Rune guardians 5 - Crawlers 0 GAME OVER

[WHMZakeri]

alright, too lazy to bring up my notes, so I'll just put everything I find in this post.

alright then, assuming Serps death was really a night kill, I'm guessing their kills work on a timed setup. which means that whether or not we make any more lynches, we're getting more nightkills. I don't see a reason to jump to conclusions about what besides scum can kill without notice. Especially since we've yet to see hide nor hair of a deadline today.

Stuffman: 140 - Votes Wrathie, says he'll try to use his power soon. Also, seems certain that Serp's death was not scum related.
144 - seems even more worried about the death thing.

Nothing particularly scummy from Rou, except 147 by itself stands out in terms of weirdness and crackpot theoryness.

Rou and Wrathie both jump on Xan. Not certain what Wrathie was thinking since last I checked, he thought I was scummy for how I went about attacking Xan. This should be clearified. Rou on the other hand follows naturally from his turn day one, so that's not scummy to me.

Edible's case on Wrathie is good, but it's starting to get outdated. I'm willing enough to lynch Wrathie based on his play so far, but I'm not sure how far Edible's willing to take it.

Although, Wrathies OGMUS after Xan was hammered gives him major suspicion points.

Stuffman's 155 and 162 ... Umm, I know you were probably scared from the deadline thing, but the promise and then followup of hammer without regards to whether Xan is scum or not seems out of place.

168 and 170 both show worry that he would vote wrathie, but doesn't want scum both jumping on the wagon suspiciously. Why would you vote for Wrathie if you're worried about the two scum who are apparently neither you nor Wrathie would quicklynch him. You also show more worry about non-scum related NKes. Affinity responds to this, and all you acknowledge about it is that praying apparently doesn't activate your role.

I'm basically inclined to vote Stuffman right now in spite of his 177. IIoA in that none of it seems like it's connected to any evidence. Both this and his post yesterday that had thoughts on others were similar in this respect. This isn't even considering that the person who died due to what was likely a scum NK was the only person giving Stuffman weighted pressure.

##Vote: Stuffman

[Stuffman]

Okay.

I apologize for my frenetic behavior over last night, what you've witnessed is the reaction to my perception of the setup getting turned upside down. Up until 170, my impression was that Serp was randomly modkilled by pesco because we were past deadline, and that we needed to lynch somebody and get to the next day ASAP before more random kills happened. Then Affinity made his 169, clarifying that scumkills happen during the day, so I decided to go to bed and reevaluate the game.

My current perception of the setup is as you said, where scum don't kill at twilight but rather in timed intervals. This makes sense because there's no mention of twilight in the initial rules, when I'm pretty sure it had been mentioned before in other nightless games.

I don't feel like I should have to defend myself for hammering Xan. Again, Xan wasn't a bad target for a lynch; this board is very familiar with what happens when you fail to follow through on lynching lurkers. Meanwhile, my perception of what to do about wrathie has shifted along with my perception of the game. While he may not be scum he is certainly a liability to town, which makes him a half-policy lynch target. The problem is that I no longer think we have the safety margin to execute policy lynches. Wrathie would have been a great lynch yesterday, not so good today. Also, the fact that he is such an easy target makes me think scum would try to capitalize on that in the event that he is town, which is why I'm suddenly reluctant to vote him and speed that along.

More stuff in a bit. I need to decide whether to full claim.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Okay, lots and lots and lots to comment on here.

Firstly, the Xan lynch. I'd like to express my haet to Pesco for whatever the hell happened to Serp, because it rushed us into a lynch. I would have liked it if we'd had time to at least get a claim of some sorts from Xan, but I suppose given the paranoia about more people getting knocked off it's sort of understandable.
I don't regret my part of the Xan lynch whatsoever - he was genuinely posting more or less nothing of use, and even when directly asked to explain himself he just spammed.

Now, onto the living:

Stuffman really needs to claim fully now. His 'I have a role related to praying' point basically got trashed at the start of D2 (? I'm not sure how phases work in this game), so his claim's looking a lot iffier.

