Author Topic: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking  (Read 75432 times)

Rikter

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2012, 11:48:01 AM »
You also forget that Zeus is also pretty bad in general with the rest of his kit while tenshi is far from it.

Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2012, 02:59:10 PM »
Im pretty sure youre all mistaken. Erfshakurs best skill is enchant totem how else will he carry the game?

Amraphenson

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2012, 07:52:38 PM »
Tenshi was all sorts of silly before 977.

also Remilia already has Gungnir and Nightless as skills, I'm not quite sure what there is to complain about. And everyone in Soku is fighting in melee, it's a fsking fighting game. A different genre entirely. In terms of WC3 maps, enough already make Remilia melee, and if we make her melee we blur the lines between her and Flan.

Earthshaker does :not: play similarly to Tenshi, that's just a surface comparison. Earthshaker doesn't walk up willynilly with no fears given, since he's squishy. Tenshi just builds straight strength; a generic Earthshaker gets more int items than str. Rightclicking is really an afterthought with Earthshaker after a certain point, while with Tenshi not so much.

Zeus? Don't compare rhapsody to zeus ult lol. that's a silly comparison, and a surface one again. Pure vs magic, usage in fights, as stated by Dormio. Tenshi was one of those heroes that effectively reduced everyone's max HP on the other team. If you reach a certain number, pew. Tenshi just has to back off and zap.

comparing dota to dots is really just...don't do it. Just don't.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 08:02:26 PM by Amratorias »
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CloverNaght

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2012, 09:24:06 PM »
The only stupid thing about Tenshi (before 977) was your ultimate reveals the whole map for EVERY players (i mentioned this on my tenshi remake idea)  both enemy and ally (this issue still exist for later versions, poor tenshi lovers..) I juked  3 heroes who was going to kill me because enemy tenshi uses her ulti, thats just hillarious.
Also i think for the heroes discussion we can talk em on GBA dots thread, since in this thread we gonna discuss about core mechanics, remake suggestion etc just like what hele said.
I think even DotA has some skills that scale now right?
well only really few ones (Dragonus and Centaur, forgot who else) but the fact still there. For the map direction i think every girls should follow their canon figure. However, for the items i think we can have some fanons stuff but with non-ridiculous effects (ex: sukusuku hakutaku as DotA janggo haha)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 09:55:20 PM by AkurouNyan~ »
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CloverNaght

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2012, 09:26:26 PM »
doublepost sry
Behold the power of love instagibbing, ze!!~

Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2012, 05:00:13 AM »
@Tenshi's comparison: I have no idea how you are using Earthshaker, but if you think he is a good hero without blink dagger, then I disagree. There are so many better choices if blink dagger is not a valid item. Even with blink dagger, it isn't like Earthshaker is one of the best. The idea of blink dagger is so that you can stun 3 times in the middle of the group, giving your team ample time to own the opposing team. Also, it lets you actually get to the middle of the group of enemies, which is not going to happen normally.
Tenshi does not have this advantage, she has to walk up and attack with her sword of Divine Justice to get a stun off. If that is so, it comes to hero building, do you want to build her defensively, so she can sometimes pull this off? If so, then she won't have a decent mana pool to use her skills. I don't believe there is an Arcane Boots equivalent in DoTS.

Quote
First of all, why the fuck would you use it in the middle of a team fight? Use it before for some weak initiate, or afterwards for cleanup.

Which is my entire point, this is a strike against her. She essentially has no ultimate during a team fight.

Quote
Also, if you're going to compare Zeus' ultimate to Tenshi's you forget that Zeus' ultimate costs 450 mana to cast at max level, and does much 460 magical damage (aka. much much less than Tanshi).

You compare an INT hero to a STR hero for mana cost skills?

Quote
You also forget that Zeus is also pretty bad in general with the rest of his kit while tenshi is far from it.

Zeus is average. Nothing too impressive, not poor.

Quote
Earthshaker does :not: play similarly to Tenshi, that's just a surface comparison. Earthshaker doesn't walk up willynilly with no fears given, since he's squishy. Tenshi just builds straight strength; a generic Earthshaker gets more int items than str. Rightclicking is really an afterthought with Earthshaker after a certain point, while with Tenshi not so much.

Earthshaker plays SIMILAR in that they both have multiple AoE STUNS. Both need to be in melee range to use one of their AoE stuns. Building strength does not allow you to walk up and beat people. Even if Earthshaker, a STR hero, builds STR, it would not work. This is because the AoE stuns require you to be in melee range, so to be effective, you need to either get there by Force Staff or Blink Dagger or Lothar's Edge.
I don't see how Tenshi is any less squishy than Earthshaker if you get the same items. Tenshi does not have any significant defensive skills.

