Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: Fightest on September 04, 2009, 07:07:57 AM

Title: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 04, 2009, 07:07:57 AM
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but a piece of music may be just as capable of detailing a character's personality and behaviour. I like to think that I know something about music, instrumentation and composition, so I'm putting together this thread to analyse characters' theme tunes and try to glean some personality from them.

I welcome everyone reading this thread to chip in - if you think that, say, Lunar Clock - Luna Dial's brutality mirrors Sakuya's attitude to everyone not her master, or The Venerable Ancient Battlefield's aloof, inapproachable nobility helps portray that of Kanako, then go ahead and post, even if you're not musically inclined. Otherwise I'm just writing to myself, and that feels awkward.

I will only go through the Windows games, as those are the ones I'm familiar with, starting with EoSD.

A few disclaimers first, however:
I won't be dealing with remixes (for the moment - this also includes chunks of IaMP and SWR) until I'm done with a game in question.  So I'll only get to EoSD remixes until I'm done with the EoSD core, for example. 
I feel I'm quite familiar with most of the characters presented in the games, both canon and fanon, and this will colour my interpretations of each character's piece. I'll try to keep this in mind, but if something feels off, I'd love to discuss.
I will only be analysing Boss themes, unless the Stage theme is appropriate, e.g. Alice's stage in PCB.
Of course, this is all opinion, so people are welcome to disagree.
Finally, I will attempt to be working under the assumption that ZUN knows what he's doing, 100% of the time, as questioning the creator will only lead to problems. However, I will also disagree with some of the pieces that characters have attached to them, on one basis or another. This doublethink will, no doubt, drive me mad, but eh, it's all in the spirit of fun.
I will separate posts as is convenient.


Major edit two!
Having finished every unique boss theme up to UFO, I'll link to my entries here. Links to individual analyses are either present, or analyses are in the original post; thanks go to to Lloyd Dunamis for taking the time to organise the individual links.

Perfect Cherry Blossom (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2084.msg82519#msg82519)

Immaterial and Missing Power (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2084.msg83316#msg83316)


Imperishable Night (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2084.msg85166#msg85166)

Phantasmagoria of Flower View (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2084.msg91384#msg91384)

Extra
Fightest Sign ~ Informed Recollection (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2084.msg94498#msg94498)

Mountain of Faith (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2084.msg98137#msg98137)

Scarlet Weather Rhapsody (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2084.msg110377#msg110377)

Subterranean Animism (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2084.msg117037#msg117037)

Undefined Fantastic Object (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2084.msg131896#msg131896)


So let's start! Embodiment of Scarlet Devil.

EoSD feels to me like ZUN is still trying to figure out his synthesiser. A lot of the themes are all over the place, and, honestly, are a bit hard to analyse.

Rumia's theme - Apparitions Stalk the Night

We are immediately blasted with arpeggios that seem more in place at a trance party than in a fantasy wonderland. This sort of sound produces a sense of intensity - there are no gaps to breathe, as it were, so the entire passage blazes past you, giving that feeling of "whoa". And right now I'm gonna disagree with ZUN. From what we know of Rumia, canonically, is she's a slightly airheaded youkai with the appearance of a little girl. She also likes to eat humans. Her power is to manipulate darkness, which is so absolute that she herself can't see through it, leading to hilarious flight mishaps. There's no room here for high-powered intensity - Rumia is more macabre than she is intense, to me.
Once these are done, the piece moves into a calmer xylophone and ZUN!trumpet melody. The melody never moves out of the higher octaves, has simple accompaniment and few key changes. The key here is the high-pitched simplicity, which, to me, does a far better job of showing ZUN's Rumia - straightforward, few complications, certainly no outright twists, with very little mention of her darker side. And that's what she is, ultimately, in the game - a straightforward challenge with few gimmicks, to get our heroines warmed up. In hindsight, perhaps those few opening arpeggios attempt to show the darker human-eating side of her, and don't quite succeed.

Cirno's theme - Beloved Tomboyish Girl

Heh. Far, far too elegant and melodic for the Cirno we know and love. I doubt even Cirno thinks she's as elegant as the piece seems to suggest. It certainly doesn't give off "the strongest" vibe, but that's a fanon thing, and wouldn't be present in the piece. The piece still has plenty of merit, though.
The introduction is filled with, well, pretty meaningless arpeggios interspersed with well-chosen electronic glassy sounds to give that association with ice. Played fully legato, it's a set of very melodic passages that suggest elegance. Cirno freezes frogs for fun and has trouble with arithmetics. Elegant she is not. I did say I wasn't going to examine remixes, but IOSYS' Perfect Math Class does a far better job, to me, of showing her character with simple, confident chords with plenty of non-legato to show a simple, confident character without much flow or elegance. On the other hand, her airheadedness is reflected by the arpeggios never really going anywhere, and just sort of milling about.
The main melody pretty much follows the same procedure, although is closer to IOSYS than the introduction - a more confident melody with more focus on each individual note than on the flow, without any strong key changes to keep it clean and simple. Again, the melody doesn't really go anywhere, and mills about, but doesn't appear worried about it - there are no suggestive cadences or even out-of-key notes. Thus we have our Cirno - confident about her self and her character, unconcerned with future developments and more focused on the here and now.

ChinaHong Meilin's theme - Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17.

I always found Hong Meilin's shticks conflicting - she has flower and rainbow-themed ranged attacks in the game, yet is usually portrayed as a martial artist who prefers to go at it close and personal. Yeah, yeah, Spell Card System. Fneh.
Anyway, my personal view is that this is a gorgeous piece, and really signifies the beginning of EoSD proper to me - ZUN has seemed to get a good grip on the music now, and is really using it to get flavour across. Or at least some pretty tunes.
Shanghai Alice is, to me, all about its mixing of Eastern and Western styles. The main melody, played by violins and...something plucked - you can't miss it - has an Oriental vibe to it which contrasts strongly with its own Western cadences and key changes. The melody is quite forceful in standing out above its accompaniment, and doesn't give much room to breathe, keeping the listener hooked without an opportunity to break the suspense. Texture-wise, we hear both melodic legato, and plucked staccato, the former on violin, the latter on that plucked thing, again showing the two worlds that conflict in this piece. Putting it all together, we get a Hong Meilin who is a personality that stands out, is part of two different cultures, yet takes the strongest aspects from both, combining them into something different. We get a powerful elegance and a careful precision. We get an intoxicating intensity.
[snark]Now if only more people portrayed her as thus, instead of as a submissive gate guard.[/snark]

Patchouli Knowledge's theme - Locked Girl - The Girl's Secret Room.

My favourite piece amongst all those in EoSD. Every time I hear it, I keep thinking, why this intensity? Why never a major key? Why such a heart-wrenching melody (not even mentioning the SWR orchestral remix)? And then I realise the context, and it cracks me up. You are beating up an anemic, asthmatic, short-sighted girl who always wears a nightdress, and rarely leaves her room in fear for her health. In any context, this is tragic by itself - that gives us the insistence on the minor key. She's going to bloody well fight back with everything she's got, her pride appears to come before her health - hence the intensity, both in music and spell patterns (god damn you non-directional lasers). The heart-wrenchingness comes from the desperate power in the melody - this is where the game comes first, music second - Patchy is a fantastic mage, with more spellcards than you can shake a stick at, all of them gorgeous, but she can only use them if her health permits - this feeling of being terminally crippled is mirrored in the melody. However, I always come back to the same conclusion - it's too tragic a melody. She is never portrayed by ZUN as being significantly hindered by her disabilities. Hell, we know she's ancient so we know she gets by pretty much fine. She's perfectly capable of showing initiative, as demonstrated in the games where she can be a protagonist. Perhaps if her disabilities were more important points in her narrative the melody would be more appropriate.

Next installment (when I feel up to it): Lunar Clock - Luna Dial, Septette for the Dead Princess and U.N. Owen was her
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 04, 2009, 11:18:38 AM
Aw, no replies? Surely it's not that boring a topic!  :(

Sakuya - Lunar Clock - Luna Dial

To me, this one always comes out of nowhere, compared to Shanghai Alice and Locked Girl. Here we get more of an electronic rock vibe than anything else. Unlike with Rumia, however, I feel this is totally appropriate - a sharp contrast to the previous two Boss themes suggests something very different, and the diminished chords poking out of the background in the introduction set us on the edge. Actually, much about the piece does this, the biggest aspect, to me, being that there's not really any distinctive melody for the entire first half, with a series of arpeggioes and broken chords in the second half suggesting a possible melodic development, but never properly coming to life before the track loops. It's hard for me to say if this shows anything about Sakuya herself, as opposed to providing a background for her unstructured and somewhat confusing spellcards. Perhaps, personality-wise, this shows unresolved conflict and aggression that Sakuya prefers to loose on the world than keep bottled up. The usual uninterrupted flow of sound that we get for most of the characters' themes is present in Lunar Clock, but has a very characteristic section of a few cadences of diminished chords, where the music stops, starts, stops (you know that bit, you can't miss it) - that attempts to trip up the listener. To me, this both reflects Sakuya's time-stopping tendencies, as well as, perhaps, showing a will to intentionally deceive and take advantage. What character do we get out of this? I would say cruel, willing to do unto others before others do unto her, unafraid of deceiving and manipulating to hurt, yet is also conflicted, unsure with where she's going, and not really able to resolve a path for the future.

Remilia Scarlet - Septette for the Dead Princess

I have trouble listening to this piece. First off, take the time to listen to the PCB stage 4 track ("Capital of Flowers in the Sky"), pay close attention at around the 1:00 mark, and especially the 1:10 mark. I played PCB before I played EoSD, and I was rather confused to hear that motif as the main theme in Septette, repeated all the time. Every time it crops up in Septette, I keep making that connection, and it distracts me from the actual piece. Additionally, I watched Cruel Sisters and the Suffering Maid a few too many times, and now I just can't listen to Septette without imagining the video and the song. Admittedly, it's hilarious, but it sure doesn't help in this particular exercise.

So, Septette for the Dead Princess, final boss theme. This piece oozes with personality. I'll split the piece into several parts to make my life easier. The first part, until about 1:09 has a repeating theme (that distracting one I mentioned) played with a single ZUN!trumpet, clearly standing out above the accompaniment. The melody is calm, precise, no-nonsense, with many strong notes, yet with a clear, smooth melodic line. This epitomises Remilia's aristocratic nature. This is the Remilia you see on first greeting - collected, firm, full of confidence and power. Perhaps a bit macabre or sinister, as illustrated by the diminished arpeggioes in the sections where the trumpet doesn't play. In fact, this is something that Remilia will certainly not hide - these sections are very clear, never hidden underneath a melody.
From 1:09 to about 1:22 we have a bit of a transition section. All in major, and characterised by piano chords following the ever-present smooth trumpet section - all somewhat throwing off the image that had just been set up, followed up with a, well, mischievous cadence at the very end. Let me explain that - cadences are chord progressions, and can be a way of changing key within a piece. There are a few different types, and evoke a specific mood of the transition, most tending to string the listener along with chord after chord before resolving into a satisfying new tonic chord. 1:22's cadence does exactly that...but then holds the melody off for a second, just a bit longer than it should, stringing the listener a long, leaving him to choke a bit, then continuing as if nothing had happened. Interpret that as you will, but I clearly see a Remilia who is able to effortlessly wind another around her finger by putting on unusual character airs, but only do so to tease, certainly nothing malevolent.
From then on we start off with a doubled trumpet to mirror the first part, but these are quickly drowned out by a piano improvisation that lasts until the track loops. Although not technically an improvisation, it's clearly intended to sound as such - a stream-of-consciousness release of emotion that doesn't care if it overshadows the previously-established aristocratic coolness. And that's our final piece of the Remilia picture - ultimately, she doesn't care how she is seen, as long as she is able to operate free and uninhibited. She probably won't be actively malevolent, unless this improvisation takes her in that direction, but is just as likely to spin off somewhere else. However, that aristocratic tone will always be present in the background, whether by choice, force of habit, or something else.

Next installment (because it's somewhat difficult): U.N. Owen was her
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tengukami on September 04, 2009, 12:46:55 PM
Not sure I agree that BTD doesn't fit Cirno. It's light, airy, and playful, with a kind of scatterbrained background flurry of notes. At the main happy piano part, those strings in the background are a little sad; highlighting how she gets teased maybe. But overall it's a featherweight, icy, merry tune. It's total Cirno.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 04, 2009, 01:02:47 PM
Not sure I agree that BTD doesn't fit Cirno. It's light, playful, with a kind of scatterbrained background flurry of notes. It's total Cirno.

Oh, absolutely, it fits, but I feel that the introduction could use more of the scatterbrained-ness that's more present in the main part. I may have been a bit too harsh judging Beloved Tomboyish Girl (or was it Daughter? I could swear I saw Daughter used instead of Girl somewhere) coming off Rumia's theme.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Iryan on September 04, 2009, 01:14:21 PM
So, you write posts about how the characters are reflected thorugh their themes and you don't think of mentioning that Luna Dial uses the ticking of a clock as percussion? For shaaaaame.  :V
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Helepolis on September 04, 2009, 01:41:16 PM
Also calling Remilia's last part of her song 'not improvised' is also a shame. If you think the piano drowns the music you are not listening correctly :V

Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 04, 2009, 01:55:33 PM
Flandre Scarlet - U.N. Owen was her

This piece actually creeped me out first time I heard it. It spelled gothic doom. Still does, if I'm in the right mindset. Actually thinking about it, it's far easier to work with than Septette, simply because UNO has pretty much one style that it clings to with manic persistence. Instrumentation remains consistent throughout with some sort of organ-thing on the melody supported by a bass that sits in the lower octaves to remind you, in case you forgot, that this ain't no flowers-and-bunnies piece, occasional punctuation by bells, with a thumping, oppressive drum beat in the background. Oh, and a bit of xylophone... I'll get to that one in a bit.
There isn't much point in analysing the piece bit-by-bit - the objective seems to be to unashamedly blast you with diminished chords until your brain collapses, and UNO does exactly that - every section comes back to the same manic obsession on diminished chords and oppressive beat and bass. A part that actually stands out, now that I think about it, is the little xylophone transition part at 0:55. This bit gives us a break from the mania, establishing a somewhat different character, strings us along, pulls us into a cadence... Sound familiar? This bit really reminds me of Septette's transition, if not in melody, then, at least, in style - clearly Flandre is more similar to her sister than her usual behaviour lets on. Then again, the cadence, instead of a satisfying conclusion, breaks the flow and falls back into mindscrew mode.
And here I have a question - Flandre is crazy (in a poorly-defined manner). Where (canonically) is this established? I honestly can't remember, and it'd help if someone could point it out.
Assuming she is, indeed, not sane, then this piece might give a version of the nature of her insanity - I believe it can be described as chronic obsessive-compulsive sadism. She shows a manic fixation on hurting things, doing so with no degree of shame. Occasionally she'll give sign of snapping out of it...but it's too hard to tell if it's genuine, as she could just be doing so to mess with you some more. And she will most certainly continue messing with you in an equally nasty manner. In fact, considering the vast majority of the piece is the nasty bit, I think it's better to describe her mania as chronic lack of obsessive-compulsive sadism.

That finishes EoSD! I don't really have many remixes of the pieces here, although I'll trawl through IaMP and SWR, they have some nice ones, and McRoll seems inevitable, also I welcome people to post a link or two to a remix that they feel really captures a character (don't link remixes just 'cause they're awesome - I'm sure they are, but that's not why we're here). Unfortunately, I'm going to be away from the internets for the weekend, but I hope to have a full review of PCB themes at the end. That said, next up: Perfect Cherry Blossom!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Letty Whiterock on September 04, 2009, 02:05:05 PM
Heh. Far, far too elegant and melodic for the Cirno we know and love.
Back when her theme was composed, she was not "the Cirno we know and love," she was "the ice fairy boss from Stage 2." There was no ⑨ meme, and the only hint at her apparent lack of intelligence were assumptions from her dialogue and Icicle Fall -Easy-. (In fact, Hong's statements about her last stand (and the fact that she lead Reimu/Marisa to the entrance of SDM) should've put her leaps ahead on the "baka" meme, but whatever.) Cirno was just some girl who shot icicles.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 04, 2009, 02:10:06 PM
So, you write posts about how the characters are reflected thorugh their themes and you don't think of mentioning that Luna Dial uses the ticking of a clock as percussion? For shaaaaame.  :V

Does it? *listens* I don't hear it. One might interpret that particular beating I think you're talking about as sounding ticking-like, but it sounds like a regular bass drum with some sort of dampener to me. Now, of course the intention could well be to make it sound like a clock ticking... but clock ticking is regular. This sure ain't, so I didn't get the association. You could be talking about something else though, so you might need to clarify.

Quote from: Helepolis
Also calling Remilia's last part of her song 'not improvised' is also a shame. If you think the piano drowns the music you are not listening correctly.

Are these two different points? The piano part clearly sounds like it has been improvised. I would think that ZUN wrote it down before playing it though, hence making it actually not improvised, but intended to sound so. Of course he could have actually been improvising during the recording. Regardless, the point is that it sounds thus. As for the second part - eeeh... I might not have been clear about that - the melody is firmly put into the background to let the piano do its thing. It's still audible, but the piano riff is by far the most important. Unless you're specifically listening for the melody and ignoring the piano, this is what you should hear.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 04, 2009, 02:20:02 PM
Heh. Far, far too elegant and melodic for the Cirno we know and love.
Back when her theme was composed, she was not "the Cirno we know and love," she was "the ice fairy boss from Stage 2." There was no ⑨ meme, and the only hint at her apparent lack of intelligence were assumptions from her dialogue and Icicle Fall -Easy-. (In fact, Hong's statements about her last stand (and the fact that she lead Reimu/Marisa to the entrance of SDM) should've put her leaps ahead on the "baka" meme, but whatever.) Cirno was just some girl who shot icicles.

Sure, my commentary has been biased by my current perception of Cirno's character. On the other hand, as you say, she didn't really have much character back then at all, forcing me to fill in some gaps. But it's true, the Cirno-as-then does not give much evidence for lack of elegance. I believe my other points still stand, however.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Helepolis on September 04, 2009, 03:46:52 PM
Are these two different points? The piano part clearly sounds like it has been improvised. I would think that ZUN wrote it down before playing it though, hence making it actually not improvised, but intended to sound so. Of course he could have actually been improvising during the recording. Regardless, the point is that it sounds thus.
So you are like the type of person who doesn't notes down the part which you just improvised and it sounded pretty cool. Nice going there. Next time you won't be able to "show" that improvised part.

I guess everyone has their definition of improvising but for me, in this case music, is fitting in a part which is in total harmony of the actual fixed melody or rythm but making it yet somehow special and "seperate".

If I currently would replay Sanae's theme and add my improvised part after her chorus + write it down, before the 2nd intro starts: It would still be improvised as I made it up. I just happen to note it down to replay it the next time similar. It still stays improvised.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tengukami on September 04, 2009, 05:00:04 PM
"Improvised" just means "made up on the spot". To say something "sounds" improvised means it sounds messy and poorly prepared.

Not saying I agree with either of you when it comes to whether or not that passage sounds improvised; I just think it's important we have our definitions clear.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Helepolis on September 04, 2009, 05:09:59 PM
"Improvised" just means "made up on the spot". To say something "sounds" improvised means it sounds messy and poorly prepared.

Not saying I agree with either of you when it comes to whether or not that passage sounds improvised; I just think it's important we have our definitions clear.
Ay, you elobrated the point more clear. That is what I am aiming at.

I also want to add to my definition: It is hard to improvise music on the spot. Maybe in a speech or an acting/play or something else it would be easier. But with music, improvising is simply playing something in the league of the music and then thinking: "oh, this sounded pretty nice, let me try that again."

At the end it still remains on spot. Now we don't know exactly if ZUN improvised it or not (was this ever asked to him in fanmail or something?) I still see it as improvised part. But yea, that is my opinion with music.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 07, 2009, 07:13:50 AM
I'm back, and I'll answer the few points posted above before wading into PCB.

First off, ack, I can see where the confusion came from regarding the 'improvised' malarkey. I certainly don't mean messy or poorly-prepared. I mean much what Helepolis said earlier - fitting a melody to the ongoing harmony, but with a lot of emphasis on free-form, to really show off a stream-of-consciousness effect. Consider jazz improvisation - that's the vibe I get.

As for the writing-it-down versus not doing so...eh, to me, improvisation is for its own sake - writing it down to perform later takes away from the general experience, but this is certainly a mileage-may-vary thing, if you think different, that's perfectly fine.

I hope that's cleared things up, so I'll get going!

Perfect Cherry Blossom

There's some very characteristic instrumentation going on throughout all of PCB - lots of piano, trumpets and a very specific type of electronic sound that, to me, do well to link together many of the themes we hear, reinforcing the (rather meager) overarching narrative. Perfect Cherry Blossom is the first Touhou game I've played, so I tend to subconsciously measure up every other one to it, music-wise also. This leads to issues with some of ZUN's more experimental tracks in UFO, but that's a ways away to talk about now.

