Author Topic: [SC - Melee] General Thread  (Read 49573 times)

helvetica

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2011, 12:19:31 AM »
Also wtf when did Queens suddenly 1) become usable in BW and 2) ZvT now heavily favors Z when used?  I know I stopped watching BW for a few months but this metagame shift is ridiculous.  Mech is stomped hard by good Spawn Broodling usage and Zerg just lols at Terran Bio with Ensnare as it completely negates Stim.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #61 on: May 21, 2011, 01:58:15 AM »
lol reminds me of a ZvP I saw a while back, infested terrans with queens. Worked quite well. Nice to see queens making their way in metagame. I don't remember who it was, but someone had a build where they could almost always force late game ZvZ, which means queens/defilers. Is that build still around? Haven't followed bw scene in a while. But yea, late game ZvZ....

No you don't need a billion Ghosts, but one per every 25 supply or so is fine. 
That might as well be a billion ghosts. At what level does this work for you? I'd really like to see these games.

TvT nukes is great, but still not necessary to win. Most players opt for drops, forcing army to relocate. And a good drop is easier-and probably has better payoff if successful. Now if only ghosts had lockdown still....

Current TvP metagame is cloaked Ghosts. 
Not necessarily the cloaked part, but yes ghosts are part of the metagame in TvP. But they aren't essential unless forced-mass pheonix/early mass sentry?/immortals?/mass ht archons. And, you should not rely on ghosts to win you the game-unless forced as above. T is always at a disadvantage in 200 food late game engagements. I don't care what army comp you have. Good drops/harass is the only way to win. Again 4+ ghosts is probably pushing it.

That only works until Goldish level where Zergs get enough braincells not to run blings into a tank line.
Try me. It works fine vs masters league zergs. And do you watch GSL or any of the pro matches? It seems to work just fine there. Makes Idra rage without fail everytime, I'm sure. The tanks are so brutal because blings are so cost inefficient vs mech, and T will simply run their bio ball behind their tank. And unless those blings are on creep, they will 1. die trying to get to the bio ball 2. 10 blings to just kill that 1 tank, while bio ball mops up. You can't go pure bio until you get those crucial 3/3 upgrades. And then all Z players qq because their units suck so bad, and ultras take 435345345 years to build. Subsequently why you hear Idra QQ about zerg since beta.

And ghosts in TvZ, will only work once/maybe twice. It will light counter that first muta ball and first infestors. But, larva mechanic is too strong, and a good Z will immediately abuse those ghosts next production cycle. And I don't know about you, but I scarcely have time to worry about snipe when I have blings/speed lings/mutas chasing my army down. Trust me, all the good players are worrying about splitting their army, rather than sniping. And ultras. yea, if Z manages to mass ultras. A couple ghosts will help a lot, but well...mass ghosts won't help you.

It's just the problem with ghosts/sc2 is everything is such such such a hard counter, that with the P warpgate/chrono and Z larva, they can remax their armies relatively quickly and counter you, while T slowly builds units 1 at time. Even if you win these engagements, you are usually left with useless units. Like how in TvP, P gets collosus-T misjudges and overproduces vikings, T kills the collosus, while T ground army gets wiped due viking overproduction, and T is left with all these useless vikings....While P lol warps in speed lots/stalkers/dts/ht or such. Ghosts no different. They are effective, but simply not in the next wave.

But, they did decrease gas cost on ghosts in recent patch, so they might be more viable. Who knows.

Wow I wrote an essay...

helvetica

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #62 on: May 21, 2011, 02:23:59 AM »
Idra is a shitty Zerg tbh.  He's overhyped simply because he's a foreigner.  There's several Zergs who were twice the Zerg Idra ever was.  Blings into tank lines is almost micro 101.  You only do it if you have overwhelming numbers and you're just cleaning up.  The real skill is in Marine splitting which really comes down to who's better, the Marine splitter or the Infestor caster.

Honestly Bling based builds are going to the wayside.  They're only good against Tank/Marine, and only if you can catch Marines in the open.  A build that requires your opponent to screw up is not a good build.  There's been a lot of work on Hydraroach builds which are much more versatile IMO, with good Corruptor/Brood Lord usage Mech is mostly irrelevant and everyone is getting extremely good at creep spread so Hydra speed isn't as much of an issue.