Kiro vs. Nietz is The Big Fight That No-One Else Is Talking About. It irritates me in that the pair of them are starting to tunnel each other a little and that the fight seems to pull out new angles all the time without either side slipping up. They've been at it since we made it out of the RVS, which makes me worry about it potentially being orchestrated.
It annoys me in that neither of them are producing much on anyone besides each other, and we'd probably benefit in general if Nietz and Kiro had to spend the next 24 hours not talking about each other. Surely by now the point's been argued to death?

Edible has said he'll deliver later, so I'm waiting on that before I pass judgement on him. I agree with being slightly tunnely on Wrathie D1, but besides that he seems relatively clean.

Zak gives some opinions in 180, but interestingly he misses out the Nietz/Kiro argument entirely. This is strange, especially since here he said he wanted more pressing on Nietz in particular. Why the change?

Wrathie is still a bundle of ARGH and GRAH. Seconding Edible's request for your vote reasoning.

For now I'll refrain from voting, because there's a few things I'm waiting on:
- Current opinions from Nietz and Kiro on ANYONE OTHER THAN EACH OTHER
- Stuffman's fullclaim
- Edible's promised reread
- Why Zak dropped the Nietz/Kiro fight
- Wrathie's reasoning for voting Edible

Based solely on the duration of the fight arising from ONE GODDAMN POINT, I'm relatively sure that at least one of Nietz/Kiro is scum. Nietz leads ever so slightly given his jump on Xan and that he's tunneling a little harder than Kiro is.
Potential other partners are Wrathie (note Nietz's insistence in several places not to lynch Wrathie - here he pulls out 'Wrathie looks like a good policy lynch, but I don't want to make a policy lynch'), or possibly Zak for brushing over the case so harmlessly.

[Stuffman]

Upon consideration, I think I realize what's happened, so I might as well full claim and confirm what I suspect most of you have already figured out.

For those of you that haven't, let's have a recap of yesterday.

"HEY GUYS GUESS WHAT, I'VE GOT A REALLY NEAT ROLE! I THINK I MIGHT NEED TO PRAY TO ACTIVATE IT BUT I DON'T WANT TO DO IT BY ACCIDENT, SO CAN SOMEBODY PRAY FOR ME? OH, PRAYING DIDN'T DO ANYTHING FOR YOU? OKAY, I GUESS MAYBE I DO NEED TO PRAY THEN, I'LL KEEP IT IN MIND! WHAT'S THAT? I'VE EXPOSED MYSELF TO SCUM? DON'T WORRY, I'M SURE TOWN WILL PROTECT ME WITH THEIR ROLES (DESPITE THIS SUPPOSEDLY BEING A ROLE-LIGHT GAME), SCUM WON'T DARE TOUCH ME! BUT GEE, IT SURE WOULD BE AWFUL IF SCUM KILLED ME BEFORE I GOT A CHANCE TO USE MY NEAT ROLE."

I'm a one-shot bulletproof. I just wanted to get scum to target me. If a town investigator happened to see something, bitchin', but the point was just to get the mileage out of my role.

What's happened here is that I obviously came on too strong and scum saw right through it. I'm betting a lot of town did too, given how surprisingly little hard resistance I encountered, but they kept quiet hoping scum would fall for it. I figure Serp was killed because they want it to look like it was a part of a scum-me agenda, so they can just lynch me if they want to instead. Since Zakeri was the first one to bring this up I'm not so positive he's town anymore.

Now, it is worth noting that all that stuff about praying was not just for show; the flavorful way in which my role was described suggested that I might not die when killed, which made me wonder if I only had a random chance of surviving or if I had to do something special to make it work. Since there's a god in Crawl that can prevent death while you're praying, there was a possibility that was it. But Pesco's response to my prayer makes me think my bulletproof is just always on since Beogh isn't the god in question. I didn't think it was that likely but I was also just morbidly curious what praying would do.

So yeah, I'm not going to be killed this game, unless town lynches me.

[UncertainJakutten]

Oh, Xan died. That's entertaining. I actually missed the lynch. You all suck.

