Author Topic: [Call for Help] Story of a Lost Sky SRPG Project - Seeking Artists and Musicians (Read 20618 times)

Anunsew · « **Reply #30 on:** July 20, 2011, 03:24:03 AM »

Quote from: FawkesGarde on July 20, 2011, 02:45:54 AM

I'm having a hard time describing what's problematic with this song. When I listen to it, it seems like the song is completely saturating my speakers / headphones. Can someone who is much more knowledgable about music take a listen to it?

I believe that it's heavily compressed (not format compression, I mean audio compression). The track would sound bad with an audio system that has an EQ amplifier/bass boost like Realtek.

It has little dynamics, and the compression doesn't let the sound level drop too far from the clipping level. I think it was recorded too close to the peak level.

I could be wrong though, I'm just inferring this from the sample output. >.<

Quote from: FawkesGarde on July 20, 2011, 02:45:54 AM

@Anunsew of the Fake Moonlight
@Biohazard

I know that PARU said he had other stuff to finish before starting on SoaLS stuff, did you two have any preferences on what you want to work on. I'm not sure how best to assign out the songs to everyone.

I'm good at fast-paced battle themes. I also have some experience with themes that concentrate on strings (pseudo-classical themes). I don't usually do slow themes, and whenever I try arranging any relaxing themes it always ends up being energetic.

Bio · « **Reply #31 on:** July 20, 2011, 04:02:51 AM »

Just give me sample scenarios, and I'l see what I can make of it in my spare time. I have yet to listen to the one you provided though.

Quote from: Anunsew of the Fake Moonlight on July 20, 2011, 03:24:03 AM

I'm good at fast-paced battle themes. I also have some experience with themes that concentrate on strings (pseudo-classical themes). I don't usually do slow themes, and whenever I try arranging any relaxing themes it always ends up being energetic.

Haven't actually tried slow stuff. Exception is music box.

DX7.EP · « **Reply #32 on:** July 20, 2011, 08:11:06 AM »

Quote from: FawkesGarde on July 20, 2011, 02:45:54 AM

I'm having a hard time describing what's problematic with this song. When I listen to it, it seems like the song is completely saturating my speakers / headphones. Can someone who is much more knowledgable about music take a listen to it?

Too much compression, as Anunsew indicated. Plus it lacks dynamics balancing and mixing. Sounds muddy, somewhat like my TTS-1 Hong theme mix (which was also done with little mixing - Spaztique, the local Sonar expert, made a much better mixed version last week based on my CWP).

Muted trumpets don't sound too good. Too much attack - increase it if possible. @Nazerine - what did you use to write this (DAW, VSTi/SF2/AU/hardware, etc.)?

Quote from: Anunsew of the Fake Moonlight on July 20, 2011, 03:24:03 AM

audio system that has an EQ amplifier/bass boost like Realtek.

..wait, what? :V
(I am aware they have them, but only in their Windows drivers, and it still sounds like crap and runs off CPU due to it being an integrated sound card)

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I'm good at fast-paced battle themes. I also have some experience with themes that concentrate on strings (pseudo-classical themes). I don't usually do slow themes, and whenever I try arranging any relaxing themes it always ends up being energetic.

...same here. Expand this to composing these as well, along with comical ones - Rinnosuke shop theme (for the VN project here) is taking a while as a result, and I'm sure my take isn't quite comical or anything.

Quote from: Biohazurd on July 20, 2011, 04:02:51 AM

Haven't actually tried slow stuff. Exception is music box.

...that's a funny exception. :V

Spaztique · « **Reply #33 on:** July 20, 2011, 07:55:18 PM »

Quote from: PARU Magnificent Breweries GmbH on July 20, 2011, 08:11:06 AM

Too much compression, as Anunsew indicated. Plus it lacks dynamics balancing and mixing. Sounds muddy, somewhat like my TTS-1 Hong theme mix (which was also done with little mixing - Spaztique, the local Sonar expert, made a much better mixed version last week based on my CWP).

I was about to say something about the song being heavily compressed, but you guys already hit it right on the money. (Also, that mix I didn't wasn't just based on the .cwp; it was the .cwp.)