The problem with ZvT isn't as much the Siege Tank as it is the current map pool.  Current maps are very anti Zerg, they're close spawns (which makes ZvP bad), narrow with lots of chokes and highground (which makes ZvT bad) and with hard to defend naturals with very short main/natural rush distances (which makes ZvZ boring and devolve down to all-in builds).  Tanks are pretty handily counted by Hydraroach, if they were given more room to swarm that is.  But since they have to go almost single file through chokes they get blasted apart.  Cliffed naturals don't help either as it gives Terran a hilariously easy method to harass Zerg for almost no work at all, especially since drop tech isn't a separate tree anymore.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #63 on: May 24, 2011, 10:37:12 PM »
cuz srsbsns sc is life. Wondering what hotkey setups you guys use for races, both bw/sc2. if any at all.

sc2 T
early game
1,2,3,4 - workers. for apm spammage you see. 4 - scout
5 - cc
6 - raxs
7 -  facs
8 - sp
mid-late game
1A1A1A1A1A1A 1,2,3,4.5 army. 4,5 spellcaster/support/drops/misc
9 - upgrades
0 - cc
but yea. too tempted to 1a only. zzzzz. wish blizz would give me option to limit unit selection to like 24 or somemat.

bw P
pretty much exact same. old habits die hard. I miss my 0p0p0p0p early game spam though.

@helvetica
newish map pool in ladder/gsl has some rather... large rush distances/open areas. Swear it just makes the game longer/encourages 200 army battle which is yawn.
Also played vs a few hydraroach, dunno, seems weak to me. Makes my drops even more effective because they have no speed lings/mutas to run back to base with. That or they become super defensive with their slow army-which seems to work only for P. And tanks do fairly well vs hydraroach, I do the opposite for banelings and make my bio meatshields. medivacs op. And brood lords hmm. They have to catch me by surprise to work. It is so easy to switch to vikings due to prior medivac production.

helvetica

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2011, 01:03:04 AM »
Just limit group size yourself :b or is that too much work for you :V

Hydraroach requires a different mindset.  You're right it's more of a defensive posture but that's fine, you're not winning speed matches with it.  The real big deal is the game really hasn't developed yet.  It's only been out for a year, BW is 13 years old and they're still finding new changes and builds (lollllllllll Queen ZvT makes me all sorts of warm and fuzzy).  I think the 1a 200v200 mashes will be worked out of our systems once a good stable map pool comes out and more strict timings are discovered.  Right now there really isn't much in the way of timing attacks/etc to keep people honest rather than just turtle off of 2 base and mash giant armies.


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2011, 08:13:21 AM »
Hotkey setups are as follows.

BW Terran

1-6 army (6 might be for spellcasters and such, when I play Toss for fun)
7 science vessels
8-0 comsat stations

simple, right?

SC2 Terran

1 army
2 medivacs/tanks/ghosts/whatever
3 Rax/factory
4 Orbital commands
5-7 misc shit
8-0 usually my expansions

SC2 has almost no Micro whatsoever. Well, bar the marine split for infestors but that's it.


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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #66 on: May 27, 2011, 06:32:55 PM »
You know, I saw this thread on tl about macro mechanics, I need to see if I can find it again. Sad as it is, I believe sc2 has already been explored as much as it is ever going to be. at least until expansions.

Anyways, that tl thread had econ/macro graphs for all races for sc2 and bw. The graphs for sc2 confirmed my suspicions;  it simply isn't worth it to have more than 3 fully saturated bases-other than for gas. Just think about the implications. No matter how large the maps get. No matter how "balanced" the unit stats get. No matter how much they tweak the tech tree timings. It all hinges on this macro mechanics. Add to that, the blazing fast gameplay/econ/teching, the game is going to get stale quickly. I don't think we will ever see the sprawling, insane map control we see in bw.

To all those who say, sc2 has only been out for 1 year, give it time- sc2 has 13 years of bw experience and infrastructure fueling it.

orz, I feel so sad now. and angry. Curse you dustin browder you troll, curse you! I wanted sc, not C&C5.

helvetica

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #67 on: June 02, 2011, 12:06:29 AM »
Except SC2 and BW are not the same game, despite having a similar setting and premise.  There's lots of game mechanics that do not translate to anything BW had, and there's things in BW that don't translate to SC2 either.  Remember, to have perfect macro in BW requires INSANE execution, whereas in SC2 controls have been streamlined, and stuff like MBS/smartcast/etc make macro much easier.  BW didn't have larva inject to remove the need for multiple home hatches (although there's still use for them) or chrono boosting to get key tech out faster or mule dropping making you decide between stocking for scans or burning energy for an econ boost.  And by the state of balance they're tweaking more towards micro-heavy balancing to make up for the ease up on macro execution.