Letty Whiterock - Crystallized Silver

What jumps out at me immediately are the sharp drum beats that permeate the entire piece, making the entire thing seem as if the listener is standing on thin ice that's constantly cracking under their feet, chasing them as they brave the oncoming blizzard, portrayed by the dual trumpets. The brass plays the melody here in long, undulating passages to give a feeling of persistence in addition to the clear and obvious power that brass generally adds to the feel of a piece.
Listening to the introduction and its transition into the melody, there's some very clear imagery here, which I'll tie into Letty's canon characterisation as a winter spirit of sorts. A few bursts of plucked strings suggest a few snowflakes falling here and there, biting in their cold, interspersed by somewhat whiny electronic chords (really obvious, can't miss 'em) to show chill wind picking up, then exploding with the trumpets as the blizzard finally catches up and envelops the listener.
The melody, to me, really catches the feel of a sudden winter blizzard, which suggests just how strongly Letty's character is tied to that - her very nature is to be chilling wind and biting cold. She doesn't dawdle around, she does not hide what she is and she takes herself very seriously - she shows up and gets to business.

Chen - Diao ye zong (Withered Leaf)

Okay, this one's a bit hard. It's characteristic instrumentation - that biting drum, the glassy undulating synthesiser sound with a bit of piano in the high octaves thrown in for good measure - are still very good for capturing winter-related imagery. Considering Perfect Cherry Blossom is all about the unending winter and hawt ghosts I feel this piece is less about Chen, but more there to reinforce this unending winter vibe. Honestly, I feel this even pervades to the next stage's theme (The Doll Maker of Bucuresti).
Listening to the piece again, I think there's something to get by focusing on the piano part, as that gives us something new over the glassy synthesiser and the biting drum. The piano gives us a simple repeating motif made up of clear, non-legato chords occasionally interspersed by a little bit of that wintrey glassy staccato. The listener would expect the piano to develop into something with more substance, however, it's quickly caught up in the undulating glass, which takes over and has the piano follow it in its wake. Or perhaps the piano is content to follow it and occasionally poke out to remind us that it's there. Maybe that gives us something about Chen - uncomplicated, playful in the snow, content with letting the winter roll over, confident that at some point, it'll go away and Chen will still be there, completely unperturbed.

Alice Margatroid - Doll Judgment ~ The girl who played with people's shapes.

I was going to add Doll Maker of Bucuresti to this as well, as I feel the stage as as much about Alice as the actual boss battle is, but for the sake of brevity I'll leave it out until later, if at all.
IOSYS may have been on to something - Doll Judgment is structured like a song. An oddly conflicted song, but a song nonetheless. Go on, listen to Marisa Stole the Precious Thing. IOSYS mess around a bit by mixing in bits of Doll Maker into Doll Judgment, and their verse versus chorus structure is a bit odd, nevertheless, I maintain it's a song, and that shows something about Alice - singers are typically portrayed as creative souls. They usually have a lot of love for their work, and I'd say they come in two flavours - those that sing for others, and those that sing for themselves. Hell, they can do both, depending on mood or situation.
The verse is nice and macabre with a single motif of broken chords repeating, but changing to a different key every time. Every key change is strongly non-standard (no tonic to dominant for us) and the motif repeats note-for-note, leading to parallel fourths (I think) in the resulting harmonic line. Parallel notes in a harmony is distinctly un-classical, which leads to this entire set of passages to sound just off. Better yet, there are two melodies that do this, exacerbating the effect. The verse shows us that Alice is unlike others, unusual, possibly a loner due to this - there are no secondary, classic motifs to offset the primary one.
The chorus breaks away from the strageness to offer us something more familiar, more comforting, strong and surprisingly melodic, with gentle melancholy hinted at by a few flute passages.
The verse comes back in, unchanged, perhaps to push us away, or, on the contrary, to keep us fixed, to hear that chorus again. And indeed the chorus comes back, twice, to make sure the listener does not forget that that part is as strong, or maybe stronger, than the strangeness that you heard at first.
Alice might be one of the more popular characters in the Touhou fandom, so my perceptions are rather coloured by the way she's portrayed by fans. This in mind, I'll hope to do her character justice without falling back on the usual standbys.
Alice is creative, and enjoys her creations. It's not immediately obvious why she keeps making her dolls - whether for herself or for others, but the fact that she's lives a solitary lifestyle suggests the former - thus meaning that she is introspective, perhaps looking for a greater meaning that would be revealed in her creations.
She might confuse and bewilder on first impressions, and even when one is familiar with her, and that's an ever-present part of her character, something that is hard not to notice when she's around. Perhaps she is aware of this, and would go to rather great lengths to establish that no, she isn't all that weird, she has normal sensibilities as well, she has all the same troubles that everyone else has.

Prismriver sisters - Phantom Ensemble.

Hmm...not entirely sure what to do here. There are three characters, and one theme. Hell, the theme doesn't even really use the instruments of the Prismrivers, so it's not possible to evaluate their characters by contribution to the piece (to naysayers - there's an accordion and a guitar in there, not to mention drums, in addition to the distinct lack of violin). So what I'll do is judge them as one character.
The Prismrivers are a laugh a minute. The piece keeps blatantly changing instruments, tempo and texture. On the other hand, the melody has two very basic patterns, which are repeated by a constantly-shifting jumble of instruments to provide the feeling of variety. And that's basically it for the Prismrivers - they're a colourful lot, each one with as much personality as the other, each contributing her distinct share to the general din that we get from them. Individually they're not much to look at, but put together their presence can easily overwhelm that of other characters' - there's certainly more volume to them than to Letty, Chen or Alice.
I don't really feel I've done the Prismrivers justice, so if anyone has anything to say, please do.

Youmu Konpaku - Hiroari Shoots a Strange Bird ~ Till When.

Every time I hear this I get the feeling of inevitable, colourful and prettily arranged death. This isn't irrelevant - Hiroari Shoots a Strange Bird explodes into fast-paced pipe organ and piano and doesn't let go even when changing gears into its melody. This is Youmu through and through - poweful, explosive and unrelenting.
However, Youmu is also surprisingly simple. Her melody is no more than 8 bars long, repeated in one different key, then back to the original key. Of those 8 bars, it's basically 4 bars repeated twice. But goshdarnit, those few bars will be repeated with the force of a thousand suns (or one overdrive guitar, in this case), as Youmu doesn't appear to be able to do much else. Now, consider that melody played on something far more mellow - flute, cello, something like that, and a smidge slower. It's a very pleasant melody, actually, quite lyrical, with a bit of longing, maybe. Youmu is actually quite emotional, just those emotions are expressed through the filter of the "shoot first, ask questions later" approach that is established in the introduction.
It's unfair to say that this is how she would always behave, however - imagine, in, say, a movie, where you might have a character with a central theme, which might have variations based on situation - a high-octane rock variation for fighting, a mellow flute-and-violins variation for introspection, a majestic horn variation for those walking-slowly-down-a-corridor moments... I feel that this particular rendition of Hiroari is simply Youmu's "fighting" theme, showing a unilateral, unwavering Youmu when she's repelling intruders - powerful, ruthless, fast. She will still remain refreshingly simple, however, with her 2x4-bar melody.

Up next - Bloom Nobly, Cherry Blossom of Sumizome ~ Border of Life and A Maiden's Illusionary Funeral ~ Necro-fantasy. I'm not sure if I should do Border of Life and Necrofantasia as they're both remixes, but they're both there for very good reasons.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on September 07, 2009, 07:50:45 AM
I'm gonna have to play devils advocate on Phantom Ensemble here. I'm definitely picking up each sister in the arrangement.

Lyrica (Keyboard) - The youngest sister. Starts the entire piece with some beautiful keyboard. When her other sisters are in the foreground, she plays some rhytmic support beats percussion style. She's described as the keyboardist and percussionist of the group, so it fits that she would be some rather rhythmic support beats on that keyboard. She's described as the sly one that likes to make her sisters do the work, the fact that she slips down into the supporting rhythmic section a lot of the time reflects it.

Lunasa (Violin) - The eldest sister. She's very quiet and calculating in personality. According to her official profile, she prefers solo performances. After Lyrica's intro, she's brings in the main melody with precision. She gives up her spot rather quickly to Merlin though. She's described as someone who hates cheating and believes in fairness in her official profile, so the fact that she steps down for Merlin may be that she's letting everyone have their turn in the spotlight.

Merlin (Trumpet) - The middle sister. She's the happy-go-lucky one of the group and is always rather excited. Her trumpet sections are usually very loud, fast, and sporadic. This reflects her vibrant attitude and her desire for the spotlight. Even when all three sisters are jamming out, Merlin is usually the one most prominently heard.

Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 07, 2009, 08:35:56 AM
I'm gonna have to play devils advocate on Phantom Ensemble here. I'm definitely picking up each sister in the arrangement.

Lyrica (Keyboard) - The youngest sister. Starts the entire piece with some beautiful keyboard. When her other sisters are in the foreground, she plays some rhytmic support beats percussion style. She's described as the keyboardist and percussionist of the group, so it fits that she would be some rather rhythmic support beats on that keyboard. She's described as the sly one that likes to make her sisters do the work, the fact that she slips down into the supporting rhythmic section a lot of the time reflects it.

Lunasa (Violin) - The eldest sister. She's very quiet and calculating in personality. According to her official profile, she prefers solo performances. After Lyrica's intro, she's brings in the main melody with precision. She gives up her spot rather quickly to Merlin though. She's described as someone who hates cheating and believes in fairness in her official profile, so the fact that she steps down for Merlin may be that she's letting everyone have their turn in the spotlight.

Merlin (Trumpet) - The middle sister. She's the happy-go-lucky one of the group and is always rather excited. Her trumpet sections are usually very loud, fast, and sporadic. This reflects her vibrant attitude and her desire for the spotlight. Even when all three sisters are jamming out, Merlin is usually the one most prominently heard.

Awesome! I agree with your points, and they certainly do the sisters more justice than my lumping of them together.  :)

It would have been cooler, I think, if ZUN used exclusively piano, trumpet and violin for this track, but he might not have been as confident back then to break away from his usual stuff. That said, Phantom Ensemble is quite radically different already, what with it being so all over the place, so...
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Nine West on September 07, 2009, 09:49:54 AM
It would have been cooler, I think, if ZUN used exclusively piano, trumpet and violin for this track, but he might not have been as confident back then to break away from his usual stuff. That said, Phantom Ensemble is quite radically different already, what with it being so all over the place, so...

Yes. I was quite disappointed when ZUN did not remix Ghostly Band ~ Phantom Ensemble into three different versions for the release of PoFV. That was such a good chance, considering how the Prismrivers were separated as 3 different characters. That said, the song itself is incredibly melodic, despite the fact that Merlin occasionally blasted her trumpet. :D

This is an interesting read so far, keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Kuma on September 07, 2009, 10:09:03 AM
this is enertaining.
keep going!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 07, 2009, 11:47:40 AM
Yuyuko Saigyouji - Bloom Nobly, Cherry Blossom of Sumizome ~ Border of Life

As is befitting a final boss, and much like Septette, Bloom Nobly is chock-full of character. Obviously, it's very different from Septette in the character that it presents. I'll split by section as appropriate.
We start with a guitar-and-piano motif that will stay with us for large sections of the piece, comfortable and quietly establishing a main theme. It is a melodic motif, with warm harmonies, albeit played somewhat harshly on the piano. But Cosmic Mind this ain't, and Yuyuko's patience can run dry - the warm harmony is replaced by menacing chords that only seem to grow in power every iteration, towering over the listener and strongly suggesting that he take matters seriously. Once the listener is properly humbled, the piece explodes into the main melody again, at full power, melodic as before but with far more volume and density to it. Yuyuko is herself through and through, and her nature remains whether she is calm or wrathful. Yuyuko will establish her dominance, but not through manipulation, like Septette's Remilia, or brutality, like U.N. Owen's Flandre, but through sheer force of will.
Yuyuko is merciful, however. She will not impose more than she has to - she will let the listener rest, as her theme winds down into a gentle set of piano arpeggios, going nowhere really, not suggesting any developments, just carrying the piece along like some meaningless small talk.
But Yuyuko is Yuyuko, and her very presence imposes an overwhelming will if she does not intentionally suppress it. Once again the powerful trumpet theme takes over in a different melody. Yuyuko has more to her than just seen at first impression, certainly - imagine the melody that takes over played alone, without any accompaniment, and in, say, flute or clarinet. The melodic line is fanciful, whimsical, self-indulgent, perhaps a bit playful. The characteristics, perhaps, of a slightly spoiled, somewhat selfish child or teenager. Yuyuko does not mind showing this side of her, and might be even willing to do so once the formalities of "who's boss here" are settled. She, however, probably does not realise the filter through which this side of her passes - her overwhelming, mind-numbing power - so effortlessly does the melody merge with the instrumental power reserved for gods and demons. The listener is absolutely blasted by playful whimsy, and has no choice but to submit. Every once in a while she'll realise that she's crowding the listener and hangs back - during these moments the listener gets a chance to collect themselves, before Yuyuko continues in her usual vein, and once more the listener just has to brace and hope for dear life.
One final consideration - those moments of rest are extremely precise, very carefully dividing her outbursts of will. Perhaps Yuyuko is more aware of her charisma than one might think, and knows exactly how to use her power to greatest effect without burning out the listener. That in mind, the image of Yuyuko as manipulative chessmaster that we sometimes get in canon and fanon is rather appropriate.
So that's the Yuyuko we get - 50% spoiled princess, 50% charismatic chessmaster, 100% willpower.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 07, 2009, 01:45:38 PM
I'll skip Border of Life and Necrofantasia for the moment.

Ran Yakumo - A Maiden's Illusionary Funeral ~ Necro-fantasy.

Oof. Far more complicated than U.N. Owen, with a far more complicated character to show for it. Despite how often she comes up in fanon (and in canon, every once in a while), I'm still not able to really come up with a key phrase that really captures the essence of Ran, so maybe this piece will help.

First off, there is one melody in the entire thing, approximately 16 bars long - a set of 8 bars that repeats with a fun key change at the end of the second set. What adds the complication is how the melody keeps varying.
First of all, however, we get a long, tense introduction, with a bell-like piano drone in the background to add a solemn feeling. Ran is a serious entity, and serious is how the listener would see her at first glance, and well afterwards - this introduction comes back every once in a while to remind us who we're dealing with.
The melody comes in as a slight surprise - it's very open and emotional for such a sober introduction, and the listener might think that Ran is quite open-hearted, just occasionally hiding under a veneer of seriousness. That feeling quickly falters once the listener realises that the open-heartedness is just a well-rehearsed act. Ran keeps her true self cunningly hidden just behind the act - the melody keeps varying its texture and instrumentation, occasionally letting the background to the front, hiding itself before coming back, to the point where it's somewhat hard to tell that it's still there at all (xylophone bit - can't miss it), but when you hear that characteristic key-change, the listener realises that no, it's still there, she's still completely in control. She uses that characteristic 'tell' of hers - that brief one-chord key-change - to reinforce her self-control, almost taunting the listener. It's hard to tell what drives these constant alterations in attitude, but it's probably not simple fun and games, as her 'serious' theme keeps reminding us.
I would think that gives a satisfactory view of Ran - grimly focused, able and willing to use trickery and manipulation to fulfill her objectives, whatever those may be - she is most certainly not letting anyone know with that poker-face of hers that shows only what she wants it to show.

[edit] And that brings us to the end of PCB, having blatantly missed Yukari. It's a toss-up if I skip her or not before continuing to Imperishable Night - if anyone really cares about Necrofantasia, speak up.

[edit some more] Ah. Immaterial and Missing Power. Completely forgot. And I do so like Onigashima in the Fairyland. I'll be omitting the remixes in IaMP, but I'll move on to that before IN.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on September 07, 2009, 01:59:04 PM
I seriously love this thread, can't wait for the more.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 07, 2009, 03:19:57 PM
Aw man, thanks for all the great feedback, guys! Here goes then, final update for the day:

Yukari Yakumo - Necrofantasia.

No matter what she thinks, Yukari is startlingly similar to Yuyuko. The introduction overflows with effortless power, the melody keeps flowing forth, fast and furious, as if someone turned on the tap just a smidge and the water pressure blew off the sink, along with a good chunk of the wall. Attempting to stem the flow only leads to a gradual and unstoppable buildup of pressure that only doesn't level the rest of your house because it's cut off at the source, by the source.
And then we actually get to the melody - Yukari actually shows up.
Now, this is a remix of Maiden's Illusionary Funeral, so the piece has to follow some sensibilities in being similar to its source in some way. Here the similarity is in the melody - perhaps Yukari has an act of her own that she puts on to get what she wants, but it really doesn't matter. The overwhelming intensity and power that were established in the introduction blaze through her facade, subduing the listener before Yukari even has to put on airs.
Let's make a comparison to Superman, or, specifically, how Booster Gold (or was that Blue Beetle?) sees him in that one Crisis story. If you're not familiar with Superman, consider Bleach's Zaraki Kenpachi, more specifically how he is perceived by Ichigo just before Kenpachi actually turns up. If you're not familiar with Kenpachi or Superman...what the heck are you doing on this forum? In all seriousness - the listener is well-aware of the power that simply washes off Yukari. He is awed by her might. She's probably well-aware of it as well, and thinks she's pretty awesome too, but doesn't use it as a shortcut to achieve her goals. Unfortunately, she rarely gets to use her mind or wits or charm, since that power is plenty - it is as if God wished for you to go out and do something highly unfavourable to yourself and decided to convince you to do so by presenting a well-thought-out and convincing argument - sure, he might have convinced you with the argument, but you'd likely be out of the door before he said, "Now listen here..."
That's enough for me to show Yukari - blindingly powerful, so much that she subdues others with her mere presence. She, herself, has trouble suppressing it, only reigning it in every once in a while when she might realise those around her are huddled in fetal positions. She might have schemes and plans, but rarely has to really work for them, even if she might wish to. It's possible that she's a loner (she, in fact, is, canonically, but hey, got to have something), as she has trouble expressing anything beyond that power, and others characterise her by that, instead of whatever nature she possesses. It might be that she doesn't even care about revealing her true nature any more, as there are no hints to her beyond the Ran-like facade, if you can see it without blinding yourself.

[edit] Hoo boy, that's embarassing. My comic book references seem to be way off.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on September 07, 2009, 04:45:45 PM
The premise of this thread is highly intriguing. I can't wait for you to reach Fate of Sixty Years. Keep it up.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Pako on September 07, 2009, 07:21:00 PM
This thread is beautifull, your analyzing skills are pretty good.

I personally can't wait till you get to "Faith is for the transient people."
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 08, 2009, 06:56:21 AM
I can't wait for you to reach Fate of Sixty Years.

Oh dear. I'm quite unfamiliar with PoFV - I've never even finished it once, although I'm quite familiar with Komachi and Shikieki. No matter! I'll do my best.

Quote
I personally can't wait till you get to "Faith is for the transient people."

I can't wait to get to it either, it's one of my favourite tracks in Mountain of Faith. MoF has a lot of really flavourful tracks in general.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Nine West on September 08, 2009, 07:34:11 AM
I'm no musical expert or anything, so this thread greatly interests me. Your analyzations are quite detailed, examining every components of each track. ZUN is really great at making atmosphere in each and every stages (the heartbeats in Fires of Hokkai, anyone?), since apparently, he composes his music first before designing the stage. If this shows anything, ZUN considers his music as important as the games themselves.

TEoSD - 100% agree on the whole 'ZUN trying out his synthesizer here and there.'
PCB - As you said, a lot of instrumentation on this one.

Also, you probably won't do this but, I'm quite interested in the examination of PC-98 music. :)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 08, 2009, 09:14:13 AM
Also, you probably won't do this but, I'm quite interested in the examination of PC-98 music. :)

Hm, that might be hard to get. But hey, worth a try when I get done with the windows ones.

As for Immaterial and Missing Power - unless I'm sorely mistaken, we have only one new character introduced across the entire game. That said, Reimu and Marisa get some tunes as well, but I'll leave off those two until Imperishable Night.

Suika Ibuki - Onigashima in the Fairyland.

Somewhat similar to Necrofantasia, but both more suppressed and more uninhibited - we have the buildup of power, but without the initial blast. We have this buildup relaxing, but not because it was forcefully cut off, but because there's suddenly nothing more on the other end and everything is sucked back, as it were.

The melody comes in as if nothing had happened, a whimsical, self-contained tune no longer than 8 bars. This is Suika at her core. Perfectly happy with herself as she is - no far-reaching consequences, only a bit of self-indulgent fun. The only thing reminding the listener of that pressure they felt earlier are the deep, almost inaudible broken chords in the accompaniment.

It is entirely likely that the whimsical fun that Suika indulges in might go somewhat out of control. The tune quickly becomes more forceful with the addition of trumpet on top of the piano. A first thought is that this is uncontrolled, subconscious, if it weren't for that part that follows immediately after - once again the focus is on the buildup of pressure exclusively, abandoning the melody, as if Suika is unsatisfied with the power she's been putting out, and stops whatever she's doing and starts gathering herself. Not for anything malevolent or ominous, mind you - the whimsy is still there, so she just...wants to have fun, harder.