Also, laughing at Stuffman because I can.

[FinnKaenbyou]

UK: Touching.

Stuff's claim...actually makes quite a lot of sense in retrospect. It didn't work, but I can understand why he did what he did and I'm willing to clear him.

And now I have absolutely no idea what praying actually does. >_>

[FinnKaenbyou]

EBWOP: Though Stuff, I will note that now you've got past the whole mystery role thing it's probably a good idea to start focusing on giving opinions on other players.

[Stuffman]

Yeah, I know, I'm thinking.

I try insane gambits because I'm not actually very good at the whole scumhunting thing :V

[WRATHIE_Beatrice]

I woke up.

@Stuff: Thank you, now we can sorta rule you out as scum... sorta.
Bulletproof is again kinda meh... but I understand why you insist on not  being called a power-role...

I'm not 100% convinced but I'll give it a pass today.

Oh yes, do you know if you are targeted? For all we know you could have been targeted and had survived.


@Rou & Edible:
My main gripe has been addressed by Kiro, you're still relying on Day1 page 1 analysis to call me scum. If you have any additional questions feel free to answer.

I voted for Xan to prod him to see if he will reply instead of lurking and was considering asking the mods to prod him or for him to seek for a replacement.

I unvoted when it became apparent that Xan was going to be quick-lynched when i wanted something from him, that is all but apparently it was too little, too late.

Zak need to comment on Nietz and Kiro, now.

For me, personally I'll wait for Nietz to reply for why he voted for Xan.

and yes, the argument seems orchestrated, focusing on their earlier argument and ignoring other points about one another.
Funny enough that Kiro commented on the others but regarding Nietz I have the feeling he has a one-tracked mind.

Viewing it in that light I feel Kiro has a slightly scummier feel to him than Nietz.
Besides, it is one of the rare games Kiro did not actually scum-hunt as aggressively.

Voting to put some pressure

##unvote
##vote: Kiro

[Nietz]

Yeah, I figure I have to address the rest of the game some more.
But I'll have to do it later when I'm not stupid tired and can think straight.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Wrathie: Yeah, explain what exactly you've done D2 to shift those suspicions. As for what you've done:

- Stupid JUST AS PLANNED selfvote crap in RVS is instant WIFOM
- Afterwards, offering little to conversation for first 2/3rds of D1 besides defending yourself - little to no actual scumhunting
- Eventual WoTs, strange 'I messed up but you're guilty for pointing it out' attack on me
- Wanting to lynch Stuff despite his claim
- AtE by the bucketload later on (For the record since you asked and I don't know if anyone answered, AtE stands for Appeal to Emotion and it's basically acting angry or upset to gain pity)
- Exploding at Edible
- Trying to pass off all of the above as meta/D1 arguments and therefore useless

[Stuffman]

I started making this list to examine Kiro and Nietz. Here I'm going to catalogue what they've done that hasn't involved each other.

Kiro 28: Suggests mass prayer and has no problem whatsoever with my claim. Huh?
Kiro 38: Is forgiving towards wrathie, but asks for a response on his self-vote in addition to Nietz.
Nietz 59: Is also forgiving towards wrathie, complains about mass prayer.
Kiro 66: Doesn't like Xan or me being targets of Zakeri and Serp.
Kiro 70: Is still somewhat behind mass prayer.
Kiro 82: Pokes wrathie and Zakeri.
Nietz 83: Pokes Edible and Zakeri.
Nietz 87: Selfvote issue, but responding to Serp this time. Opinion on wrathie shifts towards the negative.
Nietz 100: Pokes Edible and Xan. Agrees to extension (but almost everyone did)
Kiro 102: Pokes wrathie. Still supports me. Also agrees to extension
Nietz 123: Is now defending against Rou on selfvote issue. More negative toward wrathie and Xan.
Kiro 125: Pokes Rou and Xan. Still supporting me.
Nietz 161: Decides to lynch Xan.
Kiro 173: Setup speculation. Pokes wrathie, feels more positive about him. More negative towards Edible. Pokes Zakeri.

