Rune guardians 5 - Crawlers 0 GAME OVER

[Stuffman]

First, if the setup was like I was anticipating it wouldn't have been impossible to prove my bulletproof claim; if I was targetted, the lack of a night kill could've been explained by my role, which I was counting on. But yeah it's impossible to prove now.

I wasn't that inactive on Day 1 in terms of examining cases. There were only three things going on Day 1:
- Nietz vs Kiro, which I stated my opinions on early
- wrathie, who was my primary target at the time
- Me, who I was very busy defending.
I gathered up my opinions on everyone in a post towards the end of the day. The only other thing I really could have done was nudge the less active people (we had quite a few) which other players were already doing.

I settled on wrathie as a target because when you don't have a real scum read on anyone, you policy lynch. I either had the option of lynching Xan who had done nothing all day, or lynching wrathie for what should be pretty obvious reasons. I wanted to lynch wrathie, but wound up having to settle for Xan due to panic mode. You make a policy lynch because someone's play is being detrimental to town, not because you think they're scum, and you only do it early in the game.

My list of points on you (Kiro) are not scumtells, they're just things that would fit with my theory, so it's natural that they would be easy to explain away individually, I'm just pointing out that everything you've done has been consistent with my theory. The main points on you are:
- You have only been aggressive to people who have made cases against you (especially now that you have changed your opinion on me after I stated my scum Kiro theory)
- You have been very passive towards questionable play (when it is unrelated to you, at least)
- The request for the mass prayer (even if you stopped bringing it up, you never admitted it was a very bad idea, and it never should have been made in the first place)

If you want opinions on Zakeri or Rou, ask and I'll find time to do it later.

Yes plz. Why do we have to ask?

But I don't buy his call. On re-read Serp is the only person really actively pursuing Stuff with a case on his hands and although he seems to let up, he was killed with no further explanations and calls on anyone else... No one else really went after Serp and the only person Serp actually replied to was to Kiro and Nietz.
He provided good questioning for Nietz and Kiro and to me and was promptly killed off at that.

It would be way too hamfisted to kill Serp if I was scum. However, I hadn't considered the angle that he was also unhappy with Nietz and Kiro...maybe his death wasn't intended to reflect badly on me after all since most of us are agreeing that at least one of Nietz/Kiro is scum now.

Side note: Still trying to figure out who Kiro's scum partner would be because I'm not convinced it would be Nietz but he's high on the list. Probably not wrathie or Edible since I think they're town. It's more likely I would settle this tomorrow if we lynched Kiro first and found out if he was scum or not.

[Pesco]

Lair of Beasts:3 Vote Count

Wrathie (1): Edible
Nietz (1): Kiro
Kiro (0): wrathie
Stuffman(2): Zakeri, Wrathie
Edible (0): Wrathie

Not voting: Roukanken, Nietz, Stuffman
With 7 players remaning, it takes 4 to lynch. Stuffman is at L-2

[Stuffman]

So I'm rereading players one by one to do some analysis but before I put together my thoughts one thing really stands out that I think needs an answer.

Bottom line is I'm not entirely convinced wrathie is scum, but he's looking like a good lynch even if only by policy. However, I don't think policy lynch is a good thing in 9-player game, and plus I have a nagging suspicion we can get XP for either being in a scum lynch or not being in a town one.

XP? What the heck do you mean by XP, there's no mention of anything like that in the rules.

[Stuffman]

Yeah, I'm triple posting. Got a problem, punk?

I think wrathie is town because of the way he flipped out last night. His bad play is easily explained by him being a bad player.

I think Edible is town because he turned down the extension, and he is being very direct about his arguments, even if he tunneled earlier.

New from my rereads, I think Roukanken is town because of his vibe during day 1. I get the distinct feeling of uncertainty from him; he asks questions about the setup and touches on a lot of points, seeming like he's thinking and doesn't really know which direction to press yet. I think scum would be more methodical if they had a plan or more reserved if they didn't.

This leaves Kiro/Nietz, Kiro/Zakeri, or Nietz/Zakeri.

Kiro/Nietz makes me scratch my head, because while I understand why they would want to push on each other to keep each other busy, I don't understand why they would go so far as to draw so much attention to themselves, since we all recognize that either one or both are scum. Also, their playstyles and opinions on many issues seem to directly contradict each other, meaning they would be unable to work together should the need arise. In other words, they would've needed to be dedicated to bussing each other right from the start of the game, which is pretty nuts.

Between Kiro and Nietz my suspicion is more on Kiro. Nietz has made a few poor arguments here and there, but Kiro has been downright weird IMO. (Though, the XP comment stated above makes me feel somewhat ambivalent about commiting to this...)