Here's my method of boosting dynamics:
1. Turn down everything in the mix to 0 and then work your way up slowly, trying to go nowhere past 40 midi velocity or -10 db for audio sources. It also helps to mix and pan everything in mono so that each sound doesn't fight for space in the soundspace (and yes, as strange is this may sound, you can pan in mono). Also, if you're working in a daw with input gain, decrease it to -10.0 or -20.0 db for the extra space.
2. When everything sounds good in both mono and stereo, add very light compression (like 3:1 with a 1.8 db threshhold, 0.1 ms attack and 280 ms release). The idea behind this kind of compression is to flatten the peaks so that all of the instruments "sit" together (and when you listen to a song with compression on and off, you'll know what they mean by "sit"), but too much compression makes everything "get down on the ground with its hands over its head begging for dear life" rather than "sit".
3. Now that the track is compressed, there is one more thing to boost the peaks, especially since the mix should be extremely quiet at this point: brickwall peak limiting. For a free peak limiter, I would highly recommend the Aradaz Maximizer. Just remember: like compression, it is possible to boost a peak limiter to excessive levels and ruin the sound. Personally, I go for a +6.0 db boost with a peak limit of -1.2 db for headroom, but you may need a little extra boost; just as long as you don't squash everything.

DX7.EP · « **Reply #34 on:** July 20, 2011, 08:20:44 PM »

Quote from: Spaztique on July 20, 2011, 07:55:18 PM

I was about to say something about the song being heavily compressed, but you guys already hit it right on the money. (Also, that mix I didn't wasn't just based on the .cwp; it was the .cwp.)

OK that was what I meant. But the MP3 and video versions were mixed slightly after bouncing audio tracks, without reflecting changes in the original CWP.
Already working on the next (transposed-from-scratch) song for said project, and opted to use 4 TTS-1 units with each channel having its own output to facilitate track and instrument-based bounces and waveform mixing. Also will make a SD-20 version, though its 64 notes of polyphony (compared to 4 TTS-1s at 128 notes each - 512 potential) will make things a bit tougher.

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Here's my method of boosting dynamics:
1. Turn down everything in the mix to 0 and then work your way up slowly, trying to go nowhere past 40 midi velocity or -10 db for audio sources. It also helps to mix and pan everything in mono so that each sound doesn't fight for space in the soundspace (and yes, as strange is this may sound, you can pan in mono). Also, if you're working in a daw with input gain, decrease it to -10.0 or -20.0 db for the extra space.
2. When everything sounds good in both mono and stereo, add very light compression (like 3:1 with a 1.8 db threshhold, 0.1 ms attack and 280 ms release). The idea behind this kind of compression is to flatten the peaks so that all of the instruments "sit" together (and when you listen to a song with compression on and off, you'll know what they mean by "sit"), but too much compression makes everything "get down on the ground with its hands over its head begging for dear life" rather than "sit".
3. Now that the track is compressed, there is one more thing to boost the peaks, especially since the mix should be extremely quiet at this point: brickwall peak limiting. For a free peak limiter, I would highly recommend the Aradaz Maximizer. Just remember: like compression, it is possible to boost a peak limiter to excessive levels and ruin the sound. Personally, I go for a +6.0 db boost with a peak limit of -1.2 db for headroom, but you may need a little extra boost; just as long as you don't squash everything.

#1 and 2 are brilliant ideas...use them regularly (except for the mono bit. that was a bit new).
As for #3...hm, maybe this will be an interesting thing to try! That is, once I get my Snow Leopard install restored, upgraded to Lion, and reinstall Logic again (and find peak limiter AU amongst its exhaustive plug-in set).
As for Sonar-based work, well, I'll add Aradaz in my FX chain.

S. Nazerine · « **Reply #35 on:** July 23, 2011, 03:27:50 PM »

Thank you, PARU, Spaztique, and Anunsew! This is exactly where I get lost with digital music--the entirety of my compositional experience has been writing for live musicians, so all the mixing and whatnot is completely new to me.
Sorry for being slow to reply; for some reason MotK has decided it would be funny to never send me emails when people reply to topics (again).

@PARU: I'm using Logic Express 8 with SF2s loaded in with the EXS24 sampler. Everything I have is built into Logic, basically.
Erm, I'm not sure what you want me to do about the muted trumpet attack--is it too much, or too little? Also, do you know where I could find a trumpet SF2 that sounds better in the first place? This one is pretty ugly, but it's the best I have. I spent some time Googling for one, but didn't find anything other than broken links and really bad/out of tune samples.

@Anunsew: how do you mean, heavily compressed? I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, but I know next to nothing about mixing. Do you mean I should pan the instruments farther apart? What do EQ/bass amplifiers do that I want here--clean up the sound? Make the lower registers stronger? How do I "pan in mono," and what will that do?

