Author Topic: Power of the ladies: How do they work?  (Read 79394 times)

ToyoRai

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Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« on: May 22, 2013, 01:18:26 PM »
(As a quick reference of all of the listed abilities what characters have http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Characters/Abilities )

Across the Touhous series, we have seen many different powers from our ladies. From really powerful to not-so-great, to the ability to kill any one to creating dark mass which even she cannot see through

However, how do some of these powers work? How well have they mastery their powers? And how do you see them working?

For example, how does Remilia's power to manipulate fate work and why doesn't she use it that often? My theory: Her powers work like a wheel of fortune. When she activates her powers, the wheel spins and changes fate on where it lands. Unfortunately, she doesn't have that good luck with it. Some one just died and she decides to change the person's fate? Okay, but the guy might just die due of different reasons. So in the end, her powers aren't relieable.


So you have a question about character powers (Like why does Yukari's portals have eyes inside them)? Ask it here and you might get your answer (I am guessing they are other portal entrances). You have your own theories or ideas or thoughts on them? Sure thing, drop them here. However, do not try to suggest powers to characters. Its bit fine to question how they are able to do some stuff otuside of their abilities (Like Miko's moveset in HM does contain some weird stuff like flamethrower).


Also, because how big the thread has become, it would be recomended to use either bolds or italics when addressing the character you want to talk about.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 06:04:30 AM by ToyoRai »

game2011

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2013, 01:57:13 PM »
I think for characters like Remilia, Sanae, and Tewi, they can influence the way situations unfold by thinking or even simply being there.  For example, Sanae sees a plane's engine failing, so the plane is in danger of crashing.  She is shocked and concerned for the safety of the people inside the plane, so this activates her ability to make miracles happen by either having the engine work again all of a sudden or allow the plane to land safely without hurting anybody.  Either way, it would be a miracle that nothing bad happened.

That's what I think...

Sagus

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2013, 03:28:16 PM »
Most of their powers are explained (to a lesser or greater degree) in PMiSS and SoPM. Sanae's miracle working, for instance, is described very precisely: to invoke a miracle, she needs a spell casting time that is directly proportional to its greatness (SoPM: "The length of preparation differs depending on the magnitude of the miracle. She can cause a simple one with a single word, but to cause a cataclysmic-level miracle she requires several days of continuous casting").

Other powers are way more vague, like Remila's (PMiSS: "It is not sure whether or not she is using her ability to manipulate fate consciously, but it is said misfortune will befall those who are merely in her vicinity, and she can cause great change in the state of the daily lives of others with but a word"), so these are more interesting to speculate about.

My personal headcanon for Yukari's gaps is that she's a being pretty much something like Yog-Sothoth, spawning all of time and space, and the eyes and arms inside her gaps are a glimpse of her true form, with the blond girl being just an avatar. Being one with time and space would easily allow her to bend reality, know what's happening everywhere, and being able to appear anywhere. Yeah yeah, I know it's clich? and have absolutely zero basis in canon (in fact it outright contradicts it), and waaaay overpowers her, but I just like me some lovecraftian ladies is that so wrong :V
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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2013, 03:39:15 PM »
Ex Keine's powers are the biggest mystery to me. She has the power to "create history", which seems to imply that she can alter past events. Or maybe once something has happened it's set in stone, and she can only add new (past) events somehow. Or it could even mean that she can just do things in the present like anyone else, "creating history" the traditional way by doing. Given that she doesn't seem to use this power at all when you fight her, we can possibly assume that it either takes a lot of time and/or concentration and/or energy, is fairly limited in scope, or isn't legal within the Danmaku sytem. For all we know she can and does alter Gensokyo's timeline all the time, and the version we see is actually the result of her changing major events or installing new ones.
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Sagus

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2013, 03:55:37 PM »
I always interpreted Keine's powers as being pretty much "illusions"; like, her hakutaku form can add history in the sense that she can alter how people recall it. So, she "creates" it by altering it's record in the mind of people. For example, she could make it so that, in the village's history, they always had a festival on sundays; people would then suddenly have memories of always having a festival on sundays, and would probably start actually having them, in accordance to those memories.

Her power to "eat" history (or "hide" it) would be a weaker, opposite version of that; she can alter the way people perceive the world by hiding parts of history, but she doesn't change their knowledge of facts. Like in IN, she made it so that humans never settled in Gensokyo; therefore, even if you knew that the village was there, you wouldn't see it, hence why Reimu can't see anything but can still recall that there was a village there. Also, since Yukari could see the village and its inhabitants normally, it's likely that very powerful (or just more perceptive) people aren't affected by it.

