Author Topic: Koakuma's Writer's Parlour ~ Have some tea and discuss fiction and writing here!  (Read 226434 times)

Bias Bus

  • It's unpleasent
  • *
  • if you're better than me
Well.....Okay....I've finally started to crack down and write Touhou fanfiction, but I have one really big question: How do you write fics with huge amounts of characters?

As anybody who witnessed my epic fail fall to forum laughing stock can attest to, I use OC's in my Touhou fanfic. I use a lot of OC's.

This is where I hit the wall; I love huge casts, but how the hell do I write 50+ girls and 45+ guys into a coherent story, and still show off all their personalities and have good character development (The OC's more than the Touhou's)? The fact that my fanfic is basically the Touhou version of a sitcom only slightly alliviates the problem, as I wish to have second half be more serious and have more character development (while still remaining funny). These are things I cant skimp on; I want every Canon-OC couple to recieve the same amount of character developement.



...Well that was a mouthful.


-Chagen46
You don't.

You choose which ones you want to appear in said story and in what order. Just because you have a load of characters, doesn't mean they all have to appear in one story.
No Math Zone - Tumblr (slight nsfw) | Legend of a Hot-Blooded Pig

"The only guy you know to draw fat Touhous." - Erebus

Esifex

  • Though the sun may set
  • *
  • It shall rise again
Making a multi-cast story succeed means you have to carefully plot out each and every character, carefully, and figure out exactly what impact they'll have on the storyline. Trying to throw them in helter-skelter will just make your story seem schizophrenic. Span them out over a good deal of time in the story; make sure you have distinct personalities for each one; come up with the relationship webs before you get started.

The non-Touhou work that I'm writing - the one Ever Wander's OCs are originally from - will have a cast of about 20-30 named characters that are relevent to the plot in some way. Some for the entire story, and maybe one or two who are only there for literally one or two chapters before their impact alters the events of the story. Just because they won't be mentioned for a long time doesn't mean they won't have a big role in the story; for example, a trio of Mentalist-Magi essentially deliver a message fairly early on in Kaetir. This message goes to the single most skilled Mentalist on Kaetir. He won't come back for a greater part of the story - and the trio/messengers won't come back at all. Doesn't mean they're not important.

Don't be afraid to use some of your many many characters in short-duration throw-away plots or just to advance the story somehow. Just make sure they're not 2D flat characters, who make no attempt to disguise the fact that they're there only to spout a few lines and disappear. Getting that feeling is tricky, but worth the time and effort.

I'm leaning closer to Erebus there, but Esifex is right too.

Plan the story out. This works wonders for deciding what characters to use. Make them support the story, not the other way around. If the whole point of the story is to show off the characters, and most of them are OCs, it will not be an interesting story.

Jana

  • mrgrgr
  • *
I'm not technically writing a story, but I have a similar situation to deal with in the text adventure game I'm writing. Since I have such a large cast of characters to play with, I'm letting the players and the story itself determine which characters actually appear. Just letting the story write itself may not be the best advice, but it's what I've been doing so far.

DeathShot Catharsis

  • I'm a bad poster who can't take any criticism!


Well thanks for the advice. However, the basic way my fic goes is that it's basically a sitcom, with each chapter being like an episode of a show: its own short story. Yes, there is continuity, but looking at the whole fic, there is no actual plot, just a bunch of hilarious--I hope--situations (Hence why I call it a sitcom). The whole point is to showcase a year in the lives of these guys and girls, so it's pretty random (Though, with the way my OC's act, things could be anything but predictable....). Even so, I'm aiming for more character devolopment in the second half, though it will still also be quite funny. So, each chapter could star some different characters. This does bring the problem of getting everybody equal screen time.


Tagento: Behold, Marisa Kirasame, for I have invented the greatest invention of all: The W.E.A.P.O.N.
Marisa:.....Great. So what does it do?
Tagento:...Well, to be honest, I have no idea. It could cure cancer, or it could annihilate all of Gensokyo in a fiery nuclear holocaust.


Yeah, I know that wasn't funny.


Esifex

  • Though the sun may set
  • *
  • It shall rise again
Tagento: Behold, Marisa Kirasame, for I have invented the greatest invention of all: The W.E.A.P.O.N.
Marisa:.....Great. So what does it do?
Tagento:...Well, to be honest, I have no idea. It could cure cancer, or it could annihilate all of Gensokyo in a fiery nuclear holocaust.


Yeah, I know that wasn't funny.

Marisa: Odds are, it just cures dandruff.

