Koakuma's Writer's Parlour ~ Have some tea and discuss fiction and writing here!

[Dead Princess Sakana]

There's an actual limit on posting times, as opposed to the usual nekomancery etiquette or the CPCM? Either way, that's good to hear, considering that I really need to put more shorts on the RSS...

I think you got that wrong. The 14-days-rule *is* the necromancy etiquette for the rest of the boards, but there is no rules on thread-necro for PSL, AAA and danmakufu projects, exactly because taking over two weeks before something new is posted is normal there.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

Oh, okay, got it. I wasn't clear on that part.

[capt. h]

Well, I was working on one of my stories, when Iced mentioned:

Er...  Your writing seems very four komaish at best.

So I thought about it, and I agreed with him. I decided to leave Shoot the Moon behind and try to write less 4-komaish. Decided to ask E-Nazrin to help me edit, did a lot more detail. I posted the most recent chapter, and well...

Wow, this was super funny before and it just got all super serious. And what happened to poor Cirno? She's just a puddle now.

The problem is that I agree with both criticisms. So now I'm conflicted. I'm not really sure what direction I should take my stories to be good, to make them better, and to be better at this.

[FinnKaenbyou]

So, I'm considering trying my hand at submitting some short stories to journals, but frankly I don't have a clue how to actually go about it. Where to publish, what to write, who to aim for...anyone on PSL have experience with it?

[Yuyuko Yakumo]

Well, I was working on one of my stories, when Iced mentioned:

So I thought about it, and I agreed with him. I decided to leave Shoot the Moon behind and try to write less 4-komaish. Decided to ask E-Nazrin to help me edit, did a lot more detail. I posted the most recent chapter, and well...

The problem is that I agree with both criticisms. So now I'm conflicted. I'm not really sure what direction I should take my stories to be good, to make them better, and to be better at this.

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it seem like it's bad without humor. It was just a really sudden change seeing it go from light-hearted and silly to something dark and serious. My suggestion, though easier said than done, is to try to find a middle ground. If you're going for that seriousness, then split up those dark plot points with moments of light humor, like you were doing before.

[Iced Fairy]

Note that when I said 4-komaish I was speaking not just about the humor, but about the flow.

[capt. h]

Note that when I said 4-komaish I was speaking not just about the humor, but about the flow.

I noticed. I wrote the chapter completely differently because I wanted to work on the flow.

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it seem like it's bad without humor. It was just a really sudden change seeing it go from light-hearted and silly to something dark and serious. My suggestion, though easier said than done, is to try to find a middle ground. If you're going for that seriousness, then split up those dark plot points with moments of light humor, like you were doing before.

Don't worry. The tone change isn't permanent. I think I'll keep the new flow, but I'm not going to make every chapter into a ghost story, and I happen to like the humor. Keep in mind though, that I agree; the tone change is very jarring, whether or not it's good without humor.

I think I need to continue having an actual plot. Not a dark plot, but a plot that can be taken seriously. I'm probably going to make it funny at the same time. Though I'm a little worried about sabotaging my own plot with humor.

[Tired/Warm]

Hello!

Ah, I've been lurking for some time. I'm kind of interested in maybe posting some of my writing up here from time to time, but can't seem to find a clear guideline on length allowed, or what all can be in a story? I'm not so worried about outright gore or sexuality or anything, but it really never hurts to double-check this things, especially in a case like myself. So, er, I thought I'd ask.  :blush: Closed circle loop, yegads! I've also been tempted to incorporate visual or musical effects into my work... But am too lazy and|or without time to learn onscripter. I'm sure there's a message in their, somewhere, ehehe. Any recommendations on that? Well, I suppose that'll be all. Thanks!

[Esifex]

We've got a few NSFW pieces here, and as long as its not over-the-top and taken to an extreme, pretty much anything goes, so long as it's not an eyesore to read. Even if it's not Touhou related, it's welcome here, but be warned - this IS primarily a Touhou forum. Don't expect a lot of interest in non-Touhou works.

