anyways? "You can't know that there is a Dio Brando in the game because I AM DIO BRANDO!"
I fully admit I first read that and thought Zakeri was giving up really dramatically though. >.>
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 11, 2015, 02:30:14 AM
I would counterclaim him because I know what roles aren't in the game, so if he claimed one of those he would be dead.  Similiarly he could not also claim doctor unless he had actually picked doctor. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 11, 2015, 02:36:57 AM
I could also potentially be counter claimed by Shadoweh and Mitsuki working in conjuncture, or by a Tracker result, in the hypothetical that I happen to be lying. Of course the tracker result could be questioned anyways because of the lack of NK.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 11, 2015, 06:11:05 AM
While we're waiting, Zak, could you please explain what this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163720.html#msg1163720) was about, seeing as you are now claiming that you are NOT scum who had given up?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 11, 2015, 09:13:41 AM
Because ... I surrendered? And the game ... didn't end when I did?
It doesn't prove anything because it can be taken as a joke that I submitted to SB wasn't true, but that's the kind of joke I've been pushing forward.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Raikaria on February 11, 2015, 10:20:35 AM
You raising this is actually interesting: you won the RPS and therefore picked before I did. If you tried to pick Tracker, and did not get it, what made you think -I- would be able to get Tracker?

That logic doesn't check out at all.

I wasn't told if I won or lost the RPS actually. I assumed I lost.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Raikaria on February 11, 2015, 10:41:39 AM
Actually...

Between be being confused about rolespec D1; v/la D2; and town putting me at 'L+1' D3; I actually think this is the best idea; we know there's a Tracker in the game; and we know there's a Doctor.

We know the Doctor knows one inno from the lack of nightkill D2 as well.

And we know it's 5-1.

And let's face it; scum ain't killing me anyway.

Outside of lynching the scum; which is probobly either Zakeri or Mitsuki IMO; this is the best play. Thin the playing field for the power roles. I'm too out of the loop after D2 to really catch up or be too useful anyway and I'm just a nilla.

#Unvote
#Vote: Raikaria
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Mitsuki on February 11, 2015, 11:48:09 AM
Raikaria, why do you think I'm scum?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Raikaria on February 11, 2015, 12:42:07 PM
I think it's less likely than Zakeri, but put simply; you don't have much proving you either way; you pushed pretty hard on Dormio D1; and you clearly missed some of my reasoning for not pushing Rawr D2 to attack me. Also you came up in a few other people's roleshens posts as a possible scum.

It's basically that I know you pushed hard on two townies, and Roleshens dosen't seem to make you squeaky clean.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Bardiche on February 11, 2015, 12:57:46 PM
Sky Pal, please claim. Since you claimed Zak couldn't lie, I'm interested now.

Raikaria, I was told I lost. Five times. In a row.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 11, 2015, 02:52:50 PM
I think there is strategic value in holding on to my role at this stage.  If your town network realllllly wants to know, let me know your posting on behalf of the neighbourhood watch. 

Having reviewed day 1, I'm convinced Raikaria is scum. 

Main points: 
Rawr's main action for the majority of day 1 was to pop in and defend Raikaria. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162292.html#msg1162292)
For the vast majority of the day, both Raikaria and Rawr failed to place votes (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162499.html#msg1162499). 
They both voted at pretty much the same time, with Rawr voting Mitsuki (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162695.html#msg1162695) and Raikaria voting Bardiche. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162707.html#msg1162707)

I had long puzzled over why scum!Raikaria didn't hammer Mitsuki when he was under threat, and I resolved that it was to avoid Raikaria/Rawr being found together on a flip of town!Mitsuki. 

This on top of the many, MANY errors in play that I and others have picked up. 

I'll sleep on it but I plan to hammer when I wake up. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Raikaria on February 11, 2015, 03:33:07 PM
Sky Pal, please claim. Since you claimed Zak couldn't lie, I'm interested now.

Raikaria, I was told I lost. Five times. In a row.

And I wasn't told either way. I was just asked to confirm I wanted Tracker.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: Shadoweh on February 11, 2015, 05:25:25 PM
EDIT: Raikaria beat Bard in RPS and as a result was eighth to draft.
:V
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Mitsuki on February 11, 2015, 05:30:07 PM
##unvote

no hammers yet SkyPal
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 2
Post by: SB on February 11, 2015, 05:50:42 PM
Votecount 3.2
Raikaria (2): Zakeri, Raikaria (L-2)

Not Voting (4): Shadoweh, Sky Paladin, Mitsuki Bard

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. You have 48 hours left in the phase. (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150213T1745&p0=136&msg=Day+3+Deadline&csz=1)
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Pregame
Post by: Raikaria on February 11, 2015, 05:52:54 PM
:V

And I did not see this.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Bardiche on February 11, 2015, 06:05:44 PM
Quick one more unvote to hammer Unvote
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Bardiche on February 11, 2015, 06:05:52 PM
hammer Not Voting**
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Mitsuki on February 11, 2015, 06:19:25 PM
Raikaria, what was your logic behind selecting tracker?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Raikaria on February 11, 2015, 07:20:11 PM
Raikaria, what was your logic behind selecting tracker?

Didn't think other people would pick it; being low priority.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Shadoweh on February 11, 2015, 10:41:54 PM
Didn't think other people would pick it; being low priority.
The only real investigative role in this setup is the Tracker, it's actually the most important town role imo. You can't be serious.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Bardiche on February 11, 2015, 10:56:52 PM
##Vote: Raikaria

I'm done with Raikaria.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Shadoweh on February 11, 2015, 11:03:25 PM
I don't see any value in prolonging this either. >_> I'll hold off just to give Sky P his chance to pipe in when he wakes up, in case this is somehow not over today. (I will probably refrain from signing up to the next game though unless someone sends me fan letters)
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Bardiche on February 11, 2015, 11:05:32 PM
Mafia on MOTK is dead, I agree.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Shadoweh on February 12, 2015, 07:19:57 AM
Skyyyy even I passed out and I slept for less then you did
come on i wanna like
sleep more without having to hit f5 alot
and tkae moyre delicious horse tranquizzliszers
they are soooo good nad make me y head feel better
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 12, 2015, 07:43:37 AM
Sorry, I only had time to glance at the thread and then I went to the castle all day.  Just got back now!

##vote Raikaria

GG let's see how many times Dormio called me retarded in gyard
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 3
Post by: SB on February 12, 2015, 07:57:00 AM
Hi this is a phone post.



Raikaria, Vanilla Townie, was lynched Day 3. It's now night 3 and you have 24 hours to send actions etc.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: SB on February 13, 2015, 07:54:02 AM
Bard, Town Neighbouriser, was killed Night 3.

It is now Day 4. Deadline is in 72 hours (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150216T08&p0=136&msg=D4+Deadline&csz=1). With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 13, 2015, 10:13:41 AM
I'm at work will share thoughts when I get home.  I think that's MYLO so I'm going to hold off voting for now.

I assume we at least have two confirmed town in the form of tracker with a clear on one person for last night + themselves.

More to come...
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: Mitsuki on February 13, 2015, 10:21:13 AM
Zakeri is conftown, he went nowhere last night (wow I'm tracker, what a "surprise")

If you guys trust me the game is solved since we can NL, I can get doc protect + track SkyPal/Shadoweh and then regardless of who dies I'll survive and know who is scum with a 100% guarantee. Also in case I died you can assume the doc to be scum lol
I'm going to be busy as hell this weekend, so if we don't get enough time to discuss we can always NL since it's MyLo. (@mod: is it mylo? since it's not been announced. Also you were supposed to bring up I have limited access orz)

If you're wondering N1 I tracked Rawr to Dan (yay guilties), N2 I also tracked Zakeri. Tracked him again N3 since nokill gambits are a thing, and if town he was the easy mislynch so


SkyPal you should claim ASAP
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 13, 2015, 10:23:21 AM
Because I am the only player not invited to neighbours QT I beleive, meaning scum was in the topic and knew they could make a hit without being tracked last night.