Looking at Kiro/Zakeri though, I feel like this is most likely. Zakeri has almost completely dodged the Kiro vs Nietz issue, which is VERY strange given it's the game's most prominent standoff, but when he did say anything he was directing more negative attention towards Nietz. Also he followed the pattern of taking a soft stance on me with Kiro, but has suddenly shifted to the offensive now that I've claimed. He was also uninterested in voting wrathie, same as Kiro. His arguments are a bit different but his voting pattern matches Kiro's.

Zakeri being scum relies on my theory of Kiro being scum, though, so I don't feel like I can push very hard on him at the moment.

I think this is the best analysis I can make at the moment.
##Vote Kiro.

[Kiro]

wrathie: To answer your question, it's already in one of the quoted sections of your own post.

Stuffman: So you think it's just a mere coincidence that I'm going on you after you put your case on me? I'm just telling it as I see it; I had those thoughts about you after reading your roleclaim and by the time my post came together, I had to respond to the case you subsequently put on me. This particular point has no merit.

I get that a policy lynch is viable early, but your two statements in #96 and #126 don't have any personal opinions about why wrathie is actually more scummy before considering him being a policy lynch. Going right into stating it's a policy lynch is bad which is what I wanted to point out.

Being aggressive towards people who've made cases against me doesn't mean that I've ignored other people or is even scummy. If I think they have Townie motivations, I'm not going to OMGUS them. The problem is these cases you're alluding to are no good. In particular to your case, it's just drawing up points, and it fits your theory, but you're not really saying why your theory is the correct one or at least why it fits better than a Scum case on Nietz. Even you calling me "weird" as a validation over Nietz in your last post doesn't mean much.

Mass prayer: We don't know if it's a bad idea or not because we still don't know what it does. It's a facet of the game used by Crawlers so it can't be all bad. My post was to open up discussion about it, but the idea has long gone cold.

Zakeri: Despite only being on Xan for all of Day 1, he contributed some good points that are reasonably balanced. Highlighted some of the skepticism about Stuffman earlier than I did, particularly the angles regarding the quickened Xan lynch which I had not factored in earlier. And I do believe he took a side on my argument with Nietz so I don't see the problem there. Not nearly as suspicious as Nietz or Stuffman.

Roukanken: There's not a lot of vote movement on his part. wrathie, then Xan in the rush, then nothing else right now. He is not standing out at all compared to anybody else and his arguments seem sound for the most part. Highly wager him as Town, not much else to it.

I'm not seeing the case on Nietz gain traction and the recent posts have changed my opinions on who his scumbuddy would be. Your roleclaim has no innate proof within it and you look so eager to have yourself cleared as a result of it. There isn't that much you've done and your case on me is using faults that can also be applied to Nietz equally except for the mass prayer, so why me? I'm good on having you lynched today then.

##Unvote Nietz
##Vote Stuffman

[Edible]

Oh god don't make me do it don't make me do it don't make me do it.

>:|

##unvote
##vote Stuffman

[Pesco]

Abyss Vote Count

Wrathie (0): Edible
Nietz (0): Kiro
Kiro (0): wrathie
Stuffman(3): Zakeri, Wrathie, Kiro, Edible
Edible (0): Wrathie

Not voting: Roukanken, Nietz, Stuffman

Scene in a moment. Let me take Stuffman through a few levels of Crawl.

[FinnKaenbyou]

o_O

I leave for a school prizegiving and come back to another quicklynch?

I'm willing to buy Stuffman's claim.  It obviously fits with his actions this game, and the alternative (lying, and therefore scum) is really hard to swallow.

And you hammered Stuff with about 24 hours to spare. Let me be the first to ask what the hell.

[Pesco]

47 Stuffman the Covered (level 1, -29/16 HPs)
             Began as a Hill Orc Fighter on June 4, 2009.
             Was the Champion of Beogh.
             Killed from afar by a Green Death (30 damage)
             ... with a bolt of poison
             ... in The Abyss on June 10, 2009.
             The game lasted 00:01:21 (62 turns).

Stuffman the Covered (Hill Orc Fighter)            Turns: 62, Time: 00:01:25

HP -29/16        AC  8     Str 18      Exp: 1/0 (25), need: 10
MP   0/0         EV  6     Int  5      God: Beogh ******
Gold 47          SH  7     Dex 11      Spells:  0 memorised,  0 levels left

32 Wrathie the Magician (level 1, -4/6 HPs)
             Began as a High Elf Wizard on June 4, 2009.
             Was an Initiate of Sif Muna.
             Slain by a white imp (7 damage)
             ... in The Abyss on June 10, 2009.
             The game lasted 00:05:50 (48 turns).