Quote
also Remilia already has Gungnir and Nightless as skills, I'm not quite sure what there is to complain about. And everyone in Soku is fighting in melee, it's a fsking fighting game. A different genre entirely. In terms of WC3 maps, enough already make Remilia melee, and if we make her melee we blur the lines between her and Flan.

From the WC3 maps I play, Remilia is range. As far as I know, Remilia prefers melee over range, this is shown fairly often enough. Not just in Soku, but her last word in Imperishable Night, in the manga, etc.
If you want to differentiate the two, then have Flandre be range and Remilia be melee. It makes more sense to me, considering their personalities and fighting style.

Dormio Ergo Sum

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #66 on: September 14, 2012, 05:30:16 AM »
@Tenshi's comparison: I have no idea how you are using Earthshaker, but if you think he is a good hero without blink dagger, then I disagree. There are so many better choices if blink dagger is not a valid item. Even with blink dagger, it isn't like Earthshaker is one of the best. The idea of blink dagger is so that you can stun 3 times in the middle of the group, giving your team ample time to own the opposing team. Also, it lets you actually get to the middle of the group of enemies, which is not going to happen normally.
I'm sorry I had to stop to laugh here for a while.
I have no idea how you are using Earthshaker, but if you think Earthshaker is a bad hero without a blink dagger, then I disagree.
No shit a blink dagger into a full combo will wreck the enemy team. He's still a good hero before he gets it. If you don't understand the benefits of a potential 8 second disable on a 15 second cooldown, I have no idea what to say to you.

Tenshi does not have this advantage, she has to walk up and attack with her sword of Divine Justice to get a stun off. If that is so, it comes to hero building, do you want to build her defensively, so she can sometimes pull this off? If so, then she won't have a decent mana pool to use her skills. I don't believe there is an Arcane Boots equivalent in DoTS.
And again, Tenshi plays completely differently to Earthshaker. I have no idea why you would make the comparison in the first place.

You compare an INT hero to a STR hero for mana cost skills?
Yes, because Zeus has a shit pool.

Which is my entire point, this is a strike against her. She essentially has no ultimate during a team fight.
And why does she need one? It's an ultimate for a different purpose. Doesn't make it any better or worse.
I mean, according to your criterion, is Hatate's ultimate shit? It contributes nothing to a teamfight after all.
Like, seriously, how the fuck does having a different purpose make it shit?

Zeus is average. Nothing too impressive, not poor.
Zeus is shit. He is not average, he is far below average. I will fight you if you claim otherwise.

Earthshaker plays SIMILAR in that they both have multiple AoE STUNS. Both need to be in melee range to use one of their AoE stuns. Building strength does not allow you to walk up and beat people. Even if Earthshaker, a STR hero, builds STR, it would not work. This is because the AoE stuns require you to be in melee range, so to be effective, you need to either get there by Force Staff or Blink Dagger or Lothar's Edge.
I don't see how Tenshi is any less squishy than Earthshaker if you get the same items. Tenshi does not have any significant defensive skills.
They're not similar at all.
Tenshi provides tankiness and utility.
Earthshaker provides initiation.
What the fuck?
Tenshi is less squishy than Earthshaker because Earthshaker is forced to build other items, whereas Tenshi can sink about 1000 gold into MP to fix all her MP problems and dump the rest into HP, which happens to cause her other stun to scale.
Not to mention that the DotS defensive items are much stronger than the DotA defensive items.

Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2012, 06:18:41 AM »
Um... can we do the hero comparisons over here please - http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,11428.690.html?

Danke. ._.

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2012, 02:11:20 PM »
Hmm, just discovered this thread now and since everyone is suggesting, I might as well post my Nitori idea on here.

The numbers of course are subject to change and the innate is just something that was in the old DotS, so you can ignore it.

Quote
Nitori stats
Str: 19 + 1.8
Agi: 14 +1.3
Int (M): 27 + 2.9
Health: ?
Mana: ?
Move speed: ?
Model (Wishful thining): On foot with a bag that has robot arms coming out of it
Aspd: ?
Atttack animation: ?
Title: Super Youkai Warhead or Aquatic Engineer

Skills

Innate, Kappa "Exteeeending Aaaaarm"

Effect: For every lvl gained, increases Nitori's attack range by 10

First skill, Optics "Optical Camouflage"

Effect: Turns Nitori sorta-invisible and prevents damage from one attack (Except instant kills) during it's duration
Duration: 8/9/10/11
Cool down: 30/25/20/15 sec
Mana cost: ?