...as you can see I waste many hours looking at the celling and wondering how touhou powers work :P
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 03:57:23 PM by Sagus »
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ToyoRai

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2013, 04:16:15 PM »
One of two weird powers then it comes by what the powers are has to come from Futo and Tojiko.
With Futo, her powers is manipulation of Feng Shui. Bravo, you can control geometry. Well freaking cheers. However, if we were to think she can use magic which she names after stuff in feng shui, that starts to make sense.
However, Tojiko's power has been lsited as manipulation of thunder. Well freaking cheers, you can create loud noises. In fact, I have bit of a problem when lightning related stuff is called thunder.
One last thing has to come with Magicians, atleast Alice and Patchouli. How do they delevop their powers? Did they just born with it or did they exclusively train on puppetry and elemental magic they became their second nature?

Sagus

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2013, 04:24:58 PM »
Futo's "Feng Shui" is just the name she gives to her mish-mash of taoist and shinto magic, it seems, and Tojiko's thunder power is a consequence of her being a vengeful spirit (all of them can summon thunder to a lesser or greater degree, depeding on how strong their resentment is).

Magicians can either be born magicians, in which case they become immortal after researching the "abandon temper" magic (and thus become complete magicians), or be humans that study magic until they learn the "abandon food" magic, which then turns them into magicians. According to Akyuu, anyway.

Alice and Patchouli's abilities are most likely simply the kind of magic they specialized in, like Byakuren's specialization in body-strengthening magic and Marisa's specialization in light and heat magic.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 04:43:31 PM by Sagus »
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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2013, 04:47:06 PM »
Another power what brings up questions has to be Komachi's distance manipulations. More specifically, how it would be visualized. Like, if you would take a ride on her boat, you wouldn't know that she is using her powers unless you take multiple trips through Sanzu River with her using her powers at different rate. But what if she uses her power on herself and some one sees her doing that? Would it seem like she is teleporting or moving at high speed?

Sagus

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2013, 04:55:59 PM »
That one is a really weird one to picture... the closest I've seen to a representation of it is during one of her spellcards in SWR, where a large purple beam appear somewhere in the field and you become incredibly slow if you enter it (and if you don't escape it after a few seconds you're hit by danmaku). I always assumed that the beam represented her manipulating the distance one has to walk to leave that space, which is why you become so slow when you enter it.
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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2013, 05:07:53 PM »
You know what? I think all the Taoism members has probally the weirest set of powers (if one of lamer ones). I already explained Futo and Tojiko, Miko's pwoer is to hear ten people at once, which isn't a bad ability to a ruler, especially if it means she can tell their desires, but on combat standpoint, yeah, and then there's Seiga. Even though her ability is ability to pass through walls, this doesn't eman she becomes intangible. Hell,she herself doesn't have the ability by her own, she has to use her hairpin to cut holes in surfaces to walk through them. So unless she controls her powers through her hairpin, her power isn't evne her own.

commandercool

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2013, 05:15:57 PM »
You know what? I think all the Taoism members has probally the weirest set of powers (if one of lamer ones). I already explained Futo and Tojiko, Miko's pwoer is to hear ten people at once, which isn't a bad ability to a ruler, especially if it means she can tell their desires, but on combat standpoint, yeah, and then there's Seiga. Even though her ability is ability to pass through walls, this doesn't eman she becomes intangible. Hell,she herself doesn't have the ability by her own, she has to use her hairpin to cut holes in surfaces to walk through them. So unless she controls her powers through her hairpin, her power isn't evne her own.

I've been assuming that Miko's power does actually have combat applications, at least against some opponents. It seems to work sort of like mind reading, so if she's good enough at interpreting the desires of her opponents she can probably use that information to extrapolate things like their weaknesses and fighting style. Still kind of lame compared to Byakuren's "be Superman" power, but it's got a lot of potential.
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Imosa

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2013, 06:34:53 PM »
Why does Miko's power need to have combat applications? It's like being able to multitask talking to 10 people isn't ridiculous already, without the ability to hurt someone. lol, kinda JK, I know this is just and easy avenue of creativity.