So who was in the QT? I'm guessing it was Shadoweh, Mitsuki and Zakeri.  And by that count I think that's a town clear on tracker + who they tracked last night. And I'd like to think that if all of you were in the QT scum!Sky would have idled the hit since I wouldn't know if it was safe to make the hit, thus pseudo clearing me. 

But I figure Bard wouldn't have ACTUALLY invited Zak since he thought Zak was scum. And that would mean scum!Zak would not have know. If he could make a hit last night, and idled it again.

Which means we have a scum doc.

But I don't know for sure, so I'll the people in the topic tell me where it's at.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: Mitsuki on February 13, 2015, 10:27:26 AM
SkyPal stop the WIFOM and claim
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 13, 2015, 10:31:36 AM
While I appreciate your attitude it would be amiss to do anything before Shadoweh gives her version of events. 

Because I expect her to claim tracker also :/
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: Shadoweh on February 13, 2015, 10:39:19 AM
Tch, I told you it would have been cooler.
Re: No-Lynching. I think it would be pointless but if you want to try it your way today then sure.

Mr. P you should cut the baloney, you know very well I'm not going to claim tracker. You already decided my role was scum a few posts ago. (Not that I blame you since it's the only thing you can do right now.  :] )
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: Mitsuki on February 13, 2015, 10:39:59 AM
Shadoweh is doc though, idled N1 (thanks CF7) and protected me N2 and N3.
Also I'm the first neighbour, Bard crumbed it D2 by saying somewhere we'd have to talk in private. And Bard got the Rawr track result since he kind-of announced it, so

to further prove my role we could always NL and I'd track you/Shadoweh and announce my track results.

oh if you're wondering nobody made it to the neighbourhood, it closed after Bard's death

cut
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: Shadoweh on February 13, 2015, 10:45:50 AM
But I figure Bard wouldn't have ACTUALLY invited Zak since he thought Zak was scum. And that would mean scum!Zak would not have know. If he could make a hit last night, and idled it again.

Which means we have a scum doc.
See? You already knew I was the doctor and made a beautiful post teeming with insider knowledge. So, you picked rolecop over roleblocker, really? Awful choice for a scumteam. (Although the idea that you picked Doc not expecting CF7 to really want to play doctor with people and ended up with two vanillas is lulzworthy.)
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: Shadoweh on February 13, 2015, 10:56:40 AM
(Also someone should tell SB The night is over <.< )
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 13, 2015, 01:09:28 PM
Quote
Which means we have a scum doc.

Quote
See? You already knew I was the doctor and made a beautiful post teeming with insider knowledge.

That's very interesting.  At no point do I ever say that you are the doctor or that you are scum.  That is because I honestly expected Mitsuki to be a scum doc faking a tracker claim. 

I picked doc because it's a role that town cannot afford to be without.  Sadly, Zak and you apparently beat me to it.  I crumbed this choice also, I'll dig it up later.  I fake crumbed rolecop after Bard suggested that bullshitting was a good strategy if it nets results. 

Since I know Zak is town from Mitsuki's clear (scum or otherwise), my choice is between scum-tracker that bussed her buddy or a player with no actual content and no confirmed blocks.  I'm probably voting Shadoweh.  But I'll abide by Mitsuki's plan if Zak is cool with it. 

I'll sleep on it. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 13, 2015, 01:13:16 PM
I'll add that the only reason I haven't been applying pressure to Shadoweh was because I thought she was the tracker having private time with Bard.  I'll review her actions when I get up, but from recollection, I don't recall Shadoweh existing this game.  If I was rolecop I would have known that Shadoweh was the doc. 

I honestly walked into this phase expecting scum!doc!Mitsuki to have killed off Zak. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 13, 2015, 01:59:26 PM
Bed/fridge logic
For me to be scum rolecop and know Shadoweh is doc, that means I idled a night hit to rolecop Shadoweh and learn she is doc. And then hit Bard[/b], who is not the doc and also the one person who trusted me because we both took down Rawr. 

That would be stupid.  I did not do this. Therefore we can conclude I there was a doc amongst Shadoweh/Mitsuki because it was public knowledge after Zak's claim yesterday day phase.

Anyway

A preliminary look at Mitsukis plan looks very good. I'll have to paper check it to be sure. Since we know Zak is town and scum Shadoweh can't kill tracker Mitsuki, that would leave a LYLO with Shadoweh/Mitsuki Sky, and Mitsuki with a confirm guilty or a clear.  Unless scum idles again in which case...nothing lost or gained.

Mitsuki just to humor me though: why did you track Rawr?  It seems like a fairly oblique shot. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 13, 2015, 02:59:54 PM
I don't have much time to skim over it but I think the no-lynch plan is a good idea.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 13, 2015, 03:00:36 PM
I'll be on later today to discuss it more.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: Shadoweh on February 13, 2015, 05:33:26 PM
Bed/fridge logic
For me to be scum Roleclop and know Shadoweh is doc, that means I idled a night hit to Roleclop Shadoweh and learn she is doc.
Don't be silly, again. Everyone except you, me and Mitsuki claimed.  Mitsuki can't be the doc because the doc can't self-protect. Zakeri wouldn't have known who the last role is but you would have.

I also can't have been the tracker if people knew CF7 wasn't here to get a track N1, but it's not like that was advertised. <.<

If you want to no-lynch, Mits, then just decide when you want to end discussion today. I already said in the QT why I think your actions aren't scum tracker so etc.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: Mitsuki on February 13, 2015, 10:09:16 PM
Mitsuki just to humor me though: why did you track Rawr?  It seems like a fairly oblique shot.

Because he seemed scum to me when I reread N1. If I recall correctly it was overall because I didn't feel like he was involved in the game.
I wanted to remain silent about it so that people wouldn't realise I was the tracker, so I just brought up the meta points I had against him (since other people were unlikely to bring those up)

I want to go with the NL plan; however, let's use some more time to discuss. I'm going to be very busy this weekend, anyways, so not ending the day inmediately is for the best.
Also I want SkyPal to post his doc crumbs.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Mitsuki on February 13, 2015, 10:53:47 PM
SkyPal, what did you want to do by crumbing rolecop? What did you aim for?

also I really want Zakeri to talk.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 13, 2015, 11:26:24 PM
Quote
SkyPal, what did you want to do by crumbing Roleclop? What did you aim for?

Sure.  In this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164051.html#msg1164051) I was sure Zak was scum. 

I said:
Quote
I think a mass claim would be helpful since Zak has to claim Roleclop and that would explain why he outed Just as a neighbour.  And if he lies about his role, I will know. 

Because Just had picked up Zak as being a rolecop scumbuddy with Rawr and I wanted Zak to be forced to claim rolecop.  Or, if he wasn't a rolecop, then he would think I was the rolecop because of my last comment, which was nearly true because I had POE'd all the roles already down to tracker + doctor + (one missing in action), and I wanted scum to think I had that (missing in action) instead of just vanilla.  I knew there must be a doctor in the game because I had picked it and didn't get the role.  I didn't expect it to be Zak. 

Quote
Also I want SkyPal to post his doc crumbs.
Note that since I didn't actually get doc, my crumbs take the nature of somebody who knows there is a doc in the game from the get-go rather than "I protected player x" because I couldn't submit an action. 

My first main post of the game outlined (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162069.html#msg1162069) why I thought revealing the draft order was a bad idea.  That's because I knew there was a doc in the game higher up than me. 

Later I wrote it again [urlhttps://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162296.html#msg1162296]in bold[/url] because holy cow, people were arguing against it. 
Quote
The value of the list is to suggest who the doctor, if there is one, should cover this night phase. 

I knew there was a doctor on day 1.  To be fair, that's not a hard assumption for even scum to make though, because what are the odds nobody picked doctor? 

On day 3, when we were deciding between Raikaria and Zak, I commented (http://url=https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164051.html#msg1164051) on the no-hit somewhat randomly. 
"Oh right, lack of nightkill.  I presume that means we either had a doc block or a town block on a scum hit or scum idled."

There was one option missing from that lack of nightkill; and that was that a town roleblocker had blocked a mafia hit.  I didn't raise that option because I knew there was a doc in the game, and since I had (mistakenly) POE'd Zak as scum rolecop, there could be no roleblock and a doc was the only role option.  I knew there was a doc because I'd tried to pick it and didn't get it. 