Second skill, Cucumber Missle Barrage

Effect: Bombards a area of 300 with missles for 4 secs.
Damage: 75/100/125/150 dps for 4 secs
AOE: 300
Cast range: 600
Cool down:15 sec
Mana cost: ?

Third skill, Water Sign "Kappa's Flash Flood"

Effect: Launches a missile that lands after a while in a splash of water that deals 60/90/120/150 magic damage and slows for 25/30/35/40% for 4 secs and pushes heroes from the center of the splash 200 distance with a maximum distance of 280 from the center of the splash.
Damage: 60/90/120/150 magic damage
Cast time: 0.75 sec
AOE: 280
Caste range: 650
Cool down: 15 sec
Mana cost: ?

Ult, Super Youkai Warhead

Effect: Launches a homing missle at the target that takes sometime time to activate
Damage: 400/650/900 magic damage
AOE: 325
Move speed: 250/290/330
Unit type: Ward
Health: 400/600/800
Cast time: 1 sec
Activation time: 3 sec
Cast range: 2000
Max range: 3500
Cool down: 90 sec
Mana cost: ?

Note, I thought of this idea a long time ago as a suggestion to the old developers of DotS with the help of ApharmdB, as out of all the Touhou characters on DotS, Nitori was the most far from her canon counterpart what with actually being a Gundam (Model, skills and all), which kinda bothered me so I suggested the idea to Aph to make her more inline with her canon.


Also, ApharmdB, instead of her innate, can you make it so that Nitori is a Melee classification that just has a very far reach? It's a little quirk I feel that just needs to be added.....

Also also, I feel like her ult needs to be faster...Hmm.....


Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #69 on: September 15, 2012, 03:39:24 AM »
@Ran Yakumo: I am not going to reply to hero comparison posts anymore, because we clearly disagree.

In either case, Nitori's extending arm,  I think it may be better to make it an active skill. She would be melee range, maybe 128 or something. And extending arm increases that range up to maybe 700(melee). Her innate should be create a cucumber or something. So she can load it and use it with her other skills. Maybe get some minor bonuses if she has more cucumbers on her? I am unsure if this should be made as a item or just a counter.

Dular

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #70 on: September 15, 2012, 04:12:16 AM »
Want some Yukari skills?  HAVE SOME YUKARI SKILLS!


Yukari Yakumo

Strength   18+1.4
Agility      15+1.3
Intelligence   27+2.9

Damage: 48-50
Armor: 0
Movement: 290
Attack range: 600
Attack Animation: .7/.6
Cast Animation: .2/.4



*Yukari cannot move at any point while casting a barrier spellcard, but can still attack, and has to channel for
1 second to dispel the barrier.  Minus Barrier "Objective Barrier"
*Refer to Aph about Evil SPirits Spiriting Away
*Yukari's barriers are ended if she is silenced, but not stunned.


Barrier "Curse of Dreams and Reality"

Yukari sets up a barrier, causing enemies dreams to become a reality.
Creates illusions of every enemy unit, each doing ??% damage of the
originals damage.  Illusions cannot be targeted, illusions disappear
when Yukari turns off the barrier, and disappear if the enemy leaves
the AoE.

AoE: 750(Centered on Yukari)
Mana cost: 5/4/3/2% max mana per second
Cooldown: 1 second

Level 1: 45% illusion damage
Level 2: 55% illusion damage
Level 3: 65% illusion damage
Level 4: 75% illusion damage


Barrier "Balance of Motion and Stillness"

Yukari sets up a barrier, causing enemies to realize their own
sluggishness.  Enemy girls move much slower, while allied girls
move much faster.

AoE: 750(Centered on Yukari)
Mana cost: 5/4/3/2% max mana per second
Cooldown: 1 second

Level 1: 10% movement speed bonus/reduction
Level 2: 15% movement speed bonus/reduction
Level 3: 20% movement speed bonus/reduction
Level 4: 25% movement speed bonus/reduction



Barrier "Mesh of Light and Darkness"

Yukari sets up a barrier, causing all units to see everything
and nothing.  All allied girls gain additional vision while
enemy girls lose vision.

AoE: 750(Centered on Yukari)
Mana cost: 5/4/3/2% max mana per second
Cooldown: 1 second

Level 1: Allies gain 500 vision, enemies lose 250 vision
Level 2: Allies gain 1000 vision, enemies lose 400 vision
Level 3: Allies gain 1500 vision, enemies lose 550 vision
Level 4: Allies gain flying vision, enemies lose 2500 vision


Evil Spirits "Yukari Yakumo's Spiriting Away"

Yukari gaps away a unit, sealing it away for
a few seconds.  Should an enemy creep be gapped away,
it is permanently gapped, giving Yukari bonus gold
after a 60 second duration.

