Communication Breakdance (Game Over! Town win)

[Sodium]

I don't see how offhandedly roleclaiming VT in RVS helps town at all. Why would you do that? Also, I like how you're pretty much putting the safety of yourself over Power Roles, assuming you're telling the truth.

Edible plops down a joke vote when there's stuff to talk about. Whoo!

UK: Why did you purposely ignore the roleclaim?

##Unvote
##Vote: UK for ignoring the roleclaim, and then talking about it only after other people started talking about it. Seems opportunistic. Her stance on it is pretty wishy-washy too.

[UncertainJakutten]

UK: Why did you purposely ignore the roleclaim?

Because it didn't matter either way. At best it was good for future evidence provided Seniwac was scummy. What could I have done with it? It was best filed away.

##Vote: UK for ignoring the roleclaim, and then talking about it only after other people started talking about it. Seems opportunistic. Her stance on it is pretty wishy-washy too.

Wishy washy? No, it's quite solid. He has slight town points, despite the initial scumminess.

Further, something feels off about your post. I WANT to say opportunism but it doesn't fit...but it gives me bad vibes beyond the vote.

For now I'll follow up with: May I assume that you find Seniwac less scummy than me at this time, despite your apparent stance on his roleclaim? Further, may I ask the purpose in reiterating the questions already asked and answered?

[Pesco]

How does Sodium not feel opportunist?

Vote staying.

For now I'll follow up with: May I assume that you find Seniwac less scummy than me at this time, despite your apparent stance on his roleclaim? Further, may I ask the purpose in reiterating the questions already asked and answered?

Agreed.

[Nachtwanderlied]

I don't see how offhandedly roleclaiming VT in RVS helps town at all. Why would you do that? Also, I like how you're pretty much putting the safety of yourself over Power Roles, assuming you're telling the truth.

Edible plops down a joke vote when there's stuff to talk about. Whoo!

UK: Why did you purposely ignore the roleclaim?

##Unvote
##Vote: UK for ignoring the roleclaim, and then talking about it only after other people started talking about it. Seems opportunistic. Her stance on it is pretty wishy-washy too.

How are Power Roles threatened by my roleclaim? That is based on assuming that the Scum believe the claim, even if it was true.

[UncertainJakutten]

How does Sodium not feel opportunist?

No one else dancing to the tune first. He's pioneering the charge against me. I'm not sure if it can precisely be called opportunism.

[Serp]

How are Power Roles threatened by my roleclaim? That is based on assuming that the Scum believe the claim, even if it was true.

Scum hope to hit a power role with their night attacks, and if they knew you to be vanilla townie, that would mean that they'd be less likely to attack you, and therefore more likely to hit a power role.  Now, it's true that you could actually be a power role fakeclaiming vanilla townie so that scum are less likely to hit you (which is arguably self-defeating since everyone is aware of the possibility of that gambit anyway), but in that case you're lying to the town, too.  There's no reason to draw attention to yourself like that when if you hadn't roleclaimed at all, you'd blend right in with everyone else anyway.

As always, those ignoring a fine exit from RVS get my suspicion (Kitten, Kilga, Edible), but as much as it bugs me, the flips after every game where it happens seem to prove that it's not a very reliable scumtell.  Sodium's still justified for making it an early voting point, though.

[Sodium]

I dunno, you could've asked him about it?

I found your post wishy-washy because you worded it in a way that made it sound like "He did something scummy, but then he did some town like things afterwords, which makes me lean town, but could go back to being scummy in the future." Also, I didn't like the  "I don't have a meta for him, so I don't know his skill level, so yeah". Why would meta or skill level make such a big difference? It seemed like a poor way of justifying you not putting a solid stance.

Sorta. I'd put you equal with Seniwac, but I voted you because he already has a number of votes on him. Well, of the people that actually posted non-joke posts.

Half the time, the stuff I write in a post is for my own benefit so I can see my thoughts written(typed out).