Fortunately, Suika is, well, forgetful. All that power just goes to waste and dissipates, possibly tripping up the listener, who was bracing for a major outburst and instead got a few bars of extremely simple broken chords with practically no accompaniment. As if Suika forgot what she was doing at the peak of her 'charge' and just sort of stood there, a silly expression on her face, wondering what the heck she was just doing.
Deciding it probably wasn't that important, anyway, the melody goes off in a different direction - a somewhat sober direction, with a melancholy feel to it - the melodic notes are long, legato with accompaniment in minor. The listener might wonder at this character change, only to have the melody wink at him with the inclusion of some scattered notes in the upper octaves, reminding us of the light-hearted whimsy present all the way at the beginning - this is a private joke between Suika and the listener, she's having fun by putting on some sort of drunken melancholy act. And drunken it is, as Suika suddenly hams it up with the melody exploding in trumpets, that 'wink' still there if you listen to it. Towards the end the melody loses some of its drive, the drums suddenly disappearing then reappearing again, the high-pitched trumpets moving into a lower key - Suika tires of this particular game, and the melody moves on, sitting on the spot for a while, wondering what to do next, growing more and more restless, before remembering what it was doing in the first place and returning to the original melody from the beginning.

So that's Suika - plenty of power there, and she knows how to use it. Unlike Yukari, she's more able to channel that power into the shenanigans that form her daily life. It also helps that she occasionally can't remember what she was up to a few moments previously, so her power is never focused in one place or direction. She does like her shenanigans, however - most of her time is spent having self-indulgent fun in a way that only she really understands, occasionally at the expense of others, someone possibly being in on the joke every once in a while, but only if Suika lets them.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: G_gglypuff on September 08, 2009, 03:44:08 PM
To the TC: I didn't have the time to read through the whole thing yet, but why don't you post a view of the stage music too? Games like Story of Eastern Wonderland, Lotus Land Story and Perfect Cherry Blossom contain stage music that are better than boss music.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 09, 2009, 11:12:53 AM
To the TC: I didn't have the time to read through the whole thing yet, but why don't you post a view of the stage music too? Games like Story of Eastern Wonderland, Lotus Land Story and Perfect Cherry Blossom contain stage music that are better than boss music.

We-e-ll... First of all, the first two are non-windows games, and are thus outside my purview at the moment, but I'd be totally happy to do stage music as well, once I'm done with boss themes - my objective now is to get some more characterisation for the characters. Their environs will come later.

[edit] Oh, and happy Beloved Tomboyish Girl day, everyone!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Prody on September 09, 2009, 11:42:26 AM
Whoaa superb work there!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 09, 2009, 11:46:16 AM
So then, Imperishable Night.

I feel sometimes that ZUN doesn't really realise the incredible dickishness of some of the characters he creates. Cases in point - Maiden's Capriccio and Reach for the Moon, Immortal Smoke.
The former is elegant, mysterious, unpredictable. Reimu is none of these (canonically). She's lazy and violent, well-grounded in the "might makes right" attitude. UFO adds bigoted and intolerant to that. Give her a theme to match Sakuya's - brutal and obvious. She doesn't deserve Maiden's Capriccio. Don't get me wrong, I really like Reimu as a character, who's a curious deconstructionist (possibly unintentionally) take on the typical "hero" type one might get in action games. But ZUN shouldn't forget that Reimu is a jerkass, and that's why I love her, so he shouldn't hide it.
The latter is melancholic with a bitter smile on it. "But Fightest," you might say, "Mokou totally is that, 'cause she's the canonical Touhou loner, with a tragic backstory and conflicted emotions." No she's not. She's a psychopath to rival Flandre. Her single pastime in life that gets her any feeling of satisfaction is murder. Gensokyo is lucky that Kaguya is immortal, otherwise Mokou's flamboyant attitude towards killing might spread beyond the Bamboo Forest of the Lost. Much like Reimu, Mokou is one of my most favourite characters, just because I hate her so much as a person - she's the villain one loves to hate, as it were, to me. Unfortunately, Immortal Smoke does not really show what I see in her.

End rant. I'll try to be objective in the actual analysis. Which will come later, as RL troubles are being a bit too frustrating for me to keep a clear head at the moment.

[edit] Oh and Mokou's trousers. I love those trousers.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Polaris on September 10, 2009, 12:28:52 AM
She's a psychopath to rival Flandre. Her single pastime in life that gets her any feeling of satisfaction is murder. Gensokyo is lucky that Kaguya is immortal, otherwise Mokou's flamboyant attitude towards killing might spread beyond the Bamboo Forest of the Lost.

This description is way too far off from the Mokou I've seen in canon.

For one, she hardly seems psychopathic in the Imperishable Night Extra Stage translations I've been reading, and she didn't even seem like she was going to fight at all until the heroines mention Kaguya (except for Youmu & Yuyuko, who didn't mention Kaguya until after Mokou was defeated). Furthermore, she escorts villagers through the Bamboo Forest, and even (apparently) runs a yakitori stand.

Of course, she's shown to be threatening Aya during her interview in Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red, but Aya was probably irritating her (or that's how I came to understand it).

But still, I don't think Mokou is any of the things you described, and instead she's "the canonical Touhou loner, with a tragic backstory and conflicted emotions," in a way.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Hieda no Aya on September 10, 2009, 06:17:27 AM
Yeah, outside of her bizarre messed-up thing with Kaguya, Mokou seems to be a pretty decent person. I always took the yakitori stand thing as a lie, but she does love rescuing people; she says in CiLR that their thanks are something she lives for now. She seems regretful over killing Iwakasa all those years ago, and she thinks Kaguya would be lonely without her... She's strange, hard and jaded and worn down from a thousand years of miserable life that she stayed sane through by focusing on hatred, but doing much better now than she was. She's complex.

Likewise, I've always disliked that idea of Reimu as some awful uptight jerkass bitch. She's not Jesus, and I'm not sure "elegant, mysterious and unpredictable" are the words I'd use for her either, but resolving incidents and hunting youkai are her job, the job she was born to. And a job which she gets annoyed by, and which she approaches in an extremely simple way. Still, she's always been very laid-back and mellow when duty isn't riding her. Still lazy, though.

...Anyway, I feel bad that my first post in this thread is quibbling -- sorry about that -- because I've been reading it for a while and it's super interesting. I've honestly just been reluctant to comment because of the way any and all music terminology sails right over my head, sadly; I've never been good for much beyond "it sounds good" and "it sounds happy." (Well, and weirder versions of that. I always thought Necrofantasia sounds like if you stumbled into a big festival of youkai, cheerful but also unmistakably dangerous, and ended up being bewitched and forced to party and dance with them to your exhaustion. Which is a very strange and overly specific response to a song. Then again, I always have trouble thinking of Necrofantasia as a remix of Necro-Fantasy and not the other way around, since Ran's the servant after all. And Necro-Fantasy always felt like it was holding back. And I don't even know what I'm blathering about now.) Er, but your analyses are really neat, and do keep going.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 10, 2009, 07:57:38 AM
Yeah, outside of her bizarre messed-up thing with Kaguya, Mokou seems to be a pretty decent person. I always took the yakitori stand thing as a lie, but she does love rescuing people; she says in CiLR that their thanks are something she lives for now. She seems regretful over killing Iwakasa all those years ago, and she thinks Kaguya would be lonely without her... She's strange, hard and jaded and worn down from a thousand years of miserable life that she stayed sane through by focusing on hatred, but doing much better now than she was. She's complex.

Okay, but the things about her in Lunatic Renegade can be taken in a far more unpleasant light. Admittedly, it's just my interpretation, which means it can be off-target, but bear with me for a second. The only source, canonically, that says Mokou is sane is Mokou herself. We have none of Keine's comments on Mokou (at least, I don't remember any - I'd love to read Keine's comments on Mokou). The bit about her living for the thanks of people she guides out of the Bamboo Forest can be taken as that she has nothing else to live for. That and murder - her thinking that Kaguya would be lonely without her could be either a subconscious justification of Mokou's harassment of Kaguya, or otherwise the fact that Mokou would be lonely without Kaguya (to murder) filtered through Mokou's twisted perception of life.

How's that for grimdark? Fortunately there are two final counterarguments on this view that I'll accept: firstly, Gensokyo and Touhou in general is a positive setting - there is no permadeath, Defeat Means Friendship runs rampant and nobody is so much of a dick as to actually not play by the rules (h4x Sign excluded  :V Gensokyo's a bunch of cheating jerks after all). The second counterargument is the just-as-canonical Inaba of the Moon and Inaba of the Earth which has a Mokou that's entirely sane, stable and actually able to be around Kaguya without exploding into murder. So sane and stable as to actually be able to participate in wacky hijinks.

Quote
Likewise, I've always disliked that idea of Reimu as some awful uptight jerkass bitch. She's not Jesus, and I'm not sure "elegant, mysterious and unpredictable" are the words I'd use for her either, but resolving incidents and hunting youkai are her job, the job she was born to. And a job which she gets annoyed by, and which she approaches in an extremely simple way. Still, she's always been very laid-back and mellow when duty isn't riding her. Still lazy, though.

I'll go with that... except for the youkai-hunting job - from what I understand, her job is to maintain the Shrine so as the border doesn't wear down, and she youkai-hunts for the hell of it. Regardless, I'd completely agree with you... just her dialogue with Byakuren in UFO portrays her as a horrible person. To be fair, there're as many arguments for Reimu's side as there are for Byakuren's - I've made some satisfying cases for both sides to myself, and the ending does, as I had seriously hoped, resolve both her attitude and perception of Byakuren so I'll back down and hope she learns her lesson.

Quote
...Anyway, I feel bad that my first post in this thread is quibbling -- sorry about that -- because I've been reading it for a while and it's super interesting. I've honestly just been reluctant to comment because of the way any and all music terminology sails right over my head, sadly; I've never been good for much beyond "it sounds good" and "it sounds happy." (Well, and weirder versions of that. I always thought Necrofantasia sounds like if you stumbled into a big festival of youkai, cheerful but also unmistakably dangerous, and ended up being bewitched and forced to party and dance with them to your exhaustion. Which is a very strange and overly specific response to a song. Then again, I always have trouble thinking of Necrofantasia as a remix of Necro-Fantasy and not the other way around, since Ran's the servant after all. And Necro-Fantasy always felt like it was holding back. And I don't even know what I'm blathering about now.) Er, but your analyses are really neat, and do keep going.

Hey, don't worry about it - I'm honestly interested in other people's opinions, both about the characters and their themes, and your comment on Necrofantasia is entirely appropriate - it's completely uninhibited, has plenty of variation to suggest the whirling colours one might see in a song-and-dance festival, and it just doesn't stop going. I also, actually, had a lot of trouble accepting Necrofantasia as the remix - I listened to it before Illusionary Funeral, so it was the original, as it were, to me for a long time.

That said: Imperishable Night.

Nothing much to say in the preamble, there's plenty of thematic variation in all the boss themes, lots of very characteristic tunes and some interesting things done in the music of the themes towards the end of the game. Oh, please read my meta-commentary on my Mystia analysis before making any judgments.

Wriggle Nightbug - Stirring an Autumn Moon ~ Mooned Insect

Wriggle's not much to look at, really - she's a first boss, after all, and rarely does a first boss carry with her earth-shattering complications. Unfortunately, I'm not really familiar with Wriggle beyond the rather outlandish doujins, so I might not do her character justice.
The introduction keeps stuttering, not sure where, or when, to start. That little motif is plenty to get going, so it's less a lack of preparation, but more of a rookie inexperience, a first-time nervousness kind of thing, where Wriggle has to take a few deep breaths before rushing onto the stage.
There's a reasonable amount of instrumentation in the rather simple melody (8 bars) that doesn't develop into anything else, and it does switch around from piano to trumpet and back to piano - a solid first-time performance with honest attention to detail - as much detail as Wriggle can handle, anyway. A bit forgettable, perhaps, without many quirks - all I can pick up are the little bits of ornamentation in the high-pitched piano melody to give it that bit of a twinkle - Wriggle's a firefly, after all.
That's plenty for me to describe Wriggle - refreshingly quirk-light, someone to give an honest first effort even when inexperienced, mayhap a bit self-conscious, but rarely letting that stop her from performing. Imagine that one beginner in a crowd of experienced performers (of some sort) who goes out on stage and does their thing - it's not as good as that of the pros, but you clap anyway because it's got an honest effort behind it, and you reckon that beginner could well go far with practice.
As I said - if someone has a more thorough view on Wriggle, do speak up.

Mystia Lorelei - Deaf to all but the Song.

Right then. I had a bit of a rant going about Mystia, but realised it was just taking up precious space. To summarise - I disagree with the moe-fication of Mystia. Hopefully my analysis will explain why.

Deaf to all but the Song is cruel. That introduction confuses and scares - the repeating cadences are in minor, but that's no gentle A minor - that's the forceful E minor (I think, I don't have perfect pitch, but I like to think my relative pitch is decent) that means they're there to be inflicted. Moving an octave lower moves the chords into a menacing growl right at the listener's ear before spreading all around to envelop the listener, leaving him no escape.
The melody is fairly innocuous, much like I suppose Mystia is, visually (the usual 8 bars, repeated with a difference at the end). The trumpet comes in soon enough to show the actual unique feature of Mystia - that high-pitched birdsong that slowly, but inevitably, becomes part of the melody, before becoming the melody itself... And the listener suddenly loses sight of Mystia, and all he sees or hears are the encroaching darkness in the repeating cadences from the beginning, with the bird song of the trumpet far above, laughing, taunting, finally exploding in an ecstatic shout of triumph.
Mystia is a cruel hunter who enjoys playing with her prey. She does not play fair, she will use trickery and deceit to hunt and she will revel in the kill. There is no mercy in her, no regret for her actions - she is not crazy, she's just evil.

I wrote the bit about Mystia before I talked about Gensokyo as a positive setting, so I'll be willing to amend the "kill" bit - modern Gensokyo is apparently a place where no youkai eats humans any more, according to Word of God, so I'd recharacterise Mystia not as a sadistic killer, but as a sadistic prankster. Not evil but immoral.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tengukami on September 10, 2009, 08:18:33 AM
I wouldn't say Reimu came across as a "horrible person" in UFO; just a battle-weary, jaded person with little belief in the possibility of human/youkai peace. Sanae, on the other hand, comes across as a racist psycho.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 10, 2009, 08:49:22 AM
I wouldn't say Reimu came across as a "horrible person" in UFO; just a battle-weary, jaded person with little belief in the possibility of human/youkai peace. Sanae, on the other hand, comes across as a racist psycho.

Ooh, gotta play through Sanae's paths then. As for Reimu, I don't know if that take is any better than the "violent jerkass" that I tend to see. Let's not forget that she is the aggressor in the final fight. With the "jaded" interpretation she attacks Byakuren simply because there's nothing else left for her to do, she has to act out her part of "youkai hunter," regardless of the innocence of the opposing party. She's become, for better or worse, Gensokyo's version of Rambo.

Oh, and there I go grimdark-ifying things again. I'm satisfied with Reimu being her usual "a bit of a dick" attitude, and attacking Byakuren because she's faced plenty of trickster youkai before, so best fire some warning headshots, figuring that the truth will come out once either of them is beaten. Let's not forget, Spell Card rules are in effect, so no permadeath - Byakuren's unlikely to know of Spell Card rules (that said, goshdarnit ZUN, give us some more background on the things) so it'd have to be Reimu who initiates them, knowing of their nonlethal-ifying effect.

[edit]Oh, and requesting someone draw Rambo!Reimu. It must be done. Now!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tengukami on September 10, 2009, 09:27:20 AM
I wouldn't say Reimu came across as a "horrible person" in UFO; just a battle-weary, jaded person with little belief in the possibility of human/youkai peace. Sanae, on the other hand, comes across as a racist psycho.

Ooh, gotta play through Sanae's paths then. As for Reimu, I don't know if that take is any better than the "violent jerkass" that I tend to see. Let's not forget that she is the aggressor in the final fight. With the "jaded" interpretation she attacks Byakuren simply because there's nothing else left for her to do, she has to act out her part of "youkai hunter," regardless of the innocence of the opposing party. She's become, for better or worse, Gensokyo's version of Rambo.

What? Rambo? I'm really not seeing it. She's a miko who has had to fight all kinds of youkai in one incident after the other. Every time she reaches the final boss, that final boss has been like "Yes! You have discovered that I am the root cause of [Incident X]! Now we must fight!". So naturally, this veteran reaches the final boss of this incident, and naturally, attacks. And not because "there's simply nothing left for her to do" - she says she intends to seal Byakuren away, to which Byakuren says, "if you're going to seal me away again --  I will resist you with all my strength". This greatly pleases Reimu, because it's a classic final boss trope. Simply because that's how it's always been for Reimu, all her long weary life. It's also why she has little faith in the concept of humans and youkai holding hands and singing as they skip through the forest - she's lived through years and years of dealing with terrible, sometimes potentially catostrophic incidents caused by youkai.

Sanae, by contrast, is on her first "mission" here in UFO, and she's all about EXTERMINATE THE YOUKAI. Who knows what her reasons are. Kanako/Suwako told her so? Maybe.

I think it's important to not just read the dialogue, but also consider the history behind the characters when we make judgements about them like this. Reimu's history explains a lot about her behavior in UFO. Sanae's very short history in the Touhou canon makes her zealous youkaiphobia all the more weird and intense seeming.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 10, 2009, 09:49:46 AM
Yeah, I know. I have this odd tendency to make everything to be far grimdarker than it should be, but only in Touhou - everywhere else I go for the more optimistic path. There's really no good reason for it, and you're absolutely right about Reimu's attitude - jaded, but not broken. More Hannibal from the A-Team, as opposed to...whats-his-face from Apocalypse Now. Not the best of comparisons, but it's the best I can do at short notice.

Gah, I'll get on to Keine and the rest soonish.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 10, 2009, 11:03:05 AM
Keine Kamishirasawa - Plain Asia.

I think the piece title doesn't give Keine justice. The piece is far from plain, there are unfathomable depths to it that it doesn't let you investigate simply because you'd drown before you see them all.
The introduction offers no hints at what is to come. The melody starts off in a careful and calm piano study, made somewhat aloof by the trumpet that tends to turn upwards into higher pitch. The introduction is quite short, made even shorter by being split into two characteristic parts ? the unassuming Keine and the aloof Keine ? suggesting that, despite her calm demeanour, she is somewhat short-tempered and refuses to be seen as inconsequential.
When slighted thus, Keine?s response is to demonstrate just how deep she is. For the first time (possibly ever, I don?t hear it in any game previously) ZUN uses that electronic sound that sounds like unworded vocals ? the closest thing to Ominous Latin Chanting that he can come to reasonably. The melody is gone, there?s only the draw of those long, chanted notes pulling in the listener, who might be surprised at this rather sudden development.
The draw ends, and a fast-paced study takes over, completely different from the introduction. The melody is not forceful, not brimming with power, but it?s certainly confident, practiced, slightly chastising of the listener for his assumptions. But this might not be enough for Keine. Before even finishing with this development, she begins to pull even deeper, all the while demonstrating her point in her collected and practiced manner, before realizing her aggression, and rapidly pulling back to safety, to her usual self. However, by now the listener is well-aware of Keine?s hidden depths, and the inoxerable draw is evident behind her unassuming introductory melody. Perhaps she chastises the listener for a while for spacing out, the trumpet adding a bit of exclamation to the end of the track.
I?m not too confident about this analysis ? the two melodies are straightforward enough, the transition making the piece unique. So I?ll go with Keine being a person with two sides to her, and possibly more that she hides from the listener. Despite this she is not schitzophrenic ? she is perfectly balanced, perfectly in touch with herself, aware that her mannerisms might scare but willing to use the weirder aspects of her to prove a point ? and she will not push any further: she respects others and any limitations they might have.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Hieda no Aya on September 10, 2009, 04:44:33 PM
(stuff about Mokou that's too long to sensibly quote)
Oh, I see; that's an interesting interpretation, if a bit too out there for my tastes. And definitely too grimdark. My other counterargument to it would be simply that it's bad writing to have a narrator that completely deluded without any real tells, and I don't think ZUN is a bad writer in general, but then anyone can slip up. Also, much as it'd be nice to get Keine's opinion (aside from her appearances in Inaba, which I personally do take as less canon than other things, though still reasonably canon) surely the fact that she does associate with Mokou and protects her must mean something... even if it were only pity.

(And not really related, but as far as the balance of grimdark vs playing by the rules goes, I'm very much liking the impression the Grimoire of Marisa's been giving me of Spell Card battles -- still basically a game, but a pretty rough game that may just edge into dangerous territory if your opponent doesn't care about playing it safe. I don't care for grimdark in my Touhou, but I think it does a good job of being lighthearted without being shallow.)

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I'll go with that... except for the youkai-hunting job - from what I understand, her job is to maintain the Shrine so as the border doesn't wear down, and she youkai-hunts for the hell of it.
Hmm, I did overstate that, might have gotten things mixed up. Though incident resolution/youkai hunting is still her job at least in the sense of a career, and it is still apparently traditional for Hakurei shrine maidens -- but to make up for the lack of donations (and Reimu probably has that even worse than those before her since she's terrible about gathering faith).

UFO is a bit problematic all around, though to be fair it's problematic for all the heroines. I'm on the side that there were good arguments to be made for them that weren't, or at least it all could have been laid out better, which is frustrating. I guess the best excuse for that is that the heroines are young and impetuous with narrow views of the world, and the stakes aren't high anyway, but ennh. In the end, their fighting Byakuren really didn't seem necessary, but Byakuren also seems to end up changing her mind about them and feeling she doesn't need to oppose them either.

But really, the jerkass Reimu thing really is just a generalized pet peeve of mine. And invincible, I forgot that part. Invincible jerkass Reimu.