If you want to post a story with sexually explicit scenes in it, just mark it in the Subject line with the {NSFW} prefix.

[Tired/Warm]

Ah, thankee! Well, in that case, I'll say with cheerfulness that my stuff should be good to go here! I'm all about subtle imagery - or what I *think* is subtle imagery, but turns out to be about as subtle as a jackhammer. But hey, so long as there is a place for my hackishness, I'd be honored and pleased to be here! 

[Iced Fairy]

This just hit me, and I'm kinda fuzzy on it, but I figured I'd post it while it was fresh in my mind.

I've often said that newer writers should probably work on shorts, and for that matter that shorts are my favorite type of writing.  I've had several reasons for the first, but now I think I know why I like shorts so much.  They stick in the mind better then longer stories.

Why would I say that?  Well think on this, we're all Touhou fans.  What's the longest official piece of writing that involves your favorite Touhou character?  Have you even read that writing?  How long is the average doujin in terms of words?

As you can see, a small number of words can create a very memorable effect.  I could probably recite "Exiles" or "Ramadan" from the Sandman to a passable degree, and they imediately pop to mind whenever I think about writing stories about stories or dreams.  In a longer story the key themes might get caught in the plot, or get glossed over.

For that matter short stories and factoids tend to break down into seeds of stories quicker.  Every time my literature teacher throws out a writing technique or narrative concept I find myself with a need to write it.  Similarly looking up Laevatein for something completely unrelated reminded me that Loki kills and dies to the Rainbow Bridgekeeper Heimdell, something that's influenced my concept of Meiling and Flandre's relationship ever since.

That's not to say a longer story can't move someone, far from it.  But I think a lot of people get caught up in their epic views of long stories and forget how a simple 5-10 pages can touch someones heart.  Or at least give them something that lingers in the back of their mind.

And I'm rambling.   :ohdear:  Ah, well it just struck me for some reason today.

[Tired/Warm]

I like that view a lot. My writing is in journals and pieces of paper scattered around my room like some kind of creepy nest, ehehehe- but, seriously, most of my work is around that short, and part of the joy I find from it is finding ways to tie things together; this also goes for my longer works, but there is something magical about reading a well-loved story, perhaps five to ten pages long, noting the tenderness in the way it's been put together - and then finding continuity with something else. Or perhaps it's my love of connections and serendipity speaking...

Anyway, short stories tend to bear a stigma - they're shorter, so they must be 'easier' to produce (in addition, the idea that something easier to write is synonymous with worse, a bizarre form of mental sadomasochism.) And while that can be true, the best short stories are built from the love of the writer and the characters, which is often challenging to capture - but for writers of all skills and tempers, is amazingly satisfying to put to paper. It's like coming home to an old friend whose put the kettle on, or smelling fresh-baked bread, or some emotion unique to that writer's sense of happiness. Anyway, rambling - but I couldn't agree more.

[capt. h]

I'll be honest: if a story is good, I want it to be long. If you engage me in a story, make me fall in love with the plot and the characters, and end it after ten pages, then I'll miss seeing those characters in action almost immediately (for me, the characters makes the story). I'll want to read on as soon as possible, and to see stories cut off so soon is a little sad when they're good. The better the story, the more disappointed I'll be when it ends.

[Bias Bus]

I've actually thought about this for a while and found that shorts might be the best ways for me to write a story. Mostly in part due to how absolutely, fucking retarded I am to keeping my own stories updated at a steady pace. With a short story, I can just pop one out and just be done with it and not have to be at my own throat forcing myself to write another update. After all, my favorite author had alot of short stories~

I dunno, I hardly write enough to have an opinion anyhow, so meh.

[Tamashii Kanjou]

To me, I'd say both are just as good as each other. In fact, with how I tend to do things (and the amount of ideas I spam in my notebooks) I write both for specific reasons.

