Author Topic: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory  (Read 30031 times)

Savory

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2010, 05:26:19 PM »
Well, Satori is a satori, so I'm gonna stand on saying that Hong is a hong.

Gpop

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2010, 06:20:21 PM »
Well, Satori is a satori, so I'm gonna stand on saying that Hong is a hong.

Or a Kong :V

Stuffman

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2010, 07:06:03 PM »
Yeah, it is explicitly stated that Meiling is a youkai, and dragons aren't classified as youkai. It's just an aesthetic.

Even stories specifically from Meiling's perspective (12.3) display her to be a moron, that's not an act.

Savory

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2010, 07:10:32 PM »
Even stories specifically from Meiling's perspective (12.3) display her to be a moron, that's not an act.

I resent that.

Stuffman

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2010, 07:19:37 PM »
Meiling is canonically stupid dude, that's an instance of the fanon getting it right :V


Savory

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2010, 07:33:42 PM »
Meiling is canonically stupid dude, that's an instance of the fanon getting it right :V

I haven't really seen any instances of this.

Stuffman

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2010, 07:52:33 PM »
In EoSD, she tries to flee from Reimu, but since she runs back to the gate she just winds up leading Reimu there. She also forgets who Marisa is, minutes after seeing her. In EoSD she was dumber than Cirno until fanon turned it around.

She is not (completely) incompetent but she certainly isn't smart.

Ryuu

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2010, 08:21:38 PM »
Maybe ZUN considers dragons to be a kind of youkai.

well the definition of youkai is pretty much "supernatural creature" so yeah

http://ryuukyunplaysstuff.tumblr.com/ read about me playing league i guess

Savory

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2010, 08:22:05 PM »
In EoSD, she tries to flee from Reimu, but since she runs back to the gate she just winds up leading Reimu there. She also forgets who Marisa is, minutes after seeing her. In EoSD she was dumber than Cirno until fanon turned it around.

She is not (completely) incompetent but she certainly isn't smart.

Your first point doesn't mean she is stupid. Meiling fled and Reimu simply followed her. Plus, it's her job to guard the gate; she can't very well leave her post.

Can't say much about her forgetting about Marisa.


8lue Wizard

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2010, 10:21:40 PM »
She also forgets who Marisa is, minutes after seeing her.

Really? Seems more like the standard rediculous banter to me. Let's take a look:

Quote
Meiling: Ah, thanks back there.
Marisa: It's been a while.
Meiling: ...Hey, wait a minute, when did we become acquaintances~

The line Marisa uses here, "Oyasashiburi", is specifically used as a greeting among friends who haven't seen each other for a while. Meiling's line, therefore, is not a lack of recognition, but rather a reaction to the absurdidty of a non-sequitur; a standard tsukkomi. Continuing:

Quote
Marisa: Just now?
Meiling: Oh yeah, I ran into some weirdo then.

Feigning ignorance to deliver an offhanded slight? Yeah, like that doesn't happen every other stage. From there, they move on to another subject entirely, so I'm really not seeing what's supposed to be so boneheaded here.

Stuffman

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2010, 10:19:50 AM »
Hmm, for some reason I remembered that translation being different. Yeah okay I guess she's not stupid. :ohdear:

But she's still not a dragon >:|

It makes no sense for such a minor character to be an incredibly powerful and important thing like a dragon. A dragon being around in Gensokyo is a HUGE DEAL. Meiling has been pretty much irrelevant to the plot development that's gone on in Gensokyo since EoSD, there's no way a skilled writer like ZUN would pull out a stupid deus ex machina later on with Meiling going "oh hey guys I was a dragon all along".