Responding to the next thing in the next post. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 13, 2015, 11:48:19 PM
Shadoweh
post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164569.html#msg1164569)

Quote
Zakeri wouldn't have known who the last role is but you would have.

Zakeri would have known the last role is doc, and that there was a doc amongst you and Mitsuki.  And he's known it since the very start of the game, because he is the number 3 draft pick, and he picked doc, and didn't get the role.  When he claimed that he picked doc but got vanilla, he made it public knowledge.  So the argument that I'm a scum role cop that knew you were the doc doesn't hold water, because the time I would have *found out* you were the doc would have been night 1 when Rawr got tracked making the kill, or night 2 when the hit got idled.  And then, after having identified the doc and drove significant attention on my buddy and got him basically lynched before the tracker claim even came to light, elected to hit the one person who trusted me.  That's stupid. 

No lynch option:
This is only viable if scum have another no-hit up their sleeve.  Since they could just idle their hit again and we are here for the same thing. 
@Mod - Can scum no-hit this game?  Can scum no-hit more than once? 

My main concern coming into this day phase was a scenario of Shadoweh and Mitsuki counter-claiming tracker. 

Paper checking:
If we idle, and scum choose to hit, and...
scum!Mitsuki -> Would hit town confirmed Zak or doc!Shadoweh.  Claim she saw Sky or Shadoweh make the hit, on the balance of things, probably "I saw Sky hit Zak" since Shadoweh already trusts her for gg. 

scum!Shadoweh -> Would hit town confirmed Zak since she can't hit Mitsuki, but then would walk into LYLO with Mitsuki knowing for sure Shadoweh is scum, so they'd countervote.  Up to Sky to ruin LYLO again. 

We already know Zak is town and delaying the phase only removes one player we can trust from the decision making process.  It does increase the likelihood that we get a confirm guilty/additional clear from Mitsuki.  The operating question is 'do we trust Mitsuki?' 

I'm focusing on day 2, when we lynched Rawr.  Mitsuki started out voting Zak.  I presume, though, she announced in the QT before doing this that she had tracked Rawr and was voting Zak to dissuade suspicion that she was the tracker.  If so, A-game move.  I want to be sure it wasn't scum throwing their buddy under a bus, because Rawr's defense was strangely lacking and then he claimed the scum hit.  That seems odd. 
So, for Shadoweh:  Did Mitsuki volunteer to check Rawr, as she suggests in her response, earlier?  Or was she convinced to do it by Bard?

My feeling is that she didn't get convinced to do it and legitimately thought Rawr was scum and tracked him for it.  This is consistent with her day 2 behavior. 

So for me, that makes the only possible solution be that Shadoweh is scum doc. 

I'll now go through and highlight some of my day 1/day2 posts where I helped towards a Rawr lynch. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Night 3
Post by: SB on February 13, 2015, 11:53:59 PM
I'm going to be busy as hell this weekend, so if we don't get enough time to discuss we can always NL since it's MyLo. (@mod: is it mylo? since it's not been announced. Also you were supposed to bring up I have limited access orz)

Rule 10.

@Mod - Can scum no-hit this game?  Can scum no-hit more than once? 

Scum can no kill to their heart's content.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Shadoweh on February 14, 2015, 12:07:36 AM
So, for Shadoweh:  Did Mitsuki volunteer to check Rawr, as she suggests in her response, earlier?  Or was she convinced to do it by Bard?

My feeling is that she didn't get convinced to do it and legitimately thought Rawr was scum and tracked him for it.  This is consistent with her day 2 behavior. 
For Zakeri's sake I'll answer this: Mitsuki tracked Rawr before she was in a QT with Bardiche. In fact there's no way Bard could have asked her to track first so I have no idea why you would float this as a possibility. Also Mitsuki's first post in the QT is basically 'lol i have a guilty on rawr'. I said it there last night when Bard asked if it were possible Mitsuki faked it. I'm p sure that a scum Mitsuki would not have started the day by telling a townie that her partner was scum.

Re: Mod questions, why would you eliminate the only chance for a no-lynch to be productive, that's why I didn't say why I thought it would be unproductive. >_> Well, the answer to that is p obvious but etc.

Sky P: I'm not actually claiming that you had to rolecop me. If there are two choices and one of them had a doc protect on them, it's pretty obvious which one is the doctor.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 14, 2015, 12:13:01 AM
Pending SB's response re: scum idling hits, my feeling is "Let's go with Mitsuki's plan, and I'll vote Shadoweh in LYLO."  We'll see if that gets me killed over Zak :D 

I want to establish that I'm town so we can make this clearly Mitsuki vs Shadoweh, because that's what it is, and the sooner Zak/Mitsuki are on the same page, the easier this will get. 

EG Mitsuki was town clearing me early in the game for some reason.  I'd like to think that's because of things I posted. 

Some posts where I think my town intent is clear:
Post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162296.html#msg1162296)
I address almost all of the players (I miss CF7/Shadoweh inexplicably) including Rawr, "The phase is already half over and you have zero posts.  I have no problem consolidate voting you if you don't improve."

Less effective but in the same basic style (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162422.html#msg1162422), I engage several players and pressure the afk ones. 

I continue to engage (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162570.html#msg1162570) in a very active way with Bard/Mitsuki.  I will eventually case and vote Just (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162580.html#msg1162580).  During this encounter/the following day, we all seem to mutually town clear one-another, and go looking for other fish to fry. 

I didn't go for the obvious day 1 easy lynch of Raikaria until my main lynch option of Bard was unavailable, and provided reasoning here. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162673.html#msg1162673)

I unnecessarily (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162702.html#msg1162702) expose myself to a strong risk of criticism by defending Mitsuki, who was at L-1. 
Quote
I'm in the situation where as a town player, I've observed Mitsuki start a case while she wasn't under any pressure, and I feel like the scum thing for her to do would have been to sit back and let town do something random, or to join in on another wagon (Raikaria and mine were the main ones iirc).  That's why we have that third on wagon scumtell, right? 

We didn't know it at the time, but apparently we had two town wagons at L-1.  I asked for an alternate consolidation wagon.  Mitsuki suggested Dormio, which I disagreed with (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162799.html#msg1162799) and voted Raikaria, finally.  I didn't vote Dormio because I didn't completely trust Mitsuki, but I reasoned both Just and Mitsuki could not be scum, and that's when I made my vote to Dormio. 

I think, overall, I had a pretty awesome day 1 for trying hard not to lynch towns. 

Day 2:
I called out Rawr, what, three times?  I would much rather we have flipped him than Dormio ugh.   (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163231.html#msg1163231)
I vote Rawr in my very first post, after agreeing with Bard.  I didn't have the benefit of a tracker guilty, and I also wasn't in the neighbours QT to go "hmm yes sorry my scum buddy Rawr, I have to throw you under a bus."  So there's no reason for Rawr to wilt in the face of my questioning. 

I note on the re-read 2 Shadoweh popped up and mentioned something about claims, but when asked to explain, she declined to do so :/

Sky, "Regarding claims, if it can be explained how we can do it to benefit town, I'm all for it.'

More pressure on Rawr (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163375.html#msg1163375):
Quote
Given his day 1 performance, I will not assume he is busy, and in fact assume that he is avoiding the game because he is lurking scum hoping we will mislynch another towny. 

I then interrogate (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163485.html#msg1163485) Rawr for his fairly bizarre vote on me.  When he ignores it, I put some more reasons (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163500.html#msg1163500) why Rawr was scum. 

We then had a tracker claim and surprise surprise, Rawr flipped scum. 