For me, I'll go with this thing I tend to do. When I look at my plans, I make a note of:

what characters are involved
how many characters are involved
who it centres round
what the plot is

From there, I know whether to make it a short or a pretty long story. A story that involves less than 5 normally results in me making it a short story. However, if it focuses on less than five, but the five aren't together, I could be swayed to writing it some what longer. At the end of the day, it really depends on what you have in front of you.

On the other hand, I tend to write longer stories more often and, like most people, do struggle with keeping it all updated. However, I always come across moments where connections between my stories are sort of left hanging. This isn't intentional; it just happens. This is normally when short stories come into play (when I'm not doing them for contests and other stuff.) If I do a short story to tie up the ends of one story and lead it on to the start of the next, my mind often tells me that 'it's not as important since it's only a short.' But I know that isn't true since I find that events that happen in the shorts aren't spread out between chapters. This means that I feel like I can write as much detail about that event than I could in longer stories. (Unfortunately, I'm one of those that has to spread longer scenes across chapters for the sheer case of my mind won't allow it any other way in a long story.) Because of that, in my opinion, it allows me to take the reader along with me, rather than leaving them waiting mid-way through. It's good to do, but not every time.

Well, that's my opinion on the whole thing. As I said, I use each in a nice balance and wouldn't write any other way. ^^

[Orphea.Russ]

Okay, so, first things first, hello everyone. I'm sort of new here and such. But, to the main point; I've been itching to write something lately, and I think I wanna' do a Touhou fanfic. Problem is I have issues with writing mainly because the -first- time I tried writing a fanfic in general, it turned out badly. I have one or two ideas in mind, but both of them would be self-inserts or OCs, and I have very little confidence in my ability to not screw it up. In other words, I think I'm asking:
A) Whether a self-insert fanfic is alright,
B) For a bit of help on how not to mess up this time (last time I failed because I have a habit of making stuff really short),
C) If there's a way that I could somehow make myself more confident that I can indeed pull this off right.
AndthiswouldbemehittingthesubmitbuttonbeforeIgettoonervousaboutpostingandchangemymindentirely.

[Tengukami]

A) Whether a self-insert fanfic is alright,

Sure it would be. What puts people off about self-inserts are when a writer depicts himself as being somehow unbelievably lucky or overpowered, e.g., "Reimu's eyes fell upon my rippling physique, her eyes filled with desire. I worried for a moment about Marisa getting jealous, but I'm a free agent, baby. That's just how I roll" would be an example of a poor self-insert (unless you were trying to be ironic). A good self-insert amounts to you just being yourself; a human, flawed, believable character.

B) For a bit of help on how not to mess up this time (last time I failed because I have a habit of making stuff really short),

"How can I write better?" is a pretty broad question, but the general rule to getting better at writing is, in my opinion, two-fold: keep reading good writing, and keep writing. Also learn to let other people read it, encourage their constructive criticism, and actually take what they say to heart.

C) If there's a way that I could somehow make myself more confident that I can indeed pull this off right.

Confidence brings on good writing, to be sure. I think that in the end, an artist creates to please themselves primarily, and as you write you should be thinking in terms of what sort of story appeals to you. If you like writing short comedies most of all, then chances are your short comedies are going to be your strongest pieces. The encouragement of the community here will also help you gain more confidence.

Criticism and the fear thereof also tends to poke holes in a writer's confidence. When you receive criticism, you can't let it shake you emotionally. Rather, step back, as if you were a friend of yours reading your story and your critic's remarks, and try to assess as rationally as possible how accurate the criticisms are. If they have merit, they will help you improve as a writer, and if they don't have merit, well, then you don't need to be concerned about them at all. So it's win-win, really.

[CrowCakes]

A) It is, although I've been seeing a lot of these kinds of stories pop up. You have to be careful not to set your readers off, like what the other poster said.
B) Sometimes, short stuff are good. They just need to catch the attention of readers quickly to make up for the length.
C) I got nothing. Do what ZUN did; he just made the games so he could enjoy them. So write something you'll enjoy! And if you still think you're not going to execute it properly, ask for the advice of others. Get an editor.

why did I even post my advice sucks

[Orphea.Russ]

Sure it would be. What puts people off about self-inserts are when a writer depicts himself as being somehow unbelievably lucky or overpowered, e.g., "Reimu's eyes fell upon my rippling physique, her eyes filled with desire. I worried for a moment about Marisa getting jealous, but I'm a free agent, baby. That's just how I roll" would be an example of a poor self-insert (unless you were trying to be ironic). A good self-insert amounts to you just being yourself; a human, flawed, believable character.

