Why I Enjoy Playing and Scoring in TD - Scoring Discussion

[Shimatora]

WARNING: This will probably be long and ramble-y.

As a scorer for Ten Desires, it kind of saddens me that the game doesn't have as much competition as others. This isn't too surprising however, looking at how the scoring mechanics actually work, but I feel that some people may be missing some good points of the game which make it rather enjoyable to play. Literally minutes ago after completing my first run of the game in a month or so and posting a screenshot to Twitter, Sapz messaged me via IRC saying "Man you really like 10D :V" - and the conversation that followed sparked the idea for this thread.

[2013-05-13 21:59:27] <Sapz> I'm really surprised how few people have picked it up
[2013-05-13 21:59:38] <Shimatora> How so?
[2013-05-13 21:59:41] <Sapz> I mean okay I understand not liking it as much as the others
[2013-05-13 21:59:56] <Sapz> But it being a Touhou game I would expect to see a lot of scores regardless :v
[2013-05-13 22:02:02] <Sapz> Well I guess there's not that few
[2013-05-13 22:02:20] <Sapz> I think Hard mode is just usually the least popular difficulty :V
[2013-05-13 22:02:51] <Sapz> The small amount of Lunatic scores is very surprising though
[2013-05-13 22:03:56] <Shimatora> I could write a whole blog post on why I enjoy scoring on this game, and those who haven't given it a try might not like it :V
[2013-05-13 22:04:06] <Shimatora> and why those*
[2013-05-13 22:04:23] <Sapz> Might like it*? :V
[2013-05-13 22:04:37] <Shimatora> Well, that and why people don't like it at a glance
[2013-05-13 22:04:43] <Sapz> Ah
[2013-05-13 22:04:51] <Shimatora> It's deceivingly simple
[2013-05-13 22:04:58] <Shimatora> Well, every game is at "higher" levels of play
[2013-05-13 22:05:03] <Shimatora> But this more-so
[2013-05-13 22:05:17] <Shimatora> People see it as "spend the whole game invincible with bombs and hypers lol no thx"
[2013-05-13 22:05:45] <Shimatora> While a lot of the game does consist of that, there's actual, real planning that goes behind the routes to gain spirit and where to use trance / die / bomb etc
[2013-05-13 22:05:49] <Shimatora> Which cards to shotgun
[2013-05-13 22:05:51] <Shimatora> Which cards not to
[2013-05-13 22:05:58] <Shimatora> It's much like Cherry in PCB
[2013-05-13 22:06:08] <Shimatora> Anyone could go through and bomb randomly and trance
[2013-05-13 22:06:23] <Shimatora> I can almost guarantee they wont beat any of my easy / normal scores
[2013-05-13 22:06:41] <Sapz> Mmm
[2013-05-13 22:07:19] <Sapz> Well hey, you could always start a thread about it :V

Spoiler:

If anyone goes and beats my scores by randomly bombing / trancing now I'll eat my shoes. :V

So here I am, if anything, to try and show people why I enjoy scoring in this game. And why some people may enjoy it too.

I'd like to start off saying that: Yes, this game is most likely the easiest game to just jump into and score. At "lower levels" of scoring, you could easily get 500m-600m from playing Easy, or 1.1b for Normal. With basic knowledge going in, I feel like you could come out with similar scores - just bombing and trancing the bosses is probably enough to do this. I feel that this could be one of the reasons why people don't like the game, at a glance it's super easy. You spend the whole time invincible through bombing + trancing. While this is the case for a lot of the game, at "higher" levels of play, there is an awful lot of planning that has to go into getting any sort of good score out of the lower difficulties. (With me being a primarily Easy / Normal scorer.)

First of all, I'd like to describe some things I had in mind while planning my routes.

Throughout the game, there are some spellcards and normals which can be easily shotgunned to milk for spirit for your trance meter and for points. You need to stay near the boss, within the life ring, and continuously shooting to get the most points and spirit out of her as possible. There are also sections of invincibility for the bosses after an attack and spellcards / normals that are not quite as easy to shotgun, for these I needed to plan accordingly to try and get as much spirit out of it as I possibly could without risking myself too much.