So as I was putting this together, I was expecting to look for patterns or to show how minimal their activity outside of each other has been, but uh...you know, actually there are very few posts where they don't take the time to address other issues going on. Their mutual tunneling might be being blown a little out of proportion. Maybe they really are just both town with opposing philosophies...but maybe not. I'm not sure what to make of this, what do the rest of you guys think?

I think Kiro is being, uh, a little TOO forgiving, having taken very soft stances on controversial players like me and wrathie. Might be trying to avoid confrontation with everyone outside of Nietz, which I don't think looks good.

Nietz is perfectly happy to take down easy targets like Xan or wrathie, but uh I am too so I'm not sure what to say about that.

What's interesting is that they are totally opposite on the issue of wrathie, in that Kiro supports him and Nietz wants him dead. Careful examination of wrathie might yield some sort of connection with one or the other. I'm going to think on that for a bit.

Oh, during the reread, one thing I found very interesting is Edible's flat out denial for an extension. This strikes me as very town since obviously scum would know that an extension would be good for them, so he's back in the green for me.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Oh, during the reread, one thing I found very interesting is Edible's flat out denial for an extension. This strikes me as very town since obviously scum would know that an extension would be good for them, so he's back in the green for me.

This is something I never considered, and it's a very strong point. Nice catch.

Still feel that Nietz/Kiro could at least spend more time on other players, though. >_>

[Stuffman]

Oh yes, do you know if you are targeted? For all we know you could have been targeted and had survived.

I considered this possibility until Affinity said straight up that scumkills happen during day, not twilight. I asked pesco whether I would know if I was shot and he responded with a short comment that either meant "no" or "I'm not telling you". I'll assume no. It's a bit moot since I'm sure scum won't try to shoot me now.

---

Okay, thinking a little more, I've got some pretty heavy suspicion on Kiro. My scum Kiro theory is that he would be attempting to passively guide town into screwing itself with bad play by icing good players and supporting bad ones.
- He defended me (yes I can see that I was stupid now) and wrathie basically whole-heartedly
- he suggested and continued to support the mass prayer which may have amounted to a mass claim
- supported the extension (minor, but there it is)
- if scum, killed someone who was taking a strong stance against risky play
- has only been aggressive towards Nietz, who was the only person most aggressive towards him
- was not on the Xan train despite him being lurktastic and not helpful to town (but maybe just wasn't around at that time...)
- has a surprisingly specific idea of how scum schedule operates in 173 (this is also kind of a weak point since speculation is natural, but it would fit with my theory so I'm mentioning it)

He's got two votes on him already. Zakeri/Rou/Edible, thoughts on my theory?

[Stuffman]

Oh and one other strong point I just realized is that he has been hammering Nietz forever about this self-vote thing but has totally left wrathie alone.

[UncertainJakutten]

I'm bored.

Rou, you will obtain 6 random mutations.

Enjoy.

[FinnKaenbyou]

- was not on the Xan train despite him being lurktastic and not helpful to town (but maybe just wasn't around at that time...)

This point I don't understand. If Xan was scum it'd make more sense, really, but I'm not sure how it works since he's Town.

Point on the mass prayer is definitely noted, and the Wrathie/Nietz differentiation suggests a possible Kiro/Wrathie pairing which I don't disagree with. Kiro, did you give Nietz more attention simply because he argued back, or did he do something else to make him more worth your time than Wrathie?

Currently fine with a Kiro/Nietz/Wrathie lynch. Really really torn as to who I'd want to lynch the most.

UK ninja: Uh, yay?

[Stuffman]

This point I don't understand. If Xan was scum it'd make more sense, really, but I'm not sure how it works since he's Town.

No no, see, that's the thing. Following my theory, scum Kiro wants good players lynched and bad players alive. Xan was being a bad player so Kiro would want him alive, so that would be why Kiro wouldn't touch him.