A) It is, although I've been seeing a lot of these kinds of stories pop up. You have to be careful not to set your readers off, like what the other poster said.

Hah. If anything I'd probably depict myself as having the worst luck anyone could possibly have (probably because, often times, I feel like I do), and me overpowered would.. Yeah, no, I can't see that. I personally believe I'm a walking construct of flaws and bad luck. Most of the time at least. >>

"How can I write better?" is a pretty broad question, but the general rule to getting better at writing is, in my opinion, two-fold: keep reading good writing, and keep writing. Also learn to let other people read it, encourage their constructive criticism, and actually take what they say to heart.

B) Sometimes, short stuff are good. They just need to catch the attention of readers quickly to make up for the length.

I think it's partly that I'm both used to seeing that the well-liked stories have chapters that are huge, and yet I sit down and write a chapter and it turns out to be two or three paragraphs.

Confidence brings on good writing, to be sure. I think that in the end, an artist creates to please themselves primarily, and as you write you should be thinking in terms of what sort of story appeals to you. If you like writing short comedies most of all, then chances are your short comedies are going to be your strongest pieces. The encouragement of the community here will also help you gain more confidence.

Criticism and the fear thereof also tends to poke holes in a writer's confidence. When you receive criticism, you can't let it shake you emotionally. Rather, step back, as if you were a friend of yours reading your story and your critic's remarks, and try to assess as rationally as possible how accurate the criticisms are. If they have merit, they will help you improve as a writer, and if they don't have merit, well, then you don't need to be concerned about them at all. So it's win-win, really.

C) I got nothing. Do what ZUN did; he just made the games so he could enjoy them. So write something you'll enjoy! And if you still think you're not going to execute it properly, ask for the advice of others. Get an editor.

Confidence... Is... Something I lack in many, many occasions. What little I have tends to be unhelpful, most of the time.
On criticism... I don't have much to say other than I'm very bad at understanding what the person means. Sometimes I'll take it the right way and sometimes I won't, I'm sort of weird like that.
As for enjoying it, I find it hard to take enjoyment in things I know (whether perceived or no) I'm bad at. Which ties into the whole confidence thing. Which ties into why the heck I haven't written anything yet.

But now I have to ask -more- questions. Namely, whether I'm planning on dropping myself into Gensokyo, or whether I plan on meeting a character here in this 'outside world'. Speaking of which, I dunno who I'd drop in. Probably Mokou though... Or... Yeah, I dunno. Stupid indecisiveness.
Also on an unrelated note, this is the longest post I've written in my life. Go me. >>;;

[CrowCakes]

As for enjoying it, I find it hard to take enjoyment in things I know (whether perceived or no) I'm bad at. Which ties into the whole confidence thing. Which ties into why the heck I haven't written anything yet.

I think I got something. Maybe you could think of things you want but couldn't possibly do and tie this ambition to the Touhou-verse so that you can make a plot out of it. It doesn't have to be you, mind you; you could use anyone else like an OC or an already existing character in the Touhou canon.

For example, if I had the ambition of being better than everyone around me (a very wild dream), I could write about a youkai (say, Wriggle) who wants to become the strongest youkai of the forest she lives in, and we have to remember that powerful youkai can be found in so many places in Gensokyo, including the said forest.  Since it's something you also want to do, maybe the things you want to write will come more easily to you, because you know you can relate to it.

[Orphea.Russ]

I think I got something. Maybe you could think of things you want but couldn't possibly do and tie this ambition to the Touhou-verse so that you can make a plot out of it. It doesn't have to be you, mind you; you could use anyone else like an OC or an already existing character in the Touhou canon.