Sure being good at BW prepares you a bit more for SC2 as a lot of the concepts are the same, but when it comes down to it the games are completely different.  SC2 is not BW2.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 12:08:05 AM by helvetica »


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2011, 12:37:38 AM »
Perfect Macro. Oh I miss those time where macro means having more than 8 of the same building and clicking each and every single one then queuing up a unit. Now for me it's just like

"3"
"aaaaaaddddd"
'Tab"
"ssss"
"4"
"e" *click*

Yeah, in that order.


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helvetica

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2011, 12:43:31 AM »
Exactly, MBS and co have made macro crazy easy in SC2, so the challenge now is to balance unit skills/etc to be more micro intensive.


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2011, 12:53:04 AM »
So far, I don't see much Micro in Terran. Zerg has it good with Infestor and Bling play and Toss has it with HT storms and feedbacks. Only thing T has is Drops and Ghosts for Micro.

Either way, I think I'm switching to Z for SC2. I think.


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Fetch()tirade

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2011, 01:03:34 AM »
I think most T micro is in the form of controlling the bioball, especially around enemy casters and banelings. Seriously, this video shows how epic marine splitting can win you the game.

Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2011, 01:21:56 AM »

Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2011, 01:32:07 AM »
I think most T micro is in the form of controlling the bioball, especially around enemy casters and banelings. Seriously, this video shows how epic marine splitting can win you the game.

That is FUCKING AWESOME.

Seriously, that was amazing micro by Happy.


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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2011, 03:22:54 PM »
seems like the "micro" in sc2 consists of denying your opponent of the ability to micro... ff? conc shells? fungal growth? collosus? vikings? zealot lolblink? to an extent, storm?. zzzzzzzzzzzzz.  And army size is so pathetic now. double gas workers+high food cost units. Oh and did you know army is much more effective when in a ball = army headbutting in middle, as opposed to bw spread out armies. Oh and units are so boring. There is no sense of wanting to have  "control of space" with sc2 units. 3 lurkers could hold a ramp vs 2 groups of m&m. What sc2 units can come close to matching that? my god, blizz even took away high ground advantage. Ugh, need to stop thinking about sc2 vs bw.

Yea, it is very much a different game, sc2 and bw.
Yea, I'm biased.

I want to love sc2, I really do. But I'm losing hope, especially when in almost every patch blizz seems to think balancing = bunker build time/cost/salvage return...Really?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 03:46:10 PM by kactaplb »

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2011, 04:10:26 PM »
Microing units lets you make them more effective than if you just let the built-in AI handle them. So if you can deny your enemy's ability to do that, then that's a good thing.

Concussive shells just makes marauders more useful, no micro required on each side since if an enemy unit gets slowed then it can't do anything about it. Much like getting +1 attack: if you've got it, then you've got it. (On the other hand, well-timed stimpaks can really do some damage, especially in drop form against enemy bases.)
The same could be said for zealot charge. It just makes them better units.

As for FF, storms, fungals, nukes, etc.,: Doesn't BW have spellcasters also? SC2 may have different spells, but it's a matter of preference whether you like them or not.

Colossi and vikings are actually units that would force your opponent to micro harder so that they don't get roasted/missile'd to death.

Actually, depending on army composition, concaves are generally better in terms of positioning. It allows you to take on an opponent from multiple directions while not having to break up your army. Exceptions to this are the protoss deathball and the terran bio/mech ball (extremely situational). Of course,successful  flank attacks can also be very powerful.

Controlling space (AKA good positioning) is a major part of SC2 and RTS games in general. Good placement can instantly turn the game to your favor or cost you a victory. Siege tanks are a great example of this. In addition, keeping the enemy pinned down with the threat (but not occurrence) of attack can also work in your favor. Mutalisks are extremely good at this if the opponent can't construct/mobilize enough anti-air to deal with them.