But hey, here's Shadoweh's response (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163537.html#msg1163537)to my questioning in Rawr, just before the tracker claim:

Are you sure you aren't just voting him because he's making what you see as a bad case on you, because that's how your response comes off to me. >_>
I guess it doesn't matter much. Reading over it your case is pretty good, I don't think you've ever had a high opinion of Dan so I can't see how his nightkill would implicate you either. (Rawr is more likely to get killed for the weirdness  :] )

I mean, the alternative is that Mitsuki and Bardiche are having a scum pajama party and just high-fiving each other in the scuum QT endlessly because i really can't see scum feeling like they have to do much when this is a five-page game. Its pretty worrying that everyone I would consider high priority lived (Cf7 is not exacctly at the top of the kill list either sorry bro). But Bard just feels interested in solving things and i like the way zakky-chan sounds. Also since no one seems interested in claiming im just going to drop it, it's not that important right now anyways. (probably doesn't matter since we didn't figure it out ahead of time.)

I'm kind of confused I had a chance to replace in in the first place, having looked at the ruleset. >_>

Like what is this post lol. 

***

Day 3 was the Raikaria-engineered mislynch of Raikaria, so I don't think we can get much out of it.  That said:

Reasons for thinking Zak was scum. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164051.html#msg1164051)

A crumb (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164074.html#msg1164074) I missed plus when I decided we should lynch Raikaria. 

Main post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164176.html#msg1164176) where I outline reasons to lynch Raikaria because I think he is scum, not because it's convenient. 

***

Day 4. 

Well that's what I've got.  I invite Shadoweh to go through the game and show us how towny she is. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Mitsuki on February 14, 2015, 12:35:34 AM
SkyPal finding it hard to believe that I tracked Rawr out of my own will makes me sad.

"Oh right, lack of nightkill.  I presume that means we either had a doc block or a town block on a scum hit or scum idled."

There was one option missing from that lack of nightkill; and that was that a town roleblocker had blocked a mafia hit.  I didn't raise that option because I knew there was a doc in the game, and since I had (mistakenly) POE'd Zak as scum Roleclop, there could be no roleblock and a doc was the only role option.  I knew there was a doc because I'd tried to pick it and didn't get it.

ugh, I've been struggling with this but I don't really understand what you mean. By "town block on scum" didn't you mean that a town roleblocker could have blocked a mafia hit?

I think I've already made up my mind on who is scum, but I want to know what Zakeri thinks before talking about it to see if we reach the same conclusion, also I shouldn't really be posting right now. And anyways if it's a battle of seeing who gets tired on NLing/nokilling first I'm going to win this one
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Shadoweh on February 14, 2015, 01:49:30 AM
Sky Pal trying to engineer this into a confirmed tracker who tracked scum vs a confirmed doc who blocked a nightkill makes me giggle madly.  I almost feel bad for you, expect for the part where I'm dancing on your grave.

"Mitsuki was clearing me earlier, clearly I did a townie thing so trust me bby". That post of mine that Sky pointed out is me thinking his case on Rawr was reactionary. Which I thought at the time didn't matter, but now I'm pretty sure it's because he wasn't expecting his buddy to come out doing nothing but swinging at him.

Also re: massclaiming, I was suggesting it so that the roles in the setup were confirmed and everyone's actions could be monitored. Things like Dan dying without claiming means we don't know what role he picked/what roles were ruled out. It turned out not to matter and with the Bard/Mitsuki hookup, I'm not surprised they didn't consider it.

Also also, forgive me if I don't have a priority on proving to you that I'm town, I really don't see you changing your mind about what a good lynch you are.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 14, 2015, 05:47:46 AM
Mitsuki
Quote
SkyPal finding it hard to believe that I tracked Rawr out of my own will makes me sad.

It's not that I don't beleive.  It's that I wanted to be sure.  I don't know how neighbourhood inviting works, from the role description I assumed Bard would invite and then you'd join *that night phase*.  So if there was a way I could find out for sure, I wanted to exploit that.  Then I am in a position to decide if you bussed a scum buddy or not. 

Quote
By "town block on scum" didn't you mean that a town roleblocker could have blocked a mafia hit?

I'm sorry, I genuinely screwed up here. 

I didn't realise I had included roleblock.  When I was going through my posts for crumbs based on game state awareness, I was also comparing my game state notes on my quicktopic, where I wrote "roleblocker and rolecop MIA".  I was so sure I had crumbed it that I included it in my post but I was mistaken.  I wrote it myself and somehow parsed it incorrectly on the re-read.  It's an error. 

Shadoweh
Quote
trying to engineer this into a confirmed tracker who tracked scum vs a confirmed doc who blocked a nightkill

Couple of things. 

1 - You're not confirmed.  Roles are not alignment indicative.  We had Dormio flip JOAT. 
2 - What's this about a 'confirmed block'?  We don't know anything about that.  By your story, I idled the hit so I could do a role check on either your or Mitsuki.  It doesn't add up. 

Quote
That post of mine that Sky pointed out is me thinking his case on Rawr was reactionary.
How could it be reactionary if I was voting Rawr first?  You know it's not, because:
Shadoweh:
Post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164039.html#msg1164039) "Rawr was insistant on pushing a weird case on Sky Paladin."

Quote
Things like Dan dying

I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever kill Dan, unless I knew he was roled, because he is too valuable as a mislynch in LYLO.  Which you know (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163537.html#msg1163537), because:
Quote
I don't think you've ever had a high opinion of Dan so I can't see how his nightkill would implicate you either.

So no, you don't get to suspect me as scum.  You know it's not me. 

Quote
Also also, forgive me if I don't have a priority on proving to you that I'm town, I really don't see you changing your mind about what a good lynch you are.

Actually, I want you to prove that you are town so I can make an easier choice between you and Mitsuki.  I presume you want to prove you are town because
Mitsuki
Quote
Also in case I died you can assume the doc to be scum lol
Is at least considering that you might not be what you say you are. 

And also, because at the moment:

Why Mitsuki is town:
Spent most of day 1 engaging other players (including myself and Bard).  Was ultimately seen as town by both Bard and I, enough so that Bard invited her to his topic. 
Did not push for a mislynch of Raikaria when she was at L-1.  Instead, organised a lynch of Dormio from scratch, which was quite dangerous. 
CF7 (your slot, which is scummy) and Rawr both voting for Mitsuki day 1 for very sloppy reasons. 
Mitsuki claimed town tracker with a confirmed guilty on Rawr.  Presented validated results that benefit town. 
Generally very active and engaging many/all players.  Town rating:  Shiny gold star. 

Why Shadoweh is scum:
Slot spent most of day 1 sitting on OMGUS vote with Dormio. 
Claimed scum (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162166.html#msg1162166) with Dormio early in the game.  Not a town strategy! 
Votes Mitsuki because she's voting him (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1162385.html#msg1162385) for claiming scum. 
Voteparked; vanished for the rest of the phase. 
Shadoweh;
Information instead of analysis (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163325.html#msg1163325), commentary on the game.  Mentions mass claiming, when asked, abandons it.  But hey we've done that already so. 
Reaction to Rawr's case:  Chainsaw defend. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163537.html#msg1163537)  And it is a chainsaw defend, because we have a flip of Rawr~!  Stalls for time, "I'm kind of confused I had a chance to replace in in the first place, having looked at the ruleset" blah blah blah whatever.  This post is full of crap. 
Shadoweh's next post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163791.html#msg1163791), after Rawr has claimed scum, is idle banter, doesn't really comment on Rawr, or vote. 

Shadoweh has literally one post in day 3 where she was NOT littering the thread with useless non content posts, and this (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164039.html#msg1164039) is it.  Here she implicates Raikaria and Zak as her scum picks. 
Town rating:  Safety hazard.

***

So on the balance of things, I'd happily lynch Shadoweh off the face of the earth right now.  Consider me psuedo-voting her. 

I'll also wait another night phase if Zak/Mitsuki want to no-lynch.  But I think all that will happen is another idle. 

Shadoweh
Quote
Re: Mod questions, why would you eliminate the only chance for a no-lynch to be productive, that's why I didn't say why I thought it would be unproductive.

Because scum could just ask in their quick topic and already know the answer, having already idled their hit once.  I'm town, so I have to ask in public.  I'd rather not entertain a strategy unless it can be confirmed useful for town. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 14, 2015, 06:04:59 AM
Actually I'm going to knock this one out of the park. 

Quote
By your story, I idled the hit so I could do a role check on either your or Mitsuki. 

