MotK Mafioso Mafia! Over

[Chaore]

Let me get this clear - Alice was at L-3 when you unvoted. Why did you unvote him just for the sake of keeping him safe?

I got the lynch count wrong, and I believe I've made it clear that I was not in favor of the lynch, and did not feel all too comfortable sitting on that vote for a lengthy period of time. Pretty much all there is to it.

Once again, you're taking this seriously for me moving away from him being lynched. Why is this bad? I'm not seeing you eye to eye here.

[UncertainJakutten]

You are entitled to an opinion, yes. Your opinion is that my case on Kilga is crap. It is mostly gut, which I do believe I mentioned indirectly, saying I got bad vibes. I'm trying to explain those bad vibes, or was trying to anyway, since just gut doesn't make for a very convincing case.

Now, you do have a point that the burden of proof is on me, but the fact that you have gotten into a protracted argument about me regarding another player's innocence...bothers me greatly. I'm sure you are familiar with the word chainsaw, correct? Trouble is, I can't accuse you of that unless Kilga flips scum. So, while I feel that you are engaging in a chainsaw defense, it can't really be used against you until one of you flips.

Cut by Kilga: That post should not be doing anything about my read of you except increasing my bad feelings. Regardless, there's a certain charm to it that does make me feel that perhaps I was hasty.

No, I'm not going to unvote you, but I'm still open to revising my opinion .

[Edible]

TOTALLY ORIGINAL AND EXTREMELY UNIQUE VOTE COUNT

Zakeri (2): huh what, Kilgamayan
UncertainKitten (1): Kilgamayan, NeoSerela, Roukanken
Kilgamayan (1): Zakeri, Carthrat, UncertainKitten
Alice Margatroid (3): Chaore, Alice Margatroid, Carthrat, Furienify
Chaore (2): Kitten4u, Roukanken
huh what (1): Zakeri
Carthrat (0): Kilgamayan
Furienify (0): UncertainKitten
Roukanken (1): Chaore

No vote: Kefit, Zentillion

ORIGINAL VOTECOUNT DO NOT STEAL

[WHMZakeri]

Whatever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'?

You've been playing Mafia along with the rest of us. Given a reason and half a chance, you could answer the question.
That's not how you solve a Burden of Proof Falacy, Rou. It gives UK the chance to explain what she's talking about using postlinks, and it just makes Her look more town and you look lazy.

Also, In ten words or more, explain why your vote is on Chaore at this point in time, Rou.

[FinnKaenbyou]

I'm going to firstly say that it's a bad habit of mine to feel an urge to respond to a) posts that ninja me, and b) cases which make my head hurt in terms of how ridiculous they are. Your case was both of those, and in your apparent 'explanation' you have offered nothing other than gut to explain yourself.

Meanwhile, back to my ACTUAL case...

Once again, you're taking this seriously for me moving away from him being lynched. Why is this bad? I'm not seeing you eye to eye here.

Three points.
- Firstly, the odds of a quick-wagon actually occuring this early in the day are pretty much zero. Why so afraid of seeing a wagon reach a decent speed?
- Secondly, what exactly disconcerted you enough about the wagon to convince you to move your vote? You didn't clarify beyond thinking the wagon was 'silly', missing the point that we have to start with a silly case to get to a serious case.
- Thirdly, you did nothing with your vote afterwards. I'll say it a million times if I have to, not using your vote in D1 is terrible Town play.

Ninja'd by Zak citing a fallacy I've never heard of. And besides, it doesn't really hold considering that she STILL hasn't offered proof. As for my Chaore vote, see above.

[UncertainJakutten]

The funny thing is Rou, most of your posts make me feel the same way, about the head hurting due to ridiculousness

And I've explained why the burden of proof has returned to you, Rou. You should read.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Now, you do have a point that the burden of proof is on me

And I've explained why the burden of proof has returned to you, Rou

You lost me.

[UncertainJakutten]

Read the rest of my statement Rou? And stop strawmanning? You've made enough hay to feed a horse for a year.

I'd like you to start actually addressing existing arguments rather than trying to bullshit your way through. Thanks .