Meiling is a youkai, and the singular dragon that has appeared in Gensokyo is classified as a god (assuming dragon is not an entire classification to itself), and Iku's story (the current best source on canonical dragon info) suggests that other dragons live in some kind of realm beyond the clouds and that they have authority over celestials, which is the exact opposite of youkai, who find celestials to be anathema. If you try to make the argument that she's a dragon youkai, that makes no sense because youkai are stronger that the things they're youkai of. That would make Meiling the ultimate creator of the universe or something, I don't think she would be spending her time tending Remi's front lawn.

To make it as simple as possible:
Meiling is a youkai -> dragons are not youkai -> Meiling is not a dragon.

There are a hundred better theories you could make as to why Meiling is so big on the dragon aesthetic. Maybe she once witnessed a dragon in battle and was so inspired she based her danmaku on it. Maybe she was an ascetic who trained under a dragon master. Maybe she did something awesome and she was welcomed to the dragon palace and given a tiny bit of power as gratitude! The simplest explanation is to say that she just likes dragons :V

But making the leap to say she's an actual dragon given the current information is almost as large a leap as saying that Sagat is actually a tiger.

~

Also, this isn't a big deal, but just for fun - while the character "Hong" is indeed associated with a kind of dragon, the "Long" written on her hat is probably closer to the creature she's trying to emulate. "Hong" means red, likely a play on both her hair color and her servitude to the scarlet devil; the "Hong" dragon is an inauspicious one, and since Meiling considers herself a fighter for TRUTH and JUSTICE, it seems inappropriate for it to refer to the dragon rather than the color in that context.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 10:49:47 AM by Stuffman »

Savory

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2010, 04:39:46 PM »
To make it as simple as possible:
Meiling is a youkai -> dragons are not youkai -> Meiling is not a dragon.

The definition of a youkai would fit into what a dragon is: a magical being.

Also, who says dragons have to be GREAT, POWERFUL BEASTS OF FLAMES? Sure the mention of a dragon is supposed to strike fear into the hearts of men, but not all are as such.


Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2010, 05:27:01 PM »
Mei Ling is not plot relevant now, perhaps.  However, it's POSSIBLE that she's been foreshadowed to be plot relevant (her Touhou Hisoutenko ending).  In that regards, her secretly being a dragon but ZUN finally revealing it when she's moved to the forefront is a possibility

(note:  It's a possibility, not a PROBability.  Big difference, but in this case, this entire thread is just about possibilities so that should be enough)

Also, dragons are youkai.  They're in Perfect Memento's Encyclopedia, after all.  The whole point of Perfect Memento is to document youkai...


In regards to intelligence, Mei Ling for the most part seems to be portrayed as "Mediocre" or "average" (perhaps slightly below average).  She's easily fooled and often accidentally makes mistakes (Inaba of Moon and Earth, Strange and Bright Nature Deity, etc), but she doesn't go around making ridiculous leaps of logic like Cirno and Utsuho seem to do (her conversation with Marisa in EoSD is more because MARISA is the insane one, which would confuse anyone, really).  She's probably meant to represent your average Joe (Jane?) in most respects.  Of course, considering that the rest of the Scarlet Devil Mansion are geniuses in most regards when you really study them, this does make her look bad, but only relatively.

Her mistaking that giant robot in Hisoutenko to be a god of destruction was in part on purpose (Her profile says she might have exaggerated it just a little cause she wanted some excitement)

Of course, it still doesn't seem to be in the league that you'd expect a dragon to be when it comes to brains.  Admittingly, I'm not sure if it was ever stated that dragons are smart, but still...   well, that's why my own theory is that Mei Ling's been hit with a serious case of amnesia or so.  Or maybe she's just immature (IE, a baby dragon, metaphorically speaking)

Savory

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2010, 05:40:27 PM »
Honestly, I can't remember Meiling showing any signs of being clumsy or such.

But as Tiamat says, maybe Meiling is on a different level.

Tengukami

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2010, 05:41:29 PM »
Also, dragons are youkai.  They're in Perfect Memento's Encyclopedia, after all.  The whole point of Perfect Memento is to document youkai...