Also...I think I'm starting to consider town wrathie, reason being his giant AtE. From any normal player yes it'd be ridiculous, but wrathie's not an actor. To me it looks like he really got upset, which could be a natural reaction from a townie getting slammed. I don't think he would be capable of pulling that off as scum and I don't think he would get that frustrated about it if he was scum either. Yes he is a terrible player and often oblivious but bad play does not necessarily equal scummy play.

I'm not sure who Kiro's partner would be, I'm thinking about that now. It'd have to be someone whose voting patterns don't interfere with Kiro's strategy.

[Edible]

I'm willing to buy Stuffman's claim.  It obviously fits with his actions this game, and the alternative (lying, and therefore scum) is really hard to swallow.

I'm in the middle of my Kiro+Nietz readthrough, and noticed something interesting that I'd like to post before dropping a wall.  It concerns Kiro's mass-pray idea.

But I think the praying thing looks more town because scum wouldn't usually rush so readily into something that can potentially hurt them.

Coupled with asking for a mass "pray-claim", I think it does look pretty bad.
So, ##Vote Kiro seems the best so far.

... Zuh?  The first quote is being applied to wrathie, where experimentation is good and a town-tell.  The second quote is being applied to Kiro, where experimentation is bad and a scum-tell.

?\(?дo)/?

[WHMZakeri]

Stuffman is a bulletproof. That's ... nice I guess? That still doesn't excuse half of the stuff you did.

There are only two ways of playing Bulletproof - the first is to play so horribad as to psuedo-role claim that you cause WiFoM upon WiFoM, add nothing to scumhunting, pretend you're setup speculating and barely commenting on any of the other people that you leave yourself open to get mislynched in the hopes that being a shiny powerrole will distract the Scum long enough to send in a kill rather than plan out the mislynch. The second, of course, is just to play at your best and scare them into NKing you before you lynch them all. Not impressed with the choice you made.

And just because you claim you can't be killed by the night hit doesn't mean it's not because you control it. Vote stands ... for now at least.

I ##Pray to god there would be some light shed on if Stuffman was lying about his role or not.

Zak gives some opinions in 180, but interestingly he misses out the Nietz/Kiro argument entirely. This is strange, especially since here he said he wanted more pressing on Nietz in particular. Why the change?

There was, like, half a bajillion words between the two of them, and since I was focusing on stuffman mostly, the words kept flying out of my head the moment they flew in. You're right though, since I asked for it, I shouldn't be skipping over it.

[Edible]

I'm getting really sick of connectivity issues.  I still have part of my analysis in notepad, but I lost enough of it that I'm not going to be able to finish it until after I get home.

So screw it, have a summary.

My biggest concern with Kiro is that he's very defensive.  Starting from #70, his sparring with Nietz turns into WoTs, which is worrisome.  I'm not sure how worrisome, because he has a long track record of sparring with Nietz (and vice-versa), but it's there nonetheless.  I did see some genuine scumhunting from Kiro, though.  Some of Stuffman's logic re: Kiro I find flawed, but it does interest me enough to have my suspicions officially raised.  I've got my eye on him.

I think I've said this before, but Nietz raises my hackles more than Kiro, and this remains true after my readthrough... but not as much as it did previously.  I feel Nietz is even more singleminded than Kiro (bad), but is more offensive (as opposed to Kiro's defensive; good).  Nietz also has had some conflicting opinions on things (such as my previous post).  Finally, Nietz put the Xan-train to L-1, which is another point against him.

It's really a tossup between the two, but the scum scales tip towards Nietz because it's possible he hopped on Xan's train to encourage Stuffman to hammer.

Neither cause my scum-dar to ping more than wrathie, but if it came down to it I'd probably be willing to lynch either one.

... That looked better when I had it all pretty. :<  Oh well.

[Stuffman]

I ##Pray to god there would be some light shed on if Stuffman was lying about his role or not.

I really hope this is an actual ability of yours because if I get to be an invincible confirmed townie that will be awesome.

[Affinity]

Lair of Beasts:2 Vote Count

Wrathie (1): Edible
Nietz (1): Kiro
Kiro (1): wrathie
Stuffman(1): Zakeri
Edible (0): Wrathie

Not voting: Roukanken, Nietz, Stuffman
With 7 players remaning, it takes 4 to lynch.