High ground advantage still exists if the enemy doesn't have vision of the higher ground.

-

All in all, BW and SC2 are just two different games with some similar aspects.
Though I might rage at some of Blizzard's updates (cough cough warpgate buildtime), I can understand where they are coming from. Your example of adding costs to bunker salvaging does make sense: bunkers, which increased the defense of terran bio, were basically free buildings if they could be salvaged; adding the salvage cost just makes it so that in the end, they actually did cost you some minerals.

Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2011, 08:53:42 PM »
Tell me your reasoning behind the supply depot first then a rax.

I thought that patch was kinda stupid.


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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #77 on: June 02, 2011, 10:59:34 PM »
Tell me your reasoning behind the supply depot first then a rax.

I thought that patch was kinda stupid.
Dustin Browder decided that T had too many early game options and tried to make them more like P and Z.  Blizzard is still experimenting with balancing methinks, because some of these changes are pretty retarded.

helvetica

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #78 on: June 02, 2011, 11:46:44 PM »
Tell me your reasoning behind the supply depot first then a rax.

I thought that patch was kinda stupid.
T did have too many options given the current state of balance and a lot of them really were blind faith counters.  Even with the supply nerf SCV/Marine all-ins are still very doable, and let's be honest, noone did 10CC like in BW.  The thing about Terran is having a hugely powerful build (and econ boost) before having to plunk down supply.  While Zerg has the 6 pool, the other two races have standard play that easily defends against it, whereas Zerg really doesn't have anything to counter such early Marine/SCV all-ins (let alone Reaper builds) without cutting econ HARD with a super early scout.  The starting game econ is extremely fragile and having to pull a worker at before 9 to scout for potential cheese is extremely detrimental.

Also I just started playing again after a long hiatus, and my god does my micro suck.  I hate how despite never having played against it, I have the perfect instincts/etc to defend against the 3rax all-in (and notice it too), but then I lose anyways because I make one or two micro mistakes.  Also ultras suuuuuuuuuuck now,  I actually lost a game I was winning handily because I made a tech switch from Infestor/Ling to Ultra/Ling and he just massed Thors and Marines (expecting Brood Lords so it wasn't like the Ultra switch wasn't totally unfounded).  Even then I managed to whittle him down far enough to a base trade situation but he ended up finding my last hatch.

I'm sticking to Infestor/Ling until I play people competent enough to handle it because oh man does it own in ZvT and ZvZ.  I was playing one ZvZ almost perfectly.  I sacced my starting Overlord and spotted the fast Lair and immediately switch to mass Roach production while getting out Spore Crawlers.  I ran up his ramp with about 20 Roaches right as he was finishing his wall and his third Spine Crawler, and immediately ran in and sniped his Spire before it completed.  I expanded behind the Roach pressure and transitioned to Infestor/Ling while continuing to pump Roaches in the meantime (making him think I was going Muta/Ling to bait Hydras).  I eventually wore him down and broke his main open with a huge swarm of Speedlings and Infestors.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 11:53:43 PM by helvetica »


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2011, 09:45:12 PM »
Tell me your reasoning behind the supply depot first then a rax.
Actually, people were starting to manage against 5rr/7rr and the like. Blizz mentioned 2v2 and teamplay, in 2's, impossible to defend vs 2 reaper cheese. So yea, I think they changed it to appease the 2v2 crowd. Who probably won't be playing a year from now. Honestly back then, people didn't know how to handle reaper cheese. Anyways, good job blizz making the reaper useless. just goes to show how enforced roles the units are.
As for FF, storms, fungals, nukes, etc.,: Doesn't BW have spellcasters also? SC2 may have different spells, but it's a matter of preference whether you like them or not.

Colossi and vikings are actually units that would force your opponent to micro harder so that they don't get roasted/missile'd to death.
sc2 storm does more dps I believe. Once they go off, pretty much your entire army has to run. The unit army ball pathing is to blame here as well. Also, I bet 2 storms could cover my entire 200 food army. In bw, you'd see like 5+ storms at a time in different locations.
In small unit numbers, any units should be microed, but with high unit counts lolimpossible. Vikings you really can't micro vs. I mean really. You either engage or immediately run, that range... And they are going to be stacked ala viking flower. You can try to snipe collosi before they get range upgrade, but post upgrade, viking/corrupter counter is a must. That nice ball/concave is going to do you no good.