:B

DeathShot Catharsis

  • I'm a bad poster who can't take any criticism!
Well, going on another note, I thought that since I have a lot of OC's, about some kind of "sequel" to both PMiSS and BAiJR, where Akyu and Aya both make new articles about my OC's. Every chapter would be about a different OC, with the first half having Akyu detail the character (But in much more detail, describing their past--if it's interesting enough--,their weapons, and their relationships with the other citizens of Genso. The eyewitness reports would also be much bigger, with the various Touhou's giving quite detailed descriptions of their views on the particular character) . The second would Aya talk about some of event linked to that character (Except in the case of Aeon, there's a reason for that), and then interview them, as in BAiJR.

I've already started to write them--I'm on the second character--but I want to know If I should even be wasting my time doing this.

Jana

  • mrgrgr
  • *
I would suggest saving that for after your characters are actually introduced. Reading encyclopedic articles and interviews about characters we don't know anything is just boring, so make the characters known first. It'll save you time if certain characters aren't introduced in the story or in the event that you don't get to some.

Moerin

  • What's punk? It's an explosion of suppressed dissatisfaction.
  • It's the roar of the soul!
Hmmm... Just a suggestion, but if you have so many OCs... Why not just try to write an original story using only them?  I've been planning something similar (I do, in fact, come up with a lot of OCs, even if I don't really talk about any of them, ahah), although it's hardly gotten off the ground (a few notes of planning and about five paragraphs of writing, ahah...), but it's getting there, slowly but... Slowly.  Ahem.

It's just that I think that if you come up with lots of original characters, you may as well make an original story to go with them rather than trying to just dump them into a setting that already has an overabundance of characters already.  In the end, it's pretty fun to create something from scratch~

...Or maybe that's just me, ahah.
The solution to all of life's problems!

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DeathShot Catharsis

  • I'm a bad poster who can't take any criticism!
Hmmm... Just a suggestion, but if you have so many OCs... Why not just try to write an original story using only them?  I've been planning something similar (I do, in fact, come up with a lot of OCs, even if I don't really talk about any of them, ahah), although it's hardly gotten off the ground (a few notes of planning and about five paragraphs of writing, ahah...), but it's getting there, slowly but... Slowly.  Ahem.

It's just that I think that if you come up with lots of original characters, you may as well make an original story to go with them rather than trying to just dump them into a setting that already has an overabundance of characters already.  In the end, it's pretty fun to create something from scratch~

...Or maybe that's just me, ahah.

There's two reasons:

1: Half 60% 90% ALL of the humor of my touhou fics come from blatantly unsuited my OC's are for the touhou girls, with the girls opinions ranging from "Doesn't get along with him" to "Hates his existence and would do basically anything, ANYTHING to damn him to a horrible death".

2: I hate Yuri (and all female casts). I only like relationships that include at least one guy (So I'm one of the rare guys who like Het and Yaoi--yes, seriously--but dislike Yuri), so I made up some OC's to remedy that. (Yes, that's the main reason they exist in the first place).

Okay, waiting for someone to point out the paradox of me liking Touhou but disliking all female casts and yuri.
 
-Chagen46

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Okay, waiting for someone to point out the paradox of me liking Touhou but disliking all female casts and yuri.

Oh hi, Erebus would like a word with you. Dude hates yuri so much, it's written in his personal text.

Anyways, I personally don't see anything wrong with OC's, so long as they're written well and the writer can make me care about them. One way to do this is place them in a story with established Touhou characters that we do care about, of course, but most of all, if you give your characters depth, feeling, FLAWS, foibles and all that other good stuff that makes us human, the reader will care about them.

Some of history's greatest writers had unimaginably huge casts that they introduced gradually over years. Zergrushing them all in at once will only overwhelm the reader.

Take your time, walk them out, one by one, let the reader get to know them intimately, with a lively and engaging style that shows all their human facets.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Hmm ... You know, to put it ridiculously bluntly, I personally feel that a story that's solely about "oh, hey, look at these random characters and how they don't remotely fit in this setting!" will get really old really quickly. Worse, 1. these are original characters you've never used in any other context, so people won't be interested in them right off the bat the way they're interested in Reimu and Marisa, and 2. the way you said "the whole point of them is how badly they fit!" makes it seem like you're defining them solely in terms of what they aren't, which for one thing makes them even less-interesting to newcomers.

You really should start with stories centering entirely around them, in situations where they do fit, so that people will care about them in and of themselves. That way, if/when you get around to your original plan, people will actually appreciate them and how badly they fit for who they are.

Also, here's some suggested reading.