My first idea, the one where I drop a character into the outside world, was actually spawned out of a dream I had where I ended up with a sick Mokou staying in my house. It didn't really make sense to me either. >>
The -other- idea, was simply to drop me into Gensokyo and go from there. I dunno what the heck I'd be doing. I'm not sure which idea I want to do, or what character, for the first one.

[CrowCakes]

For that other idea, well, I had that problem in my first (and scrapped) story, too. Then I had to think of a goal my OC wanted to reach for my current story. There always has to be a goal, or else, why is your character doing the things he's doing? 

[Orphea.Russ]

Yeah, that tends to be how I just hit a brick wall. I run out of ideas to use, and I can't think of any more, and so it kinda' just... Dies, really. If I went with the first idea I'd have a lot to do, particularly since I know much more about here than there. Plus, then I can make whoever I've got with me play games~

[Iced Fairy]

Hrm, the danger of OCs and the danger of wish fulfillment stories kinda overlap, in that in order to reach a goal a young writer will often screw up plot, flow or character in the process.  This is especially true when you're doing a self insert wish fulfillment story.

The problem of course is it's hard to start writing if you don't want to write something.  I could suggest seeing if you could write a story about Reimu and Marisa sitting down to tea as a good practice exercies, but it'd be a sucky exercise if you didn't like the idea.

So I think the best advice I can give you is think out where you want to go, read some good material in similar vein (I always suggest Sandman for Touhou work) and then take a stab at it.

[Orphea.Russ]

i dunno about you guys but i won't want to read another "outsider lands in gensokyo" story, it's predictable as hell and most of the time it's a masturbatory fantasy

if you're really intent on writing such a story, think about what your character would offer gensokyo instead of a grand tour of gensokyo through yet another outsider's perspective. slice of life is fine but cute girls doing cute things loses its appeal. write a story with plot in mind first and then use the characters as you see fit, not the other way round

Honestly, I don't think I'd have much to offer Gensokyo, aside from maybe my ability to paint things (I'm not particularly patient with it, but I do well enough), or maybe building stuff. 'Sides, I dunno what I'd do in Gensokyo anyways~

Hrm, the danger of OCs and the danger of wish fulfillment stories kinda overlap, in that in order to reach a goal a young writer will often screw up plot, flow or character in the process.  This is especially true when you're doing a self insert wish fulfillment story.

The problem of course is it's hard to start writing if you don't want to write something.  I could suggest seeing if you could write a story about Reimu and Marisa sitting down to tea as a good practice exercies, but it'd be a sucky exercise if you didn't like the idea.

So I think the best advice I can give you is think out where you want to go, read some good material in similar vein (I always suggest Sandman for Touhou work) and then take a stab at it.

Wish fulfillment isn't really my goal as far as I know, although admittedly, having someone from Gensokyo come over to visit (in any way) would be pretty freaking awesome. I do rather like the idea of a freeform plot, though, where I just write out whatever I want until it comes to a suitable stopping point (and then maybe continuing it -anyway-, maybe tying idea 1 and idea 2 together?). As for not wanting to write it, I -do- want to write something, and it may as well be Touhou since that's the only thing I've touched recently, I'm just afraid it'll be received poorly because I did something wrong. Though, that's a constant no matter what I'm doing, really.

[CrowCakes]

For the second part of your post, I suggest you read CS's short stories. There kinda like that.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

If you really want to do an "outsider enters Gensokyo" story, just use Renko and Maribel, and come up with your own spin on the whole "what the hell is Yukari's connection with Maribel, anyway?" deal. And you don't even have have to make up your own characters!

I've been writing an article about OCs and why they're disliked, and how to do OCs well. Now I'll probably also have to devote a section to self-inserts, as well; my recommendation is, don't do it. I have to echo other peoples' advice here, use a "not based on the author" OC or a canon-character.

[[K]KoaMeow]

That or make OCs who is born in Gensokyo instead. I did that with Infiltrator.