Seniwac hasn't answered "Why would you do that?". I want his thought process while he made that post.

Oh yeah, right. Forgot to ask about this.

So I could just be being taken, so to speak.

...What does this mean? >_> The "be being" doesn't help.

---

Seniwac/Game Hen:
Scum knows where not to look then. You're claim gives scum a reason not to attack you, which means that they can ignore you, and have a smaller group of players to look at when looking for power roles. A lot of people have already said this. I don't think assuming scum assume it's true is much of a stretch, as townies don't need to lie, unless you're not a townie.

[UncertainJakutten]

As always, those ignoring a fine exit from RVS get my suspicion (Kitten, Kilga, Edible), but as much as it bugs me, the flips after every game where it happens seem to prove that it's not a very reliable scumtell.  Sodium's still justified for making it an early voting point, though.

Hey, Sodium, you remember that wishy washiness you were talking about?

HERE'S a good example of it

I found your post wishy-washy because you worded it in a way that made it sound like "He did something scummy, but then he did some town like things afterwords, which makes me lean town, but could go back to being scummy in the future." Also, I didn't like the  "I don't have a meta for him, so I don't know his skill level, so yeah". Why would meta or skill level make such a big difference? It seemed like a poor way of justifying you not putting a solid stance.

Ah, but you see, why should I solidly say he's town four pages into the game? And then I should just sit on it? No matter what he does? I...don't understand your logic sodium

As for skill level, at certain skill levels claiming vanilla is impermissible. However, meta makes exceptions to those skill levels. Having neither, I give him benefit of the doubt. Hence why it would have been useless to comment on at the time.

...What does this mean? >_> The "be being" doesn't help.

Taken for a fool.

Duh

Scum knows where not to look then. You're claim gives scum a reason not to attack you, which means that they can ignore you, and have a smaller group of players to look at when looking for power roles. A lot of people have already said this. I don't think assuming scum assume it's true is much of a stretch, as townies don't need to lie, unless you're not a townie.

Though it's arguable because of that very assumption a townie lie CAN potentially be advantageous, provided they STICK WITH IT and assume it's the truth.

but that gets into games players probably shouldn't play to maximize their team's chances of winning

Seniwac hasn't answered "Why would you do that?". I want his thought process while he made that post.

I thought he had. Especially since your post already has his answer incorporated into it. I don't agree with his reasoning, but if feels mildly justified in a slightly twisted view.

[Zengar Zombolt]

##Unvote
I want to see Seniwac's reasoning before deciding if he's being scummy or not. I mean, he may be diverting the attention somewhere else, which is very suspicious, or attracting attention which would be... I'm not sure, I'd rather see if that's the case before thinking the implications.

[WHMZakeri]

The Second "Things are heating up" Votecount

EX Na2O2 (L-6): Pesco
Suwako J. Moriya (L-6): Kiro
Kiro (L-6): Suwako J. Moriya
uµ(L-6):  Khorneish Game Hen
Khorneish Game Hen(L-5): uµ, Serpentarius
Hizengar Byakuren (L-7): Kilgamayan
Pesco (L-6): EX Na2O2, Kilgamayan
Edible (L-6): Kitten4u
Kilgamayan (L-7):Hizengar Byakuren
UncertainKitten (L-5): UncertainKitten, Zakeri, Ex Na2O2
Zakeri (L-∞): Uncertain Kitten

56.5 hours left in the day

*italics are unvotes

[UncertainJakutten]

UncertainKitten (L-5): UncertainKitten, Zakeri, Ex Na2O2
Zakeri (L-∞): Uncertain Kitten

I see an interesting mechanic here. Let us discuss how to abuse it.

Voting the mod is a vote for yourself...hmm...

Nope, nothing comes to mind ;

[Pesco]

Though it's arguable because of that very assumption a townie lie CAN potentially be advantageous, provided they STICK WITH IT and assume it's the truth.

but that gets into games players probably shouldn't play to maximize their team's chances of winning

Hey, guess where that got me last game.