I love Komachi's power so I wrote way too many thoughts on them. You can read that here.
Komachi can appear to duplicate herself to some extent. Lets say you were on earth and watching Komachi stand on the surface of the sun (deal with it). Suddenly, Komachi appears next to you. You and Komachi could then watch Komachi on the sun for 8 minutes before she uses her power to appear on earth. That's because the light from the sun, which bounces off of Komachi and travels to earth, takes 8 minutes before you on earth can see it.
Because light is the fastest thing in the universe, the speed of light can also be called the speed limit of information. This is important because while you and Komachi watch Komachi on the sun, any experiment you could think to preform (without magic) would tell you that Komachi is both on the sun, and standing next to. Incidnetly, watching Komachi on the sun might be the only experiment you could preform. Ultimately, as far as you're non-magical self is concerned, Komachi would be making an discontinuous trip through time, 8 minutes into the past.
That thread is pretty much this one, but with some cool conversations already contained.

EDIT: Oh, I guess Faster the Light Travel is kinda a thing though, so maybe that could prove Komachi isn't on the sun in a relativistic sense.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 06:40:47 PM by Imosa »

ToyoRai

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2013, 06:57:05 PM »
@Imosa My mind is full of what after reading both of your posts.
Really, where both of these threads focus on character's abilities, we ain't in this thread to question physics of the powers. Like, I am not going to question Suika's powers over density on physics level, but how she can manipulate density period (wich include population density). We also give our own thoughts and the way we see them, and even give characters powers if any one is interest (especially with PC-98 people)

Ikari

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2013, 06:58:14 PM »
This thread is actually a great idea.

Rumia actually interested me for quite a bit. Her ability to manipulate darkness is something anyone would think "woah, badass" when hearing it, yet she's ridiculous in every way when using that power. (Oh hey I can myself blind!) I think it's the reverse case of most powers in Touhou; While others sound simple and yet, can tap into the philosophical or more complicated interpretation of their powers, Rumia is just a counter to us, creative players. That's right, controlling darkness is actually crappy because darkness isn't even a thing; It's just a lack of light. Rumia can basically remove light, and isn't immune to her own powers in any way. It makes so much sense that it becomes unlogical.

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2013, 07:20:41 PM »
I've been assuming that Miko's power does actually have combat applications, at least against some opponents. It seems to work sort of like mind reading, so if she's good enough at interpreting the desires of her opponents she can probably use that information to extrapolate things like their weaknesses and fighting style. Still kind of lame compared to Byakuren's "be Superman" power, but it's got a lot of potential.
Miko's ability might also be of good use in a fith with, say, a large number of spectators (i.e. Hopeless Masquerade).  Because if she can pick up several people talking at once with her super-sensitive hearing, she may be able to hear something useful, like "Whoa, check it out!  The witch is sneaking up behind the Taoist!"  With this, she may have full awareness of her surroundings during a battle.

Zoriri

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2013, 08:09:24 PM »
The one ability I've never been able to wrap my head around in Yuugi's: Controlling unexplainable phenomena. Seriously, what the hell is that?  ???

Sagus

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2013, 08:17:18 PM »
This thread is actually a great idea.

Rumia actually interested me for quite a bit. Her ability to manipulate darkness is something anyone would think "woah, badass" when hearing it, yet she's ridiculous in every way when using that power. (Oh hey I can myself blind!) I think it's the reverse case of most powers in Touhou; While others sound simple and yet, can tap into the philosophical or more complicated interpretation of their powers, Rumia is just a counter to us, creative players. That's right, controlling darkness is actually crappy because darkness isn't even a thing; It's just a lack of light. Rumia can basically remove light, and isn't immune to her own powers in any way. It makes so much sense that it becomes unlogical.
You know, I'd love to see a story where removing her ribbon would turn her into an incredibly powerful youkai, both in terms of magical and physical strength... but wouldn't change her natural ability at all

Just imagine how much fun people would make of her

it'd be just like Yuuka, only with an even crappier power (hey, at least making flowers bloom doesn't hinder you if you use it)

The one ability I've never been able to wrap my head around in Yuugi's: Controlling unexplainable phenomena. Seriously, what the hell is that?  ???
I'm sure it's a metaphor for something.

I just interpret it as the ability to deny any other charater's power (with the strength of said power determinating how difficult would it be for her to do it). No real basis in canon, but it's the only thing I can think of that soooooooorta fits.
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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2013, 08:47:11 PM »
Can Sanae generate "bad miracles", like some kind of miracle that could kill someone?
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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2013, 09:06:30 PM »
Most likely. If you died by bungee jumping, then a fish jumps in your face, causing you to skyrocket into the blades of a helicopter that had gotten thousands of miles off-course due to a storm, that'd be pretty damn miraculous. Miracles aren't inherently good or bad, just miraculous.