Targeted
Mana cost: 90/100/110/120
Cooldown: 60 if creep, 15 if otherwise
Cast range: 550

Level 1: Gapped for 1.5 seconds, +15 gold
Level 2: Gapped for 2 seconds, +25 gold
Level 3: Gapped for 2.5 seconds, +35 gold
Level 4: Gapped for 3 seconds, +45 gold


Evil Spirits "Xanadu of straight and Curve"

Yukari enchants an enemy girl, causing them to be
confused about direction.  Should an enemy girl be targeted
with this spell, they will travel in the reverse direction
should they try to move.

Targeted enemy girl
Mana cost: 85/100/115/130
Cooldown: 15 seconds
Cast range: 600

Level 1: Lasts 1.5 seconds
Level 2: Lasts 2.0 seconds
Level 3: Lasts 2.5 seconds
Level 4: Lasts 3.0 seconds


Fantasy Next "Flying Glow Worm's Nest"

Yukari collects herself, then fires several small lasers that scatter
everywhere in an area in front of Yukari for a few seconds.  Each
laser does 15 magic damage.

Channeling, 1 second set-up.  Movement afterwards cancels casting.
Targeted ground, cone AoE
AoE: 50(Laser AoE)/700(distance)/100(Starting AoE)/300(Final AoE)
Fires 20 lasers per second
Missile speed: 1600
Mana cost: 130/140/150/160
Cooldown: 40/35/30/25

Level 1: Lasts 2 seconds
Level 2: Lasts 3 seconds
Level 3: Lasts 4 seconds
Level 4: Lasts 5 seconds



Sinister Spirits "Double Black Death Butterfly"

Yukari lets out a single butterfly, that moves very slowly to
an enemy girl.  When it does reach her, the butterfly violently
explodes, causing massive damage.  Should Yukari cast once more,
the previous butterfly will vanish, and will also vanish should
the targeted girl die.

Targeted enemy girl.
Mana cost: 150/250/350/450
Cooldown: 360/270/180/90
Butterfly moving speed: 150
Cast range: 900

Level 1: 300 damage
Level 2: 450 damage
Level 3: 600 damage
Level 4: 750 damage


Shikigami "Ran Yakumo"

Yukari flings Ran out of a gap, then Ran returns to the gap.
Ran deals damage going towards the target location and back.
Can damage twice.

Targeted ground
Mana cost: 60/70/80/90
Cooldown: 19/17/15/13
Ran missile speed: 500(stops when at targeted point, then returns at same speed)
Area of effect: 150
Casting range: 700

Level 1: 50 damage
Level 2: 75 damage
Level 3: 100 damage
Level 4: 125 damage



"Boundary of Humans and Youkai"

Yukari makes an enemy girl have the weaknesses of the other
race forced upon them, reducing their abilities.
Nothing happens if they are agility.

Targeted enemy girl
Mana cost: 95/105/115/125
Cooldown: 20
Cast range: 500
Duration: 9 seconds

Level 1: -6 str if int, -6 int if str
Level 2: -9 str if int, -9 int if str
Level 3: -12 str if int, -12 int if str
Level 4: -15 str if int, -15 int if str


Barrier "Boundary of Life and Death"

Yukari sets up a barrier, in this area, enemy girls realize
their own mortality, while allies feel the rejuvination of
life.

AoE: 750(Centered on Yukari)
Mana cost: 5/4/3/2% max mana per second
Cooldown: 1 second

Level 1: Enemy girls die if they get below 7% hp, ally girls heal .75% maxhp/sec
Level 2: Enemy girls die if they get below 8% hp, ally girls heal 1% maxhp/sec
Level 3: Enemy girls die if they get below 9% hp, ally girls heal 1.25% maxhp/sec
Level 4: Enemy girls die if they get below 10% hp, ally girls heal 1.5% maxhp/sec


Evil Spirits "Bewitching Butterfly Living in the Zen Temple"

Yukari lets out a butterfly, which is invisible to all enemy units(true-sightable)
Should an enemy girl come within 200 range of the butterfly, it explodes, greatly
reducing attack and movement speed for a few seconds.

Targeted ground
AoE: 200
Mana cost: 30/40/50/60
Vision: 100
Cooldown: 10
Slow Duration: 2.5

Level 1: Max 1 butterfly, -25% movement/attack speed
Level 2: Max 1 butterfly, -30% movement/attack speed
Level 3: Max 2 butterfly, -35% movement/attack speed
Level 4: Max 2 butterfly, -40% movement/attack speed


Border Sign "Quadruple Barrier"

Yukari sets up four barriers in front of herself, greatly
reducing all damage she gets while facing the enemy for four
instances of damage.