OK this is getting ridiculous.

Look at any other youkai in the entire canon of Touhou who are an identifiable type of youkai. What is their race listed as? Werehakutaku, karakasa, tsurube-otoshi and so on.

Now look at Hong Meiling's race. It's just "youkai". Not "dragon" or "Dragon". Youkai. Period.

There, now you can end this ludicrous semantic head-bashing over this one word, and continue with the groundless "But what if ..." speculations.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Savory

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2010, 05:47:19 PM »
There, now you can end this ludicrous semantic head-bashing over this one word, and continue with the groundless "But what if ..." speculations.

First off, youkai is a widely general topic. It's like saying "mammal" or "fish". Also, this is the main bearing of the topic, speculating on the "dragon-ness", so to speak, of Meiling.

Tengukami

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2010, 05:47:58 PM »
First off, youkai is a widely general topic. It's like saying "mammal" or "fish".

Look at any other youkai in the entire canon of Touhou who are an identifiable type of youkai. What is their race listed as? Werehakutaku, karakasa, tsurube-otoshi and so on.

Now look at Hong Meiling's race. It's just "youkai". Not "dragon" or "Dragon". Youkai. Period.

My point is is that it is meaningless to focus on this word "youkai" because it tells us literally nothing about Hong Meiling. What we do know, however, is that anyone else in the canon who IS a specific type of youkai is listed as such. Hong is not. Beating the "youkai" drum proves absolutely nothing about her dragon-ness.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 05:49:43 PM by Tsukiko »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Savory

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2010, 05:58:12 PM »
My point is is that it is meaningless to focus on this word "youkai" because it tells us literally nothing about Hong Meiling. What we do know, however, is that anyone else in the canon who IS a specific type of youkai is listed as such. Hong is not. Beating the "youkai" drum proves absolutely nothing about her dragon-ness.

Uh..I think you're missing the point of this topic. It's just a fun debate.

Gpop

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2010, 06:16:54 PM »
I always thought that the term "youkai" was used by humans in Gensokyo for any human-like species that exists. Those classified as just simply "Youkai" are undetermined in terms of their actual species, while others like Night Sparrow or Karakasa or Satori are all still considered "Youkai", but with a determinate species that they fall under/relate to.

Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2010, 06:17:12 PM »
My point is is that it is meaningless to focus on this word "youkai" because it tells us literally nothing about Hong Meiling. What we do know, however, is that anyone else in the canon who IS a specific type of youkai is listed as such. Hong is not. Beating the "youkai" drum proves absolutely nothing about her dragon-ness.

Akyu specifically states in the foreword that she dumped anything that she HERSELF could not figure out how to classify into the youkai section.  Of course, if even Mei Ling herself didn't realize she's a dragon, why on earth would Akyu?

My response about the dragon being a youkai was in regards to someone earlier saying that a dragon is not a youkai.  This is false.  A dragon, just like nearly everything else that isn't human or non-youkai animal/plant, is a youkai.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 06:20:20 PM by Tiamat »

Tengukami

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2010, 06:39:27 PM »
Uh..I think you're missing the point of this topic. It's just a fun debate.

"Debate" implies that there's some kind of factual evidence you can hold up for scrutiny. What I was doing was clarifying a semantics issue with the word "youkai" and how it is used canonically. As Tiamat says, anything that cannot be classified and is not human is called "youkai". Hong Meiling is classified as "youkai". This means that no one, not even Hong herself, believes her to be a dragon.

In other words, using her classification as "youkai" as evidence for her being a dragon/the Dragon is off-base, as she's just as likely to be any other type of youkai in Gensokyo.

I don't see how using basic logic should get in your way of having fun.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Savory

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2010, 06:48:10 PM »
"Debate" implies that there's some kind of factual evidence you can hold up for scrutiny. What I was doing was clarifying a semantics issue with the word "youkai" and how it is used canonically. As Tiamat says, anything that cannot be classified and is not human is called "youkai". Hong Meiling is classified as "youkai". This means that no one, not even Hong herself, believes her to be a dragon.