Wrathie the Magician (High Elf Wizard)             Turns: 48, Time: 00:05:54

HP  -4/6         AC  2     Str  7      Exp: 1/0 (24), need: 14
MP   5/5         EV 11     Int 19      God: Sif Muna
Gold 32          SH  0     Dex 13      Spells:  1 memorised,  5 levels left

30 Nietz the Sneak (level 1, -1/10 HPs)
             Began as a Kobold Stalker on June 4, 2009.
             Was an Initiate of Kikubaaqudgha.
             Killed from afar by a white imp (11 damage)
             ... with a puff of frost
             ... in The Abyss on June 10, 2009.
             The game lasted 00:01:21 (42 turns).

Nietz the Sneak (Kobold Stalker)                   Turns: 42, Time: 00:01:23

HP  -1/10        AC  3     Str  8      Exp: 1/0 (25), need: 10
MP   5/10        EV 13     Int 11      God: Kikubaaqudgha
Gold 30          SH  0     Dex 16      Spells:  1 memorised,  1 level left

Best Crawlers

1.	1336	Serpentarius	NaHe-8	slain by a orc wizard (D:8)
2.	487	Xan	SpTr-5	starved to death (D:10)
3.	47	Stuffman	HOFi-1	blasted by a Green Death (Abyss)
4.	32	Wrathie	HEWi-1	slain by a white imp (Abyss)
5.	30	Nietz	HOFi-1	blasted by a white imp (Abyss)

I think that makes for a conclusive win by the Rune guardians, Edible, Kiro and Zakeri.

Jan-san as Vehumet, the patron god of Kiro also wins. (By doing nothing the whole time >_>)

[Edible]

No Zot for you.

[Jana]

Hooray.jpg

[Edible]

I get the feeling that there's some sort of balance hiccup I'm missing here.  pesco, can you shed some more light on this game?

[Nietz]

XP? What the heck do you mean by XP, there's no mention of anything like that in the rules.

XP: eXperience Points. RPG lingo. Basically, I assumed from this god post that players could get experience and "level up", and I hypothesized that things like being in a scum lynch or not being in a town lynch would earn you some. (At least I thought it would be a neat idea for a setup.)

this line seems funny to me... seeing how Kiro addressed it earlier... if he was willing to brush the issue away he would not have gone further to ask you the same question..

Kiro made the initial remark and vote, but at the point he likely though it wouldn't have much repercussion. Afterwards he only addressed the issue in response to pressure from me. And, even though I was more focused on Kiro than Rou, instead of slipping away he came back to nag me about it again, which would be an entirely unnecessary thing for scum trying to avoid attention. So far I find Rou to be the most townie-looking in the game.

Stuffman I have commented already. While it's not impossible for him being scum, I believe it's improbable.

Edible was very aggressive and tunneled on wrathie on Day 1. He seemed very determined on lynching wrathie, which had a very real possibility of happening, so it looks like he genuinely expected wrathie to flip scum. On the other hand, it was wrathie. In case he had been lynched and flipped town he's the one player that afterwards you can always argue looked scummy enough to warrant a lynch.
I raised an eyebrow at him bringing on an already discussed point in #118, but looking closely, that happened while he was inactive so it's possible that he overlooked it.
His opinions on Kiro vs. Nietz seem sound for an observer's view, I guess. Though I can argue that bringing town-Xan to L-1 and imminent lynch wouldn't really have been a good move if I was scu GODS DAMMIT!! THANKS FOR MAKING ME WASTE MY WALL!

 

[Pesco]

Roles: Stuffman and Rou as 1-shot bulletproof. All other players were vanilla.

Deadline was practically non-existent. Scum had a limited number of kills (3) to use the entire game to bring the number of townies to below their number. 1v1 results in a draw. The kills could all be used up in one go if so desired, a cooldown of 48 hours was required between kills. First kill was available at 60 hours into game time.

##pray did absolutely nothing other than amuse me.

Gods and who they are in charge of.
UK as Xom for Xan
Taiyou as Beogh for Stuffman
Umu as Sif Muna for Wrathie
Jan-san as Vehumet for Kiro
Kanako Yasaka as Evilyon for Serpentarius
Kilgamayan as Kikubaadgha for Nietz

Special god: TSO (the admin) as TSO for Roukanken.

[Pesco]

I get the feeling that there's some sort of balance hiccup I'm missing here.  pesco, can you shed some more light on this game?

You guys were supposed to hit the bulletproofs (which you lynched instead and missed respectively). I expected the gods to work harder at protecting their followers. Extra scumhunting power afforded them was not used at all.

[Nietz]

3 rune guardians? I really didn't see that coming. At least I had the three of them at the top of suspicion list, but I guess we were screwed anyway.

I expected the gods to work harder at protecting their followers. Extra scumhunting power afforded them was not used at all.

Yeah. Were was my god before? _{Maybe I should have prayed?}

[Jana]

I guess that one of the other kills was the mafian kill and the other was a vig or something. We'll have to wait for Pesco to post everything, though.