Self-Target
Yukari's front is considered 70 degrees from her front.
Mana cost: 100/115/130/145
Cooldown: 19
Duration: 11

Level 1: Reduces damage by 20%
Level 2: Reduces damage by 40%
Level 3: Reduces damage by 60%
Level 4: Reduces damage by 80%


Barrier "Charming Quadruple Barrier"

Yukari sets up a barrier, allowing her allies(not herself)
to negate attacks on occasion.

AoE: 750(Centered on Yukari)
Mana cost: 5/4/3/2% max mana per second
Cooldown: 1 second

Level 1: 5% chance
Level 2: 10% chance
Level 3: 15% chance
Level 4: 20% chance


Shikigami "Chen"

Yukari fires Chen at a target location, dealing a small amount of damage.
Chen only damages once.

Targeted ground
Mana cost: 20/30/40/50
Cooldown: 19/17/15/13
Chen missile speed: 600(stops when at targeted point, then returns at same speed)
Area of effect: 150
Casting range: 1000

Level 1: 25 damage
Level 2: 50 damage
Level 3: 75 damage
Level 4: 100 damage


Border Sign "Boundary between 2D and 3D"

Yukari creates a border around herself and starts up danmaku along
the edge.  The danmaku deals damage to anyone that touches it.

Active(no targeting)
Mana cost per second: 5/8/11/14
Cooldown: 15 seconds
Duration: ~
Danmaku speed: 360
Border AoE: 1000(centered on Yukari)

Level 1: 80 damage
Level 2: 100 damage
Level 3: 120 damage
Level 4: 140 damage


Barrier "Objective Barrier"

Yukari creates a border around herself and starts up 4 danmaku waves along
the edge.  Each danmaku deals damage to anyone that touches it.

Active(no targeting)
Mana cost per second: 20/32/44/56
Cooldown: 15 seconds
Duration: ~
Danmaku speed: 360
Border AoE: 1000(centered on Yukari)

Level 1: 50 damage
Level 2: 60 damage
Level 3: 70 damage
Level 4: 80 damage


Outer Force "Infinite Superspeed Flying Object"

Yukari teleports to any target location on the map, but reveals the location
to everyone.  Requires 2.5 seconds of channeling time.

Target ground
Mana cost: 110

Level 1: Cooldown 120 seconds
Level 2: Cooldown 90 seconds
Level 3: Cooldown 60 seconds
Level 4: Cooldown 30 seconds



Profound Danmaku Bounded Field -Phantasm, Foam and Shadow-

Yukari takes a few seconds to compose herself, then sprays 100
danmaku bullets in an area around her, dealing massive damage
to all units in the area, and knocking them back.
Channeling(2 seconds)
Activate(no targeting)
Mana cost: 200/300/400/500
AoE: 925
Cooldown: 240/220/200/180
Knockback: 300

Level 1: 200 damage
Level 2: 300 damage
Level 3: 400 damage
Level 4: 500 damage


Border Sign "Boundary of Form and Emptiness"

Yukari sets up a barrier, making everyone(not herself)
lose their physical form, allowing them to take extra
magic damage and be slowed.  The status is removed once
they leave the barrier.

AoE: 750(Centered on Yukari)
Cooldown: 1 second

Level 1: 5% max mana per second
Level 2: 4% max mana per second
Level 3: 3% max mana per second
Level 4: 2% max mana per second


Border Sign "Boundary of Wave and Particle"

Yukari sets up a barrier, making all magic spells do physical
damage instead and making all physical spells and attacks do magic damage.

AoE: 750(Centered on Yukari)
Mana cost: 5%/4%/3%/2% max mana per second
Cooldown: 1 second

Level 1: 25% conversion
Level 2: 50% conversion
Level 3: 75% conversion
Level 4: 100% conversion



Shikigami "Ran Yakumo +"

Yukari fires Ran and Chen at the same time, dealing damage.
Ran and Chen do seperate damage, Chen does damage only once,
and Ran does damage both ways.

Target ground

Mana cost: 80/100/120/140
Cooldown: 19/17/15/13
Chen missile speed: 1000
Chen target: 1000
Ran missile speed: 500
Chen target: 500
Casting range: 500

Level 1: 80 damage
Level 2: 100 damage
Level 3: 120 damage
Level 4: 140 damage



Aerial Bait "Laced with Venom"

Yukari targets an area, and after 2.5 seconds, several lasers
strike that spot, the lasers come from any direction from 600 distance away.
Each laser does 70 damage.