In addition to this, there's also the matter of getting enough lives and bombs to spend during boss battles, as these are usually the most profitable place to use them. Bombing increases the amount of spirits you gain drastically, so for the cards in which you can't shotgun, you might as well bomb them for that extra spirit gain! Otherwise you're just plain missing out on PIV or trance meter. Planning trances on the stages / midbosses / boss fights are needed to get that extra life / bomb where you need it in order to squeeze that little bit extra spirit out of the bosses.

Even a slight change in route early on can alter your entire full game route. One miss bomb / trance / death can cost you an entire run once you've pushed your score high enough. I do know that this is something that happens in any game with scoring ever, but in this you'll miss out on vital areas that you need to bomb / trance, in stages for instance, where you'll be missing out on a load of PIV, score and trance meter if you don't.

ZUN has made a completely different scoring system with this game - he said he was going to make it more friendly for new players, and he did. I don't think this means that those of us with moderate or even close to expert skills in Touhou or shmups in general should use this as a reason not to play it. If you are looking for a game where challenge mainly stems from dodging extremely hard bullet patterns and gaining score from collecting point items above the POC + capturing spellcards, this game probably isn't for you.

For me, what makes the game enjoyable is having to shotgun bosses, being right in their face while they're shooting bullets. Having to plan where and how to use my bombs in order to maximise spirit gain and, effectively, increase my score. Miss timing anything in this game can spell game over for my current route - which I have stolen a few things from replays, but not very much I don't think. This is a key point for me - there is complete and utter freedom of how to use your resources. If you wanted, you could choose not to bomb a certain card or midboss or enemy, you could choose to trance elsewhere - doing anything small like this will change the game entirely. And you'll still get a relatively good score. The scoring in this game can be applied how you want, you don't have to do it in a certain place to gain enough PIV to get anywhere near to a good score, like UFO for instance, where not grazing Ichirin does huge damage to PIV.

This is what makes scoring fun for me in this game. I can make my own route and see results - I can see my score getting closer and closer to those world records, closer to the number 1 spots on the high score boards (which are STILL held by Heartbeam, I'll get there one day. :v)

I hope that some players might consider giving TD a go, but I'd love to hear from those who still don't like it. What makes the game so unenjoyable? Am I really that weird? :V

[Zengeku]

Am I really that weird? :V

Yes.

What makes the game so unenjoyable?

The lack of dodging patterns, the bombing and the suiciding for more bombs would be my answer.

[I have no name]

From a non-scorer, I don't enjoy TD as much because I don't find the patterns as fun to dodge.  The stages feel long and drawn out and just aren't interesting to me.  The soundtrack is also one of the weakest IMO, with no real memorable tunes (except Futatsuiwa from Sado).

Everyone has their own opinions though, just because I don't enjoy the game doesn't mean you can't.  The scoring I will admit is somewhat interesting with the shotgunning and stage routes...but at the same time it's like if you skip most of the fun parts, like Gagouji's Tornado and midboss Seiga's nonspell and most games for scoring have cool stage parts.  (MoF being the exception for the most part-I like that game a lot for the patterns and soundtrack)

So, to answer your question of if you're really THAT weird?  No.  You just have a different take on the game, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[commandercool]

For whatever little the opinion of a very poor player matters here, I consider Ten Desires among the bottom tier of Touhou games (but that isn't that much lower than most of them). The artificial difficulty is kind of off-putting. And I really like the soundtrack. Don't know if it quite makes my top three, but I do like all of it except for the stage five music.

[Shimatora]

For any XXC XXC XXC replies there might be, does the game just not have any fun patterns like I have no name has said? If you take out the bombing and trancing, is the game still as unfun?

Seeing more condition runs of the game would be cool.