Gpop

Ah...so glad to have the next chapter out of the way. Now I wait for Ruro's response... :ohdear:

Coin Spire

  • Eerily Disguised Shanghai Doll
  • Tea time is the best
Hello, I'm having some problems writing a chapter in my fic.

Quoting an excerpt:
Quote
Alice panned the scenery below her as she floated above the treeline. "Thank goodness it can't fly," Alice muttered. With a few flicks from her wrists, the dolls shifted their positions forward, making a wall of dolls in front of her. With Alice's command, they stretched out their palms and shot out beams of light to the attacker below, promising wanton destruction to the receiver. As the beams made contact on the ground, a cloud smoke rose up, throwing various bits of debris upward.

"Is it dead already?" Alice heard another screech within the cloud, and another barrage of black bullets sped past her way, narrowly missing her. Some of her dolls weren't lucky and they were smashed into pieces as they were shot down.

"Ugh, I hate you already, and this is just our first night," Alice shouted to the rabid youkai below. She was answered by another barrage, and Alice weaved through the mindless, patternless attack while her dolls were being mercilessly shot down. Alice fired back using one of her remaining dolls to suppress the attacks. Shouting in pain, the youkai stopped attacking and glared at Alice with red, hungry eyes. It gave another screech, this one was filled with indignation.

It just won't die, Alice thought angrily. I'll have to retreat at this rate, at least, before I run out of dolls.

I am not experienced in writing out fight scenes, so the above paragraphs sounds a bit bland. If someone would be kind to explain (or at least, give pointers; something that I would take gratefully) some concepts in writing fighting scenes, I would be very grateful.

Themes:Aiki/Shiku

Esifex

  • Though the sun may set
  • *
  • It shall rise again
I am not experienced in writing out fight scenes, so the above paragraphs sounds a bit bland. If someone would be kind to explain (or at least, give pointers; something that I would take gratefully) some concepts in writing fighting scenes, I would be very grateful.

One of the tools I use in Kaetir (no one here has read it yet though) is a type of perspective-based descriptions. An analytical mind describes unlocking their magic as a step-by-step scientific process, while someone less educated and more outgoing would describe it as a wonderful sensation of powering up their imagination. It's the same thing each person is doing, but because you cannot actually SEE them using another part of their brain, there's no one way to describe how it's done.

In this scene you've quoted, you have Alice fighting. She's an analytical mind, very tactical and strategic in the way she fights. Stating how the fight turns out, turn for turn like that, works for her. If it were Marisa, you'd have to go into more and more detail, giving better descriptions of how much effort she puts into dodging/grazing, how many close calls there were - things that Marisa would pick up on and keep track of. To Alice, she'd just say 'okay, I dodged it, it doesn't affect me anymore.' In my opinion, that excerpt works fine in the circumstances that it's been presented in.

Coin Spire

  • Eerily Disguised Shanghai Doll
  • Tea time is the best
So technically speaking, I should think/write like the character, right?

An interesting approach. I've never tried that before, truth to tell. I'm still experimenting with writing techniques.

Themes:Aiki/Shiku

Bias Bus

  • It's unpleasent
  • *
  • if you're better than me
Here's a pretty cut and dry question; How do you guys feel about starting another story, even though you're nowhere near finished with the old one?
No Math Zone - Tumblr (slight nsfw) | Legend of a Hot-Blooded Pig

"The only guy you know to draw fat Touhous." - Erebus

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Here's a pretty cut and dry question; How do you guys feel about starting another story, even though you're nowhere near finished with the old one?

I generally try to avoid doing this, because my self-discipline sucks and I know I'll end up with like a hundred beginnings of stories if I don't committ to finishing one before starting the next. On the other hand, some stories just kind of go to sleep for a while, and you need to right about something else, or you'll get a story idea that is just too good to wait on.

So, I guess if I keep an eye on myself to make sure I don't have a stack of unfinished stories building up, and I have a burning desire to write a story even if others are waiting, then I don't have a problem doing it.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

DeathShot Catharsis

  • I'm a bad poster who can't take any criticism!
Hmm ... You know, to put it ridiculously bluntly, I personally feel that a story that's solely about "oh, hey, look at these random characters and how they don't remotely fit in this setting!" will get really old really quickly. Worse, 1. these are original characters you've never used in any other context, so people won't be interested in them right off the bat the way they're interested in Reimu and Marisa, and 2. the way you said "the whole point of them is how badly they fit!" makes it seem like you're defining them solely in terms of what they aren't, which for one thing makes them even less-interesting to newcomers.

You really should start with stories centering entirely around them, in situations where they do fit, so that people will care about them in and of themselves. That way, if/when you get around to your original plan, people will actually appreciate them and how badly they fit for who they are.