Kaze_Senshi

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2013, 09:48:56 PM »
Why does Miko's power need to have combat applications? It's like being able to multitask talking to 10 people isn't ridiculous already, without the ability to hurt someone. lol, kinda JK, I know this is just and easy avenue of creativity.

I love Komachi's power so I wrote way too many thoughts on them. You can read that here.
Komachi can appear to duplicate herself to some extent. Lets say you were on earth and watching Komachi stand on the surface of the sun (deal with it). Suddenly, Komachi appears next to you. You and Komachi could then watch Komachi on the sun for 8 minutes before she uses her power to appear on earth. That's because the light from the sun, which bounces off of Komachi and travels to earth, takes 8 minutes before you on earth can see it.
Because light is the fastest thing in the universe, the speed of light can also be called the speed limit of information. This is important because while you and Komachi watch Komachi on the sun, any experiment you could think to preform (without magic) would tell you that Komachi is both on the sun, and standing next to. Incidnetly, watching Komachi on the sun might be the only experiment you could preform. Ultimately, as far as you're non-magical self is concerned, Komachi would be making an discontinuous trip through time, 8 minutes into the past.
That thread is pretty much this one, but with some cool conversations already contained.

EDIT: Oh, I guess Faster the Light Travel is kinda a thing though, so maybe that could prove Komachi isn't on the sun in a relativistic sense.
I always thought that Komachi had the ability to manipulate coins :V

Most likely. If you died by bungee jumping, then a fish jumps in your face, causing you to skyrocket into the blades of a helicopter that had gotten thousands of miles off-course due to a storm, that'd be pretty damn miraculous. Miracles aren't inherently good or bad, just miraculous.
Sanae can be a bad girl =o
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Imosa

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2013, 10:13:10 PM »
@Imosa My mind is full of what after reading both of your posts.
Really, where both of these threads focus on character's abilities, we ain't in this thread to question physics of the powers. Like, I am not going to question Suika's powers over density on physics level, but how she can manipulate density period (wich include population density). We also give our own thoughts and the way we see them, and even give characters powers if any one is interest (especially with PC-98 people)
I don't understand. You wanted to know what Komachi's powers were like and I give an explanation of what I think her powers are like. Here people talk about how Miko's power would be used in a fight, and I talk about how Komachi's power can be used for time travel. It just so happens that in order to understand how Komachi's power is used for time travel, you need to know about the speed of light, and a bit about what it means to travel through time.

commandercool

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2013, 10:45:33 PM »
The one ability I've never been able to wrap my head around in Yuugi's: Controlling unexplainable phenomena. Seriously, what the hell is that?  ???

I interpreted it super literally as unexplainable phenomena of the "Oh shit, it's raining boulders!" variety.
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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2013, 10:51:10 PM »
I interpreted it super literally as unexplainable phenomena of the "Oh shit, it's raining boulders!" variety.

There's that way too, I guess. Out of everyone's powers, her's is probably the least understood. Maybe she uses it to be able to weaken youkai (they are the supernatural, so she could just make them weaker). Then again, that doesn't sound particularly like something she would do... I honestly don't know.
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Sagus

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2013, 11:20:46 PM »
Her power isn't even mentioned in SoPM outside of the "ability" part of the basic description (where it's translated as "the ability to cause unexplainable phenomena", so maybe commandercool's onto something). It seems that even Akyuu has no clue about what it does.
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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2013, 11:27:58 PM »
* Drake flips buses


Keine's ability is explained uh somewhere. I can't remember where (EDIT: PMiSS plus supporting material). It is for the most part an ability of illusion.
History, in essence, is the collection of events from the point of view of whoever is writing down these events. The recollection of history is the understanding of these events learned from the history previously written down.
Keine's ability as a hakutaku is that she is the history-writer. She writes down the history of people, places, events, and the affected parties "learn" of this history, and as such believe this is what really happened. However, this doesn't affect their previous knowledge, merely what they will learn. Keine's human form devours history, in that she can remove history that has been written down. Because she transforms every full moon, Keine can reliably delete history and then rewrite it within the span of a month, or write down history and then delete it as she wishes. In IN, she hides the human village's existence by deleting its history in order to defend it from potential threats. By the Extra stage, she rewrites this history, and the human village appears again.

I think it's also clear that this ability doesn't come into play during Spell Card duels. She needs to actually write it down, which iirc is said to be done furiously the one night she can.

Seiga is a hermit. She was previously a human. She uses forbidden arts, and her pin is all that enables her to pass through walls. She has no inherent ability.