@Spaztique: thank you for that! I will endeavor to follow your method, because it sounds like you know what you're doing. Logic lets me go from negative infinity dB to +6--I assume by "0" you're talking about midi velocity, but I've never used that. How does it work? Is it interchangeable with dB, or are they two separate, mutually compatible things?

And finally, a Logic-specific question??is it possible to copy and paste automation data, or am I going to be going through and setting each measure by hand?

Thank you all very much!

DX7.EP · « **Reply #36 on:** July 23, 2011, 04:14:22 PM »

Quote from: S. Nazerine on July 23, 2011, 03:27:50 PM

@PARU: I'm using Logic Express 8 with SF2s loaded in with the EXS24 sampler. Everything I have is built into Logic, basically.
Erm, I'm not sure what you want me to do about the muted trumpet attack--is it too much, or too little? Also, do you know where I could find a trumpet SF2 that sounds better in the first place? This one is pretty ugly, but it's the best I have. I spent some time Googling for one, but didn't find anything other than broken links and really bad/out of tune samples.

(Yes! I'm not the only Logic user here! :V)
As for the muted trumpets, the attack is too little. Increase it, which will delay the initial strike a bit.
THFont has a decent trumpet (actually, ZUNpet) sample that's based on the one ZUN uses (SD-20/80/90 Romantic Tp.). There are sites like Hammersound and SF2files that offer a lot as well.

I use my SD-20 for solo trumpets, though, and mix it in later. (shame that the editing program was PPC though - I can't use it anymore under Lion)

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@Anunsew: how do you mean, heavily compressed? I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, but I know next to nothing about mixing. Do you mean I should pan the instruments farther apart? What do EQ/bass amplifiers do that I want here--clean up the sound? Make the lower registers stronger? How do I "pan in mono," and what will that do?

I'll answer the other questions too since we use the same DAW. (Anunsew uses FL while Spaztique sticks with Sonar 8 - me, Logic 9 + Sonar X1)

By 'heavily compressed' it means that the sounds are all quite muffled, and none of them stand out at all, resulting in a muddy output.

Logic manages compression via the Compressor AU, which you insert into an audio or software instrument track via "Inserts".
For EQ and bass amplification, use the Channel EQ AU, maybe Bass Amp as well. (not sure if latter is in Express 8, though, since 9 added lots of amp effects)
Mono output - change the channel output from 'Stereo Out' to Mono -> Output 1/2. 1 defaults to the left, 2 to the right. Though I'm not entirely sure if this is the right subject.

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@Spaztique: thank you for that! I will endeavor to follow your method, because it sounds like you know what you're doing. Logic lets me go from negative infinity dB to +6--I assume by "0" you're talking about midi velocity, but I've never used that. How does it work? Is it interchangeable with dB, or are they two separate, mutually compatible things?

Adjust your volume settings per channel to -10dB as he suggested. As for the peak limiting, use AUPeakLimiter.
MIDI velocity/expression/etc. is used for hardware and software MIDI synths. The Logic default software instruments, however, behave more like audio tracks.

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And finally, a Logic-specific question……is it possible to copy and paste automation data, or am I going to be going through and setting each measure by hand?

Select the regions you want to copy and Automation data will follow.

You can feel free to send me the Logic project file. However, I cannot guarantee compatibility (Logic Express 8 -> Logic Studio 9 is OK, other way...untested).

@Spaztique - instead of adjusting MIDI velocity, tweaking Expression makes much more sense IMO.

RuneDevros · « **Reply #37 on:** July 23, 2011, 04:39:28 PM »

For Biohazurd and Anunsew of the Fake Moonlight, here are a handful of songs for scenes that would be the highest priority right now. I'll list out a few scenarios and some remarks about reusability. The songs listed were the ones that we came up with during the planning of the project. Feel free to suggest others that might fit better.

1. Chapter 1 Stage 1 - Youmu and co encounter the Fuzzballs and Walking Trees in the opening stage. Maybe going with the theme of Youkai running amok. It's their first encounter with the enemy and can also be used to set up other battles, like the opening of Chapter 2 where the goal is to help Keine protect the village. The song we were thinking of using for this was IN Stage 4 - Retribution for the Eternal Night ~ Imperishable Night.

2. Chapter 2 Stage 3 - Fuyuhana has just cleared the sky of all the clouds and her four Kodama Lord lieutenants have appeared to fight the party. I want to establish a feeling of being suddenly ambushed by an unexpected enemy and having to frantically react to it, before transitioning into the actual battle theme. We can use this in other places where appropriate situations call for. The song we were thinking of using for this was SA Extra Stage - Last Remote.