[Avakyon]

I think the idea of no fun patterns is a bit strange, but of course that sort of statement is highly opinionated and will vary wildly between people. Personally, I enjoyed doing my no trance stuff. Yoshika and Seiga were very interesting and just as fun as any other bosses.
Taking out all the trances in scoring would result in being able to do some really fun stuff with the patterns. I even experimented with some patterns like sitting on midoss Seiga's head for the nonspell to supergraze it before it splits (although that would delay the stage so it's probably no good anyway). But the point is that there are patterns that become really fun when you give graze some meaning. It was unfortunate that the trance system really made graze a total afterthought to getting more trances.

By the way, while I do really dislike TD scoring for the most part, the extra stage is a different story. It's a good example of what the main game could have been like. There's very little bombing and trancing until it all gets expended on the survival, and I saw some amazing moves when I watched the Sanae record in regards to getting near the boss during spells.

 I admit that getting a super good score in the main game still takes some level of skill but it's just not enjoyable to me from a playing or viewing perspective. There are definitely some parts that are impressive, but the amount of time you actually spend in a trance state is way too long, and the fact that bombs and trance take down bosses so quickly is a real pain. In comparison, there are suicides and bombs all over the place in several other games, but if you take bombing in EoSD for instance, you're actually supposed to try to avoid killing the boss with said bombs, because it's important to not end the attack at the wrong time. In TD, you bomb and suddenly the attack is over. Then you trance and the next attack is over too. Basically a large problem is the speedkilling factor. I'd much rather have a total milking gave over that. But then again, I know some people hate milking, so maybe it's for the best to have someting in between these two.

[RNG]

For any XXC XXC XXC replies there might be, does the game just not have any fun patterns like I have no name has said? If you take out the bombing and trancing, is the game still as unfun?

Seeing more condition runs of the game would be cool.

10D has the best nonspells in the series. Most of the attacks are unfortunately gimmicky or poorly designed (fuck miko's second-to-last spell forcing me to time it out and sometimes unavoidably trapping me) but I like some of Yoshika's spells, Futo's spellcards and a good deal of the Overdrives. 

[chirpy13]

Even a slight change in route early on can alter your entire full game route. One miss bomb / trance / death can cost you an entire run.

This is why I hate TD.  Unlike other games, where mistakes hurt your score but you just carry on as usual, TD completely throws off your route if you don't have enough trance where you need it, and pretty much forces you to Esc-R if you don't know how to adapt to a new route quickly.  I'm sure it sounds a bit silly hearing that from the king of "oops fucked up on stage 5/6, better restart", but I feel like there's a pretty big difference between restarting because your run wasn't up to your personal standards or expectations and restarting because you don't know how to get back onto your route and really have no idea how to salvage the run after a major mistake.

[Zil]

Personally, I enjoyed the game from a "plain old dodging" perspective. It may be comparatively easy, but easy does not mean boring. Likewise, hard does not mean fun. TD has good patterns, in my opinion. They're easy, yes, but they're also unconventional. Seiga and Kyouku especially are fun bosses.

On top of that, I also had fun with the trance/bomb system when using it for pure survival. I had to plan out which attacks to dodge, where to bomb, where to trance. The planning process in TD was more fun for me that it was in any of the other Windows games. It's not just a simple "bomb where you can't dodge" kinda thing, which is what most of the others boiled down to. The way spending one resource can reward you with the other makes for interesting possibilities. That's just my experience when playing for survival. Naturally there's even more complicated planning when trying to optimize score, and I agree that it is a fun system in that regard. That lack of milking is also very nice. It's actually kind of a fast game due to that and the speedkilling.

On the other hand, the game lacks depth when compared to almost any of the others. You can only take the system so far before it's essentially optimized. And once the strategies have been planned out, they're not as fun (or difficult) to execute as the strategies in other games. For instance, where IN has you doing cool supergrazes, TD has you bombing, and that's obviously not as interesting.