[Pesco]

##pray

You spend a moment contemplating the meaning of life.

@Affinity: Give Rou 6 mutations please.

[Kiro]

Stuffman: I haven't talked much about you because I had said Scum probably wouldn't risk doing something like fake roleclaiming so early in the game and wouldn't have made so blatant an error at being unable to activate their role after revealing it. Now that you say you're a 1-shot Bulletproof, I think that makes you look both better and worse. It makes sense you'd try to draw the NK on you the way you went about things early on. At the same time, you said it yourself, the only way "you say" you can die now is by being lynched. That would be a true statement if you're Scum anyways faking the role. I can't underestimate the chance now that you floundering around with your ability not working would have been a good gambit because you probably wouldn't have tasted that first lynch and you just reveal it Day 2 without showing any proof of any real ability whatsoever. So yea, I was expecting anything EXCEPT a bulletproof.

So it comes down to scumminess on your part. And I'm finding stuff I didn't notice before. A lot of Day 1 for you revolves around explaining your roleclaim which isn't much on the scumhunting section. Your case on wrathie is actually surprisingly short (#96) unless I missed a post somewhere. #126 has you stating wrathie could "actually be scum and not just an excellent policy lynch" which gives the impression you were predisposed to just voting wrathie earlier because he's at best a useless Townie and at worst Scum. My opinion on that is neutral to bad because it shows a lack of actual scumhunting effort followed by a quick justification of it. The game speeds up pretty quick partially at your insistence after Serp's death and Xan is hammered by you. And after your roleclaim, it looks like you're in the clear, and you're finally producing actual cases although this one is hardly your own and you would probably take no blame in it being wrong. Those are the points I have against you. The roleclaim is a pretty powerful factor in your favor, but you are by no means cleared in my book.

Points you are putting against me in #193:
-I defended you on the grounds that when your role was revealed, it would inherently confirm you of being Town (like a Cop). The fact that your role can't actually be seen now and is passable as a falseclaim has to be considered now.
-I only advocated mass prayer once in #28 and spent a post #70 owning up to it. That's it on me talking about it so I'm not seeing when I continually supported it.
-We all supported the Extension more or less except Edible. I was one of the last people to vote for it though. If you want to single me out in some unique way for that, state it.
-I have no way of being able to respond to Serp's death.
-Aggression to Nietz stems from what I noticed as his unusual statement. His stubbornness in not realizing his own actions were worth looking over and that I am pressing him for laziness and disjointed scumhunting has kept him on me and having to respond to him.
-Not on Xan's train due to Lakers game.
-It's setup speculation in relation to time. I find the time aspect of online Mafia to be extremely important as pacing and time elapsed can give a good idea on behavior ingame.
- And, I'm not thrilled that you think I've ignored other people like wrathie (see #173).

To review on wrathie: his early stuff is flailing around and rather pointless self-lamentation. And we wait for a real contribution. All of that is vintage wrathie and I see it as neutral yet easy mislynch bait if he's Town. So what matters to me is when he finally makes a case. The case on Stuffman pretty much highlighted the problems with the WIFOM regarding the role which was a reasonable case even if I didn't agree with having him lynched on Day 1. Then he's willing to delay it and goes for Xan which was ok only in the sense that everyone easily switched to Xan. As for the Edible unvote, I don't see a problem with him pointing out that Edible had only been on him all day after lurking through most of it. For the vote on me, what do you mean that I am not aggressive enough this game when Nietz would argue that I'm overaggressive? Doesn't make any sense. Now I don't understand your vote on me and whether you're taking this particular vote seriously or not. Because suddenly, I see you trying to put steam on my wagon without really contributing anything original to it which is scummy. If that's the reaction you're looking for, then there you go.