Target ground
Mana cost: 90/120/150/180
Cooldown: 25/24/23/22
Casting range: 600

Level 1: 2 lasers will appear
Level 2: 3 lasers will appear
Level 3: 4 lasers will appear
Level 4: 5 lasers will appear


Abandoned Line "Aimless Journey to the Abandoned Station"

After 2 seconds channeling, Yukari summons a train that travels
along the map, dealing damage and knocking up any unit that gets
in its way.  However, the train deals less damage the more it travels.
At the end of its trip, the train goes back into it's gap.  Units can
only get damaged once, but can be hit by the train 3 times.

Target ground
Mana cost: 200/300/400/500
Cooldown: 360/270/180/90
Casting range: global
Train speed: 522
Train duration: Disappears after 5000 distance
Knockup(.52 stun)
Damage decay: 2% per 100 distance

Level 1: 200 damage
Level 2: 350 damage
Level 3: 500 damage
Level 4: 650 damage


Magic Eye "Laplace's Demon"

Yukari sets up several eyes in an area, the eyes cannot be
targeted and are invunlerable.  Whenever Yukari attacks a unit,
the eyes each attack the unit as well, but only if they are close enough.

Target ground
Mana cost: 110/125/140/155
Duration: 15 seconds
Eye attack: 10~10
Eye attack range: 900
Eye vision: 400/400
Eye appearance: 600 AoE centered on targeted area
Cast range: 300

Level 1: 3 eyes
Level 2: 4 eyes
Level 3: 5 eyes
Level 4: 6 eyes
*Eyes only attack should the attack on the enemy unit land.


"Yakumo's Nest"*Ultimate*

Yukari finds her current abilities unfit for the situation, so
she merely changes them with her abilities.

Changes 3 current skills.

Level 1: 400 seconds
Level 2: 330 seconds
Level 3: 260 seconds

Amraphenson

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #71 on: September 15, 2012, 04:24:01 AM »
I'm disagreeing with you too, Star, and I'm finding it very amusing how you're commenting on these balance changes despite being a person who mostly played post 977. Post 977 is the whole reason we're doing this remake; the design decisions after that and even before that were all ones we did not agree with.

anyways, I approve of Yukari.
Sugoiiii~
[23:02] <~Iced> You have sown the seeds of your own destruction Amra.
[23:20] <Stuffman> enjoy your personally crafted hell Amra

FFMaster

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #72 on: September 15, 2012, 05:15:41 AM »
Breaking the hero idea spamming with a few item ideas:

NOTE: NEW IDEAS WILL BE IMBALANCED. JUST JUDGE THE IDEA ITSELF, NOT THE NUMBERS.

Wards: IMO, you should not add wards to the sideshops. Pretty obvious reasons why. Wards were by far the strongest items in Dota, and has had constant nerfs because of it. Adding it to the sideshops just makes it harder for the enemy side to push back by farming inside neuts or whatever.

Early game: Waffles and friends are not going to be consumable anymore, and pretty much everyone on IRC when I was on agreed. Post your reasons if you disagree. Instead, the early game items can be used as base items to build to midgame items. The base stat items and a few other items like metallic bra should remain/be put back in. Remove the stupid Fruit Basket please. I think the fact that 6+ people always got it says it all.

New earlygame item: Metallic Bra + Recipe(250+200?) - Gives the same chance as metallic bra to block, but can block any instance of damage. Useful against dot effects. This item will not upgrade to anything else. Alternatively, could make the chance to block non-physical damage lower if it's too strong.

New earlygame item: Soft Drink + Fruit Knife + Recipe (350+450+400?) - Gives a 5 damage aura. Can be toggled. Early game pushing item. Probably is way too strong lol.

New midgame item: NO IDEA ON BUILDUP - blocks 1 instance of magical damage every 20 seconds. ONLY MAGIC DAMAGE.

New midgame item: NO IDEA ON BUILDUP - targets an enemy hero. all units within 1500 and facing the hero gets a 25% movespeed bonus(direction facing is from -15 degrees to 15 degrees). Doesn't reveal the target, and the target will have a debuff icon. Debuff lasts 8 seconds.

PX

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #73 on: September 15, 2012, 05:44:18 AM »
Wards are very weak in DotS though, or at least so insignificant we never bothered to use them. The map design just ruined the usefulness of wards. Also, has there been any general ideas on what to do with the map?

FFMaster

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #74 on: September 15, 2012, 06:06:56 AM »
True, the map design made wards pretty meh, since there aren't that many cliffs to begin with besides the ones near the lane. You can see inside the enemy base due to lack of uphills, and the forests didn't wall of nearly as much sight.