[FinnKaenbyou]

1. I honest to god have no freaking clue what you're talking about. I don't see any explanation as to why I have to explain myself beyond 'You'redefendingKilgayoumustbescumperformingchainsawdefense!' when that isn't even what a Chainsaw Defense is.
What I'm doing - 'I think case on A is bad, I think B is scummy for suggesting it.'
Chainsaw Defense - 'Oh noes, my scumbuddy A is getting voted! I'd better come up with a reason to attack B!'

See these, UK? Not. The. Same.
It is a chainsaw defense if you find a fault with a player that has nothing to do with their case, isn't it?.

2. I had forgotten how good you were at deliberately trying to piss me off. Look at your last post - how much of that is deliberately there to try and make me angry?

[UncertainJakutten]

What I'm doing - 'I think case on A is bad, I think B is scummy for suggesting it.'
Chainsaw Defense - 'Oh noes, my scumbuddy A is getting voted! I'd better come up with a reason to attack B!'

Explain the difference, cause I'm pretty sure you are attacking me.

And none of it is to piss you off. Quite frankly I'm sick of you strawmanning the hell out of me. Happy?

[Kilgamayan]

And none of it is to piss you off.

Could've fooled me.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Explain the difference, cause I'm pretty sure you are attacking me.

I always thought that it was only a chainsaw if you came out of nowhere to attack someone on a totally different tangent.

As for attacking you, note that my vote is still on Chaore. My comment on you was that you were looking too hard into the fact that Kilga posted a freaking joke count. I don't even understand where I'm strawmanning you, seriously.

[Chaore]

Meanwhile, back to my ACTUAL case...Three points.
- Firstly, the odds of a quick-wagon actually occuring this early in the day are pretty much zero. Why so afraid of seeing a wagon reach a decent speed?
- Secondly, what exactly disconcerted you enough about the wagon to convince you to move your vote? You didn't clarify beyond thinking the wagon was 'silly', missing the point that we have to start with a silly case to get to a serious case.
- Thirdly, you did nothing with your vote afterwards. I'll say it a million times if I have to, not using your vote in D1 is terrible Town play.

1. Okay, so being afraid of a wagon going at a decent pace is scummy. Scum wants lynches, you know that, right Rou? Unless you'd like to claim Alice is Scum as well (For reasons other than a circular damn logicfest), Scum has no reason to panic over a wagon.

2. It was started off of his own god damn self vote and I am not fly with a lynch happening over that. If you are, I'm not. Sorry Rou.

3. Yeah I'm pretty terrible at this. I'm not about to lie about that.

I'm not seeing anything that makes me scum here, Rou. I'm just seeing you making criticisms on my play. In which you're pretty right on, I'm doing pretty terrible.

[UncertainJakutten]

As for attacking you, note that my vote is still on Chaore. My comment on you was that you were looking too hard into the fact that Kilga posted a freaking joke count. I don't even understand where I'm strawmanning you, seriously.

What I'm doing - 'I think case on A is bad, I think B is scummy for suggesting it.'

:V

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

##Unvote

That's enough of that. Self-votes are really kind of a dumb thing to pull in general, but given how early it is in the RVs, I thought I'd try one out of curiosity just to see if I could catch one of the new players on it, and I'm going to have to certainly go over Chaore's reaction carefully, as something unsettles me about it a lot. Furienify looks mildly bad for a generic wagon hop, but, meh, early RVS, so I'm not putting much stake in that.

@UK: you're voting Kilga over him being helpful? Seriously? Especially given how like 17 hours passed with no votecount so far? Christ, of all the reasons to vote someone...is this even a random vote? It feels like a random vote but the way you are pushing it makes me think you are 4srs, which makes me sad as this is seriously even more baffling than your reasoning for Scum!Alex back in Himelander, and that make me seriously wonder if I had stepped into the Twilight Mafia Zone for a couple hours or so. What the shit.

...And then the game degenerates into a UK/Roukan shouting match.

Can we please stop this, now, before it gets out of hand, spans several pages, and generally fills up the page with unnecessary chaff while pissing everyone in the game off in the process? Seriously. UK, you said you were going to work on the Unlimited Raeg Works. So kindly do so.