Well, That wasn?t really my plan in the first place. Some of my OC's have interesting backstories, and some, like Yuji, could have whole fics dedicated to them. It?s just that that could be a lot of work, and I already am working at a slow place, with HellFire Catharsis eating up my time.

Another reason is that My OC?s aren?t really in one big group. Like the Touhou?s, they are all in their own little teams: Tagento/Giovanni/Galvani, Eddy/Ed, Ezio/Grigan/Jiko/Patouli/Sake, Enselm/Marx/, Goemon/Syou/Nir-zan ?.. and many more. Each one of these groups could have their own little fic, and that could take a lot of time?.

Quote
Also, here's some suggested reading.

I?ve already read that, many times. I know how to write.


To put it bluntly, I?ve never seen you as this much of an critic before. What're you so pissed off about?

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
I?ve already read that, many times. I know how to write.

To put it bluntly, I?ve never seen you as this much of an critic before. What're you so pissed off about?

First, you never stop learning how to write.

Second, nothing in Muffin's post indicates he's "pissed off" about anything. He's just offering criticism. You can take it or leave it as you desire.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

DeathShot Catharsis

  • I'm a bad poster who can't take any criticism!
First, you never stop learning how to write.

I never said that. What I was saying is that I?m aware of how to avoid writing a Mary Sue.

Quote
Second, nothing in Muffin's post indicates he's "pissed off" about anything. He's just offering criticism. You can take it or leave it as you desire.

Yeah, that?s my problem; I can?t take criticism, no matter how hard I try. I?ve been really trying to get over it, but it can be really difficult.

Bias Bus

  • It's unpleasent
  • *
  • if you're better than me
Yeah, that's my problem; I can't take criticism, no matter how hard I try. I've been really trying to get over it, but it can be really difficult.
From what I see of it, some people respond to criticism as an "insult" to their work; "some random guy comes around picking apart the bad things about MY story/pic? RAGE!!" Being on the internet seems to make this worse for some reason (probably because people on the internet can be absolute pricks for no reason). The first step in taking any form of criticism is to filter out insult from advice and then see that the person who's giving you this "advice" is simply pointing out what can be improved upon. People giving you this critique must see some promise in your ability to actually care enough to help you get better at, so why not take up on their words and see what you can do to better yourself at it?

Trust me I used to be the same way, but when I saw it like how I exaplained above, I got better with it. Hell, now I ASK for it now, even though a few years back I wouldn't have even done such a thing.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 02:39:13 PM by ☠Mudoon☠ Erebus »
No Math Zone - Tumblr (slight nsfw) | Legend of a Hot-Blooded Pig

"The only guy you know to draw fat Touhous." - Erebus

If you can't take any criticism, you really shouldn't ask for advice, because inevitably at some point that advice will be "do something differently from what you're currently doing/planning on doing." :V

And my point was that even if they are interesting on their own, as compared to the existing Touhou cast, you're the only one who knows this. Here's an example: that little dialogue between Tagento and Marisa kinda made me think, "Who's this weirdo, and why does he(?) already seem to be friends with Marisa?" But if you wrote a story which introduced and centered around him (or, even better, in which he met Marisa for the first time, from Marisa's perspective which is that he's a total stranger), and made stories which allowed people to get to know him, it would go over much better.

Put it another way: canon, established characters are everybody's friends, because we know them very well (or as well as we need to). OCs are complete strangers, and you need to actually introduce us to them if you want anyone us to be friends wit hthem.

DeathShot Catharsis

  • I'm a bad poster who can't take any criticism!
If you can't take any criticism, you really shouldn't ask for advice, because inevitably at some point that advice will be "do something differently from what you're currently doing/planning on doing." :V

And my point was that even if they are interesting on their own, as compared to the existing Touhou cast, you're the only one who knows this. Here's an example: that little dialogue between Tagento and Marisa kinda made me think, "Who's this weirdo, and why does he(?) already seem to be friends with Marisa?" But if you wrote a story which introduced and centered around him (or, even better, in which he met Marisa for the first time, from Marisa's perspective which is that he's a total stranger), and made stories which allowed people to get to know him, it would go over much better.

Put it another way: canon, established characters are everybody's friends, because we know them very well (or as well as we need to). OCs are complete strangers, and you need to actually introduce us to them if you want anyone us to be friends wit hthem.

Actually, I was planning on making a bunch of stories, from the Touhou girl's perspectives, that  showcased each girl's first meeting with the OC's. So I guess that's settled.