3. Chapter 3 Stage 1, 2, or 3 - I might think it'd be helpful to have a new battle them for Chapter 3, which takes place in the Youkai Mountain and involves the Tengu. The scenario is that the Tengu are reluctant to let the characters into the mountain which results in a fight at the start of the chapter as well as a trial battle that they have to complete in order to gain passage to the top of the mountain. Arranging Aya's MoF battle theme might work here?

S. Nazerine · « **Reply #38 on:** July 23, 2011, 04:56:34 PM »

Thank you again! I will work with what you've told me so far, but I also have a few more questions.

I can't find Bass Amp in the inserts, so I'm guessing it's not in LE8, but some of the instruments have different things in the inserts menu--for instance, Limiter is only readily available for one of the instruments. Is there a place where I can "add" limiters to the menu, or is what's there what's there?

Quote

Mono output - change the channel output from 'Stereo Out' to Mono -> Output 1/2. 1 defaults to the left, 2 to the right. Though I'm not entirely sure if this is the right subject.

Where is this? I can't find it in any of the menus??

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Adjust your volume settings per channel to -10dB as he suggested. As for the peak limiting, use AUPeakLimiter.

Should -10dB be where I start, or where I end up (should it be the quietest parts, or the loudest)? I'm not quite sure from what the two of you are saying.

Thank you!

Also, I tried to attach the file, but it froze the page, and mediafire is telling me it's is empty, so I'm not sure what to do.

DX7.EP · « **Reply #39 on:** July 23, 2011, 05:17:23 PM »

@Fawkes - I'll see if spare time will allow for a mix.

Quote from: S. Nazerine on July 23, 2011, 04:56:34 PM

I can't find Bass Amp in the inserts, so I'm guessing it's not in LE8, but some of the instruments have different things in the inserts menu--for instance, Limiter is only readily available for one of the instruments. Is there a place where I can "add" limiters to the menu, or is what's there what's there?Where is this? I can't find it in any of the menus……

The list of plugins depends on the track's type of instrument (audio, software inst, MIDI). Limiter should be under Inserts -> Dynamics -> Limiter.

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Should -10dB be where I start, or where I end up (should it be the quietest parts, or the loudest)? I'm not quite sure from what the two of you are saying.

-10dB is the maximum that the mix will go to. Start at -infinity.

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Also, I tried to attach the file, but it froze the page, and mediafire is telling me it's is empty, so I'm not sure what to do.

Oh.
Logic projects generally come with their own folders - try to zip the entire project folder up and upload it.

S. Nazerine · « **Reply #40 on:** July 30, 2011, 08:04:13 PM »

Sorry for being slow.
I followed Spaztique's instructions, as best as I could understand. I'm posting this WIP now because I want to know if I'm heading in the right direction, or if this is worse than where I started. Step three gave me some trouble, though: my compressor can't do a threshold of anything higher than 0 dB, an attack of anything less than 1 ms, or a release of anything more than 270 ms. I guess it's a lousy compressor? (do you know of a good one for Logic, PARU?)
Also, should I be manually emphasizing the first beat? Is that something that's essential, or is it better to avoid it, or is it just down to what sounds good?
I did it to some extent, but in some places I felt like it sounded really dyspeptic so I got rid of it.

http://soundcloud.com/user4836966/soals-victory

And here's the Logic project: http://www.mediafire.com/?rz6crpkprhy7zxl

DX7.EP · « **Reply #41 on:** July 30, 2011, 11:47:29 PM »

Quote from: S. Nazerine on July 30, 2011, 08:04:13 PM

Sorry for being slow.
I followed Spaztique's instructions, as best as I could understand. I'm posting this WIP now because I want to know if I'm heading in the right direction, or if this is worse than where I started. Step three gave me some trouble, though: my compressor can't do a threshold of anything higher than 0 dB, an attack of anything less than 1 ms, or a release of anything more than 270 ms. I guess it's a lousy compressor? (do you know of a good one for Logic, PARU?)

Sonar and Logic use somewhat different compression algorithms. Spaztique's guide is Sonar-centric, and though I use both DAWs I can't really tell you what the Logic equivalent is ATM. Not enough experience with Sonar's Compressor VST, that's why.

I tend to compress more heavily than what Spaztique suggested.

For advanced work use AUMultiBandCompressor. However I have no idea how it works.