Overall I don't think it's much worse than the others, but then I'm not a big fan of the Windows games in general, so maybe that should be taken with a grain of salt. I think the biggest difference between TD and the other games is that it is much simpler, and most of the fun is in the planning, which may turn away some people who just want to sit down and play, and the majority of people here don't seem to be too big on scoring in general anyway. (Also keep in mind that the game is much newer than most of the old popular ones, so naturally it'll have fewer scores submitted just by virtue of not having been around as long.)

[Karisa]

On the other hand, the game lacks depth when compared to almost any of the others. You can only take the system so far before it's essentially optimized. And once the strategies have been planned out, they're not as fun (or difficult) to execute as the strategies in other games. For instance, where IN has you doing cool supergrazes, TD has you bombing, and that's obviously not as interesting.

Unlike other games, where mistakes hurt your score but you just carry on as usual, TD completely throws off your route if you don't have enough trance where you need it, and pretty much forces you to Esc-R if you don't know how to adapt to a new route quickly.

I think these basically summarize how I feel about TD scoring, from a few attempts I've made at it. Route planning can be fun, but the actual execution tends to feel more tedious to me, since it seems mostly about making sure your trance is filled at the right times, and not making any mistakes. It's also not as easy to save a life or two in case of error, as I'd do in other resource-spending games like LLS and UFO, since each life has more effect on your overall score (2 bombs and a deathtrance, plus whatever trances those bombs gain for you), and the loss of trance from an unintentional death will shuffle around your trance timing.

I wouldn't call TD the easiest game to start scoring in, either. It may not involve the dodging skill or supergrazes the others have, but it still requires a lot of practice, more than its X-X-C reputation implies. My own recommendation for first-time scorers would probably be a survival-oriented system like MoF's (it's basically don't die, keep the faith from decreasing, capture spells, collect point items), or something like IN where it's fairly easy to incorporate scoring techniques into survival runs a few at a time. Of the more route-based games, I'd recommend LLS, since that's mostly about using bombs in areas with a lot of point items, though any route-based scoring system probably does require more commitment.

It's sort of strange, considering how I seem to be better at scoring than survival (and have had fun with the bomb-everything HRtP), you'd think I'd like a system like this...

[Shimatora]

It's really nice to see some actual small write-ups on why people don't enjoy the game, and to see what makes scoring in other games fun. I guess it really just boils down to a matter of taste in the end. Zil makes an excellent point in saying that there isn't much of a scoring community here anyway, which is unfortunate but rather unavoidable.

As for the strategies compared to other games, I think that the shotgunning is rather difficult and is excellent fun, especially on higher difficulties. My current route actually requires me to shotgun as many non-spells and spellcards as I possibly can in the earlier stages, allowing me to cash in on score in stage 6 with all the lives and bombs I have extra. Stage 6 also has some interesting shotgunning potential too, but would most likely only work on lower difficulties.

I guess here lies the main difference, almost all of the other games consist of just supergrazing, collecting items above the POC, and whatever the gimmick in the game is (whether it be UFOs or time points). Ten Desires almost requires you to speedkill bosses in order to get anywhere near a decent score. I will admit that the game's fun is somewhat taken away by the amount of invincibility you're given in terms of resources, and I would have absolutely loved to see Extra's scoring in the main game. Being unable to gain any spirit from just bombing the spellcards changes everything, and requires you to choose between PIV and spell card value. Whereas in the main game, spellcard value is so low that you wouldn't even consider capturing it, unless it was Yoshika's final, or if it was a card to shotgun.

Thank you for the replies!

[ふねん1]

I do have some experience with TD scoring on Lunatic, and I can definitely say there are good and bad sides to it.

The actual "planning" aspect is really nothing new to shooting games. When you think about it, there can only be one optimal scoring route, so when you mess up, of course the rest of the route afterwards is gonna be shot to at least some degree. TD is no exception, although I can attest that the execution of scoring routes is indeed easier than other Touhou games. Case in point, I scored a hair under 2 billion with Reimu on Lunatic after only several weeks of practice between the demo and full versions, making only one minor mistake with the route late in the game. If I wanted to approach the highest scores, that would take a much longer period to iron out other flaws, but it's still easier to get a good score in TD compared to others.