---
Conclusion:

Stuffman's claim changed my impression of him, now more scummy after role revelation. Hard to say how much so; I'd like to see what he makes of my responses to determine if he's earnest or not. My points on wrathie still stand although I want a greater explanation for why there seems to be no real meaning behind your vote on me. Edible solely being on wrathie is still suspicious to me, but objectively, I'm finding it more difficult to fault him on this due to wrathie's inconsistency. Can't say I'm disappointed by his #198 either which is something I didn't notice. If you want opinions on Zakeri or Rou, ask and I'll find time to do it later.

[Nietz]

What's interesting is that they are totally opposite on the issue of wrathie, in that Kiro supports him and Nietz wants him dead.

I don't totally agree with that, I don't like the way wrathie's been playing (old news) but I have been reluctant to lynch him, for basically the same reasons you posited, an AtE coming from him has more of a town that a scum vibe to it.

... Zuh?  The first quote is being applied to wrathie, where experimentation is good and a town-tell.  The second quote is being applied to Kiro, where experimentation is bad and a scum-tell.

?\(?дo)/?

You know, this point has been addressed by Stuffman already, a good while ago.

About Stuffman's claim, for one I do agree with what Kiro said about claiming bulletproof, it's a role that can't be proved and provides a good excuse for not being scum-killed.
However, his actions from the start have been particularly consistent with his claim, including claiming not being sure how to activate his ability, which would make little sense if he ended up claiming an active ability. Also, doesn't seem very useful for scum to start playing an elaborate act like this so early when there wasn't any pressure on him (even Alice's humongously elaborate second-doc claim on Don't-remember-what Mafia only came when he was at risk of lynch).

Gotta catch a bus now, I'll be back later and reread some other players.

[WRATHIE_Beatrice]

@Kiro:
Voting to put pressure on you for starters and I find you distinctively lacking in input towards the other players in this game as compared to the others.

We've all joked about Kiro always being the first to be NK'd and well, that didn't happen today. But that's meta, so let's go on.


Upon re-reading, the starting point of Nietz and Kiro's argument was that Nietz was in the opinion that Kiro was making too much fuss over too little (Nietz jokevote) and voting for him as well as trying to look as if he was scumhunting by questioning Nietz.

Kiro's counter was that why would Nietz view him as trying too hard when he himself was voting Kiro due to HIS vote in the jokephase, which is essentially the same thing. Both players, taking each other's joke vote too seriously and trying to build a case that escalated from there.

Basically I like Kiro's reply to the mass prayer conspiracy theory..

On another note about this, I initially brought this point against Kiro and Rou, but later focused more on Kiro due to the masspraying stuff. While Rou could've let the thing slip by, he kept nagging me about it, which makes him look better to me. Kiro, however, feels like he just wants to brush the issue away after his initial reaction.

this line seems funny to me... seeing how Kiro addressed it earlier... if he was willing to brush the issue away he would not have gone further to ask you the same question..

It would help with Nietz would clarify this as I'm a bit confused.

added on with Kiro's point:

Nietz: What you said about someone pursuing your "obvious joke" self-vote and treating that person as "too serious" can also be turned around to you trying to make a spectacle and baiting such a person in a "gotcha" moment and then you have an easy line of attack to go after the person. That's not real scumhunting on your part because it's inconclusive given that kind of a setup. But like I said, what's irking me is not that, but that you accused not only me, who made the vote on you, but also Rou who merely touched on you. That statement was just a blanket, "I don't like people who are making an effort this early in the game," statement which looks too much like you're trying to get just anybody who mentioned your little ploy. That's just lazy and not really being contributive which ironically is what you were accusing Rou and me of doing.

My interpretation of this is that to Kiro, Nietz is attacking anyone who tries to ask him about his jokevote by calling them 'too serious in trying to scumhunt' and i agree with Kiro's sentiment that that is inconclusive as you are being superbly defensive and just attacking them back for trying to touch you and not actively contributing to the game.