If Shadoweh did magically block a hit night 3 (which is what she is now claiming), and she was protecting Mitsuki, then scum now know that Mitsuki is a tracker and that Shadoweh is a doc (because Zak claimed doc pick and miss, and by POE that's the result). 

Q) Why did scum hit and kill Bard when they knew Shadoweh was the doc? 
A) They wouldn't. 

And that's how you know I'm town. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Shadoweh on February 14, 2015, 06:13:22 AM
1 - You're not confirmed.  Roles are not alignment indicative.  We had Dormio flip JOAT. 
2 - What's this about a 'confirmed block'?  We don't know anything about that.  By your story, I idled the hit so I could do a role check on either your or Mitsuki.  It doesn't add up. 
Stop putting words in my mouth. I have never claimed you did a role cop instead of performing the nightkill. I've made it clear thrice that since the doctor can't self-protect, Failing to kill Mitsuki means you knew Mitsuki wasn't the doctor. Also, you cheeky little schmuck:
SETUP INFO:
There are 7 townies and 2 mafia members. By default, everyone is a vanilla. Unless stated otherwise, the mafia members can perform the factional kill and use their roles in the same night.
Oh, oops! Guess you were never actually restricted after all were you?

Quote
How could it be reactionary if I was voting Rawr first?  You know it's not, because:
Shadoweh:
Post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164039.html#msg1164039) "Rawr was insistant on pushing a weird case on Sky Paladin."
I think if Rawr hadn't become the center of attention the entire day you would have backed off him. Instead you got stuck in this awkward slapfight that made him look terrible and you couldn't pull out. I don't think there was an alternate to Rawr that day. Like, at all. Turns out cases predicated on knowing someone is scum make you look bad in advance.

Quote
I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever kill Dan, unless I knew he was roled, because he is too valuable as a mislynch in LYLO.  Which you know (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1163537.html#msg1163537), because:
So no, you don't get to suspect me as scum.  You know it's not me.
Never Would I Ever As Scum Do That Thing I Did This Game. The thing is I can't think of anyone who would normally kill Dan, it's not what I would do either. You however, aren't the only member of your scumteam, and Rawr doing random things isn't out of the question. So no, you don't get to pretend you couldn't have done it when you weren't the only one there.

Quote
Actually, I want you to prove that you are town so I can make an easier choice between you and Mitsuki.  I presume you want to prove you are town because
Mitsuki Is at least considering that you might not be what you say you are. 
I'm much more interested in proving you're scum. Maybe if you were town you wouldn't be so worried about how you look to people.

Quote
Because scum could just ask in their quick topic and already know the answer, having already idled their hit once.  I'm town, so I have to ask in public.  I'd rather not entertain a strategy unless it can be confirmed useful for town.
Well technically town didn't have to either.. Bard already said in our QT that scum can idle. I trust him not to have lied for some reason.

Cut:

Question. Do you think you could have gotten Bard lynched today over me? Because that's what you're suggesting and I really doubt you thought that was a possibility. I didn't even consider myself dying a possibility. (Also because of my inability to be nightkilled after LYNCHING SCUM BUT SOMEHOW GET LYNCHED ANYWAYS *wheeze*.)
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 14, 2015, 06:33:17 AM
What you have established, unambiguously, is that the scum team knew that in the previous night phase you, Shadoweh, are the doc. 

The only reason I could see for your survival is that you are in fact scum. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Shadoweh on February 14, 2015, 06:55:06 AM
Luckily no one was asking for what you thought about it. Although you're the one who said role =/= alignment.
Shouting at you is fun but I wish there were actual townies here to talk to.  :( Zakeri pls actually show up again. :<
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 14, 2015, 07:09:10 AM
You effectively said, and just now agreed, that scum knew you were the doctor and that they didn't kill you.  Instead they chose to kill Bard. 

You should at the very least consider the implications of this. 

Why would scum knowingly avoid the doctor and hit Just? 

Quote
I didn't even consider myself dying a possibility.

Why were you so confident that you wouldn't be night killed? 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 14, 2015, 07:15:30 AM
While we're waiting, could you please elaborate on this:

Quote
I'm much more interested in proving you're scum.

As I have not seen a case from you yet, just a bit of attempted character assassination and stuffing around. 

I'm quite happy for Zakeri and Mitsuki to remain silent, watch, and ask questions.  They have nothing to prove.  You do. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Shadoweh on February 14, 2015, 07:21:10 AM
Because I never die. :V You were even in the game I was referencing.
Why would the scum want one of their only mislynches dead? The alternative is what, Mitsuki thought she needed to do anything but claim a guilty and point today? I don't think so.

They can't ask questions if they aren't talking. At this rate they're not going to be around again for me until tomorrow.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 14, 2015, 07:52:07 AM
Well, if it was me, I would have hit Shadoweh and then angled for a lynch of Bard or Zak (depending on who Mitsuki tracked). 

The angle on Bard would go something like, he was forced to push Rawr because Mitsuki claimed a guilty in the QT.  He couldn't exactly back out of it.  Mitsuki and I both found Bard scummy early day 1.  Conversely, I at least thought you were the tracker because Bard was applying zero pressure to you and that implied you were being chatty in the QT.  I am interested to see who Zak thought was the doc tbh.  The fact that I obviously had no clue who the real tracker was kind of shows I wasn't behind the night 3 hit/idle. 

As I recall, you died in that game.  But enough about you!  Let's hear this case on me. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Mitsuki on February 14, 2015, 09:52:34 AM
Ugh, I have no time and I'll be away for more than 24 hours but I feel bad for letting this slapfight go on.

I think Shadoweh is scum here, basically because I can see SkyPal's confidence, and Shadoweh feels scared. While I'm not that confident on Shadoweh, the more I think about it the more I can't see SkyPal as scum. Being skeptical of the tracker and trying to get 2 townies in a 1vs1? No way scum would do that.
The thing on Shadoweh is that right now she feels slightly as scum and then SkyPal brought a good point about her trying to shoot down SkyPal's Rawr case.

##vote: Shadoweh

I'm sorry if this is the wrong choice. If Zakeri wants to think over it and sees things differently, we can always NL and talk a bit more about it. But otherwise I'd rather not let such a fight continue, I don't think it's fun for SkyPal and specially not for Shadoweh.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 14, 2015, 10:38:50 AM
It's part of the ruleset that town will get tired of NL long before Scum even have the chance to get tired of NKing.

Mitsuki's cases and actions are solidly consistent, especially on day 2 with having a guilty on Rawr and letting it slide to pursue me as the other scum. also bard's "Vote Shadoweh, no j/k vote rawr" Fits in perfectly with the narrative of Mitsuki getting a Guilty.

My Gut says to lynch Shadoweh, but all logic and occam's razor points towards Sky being the final scum.

I don't think Shadoweh's 252 post after Rawr outs himself is indicative of a sense of loss for the game. Sky was expressing some frustration but did a good job of covering up.
The question of what happened night two can only have two answers at this point: Sky shot Mitsuki (Very likely, Mitsuki and Shadow were both likely to have a role, and he knew one of them had to be doctor or tracker.) or Shadoweh forewent the NK in order to support her being Town Doctor (I'm thinking not likely, because I think a scumminded person in Shadoweh's position would be putting more weight on proving that made her town.)
Sky paladin would not have intentionally forego the NK on night two since he can't benefit from it at all (Since it's impossible for him to be the doctor.)
Sky's reaction to my claim as well as the way he suggested things goes along with the fact that he also picked Doctor. I also now understand what he was doing when he made the claim that I could only be Rolecop (which had me confused at the time because pfft I would never actively choose rolecop under any circumstances even as scum. Even roleblocker would have been cool).

though serious question
Quote from: Sky Paladin
I think there is strategic value in holding on to my role at this stage.  If your town network realllllly wants to know, let me know your posting on behalf of the neighbourhood watch. 
Considering this was after I claimed not-doc and Doc being divided among Shadoweh and Mitsuki becoming public knowledge when I claimed, what exactly was the strategic value of holding onto your role? Your gambit to get me to claim rolecop didn't work either, and the only people other than me were the doctor, the tracker, the neighborizer, and the guy we were in the process of lynching.