Oh, and Sanae's not that bad. It's her first time trying out the youkai extermination routine, she gets overexcited and carried away. Since it seems like she's a wee bit of a geek, a real-life game of being the awesome hero vanquishing monsters probably appeals to her a lot...
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Slowpoke on September 10, 2009, 08:01:31 PM
I like your analysis of Mystia's theme...it kind of matches ZUN's own comments.

I have a different opinion of Capriccio from most people - I actually think the piece is lazy (notice that the first twelve seconds of it consist of only three pitches), violent, brutal, and obvious, fitting Reimu's character perfectly. But never mind that, it's your thread and everyone's entitled to their opinion.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 11, 2009, 07:55:35 AM
I have a different opinion of Capriccio from most people - I actually think the piece is lazy (notice that the first twelve seconds of it consist of only three pitches), violent, brutal, and obvious, fitting Reimu's character perfectly. But never mind that, it's your thread and everyone's entitled to their opinion.

But I want to hear other people's opinions, so I'm going to go out and ask - could you elaborate as well as you can on why you think Capriccio is what you say it is? I accept that I could be missing something.

That said, I'll mess around with order in the hopes of getting a response, and go with...

Marisa Kirisame - Love-Coloured Master Spark

It occurs to me immediately how often I've heard the theme when fighting Marisa as a boss as opposed to listening to the track by itself - my mind overlays the whmmmmmmmm sound of the Master Spark at certain points in the piece, and it keeps seeming to me that without those, it lacks something. Fortunately, it's kinda there in the music at 1:18, so a homage has been made and all is well.

The introduction is short, mostly there to establish a few first beats for the piece, and quickly makes way for the melody. Clocking in at 11-ish seconds, I think it's the shortest introduction we've had yet. That already says something about Marisa - she's not one to ramble or beat about the bush. She understands the need to establish who's who and what's what, and to make sure a spade is a spade, and will be absolutely charming about it for the first couple of seconds (extremely melodic trumpets, within a very comfortable hearing range - never too high to be shrill or too low to growl), before tossing decorum out of the window and adopting a familiarity with the listener to perhaps an uncomfortable degree (to the listener) - the melody that follows is extremely open-hearted about its optimism, almost child-like, completely unashemedly replete with the melodic line hopping happily all over the place, full of ornamentation. Still completely charming though, never harsh on the ears by pitch or amount of instrumentation used. Hell, even the instrument used for the melody - some sort of pipe organ, I believe - is so very gentle, none of those trumpets that we've had previously.

It is that charm that binds the piece together so well - the melody has three distinct parts, the first two played in pipe organ, with relatively light accompaniment, to really put the listener at ease. For the third the trumpets are introduced, but so organically that it doesn't shock or worry (the motif clearly requested that some more instrumentation be added, and there was nothing else to add besides things ZUN doesn't usually use). That last part does carry a distinct power that has built up without anyone noticing - the melody is what is usually described as "triumphant", with a strong complexity in the accompaniment, although the accompaniment never overshadows the melody - it's always Marisa first, her power second, always naturally, never threatening. And then the melody appears to loop, with a few minor changes, but nothing unexpected. The listener is aware of the power that Marisa holds, occasionally noticing it bubbling behind her utterly open and positive exterior, but compared to the things they've experienced, Marisa seems to be nothing more than a happy-go-lucky, optimistic, ordinary (magician) girl.

BAM, giant laser too close to your face for comfort at 1:18, blowing away something in the distance, forcing a bit of a double-take, the listener going "where did that come from?" Looking back at Marisa, she's just the same as ever, the distant threat (or nonthreat) out of her mind already. The listener won't get any reasons for Marisa nearly blowing his head off - Marisa won't give them since the situation's already passed. Perhaps there weren't any, perhaps she was in control, or, perhaps, on the contrary, she fudged the spell - none of it matters, problem's over.

Marisa has none of the intensity we might get from the other protagonists in the series. She's very open about herself and her feelings, which usually means her optimism shines like a beacon. She's also pleasant to be around unless you hate happy people - her mannerisms rarely grate, she's rarely too much to handle (though she might get a little loud for certain tastes - the trumpets are quite powerful towards the end of the third part of the melody). She knows her power well, but she always considers things as herself, not as someone with an array of magical firepower - her power never overwhelms her personality. She also has a tendency to shoot giant lasers at things, usually to those things' extreme surprise.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 11, 2009, 11:50:59 AM
Time to take the bull by the horns.

Reimu Hakurei - Maiden's Capriccio ~ Dream Battle

I think I've got it now: Capriccio is cold. Unlike Master Spark the instrumentation has a piercing quality to it, presenting the melody to the listener without caring whether the listener receives harm or not. Having now written my analysis, I realise it's also much more than that, but that coldness is a key factor.

The first few seconds are unique across all the music in Touhou so far ? it?s an alien sound, completely lacking any indication of what is to come. It?s also built on a diminished chord, thus having a frightening quality to it. It is an intense, withering stare directed at the listener, daring them to come closer ? Reimu is sizing them up, her distrust, or even hostility, showing clearly.

Suddenly she?s done sizing up, and her attitude becomes that of calculated force. The two cadences presented in this sequence are very textbook, and presented thus in a practiced manner without any deviations. Once again, these are overt challenges ? aggressive declarations. Imagine a hostile police officer asking your name and occupation before arresting you by stating them and having you agree ? he is playing by the book, but he doesn?t like you, and doesn?t have to show it. In fact, I?m tempted to say this is the bit where Reimu declares Spell Card rules in a sharp tone that allows no argument.

I think this is something to consider throughout the piece as a fundamental fact: Reimu doesn?t like you. She probably doesn?t hate you, but she won?t be chummy for the hell of it like Marisa would. She will make sure the listener is well-aware of her dislike by colouring her declaration somehow ? a facial expression, an intonation, perhaps ? demonstrated by the bubbling piano underlay that sits in the upper octaves, almost coming over the chords, but never actually doing so. Once the declarations are done, this attitude will come to the forefront, but audibly ? and incredibly reluctantly - die out once Reimu?s probably realized she?s made herself clear.

This attitude would probably continue if Reimu wasn?t the complicated oddity she actually seems to be. The second melody goes from stone-cold to forced, desperate outburst with the simple addition of overdrive (I think) guitar on top of the regular melody line, and those fast-paced piano undertones of dislike suddenly seem to develop into a powerful statement for wistfulness. When we move back to the challenges presented initially, they?ve lost their edge, as if Reimu wasn?t quite so sure any more of her objective. She?s not letting the listener in on her emotions though ? the melody quickly moves back into assertion (the one played initially after the dying-down piano), keeping its strength for a few repetitions before falling into its own trap and following the line of the overdrive guitar as before.

Maiden?s Capriccio is hard to interpret, it?s incredibly busy, with overtones and undertones, variations and subtleties that can be analysed to Hell and back, and one could still miss a critical point. I?ll try my best.

Reimu, ultimately, has trouble understanding herself. This has led to her putting up a hostile fa?ade to most interactions, but this often turns out for the worse, as she begins to second-guess herself, realizing that she does not know what will show when she drops her hostility. She will keep trying to understand herself better, and does not care if this confuses others, harms them, or attracts them. It is not obvious why she will not let others in on her troubles, why she insists on this introspection being hers alone, despite never having any progress with it. Maybe that artificial feeling of dislike towards everyone that she has cultivated has rubbed off on her actual personality and she has trouble letting go of that as well.

[edit] After the weekend I'll be back with, hopefully, the end of IN, and the few themes that we get in PoFV! I'll post a question now so as to better judge later - I understand that Aya's theme Wind God Girl was introduced in PoFV. Do you folks mind if I wait for it until SWR? I absolutely love the SWR rendition, and I feel it captures "gonzo journalist" with aplomb.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on September 11, 2009, 01:11:08 PM
Maiden's Capriccio IS very weird, just like Reimu is.

I think it reflects something of trust issues. Anyone she's ever associated with, she's fought them at first meeting. Perhaps she has a hard time trusting other people because she was left alone to guard the shrine for so long.

The cold harshness the song starts off on is her initial attitude. She doesn't trust this new person, so she is hostile towards them. The song softens up as she starts too though. I think it is something of apprehension, is she doing the right thing fighting this person?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Hieda no Aya on September 11, 2009, 04:54:03 PM
Going back to Love-Colored Master Spark, I always thought it really suited Marisa perfectly: cute and energetic, but also forceful, with a legitimately dangerous undercurrent. It's that guitar... The odd thing about that is that her other themes aren't like it at all; they tend to be a lot darker and more nostalgic. Actually, come to think of it, side-by-side comparisons for characters who have multiple themes could be very interesting.

As for Wind God Girl, you should do what you want. But if you want other opinions, I'll say that to my mind, if you want to do character interpretations for songs, it would make more sense sticking to the songs as originally written by the guy who also created the characters. Either way, though, I do demand at least some acknowledgement of the extended version that came with Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red, which I believe actually is the original version of the song and which adds a lot of stuff compared to the one in PoFV.

Incidentally, I have that song-irretrievably-associated-with-sound-effects thing with Hiroari Shoots a Strange Bird. Just doesn't sound right without the time-slowing bells.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 14, 2009, 06:56:34 AM
Hey everyone, I'm back and I'll apologize for the lack of an immediate update - I went over my Reisen entry and realised it was a sad trainwreck of an analysis, so I've scrapped pretty much the whole thing and am going to start over.

I'll have a look at Marisa's other themes, and add side-by-side comparisons to my list of projects once this one's done.

As for Wind God Girl - I'll do the PoFV one, and will add a few comments on the extended BAiJR version.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 14, 2009, 08:21:56 AM
Reisen Udongein Inaba ? Lunatic Eyes ~ Invisible Full Moon

This piece is less a continuous description of Reisen?s character more than it is a set of clips taken at random points in her daily life, showing widely varying character aspects that come together to show us a great view of Reisen's personality.

The introduction sounds strange, no two words about it. *checks* Yep, I?ve gone over something like this before, so you might find some familiar elements if you compare Lunatic Eyes to Doll Judgment. The repeating themes oscillate up and down in an interval of a perfect fourth, leading to parallel fourths (against classical composition sensibilities) making up the entire introduction, telling us that yes, Reisen is strange, and is not going to get less so if you just keep on looking. Better yet, the arpeggio that makes up each individual part of the motif is a diminished minor chord by itself, hostile and unapproachable, making the entire section wonderfully twisted. Thus our first clip ? a wary and unfamiliar Reisen is an alien Reisen. Imagine those stereoscopic pictures you get ? a mass of shapes and colours, and if you don?t know what to do, how to look properly, it?s just not going to make any sense. Unfortunately, the stereoscopic picture that is Reisen is not going to give instructions on how to approach her properly.

The second clip I like to think of showing Reisen doing whatever assignment she might have. It?s characterized by two distinct parts: chords carefully and slowly going down, and arpeggioes that get quicker and finer going up. Additionally, we have a refreshing break from the strange non-melody of the introduction, although there isn?t much melody in this part either, it?s still more melodic. The accompaniment is extremely minimal in this section, just a single broken chord, with no additional instrumental support. This leads to an interesting contrast between the up and down sections. In the down-moving section, the combination of simple chords moving down in a scale into a cadence at the end with little accompaniment suggests simplicity and lack of complication. On the other hand, the section going up starts off simple, but becomes quicker and quicker as it reaches the top, culminating in a series of extremely precise and detailed arpeggioes, which, when combined with a simple accompaniment, suggests extreme focus on one single thing, removing any potential distractions. What does that say? I feel it says that Reisen comes in two flavours ? simple and straightforward at one time, but equally capable of intense detail and concentration at another, and she does not have any real preference between the two, applying each as required. She can easily differentiate these two aspects, and never allows them to mix ? she is thus careful and diligent in her work. She rarely allows emotion to colour her professional input.

Third clip starts with that unmissable rock guitar. Clearly it says one thing ? Reisen rocks! This section is rich in instrumentation, loud and boisterous, in a major key, daring to switch from the piano to the trumpets. This, I would like to think, is Reisen off-duty and amongst friends. She is outgoing and generous, eagerly voicing her thoughts, letting positive emotion colour them. It is as if all those suppressed feelings in the first and second clips just explode here ? this is the only real melodic section in the piece. The melody itself is nothing to look at, the usual 2x8-bar fare with a bit of a variation in the second set of 8 bars, but it?s not the melody that is important here ? it?s the contrasting outburst that really makes this section live.

I don?t have much more to say about Reisen ? she is very professional, very serious in separating her work from play, she is like the person who you know is seen as a complete weirdo by others, but they make sense to you completely because you know them, and, in fact, she is a very social and outward person, but only at the appropriate time.


(For those curious, I identify perfect fourths by comparing them to the two opening notes from the Russian national anthem, which are, obviously, a perfect fourth. It's a neat little shortcut from sounding out scales in my head.)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 14, 2009, 11:41:36 AM
Took me a while to get here, but we're finally on the Imperishable Night final stretch!

Eirin Yagokoro - Gensokyo Millennium ~ History of the Moon

Much like Septette and Cherry Blossom of Sumizome before it, Millennium is chock-full of stuff, obviously fitting for a 1000+-year-old space nurse.

A large part of this piece is its majesty, its loftiness and its aged elegance. The first 22 seconds are a pan up, as it were, of the listener's perception all the way up Eirin's imposing figure to the piercing gaze of her eyes. The sonorous piano chords and carefully-measured arpeggioes combined with long, powerful trumpet notes accompanying show us the presence that Eirin commands, her charisma, combined with a shrewd perception of her surroundings.

The first part starts with trumpets playing the melody supported by strings - violins, specifically, playing long, legato notes. The piece lifts the listener way up in the clouds and stays there, the sweeping melody of the trumpet and strings presenting an immense feeling of freedom in a vast space, and, importantly, of one's being totally in control there. The melody suddenly loses focus of the surroundings as the instrumentation changes to what I can only describe as down-to-earth. The melody's still the same, so we're still looking at the same person, in the same place, but the focus has moved from the freedom to the humility. Don't get me wrong, that does not mean simplicity - the instrumentation comprising the melody has, from what I can tell, pipe organ, piano and guitar, giving a thick, worldly sound. The strings have gone so as not call our attention back to the vastness that's being hidden behind Eirin. Eirin is naturally majestic, easily earning the "larger-than-life" descriptor. That does not stop her from noticing the everyday things around her, from stooping down to understand those without a force of personality to match hers. She is thus compassionate.

The second part is a connecting passage to the third, here to lift the listener to the vastness of space where Eirin is so comfortable. Imagine this part as the takeoff of a rocket: the resonant piano chords and arpeggioes sort of mill about on the spot, seemingly impatient to get somewhere - the rocket enters its ignition sequence and the flames and fumes obscure the whole launch platform as the rocket unbearably slowly rises into the air, and then those octaves come in, mirroring the might of the craft's inoxerable movement upwards, the arpeggioes getting higher and higher in pitch...

And the third part is back where the first one started, and here to explore Eirin in her natural state of majesty. The instrumentation will remain trumpet and piano for a while, and texture-wise notes are always long and sparse, especially in the melody, to maintain that open-space feeling. The accompaniment quickly increases in note density, however, to contrast the melody: this is something that we've noticed in other characters, something that shows power bubbling just below the surface - in Eirin's case it elegantly flows from the accompaniment to her "majestic" character, so I'd say that it's Eirin's power that gives her that force of personality. It does not flow out unchecked like in Yukari's case, but, rather, it does not need to be controlled - it's natural flow is completely within Eirin, if you understand what I'm trying to say.
It's interesting that even when the melody switches gears by changing key it stays the same, with the same accompaniment and texture - Eirin remains herself regardless of what she does. She is not one to trick with false pretenses, instead she will simply approach a different situation with a different approach, but with her usual character.

A small intermezzo has ZUN riffing away. Much like in Septette, this part sounds improvised (I means emphasis on freeform playing around the melody, like jazz improvisation, not poorly-prepared, you naysayers you), showing Eirin has a tendency, maybe a bit like Remilia, to self-indulgent outbursts, something strongly at odds with the rest of her theme. These are rare and short-lived as Eirin catches herself - or someone else catches her at it - and hastily returns to her usual attitude - but this time it might be a bit of an embarassed act, as the improvisational motif can be clearly heard in the background. I would think that Eirin does not like being caught when not in full control of her situation. I would like to theorize that Eirin might be slightly ashamed at having picked up distinctly Earthly mannerisms, specifically selfishness and self-indulgence. Despite that, they remain a guilty pleasure to her.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 15, 2009, 08:28:27 AM
*Fightest briefly wonders if he's chased away his usual crowd*

Kaguya Houraisan - Flight of the Bamboo Cutter ~ Lunatic Princess

This piece has a good demonstration of how instrumentation reveals character aspects as opposed to overt changes in the melody or accompaniment. Curiously, there isn't as much stuff going on here as Millennium, Septette or Cherry Blossom. I guess Kaguya is still a child, despite being a thousand-plus-years-old, and simply hasn't developed the complications and contradictions present in an adult.

Those first 15 seconds set the pace of the rest of the piece, to me. Only Bamboo Cutter and Cherry Blossom so far have that little pre-introduction that has a motif that will be repeated in the melody proper. Curious, I read ahead and found out that this won't happened again in any boss theme up to and including Cosmic Mind. Perhaps it's unique to princesses? After all, royalty is raised to present a proper image from first impressions, so I would think that Kaguya is well-versed in that - we hear a charming melody, maybe even childishly so in its simplicity, yet calm and measured, as befits nobility, with an echoing tone provided by the synthesiser to instill a sense of cosmic majesty.

Kaguya is impatient, however, and this impatience shows through in the broken chords that start bubbling away behind that melody, growing louder and louder until they overcome the melody to explode out. But it's not a childish tantrum - the broken chords stay in a low pitch, the instrument (a hard-to-define synthesiser sound, perhaps again a pipe organ variant) making it an ominous hum. This, I feel, is the seething fury of frustration and annoyance - Kaguya does not enjoy putting on regal airs, she feels the whole "noblesse oblige" thing holds her back, slows her down.

This is well-demonstrated in the first proper part of the piece. The melody is the same as in the first 15 seconds, but it has more volume, more force behind it in the trumpet, and it is also faster. This is the same Kaguya, but with all the stops pulled out, without the artificial and annoying mannerisms that she is forced - or that she forces herself - to put on. The "real" Kaguya is strong, confident, hard-to-miss. Curiously, the melody loses much sense of individuality in the first part, as we've heard plenty of powerful trumpet motifs before that show strength and confidence. It is possible that this is something Kaguya desires - maybe she is showing that she can kick butt just as well as anyone else. Perhaps she doesn't like her sense of individuality coming from a title and the assumptions that come with it, as opposed to her actual personality.

The first part was far more of a tantrum than the frustrated fury before it, and as it ends, we see that Kaguya isn't done. The connecting passage has not calmed down much, still maintaining its harsh tempo throughout. It's not the fury as before, but, perhaps, that feeling that occurs when one's vented all one's anger, but the feeling of rage hasn't yet fully subsided, so they thrash around simply due to momentum more than anything else. And then Kaguya catches herself. The transition is too sudden to be a natural calming process, so it had to have been a conscious effort.

The third part starts somewhat more controlled, more regal - the trumpet notes are long, the accompaniment is likewise. Both sit in a relatively low pitch to demonstrate that there is no exuberance or lack of control here. Unfortunately this stays for all of 4 bars, before that treacherous pipe-organ-thing starts up again, this time in the upper octaves - where it was a growl in the lower octaves, now it's cute and flighty. The trumpet melody appears to try to suppress the pipes' uncontrolled nature, but appears to give up as the pipes are joined by piano, also in high pitch, demanding for that part to be heard.

Much as many other characters, Kaguya has two sides to her - the child and the princess. In Kaguya's case, however, one of these sides - the princess - is completely, forcefully, constructed by Kaguya herself. It is very likely that she dislikes this side of her that was deemed necessary by whoever brought her up. Despite that, she has a natural regal bearing, which is coloured strongly by her mental youth - the child sometimes demands things that the princess can never indulge in. The two sides are frequently in conflict, each having its upper hand every once in a while. This leads to Kaguya being almost perpetually annoyed and frustrated as her wants are never fully satisfied, and she has nobody to truly blame but herself, so she lashes out at everyone instead.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 15, 2009, 11:19:48 AM
Final one for Imperishable Night!

Fujiwara no Mokou - Reach for the Moon, Immortal Smoke

I mentioned upthread that I had trouble seeing Mokou in this particular piece. Now, I'm beginning to come around to see the more positive side of her, but I'm still not there, so this analysis might not really be on the mark.

Unlike the previous extra boss themes, this one starts off surprisingly like Kaguya's. In fact, the entire piece is uncannily similar to Bamboo Cutter, structurally speaking. Now, the little characteristics that make the characters stand out are different, but there's something to be said how alike the two of them are. I won't really go much deeper into this, there's plenty to Mokou as it is. The pre-introduction introduces a melody that will stay for most of the rest of the piece. Mokou is of a noble family, so perhaps it, indeed, is something common to aristocratic characters to explicitly introduce a major character theme so quickly.