Likewise, I like Nietz reply in that he stands firm on his view on not taking RVS too seriously for scumtells... and that Kiro is twisting his words by claiming that Nietz actively dislike anyone making an effort in the start of the game, when he dislikes all who tries to act as if they are making an effort at the start of the game

All this points to nitpicking and I'm not sure whether Nietz or Kiro are scum due to the conflict... it can be orchestrated as what others have said but it's quite a tough call... unless we view Nietz and Kiro are scumbuddies...

which is entirely plausible since most of us gave them a wide berth to argue it out.

anyways.. I see no reason to vote Kiro or Nietz yet.. I can't formulate a good case from their arguments as basically it's:

Kiro pressuring Nietz for his jokevote.
Nietz not taking it easy and slams Kiro and votes him for trying to be look as if he was scumhunting at the start of the game for Niet'z own jokevote on himself
Kiro not taking it easy as well and slams Nietz for trying to slam Kiro(himself) for voting for him(Nietz) for HIS(Kiro) own Joke vote at the start of the day.

If you understood that, it's a minor miracle... but to summarize even further. The argument was centered about Nietz and Kiro each viewing each other's joke vote as serious business and acting accordingly
Kiro is slightly scummier as I noticed Nietz's call on Kiro:

So now you're saying you want to lynch me not for being scummy, but for not agreeing with you?

It can and might be a misrep but i would like Kiro's confirm on this

If there is any case here, both of them are scum. if not, both are them are townies.. so

##unvote

HOWEVER, i have reason to believe LYLO is around the corner if we don't lynch scum this round.

7 players remaining and at the end of the day it's 5 players. Seeing how Serp died, it seems Scum can kill near the dateline or anytime at all.. which is not good.

One of us can be picked off at anytime so i'm going for broke...
I'm basically an easy lynch, anyone can vote to kill me without good reasoning...
For scum I am the ideal person at endgame... so I'll prolly be targeted last.

Roleclaim: Vanilla townie

and I'm voting stuffman.

I see too little contributions for him being a bulletproof and if he IS a bulletproof, too bad.. Scum won't kill him ANYWAY now that it is revealed that he is a bulletproof and would want him lynch asap

But I don't buy his call. On re-read Serp is the only person really actively pursuing Stuff with a case on his hands and although he seems to let up, he was killed with no further explanations and calls on anyone else... No one else really went after Serp and the only person Serp actually replied to was to Kiro and Nietz.
He provided good questioning for Nietz and Kiro and to me and was promptly killed off at that.

He didn't leave too much clues but seeing he only pressured this 3... i'm willing to think he was on to something before he got killed.

Stuff wouldn't die today, or tomorrow if we do not lynch him as it is.. Scum would be in no hurry to target him and.. conveniently he can't tell us whether he is targeted or not.
Swell... I don't want to risk this.

Kill Stuff and we'll talk about the rest later. if we leave Stuff behind, who is essential unkillable unless we do something about it, he might pull an Alice on us when it is too little too late.

By killing him we are taking a Large question mark out of the equation in my book and can focus on others.

It is up to you guys whether to trust my role claim but I'm raising the stakes right here, right now.

##vote: Stuffman

ninja'ed by Nietz: Hi, and this is my last post for the night... see you guys in 7-8 hrs...

[FinnKaenbyou]

I see too little contributions for him being a bulletproof and if he IS a bulletproof, too bad.. Scum won't kill him ANYWAY now that it is revealed that he is a bulletproof and would want him lynch asap

Note that you are trying to lynch him ASAP. Hrmmm... >_>
Plus there's really no point in anyone claiming vanilla Townie ever except at L-1. >_>

On another point, I'll note that once again Kiro and Nietz have taken opposite opinions on Stuff's claim. I'll leave Stuff to answer Kiro's case against him.

I'm really not sure what to think about Wrathie now. He's horrible, but it's almost too horrible. Nietz and Kiro seem to be trying almost too hard to oppose each other on every possible point they can, so my aura of scum/scum is starting to strengthen a little. Still believe Stuff's claim, since I don't see why the hell scum would make an unforced claim like that in early D1.

[Affinity]

wrathie's vote doesn't count because he didn't unvote.

EDIT:  Oh, my apologies.

[WRATHIE_Beatrice]

* wrathie coughs

##unvote
##vote: Stuffman