I had a bunch of thoughts regarding sky being a blocker, but I realize that's impossible because if he was I wouldn't be confirmed town today.
Basically I've been slowly convincing myself that it makes more sense for the last scum to be Sky Paladin.

...of course ultimately the problem with this is that his entire play this game is indicative of him picking the Doctor role, and I absolutely doubt that being sixth on the totem pole as scum he would have attempted to go for that role. Scum picking Doctor only happens in the upper slots, because they would want o swipe that role away from town and use it as a safeclaim. Town in sixth place getting doc makes sense because it really is an important role and it would be embarrassing if town let the role slip through without being in the game just because people assumed somebody else would get it. Heck even I banked on CF7 and Mitsuki letting it slip.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 14, 2015, 10:39:46 AM
I spent three hours slowly convincing myself it's Sky, got cut by Mitsuki and then spent three minutes convincing myself it's shadoweh.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Shadoweh on February 14, 2015, 10:57:23 AM
... YOU CAN'T BE FUCKING SERIOUS.

I do not get scared. What I am is confident that at least -I- know who the last scum is and you can't seriously want to throw this game away because he's 'CONFIDENT'. This is pretty much the only way you could throw a game in which scum got shafted at every step. There is no reason scum wouldn't want the two technically non-confirmed town on each other's throats. I mean, it's clearly working on you.

Zak: At least you get what I've been saying about the roles being known this entire time. Why would I think the game is lost on Day 2 anyways, I'm not that fricking bad a player. Besides, the question that isn't being asked here is if I thought Mitsuki was the tracker, instead of protecting her why wouldn't I just SHOOT HER BECAUSE I'M THE DOCTOR? There is no reason for me to 'pretend' to do anything but protect the wrong people. The only reason that didn't happen is because the scum had to worry about their kill being stopped every step of the way.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Shadoweh on February 14, 2015, 11:14:05 AM
Mitsuki please tell me you didn't just leave for a day. >_> GET BACK HERE AND FIX THIS BEFORE WE LOSE.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 14, 2015, 12:01:06 PM
True, in addition to Shadoweh having to forego the NK in order to confirm clear Mitsuki just for the chance of brownie points, She also had the option to just Kill Mitsuki and claim she had decided to switch off to protect me or Bardiche or somebody else for "outguessing reasons." Remember, Shadoweh has to be the doctor whether or not She's scum so there's no reason why Mitsuki would be alive in this situation.

I will commend sky for trying to get scumslips out of people he knows are town though. Not just with me but also claiming he expected Shadoweh would counter claim Mitsuki. It's real easy to buy into the story Sky is giving, especially since I do believe he choose to be a Doctor.

dammit, I was trying to go back to sleep since I only got five hours and then I had to get back up to explain why Sky has to be town but now that I've read Shadoweh's post I lost it.

The short is, the night actions don't line up completely with Shadoweh, but sky did put effort into scumhunting me and Shadoweh in different ways, and he's only been caught lying about it once (When he mentioned town roleblocker and forgot he had mentioned it.) despite giving detailed accounts of his actions and thought processes as the days progressed. it really is just a war between Gut vs shadoweh and Logic vs. Sky.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 14, 2015, 01:09:42 PM
Here and reading.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 14, 2015, 01:14:18 PM
Well I'll start by not immediately hammering Shadoweh.  So I hope that at least buys Zak's interest enough to consider the choice between Mitsuki/Shadoweh. 

I'm still waiting to see Shadoweh's case on me, but since we can proooooobably assume I'm town because of the no hammer, I'm more interested in seeing if Shadoweh can sell scum!Mitsuki. 

I want to go revisit something Shadoweh said and see if I am happy enough to hammer that though. BRB.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 14, 2015, 01:36:31 PM
Zak
Quote
Considering this was after I claimed not-doc and Doc being divided among Shadoweh and Mitsuki becoming public knowledge when I claimed, what exactly was the strategic value of holding onto your role?

I knew that roleblocker and rolecop were not in play.  Scum didn't know this.  By pretending to hold on to a role that could have been a roleblock, it made scums life more difficult in choosing a night kill - they probably guessed I would block you, though (which is what I would have done).  When the new day roled around and I wasn't dead, I actually thought that doc!Mitsuki was scum, and nearly wrote that.  But then Mitsuki claimed tracker!  That went against what I expected, so I realised I had to hold on to my role until Shadoweh confirmed the claim. 

Because as long as there was a chance I was the rolecop, xxxxx!doc could not counter claim xxxxx!tracker without the risk of rolecop!Sky knowing the truth.  The real nightmare scenario of Just dying is that there is no way for us to know which of Mitsuki and Shadoweh is the tracker with the confirm guilty, unless they both agreed to tell us the truth about it.  I didn't realise this until after Mitsuki had made the 'wrong' claim. 

Can you imagine what today would look like if Shadoweh had said "No, I am the tracker, and I tracked Zakeri, who went nowhere.  Mitsuki is lying!"  They'd countervote right off the bat, and you and I would be forced to choose between them, with the first one to blink and vote deciding the game.  Shadoweh could easily lie and say she's done plenty of scumhunting in the QT and we have no way of knowing the truth. 

That is what I assume Shadoweh was inferring (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164531.html#msg1164531) when she posted, "Tch, I told you it would have been cooler".  I'm guessing Shadoweh proposed something like "Let's say that you're the doc and I'm the tracker" in the QT. 

Anyway Im very tired after valentines day so I am not going to vote right now, sorry.  I need to think and review. 

The main basis that Shadoweh seemed to think I was scum was because of some insider knowledge that she believed I had, as stated here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164531.html#msg1164531), here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164534.html#msg1164534), here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164569.html#msg1164569), and here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164598.html#msg1164598). 

However we established beyond all manner of reason that not only did I not know who the doc was, but scum definitely knew, and they inexplicably refused to hit Shadoweh.  Also, since we know I'm town now because I didn't hammer, Shadoweh essentially has nil content this phase. 

So on the balance of things - looking at Mitsuki's actions this game versus Shadoweh's/CF7's actions, and the fact that Shadoweh in LYLO has no case to stand on.  Zakeri confirmed town. 

Out of Mitsuki and Shadoweh, Mitsuki played a better, more town-oriented game, and I learned from the game where I hammered Shadoweh in LYLO that a player who slam dunks scum is probably not scum. 

So I WILL sleep on it.  And give Zak/Shadoweh the opportunity to explore if there is any possibility Mitsuki is scum. 

But I don't think you'll find it. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 14, 2015, 03:33:43 PM
It takes three votes to Hammer. We're not in quicklynch reach yet.
That said, That reasoning supports the flow of Sky not being able to say half the things he has said as scum. He was committed to the a rolecop claim after Bard had suggested making use of faking out scum, and that claim would have forced Scum!Shadoweh to tell the truth even if she thought to counterclaim Mitsuki.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Shadoweh on February 14, 2015, 11:51:44 PM
Can you imagine what today would look like if Shadoweh had said "No, I am the tracker, and I tracked Zakeri, who went nowhere.  Mitsuki is lying!"  They'd countervote right off the bat, and you and I would be forced to choose between them, with the first one to blink and vote deciding the game.  Shadoweh could easily lie and say she's done plenty of scumhunting in the QT and we have no way of knowing the truth. 

That is what I assume Shadoweh was inferring (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17947.msg1164531.html#msg1164531) when she posted, "Tch, I told you it would have been cooler".  I'm guessing Shadoweh proposed something like "Let's say that you're the doc and I'm the tracker" in the QT. 
No, that's not what I proposed at all. I suggested I should be protecting Bard instead of Mitsuki last night because scum don't like to fail to kill the same person twice. Actually I'd say I was fairly active in the QT, just bringing it up would be annoying for half the voting public that matters. The main reason I honestly believe you're scum is you're the only plausable target left. I don't actually like fakeclaiming for no reason? Like, what purpose would that have actually served?