I'll postpone the content of the pre-introduction until later and go into the part that immediately follows it, the one that mirrors Kaguya's frustration. The busy, unrelenting, menacingly deep sound of the organ to me portrays one thing above all others - fire. The kind of fire that you see enveloping a large building on the inside - it seems to just cover every surface with a thick, everflowing layer of colour and heat. Not the sudden, explosive fire of a flamethrower or a bomb's fireball, but the enveloping, elder blaze of a forest fire, or the creeping inferno of a lava flow (god I love all these fire-related words). In other words, Mokou's fire is experienced and ancient.

Unfortunately, Mokou herself seems to lack the ancient wisdom present in her fire. The melody that was introduced in the pre-introduction has a very distinct Oriental air to it, most likely due to the harmonic minor scales and augmented second intervals that keep going around in it. Considering Mokou's backstory, this could well be the portrayal of the sensibilities of her past. Consider how this motif is repeated, over and over, like a mantra, burning (ha!) itself into the listener's mind. Despite Gensokyo as a positive setting (from here on I'll refer to it as Gensokyo+, as it seems to want to crop up all the time), Mokou will have dark sides to her no matter how her story is spun - and in this case I wish to present that perhaps Mokou is suffering an existential crisis from having realised that she's been living pretty much 1300 years in the past, letting centuries just pass her by, eventually coming to the conclusion that there currently is nothing to her. I believe that Mokou is not satisfied with this, and has begun searching for herself that exists now, as opposed to back then. The constant repeat of that motif might show that Mokou is using her distant past as an anchor point, a part in her life that she can really remember herself in. She might even mock herself for this - the motif picks up some distinct whimsical electronic tones in the higher pitch. We'll find out more about this later.

The piece moves onto the fire again - unchanged, still as awesome and menacing as ever. It is certainly possible that Mokou takes comfort and relief from any psychological issues she might have in giving herself over to the spirit of fire that resides within her (figure of speech, but from what I remember of canon, this might be not too far off from being literal).

The next part starts off with an unusual instrumental choice - small, melodic bells playing a whimsical, mostly meaningless series of notes - not even really a tune but more of a set of arpeggioes and broken chords, an exercise, something to add to the anchor motif that remains in the background. Perhaps Mokou is searching for herself by trying out unusual behaviours, unusual mannerisms, seeing if any part of them fits? That distinct sound of self-mocking is still there, but the bell exercise continues unperturbed, and soon enough merges with the anchor, creating something that wasn't there, something greater than the sum of its parts.

Perhaps tired, the melody reverts to its anchor, before excitedly bringing the bells back for another go. Has Mokou found something concrete? Something to add to herself that isn't a 1300-year-old memory? Mokou certainly thinks so - triumphant trumpets, all long and legato superimpose on top of the anchor, the bells still there, jingling away in their newfound place - all show a sense of honest victory. The anchor still remains though, perhaps as Mokou reminds herself that there is still much to find out about herself, and she cannot afford to lose what little progress she made this time.

Having gone through this analysis, I'm actually very satisfied with this version of Mokou - realising, perhaps with a sense of dismay, that there was nothing more to her than a millenium-old set of memories, Mokou carefully and methodically started putting together a personality for herself, something she can call "I" without shame or artifice. It's a slow, exhausting process, but it clearly yields results, as we can see how the piece with a lot of effort and finality progresses from "anchor" to "anchor+bells" (to "anchor+bells+trumpets" to celebrate, but I don't think it really counts). To summarise, Mokou is hardcore - instead of moping about not understanding who she is, and taking the long and winding path up an imaginary mountain, letting circumstance tell her what her lot in life is, she punches through the mountain and picks up what comes raining down at her leisure.

I've just made Mokou my most favourite Touhou character ever to myself, and if I keep writing I'll just start gushing. With this extremely satisfying note I'll end my analysis of Imperishable Night. Next up should be Phantasmagoria of Flower View, but I don't feel like I've listened to it enough. Also it's not actually on my mp3 player. I'll see what I do next, but I'll try my best not to break continuity.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Prody on September 15, 2009, 12:48:02 PM
Reach For The Moon is a really cool song. I enjoy songs like Native Faith and Reach For the Moon...what do they have in common here?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 15, 2009, 02:32:12 PM
Reach For The Moon is a really cool song. I enjoy songs like Native Faith and Reach For the Moon...what do they have in common here?

I would say, without reading too far ahead into Mountain of Faith, that you enjoy the contrast between absurdly fast interludes and generally calm melodic parts. Maybe the feeling that, despite how gentle or calm the character may appear, they've got some serious mojo available to them at a moment's notice? Do you like Bamboo Cutter? If not, then I can't be too sure about what I said without looking at Native Faith more closely.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on September 15, 2009, 03:25:42 PM
Awesome stuff. I especially enjoy your analysis on Eirin and Mokou.

I'm really looking forward to Suwa-Foughten Field and Green-Eyed Jealousy.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tarquinius on September 15, 2009, 07:12:38 PM
Mokou's one of my favourite characters, and I really like the way that your analysis portrays her. Now I'm curious as to how you'll approach the themes of my other favourite characters: Satori Maiden and Fate of Sixty Years.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Nine West on September 17, 2009, 12:29:53 AM
I would say, without reading too far ahead into Mountain of Faith, that you enjoy the contrast between absurdly fast interludes and generally calm melodic parts. Maybe the feeling that, despite how gentle or calm the character may appear, they've got some serious mojo available to them at a moment's notice? Do you like Bamboo Cutter? If not, then I can't be too sure about what I said without looking at Native Faith more closely.

Well, you nailed me there.

Lunatic Princess and Reach For the Moon are so alike in structure that I actually confused the latter for the former the first time hearing them both.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: DeathShot Catharsis on September 17, 2009, 02:10:38 AM
I would say, without reading too far ahead into Mountain of Faith, that you enjoy the contrast between absurdly fast interludes and generally calm melodic parts. Maybe the feeling that, despite how gentle or calm the character may appear, they've got some serious mojo available to them at a moment's notice? Do you like Bamboo Cutter? If not, then I can't be too sure about what I said without looking at Native Faith more closely.

Well, you nailed me there.

Lunatic Princess and Reach For the Moon are so alike in structure that I actually confused the latter for the former the first time hearing them both.

That's odd, I found Gensokyo Millennium to be very similar to Reach For The Moon.

I do notice the similarities to Lunatic Princess, though.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 17, 2009, 07:03:10 AM
Sorry for no update yesterday guys, much such stuff happens, a thing came up, but it's all done now, so all's well. I also got the PoFV soundtrack on my mp3 player of choice, so I can actually listen to it with any degree of regularity. And, as a final comment, I guess it's telling that nobody mentioned Medicine when I was talking about newly-introduced characters...and...oh my, having just checked the track list, it seems Yuka is there too. Well then, I guess I have my work cut out for me.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 17, 2009, 09:16:19 AM
Aya Shameimaru ? Wind God Girl

I just realized how little I know about Aya besides her shocking unprofessionalism gonzo reporter-ness. I know she?s the fastest flier in Gensokyo, I know she?s a tengu (which is apparently a goblin-like creature), and that?s about it. This means I?m going into this analysis pretty much blind. This will be a good warm-up for Poison Body ~ Forsaken Doll, then. Also, I don?t really get the title. How is Aya related to wind? I assume the ?God? bit is a slight misnomer, as Aya is not a god. Unless she is? Could someone clear this up for me?

The pre-introduction is already delicious. The trumpets explode into a fast-paced, energetic little melodic passage, change their mind and abruptly change to another melodic passage, then change their minds again and move into yet another passage, just as melodic (and fast paced and energetic) as the previous two. This is a clear character trait ? when doing something, anything, Aya lunges wildly at it without making any plans more long-term than the first syllable. This inevitably leads to her possibly tripping up over herself trying to get the best angle, but it all happens with such energy and determination that it might seem that there?s three of her, all vying for centre position. She is most certainly the ?act first, think later? type, and this characteristic is at the very forefront of her behaviour.

The second part of the pre-introduction, the downwards-moving broken chords set up the scorching tempo of the rest of the piece ? the organ makes sure the accompaniment stands out, establishing this harshly quick beat as an important entity. The little part with ornamentation stands out from the rhythmic beat, demonstrating that Aya is entirely comfortable at this tempo and perfectly capable of sly subtleties, or the occasional digression. The general feeling is that Aya can go even faster, but keeps her pace reduced so as not to overwhelm the listener.

The first part of the piece introduces an extremely characteristic set of cadences that will remain a beacon, as it were, for the rest of the piece. Remember how I?ve mentioned in previous entries on how unusual the perfect fourth is, how, if made parallel, it sounds weird? Well, here is the other sound that the perfect fourth can make ? daring and bold, a loud announcement of intent that calls all attention to itself. Simply put, Aya is bold and daring. Her presence irrevocably changes a scene because, behold! She. Is. There. Despite what she might say, she is in the reporting business for the fame and glory (perhaps not the best of career choices), which easily explains her gonzo attitude to her journalism ? she desires attention, and gets it through highly embellished and opinionated stories, through controversiality. The announcement is so ingrained into the piece, however, that it goes beyond the conscious effort of the attention-whore, but is a core part of Aya?s personality, something subconscious ? she might not even realize why her attitude gets her so much attention, positive or otherwise, but she revels in it either way.

There are two melodic parts in the piece, both characterized by a trumpet melody with long notes, compared to the accompaniment. I don?t feel there is much point looking at them separately, as they serve pretty much a singular purpose: they are absolutely beautiful. I am under the impression that Wind God Girl is a popular piece, and I would claim this is due to these two melodic parts. Why are they beautiful? Musically-speaking, it is because they have a clear and simple melodic line, with an excellent blend of major and minor harmonies. All these harmonies are, are a set of chord progressions, leading naturally from one chord to another. Of course, it?s a slightly more complicated set than tonic-subdominant-dominant, but it?s still classic (well, more Romantic, technically-speaking) and textbook. It is this progression that makes it sound so appealing ? each chord sets up the next one, pulling the listener along, making him want the music to continue. There is no further complication in melody or harmony in these parts, so a sense of simplicity is also present. Additionally, due to the variety in the harmony that is present, there is a feeling of exceptional open-heartedness ? the music doesn?t hold itself in, does not suppress any emotional urges, but instead dumps every emotion it can muster on the listener. This all comes together to create the image of an ultimately honest Aya, someone who will just shout out everything she feels, whether good or bad, since there?s too much in her to really hold it in. Aya can be described as one of those people who wear their emotions on the outside.

As a final comment, I listened through the extended version of Wind God Girl, and what really jumped out at me was the (in hindsight, painfully obvious) improvisation section. I?m really getting the impression that ZUN loves to riff when he can, and this bit in Wind God Girl is entirely appropriate ? considering that I?ve established a improvisational riff as a portrayal of a stream-of-consciousness, it shows Aya as a great extrovert, someone whom emotions pour off and rub off on other people. A happy Aya is the life of the party. A sad Aya is depressing to even look at. Perhaps Aya should consider a career change to motivational speaker or keynote presenter?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tengukami on September 17, 2009, 09:23:16 AM
Also, I don?t really get the title. How is Aya related to wind? I assume the ?God? bit is a slight misnomer, as Aya is not a god. Unless she is? Could someone clear this up for me?

In Japanese folklore the hauchiwa the tengu carries is capable of creating strong winds, and then there's the fact that they fly. But traditionally tengu are associated with mountains.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tengukami on September 17, 2009, 09:31:07 AM
Also, this Aya fan enjoyed your interprettation of WGG. I have nothing to add.

it shows Aya as a great extrovert, someone whom emotions pour off and rub off on other people. A happy Aya is the life of the party. A sad Aya is depressing to even look at. Perhaps Aya should consider a career change to motivational speaker or keynote presenter?

Since she has a natural penchant for photography, and might even be using journalism as an excuse to take pictures, I think Aya would actually be better off as a film-maker. I can see her writing a script and directing it, with the other girls in the cast, some of them happier with the results than others.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: 8lue Wizard on September 17, 2009, 10:30:53 AM
Wind God Girl might be a reference to Wind God Gau, a well-known setup of a certain character from Final Fantasy 6. Then again, I have no clue what the Japanese name for it is, so it might just be coincidental.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 17, 2009, 02:13:09 PM
Sorry everyone, I was gonna do an entry on Medicine, but I'll leave that off until tomorrow, as I'm having trouble putting words to thoughts. I'll hope that my Aya entry is enough to tide you over. I'll just point out - I'm really surprised that Medicine is really unpopular - that theme of hers is gold.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 18, 2009, 07:50:03 AM
I know nothing of Medicine, except that she's a doll youkai. Thus, I am going in blind, but, fortunately, this is quite a forgiving piece.

Medicine Melancholy ? Poison Body ~ Forsaken Doll

The instrumentation choice very quickly sets the mood of the piece: organ and bells in addition to the usual trumpet and piano provide an intense gothic atmosphere ? dark, foreboding and extremely unforgiving.

Like with many other characters that have some sort of psychological issue, this piece contains a desperate mantra of its own, the constantly-repeated diminished chords that use the main notes of a minor chord as starting points (first four bars on one note, next four bars on the next etc.). In Medicine?s case, the mantra could have been used for any number of reasons, but self-assertion is most likely, something that is burned into one?s own mind to make it a part of their very being. The fact that Medicine is creating this sort of attitude ? one shown by oppressive minor - suggests extreme spite, a hope of revenge against an unknown person.

There is only one other aspect to the piece, really, which is in the melody. The entire melodic line is in ? time, as opposed to the 4/4 of the accompaniment. Not only that, but the melodic line clearly does not follow the strong beats of the accompaniment, instead going for syncopation. Syncopation means broken rhythm. ?Broken? is the key word ? the entire melody demonstrates on a pedestal just how broken Medicine is. The melodic line itself is perfectly fine and stable, quite elegant in its adherence to scales, actually, so, outwardly, Medicine looks perfectly normal, maybe even attractive. Only when she starts to move that the flaws come through ? her body itself does not seem to move in the correct rhythm, some parts moving in one way, others in another.

Put simply, Medicine?s self is broken, much like her body. Forsaken Doll is an incredibly apt title for her, and, despite Gensokyo+, I?m having real trouble finding optimistic aspects to her. Perhaps I?ll come back to this piece a smidge later and see if I get any new ideas.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 18, 2009, 11:58:10 AM
Hmm, it really seems that nobody cares about Medicine. I could associate with that, there are practically no endearing factors to her - the broken girl-moe is nuked by the manical focus on some undefined vengeance, and any sympathy for said maniacal vengeance, like with, say, Kill Bill's Bride, is made impossible by Medicine being so ambiguously broken - we get no clue as to what broke her, so we can't associate. It really seems that Medicine is in the wrong story, and gets ignored as being inappropriate. Isn't it sad, Medicine?

Yuka Kazami - Gensokyo, Past and Present ~ Flower Land

Only slightly more familiar with Yuka than with Medicine - I know she's a youkai with power over flowers, and is also apparently ancient, and thus powerful. Unfortunately, her debut Windows theme doesn't detail very much, more painting with large brushstrokes, as it were. Some of the conclusions I come to may be off the mark, so I'd be interested to discuss with anyone more familiar with Yuka.

The introduction carries a dignified power - long organ notes supported by very intermittent piano chords, which are mostly there to provide texture rather than harmony. No running around in fast-paced etudes in either melody or accompaniment - in her usual state Yuka is, well, ponderous, for lack of a better word. Her power glows around her, obvious but not harmful, and Yuka revels in it, enjoying each moment of the day. It would be a mistake to describe her as slow - she just takes a while to get riled.

The next section confirms my thoughts that ZUN loves to riff - we have another improvisation set. The usual characteristics apply - self-indulgent and loves to ponder everything in the world for herself, and only for herself, by herself. The accompaniment makes this bit quite special, though, as it's a harsh one, mostly lacking elegance - trumpets, a sudden and unsettling change in instrumentation, playing the same broken chord over and over. This usually smacks of psychological issues in a character, and considering the section this accompaniment supports, I would say Yuka is quite deeply narcissistic, with a possible superiority complex, considering the repeated chords asserting to Yuka's self the importance of her independence, of valuing and indulging her self.

The third part finally introduces the melody, which supports my claim that Yuka is slow to rile. However, even in her assertive mode, Yuka retains the dignity and power that was present in the introduction - the trumpets, undistracted by any supporting melodic instruments, play long, graceful chords, carefully repeating notes when the melody wishes it. Curiously, that improvisation from the previous part is still heard behind the melody. Perhaps Yuka is showing this side of her to demonstrate her superiority? There's no tantrum, no insecurity, just an absolute conviction that she is just better, and she shows through careful, graceful example. Changing keys, the music loses the support of the improvisation, so perhaps Yuka has deemed her demonstration sufficient, and, now that everything's in place, she can continue enjoying things at her own relaxed tempo.

I believe that Yuka's relaxed, one-step-at-a-time nature is why her power is so hard to notice, and only just barely shows through as a constant glow throughout the piece. It would take a lot of effort indeed to have Yuka demonstrate it all.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Hieda no Aya on September 18, 2009, 03:39:54 PM
Alas, poor Medicine, screwy little thing she is. Fandom is a fickle mistress.

I like your interpretaion on Yuuka -- it's a change of pace from the way people usually represent her, though without actually contradicting it. And I've always had a hard time getting a reliable idea of her, but it fits for me too.

And Aya too, that combination of forceful and easygoing. But it's interesting to me that Aya's and Yuuka's themes are the ones that stand out to you as making it clear that ZUN loves to riff, since I've always gotten the impression they're among his favorite characters too. At least he used to fanboy over Yuuka (youkai moe~ whatever) and, for all the jokes about Aya being ZUN's girlfriend, she actually was sort of designed for his wish fulfillment; he pretty much created her so that he could make Shoot the Bullet. Figures if it's those themes where he really indulges himself. I guess he goes for that carefree, uninhibited, self-focused attitude too.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tengukami on September 18, 2009, 03:51:00 PM
for all the jokes about Aya being ZUN's girlfriend, she actually was sort of designed for his wish fulfillment; he pretty much created her so that he could make Shoot the Bullet.

Hang on - PoFV came before Shoot the Bullet. Was Aya added to PoFV after Shoot the Bullet was already out or something?

But I think you're on to something. Case in point:

(http://i29.tinypic.com/ieebli.jpg)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Hieda no Aya on September 18, 2009, 04:21:57 PM
for all the jokes about Aya being ZUN's girlfriend, she actually was sort of designed for his wish fulfillment; he pretty much created her so that he could make Shoot the Bullet.
Hang on - PoFV came before Shoot the Bullet. Was Aya added to PoFV after Shoot the Bullet was already out or something?

Haha, nah. ZUN talks about this in StB's afterword: he had the basic picture-taking-game idea for a long time, since working on EoSD, but couldn't figure out how to execute it. Eventually he figured that he needed a character who had an actual reason to be taking pictures of danmaku, since it didn't fit any of the existing main characters, so he came up with Aya. I guess he figured it'd be lame to introduce her in her own spinoff, better to establish her as an existing character first? Or maybe it was just luck that PoFV was being made around then. And both those games were closely tied to BAiJR too, naturally.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tengukami on September 18, 2009, 04:30:06 PM
for all the jokes about Aya being ZUN's girlfriend, she actually was sort of designed for his wish fulfillment; he pretty much created her so that he could make Shoot the Bullet.
Hang on - PoFV came before Shoot the Bullet. Was Aya added to PoFV after Shoot the Bullet was already out or something?

Haha, nah. ZUN talks about this in StB's afterword: he had the basic picture-taking-game idea for a long time, since working on EoSD, but couldn't figure out how to execute it. Eventually he figured that he needed a character who had an actual reason to be taking pictures of danmaku, since it didn't fit any of the existing main characters, so he came up with Aya. I guess he figured it'd be lame to introduce her in her own spinoff, better to establish her as an existing character first? Or maybe it was just luck that PoFV was being made around then. And both those games were closely tied to BAiJR too, naturally.

Ah, yeah, quite right. I even read that same interview and thought it was fascinating how Shoot the Bullet became inspired. Don't know why I forgot that.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 19, 2009, 09:31:32 PM
No update today, sorry folks, travelling makes Fightest a tired fellow. However, something does bug me - those two pictures up there ain't that similar. I mean, sure, they've both got the black-white-beige theme going...

Actually, yeah, that red stripe on ZUN matches Aya's hat, and the colour schemes match perfectly. I think I see it now.

Oh yeah, I've been thinking about the times when I say that I'm unfamiliar with some of the characters whose themes I'm listening to and it smacks to me that that sounds awfully lazy and non-committal. I'll be honest and say that I try to familiarize myself with the characters as much as possible from a canon perspective, which inevitably means that characters with very little exposure don't have a lot for me to go on. This is why I'm slightly worried about my upcoming analysis of Fate of Sixty Years - a few people appear to be looking forward to it - but Shikieki only really appears in PoFV, no other canon work, and I've never even finished PoFV, so my starting point is vague indeed. I'll do my best, of course, and hope that it will match expectations. Update on Monday, then, with Komachi and Shikieki.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 20, 2009, 08:37:41 AM
For purposes of accuracy, I've asked someone who's been in the musical business far longer than I have about certain tracks, and found out I've been either somewhat wrong or inaccurate in my musical analysis in some of the weirder pieces. That said, I'll put in this little intermezzo to rectify that.