I helped write the article on Yuugi's powers for the wiki, so copypaste time.

Anomalies, strength, disorder, and spirits (怪力乱神, kai-ryoku-ran-shin) is a metaphor for unexplainable phenomena that originates from the Analects of Confucius, where one of his disciples said "the Master never talked of anomalies, strength, disorder, or spirits." (子不語怪力亂神) Furthermore, Yuugi's title is "the so-called unexplainable phenomenon".

More accurately, Confucius did not talk about unnatural things (異, strangeness), mysterious powers (勇, courage), things contrary to reason (悖, devious rebellion), and strange things related to god (鬼, fierce god). In other words, strangeness (怪異), courage (勇力), devious rebellion (悖乱), and fierce god (鬼神) are why 怪力乱神 is referred to as "anomalies, strength, disorder, and spirits." It is appropriately unclear what exactly this ability allows Yuugi to do, since the ability itself is a metaphor for things that cannot be explained.

Her very name, Yuugi (勇儀), might have come from the courage (勇力) that is represented as "strength" in "anomalies, strength, disorder, and spirits."
Her title is 話られる怪力乱神, or "the so-called" unexplainable phenomenon/anomaliesstrengthdisetc. This does little in explaining the ability, but it should be clear that her ability is not meant to be an actual ability, merely an additional link to the Confucius thread present throughout her character profile.
Important: She does not actually manipulate or cause unexplained/supernatural phenomena. This was a huge misconception that stemmed from the translation, and was essentially the main reason why the Ability subsection explaining the phrase was created. 怪力乱神を持つ itself just means "to have", "hold" or "possess". It's currently translated as "wield". No other character ability uses this wording, and is why I am going to go object just objected to the translation in the SoPM article.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 02:10:27 PM by Drake »

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commandercool

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2013, 11:44:13 PM »
Keine's ability is explained uh somewhere. I can't remember where. It is for the most part an ability of illusion.
History, in essence, is the collection of events from the point of view of whoever is writing down these events. The recollection of history is the understanding of these events learned from the history previously written down.
Keine's ability as a hakutaku is that she is the history-writer. She writes down the history of people, places, events, and the affected parties "learn" of this history, and as such believe this is what really happened. However, this doesn't affect their previous knowledge, merely what they will learn. Keine's human form devours history, in that she can remove history that has been written down. Because she transforms every full moon, Keine can reliably delete history and then rewrite it within the span of a month, or write down history and then delete it as she wishes. In IN, she hides the human village's existence by deleting its history in order to defend it from potential threats. By the Extra stage, she rewrites this history, and the human village appears again.

Interesting. So it sounds like her abilities are permanent, is that right? I assumed that, at least in her human form, her ability stopped working if she wasn't actively maintaining it. Sounds like that's pretty far off from how it actually is.

Keine: Most powerful ability in Touhou?
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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2013, 11:51:02 PM »
It's a metaphor for people writing down history and other people later learning that history by reading it. While people don't literally read it, I would think the effects are permanent in the sense that the affected party learns of the history and behaves as if it's true, until conflicting information might reveal contradictions and reveal the "truth". You know, like how history works.

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commandercool

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2013, 11:57:14 PM »
It's a metaphor for people writing down history and other people later learning that history by reading it. While people don't literally read it, I would think the effects are permanent in the sense that the affected party learns of the history and behaves as if it's true, until conflicting information might reveal contradictions and reveal the "truth". You know, like how history works.

Sounds about right. And that power in the hands of one person, with unlimited revision credits, seems to beat the pants off of silly ol' miracles or fate any day of the week.

We aren't aware of any other Hakutaku in Gensokyo as far as I know, but somebody had to provide that half of Keine's genes at some point. It's possible her power isn't actually that exclusive after all. That's scary.
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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2013, 12:10:12 AM »
well miracles and fate actually affect reality and don't really have the capacity to be contested so

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Re: Power of the ladies: How do they work?
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2013, 12:11:24 AM »
We aren't aware of any other Hakutaku in Gensokyo as far as I know, but somebody had to provide that half of Keine's genes at some point. It's possible her power isn't actually that exclusive after all. That's scary.

Unrelated to powers discussion, but Keine's therianthropy is implied by Perfect Memento in Strict Sense to be acquired (i.e. cursed, enchanted, having a magic spell cast on them), not hereditary. Hereditary therianthropes assume a full animal form while acquired therianthropes still have a human shape. Article from PMiSS.