And the little Tagento/Marisa dialog was for a little joke. Wasnt expecting you to actually think about it that much.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
And the little Tagento/Marisa dialog was for a little joke. Wasnt expecting you to actually think about it that much.

But you do see the point he's making regardless, right?

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

DeathShot Catharsis

  • I'm a bad poster who can't take any criticism!
But you do see the point he's making regardless, right?

Of course I do. Hell, I'm writing that little "Tagento and Marisa's first meeting" fic right now (It'll be told from Marisa's perspective).

The only thing I'm wondering is how long should I make it. One chapter, a few? I'll probably go with a few, though.

EDIT: Also, this fic now actually has a plot line. Problem is, with an actual storyline, I cant just have it be the "Random Hilarious Situations" I planned it to be. God dammit. Should I keep the plot, ot let it be?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 11:12:38 PM by DeathShot Catharsis »

Esifex

  • Though the sun may set
  • *
  • It shall rise again
Well, all the rage right now seems to be non-traditional story formats.

Journal entries! XX Month, XX Day; Met Tagento again. Had another invention he didn't know he made.
Does he make things in his sleep? Must remember to ask about this.

DeathShot Catharsis

  • I'm a bad poster who can't take any criticism!
Well, all the rage right now seems to be non-traditional story formats.

Journal entries! XX Month, XX Day; Met Tagento again. Had another invention he didn't know he made.
Does he make things in his sleep? Must remember to ask about this.

Huh. Well, I've already started to write it. Now, each Touhou girl will have her own short story where she meets whatever OC she meets and then things go one from there. One I'm finished with all those--and it's going to take a while--then I'll start the main story.


Damit, gotta leave the library. Wont be able to talk to everybody until tommorrow.



Hieda no Aya

  • I see you remodeled.
Here's a pretty cut and dry question; How do you guys feel about starting another story, even though you're nowhere near finished with the old one?
Everyone does it, especially if you need to take a break from the main thing you're working on by writing something different. Let me say, though, from the standpoint of the cold, harsh reality of an audience: an unfinished story isn't a story. On top of that, the world of fanfiction, and Touhou fanfiction is by far no exception, is choked with the first halves of things that will never be finished. Finishing a fic is the single biggest thing you can do to make it worth reading. So, I mean, take breaks, do other things, but it's up to your self-control; some people have no problem juggling a bunch of stories, others will get lured away from the first and never return. (ETA: Looking back at this I'm sorta confused and I think I drifted from the original topic. It's not like I think you're considering leaving the story unfinished. But I think there's value in trying not to let a partial fic go untouched any longer than it needs to. Good writing definitely takes time, and again everyone's gotta take breaks. But all else being equal, finishing what you've started is a good priority to have.)



DeathShot Catharsis, taking criticism is a vitally important skill, but it is definitely one you can practice. Hardly anybody starts out finding it fun, you know? The best advice I know is to try and deal with your feelings separately from it. When you first read the criticism and you get upset, leave it for a while and go handle that feeling. Distract yourself, cheer yourself up, or sulk, cry, punch a pillow, rant to someone you can trust; don't suppress it, don't dwell on it, get it out of your system. Then go back and look at the crit again when you're feeling better.

I know you've taken a lot of crap about your OCs already, but I hope you can take a step back and understand that realistically. Some of the things you talk about really, truly are often lead-ins to bad writing; that doesn't mean your writing is bad, but it does mean people honestly have good reason to be suspicious. You can say that you're different, that you've put a lot of work into making sure you avoid those pitfalls, but nobody else can know that until they see the results. So most of the people here aren't trying to shut down your project, they are trying to make very, very certain that you can do it right. There's always going to be pessimism and I'm sure it gets really old, but remind yourself that you have nothing to worry about as long as the proof will be in the pudding.

...Especially since you've said yourself that the reason behind the creation of your OCs is essentially that you want to fix a major characteristic of Touhou that you don't like. But you must realize that most of your audience here are fans who do like that characteristic, often quite a bit. You're going to have a hard time convincing anyone your fix is a good thing until you have something to show for it. Honestly, I completely relate to not wanting to do yuri, I can sympathize with not liking it in a fandom where it's omnipresent, but that response seems odd to me too. Is there a reason why every girl needs to be in a relationship in the first place? I don't get you sometimes, fandom.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 11:42:06 PM by Hieda no Aya »

Esifex

  • Though the sun may set
  • *
  • It shall rise again
Oh, by the way - something everyone would do well to keep in mind, especially Deathshot.

All characters at some point started as OCs. It takes a lot of effort to get them to become accepted, and they only become canon when they earn fans.