Without further ado: Fightest Sign ~ Informed Recollection

Flandre Scarlet - U.N. Owen was her

A major factor that induces the ominous feelings of worry and oppression is the presence of harsh clacking sounds throughout the melody, which give a feeling of brutality. Additionally, the introduction really has a tendency to switch from 6/8 to 3/4 time frequently, changing the strong beats and throwing off the listener.

Curiously, if the clacking sounds are removed from the melody it quickly changes from oppressive to uplifting. There's a heavy metal remix of U.N. Owen out there that demonstrates this quite well.


Reisen Udongein Inaba - Lunatic Eyes - Invisible Full Moon

The opening arpeggioes are not related by perfect fourths. The alien-ness comes from mixed tonalities - the tonalities of each arpeggio are totally unrelated with each other, which creates that feeling of dissociation.


That ends this session of Informed Recollection. See you guys Monday!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 21, 2009, 07:00:12 AM
Komachi Onozuka - Higan Retour ~ Riverside View

A notable feature in this track is the lack of ZUN's usual fast tempo. Practically the entire piece moves along at a leisurely pace, the melody built up of long, graceful trumpet notes. Neither is there much variation in the piece - most of it is trumpet or piano in the melody and that off-beat drum and ... something synthetic in the accompaniment. Additionally, there is a barely audible, but incredibly deep and powerful if you know what you're looking for, horn-like bass as harmony.

I'll divide this analysis slightly differently and start with the melody. The melody comprises of three parts: the piano chords repeating a gentle 4-bar non-legato melody, a muted trumpet playing a little rebellious interlude and finally standard paired trumpets coming in with their own straightforward 2x4-bar melody (different from the piano part). The track has no issues switching from one part to another when that part is done, and does so freely, without complicated cadences or sequences.

The first melodic part, the one played in piano (although sometimes has trumpet following along), follows a classical and uncomplicated set of cadences that all eventually lead back to the initial key. It's a relaxed melody that suggests lack of guile and trickery, suggests a what-you-see-is-what-you-get personality. Its grace stems from its being in a different time signature, 3/4, than the rest of the piece, which is in 4/4. 3/4 time signature is the signature in which waltzes are written - simple but beautiful dances, carrying a graceful rhythm, a welcome and familiar mainstay of aristocratic courts during the Victorian period. Just remember the Blue Danube (that one waltz everyone's heard) and see what I'm trying to say - Komachi's attitude to anyone she meets is open and friendly, perhaps overly so, but her simple approach make her easy to be around, and the grace she has, perhaps surprising for her simplicity, means that her presence does not grate over time.

The second melodic part is rebellious for moving into a different time signature, as well as picking a different instrument for itself. A muted trumpet has a comic seriousness to it when compared to unmuted trumpets, like a child puffing themselves up, trying to look bigger to an adult. Such a section can lead to two possible character traits, both related to Komachi having a childish side that comes through every once in a while, being immature about something unexpected: either she is genuinely so, or she does so to mock. Considering the final melodic part, which I'll move on to shortly, I would say it's a mixture of both - she can be surprisingly childish when arguing, or stating a point to someone she disagrees with.

That childishness will always make way for her serious side, though. The trumpets double up in their real, unmuted sound, providing a strong, yet still calm and elegant due to its legato and slow tempo, clear melody. Komachi believes strongly in herself, and will reinforce her importance - the melody changes to a higher pitch, even clearer to the listener.

What Komachi thinks she lacks in quality, she makes up for in quantity - these melodic motifs repeat at least once each in the track, as if Komachi is determined that she be remembered.

Underpinning all this is that deep, powerful and very melodic bass. Serving as harmonic support, it shows Komachi's spiritual strength. Her outward appearance may be simple and predictable, albeit pleasant for the eyes, but there's a power so deep within her that it's barely noticeable, yet a power that reinforces her presence so elegantly yet uncompromisingly. Its low pitch suggests that there is something ancient about that power, something that is really independent of the person carrying it. Komachi seems entirely comfortable with this power.

Komachi prefers a straight approach, and her natural grace carries her through most incidents without issue. She has a tendency to be immature about any odd thing, perhaps adorably so. She might even like to pout. A deep and ancient power resides within her, something she is used to, is comfortable with, and something that perfectly supplements her character without imposing on her personality.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 21, 2009, 12:35:32 PM
Bull, horns, etc.

Shikieki Yamaxanadu - Touhou Judgement in the Sixtieth Year ~ Fate of Sixty Years.

A very noticeable instrument in this piece is the church organ, and whether it?s in the melody or the accompaniment, it?s always audible. The organ?s steady sound and constant volume, in addition to its characteristic brass-ness, provide an unmistakable feeling of something uncompromising, which, combined with a minor key and unrelenting repetition of arpeggioes, give the feeling of something great and terrible, hidden just out of sight, its presence only visible by the shadows it casts. Just listen to the signature song of Phantom of the Opera, and you?ll see exactly what I mean. This organ is going to be the central instrument of the piece ? others might come in to do their part, but the organ will always be there. This is, to me, Shikieki?s duty ? she is a Judge of the Dead, the final arbiter, the bringer of last judgement, etc. etc. and she takes her job extremely seriously, knowing the full extent of the power she wields. Considering the presence of the organ in all the other motifs in her theme, I would say that this attitude might lead to her being overly serious in every aspect of her life, possibly unreasonably so.

In the introduction, the organ is also given a feeling of menace by the harsh percussion (cymbal and clacking) and that unusual sound effect that is unique to this piece ? those precise and focused ?blips?. It?s the latter that really threw me off when listening to this for the first time, it was like the piece was prodding me in extremely specific points, nodding sagely and writing something unknown to me in a notebook. Those blips don?t have a structure to them, they appear almost randomly ? there is still method to them, as they are completely in line with the harmony, and they are just long enough not to be considered staccato, but too short to be non-legato ? they are short, measured prods in strategic locations for an unknown, but clear reason. It is impossible to hide anything from Shikieki when she is doing her work. She will quickly and precisely strike at all the correct strings of the one being judged, who might not even realize that he is being read like an open book.

The first melodic line takes over suddenly from the introduction with a surprisingly long melody - 16 bars long. The melody is slow and has an elegant flow, but develops syncopation in the second half without changing timbre. There is just naturally so much to Shikieki herself that she does not need to make up with quantity ? the casual flow of the long melody gives the impression of long experience with the world, demonstrating with the broken rhythm in the second half that she understands that not all is serious business in the world, and, perhaps might want to give the impression that she can have fun as well. This is, of course, undermined by that ever-present organ in the background, complete with blips, showing Shiki?s cold, analyzing gaze underneath what she might think may be a warm expression.

This aspect of her really comes to the forefront in the next part, with the introduction part coming back in full force, a lone trumpet playing what may be a somewhat melancholic motif, a minor melody occasionally moving into major before going back to minor. As could be expected from a character in a position of cosmic importance like hers, it?s possible that sometimes she might wonder what it would be like without the responsibility that weighs down on her even at that moment. Notably, this melancholic, wistful tone is present in the previous part as well, showing to me that Shikieki always, always feels the pressure of her position, feels the necessity to uphold her dignity regardless who she?s around and when.

The third part starts off, almost interrupting the previous train of thought, with a surprisingly warm organ melody that eventually reverts to the first part through a seamless transition. Mostly low-pitch and in a major key, this organ part shows that perhaps Shikieki?s work attitude is not all cold and analytical. Despite the necessity of impartiality, Shikieki is compassionate, and thus might provide some indication to whoever is before her on what to do, how to proceed, not only from her position as a judge, but also from her as a person, as demonstrated by the first-part melody.

This is not the easiest of pieces to analyse, as it, as usual with final and extra themes, is packed with conflicting feelings and strange interludes, which means there is lots to miss or to misinterpret. I feel Shikieki is a person who lives their job, meaning that, for her, she has to uphold a dignity and impartiality of a judge even when off-duty. This leads to her always seeming distant, even when she tries to close that gap. Despite this impartiality, she is compassionate, and takes a personal interest in others, as well as the interest of a judge.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on September 21, 2009, 04:04:59 PM
Oh wow. Your take on Shikieiki is excellent. No matter where in the song I'm in, I always feel like I'm in the presence of something much bigger, much stronger-- and much more compassionate than me. The ORGAN. Oh god.

And backtrackin' a bit, Yuka's interpretation is similarly good. I know you probably won't be doin' much PC-98 music, but to see Flower Land compared to Sleeping Terror or Inanimate Dream would be helpful to see how Yuka's character has developed over the years-- she's mellow now, slow to action, but her older themes, Sleeping Terror in particular, show a time when the sleeping terror... wasn't so sleepy, if you will.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 22, 2009, 07:19:22 AM
to see Flower Land compared to Sleeping Terror or Inanimate Dream would be helpful to see how Yuka's character has developed over the years-- she's mellow now, slow to action, but her older themes, Sleeping Terror in particular, show a time when the sleeping terror... wasn't so sleepy, if you will.

Sleeping Terror, huh? Youtube delivers, as always, so I've had a listen. I'll do the full analysis later, but I'll say it right now - it's quite similar to Faith is for the Transient People in, uh, "instrumentation" (bleh chiptunes) and mood. Although, I could be the only one to think this.

And speaking of Faith is for the Transient People, I'll be shortly moving on to Mountain of Faith! Say what you will about gameplay, the music here is fantastic, and is the last game with music completely in ZUN's classic style before he gets creative in Subterranean Animism.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Pesco on September 22, 2009, 07:43:41 AM
And speaking of Faith is for the Transient People, I'll be shortly moving on to Mountain of Faith! Say what you will about gameplay, the music here is fantastic, and is the last game with music completely in ZUN's classic style before he gets creative in Subterranean Animism.

My Tewi :'(
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Helepolis on September 22, 2009, 09:02:28 AM
YOU FORGOT TEWI. NOW YOU WILL GET BAD LUCK FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE



Fightest, seeing you analyse so deep. Do you play any instruments?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 22, 2009, 09:26:56 AM
My Tewi :'(

Exclamation mark! You're right. This is what happens when I don't play the games the music to which I'm analysing to any degree of completion. Hmm, my track name does not match that of the Touhou wiki's.

Tewi Inaba - Lord Usa's Elemental Flag or White Flag of Usa Shrine.

There's a lot more to Tewi than meets the eye. Her theme demonstrates a confident intensity that comfortably segues into playful interludes. She is canonically portrayed as a trickster rabbit that doesn't follow any rules but her own, and I think that this piece sheds a good amount of light on her approach to life in general.

There are two distinct parts to the piece. The first is mostly an organ-based ostinato with supporting piano interludes, and the second is a set of piano arpeggioes distinctly in contrast with the flowing organ previously.

As I said before, church organs sound uncompromising. The major key and quick tempo of the organ part give that feeling of confident, experienced intensity without any deep-seated issues or ominous undertones. Of note in this part is the rhythm and timing: the piece is in classic time, yet each repeating motif is 3 bars long, not 4, which throws off the listener?s internal expectation of how the motif would proceed ? normally, for a satisfactory conclusion there would have to be one more bar, but the melody ignores that and goes for a repeat when it needs to. The contrast between the long notes of the first two bars and the short notes in the third only empowers the confusion.
The other component of the first part is the piano segments. These are even more elaborate than the organ part, the (quite simple, harmony-wise) melody doing pretty much what it wants, when it wants, breaking pace every other bar whilst still maintaining something familiar by keeping to classic time and harmony. Going back to the melody, it?s all in major, no out-of-the-ordinary key changes, the only quirk being that large volume of ornamentation (pretty much an ornament per actual melodic note).

This all speaks volumes about Tewi. Outwardly she may look quite simple, and there could be evidence that she might be even a little foolish, but there?s an immense amount of self-respect within her developed by decades of experience. Due to this she may appear exceptionally selfish, as her approach to life puts her whims before anything else, but this is caused less by the desire for self-assertion but more by the will to be absolutely unbound by any artificial constraints imposed by strangers. That said, she is entirely of this Earth, and her mannerisms are not alien, just quirky, the difference being that it is far easier to associate with the latter than the former. This, when considering the major key of the piece, makes Tewi ultimately a positive character, even if this is not immediately visible from her behaviour.

In the second part, inevitably, the melody changes key signatures to ?, as if messing around with timing wasn?t enough. Bizarrely, this section maintains a completely straightforward rhythm, following strong beats and bar counts correctly. There is no melody really to speak of, the section relying on sequential arpeggioes to fill up space. To me, this is a demonstration. Tewi is showing exactly why she behaves like she does: this section, following all the rules and expectations, has no individuality. It?s a comfortable, predictable series of chords that doesn?t ask any questions or provide any answers. There?s no character in it, and her character and individuality is what Tewi holds paramount.

Of course, the piece comes back to the first part, this time with a single horn providing a simple, whimsical tune in major on top of the organ. A final demonstration, perhaps, that all this off-structured behaviour of Tewi?s is completely natural to her, that she is perfectly capable of doing anything and still maintaining her own, nobody else?s, tempo.


P.S. Gwah! Red writing! I'm sorry for forgetting you, Tewi!
P.P.S. I play the piano. Though, to be fair, I've been exposed to all sorts of music, mostly of the pre-1900 sort, for a long time, which is what, I feel, gives me the most insight here.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Polaris on September 23, 2009, 01:19:32 AM
There's also Flowering Night, Oriental Dark Flight, and Spring Lane ~ Colorful Path (the rest are remixes as far as I know) for Sakuya, Marisa, and Reimu respectively. I'm interested in Flowering Night the most, though.

There's also Night Falls ~ Evening Star for Yukari (which I'd really like to see analyzed) and Onigashima in the Fairyland ~ Missing Power for Suika (which is a fun song even though it's not one of my favorites) from IaMP.

Now I feel guilty piling a bunch of songs on you :x
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 23, 2009, 07:27:05 AM
There's also Flowering Night, Oriental Dark Flight, and Spring Lane ~ Colorful Path (the rest are remixes as far as I know) for Sakuya, Marisa, and Reimu respectively. I'm interested in Flowering Night the most, though.

There's also Night Falls ~ Evening Star for Yukari (which I'd really like to see analyzed) and Onigashima in the Fairyland ~ Missing Power for Suika (which is a fun song even though it's not one of my favorites) from IaMP.

I'll be doing remix and alternate theme analyses later on after I'm done with the core themes, and, as for Onigashima - ha ha! I am the victor this time, as I refer you to page 1. It's right there, enjoy!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Helepolis on September 23, 2009, 09:09:33 AM
Any movies you have of you playing touhou themes or something Fightest? ( like on yt )
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 23, 2009, 12:50:55 PM
Any movies you have of you playing touhou themes or something Fightest? ( like on yt )

No, although not for lack of trying, mostly because I can never find decent piano arranges of the themes I like, and I don't have an ear for improvisation, so I needs me my sheet music. I did find playable sheet music for Septette recently, though, so if there's demand...

In other news, time to move on properly onto Mountain of Faith! As I mentioned before, I love the music here. It is also the last of "classic" ZUN before he goes all creative in SA and UFO.

Minoriko Aki ? Because the Princess Inada is Scolding Me

Unusual for a first boss theme, there is an immense amount of power emanating from the piece due to instrumentation, and its unrelenting tempo. Additionally, it has a touch of aloofness and, perhaps, cruelty, due to certain sound qualities, which I?ll get into later.

The introduction?s strength comes from loud, separated piano chords, each accented by the strong beats of a time signature with many strong beats ? 2/4 (C with a line down the middle for those who know what I?m talking about). The supporting acoustic guitar is an interesting touch, as the guitar is most commonly heard in Spanish and Latinoamerican dance music. The dance of these cultures (the Cha-Cha-Cha, the Tango etc.) is extremely harsh and precise, yet intimate and sensual. In fact, the introduction has a few unmistakable features from the Tango, giving me a previously unconsidered image of Minoriko ? a graceful, proud and powerful dancer, a harsh mistress that rewards loyalty with a dedicated affection. Castanets are optional, but absolutely appropriate.

That said, the single melodic part of the piece maintains the same rhythm as the introduction, swapping the piano for trumpet, keeping the guitar intact. To me, this is just the continuation of the dance that was started in the introduction. The biggest change is the switch from 2/4 to 4/4 time, allowing for fewer stronger beats to allow for a flowing melody, 8 bars long with a fair share of cadences and key transitions for a comparably short melody. These cadences demonstrate the emotion flowing off Minoriko - she is also of the type to show what she feels, when she feels it, very clearly. This show of emotion, however, is strongly embedded into that furious dance of hers, making it almost a part of her very self, making Minoriko as she is described here something indivisible, something elemental. I believe this is appropriate, considering the animistic nature of Shinto gods.

More than just a goddess of autumn harvest, Minoriko is the goddess of reaping what you sow, of reward for loyalty and punishment for lack thereof, a goddess of clear consequences to deeds done. She is impartial in her judgment, and may seem cold and distant for this, especially so if one incurs her karmic wrath, but she is just as capable of blazing passion should one be in her favour. Truly, there's no middle ground to her.

She should also wear a stunning tango dress, in autumn colours.  ;D
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Polaris on September 23, 2009, 10:25:26 PM
I'll be doing remix and alternate theme analyses later on after I'm done with the core themes, and, as for Onigashima - ha ha! I am the victor this time, as I refer you to page 1. It's right there, enjoy!

Oh, wow, now I feel stupid, especially since I remember reading the analysis... ^^;
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 24, 2009, 11:46:55 AM
Hina Kagiyama ? Dark Side of Fate

Dark Side of Fate?s main motif repeats no less than four times, eight if one includes the usual repeat of the entire piece. Each of these individual repetitions consists of four parts, two of which are repeats of the other two parts. Furthermore, the second two parts of the motif themselves can be divided into four parts, each second one of those repeating major elements from each first one. Repetition, repetition, repetition, with a minor degree of escalation, only to go back to more repetition. Combined with the fast pacing, we get movement, agitation, in a very characteristic manner. I probably don?t need to tell you this, but the piece demonstrates aptly the act of spinning on the spot. This is certainly a physical characteristic of Hina?s, although I would be hesitant to say that it?s a psychological characteristic of hers, as that would imply indecisiveness, lack of ambition and vision, as well as fear of change combined with the self-delusion of normalcy. Bad characteristics in general.

That said, is Hina not an apotropaic god? Perhaps these characteristics are indeed, not hers, but curses, collected by her before they can get to their victims. In that case, this piece is a demonstration of the repertoire of curses that Hina builds up on a daily basis. The instrumentation tells the listener that these are pretty serious curses, at that ? the melody is all over the minor keys with a bit of major thrown in for contrast, half the piece is in organ, the other half in piano, giving us a mix of ominous dread and desperate melancholy. The background has deep horns presenting an ancient, creeping power, as well as quiet, higher-pitched pipes presenting a continuous wail, to increase the tense atmosphere, as if the pressure of all these curses in such a small place is enough to be perceived by human senses. Essentially, Hina is constantly surrounded by a potpourri of negative emotions and intentions, all exceptionally strong and malevolent, all only held in place by Hina's own ability.

Hina is like a bomb disposal expert whilst on duty ? you know she?s on your side, and doing things at her expense to improve your life, but you?ll be damned (ha!) before you?re going to go anywhere near her. Even seeing her means that something?s wrong, and you should be beating feet in the strictly opposite direction. Unfortunately, there?s not much about Hina herself in this piece, and perhaps that?s appropriate ? she?s extremely hard to make out in any kind of detail from underneath all those curses that cover her seemingly from head to toe, like some sort of gothic bee-keeper?s swarm. Perhaps she is content with just doing her assigned duty, and does not care to show of herself any more than would be required by professional courtesy. She would then be a loner, heard of but rarely seen, performing her duty of guarding others whilst remaining hidden - a spiritual vigilante.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 25, 2009, 05:36:14 PM
Sorry for no update today folks. If all goes well I might update as early as tomorrow, otherwise I'll be back on Monday!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Onozuka Nikuyokura on September 25, 2009, 07:29:24 PM
I've started reading through these and I would like to say that I very much enjoy the interpretations of the characters via their themes. The summaries strike me as very educated and very enjoyable!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 28, 2009, 10:44:29 AM
I'm back from the weekend and ready to continue with MoF commentary. Thanks to everyone for the positive feedback!

Nitori Kawashiro - Akutagawa Ryuunouke's Kappa ~ Candid Friend

First of all, listen to the track, then imagine it being played without the drums and guitar, slow it down a smidge and change the trumpet, organ and piano to cello or flute. What you'll end up with is the sweetest, almost childlike in its emotionality, two-and-a-bit minutes of music in MoF. There are parallels to be drawn with Hiroari Shoots a Strange Bird, in that the core melody, simple and adorable, is heard through an "action" filter, and thus certain similarities will exist between Youmu and Nitori - Nitori is expressive and emotional, and this attitude shines through even when she unloads firepower.

What makes the whole track unique to me is the 3-second pre-introduction. Using completely artificial sounds compared to the "real" instrumentation of the piece proper, this little segment is like a little announcement, a characteristic cue, visual or audible, that Nitori is here. Considering the context of the first time that the player sees Nitori, I would think that it's a videogame-ey flicker or sizzle of her optic camo, something that tells the listener that she's around even though she's still mostly invisible. Considering this, it's possible that Nitori has a penchant for dramatic entrances.

Supporting my claim, the melody explodes into organ and rock guitar playing a short introduction with long, powerful, separated chords that end on a dominant chord cadence - dominant chords naturally lead to the tonic chord, thus ending on one is a good way of providing a feeling of suspense, keeping the listener on the edge, waiting for something to happen. This segment is well-described by the word "fanfare", presenting Nitori in all her glory, dramatic pose and everything.