Quote
Out of Mitsuki and Shadoweh, Mitsuki played a better, more town-oriented game, and I learned from the game where I hammered Shadoweh in LYLO that a player who slam dunks scum is probably not scum. 
Well at least you actually remember it happened now..  ::) I'm also valentine's glomped and slightly feverish, but i'l lbe back later
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 15, 2015, 01:21:44 AM
Oh, we have four.  I'm used to it being one-vote-wrong = death.  OK then. 

Shadoweh, you are stalling.  You have not laid out a case and are clearing Mitsuki based on rolespec. 

Everything you're clearing Mitsuki for is the same thing you should also be clearing me for:  I was voting Rawr before the track result came out.  If I could have bussed Rawr, there is no reason Mitsuki could not also have bussed Rawr.  We both lynched Dormio.  We both lynched Raikaria.  We were both active and engaging other players. 

There is no specific reason why you can say "Well Mitsuki is definitely town, so Sky is scum by POE" but that's the only case you're pushing forward, and that case is blown up because YOU established that scum knew who the doc was, and I clearly didn't. 

So ultimately it seems like you're just clinging to "Mitsuki is town because it is easier to mislynch Sky."  And similiarly your claim to being confirmed and blocking a hit is begging the question - you are the doc, so you MUST be town, because scum would NEVER pick the doc, right?  And scum would NEVER hit the doc, right? 

I think if you were seriously scum hunting you would have at least looked at the points Mitsuki raised when she voted you.  The actual, concrete, negotiable things, things that we could discuss as a group. 

Mitsuki gave a whole bunch of emotional reasons for voting. 
Quote
I think Shadoweh is scum here, basically because I can see SkyPal's confidence, and Shadoweh feels scared. While I'm not that confident on Shadoweh, the more I think about it the more I can't see SkyPal as scum. Being skeptical of the tracker and trying to get 2 townies in a 1vs1? No way scum would do that.
The thing on Shadoweh is that right now she feels slightly as scum and then SkyPal brought a good point about her trying to shoot down SkyPal's Rawr case.
Quote
I'm sorry if this is the wrong choice. If Zakeri wants to think over it and sees things differently, we can always NL and talk a bit more about it. But otherwise I'd rather not let such a fight continue, I don't think it's fun for SkyPal and specially not for Shadoweh.

'Confidence vs being scared'.  'Shadoweh feels scum'.  'not let such a fight continue, I don't think it's fun for SkyPal and specially not for Shadoweh.' 

The only thing Mitsuki brought up that was fair is that I flipped your argument about my vote on Rawr.  Everything else, to me, appears to be emotion or feeling that is not really part of an argument. 

But out of the many things you could have used to argue against her vote, you chose:
Quote
I do not get scared. What I am is confident that at least -I- know who the last scum is and you can't seriously want to throw this game away because he's 'CONFIDENT'.

You don't have a case.  When asked multiple times to present your case, you went afk or said 'nobody is asking you'.  You were caught changing your story, twice.  You refuse to consider the valid alternative.  You are using information instead of analysis.  You are stalling. 

You are scum. 

##vote Shadoweh
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 15, 2015, 01:35:56 AM
Yeah, if I can trust in anything, it's going to be my ability to tell when truth is happening, even if I don't believe in it.
##Vote: Shadoweh
Resolution time.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Day 4
Post by: SB on February 15, 2015, 02:20:58 AM
"Man if this was a town doctor we probably would've lynched it day 1"

Shadoweh, Mafia Doctor, was lynched Day 4!

Sky Paladin, Vanilla Townie, Zakeri, Vanilla Townie, and Mitsuki, Town Tracker, survive and win with the dead townies!

Congratulations to the town. I'll probably have more to say on this when it isn't 2am.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Shadoweh on February 15, 2015, 02:23:57 AM
jerks
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: SB on February 15, 2015, 02:25:44 AM
Mafia: http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/bUvjHshQqeqMT
Neighbourhood: http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/WynJy4rwU93h
Graveyard: http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/VAgGgSYmEutP
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Dr Rawr on February 15, 2015, 02:29:35 AM
Geegee
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on February 15, 2015, 02:49:28 AM
jii jii
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 15, 2015, 02:52:26 AM
jerks
I'd apologize but my mama taught me not to lie.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 15, 2015, 03:11:20 AM
Sky topic (http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/dLdvuRMQuXR)

I am happy that my faith in good play was rewarded, and finally undone my horrible MOTK LYLO streak. 

Thanks to everybody for playing, and SB for hosting the game. 

Grats on your gut Mitsuki, it was right on target for 8/9 players. 

I think Bard/Mitsuki won the game for town.  They basically solved the first 3/4 of the game and kept town moving forward when it went into stagnation. 

We are a bit rusty; I made a lot of mistakes.  I managed to wall less than usual, still more work to do. 

I regret lynching Dormio, but consider his sacrifice a necessary step on the path to victory.  Kind of like a ritual sacrifice to pay for our mafia sins.  I could day 1 lynch Dormio more often. 

I don't understand Rawr's stonewall on day 2, but it became irrelevant after the tracker claim. 

Shadoweh, no hard feelings (from your QT).  I understand you did what you had to do. 

Happy Valentines day everyone :)
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Shadoweh on February 15, 2015, 04:04:50 AM
"sempai notice me ;____; " omg xD What's wrong with letting the scum come chat, I was really lonely and happy to have new scumbuddies!
Also I felt like an awful awful person for deceiving two of my favorite players. Why can't I just roll town like everyone else QQ

Irony: Rawr originally wanted to pick Neighbourizor and was convinced to pick Tracker, which he was nevah getting. If he had then the game would have been ever so slightly different! I was lying about not wanting to join mafia again, obviously. Not about CF7 idling, he def did that. I had a lot more fun then I expected to considering I replaced in, saw who I was up against, saw my buddy and just died inside. I'm glad you could all at least enjoy lynching me! ^_^/
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Conqueror on February 15, 2015, 05:21:18 AM
Fun game to read, too bad mafia is dead rip.
I think the setup is probably more townsided when downsized. Would have been interesting to see with more players.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: ActionDan on February 15, 2015, 08:06:02 AM
town won?

Motktown 2015
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: SB on February 15, 2015, 10:51:30 AM
Fun game to read, too bad mafia is dead rip.
I think the setup is probably more townsided when downsized. Would have been interesting to see with more players.

Maybe? I think it was more down to CF7's choice to pick doc heavily restricting the scum nightkills. Although town could've easily picked up Roleblocker or something I guess and that would've put scum in a really awkward position. I'm more disappointed that I had to cut most of the more interesting roles because they didn't fit in 9p very well.

I'm actually really surprised that NOBODY went for Roleblocker or even seemed to consider it when it's such a strong role in 9p.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Mitsuki on February 15, 2015, 10:56:02 AM
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
<3<3

no time to comment on much stuff but thanks everyone for playing, specially Bardiche and Shadoweh for making the neighbourhood fun and SkyPal for being so townie. As town I really love reading people who feel townie, and I feel like you made a huge improvement this game.

Oh and if you ask me the Raikaria lynch was the bonus content of this game.
Someone should make a guide on how to read him properly.


Also fun how every day we lynched who I wanted to lynch, D3 is kind of an exception since I wanted to no lynch but whatever. Turning the lynch on Dormio was also pretty fun, even if that was a mislynch.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Bardiche on February 15, 2015, 02:40:09 PM
Lynching Raikaria was a necessary component of punishing Town for playing like Scum. If you're Town, please try to play like you're Town.

Sky Paladin won the game. For a change. I am impressed, amazed and amused, because seeing Shadoweh get lynched could only be more satisfying if mine was the hammer.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Shadoweh on February 15, 2015, 04:56:49 PM
Maybe? I think it was more down to CF7's choice to pick doc heavily restricting the scum nightkills. Although town could've easily picked up Roleblocker or something I guess and that would've put scum in a really awkward position. I'm more disappointed that I had to cut most of the more interesting roles because they didn't fit in 9p very well.