Cut by Pesco: I'll just wait to see the moves used, then.
Oh, and I was totally hoping something would happen if Kiro used Pray.

2nd cut: So, the gods were also meant to help as scumhunters? (In my case, scumbuddy?)

Actually, it'd be more accurate to say we were supposed to balance discussion away from our followers, and I'll admit I was a bit worried for Kiro back there. Still, not much I can do with my Wii.

[Pesco]

3 rune guardians? I really didn't see that coming. At least I had the three of them at the top of suspicion list, but I guess we were screwed anyway.
Yeah. Were was my god before?

Your god joined the party late.

It was a little flavour hint calling scum the rune guardians. You need 3 runes to enter the realm of Zot. Therefore, kill 3 guardians for 3 runes.

[Stuffman]

Well at least I had two out of three.

But 3 scum in a 9 player game come on ;_;

[FinnKaenbyou]

whut

3 scum in a 9 player game? With no warning of LYLO? T_T

##pray did absolutely nothing other than amuse me.

You know, I'm amazed by how bastard moddy this game is, even by Pesco's standards.

I should've called out Edible and Zak more, but Stuff's point on Edible made a lot of sense (But unfortunately turned out to be completely wrong -_-) and of course I was distracted by the Nietz/Kiro fight. It just seemed so goddamn petty that I was convinced it was scum/scum attention seeking. It didn't help I was barking up the wrong tree with Nietz, either. >_>
Honorary scum is, as always, Wrathie for voting Stuff EVEN AFTER HE CLAIMED BP.

So what the hell happened to me? Am I still Crawling or did TSO get me out with AdminHax?

[Kiro]

Even with Pesco's explanation of the setup, Scum is still way overpowered. The 6/3 ratio and kill setup only really gives Town 1 free mislynch. And our team was conservative enough to not blow all our kills at once, yet still had the option of throwing in a double kill at the end which helped negate the 2 bulletproof advantage when we lynched one. And I clearly benefitted this game from my scumbuddy support after I recklessly went all in on Nietz. I don't blame Town's frustration over this, I'd feel the same way in their shoes.

I'm burnt out thinking about this game, I'll have a better postgame report after I get some work I have due tonight done.

[Pesco]

You guys were technically in LyLo the whole game. Scum can post their QT themselves. I was quite happy to see them considering to kill Rou for their first shot but offing Serp proved good. The final hope for salvation was to lynch Kiro. Give him some cred for swinging Wrathie off himself to engineer the mislynch of town's other trump.

[Stuffman]

Figures that a game of Crawl would be almost impossible to win :V

So like, scum, was I right that you figured out I was bulletproof and hit Serp to lynch me instead? Or was Serp's death for some other purpose?

[Edible]

Figures that a game of Crawl would be almost impossible to win :V

So like, scum, was I right that you figured out I was bulletproof and hit Serp to lynch me instead? Or was Serp's death for some other purpose?

I was suspicious of your role and your willingness to show it off, but mostly it was because you were acting scummier than everyone else but wrathie.  I nuked Serp over Rou/Nietz/etc because he's brutally effective as town, and I wanted to dump more suspicion on you (his focus of interest) and wrathie (his vote target).  He also *usually seems to be a power role; I'm glad he wasn't this game for obvious reasons.

http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/HEDyGBrPwa5cX

[Ionasal kkll Solciel]

Nietz: You can't take everything the gods say for granted.  I had as much knowlege about the whole thing as [the actual crawlers] did.

[WRATHIE_Beatrice]

over. yay \o/

No thanks to me =P

but at least Kiro was not stuck as town and Nietz was not stuck as town.

Would like to hammer more on Edible, as usual but seeing my track record at failing to press my argument, that was meh.

Whatever, never playing mafia for the rest of my life.

[Stuffman]

Whatever, never playing mafia for the rest of my life.

That's what I said last time. You might even say that you're bound to come crawling back! :V

And what Taiyou said is true, I wouldn't have trusted any of the gods even if they were active.

[WRATHIE_Beatrice]

not when it:

1. Raises my Blood pressure
2. Am always misunderstood or never taken seriously
3. Better off dead than alive in most cases
4. Takes up 4 hrs just reading and posting 1 single post that get bashed so hard that it's basically a non-post.

Well, gj Kiro and team...
I got 2/3 of the scumteam but as usual, i can never press my arguments

[UncertainJakutten]

Yeah, that sucked. It's not like I could really help play the game for Xan anyway as restricted as my time was.

[Nietz]

Nietz: You can't take everything the gods say for granted.  I had as much knowlege about the whole thing as [the actual crawlers] did.

Yeah, I got carried away a little because I thought it was a neat idea (maybe I'll use it myself sometime). But in the end it was just one more reason for me not to get into a wagon I didn't like.