The melody in the piece consists of three parts, all played using either piano, organ or trumpet, usually supported by acoustic or rock guitar, demonstrating that whatever emotion or expression Nitori may be showing, the "action" filter still applies. The first is the most common in the piece, a simple 2x4-bar segment. It is in a major key and in an elegant 3/4 time, instilling a positive, warm feeling - after all, Nitori is generally a friendly and gracious character. Considering the other two melodic parts, this one is somewhat deceptive in its simplicity: the first impression of Nitori shows someone uncomplicated and a bit ridiculous - after all, the combination of that little motif with such powerful instrumentation, adding in that dramatic entrance, might have one think that Nitori has an overinflated sense of self-importance.

Then the melody moves into its second part, basically a transition, but entirely able of standing alone by itself and much more complicated than the first melodic part, containing a melodic line, presented by strong, non-legato chords, that spans a full 8 bars, and suddenly the instrumentation does not seem so ridiculous any more. Nitori shows the presence of a surprising depth of character, demonstrating that her first impression is a dangerous mis-assessment. This segment demonstrates Nitori's self-confidence and self-awareness. She is also most likely aware of the impression she presents initially, and it's possible that she presents this spiel intentionally.

The third part of the melody shows that this spiel she presents may be more for herself than for others. The motif is a shocking 16 bars long, filled with little segues into a minor key from the overall major, presenting an unshakeable feeling of longing, wistfulness, maybe a momentary melancholy, all blasted at the listener by trumpets. I feel that Nitori is hamming it up quite severely - she has developed a persona for herself of some sort of wandering hero, righting wrongs and helping the weak, whilst never getting close to anyone, a loner. However, she does not take this entirely seriously, this probably mostly being a game for her, so she rotates between the oversimplified and overcomplicated aspects of the "hero", probably depending on her mood. Considering the "action" filter, it is possible that this "hero" aspect of hers only really comes into play when there's action to be had. Thus, considering that Nitori is, as I mentioned above, expressive and emotional, I feel this is the reason why the cycling between oversimplified and overcomplicated - this is how Nitori expresses herself in action. Perhaps Nitori's been watching a bit too many action movies?


P.S. I don't think I've been entirely clear on this one, so I'll have to ask you to bear with it. My mind's been all over the place with this piece.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on September 28, 2009, 07:12:49 PM
Damn you're good. It's a good read, though I've skipped three or four. I'm curious about Mysterious Mountain. Maybe your analysis will somehow explain to me why it sounds really, really nostalgic.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 29, 2009, 07:28:16 AM
Damn you're good. It's a good read, though I've skipped three or four. I'm curious about Mysterious Mountain. Maybe your analysis will somehow explain to me why it sounds really, really nostalgic.

Oh, and here I was planning on skipping it, as I've already gone over Aya, thus making it really belong in the "alternate themes" camp. That, however, means making you wait for quite a simple answer - Youkai Mountain ~ Mysterious Mountain sounds nostalgic due to instrumentation, phrase structure and pacing. Specifically, it uses the sound of a pan-flute (the one where there's lots of tubes of different lengths tied together), which is commonly heard in, say, traditional folk songs, it being such a simple instrument to make, which could very well give it a nostalgic vibe if you're at all familiar with folk song.
This feeling would then be strengthened by the first part of the melody, which very much runs like a jig, which itself has Irish and Scottish traditional dance roots, and, again, you might be familiar with Irish or Scottish dance music. A noteworthy fact is that a common instrument to accompany these dances would be the aforementioned pan-flute.
The final aspect, which ties into the dance-likeness, is the common use of repetition of a small bit of a phrase once the phrase itself is finished, which consolidates the phrase, immediately making it something familiar, so when it crops up again there's a strong feeling of recognition, and anything familiar that one remembers can evoke nostalgia.

I hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on September 29, 2009, 12:02:13 PM
Ah, it does makes sense! I love Irish music, and I'm familiar with folk songs (heard a lot when I was a child), not to mention, the k-waves Touhou arrangements are my favorites. Thanks!
And, by the way, I think Mysterious Mountain is not a theme of Aya. More like a theme of all tengu, and their mountain.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 29, 2009, 01:12:29 PM
As much as I try to fulfill requests, I'll go with my original plan and skip Youkai Mountain ~ Mysterious Mountain (do expect to see it when I go on to alternate themes) and go on straight to...

Sanae Kochiya - Faith is for the Transient People

I like Sanae, and I understand she's quite a popular character in general. I've realised, however, how little of her character I really know, despite her appearing quite frequently since her debut. All I know is that she very heavily influenced by her two patron goddesses, and her attitude at any given moment might not even truly be her own, instead being a projection of the feelings of either Kanako or Suwako (considering the events in UFO). It is because of this that I am very hesitant to attribute any personality traits gleaned from Faith directly to her - she is, after all, protecting the shrine in the name of Kanako, who has a very... aggressive attitude to things that stand in her way, which there are a lot of, considering her love of revolutionary progress (see SA). Regardless, let's see what the piece has to offer.

Oh. That's actually quite easy. We have piano and flute for the melody, supported by high-pitched plucked string (hesitant to call it acoustic guitar), and the accompaniment is all low-pitched rock guitar with an extremely prominent drum beat. The melody and accompaniment are pretty much two characters - melody for core Sanae, accompaniment for Kanako's psychological influence and divine investment. Have a listen to Faith, keeping these two separate characters in mind, listening to how one weaves into the other. Right now. Here's a link and everything:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGyE-b-KaMs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGyE-b-KaMs)

I'll start with the accompaniment, since it has a few quirks when it comes to the melody. The instrumentation is really what makes it tick - the low-pitched rock guitar creates a rumble, an ominous hum of a transformer station, the low roar of a powerful engine - basically there's an immense amount of power on standby for Sanae to tap at her convenience, a power that follows her around at every step. This is Sanae's divine investment that she receives from her patron goddesses, and considering how this power menaces, I think that there's little argument to whose aspect is present now.

The melody, representing Sanae, is highly intense. Being practically all in minor key with a major chord or two only to emphasise the minor that comes after it, and played in a blistering tempo with almost no rests combine to create a grim determination, a drive to get something done no matter the cost. There is a personal power there, independent from the accompaniment, shown by the full chords in the melody on the natural strong beats in a bar (every fourth beat, the piece is in the usual 4/4 time). Considering this, I had another listen to the first part of the melody, the one you hear as soon as the piano comes in. Here, the strong-beat chords are the same as those heard during the rock guitar introduction, with little, almost superfluous motifs joining each chord. This, I think, is a clear demonstration of how much influence Kanako has over Sanae - Sanae will follow along to the goddess' attitude, her preferences, even when Kanako is not around. On the other hand, it has been shown in UFO that they have some sort of long-distance telepathy deal going, so perhaps it's the other way around - Sanae will follow the instructions of her patron, but inevitably add little frills, quirks that were never intended originally. Either way, Kanako has a good deal of control over Sanae's actions, which Sanae does not resist.

The second melodic part is a transition to the third, and is interesting for being strongly both similar and dissimilar to the first - the melody's rhythm is practically identical, but the strong chords and the tonalities that go with them are gone, and the melody sometimes even misses a strong chord where there should have been one. Supporting my suspicions, the accompaniment here sounds confused, unsure of this new direction the melody's gone, not sure whether it should deploy its usual power or not, and so holds back. It follows the melody as harmonic support, the two in a bit of an awkward equilibrium. This shows to me a rather funny set-up - Sanae's propensity to adding unwanted features to her task at hand might have gotten out of hand as the girl goes on a bit of a tangent. Kanako, bewildered, follows along, hoping that Sanae gets back on track, knowing that, ultimately, she can only tell Sanae what to do and give her power, never control her directly.

The two reconcile in the third part of the melody, which has developed into its own musical line, without imitating anything that came previously, with the accompaniment happily supporting at full strength, even following some of the melodic passages with its own deep voice. The melody here is expressive, open, excited in its broken rhythm, and full of ornamentation. This is most likely Sanae's own, proper personality, outside of influence (there's a passage towards the end of the track that has this melody without any rock guitar whatsoever, which I feel supports this). That power from the beginning is still there, the strong chords are still emphasised, showing Sanae as a self-confident girl with a dose of playfulness and rebelliousness. What I feel going on here is that Kanako understands well the necessity of supporting Sanae's personal growth, and, like a well-meaning parent, go along with whatever the girl's doing, even though it might be completely unexpected. Eventually, when enough is considered enough, she will attempt to subtly steer the girl back on track with a suggestive word or two, hoping Sanae will get the hint.

Faith is for the Transient People shows the bond between Sanae and Kanako, between a girl still in the process of growing up and finding herself and a goddess who's taken on a somewhat mother-like role in that girl's life. Despite the difference in nature between the two, they are incredibly close, showing a great deal of intimate trust in the other's judgment. That said, I'm not the first to come across this evaluation, as I've read a good deal of doujins which show exactly this, and I feel that's a satisfying result.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on September 29, 2009, 06:52:40 PM
It's really strange how people get a character's personality good, even though their personality is reflected in the music instead of their actions. I wonder, is this the power of the music over our subconscious?
I love Sanae, and I'm really glad that her music reflects the same Sanae that I know and love.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 30, 2009, 01:43:26 PM
We're on to the penultimate entry for MoF!

Kanako Yasaka - The Venerable Ancient Battlefield ~ Suwa Foughten Field

Despite the deep, menacing growl of the power heard in Sanae?s theme, Suwa Foughtern Field is very measured, very careful in its show of power, instead preferring to present its majesty to quell any opposition. Immediately after writing this, a thought occurred to me and I had a listen to Gensokyo Millennium, which, as it turns out, is surprisingly similar in instrumentation, structure and general mood. It is appropriate to say, then, that Eirin and Kanako will share certain features, and, indeed, I can think of a few off the top of my head, but I?ll leave that as an exercise for the reader.
As a note, I noticed some comments over on the ZUN interview thread that claim that certain other tracks on MoF are based partially off Suwa Foughten Field ? this is misleading, as the only similarity (and I apologise if the similarities actually run deeper and I haven?t noticed) are the segments where broken octaves go up and down to the key notes of a chord - thus it is more accurate to say that they share motifs or passages. Yeah, this is nitpicking to an unnecessary degree, but this are musical thread, and thus are serious business. :V

It is quite interesting to see just how little effort Kanako has to expend to appear majestic and awe-inspiring. There are exactly two motifs that carry a proper melody, both only presented after careful, almost gentle preparation by sequences of arpeggioes or broken octaves, but despite this there is never a moment where the feeling of majesty goes away. This tells me that this is what Kanako is like naturally, which should come as little surprise ? as a major god, it is her very nature to be larger-than-life, to be above little, petty things that concern mere mortals. She does not shine with awesome divine power for any kind of discernible reason, it?s just what she does.
It bears explaining then, what methods are used to present that majestic feeling.

The pre-introduction uses a very specific electronic sound that is the closest to vocals that it can get. Playing large arpeggioes, the sequence of which quickly scales large lengths of the keyboard, using that sound that then doubles up on the repeat, all in minor, all at a blazing pace, this little bit presents a tremendous buildup of power, all in the space of a few seconds. Due to the echoing, open nature of the vocal sound, the feel of that power, instead of privately-focused, like we would get on a piano, becomes cosmic, as if the presence of the power resonates with the world itself. This immediately presents Kanako, or her power, at least, as something far greater than the immediate surroundings, with a presence beyond the visible.

This is reinforced by the broken octaves in the introduction. The octaves follow the key notes of a chord, each note being repeated one octave above before continuing to the next, creating the sound of a myriad echoes, giving the impression that everything that the deity does has immense repercussions, no matter how small it appears to the deity themselves. I haven?t pointed this out before, and I?ve only just realized that some of you readers might not know this, but an octave is the interval between one note and its next identical harmonic equivalent, 12 semitones up or down if using a keyboard instrument. It is a strong interval indeed because it is essentially playing the same note twice simultaneously, and being able to distinguish both notes, instead of just one note, but louder. Making one note into an octave emphasizes that note, gives it an echo, making it feel powerful. Suwa Foughten Field?s non-melodic sections love their octaves.
Just in case the listener didn?t get the idea, the broken octaves are followed by unbroken ones, in a measured tempo, slowly putting together a diminished chord. As usual, diminished chords tend to put the listener on the edge, making him wary of where all this potency is going. All in all, the introduction serves to show the listener the divine might of a god, their very nature making the listener feel uncomfortable, unsure of their position before the god. All this while, Kanako hasn?t even shown her personality. She was just there.

The first melodic part follows a measured tempo, never breaking into fast-paced passages, putting together a well-controlled 2x8-bar melody. Time signature is ?, presenting an elegant dancing pace to the listener, showing Kanako as one certainly not lacking grace, in thoughts or bearing. Of course, the instrumentation, this time doubled-up trumpets, show prominent, absolute self-confidence, as well as the ability to show oneself without shame or doubt. This shows, perhaps, Kanako?s natural noblesse oblige, as it were, her natural ability to show herself as befitting nobility to set an example to her lessers.

All of this seemed to be just an off-hand comment by her, a little indulgence to directly deal with the listener, as Kanako backs away, her divine presence once again taking over while she stands off, aloof once again. This time, we are also presented with a gentle intermezzo in major, composed of simple chords being slowly put together, note by note, the vocals? open sound presenting a warm feeling, as if the positive sound of the major chords is coming from everywhere at once. Still above the petty concerns of mortals, Kanako is still capable of sympathy on some degree, her blessing feeling like warm sunshine gently caressing the multitudes below.

The second melodic part is much like the first, once again careful and measured, with long trumpet notes showing no need to rush. In 4/4 time, this is a more human part of Kanako, a few chord progressions moving from major to minor show a gentle wistfulness, never so harsh as to be bitter, but maybe melancholic, to show that even Kanako has wants and desires that are not fulfilled. The ornamentation present, a few turns here or there, show that she might even wish for some little whimsical fun, and might allow herself to have some if not for the requirements of her position. This is the part that really evokes sympathy with her, and I feel it does so very well.

I?ll round off here, as this seems to be my longest article yet, with a summary. Kanako is, by her very nature, charismatic and awe-inspiring. Behaviour appropriate to a position of great power is part of her character. However, despite the aloofness and impartiality that this might force on her, she can be sympathetic to her lessers. Finally, she carries all-too-human desires that her great power cannot fulfill, and might wish for an opportunity to let her hair down, as it were, to be able to ignore her status and position for even a brief time.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Ondine on September 30, 2009, 03:35:12 PM
I just wanted to pop in and say that I've been following this thread for a while and I really enjoy your style of analysis. Luna Dial is spot-on. <3

I'm a big fan of Medicine Melancholy because she seems so broken -- there aren't a lot of Touhou characters quite like her, in that she's so dark and a little creepy... So she stands out to me. [And I seem to have a thing for animate dolls in fiction anyhow. It's weird.]

Looking forward to your take on Native Faith and Flowering Night! :D



[By the way, since you mentioned it, I'd like to hear your rendition of the Septette on piano if you get around to it. :0 ]
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 30, 2009, 06:29:11 PM
Well, Native Faith is due next, of course, but you're going to have to wait a bit for Flowering Night. As for piano Septette... I'm kinda torn, since I'm practicing Nuclear Fusion... but hey, I can do both.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Lloyd Dunamis on September 30, 2009, 07:52:20 PM
Nooo~, why didn't I click on this link earlier Dx... Anyway,

I've read only a few of the analyses, and I'm already astounded! This "something about music, instrumentation and composition" that you know is really something! >w<

I wonder if ZUN ever thought of these things for the game's music... Well, he did mention  in Kaguya's theme comment (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Imperishable_Night:_Music): "I don't express emotions through songs, I make songs with emotions."
I'm a little discontent on some of his short BGM comments though... maybe I'm just expecting too much...

MoF's themes are my most favorites. Considering that MoF is like a (faith) comeback of Touhou (or something that sounds like that), MoF's themes in general delivers this calming sensation, as if it's inviting me up to only Kanako knows, IMO.


Oh, may I have a small favor? You'd probably not think of listening to it and write up an analysis of it because it's not anyone's theme, though... maybe after finishing the last MoF theme...
[wish to add more, but I'm getting sleepy... head getting heavy D| ]
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on September 30, 2009, 10:01:59 PM
I've read only a few of the analyses, and I'm already astounded! This "something about music, instrumentation and composition" that you know is really something! >w<

I wonder if ZUN ever thought of these things for the game's music... Well, he did mention  in Kaguya's theme comment (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Imperishable_Night:_Music): "I don't express emotions through songs, I make songs with emotions."
I'm a little discontent on some of his short BGM comments though... maybe I'm just expecting too much...

MoF's themes are my most favorites. Considering that MoF is like a (faith) comeback of Touhou (or something that sounds like that), MoF's themes in general delivers this calming sensation, as if it's inviting me up to only Kanako knows, IMO.


Oh, may I have a small favor? You'd probably not think of listening to it and write up an analysis of it because it's not anyone's theme, though... maybe after finishing the last MoF theme...
[wish to add more, but I'm getting sleepy... head getting heavy D| ]

Thanks for the positive comments! Heck, any comments are welcome, since they prove to me I'm not talking to myself, and that'd be crazy.  :V

As for ZUN's comments on his tracks, well, let's not forget that ZUN is always drunk, all the time, so everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. Anyway, I feel that writing pieces through one's emotions, as opposed to expressing emotions through them...eh, it comes down to the same thing, that the pieces have feeling in them, and I can grab onto stuff like that and interpret the hell out of it.

Mountain of Faith remains my favourite overall soundtrack across all the games as well (although SWR comes extremely close with its gorgeous variations on the core theme), but Subterranean Animism comes out ultimately on top due to a certain gem the size of a star blazing with nuclear fire.

As for the favor... well, go on, what is it? Don't leave me hanging like that. I'm always ready to listen to something Touhou-related.  :)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on October 01, 2009, 10:21:16 AM
Ok, well three pages later I think I have a few comments about U.N. Owen Was Her. It is one of my favorites and I just got around to thinking about it.

I'm one of the people that would like to think of Flandre as not so much crazy, but more naive than anything. Think about it, she's been locked up in a basement for basically her entire life. The only interaction she has with people is with the SDM crew.

Imagine it like a small toddler that just hasn't exactly been taught well. Nobody would go so far as to call them crazy or out of their minds, they're just kids that don't know much better.

I think U.N. Owen does a pretty good job of showing us that side of Flandre. The song has a playful (and dark, I'll give you that) attitude throughout, and reading through the dialogue Flandre mostly attacks the heroine wanting to play. What kid wouldn't want to play when they've been locked inside?

Quote from: EoSD Extra
Flandre: I have a play toy over here...
Reimu: What do you want to play?
Flandre: Danmaku.
Reimu: Oh, making patterns. I'm pretty good at that.

...

Flandre: Oh, and I was thinking of visiting you with cake and tea, in thanks.
Reimu: Try not to bring your kind of food to a human's place.
Flandre: It's not too sweet, is it?

Flandre is definitely more sane than people would want to think. U.N. Owen shows the playfulness of her, as she is a little child, but it also shows the darkness that she's learned from her sister. Flandre is a vampire after all, so she thinks nothing of the food or drink that she's given. I think U.N. Owen shows a more naive, playful darkness of Flandre than some sort of craziness.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 01, 2009, 10:56:56 AM
I think U.N. Owen does a pretty good job of showing us that side of Flandre. The song has a playful (and dark, I'll give you that) attitude throughout, and reading through the dialogue Flandre mostly attacks the heroine wanting to play. What kid wouldn't want to play when they've been locked inside?

Flandre is definitely more sane than people would want to think. U.N. Owen shows the playfulness of her, as she is a little child, but it also shows the darkness that she's learned from her sister. Flandre is a vampire after all, so she thinks nothing of the food or drink that she's given. I think U.N. Owen shows a more naive, playful darkness of Flandre than some sort of craziness.

That's a fair point. You mention that she is like a child and thus her attitude is "doesn't know better" - I also totally agree with that. Unfortunately, the tone of the piece depicts harshness and cruelty, thus hinting that Flandre may be one of those kids that pull the wings off insects and tortures small animals, hurts anything weaker than her - because she doesn't know better. She is immensely powerful, so that "anything weaker than her" suddenly begins to include an awful lot of things, including people. I would mention that 500 years of this attitude would make for one hardened serial killer, but Gensokyo+ means she just needs to be taught a few object lessons in compassion and consideration and she should be fine.

Basically, if Flandre was just an amoral little girl who was neglected when growing up, I would be fine at calling her childish. However, she's an amoral little girl who was neglected when growing up with superpowers, and that makes her dangerous, which is why she can so easily be called crazy, when she's actually just misunderstood.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Helepolis on October 01, 2009, 12:11:23 PM
I am somehow questioned by your analysis on Kanako. It is hard to explain but I do not sense any sympathy in her music as you described in your post. She is suposingly a selfish bitch who conquerored the Moriya shrine by brute force. Her entire theme to me sounds like one big: "I am the mightiest godess of the mountain as I command the wind and rain" and "All of Gensokyo's faith belong to me."