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Also, should I be manually emphasizing the first beat? Is that something that's essential, or is it better to avoid it, or is it just down to what sounds good?
I did it to some extent, but in some places I felt like it sounded really dyspeptic so I got rid of it.

http://soundcloud.com/user4836966/soals-victory

And here's the Logic project: http://www.mediafire.com/?rz6crpkprhy7zxl

Usually the third.
I'll look at the file and Logic project later when I return home.
EDIT: Soundcloud's preview function is failing me miserably. Any direct DL link?

S. Nazerine · « **Reply #42 on:** July 31, 2011, 02:20:38 AM »

Here: http://www.mediafire.com/?cb2pu6hcqc9e1oy

Quote from: PARU Magnificent Breweries GmbH on July 30, 2011, 11:47:29 PM

I tend to compress more heavily than what Spaztique suggested.

What constitutes heavier compression? Longer attack time? Lower threshold?

Bio · « **Reply #43 on:** July 31, 2011, 03:26:25 AM »

Ok. Let's actually get back into the music making business.
Also warning, bass heavy (can't help it).

DX7.EP · « **Reply #44 on:** July 31, 2011, 03:51:06 AM »

Quote from: S. Nazerine on July 31, 2011, 02:20:38 AM

Here: http://www.mediafire.com/?cb2pu6hcqc9e1oy

...some more compression, check.
I still don't like the sound of the instruments. I'll look into it when returning home since my laptop does not have Mac, let alone Logic, installed, and I'm out of town. I may add more parts to it and change instrumentation.

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What constitutes heavier compression? Longer attack time? Lower threshold?

...this is a tough one to describe, but compared to Spaztique's settings I use a greater ratio (3:3:1 or more), 0.5-0.7 knee, and adjust threshold to use LMS and about -5 or lower dB, slightly more gain, and limiter on. Also attack and release are higher and lower values, respectively.

Quote from: Biohazurd on July 31, 2011, 03:26:25 AM

Ok. Let's actually get back into the music making business.
Also warning, bass heavy (can't help it).

Electronic music needs a heavy bass, but for orchestral it doesn't make as much sense.

Bio · « **Reply #45 on:** July 31, 2011, 04:02:07 AM »

Quote from: PARU Magnificent Breweries GmbH on July 31, 2011, 03:51:06 AM

Electronic music needs a heavy bass, but for orchestral it doesn't make as much sense.

oh i'll make it make sense.

DX7.EP · « **Reply #46 on:** July 31, 2011, 04:08:53 AM »

Quote from: Biohazurd on July 31, 2011, 04:02:07 AM

oh i'll make it make sense.

I'd love to hear the results of your attempts to make heavy bass on orchestral-style make sense. I love a good bass sound. :V

Anunsew · « **Reply #47 on:** August 03, 2011, 02:32:51 AM »

Quote from: FawkesGarde on July 23, 2011, 04:39:28 PM

2. Chapter 2 Stage 3 - Fuyuhana has just cleared the sky of all the clouds and her four Kodama Lord lieutenants have appeared to fight the party. I want to establish a feeling of being suddenly ambushed by an unexpected enemy and having to frantically react to it, before transitioning into the actual battle theme. We can use this in other places where appropriate situations call for. The song we were thinking of using for this was SA Extra Stage - Last Remote.

Submission for Chapter 2 Stage 3:
Last Remote

Er...an unsubtle attempt to rearrange Last Remote from SA. Well, it's supposed to be a battle theme, but it lacks refinement or originality. :/

Something is wrong with this track, I just can't put it in one word. Or maybe there's so many things wrong with this track, I don't know where to start. Bah, I'm depressed now.

On the bright side, it can be started from 1:04 as an alternate boss theme...I think.

RuneDevros · « **Reply #48 on:** August 03, 2011, 03:02:31 AM »

Great job! I like it a lot. I'd definitely see this being used as a boss theme too. I'll play around and see if it fits well with the CH2ST3 scene. PARU, could you give the song a listen? I'm not well studied enough in music to give more meaningful feedback.

DX7.EP · « **Reply #49 on:** August 03, 2011, 03:52:22 PM »

Quote from: FawkesGarde on August 03, 2011, 03:02:31 AM

Great job! I like it a lot. I'd definitely see this being used as a boss theme too. I'll play around and see if it fits well with the CH2ST3 scene. PARU, could you give the song a listen? I'm not well studied enough in music to give more meaningful feedback.

Did that, put feedback in Anunsew's thread.

flamezero16 · « **Reply #50 on:** August 03, 2011, 04:07:42 PM »

Paru, I can't understand half the feedback you give, but i'd like too xD Need to get better at mixing, and turning random knobs only get's me so far =p How did you become so knowledgeable on the subject, self study, or did you take a musical engineering class perhaps?