@Chaore: why would you be unhappy about a wagon starting off with my self-vote going to a lynch? I mean self-voting is an inherently anti-town action (though not always Scummy), not to mention the blindingly obvious case of I was nowhere close to a hammer at the time, for that matter. Holy shit.

At the same time, I'm not getting anything Scummy out of UK so far, just a pile of extreme idiocy, and Chaore seems to be playing more DerpTown than DerpScum so far. Currently going to ##Vote: Furienify, because quite honestly, while somewhat weak, your only post D1 so far is a wagon hop onto a wagon started by a self-vote. More content needed, etc.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

EBWOP: Missed Zak's cheerleading of multiple cases while having his vote on huh what. At the same time, I agree with his opinion of said cases (i.e. all of the wagons are on Idiot Town thusfar), but I still can't get over the fact that his posting style feels less like telling Town to disregard all of these wagons and more like awkward cheerleading. Perhaps it's the lack of a solid alternate case. Zakeri, why are you voting HW anyway?

[FinnKaenbyou]

Mainly it was 1 and 3 I found fault with, but you actually raise a decent enough point about 1. It's your lack of contribution to other discussion and subsequent OMGUS that I'm least comfortable with.

UK: Scummy, but as you may have noticed from my lack of vote not scummy enough on its own to be worth lynching. Worth looking at in later days, but there's plenty out there that is worth my vote ahead of that.

Like, say, Zak for his 'every single case presented today is stupid so I'm going to hold to my jokevote while idly commenting about discussion' attitude which does absolutely nothing. Chaore has explained himself to enough of an extent that I'm willing to make the shift.

##Unvote: Chaore
Vote: Zakeri

I don't know how, but playing here constantly manages to make me feel physically ill. I'm more than happy to leave this argument with UK in the dust to discuss other cases. Zak, feel like contributing anything other than calling people stupid?

[UncertainJakutten]

Can we please stop this, now, before it gets out of hand, spans several pages, and generally fills up the page with unnecessary chaff while pissing everyone in the game off in the process? Seriously. UK, you said you were going to work on the Unlimited Raeg Works. So kindly do so.

Actually, this was fairly civilized I think. It's just that we got a little long in tooth.

In fact, your post was probably far ruder than anything I exchanged with Rou. But that's ok, because you're Alice and allowed to say whatever the hell you want.

At any rate, I disagree that the case on Kilga boils down to him "being helpful", but apparently people are going to take it that way so whatever. Page me when Kilga is lynched and flips scum.

[Serela]

Oh man I sleep/go to school and it turns out that from the moment I left, suddenly things started going past jokevotes.

First off, ##Unvote:UncertainKitten. Second, ##Vote:Zakeri for the reasons Rou said. Third, reread the topic and think really really hard about this as I try to obtain a Mafia Player mindset. This requires more thinking then I originally thought; how fun this game is starting to look~

[UncertainJakutten]

HoS: Serela

That's twice. Quit trying to excuse yourself for lack of content or not being able to do anything before you've even played.

It looks bad.

[Kilgamayan]

You only get one vote. Pick one of your two options (and if it's UK, explain why).

Also please don't cite Roukan's reasoning for voting Zakeri, not only because bandwagoning is bad but because Roukan accuses Zakeri of holding on to a joke vote when Zakeri's vote is actually serious.

[Edible]

honk honk

Zakeri (4): huh what, Kilgamayan. Roukanken, Serela
Kilgamayan (1):  UncertainKitten
Alice Margatroid (2): Carthrat, Furienify
Chaore (2): Kitten4u, Roukanken
huh what (1): Zakeri
Furienify (1): Alice Margatroid
Roukanken (1): Chaore

No vote: Kefit, Zentillion

[FinnKaenbyou]

Roukan accuses Zakeri of holding on to a joke vote when Zakeri's vote is actually serious.

Let me clarify this: huh what asks Neo for clarification of a joke vote and is apparently 'backtracking' he says later he's being sarcastic.
The first question is why is that not blatantly obvious? The whole point of joke votes is that they're random and inexplainable.
The second question is why does Zak find that more valuable than ANYTHING ELSE THAT HAS CROPPED UP SO FAR? I honestly see no real case behind his vote.

[Furienify]

Good grief, that post was a joke. I didn't bold the vote for a reason! I'm not that new at this.