I found your post wishy-washy because you worded it in a way that made it sound like "He did something scummy, but then he did some town like things afterwords, which makes me lean town, but could go back to being scummy in the future." Also, I didn't like the  "I don't have a meta for him, so I don't know his skill level, so yeah". Why would meta or skill level make such a big difference? It seemed like a poor way of justifying you not putting a solid stance.

I see your angle. But what is arguing with UK about her methods going to prove?

Needs more posting from the guys with their status as hidden.

[UncertainJakutten]

Hey, guess where that got me last game.

Wouldn't know, I was MIA.

What happened? Cliff's Notes version please

[Pesco]

http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.0

[Sodium]

Maybe wishy-washy isn't the right term, but you were going back and forth on what you thought of him. Unless I misread it, you said that he's scummy, then townie, then neutral within two sentences.

As for skill level, at certain skill levels claiming vanilla is impermissible. However, meta makes exceptions to those skill levels. Having neither, I give him benefit of the doubt. Hence why it would have been useless to comment on at the time.

...Alright then? Couldn't you assume what his skill level is, or even better, asked him directly. I'll give you the Meta thing though.

I mean generally the best thing for a townie to do is not lie. They can, but they'd have to know what exactly they're planning, doing, etc., and seeing as Seniwac is asking why claiming VT for no reason in RVS is bad, I doubt that he has a plan. Even if he did have a plan, surely he would've considered the negative effects on town.

[notgameaffecting]4 pages? Awesome people use 50 posts per page, so this would be page 2. =3[/notgameaffecting]

@Mod:No Fair, we need an infinite number of votes to lynch you.

Keeping vote for now.

[Kitten4u]

Well I certainly wasn't expecting that to be a huge deal.  Anyway...

Seniwac said that he was a newbie in the sign up topic, so make sure all of you keep that in mind.  Keeping that in mind I don't see it as all that scummy since roleclaiming early is a common newbie mistake (to the point that the more experienced players playing in newbie games on MS say not to do so their first post a lot of the time).  So, I didn't see the claim as particularly unusual, hence my lack of commenting on it until now.  And since he's posted more it looks like he really didn't know that claiming early was bad, so I still see the claim as a null tell.

[UncertainJakutten]

Maybe wishy-washy isn't the right term, but you were going back and forth on what you thought of him. Unless I misread it, you said that he's scummy, then townie, then neutral within two sentences.

If you read it properly, you'd realize the initial claim was scummy. But it wasn't something I wanted to bring up, prefering to see if future behavior supported this analysis. However, his subsequent questioning gave him slight town points. Slightly town is pretty damn close to neutral and up for revision if he decides to be scummy. Thusly, my stance is CLEARLY slightly town, but quite mutable. Perhaps elaborating the last part was unnecessary.

...Alright then? Couldn't you assume what his skill level is, or even better, asked him directly. I'll give you the Meta thing though.

If I wanted to get the most inaccurate, aggrandized, and biased view possible, yes, I could ask him his skill level. His answer will be affected by the situation at hand.

I have to basically work with a blank slate here.

4 pages? Awesome people use 50 posts per page, so this would be page 2. =3

I'd rather set it to 15-20 myself. We have that option?

I mean generally the best thing for a townie to do is not lie. They can, but they'd have to know what exactly they're planning, doing, etc., and seeing as Seniwac is asking why claiming VT for no reason in RVS is bad, I doubt that he has a plan. Even if he did have a plan, surely he would've considered the negative effects on town.

Well, the obvious plan has already been enumerated. But, either way, it's a pile of WIFOM. He has the advantage of not having a meta, so it's harder to determine layers or WIFOM.

Seniwac said that he was a newbie in the sign up topic, so make sure all of you keep that in mind.