DX7.EP · « **Reply #51 on:** August 03, 2011, 04:33:47 PM »

Quote from: flamezero16 on August 03, 2011, 04:07:42 PM

Paru, I can't understand half the feedback you give, but i'd like too xD Need to get better at mixing, and turning random knobs only get's me so far =p How did you become so knowledgeable on the subject, self study, or did you take a musical engineering class perhaps?

Mostly self-study, a bit of former violin experience, and a LOT of trial-and-error with various software, hardware, etc. combinations. That's how I've been doing things since first composing and remixing 4 years ago.
I'll definitely give some feedback on yours as well.

flamezero16 · « **Reply #52 on:** August 03, 2011, 04:37:41 PM »

Quote from: PARU Magnificent Breweries GmbH on August 03, 2011, 04:33:47 PM

Mostly self-study, a bit of former violin experience, and a LOT of trial-and-error with various software, hardware, etc. combinations. That's how I've been doing things since first composing and remixing 4 years ago.
I'll definitely give some feedback on yours as well.

Well thankya amigo, I appreciate it. I'm specifically having trouble with getting quality sound in both headphones and speakers, so ifin ya don't mind, I may come to ya for help in the future

DX7.EP · « **Reply #53 on:** August 03, 2011, 04:39:47 PM »

Quote from: flamezero16 on August 03, 2011, 04:37:41 PM

Well thankya amigo, I appreciate it. I'm specifically having trouble with getting quality sound in both headphones and speakers, so ifin ya don't mind, I may come to ya for help in the future

I usually work with headphones exclusively. Speakers kill the sound IMO; however, it is a very good idea to test them on various speakers and headphones as well due to their variety amongst the end listeners. But for initial work it's studio headphones or bust (and no, Bose and Beats by Dre are nothing close to that).
And I've just posted feedback on your Last Remote rendition.

S. Nazerine · « **Reply #54 on:** August 03, 2011, 05:13:43 PM »

PARU:
I changed the compression around, as you had instructed. Attack is now 2.5 ms, release 220 ms (also, it seems that it can go above 270 ms, after all? I guess Logic's little dial thingies had me confused, or something), ratio 3.5:1, knee 0.7, compressor threshold RMS (you meant RMS, right?) -5.5dB, auto gain 5.0dB (incidentally, I have the little menu underneath gain set to 0dB, because that sounds like it's actually doing something, but should I have it set to off or 12dB instead? What's it do?), and limiter threshold is the same. I also made the cello a good deal louder, because I felt like it was getting drowned out.
I've also played around a little with the instrumentation. I agree with you that the muted trumpet is unpleasant, but I'm not sure that anything I have is better, and I don't really like the idea of a ZUNpet (ZUNpets sound even worse, to my ears). If you do think a ZUNpet is the way to go I'll download the one you mentioned earlier and give it a try, though.
Here it is with instrumentation unchanged (and cello at its original volume): http://www.mediafire.com/?n7l226mf28uwbbc
With horns instead of trumpet: http://www.mediafire.com/?9l5x7yb1r94tw78
With clarinets: http://www.mediafire.com/?3z4knl0ncb5qi14
With clarinet and piccolo: http://www.mediafire.com/?zjg01ccjbbgjcjx
With clarinet and horn: http://www.mediafire.com/?977ly0x7u955629
I think the second and the fifth are my personal favorites, but I defer to your judgment.

Finally, I'm not entirely sure what a lot of the stuff I've been changing around in the compressor window is. I think I know what attack does, and limiter seems to prevent it from going above a certain volume, but how does the release work? What's the ratio--3.5 what to 1 what? What is "knee"? From the little graph it shows me, it looks like gain affects the rate at which instruments continue to increase in volume as they get louder (the second second derivative of the volume, I guess), but how (and is that even what it's doing)? Is the compressor threshold what it sounds like--just the volume at which all these settings come into play--or does it serve some other function?
I've looked a lot of this stuff up online in the past, but I don't usually come away feeling any more informed than when I went in. I don't expect you to give me a full start-to-finish technical explanation of everything, but maybe if you could sort of explain a little bit about what they do and why then I could have a better chance of understanding the next time I go looking around for detailed information on them?
Thank you!

PS: let me know if you're worried about me hijacking the thread to grill people about digital music stuff and work on this song, rune. We can move to PMs or something, if PARU is okay with that.