[Serela]

HoS: Serela

That's twice. Quit trying to excuse yourself for lack of content or not being able to do anything before you've even played.

It looks bad.

I was serious when I said I was going to reread the thread to try to understand things more. I just wanted to remove the vote on you because it was ridiculous at this point. I'm not trying to excuse myself at all; I'm simply a bit overwhelmed at this point, because I'm not used to the game at all. Heck, I've got no idea what FoS/HoS means in the first place, although I assume it's some kind of warning.

One was Unvote, the other was Vote; I wasn't voting twice. As for the criticism on my vote, it made sense at the moment, and after going through the thread, I've decided to stick to it for now.

Now, after reading through, the first thing that comes to mind is "Kilga+Zakeri are scum, Kilga is protecting him, etc", although I'm probably just being stupid right now. Scratch that, I' almost surely being stupid, because Zakeri voted Kilga right off the bat. Although I suppose since it's just a joke vote, it could be a trick, but I should pretty much nix the whole thought. Besides, Kilga decided to be a nice helpful person and post vote counts; although being nice doesn't really have anything to do with whether you're scum or not.

However, this doesn't throw out the idea that Zakeri is scum. His vote was a joke vote (was it not? It certainly seemed so.) and yet has been stuck to no matter how baseless it seems to be. In fact, beyond "everyone is an idiot", I haven't see Zakeri really give any reasons.

[Furienify]

At the same time, I'm not getting anything Scummy out of UK so far, just a pile of extreme idiocy, and Chaore seems to be playing more DerpTown than DerpScum so far. Currently going to ##Vote: Furienify, because quite honestly, while somewhat weak, your only post D1 so far is a wagon hop onto a wagon started by a self-vote. More content needed, etc.

My above post was responding mostly to this in particular (and Zakeri's post calling me an idiot as well, w/e): was a joke vote again (probably should have been more explicit on that), and what other sort of content shall I post? Past two pages have been full of UK raging against Kilga and failing miserably because Kilga's just taking it stride, making UK look like he's failing at generic ragetrolling. As everyone else has pointed out. I don't think that's a scum or townie vibe, from my brief experience reading some of the mafia threads here you guys tend to get very aggro, very quickly. That isn't my accustomed style, all of my past mafia games have been pretty laid-back, albeit very power-intensive as well, so we could afford to do that.

[UncertainJakutten]

FoS: Finger of Suspicion
HoS: Hand of Suspicion
Vote: Is a vo-

* UncertainKitten is shot

Anyway, I just realized that I'm totally going to be scarce tonight and for much of tomorrow. I'll be home around 6:30/7 PM EST tomorrow but yeah...I MIGHT get on to make a post or two.

And, for the last time, I'm not raging. If I were raging, there would be a lot more profanity and such.
Interesting that you'd class a case, regardless of it's weakness, as "raging". Trying to pre emptively discredit people?

And I'm not a he, but whatever, you clearly are new here.

[Kilgamayan]

One was Unvote, the other was Vote; I wasn't voting twice.

Derp, sorry, I need new eyes or something. :V

Out of curiosity, though, why did you throw out a Kilga/Zakeri scumpair on the basis of Zakeri's joke vote for me and not the fact that my serious vote is on him?

[Serela]

Out of curiosity, though, why did you throw out a Kilga/Zakeri scumpair on the basis of Zakeri's joke vote for me and not the fact that my serious vote is on him?

Because I, too, obviously need new eyes  :derp:

[Furienify]

FoS: Finger of Suspicion
HoS: Hand of Suspicion
Vote: Is a vo-

* UncertainKitten is shot

Anyway, I just realized that I'm totally going to be scarce tonight and for much of tomorrow. I'll be home around 6:30/7 PM EST tomorrow but yeah...I MIGHT get on to make a post or two.

And, for the last time, I'm not raging. If I were raging, there would be a lot more profanity and such.
Interesting that you'd class a case, regardless of it's weakness, as "raging". Trying to pre emptively discredit people?

And I'm not a he, but whatever, you clearly are new here.

Oh, I'd forgotten you were female, my bad. Internet strikes again.

In retrospect raging may be the wrong word, 'hostile' is definitely more appropriate.