@helvetica
hehe should have got some infestors and parasite all the thors and go drink tea. I stopped doing any mass thors for this reason.
I at times feel really sorry for Z, their army comp feels so ineffective. and boring.

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #80 on: June 15, 2011, 08:42:03 PM »
I'm having trouble dealing with terran mech, particularly mass thors (as protoss). Everything I've tried has failed: zealots + colloxen, blink stalkers, charge zealots + immortals, dts; all have been utterly crushed. The latest match I played I still lost, when I had immortals + dts + charge-lots with 3/2/2 upgrades. The only thing I haven't tried is void rays, and I have a feeling that they would just be shot down with those missile thingies.

Is there any viable protoss counter to thors that doesn't involve massive casualties?

And as a side note, here is one of the last games played by members of Root Gaming. You will be sorely missed.

Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #81 on: June 16, 2011, 05:53:18 AM »
Use guardian shield.


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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #82 on: June 16, 2011, 07:33:22 AM »
Use guardian shield.
How exactly does guardian shield help against Thors.   :V


On another note, use HTs with feedback.  VRs and Carriers are also viable solutions, since Thors have shit for anti-air.

helvetica

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #83 on: June 17, 2011, 04:31:59 AM »
VRs are great against mass Thor especially with the bonus armored damage.


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #84 on: June 18, 2011, 06:41:07 PM »
^what commissar said. vr is a nightmare. In fact, if he is rushing mech, early vr will end the game right there. Heck even a 3 gate, let alone 4.
There are very vulnerable timings that meching T is exposed to, go watch reps and see where they are.
If it does get mid late game, expo and map control like crazy. punish his early game turtle and abuse his army mech immobility. Deny expos when T tries to take 3rd or 4th, pylons and wg units everywhere. But really, if you properly micro and engage favorably, and stay mobile, you should just outmacro him. Mech is so hard to rebuild yea? Even standard zlot/stalker should beat mass thors out, as long as you ff the thors down. Well, this is assuming you didn't let him get that critical mass of thors.

Anyways, been seeing a lot of what I think is spanishiwa style Z play, and it hurts. Like 15 min in, and Z already has infestors, 2/2 upgrades, creep almost to my natural what... 20 min I see ultras what.... 25 min broodlords... my god. how 2 counter plox. I've switched to a T gasless opening myself.

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #85 on: June 18, 2011, 11:25:49 PM »
IIRC, spanishiwa-style play is super-greedy but has no effective map control thanks to not getting gas until 40 control and relying on spines for early defense. So, get super-greedy yourself.

(Note: I am not good at Starcraft)

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #86 on: June 18, 2011, 11:56:03 PM »
The problem with that is the constant fear of a ling run-by just coming out of nowhere and murdering any expos you put up. Even a small group of about 8-12 of them could force you to abandon and maybe even outright destroy a hatch/cc/nexus if you can't get something to kill them over there in time. This fear is deeply embedded within anyone going up against a zerg, since the spawning pool is an essential building and will always be built; because lings are dirt cheap; and because sending a small squad of lings to mop up an expo while engaging your army is easy and effective. The only ways to counter this are to 1. wall off (which on some maps isn't exactly a viable strategy) and/or 2. put up a lot of static defense (in the form of a standing army or just lots of cannons/spines/bunkers with marines.

Unless your opponent is terrible at scouting, you couldn't get away with being greedy.

Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #87 on: June 19, 2011, 07:45:09 PM »
Been experimenting with a Z practice partner-masters- and this spinashiwa/greedy style play is hard to punish (at least for me) unless I'm scv allin or some cheesy 2 base push/3port banshee, etc. He has enough spines/queens/creep that he should fend off any normal pushes. Oh, and the infestors/tech comes faster than I thought, its like 10 minutes in I see like 5-6 infestors lol. I can hellion drop, and he loses like 10 drones, and still be ahead in econ. orz.... Gasless opening is now my favorite. It really helps with TvP where I can keep up with P probe count, amazing~

helvetica

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #88 on: June 22, 2011, 05:43:50 PM »
I hate ZvZ, that is all :|


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #89 on: June 23, 2011, 02:54:49 AM »
I hate ZvZ, that is all :|
And I hate PvP.  :|