DX7.EP · « **Reply #55 on:** August 03, 2011, 07:37:26 PM »

Quote from: S. Nazerine on August 03, 2011, 05:13:43 PM

PARU:
I changed the compression around, as you had instructed. Attack is now 2.5 ms, release 220 ms (also, it seems that it can go above 270 ms, after all? I guess Logic's little dial thingies had me confused, or something), ratio 3.5:1, knee 0.7, compressor threshold RMS (you meant RMS, right?) -5.5dB, auto gain 5.0dB (incidentally, I have the little menu underneath gain set to 0dB, because that sounds like it's actually doing something, but should I have it set to off or 12dB instead? What's it do?), and limiter threshold is the same. I also made the cello a good deal louder, because I felt like it was getting drowned out.

Yeah, I meant RMS.

I usually don't mess with auto-gain, that menu you mentioned.

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I've also played around a little with the instrumentation. I agree with you that the muted trumpet is unpleasant, but I'm not sure that anything I have is better, and I don't really like the idea of a ZUNpet (ZUNpets sound even worse, to my ears). If you do think a ZUNpet is the way to go I'll download the one you mentioned earlier and give it a try, though.
Here it is with instrumentation unchanged (and cello at its original volume): http://www.mediafire.com/?n7l226mf28uwbbc
With horns instead of trumpet: http://www.mediafire.com/?9l5x7yb1r94tw78
With clarinets: http://www.mediafire.com/?3z4knl0ncb5qi14
With clarinet and piccolo: http://www.mediafire.com/?zjg01ccjbbgjcjx
With clarinet and horn: http://www.mediafire.com/?977ly0x7u955629
I think the second and the fifth are my personal favorites, but I defer to your judgment.

Fourth and fifth for me.
What I'd like to hear is that the first part of the melody use the fifth, then at the part where the cellos rise an octave switch the horn instrument to piccolo either via instrument switch events or new track. Then at the third bit have the two parts play concurrently.

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Finally, I'm not entirely sure what a lot of the stuff I've been changing around in the compressor window is. I think I know what attack does, and limiter seems to prevent it from going above a certain volume, but how does the release work? What's the ratio--3.5 what to 1 what? What is "knee"? From the little graph it shows me, it looks like gain affects the rate at which instruments continue to increase in volume as they get louder (the second second derivative of the volume, I guess), but how (and is that even what it's doing)? Is the compressor threshold what it sounds like--just the volume at which all these settings come into play--or does it serve some other function?
I've looked a lot of this stuff up online in the past, but I don't usually come away feeling any more informed than when I went in. I don't expect you to give me a full start-to-finish technical explanation of everything, but maybe if you could sort of explain a little bit about what they do and why then I could have a better chance of understanding the next time I go looking around for detailed information on them?
Thank you!

Release adjustment, IIRC, defines the maximum time for the instrument to get cut off by the compressor, but this is something I don't mess with often.
Gain adjusts the track's global volume, similar to the gain knob on guitar amps.
Compressor Threshold defines the peak volume and in turn the rest of the spectrum, while Limiter sets an artificial limit on top of that.

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PS: let me know if you're worried about me hijacking the thread to grill people about digital music stuff and work on this song, rune. We can move to PMs or something, if PARU is okay with that.

I'm fine with doing this discussion here. It allows other musicians to follow and suggest.

S. Nazerine · « **Reply #56 on:** August 03, 2011, 09:46:05 PM »

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Fourth and fifth for me.
What I'd like to hear is that the first part of the melody use the fifth, then at the part where the cellos rise an octave switch the horn instrument to piccolo either via instrument switch events or new track. Then at the third bit have the two parts play concurrently.

Something like this? http://www.mediafire.com/?1fpbb8jmvpc4t9e

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Release adjustment, IIRC, defines the maximum time for the instrument to get cut off by the compressor, but this is something I don't mess with often.
Gain adjusts the track's global volume, similar to the gain knob on guitar amps.
Compressor Threshold defines the peak volume and in turn the rest of the spectrum, while Limiter sets an artificial limit on top of that.

I see??thank you! I definitely think I should look into all this, ahaha.

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I'm fine with doing this discussion here. It allows other musicians to follow and suggest.

Likewise; I just want to make sure rune isn't worried about a long discussion making it looking like we're already far along in the process and scaring away other people who might want to contribute.