In other words, using her classification as "youkai" as evidence for her being a dragon/the Dragon is off-base, as she's just as likely to be any other type of youkai in Gensokyo.

I don't see how using basic logic should get in your way of having fun.

*facepalm* It's just speculation. Geez....it's not the logic that's getting in the way, it's your disavowal. As was stated, there could exist unidentifiable species of youkai. Maybe it hasn't been confirmed. Maybe Meiling doesn't want to reveal such a fact. Who knows? No one knows. Various evidence goes for it and against it, so who's to say?

Smok, destroyer of thoughts

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2010, 06:49:31 PM »
OR MAYBE ZUN himself (!!) Doesn't realize Meiling is a dragon!


>.>


Mokou Fan

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2010, 06:55:03 PM »
*facepalm* It's just speculation. Geez....it's not the logic that's getting in the way, it's your disavowal. As was stated, there could exist unidentifiable species of youkai. Maybe it hasn't been confirmed. Maybe Meiling doesn't want to reveal such a fact. Who knows? No one knows. Various evidence goes for it and against it, so who's to say?

That's funny, because I've been seeing "youkai = maybe a dragon!" being used for the past page or so here. If you want a debate, is not part of a debate people who disagree with you? Or is this the "let's all agree Hong is a dragon" thread? If so, I'll be happy to stay out of it. But if it really is a debate, as you say, well, expect people to disagree and don't take it so bad.

OR MAYBE ZUN himself (!!) Doesn't realize Meiling is a dragon!


>.>

NOW we're getting somewhere!

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Savory

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2010, 07:11:06 PM »
That's funny, because I've been seeing "youkai = maybe a dragon!" being used for the past page or so here. If you want a debate, is not part of a debate people who disagree with you? Or is this the "let's all agree Hong is a dragon" thread? If so, I'll be happy to stay out of it. But if it really is a debate, as you say, well, expect people to disagree and don't take it so bad.

Well, the term youkai is pretty widespread. At least to me. It goes into species like vampires and ghosts, so why not dragons?

Tengukami

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2010, 07:33:59 PM »
Clearly, she's a tsurube-otoshi. Her bucket is being borrowed by her younger sister, Kisume.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Savory

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2010, 07:39:13 PM »
JAOOOO!

Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2010, 07:43:55 PM »
That's funny, because I've been seeing "youkai = maybe a dragon!" being used for the past page or so here.

You need to go back and re-read the previous page and this one more closely, then.  It's not "youkai = maybe a dragon!".   It's some OTHER person saying "youkai = definately NOT a dragon" and people countering with "youkai = doesn't necessarily mean NOT a dragon"
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 07:45:37 PM by Tiamat »

Tengukami

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2010, 08:36:01 PM »
You need to go back and re-read the previous page and this one more closely, then.  It's not "youkai = maybe a dragon!".   It's some OTHER person saying "youkai = definately NOT a dragon" and people countering with "youkai = doesn't necessarily mean NOT a dragon"

See now, I tried to let this drop with some humor. And you had to come charging back with this.

The definition of a youkai would fit into what a dragon is: a magical being.

Also, dragons are youkai.  They're in Perfect Memento's Encyclopedia, after all.  The whole point of Perfect Memento is to document youkai...

youkai is a widely general topic. It's like saying "mammal" or "fish". Also, this is the main bearing of the topic, speculating on the "dragon-ness", so to speak, of Meiling.

And so forth.

I'll say it one last time: I was clearing up a semantical error, and if you lot don't like someone coming into a speculation thread and disagreeing with you, then go make a "let's all agree Hong's a dragon" thread.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2010, 08:41:20 PM »
....at this point, I'm not even sure what on earth your actual point is, anymore.  You seem to be disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, now.