I'm actually really surprised that NOBODY went for Roleblocker or even seemed to consider it when it's such a strong role in 9p.
As Town I would have definitely picked up Roleblocker. It was obvious Sky didn't have it after the no-kill, since if he'd blocked someone I'm pretty sure it would have come up. Doctor was a goood choice in theory, and maybe I should have played it less tricky and just killed Mitsuki. Such is life.

not that I actually read anything, but I heard Raikaria thought the scum kill was a role you had to pick? He was doing a lot of the Too Derp To Be Scum No Way that Sky P was doing (and I almost wish I'd thought of stealing Tracker on the last day because apparently that would have worked better for me >.> ) I would have said something but I was busy practicing my CPR Doc abilities on Bard if you know what I mean.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Edible on February 15, 2015, 05:03:06 PM
I would have said something but I was busy practicing my CPR Doc abilities on Bard if you know what I mean.

Punching him in the ribs repeatedly until they break?
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Mitsuki on February 15, 2015, 07:31:24 PM
By the way, I knew scum could nokill from the beggining and that the second NL was universal loss, I was just trying to put pressure on scum.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Bardiche on February 15, 2015, 08:32:59 PM
Blowing the once-per-game No Lynch certainly puts pressure on Scum!

Shadoweh stop Valentine's Day is over and I got nothing from you. NOTHING BUT A KNIFE IN MY BACK.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Mitsuki on February 15, 2015, 10:46:32 PM
the point was making scum forget that just one no-lynch is a thing, also the longer __Lo is the more pressure scum feel. I don't know about you but 6 days of __Lo would be a pain to bear for me
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Bardiche on February 15, 2015, 10:55:27 PM
At that point I just stop reading the game and poke in with lolcats. Seriously extending _Lo is horrible for either alignment.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Bardiche on February 15, 2015, 10:55:57 PM
THANK GOD WE HAD SKY PALADIN, the hero Town did not deserve but the one we got anyway. That'll teach us to call him crazy and laugh at his crackpot theories.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Mitsuki on February 15, 2015, 11:00:22 PM
Bardiche I get that you're saying that I contributed nothing to the game, you don't need to repeat it that much
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Sky_Paladin on February 15, 2015, 11:18:20 PM
I remember it a little differently, Bard :D 

If we'd listened to me from the beginning we would have lynched Mitsuki day 1, then Bardiche day 2. 

That's a game winning start!

Basically I think you and Mitsuki set it up, because everyone else was spinning wheels or crazy. 
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Mitsuki on February 15, 2015, 11:34:34 PM
Come on SkyPal, don't be modest. I think Bardiche and I did a pretty good job but you did as well. <3
I see this victory as the combined effort of everyone.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Bardiche on February 15, 2015, 11:36:38 PM
Bardiche I get that you're saying that I contributed nothing to the game, you don't need to repeat it that much

Except I didn't? I think the No Lynch plan was bad, because Lynch is Town's strongest (and in this game only) weapon that directly effects the removal of scum from the game. Having a bad plan doesn't mean you contributed nothing, because you clearly contributed to the victory. I think you're being too sensitive here, because I honestly don't see how my words can be construed as "you contributed absolutely nothing".

If you're salty I didn't trust you in the QT, ask Sky Paladin about my trust issues when it comes to Mafia games. I don't even trust people who were confirmed Town by the Cop that flipped Guaranteed 100% Sane Town Cop.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Mitsuki on February 15, 2015, 11:48:18 PM
I never really cared about you not trusting me, lol
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Vhaltz on February 15, 2015, 11:53:56 PM
No lynch at 5v1 with investigation alive is not a bad plan though? it was known that this particular setup had no extra killing roles so you're going to have one mislynch left regardless of what you do, you might as well use the extra player to get a result and see if the claimed doc dies.

Scum could have no killed in response to deny the investigation, but that would've raised alarms that scum was either informed or took everything well in consideration (which arguably might have cleared Raikaria considering how lost he was with everything this game). At best it provided extra information and at worst it would've left everything the same.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Bardiche on February 16, 2015, 01:44:02 AM
Quote
No lynch at 5v1 with investigation alive is not a bad plan though?

I believe it's a bad plan in nearly all cases because you rely on forfeiting your chief weapon to eliminate scum (lynching) and hoping that the night action will prove favourable (Scum won't kill a key figure).

In this particular case, I felt it was a bad idea because the odds of it being favourable are low (I assume all Scum are equally as smart and fallible as we are), while the negative side-effect of prolonging a Day phase rife with lethargy and general lack of care had high odds of coming to pass. Had we elected not to lynch and I had not been killed, I'd probably have spent most of the new Day phase twiddling my thumbs waiting for the rest to settle on a target.

I think the general apathy towards scum hunting from this game wouldn't improve by just making the game that much longer. Lynches give a great deal of information because it eliminates one person, lends information about the arguments people used, and makes the pool of suspects smaller. And you still get a Night action during that night.

We could probably argue this 'till we're blue in the face, but I am a staunch proponent of lynching every single Day phase until all Scum are eliminated, with the exception of very strange setups. I don't see myself changing that stance, so I'd rather agree to disagree here. I know how stubborn I am. If I offended by saying it was a bad plan, I'm sorry, it's nothing personal. I'm just opposed to forfeiting a lynch. Mafia is serious business to me.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Shadoweh on February 16, 2015, 01:55:50 AM
the point was making scum forget that just one no-lynch is a thing, also the longer __Lo is the more pressure scum feel. I don't know about you but 6 days of __Lo would be a pain to bear for me
The only problem with your plan is that it amused me so much  :yukkuri: Please spend 6 LYLO's with me Mitsy! We can start writing collaborative SkyXBard slash!
Considering the mmost pressing problem I had was being the doctor that wouldn't die, no-lynching would have just made me more suspicious I guess. I kind of think it was a mistake to ever kill again at all though so etc.

Dat QT party tho. (The thing I said about lynches being like really accurate cop checks are my feelings on the matter too tbh, if you were a cop it would have been a good idea, but as a tracker there was no reason for scum to act that night)

Shadoweh stop Valentine's Day is over and I got nothing from you. NOTHING BUT A KNIFE IN MY BACK.
But at least I got you something! <3
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Bardiche on February 16, 2015, 02:07:02 AM
Quote
We can start writing collaborative SkyXBard slash!

I will end you.

You may run. You may hide. You may pull gambits out the wazoo.

But I will find you.
Will.
Find.
You.


And I will end you.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: SB on February 16, 2015, 02:37:44 AM
Well, now Shadoweh has something to do when she ends up being confirmed scum again.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em on February 16, 2015, 05:21:45 AM
Seriously extending _Lo is horrible for either alignment.
yea,
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Shadoweh on February 16, 2015, 08:01:29 AM
itt Bard has bbeen sending me poetic death threats and/or solicitations all night  :matsurismirk:
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Mitsuki on February 16, 2015, 10:10:34 AM
The only problem with your plan is that it amused me so much  :yukkuri: Please spend 6 LYLO's with me Mitsy! We can start writing collaborative SkyXBard slash!

Yes please.
Next time we share a QT we need to fill it with as many mafia fanfictions as possible.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: WHMZakeri on February 16, 2015, 02:55:05 PM
Quote
I believe it's a bad plan in nearly all cases because you rely on forfeiting your chief weapon to eliminate scum (lynching) and hoping that the night action will prove favourable (Scum won't kill a key figure).
Except we weren't actually giving up a lynch. We still had the same number of lynches we had the whole game, which was 3 town lynches before loss.
One no-lynch isn't the same as losing a lynch, it's only the same as losing 0.5 lynches, and Shadoweh was kind enough to give us 0.5 lynches earlier.
The amount of favorable information to be gained in the NK was not optimal in solving the game for us, but it was optimal when compared to the risks involved.

...that said, we all decided to end the game anyways because as was said before, forcibly extending __lo is  :derp: for all parties involved.

Quote
because seeing Shadoweh get lynched could only be more satisfying if mine was the hammer.
I'll tell you, it felt really good~.
Title: Re: Draft Mafia - Game Over
Post by: Bardiche on February 17, 2015, 01:42:35 AM
itt Bard has bbeen sending me poetic death threats and/or solicitations all night  :matsurismirk:

I was drunk! (And when I say 'drunk', I mean tipsy and a bit too loose-lipped, please forget anything I confessed to you or told you.)