DX7.EP · « **Reply #57 on:** August 03, 2011, 10:55:06 PM »

Quote from: S. Nazerine on August 03, 2011, 09:46:05 PM

Something like this? http://www.mediafire.com/?1fpbb8jmvpc4t9e

Yeah, very similar to that!
I'd reduce the clarinet and horn track volumes a bit more (especially in the high-pitch bits) and apply Exciter AU (under Specialized) on Piccolo.
Also, I would suggest adding a vibrato effect to the woodwinds - this is not easy to do in Logic, however, without a keyboard controller. With one, it's a matter of adjusting modulation data with a modulation wheel during recording for most instruments. Without it, prepare to either set it manually by track events or adjust LFO parameters and effects in EXS24.

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Likewise; I just want to make sure rune isn't worried about a long discussion making it looking like we're already far along in the process and scaring away other people who might want to contribute.

...well, that is one side effect but I guess whatever is needed for this should be done too!

Anunsew · « **Reply #58 on:** August 04, 2011, 12:28:31 AM »

Thank for the feedback, PARU. I'm going to start doing another track~

Quote from: S. Nazerine on August 03, 2011, 05:13:43 PM

Finally, I'm not entirely sure what a lot of the stuff I've been changing around in the compressor window is. I think I know what attack does, and limiter seems to prevent it from going above a certain volume, but how does the release work? What's the ratio--3.5 what to 1 what? What is "knee"? From the little graph it shows me, it looks like gain affects the rate at which instruments continue to increase in volume as they get louder (the second second derivative of the volume, I guess), but how (and is that even what it's doing)? Is the compressor threshold what it sounds like--just the volume at which all these settings come into play--or does it serve some other function?
I've looked a lot of this stuff up online in the past, but I don't usually come away feeling any more informed than when I went in. I don't expect you to give me a full start-to-finish technical explanation of everything, but maybe if you could sort of explain a little bit about what they do and why then I could have a better chance of understanding the next time I go looking around for detailed information on them?
Thank you!

On compressors, here' the basic stuff.
Most compressors have the following:
Pre-Amp Gain (or Gain)
The amount of signal amplification to be used on the track Input signal before feeding it to the compressor. Increasing will amplify the volume. Too much will "squash" the track towards the Threshold, making it sound fat and saturated. ~~If that happens, you may need to think about getting your track a healthier diet.~~

Threshold
The signal strength required for the compressor to make it stop being lazy and do its job. For example, setting it at -15db will trigger the compressor when the signal goes past -15db and changes the signal strength according to the Ratio you have specified.

Making it too high will prevent the signal from ever reaching the threshold. You need to balance the Threshold amount with the least amount of additive Gain (to increase the Gain; subtractive Gain is to use the Pre-Amp gain to soften the sound)

Knee
Is the change of signal strength once the compression starts. Hard Knees make the compression sudden (good for percussive and instruments with fast attacks), while soft knees do the opposite (good for strings or sustained signals).

Ratio
Is the proportional change of the signal output from the input. For example, setting it to 3:1 will mean that the Input needs 3db to raise the Output signal by 1db. Changing it to higher values will make the compressor a brickwall--meaning that you'd need a ridiculously high amount of Input to raise the Output. This is useful if you want a Limiter(which is an entirely different tool from Compressor).

Note that on some compressors (like Maximus and FL Limiter), you can actually BOOST the signal with a compressor. For example a 1:3 signal will mean that for every 1db of Input, you're gonna get 3db of Output. However, not all compressors can do this.

Attack
Is the amount of delay AFTER the signal has passed the Threshold that the Compressor will WAIT before acting. Making it too short will destroy brightness since it takes away the "punch" of the signal's attack. Making it too long pretty much reduces the Compressor's use, unless the signal has a long sustaining signal.

Release
Is the amount of time the Compressor uses to stop it's compression and return the signal to its original strength. Making it too short triggers the Compressor immediately after Release time, making the signal distorted. Making it too long introduces a noticeable "breathing" or the pumping sound of the audio signal as it slowly returns back to normal. (Like Daft Punk's One More Time--that's a sidechain compressor thingie that does the weird wah-wah sound in the background)

Post-Amp Gain (not all compressors have this)
Is the amount of audio amplification that will be applied to the Output AFTER it has been compressed. Note that the compressor cannot touch the signal after Post-amps.

Note that the above is based on what I have researched on the Internet and from my stock knowledge, so feel free to correct me if I said anything wrong.

DX7.EP · « **Reply #59 on:** August 04, 2011, 01:21:40 AM »

Quote from: Anunsew ng Sampaguita on August 04, 2011, 12:28:31 AM

On compressors, here' the basic stuff.
Most compressors have the following:

That's going to be pretty useful in the future...thanks!