He's also been banned from mafia games here in the past. He does have some experience. But it was before my time, hence my lack of data

Keeping that in mind I don't see it as all that scummy since roleclaiming early is a common newbie mistake (to the point that the more experienced players playing in newbie games on MS say not to do so their first post a lot of the time).

Intriguing. I didn't really run into that but I rarely play with a full set of newbies

So, I didn't see the claim as particularly unusual, hence my lack of commenting on it until now.  And since he's posted more it looks like he really didn't know that claiming early was bad, so I still see the claim as a null tell.

Good call, overall

You SURE you're new?

[UncertainJakutten]

http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.0

I'm sorry, you must have missed the "Cliff's Notes version please" portion of my post. I have neither the time nor the inclination to read a game I had nothing to do with. Perhaps you can breifly explain the situation you alluded to?

[Kitten4u]

He's also been banned from mafia games here in the past. He does have some experience. But it was before my time, hence my lack of data

Hm, I didn't know this.  But since it really looks like he didn't know it was bad to claim early I'm inclined to believe that the claim is a newbie tell instead of a scum tell.

You SURE you're new?

Yep

[UncertainJakutten]

Hm, I didn't know this.  But since it really looks like he didn't know it was bad to claim early I'm inclined to believe that the claim is a newbie tell instead of a scum tell.

I'd just be careful of these assumptions. However, my current stance is one very similar involving such benefit of the doubt.

[Suwako Moriya]

Claim's dumb. Dude's probably town. Will be ignoring him for the rest of the day.
 
 ##Unvote, ##Vote: Serp This is kinda obvious, why're you voting him?

[Nachtwanderlied]

##Unvote
I want to see Seniwac's reasoning before deciding if he's being scummy or not. I mean, he may be diverting the attention somewhere else, which is very suspicious, or attracting attention which would be... I'm not sure, I'd rather see if that's the case before thinking the implications.

What could I possibly be diverting attention from? This is the only topic in discussion, so I can't possibly divert the topic from itself to itself.

So explain this a bit more .

##UNVOTE

[Nachtwanderlied]

EDIT:

S-Moriya: It may have been anti-town and scummy, but I did it to end RVS and promote discussion.

[UncertainJakutten]

EDIT:

S-Moriya: It may have been anti-town and scummy, but I did it to end RVS and promote discussion.

...

##Unvote, Vote Khorneish Game Hen

Doing something scummy on purpose to "end RVS" is RIDICULOUSLY useless. You actually get good data when something NATURAL happens to end it!

I'm not sure if you are just antitown or scummy, but with that you kinda trashed your newbie excuse.

[Suwako Moriya]

Anti-town, yes. Scummy, not really...

Although actually that makes me change my mind. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Khorneish Game Hen. That's a silly excuse, RVS ends on it's own, there's no need to rush it by giving up tactical ground to scum. Can't believe that was a conscious townie decision, ergo you're lying, ergo die.

[Suwako Moriya]

SUP UK

[UncertainJakutten]

SUP UK

Hai thar! Just passing through, taking your reasons to vote someone before you've actually posted them

[Edible]

Something very familiar to the current situation happened when what's-his-name claimed Town Bomb in Yume Nikki early in the day, and we spent the rest of the day Benny Hilling him.

In short, it's a pretty pointless newbie tactic, but I'm gonna call it a null tell for now because it's not really setting off my scumdar.

UK bothers me.  Maybe I'm becoming allergic to cats again... maybe not.

[Nachtwanderlied]

...

##Unvote, Vote Khorneish Game Hen

Doing something scummy on purpose to "end RVS" is RIDICULOUSLY useless. You actually get good data when something NATURAL happens to end it!

I'm not sure if you are just antitown or scummy, but with that you kinda trashed your newbie excuse.

And how did this thrash the newbie excuse? Would an experienced player admit that consciously? Also why vote on me when you seem unsecure on your point. And why would this data gathered be unnatural?

[Nachtwanderlied]

gorram, forgot my vote

##VOTE: UNCERTAINKITTEN