[FinnKaenbyou]

The first rule of having an OC in a fic is to ensure that other characters exist. Your OC is an addition, not the be-all-and-end-all of the story.

Self-inserts are a dangerous territory, because there are some very bad ones in two distinct flavours - the 'I'm fantastic at everything' character, and the 'I'm not actually good at anything but everyone's still paying attention to me' character.

Put simply, you want your character to be able to offer something to the group. A new viewpoint, a new personality, a new set of strengths and weaknesses. But if someone's the best at something you'd better have a DAMN good reason for your character to be better. For example, if you want to make a character who's a better swordsman than Youmu, he'd better have decades of intense training under his belt. He can't just be 'talented'.

If you want an otherwise ordinary human being in Gensokyo, it really isn't particularly viable - being a normal guy surrounded by superpowered girls means your character will either be overshadowed by the original cast or get more attention than he's due.

So in short, Touhou isn't a very good universe for self-insert humans. Youkai are probably a much better choice in terms of constructing an interesting story, because they give you a lot more power and potential to work with. Again, this power does have to be used responsibly, so don't make characters that are TOO amazing. Flaws build a character as much as strengths do, so strong characters typically have both.

[Orphea.Russ]

For the second part of your post, I suggest you read CS's short stories. There kinda like that.

CS? Who's that?

If you really want to do an "outsider enters Gensokyo" story, just use Renko and Maribel, and come up with your own spin on the whole "what the hell is Yukari's connection with Maribel, anyway?" deal. And you don't even have have to make up your own characters!

I've been writing an article about OCs and why they're disliked, and how to do OCs well. Now I'll probably also have to devote a section to self-inserts, as well; my recommendation is, don't do it. I have to echo other peoples' advice here, use a "not based on the author" OC or a canon-character.

I prefer to use OCs because then I know exactly how they're going to act and such. I'm not good at doing that with canon characters, particularly with Touhou since I don't have a whole lot to go on.
...That said, now I can just use a Gensokyo OC instead of a canon character and plop her into the outside world, can't I?

That or make OCs who is born in Gensokyo instead. I did that with Infiltrator.

I might end up doing that, I think.

The first rule of having an OC in a fic is to ensure that other characters exist. Your OC is an addition, not the be-all-and-end-all of the story.

Self-inserts are a dangerous territory, because there are some very bad ones in two distinct flavours - the 'I'm fantastic at everything' character, and the 'I'm not actually good at anything but everyone's still paying attention to me' character.

Put simply, you want your character to be able to offer something to the group. A new viewpoint, a new personality, a new set of strengths and weaknesses. But if someone's the best at something you'd better have a DAMN good reason for your character to be better. For example, if you want to make a character who's a better swordsman than Youmu, he'd better have decades of intense training under his belt. He can't just be 'talented'.

If you want an otherwise ordinary human being in Gensokyo, it really isn't particularly viable - being a normal guy surrounded by superpowered girls means your character will either be overshadowed by the original cast or get more attention than he's due.

So in short, Touhou isn't a very good universe for self-insert humans. Youkai are probably a much better choice in terms of constructing an interesting story, because they give you a lot more power and potential to work with. Again, this power does have to be used responsibly, so don't make characters that are TOO amazing. Flaws build a character as much as strengths do, so strong characters typically have both.

I have no intentions of going to either extreme. I have no (positive) illusions as to my skills, but I'm not horrible at -everything-. I'm definitely not going to be a match for even an underpowered youkai, in my opinion. I think the only thing I'd ever beat -anybody- at is maybe a card game. Maybe not even then. Though to be honest, I didn't really plan on writing that much fighting, at least for a while... But yeah, a Youkai OC would likely fit in better (though I think it might still be a self-insert in a way), if I knew what her abilities were. I have trouble making overpowered characters, to be honest. I could make a god character and still make him beatable by a human. I've done it once. I think it's harder for me to think of strengths than flaws, being the person that I am, but I can definitely try.
...Kay, hopefully I wrote that right and I'm not bouncing all over the place.