Which brings me to the actual scoring system. Sure, route execution takes practice by itself, but all the bombing and Trancing takes out large parts of the game that actually require some dodging skill. I haven't bothered examining how often you get to do this on Easy or Normal (less spirits means less Trances), but it gets ridiculous on Hard and Lunatic. Even someone like Reimu can get enough resources to bomb or Trance through most boss attacks. Not exactly what you expect from a genre defined by the difficulty of its bullet patterns. However, I will say that the scoring system works better in the stages proper, requiring actual chaining to keep your score going. That is more fun overall, although it doesn't help that the game's danmaku stops getting harder at Stage 3. >.<

Resource management is also something to address. Using lots of bombs and intentionally dying to replenish them is also nothing new to Touhou games. Lord knows what time I've put into scoring SA, and from what I hear PCB has a bit of this too. If you're used to scoring in those games, TD might not seem like a total shocker, though it's easy to see why some would be annoyed at all the bomb usage, separate from the fact that it trivializes a vast portion of TD.

[Mayson]

This is why I hate TD.  Unlike other games, where mistakes hurt your score but you just carry on as usual, TD completely throws off your route if you don't have enough trance where you need it, and pretty much forces you to Esc-R if you don't know how to adapt to a new route quickly.  I'm sure it sounds a bit silly hearing that from the king of "oops fucked up on stage 5/6, better restart", but I feel like there's a pretty big difference between restarting because your run wasn't up to your personal standards or expectations and restarting because you don't know how to get back onto your route and really have no idea how to salvage the run after a major mistake.

But wasn't UFO the same in these regards? Missing an UFO or catching a wrong one could mess up quite a lot. Even worse when the UFO ran off with your point and value items.

[chum]

It has some novelty value, but it simply doesn't hold my interest. In the end, I wish TD required a bit more technique. I believe the game would be a lot better if the trances were more like hypers, increasing your firepower but not turning you invincible. Why does the game even have a spellcard system?

Then again, I'm one of those people who just wants to execute, and who doesn't so much enjoy route planning.

But wasn't UFO the same in these regards? Missing an UFO or catching a wrong one could mess up quite a lot. Even worse when the UFO ran off with your point and value items.

IIRC he doesn't like UFO, either.

[Reiko]

I don't actually despise TD scoring. In fact, it must be the game in which I tried the hardest to get a "high" score (with a grand total of 3 runs  :V ), not counting PoFV.
I enjoy it for all the wrong reasons though. Shotgunning stuff and bomb/trancing everything is both fun and silly, even though it feels like I'm not playing a shmup.

Getting a 1 billion Normal score (with Marisa) is still sort of a goal. But again, any kind of scoring is at the very bottom of my priority list (not counting PoFV).

On top of that, I also had fun with the trance/bomb system when using it for pure survival. I had to plan out which attacks to dodge, where to bomb, where to trance.

Agreed. Planning survival "routes" for my Hard 1cc was unexpectedly enjoyable.

[ARF]

I feel that TD is a great game in terms of bullet pattern design and music etc. even if the game as a whole might be a step down in difficulty compared to other more recent titles, the patterns to me seem to be designed to allow more advanced players to shotgun them for score pretty much constantly, which is really fun! I've spent many hours in spell practice trying to score as high as I can on various spells. Sadly ZUN made a huge mistake IMO by letting bombs give you spirits and trance give you complete invincibility, it all but ruined this aspect in scoring runs. *sheds a tear for all the beautiful spellcards trancebombed in the name of world records*

[Mesarthim]

I don't really hate Ten Desires per say but I can't say I necessarily like it either.

The overall "theme" be it a combination of the music and bullet patterns, overall feels weak. I generally like the music in most of the games and stages but the only themes I actually liked in this game was the stage 4 theme + boss, stage 6 theme + boss, and our favorite Tanuki boss.

That and everyone's shot type is completely static making me dislike Marisa and Sanae in this game.