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2012, 07:59:39 AM »
New earlygame item: Soft Drink + Fruit Knife + Recipe (350+450+400?) - Gives a 5 damage aura. Can be toggled. Early game pushing item. Probably is way too strong lol.

Isn't that basically the same as Ring of Aquila on the aura, except weaker? I guess how strong it depends on practice depends on the strength of the intended creeps, which hasn't been fully concretized yet, I don't think?

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FFMaster

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #76 on: September 15, 2012, 01:34:50 PM »
The idea was to give an item that transitioned from ganks to pushing easily. Mana regen for spells to gank, then toggle the damage aura from heroes only to all units to give more pushing power. If the creeps are any way similar to dota, then it would be a 25% increase in damage for the creeps, which is too high. But dots scaling was lol, so I assumed old scaling.

Midgame Item: +10 Int Item, +Mana Item, Recipe(expecting about 3k gold total) - activate to regain all mana used in the past 3 seconds. The gain happens over 10 seconds at a constant rate. Dispelled on any damage. Betting it will be too strong if implemented as is, regardless of the current balance of the map. The idea behind this is for mages to regain mana after ganks or major teamfights, but not during the fight.

Rikter

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #77 on: September 15, 2012, 02:56:40 PM »
I said this earlier to aph on IRC via query but Flute should probably be adjusted to an actually bought midgame item but there were some concerns about that.

Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2012, 08:51:04 AM »
Quote
I'm disagreeing with you too, Star, and I'm finding it very amusing how you're commenting on these balance changes despite being a person who mostly played post 977. Post 977 is the whole reason we're doing this remake; the design decisions after that and even before that were all ones we did not agree with.

I don't remember ever saying I played mostly after 977. Please do not make any false assumptions. I rather not make any more comments on this, so that is all I will say to your response.

Dormio Ergo Sum

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2012, 08:58:26 AM »
I don't remember ever saying I played mostly after 977. Please do not make any false assumptions. I rather not make any more comments on this, so that is all I will say to your response.
I have never seen Tenshi pre-tacitus days, so I don't know how she works back then.
Keep digging...

Amraphenson

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #80 on: September 16, 2012, 10:50:10 AM »
Couldn't we just make Flute into drum?

also I realised old Marisa, way back in 949 and before, was doing Morph's eth-blade combo before ethblade even existed. Dash in, ethereal, nuke, instagib, leave.
my mind is blown.

well, so was pugna, really. without the dash in.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 10:53:01 AM by Amratorias »
Sugoiiii~
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[23:20] <Stuffman> enjoy your personally crafted hell Amra

Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2012, 11:30:52 AM »
Orz keep it civil guys. This thread is for discussion and suggestions about the map in development instead of the old map.

@Starxsword: I do need to state first though, that I'm not intending to make all the same goofy design decisions that the original map made post-977. A lot of things sound like they'd be nice to have - active/passive 2-in-1 skills, innates, a bazillion items, skills that have a craptonne of effects, but they don't work out so well in actual play to bring about any sort of gameplay depth or strategy or even the character's canon traits. 977 did get some stuff right (e.g. 5v5, which makes supports somewhat more valuable), but for the most part, oddball decisions like giving everyone an innate and  putting in a tonne of new items that seemed like "let's make everyone's skills into items" and having everything scale just made the map more bland. That's why for this map, I have no intention of putting in a vamp item. Skill-wise, Marisa's 4 simple skills have a far greater impact than say, all of Koishi's and Daiyousei's. But the biggest reason why I'm doing this is because the code in the old map has gotten so.... bad (for the lack of a better word), that it's no longer possible to salvage it without a complete re-write. Those on IRC might have occasionally seen me ranting away at how the map was coded and it's really no wonder that the thing lags to hell on computers that can run DotA just fine at even 30fps.

If anyone wonders why the new maps look more sterile, it's because all fog and weather effects were removed - Moriya no longer has autumn leaves falling, Hakurei no longer has sunshine, the faint yellow fog across the map, everything was removed so that people could adjust the camera all the time. Well I might have a solution for that with a new timer/local fog calculation system, but that needs stability testing first.

Anyone wanting to check out the creep scaling / spawning system now can check the alpha map on Tewi. Future plans will include doubling or tripling the interval between creep upgrades (it's currently set to 1 min per upgrade, up to a max of 30 for testing).
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 11:58:46 AM by ApharmdB »

FFMaster

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #82 on: September 16, 2012, 11:58:30 AM »
What about odd designs like Kaguya, who had perma reincarnation? Sure it was strong as fuck, but it fit the character at least.

Also, I'm assuming the scaling of the creeps will be a lot more gradual now? What about wave size increases?

Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #83 on: September 16, 2012, 12:14:05 PM »
I rather liked pre-977 Kaguya. She had a very different support game from most heros and could really screw over teams who don't plan for her. Her reincarnation was very strong yeah, but it was far from invincible against someone who could harass her early game. IIRC if you managed to force her to reincarnate just once early on, e.g. before she hits lvl 3, you'd have set her game so far back that unless she's a pro-spinner and had her teammates assist her in ganking other heros to keep them off her back, she might find it night impossible to get back into the game. Heros like Rin who have ranged summons, or a fast melee hero with the good girl card, were very very good at doing that.

Creep scaling, well I've put in some numbers, though I was too sleepy to remember what I actually wrote. I fast-forwarded their scaling to once a minute instead of the intended once every 3 minutes or so for testing. Wave size increase is tweakable via a game constant - currently at about 1 hour in, you'll have 6 melee creeps and 2 ranged creeps spawning, and 2 siege creeps every other wave. Performance considerations make it hard to push the number of melee creeps to 7, and I don't actually see a point in doing so anyway. It's probably better to give the creeps another 5 levels of upgrades instead of adding so many creeps. 1 hour into the game (I went afk) and my fps would drop from the initial 64 to 35 whenever I viewed a lane with something like 30+ creeps clashing at once together with the 2456772856378 power items (those particle effects add up!)

Oh yeah, I'm thinking of making the power items heal some minor hp for str heros, mp for int heros and provide a temp armour boost for agility heros upon picking them up, in addition to the +1 damage which I'm thinking of capping at +20 instead of +30 like in the old map. This is in lieu of adding to their "main stat" which would mean +30 str for strength heros last time which gave a craptonne of bonus hp.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 12:16:27 PM by ApharmdB »

Pesco

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #84 on: September 16, 2012, 12:27:22 PM »
Make Power items disappear if they haven't been picked up for a minute or so?

Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #85 on: September 16, 2012, 03:49:49 PM »
Yes, in fact, probably after 20 seconds. Just tested a 50 minute long game with Dular and daaaamn was there a lot of shiny things on the ground.

Amraphenson

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #86 on: September 16, 2012, 07:32:45 PM »
I was thinking maybe you could include an auto-collect if anyone gets a double/triple/quad/rampage, with increasing ranges for the auto-collect depending on what you just got. And killing someone on a spree or greater also induces auto collect, including any P the victim may have dropped, so we get something Touhou like.
Sugoiiii~
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FFMaster

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #87 on: September 16, 2012, 09:57:15 PM »
Just tested the map without model pack =) It's fun when you can't click on your own hero.

Can you colour code the ping command?

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2012, 08:28:24 AM »
Orz I kinda want Renko's playstyle to remain to be as it is now. She can do anything and can build into anything, and as such is one of the most diverse girls in the game and brings a lot to the plate. Except pushing power. We have Orin, Utsuho, Yuuka, Lily, Kanako team for that :V
-

Renko
Agi + Str Hybrid

Innate: 'Singularity'
Adds +7 Agi and gives a +7 mana regen with every spell used, Stacks up to 7 times, both agi and mana regen. Lasts 7 seconds.


1)Ultraviolet 'Rayleigh?Jeans Catastrophe'
   1) Deals AoE damage around self(Renko can deny herself with this skill. Does not damage allies)
   2) Adds Armor around self(Allies + self)
   3) Stuns around self
   4) Adds Magic Resistance around self(Allies + self)

2)String Theory 'Euler's Formula'
   1) Does damage and drains stats from enemy girls hit
   2) Stuns in a line
   3) Lower enemy attack and movement speed
   4) Recover some damage done as mana
 
3)Spacetime 'Schwarzschild Wormhole'
   1) Adds Lifesteal
   2) Adds attack speed
   3) Teleports to nearest enemy girl
   4) Adds Attack Damage

4)Unification 'Super Physicist'  (Ultimate)
   1) Ultimate implodes after it is used up
   2) Adds +50% skill damage and duration
   3) Lasts longer
   4) Chance to critical

Uncertainty 'Quantum Mechanics'  (Is learnt with Ultimate, passive)
When all spells are on cooldown, adds 100% base damage for one hit.
When Renko has not enough mana to cast anything, increases movement speed by 10%.
If Renko dies while she has mana to cast spells and they are not on cooldown, she deals 100% her attack damage in a 300 aoe around herself.
-

To be honest I think the Ulti-passive is a little too much, but tell me what I can do to improve?
Orz
Also this is just a rough idea. I'll do a detailed one soon.

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Pesco

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2012, 11:03:40 AM »
You must have missed that part where we said no innates. Nevermind that the numbers you just suggested are stupidly overpowered.