Sympathy for the lessers is the last thing I expect from her. ( just a personal opinion )

Also on the entire MoF songs: Didn't ZUN more like based all themes ( including stages ) on japanese folkore music?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 01, 2009, 12:24:06 PM
Final entry for MoF. I'll be quite prompt in moving onto SA, so if I've missed something (that isn't Youkai Mountain) tell me now!

[edit] I may have overemphasized the sympathy in Suwa Foughten Field, but it's definitely there, check out 1:26 to about 1:50. Major key, soft vocals, slow pace - all suggest to me a benevolence. Not the benevolence on a personal scale, but of an emperor to his people. She cares about her people as a whole, even if she might not care the tiniest bit about a single guy. As for the other points - hell yes. No arguments there, she's got high-and-mighty down pat.

Suwako Moriya - Native Faith

Much like with Septette and Cruel Sisters, I have trouble listening to this one without Silver Forest's Kero Destiny sort of superimposing itself onto the track. This isn't a bad thing, honestly, as Destiny strikes me as a fun romp, no strings attached, everyone laughing happily and generally having a good time. The fact that the piece is mostly all in major, using mostly warm sounds, with no menace in the lower registers, supports this. Instrumentation-wise, the piece is surprisingly minimalistic, with the melody exclusively in piano's hands with a pipe organ thrown in extremely briefly to play an ornament - all this showing a Suwako that isn't overly deep, with few bells and whistles. The Suwako you see is the Suwako you get.

And what do we actually see? The melody is a pretty simple 8-bar affair, harmonically-speaking, with very straightforward chord progressions that support the melodic line to satisfactory conclusions when they are supposed to, by Classical standards. What makes the melody stand out is its love affair with syncopation and triplets, breaking rhythm all over the place. However, this is so consistent that it doesn't confuse the listener. Instead, the listener is enchanted by the well-meaning simplicity of the harmony and the major key into nodding along in time to the drumbeat with a silly grin on their face. (Yes. The listener. Totally not me.) This translates well to Suwako - her straightforward, well-meaning attitude is enthralling. She's the kind of person you simply can't consider being mean to, as that would be akin to kicking a puppy. She could most certainly be somewhat hyperactive, possibly eccentrically so, or simply extremely unpredictable in her pace, but one simply goes along with it due to the energy, hmm... genki is an excellent word here, that flows off her.

The second melody is a little harder to qualify, as it ties in closely to the chord cascades that we hear across the piece. These to me sound like something of nature, more than of an individual - pouring rain, a running stream, insect swarms, things like that. Heck, if you've ever heard a frog choir, these cascades sound remarkably like one as well. All of these suggest, much like Kanako and her echoes, how closely tied to nature Suwako really is (once again, no surprise, she's a Shinto-esque goddess). The second melody starts off with clearly discernible chords, somewhat slow compared to the usual pace of the piece, that, after a couple of ornaments and studies, completely dissolve into these flowing chord cascades. It is as if Suwako slows down to have a go at something outside of her element only to quickly realise it's not her cup of tea and whisks herself off to go what she does best, for which the best word would be frolicking. I suppose this is natural for a goddess - after all, they are not supposed to do things beyond their jurisdiction. That shows something about Suwako then, who quite often goes out to do these things, even though it always ends up with her quickly letting whatever she was doing go - she is a person who indulges her curiosity, but only for as long as it's comfortable for her, perhaps somewhat whimsical, a little bit selfish.

Considering the attitude of the piece and its features, I think it's appropriate that Suwako is depicted commonly as an adorable little girl despite her being millenia old, as the piece then fits her perfectly, both in manner and in bearing.

[edit] As for Japanese folklore music... No idea. I might be able to make a comparison if I heard some, but I'm not familiar with any as is.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Lloyd Dunamis on October 01, 2009, 12:57:04 PM
Thanks for the positive comments! Heck, any comments are welcome, since they prove to me I'm not talking to myself, and that'd be crazy.  :V
 
 As for ZUN's comments on his tracks, well, let's not forget that ZUN is always drunk, all the time, so everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. Anyway, I feel that writing pieces through one's emotions, as opposed to expressing emotions through them...eh, it comes down to the same thing, that the pieces have feeling in them, and I can grab onto stuff like that and interpret the hell out of it.
 
 Mountain of Faith remains my favourite overall soundtrack across all the games as well (although SWR comes extremely close with its gorgeous variations on the core theme), but Subterranean Animism comes out ultimately on top due to a certain gem the size of a star blazing with nuclear fire.
 
 As for the favor... well, go on, what is it? Don't leave me hanging like that. I'm always ready to listen to something Touhou-related.  :)
 
Thanks. Though sometimes when I read, I tend to not reply because of diffidence in my replies. (just writing one post/comment takes me more or less an hour, not to mention the three new posts before I could even post mine) >x<

Eeeh, ZUN and his drunkness... Sometimes, I just want to think that ZUN is thinking straight, and mean what he says (at least in comments). Ah well, that's his life, I guess.
So eitherway, one composes music with this feeling... Hnnn, nice point.

>.< Ack, I shouldn't have removed the "as well" in my "MoF's themes are my most favorites."

Oh, okay, sorry for that. I am referring to the Player's Score theme. Although it is an MoF theme based on Kanako-sama's, SA and UFO resounds the same Player's Score BGM. ZUN must have liked the effect of the music.
Quote from: TouhouWiki: MoF - Music comment
It's too lonely when the Game Over screen is silent, so I put this in.
 Oh, how mysterious, it's even more lonely, now.
 
 But why?
Though short, it gives me goosebumps when I hear it.
Depending on the player's situation, this piece gives:
-A feeling of accomplishment, <some deep meanings here I'm unable to interpret>, for those who have finished the game defeated the boss (of Story mode or Extra); and
-A feeling of failure... a thought of "protagonist was unsuccessful of youkai extermination, youkai dominates" of some sort.
... I couldn't put my thoughts to words appropriately, and what I've written is somewhat obvious IMO >x<, but that pretty much sums up my opinion in a way.

 ... Now that I mentioned it, yes, I seem more attached to stage themes for some reason o_o
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 01, 2009, 01:09:51 PM
Inspired to do a bit of my own analysis here, although there are better things I should be focusing my brainpower on  :-X

Going back to Necro-fantasy and Necrofantasia for a bit, the similar sections speak of Yukari and Ran's bond as mistress and shikigami. While in real life Necrofantasia is close to 'Necro-fantasy with added stuff', in the context of canon the similar sections could represent the portion of Yukari's power that Ran has been given as a shikigami as well as the traits she picked up from the border Youkai during her centuries of service.

Still, as a nine-tails she has considerable power of her own and it shows in the 'copied' sections being louder and brasher in Necro-fantasy than they are in Necrofantasia. Those sections also seem to be less busy and more straightforward than than in Necrofantasia so perhaps Ran mildly disapproves of Yukari's attitude with regards to the latter's position and powers, and she is determined not to be as frivolous as her mistress when acting as the Yakumo representative.

Just my two cents, probably not even worth that.   
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Prody on October 01, 2009, 01:22:21 PM
UN Owen, Native Faith, and Flowering night are mainly the three songs that hijack remixes on Niconico Douga. These songs must stand out a lot to a general viewer/listener.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 01, 2009, 02:59:26 PM
Going back to Necro-fantasy and Necrofantasia for a bit, the similar sections speak of Yukari and Ran's bond as mistress and shikigami. While in real life Necrofantasia is close to 'Necro-fantasy with added stuff', in the context of canon the similar sections could represent the portion of Yukari's power that Ran has been given as a shikigami as well as the traits she picked up from the border Youkai during her centuries of service.

Still, as a nine-tails she has considerable power of her own and it shows in the 'copied' sections being louder and brasher in Necro-fantasy than they are in Necrofantasia. Those sections also seem to be less busy and more straightforward than than in Necrofantasia so perhaps Ran mildly disapproves of Yukari's attitude with regards to the latter's position and powers, and she is determined not to be as frivolous as her mistress when acting as the Yakumo representative.

While I would say that the 'copied' sections in Illusionary Funeral only seem louder and brasher because the rest of the piece is far more demure than Necrofantasia, otherwise I agree with your points. I also remember that I omitted mentioning the characteristics that come from two characters sharing a theme, so it's good that you noted it.

As for focusing brainpower... You could do far worse than musical analysis.  ;)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 02, 2009, 06:27:57 AM
Gah, you guys, here I was about to go on to SA, and just now realised I almost missed SWR! You should warn me about these things!  :V

So yeah, two new characters were introduced in SWR as far as I remember, I'll get onto them soon.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 02, 2009, 07:17:25 AM
A funny thing struck me when I read through your evaluation of Maiden's Capriccio. For all the grim undertones the original has, almost all the remixes are cutesy candy-clouds-and-flowers kind of tunes (case in point: Waki Miko Reimu and its ripoff spinoff Neko Miko Reimu), while Mystic Oriental Love Consultation and other earlier themes are the ones that get violent/dark remixes. Why do you think that happens?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 02, 2009, 08:03:31 AM
A funny thing struck me when I read through your evaluation of Maiden's Capriccio. For all the grim undertones the original has, almost all the remixes are cutesy candy-clouds-and-flowers kind of tunes (case in point: Waki Miko Reimu and its ripoff spinoff Neko Miko Reimu), while Mystic Oriental Love Consultation and other earlier themes are the ones that get violent/dark remixes. Why do you think that happens?

I don't think that's necessarily true, a quick search on Youtube presents plenty of aggressive remixes of Dream Battle. You do have a point about the cutesiness though - Love Consultation doesn't seem to have its equivalent. I would say that is simply because Consultation came out at a time when attaching cute songs to Touhou themes wasn't in vogue, whereas Capriccio did. Musically speaking, there's nothing prohibiting either piece from being cutesy or violent.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 02, 2009, 11:16:05 AM
You're probably right about the timing. Capriccio is indeed one of Reimu's newest original themes. The ones she got after that were remixes of pre-IN themes.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 02, 2009, 12:47:54 PM
So then, Scarlet Weather Rhapsody. Instead of every theme and track being unique, it instead goes for mood-appropriate variations and remixes on a core theme. Of course, the character themes are also still there for the actual fights, but the rest of the music is based on Scarlet Weather Rhapsody (the track). For me, this is a good thing, as the core track is gorgeous, and I don?t mind hearing it over and over again, especially if it changes moods all the time.

And so, speaking of character themes?

Iku Nagae ? Crimson in the Black Sea ~ Legendary Fish

Legendary Fish consists of two parts that are impossible to miss ? slow, deliberate piano chords is one part, uplifting trumpet is the other. Considering the contrast between the two and the way the second part is composed, I would judge that these parts present separately Iku as herself and Iku as a herald of catastrophe.

To justify this, I?ll have to start with the second part. After the menacingly deep, harsh, unforgiving and uncompassionate first part, suddenly a crystal-clear trumpet sings out a lengthy melody, carrying its entire passage pretty much by itself. The motif is very distinct due to its repeated usage of the fanfare announcement interval ? the fourth going upwards. Considering the instrument and the pitch at which it?s used, the entire passage becomes one long declaration, a long call to attention, a rousing speech or a dire warning. Considering Iku?s exact job is to present the latter, I feel confident in saying that the trumpet sections are Iku?s announcements of disaster. This in mind, she is quite impartial to the actual disasters ? the announcements lack regret or sorrow, as they are mostly in a major key, do not show a personal opinion ? the melody is non-legato, so no smooth and sympathetic presentation, but neither do they make light of the deal ? the notes are long, with little ornamentation in the passages, and the tempo is comparatively mild. In other words, Iku is absolutely professional about her job ? it is her duty to inform everyone of upcoming disasters, not to offer sympathy or advice. She is an excellent announcer who knows how to get everyone?s attention without injecting emotion into her work. She is not completely callous however, and understands the impact of what?s coming in her wake ? she takes the time to emphasize and repeat her declarations by the change of key in the melody?s repeat section until she is sure that everyone present is aware of what?s coming.

The first part is then Iku herself. Characterized by the melody?s slow pace, a minor key and a piano chord on every bar?s strong beat, supported by rock guitar, this part is grim, serious. The emphasis on strong beats is severe, the first few seconds even adding a clacking sound on those beats as well to make them stand out even more. To me this shows a great focus on precision, in thought and action, in Iku. Considering the second part, the impartiality it presents, suggests to me that Iku more or less lives her job, her personal attitude being almost no different than her professional behaviour. Perhaps even beyond that ? she is naturally harsh, curt, maybe a bit menacing ? the first part is mostly in a low pitch ? but has to rein these qualities in somewhat when doing her duty, after all, being impatient and menacing to terrified people would only bring about a panic.

Sometimes Iku is portrayed as a minder of sorts to Tenshi, and this seems to be highly appropriate. Iku?s attitude is very no-nonsense, by-the-book and practical, and thus would be an appropriate countermeasure to Tenshi?s mischievous shenanigans. 
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 05, 2009, 11:57:47 AM
Back from the weekend to present...

Tenshi Hinanai - Calamity in Heaven ~ Wonderful Heaven

The entire piece strikes me as one long train of thought, always going forward, occasionally dwelling on one matter or another, but never returning to a thought already settled, as evidenced by the piece's structure of four parts before the loop, each part different from all the others, yet each part always naturally flowing into the next, whether by rhythm or instrumentation. Of course, each part comes from Tenshi herself, so they all tell something about her individually. As a whole, however, this structure shows Tenshi as someone prone to long stretches of introspection and consideration, although explicitly with no hindsight. This seems reasonable, considering that Tenshi, canonically, is bored of her Celestial way of living, and boredom usually leads to long bouts of thinking. Unfortunately, the resulting thought processes may take the most bizarre of directions, resulting in fantasies and daydreams. Although the later sections will demonstrate it better, I will say right now that Tenshi is a dreamer, a romantic. She is kind of person to escape into a fictional world if her current one is unsatisfactory. As we've seen with Haruhi Suzumiya, this sort of thing leads to trouble if that person is imbued with any kind of supernatural power - they will enforce their surroundings conform to their fantasy, despite the wishes of those who do not want this to happen. This is pretty much as described by Tenshi herself in the events of SWR - having heard of the adventures of the incident resolvers down below, too impatient to wait for another incident to crop up, she sets herself up as the bad guy, and is overjoyed when people play along with her game - hence her being so enthusiastic about "being punished", as opposed to out of some masochistic tendencies (which I dislike somewhat as a fanon thing, unless it's Word-of-God-approved).

So what does Tenshi actually dream about? As usual, I'll break the piece down by parts to analyse.

The first part, those first 15 or so seconds, make for a tense introduction with their diminished chords and metallic sounds. There's really no better way to describe that sound than with "steely", considering it's played on a metal xylophone (also called metallophone). It's a harsh and strong sound, completely lacking any warmth despite its resonance. This very resonance, combined with the "vocals" in the background, gives a sense of great magnitude. This section presents someone completely detached from their surroundings. They have been hardened, jaded, and stand above anything their environment can present to them. After all, familiarity breeds contempt, and the Tenshi presented here has nothing but contempt for her home, a home that has lost its ability to evoke her sense of wonder. As a dreamer, Tenshi would feel confined and held back by such a place, and would lash out against it, her sense of hatred unjustified but strong.

This thought is quite quickly cut off, naturally, judging by how elegantly it flows into the next part. Part two is made up of a set of two practically identical 4-bar segments repeated many times. Instrumentation is quite dense, with piano, guitar and horn making up the melody and its accompaniment, and the sound is muted, none of the notes carry, despite their instruments' normally doing so. Most of the notes are non-legato, so, although there's an overarching melodic line, this entire section seems confused, fragmented, unsure of where it is and where it's going. The key change halfway through does little to alleviate the fragmentation. This shows to me how poor a situation Tenshi is in, from her point of view. It's a very confined segment, with no room for thought to lift off. Despite the normal power of the instruments present, they are not allowed to show it all, instead being cramped together forcefully. It is no wonder that Tenshi is driven to rebellion against her household.

Part three then shows what it is that Tenshi wishes for. The claustrophobic confinement is gone, all there is are the metallophone and the "vocals", their sounds echoing and resonating like nothing before, this time alternating between a hopeful major and a bitter minor, before exploding into an all-major trumpet fanfare. I mentioned before that Tenshi is a dreamer and a romantic - she revels in emotion, in drama. It doesn't matter to her whether it's grief or joy that she's feeling, she just wishes to experience these intense feelings first-hand, and at full strength - that is what ultimately makes her happy. Hell, consider the name of her Final Spell track: "Childish Ecstasy" - she is ecstatic because she gets to play, to have fun for its own sake, to experience simple, childish joy.

Finally, the fourth part elegantly flows from the third by sharing the trumpet's long, expressive notes. No longer feeling the confinement, this part is one long joyous outburst, loud and clear. There is no pause, only escalation by means of the accompaniment building up in density. This part is here to show others what Tenshi is really like when free from the limitations she experiences, always energetic, always looking forwards, never stopping. It would be unfair to generalize Tenshi as an emotion junkie, as the reason for her distress seems genuine. It's hard to say, however, whether it is indeed the fault of the household for forcing unfair limitations on her, or whether she feels confined by a generally well-meaning home, but this is a secondary matter in this case. I would lean to the former, considering how easy it seems to make Tenshi feel happy.

I feel this does Tenshi justice. The above presents Tenshi's shenanigans in SWR as something like a teenage rebellion, a call for attention, or the kind of outburst a teenager can have when finally away from whoever's in charge of them. I'll claim once again that Tenshi isn't a masochist (unless Word of God etc.), but instead revels in anything that makes her feel extreme emotion (which bodily harm upon her can, indeed, achieve). Of course, if anyone has something to say, do so - I'm willing to discuss, and Tenshi is one of my more favored characters.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Prody on October 05, 2009, 01:05:28 PM
For Tenshi's theme, I feel that the xylophones are a unique touch to a touhou song. I love instruments that produce these sounds!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 05, 2009, 01:52:43 PM
Hmm interesting. Like most people, I always thought Tenshi as a selfish bastard, she was one of those I liked the least. But, after reading this, now I know why is that: She's just like a normal teen. She's in her rebellious stage, and she thinks she can do anything; or she can be like the adults 'who can do anything without worry'. Thus, she reflects my old self: Thinking she can do anything and not respecting anything or anyone. No wonder why I don't like her.
Also, I've made a surprising connection with another girl: Sanae. Considering her behaviour in the new games, she's in the same stage; well not really, she's more mature, so she's already leaving this stage, but she's still there. The only difference is that Tenshi is an extrovert while the newer games imply that Sanae was an introvert, or a loner. So what we see is the rebellious stage of these two different personality: Tenshi goes "Come on, I'm bored, fight me!" while leaving her "paradise" (the heavens, aka home), what she finds boring and limits her, and goes boldly facing the reality. And Sanae goes: "In this world, I can beat anybody!", just like how we nerds play different kind of games and MMOs; because Gensokyo is the ideal world for Sanae, what she always dreamed about, this is like her "WoW". Of course, she still stick to her "parents" just like how introverts, or we nerds mostly stick to ours.
Or at least this is how I see them.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 05, 2009, 02:49:00 PM
Hmm interesting. Like most people, I always thought Tenshi as a selfish bastard, she was one of those I liked the least. But, after reading this, now I know why is that: She's just like a normal teen. She's in her rebellious stage, and she thinks she can do anything; or she can be like the adults 'who can do anything without worry'. Thus, she reflects my old self: Thinking she can do anything and not respecting anything or anyone. No wonder why I don't like her.

I think that's a bit mean to Tenshi. Now yes, she does indeed not consider the ramifications of her actions, but I feel the reason she's like this is a genuine problem with her upbringing. Now, I'm not saying there are issues to the point of domestic disturbance, but she could certainly have been neglected as a child, which could lead to rather severe psychological issues. Gensokyo+ means that these didn't really form, but she still might feel that she doesn't owe anything to her elders, who are most likely trying to impose a certain kind of lifestyle on her. Don't forget, Tenshi's a simple soul, it doesn't take much to make her happy, so there's certainly some blame to lay on whoever brought her up. On the other hand, we see Tenshi quite content back up in Heaven at the end of SWR, so this was probably a single exaggerated outburst, meaning she's also to blame, in this case for her perception of her home. I think it's a case of mutual misunderstanding between Tenshi and her home that led to this, which, honestly, makes for a nice story with an eventual happy ending.

Nice observation on Sanae and her similarities to Tenshi, by the way!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 05, 2009, 06:10:51 PM
Uh, thanks. And yeah, it's probably a little mean to Tenshi, but I'm also a little biased: Where I live, the 'normal' teenager is just like Tenshi. So I didn't really thought about what kind of upbringing she had, because, y'know, it would be like the same damn thing what's it on TV these days. They say this and that, and who to blame, without doing anything, and these kind of teens became normal. I know, my whole high school class was like this (I still remember when they burned my neck with a lighter during an english lesson... eek).

Fortunately, just as you said, Tenshi probably got ye olde good ending, just like in those old films: she went to face reality, and during hardships she learned that she is just a child. Or something like that.
At least, this thinking redeemed her for me (and also my hated old self). Now the only remaining character I don't like is Sakuya. I don't really have problems with her personality and her character, besides that she always kicks my ass in all the VS games, and that she's too popular.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 05, 2009, 07:44:25 PM
Uh, thanks. And yeah, it's probably a little mean to Tenshi, but I'm also a little biased: Where I live, the 'normal' teenager is just like Tenshi. So I didn't really thought about what kind of upbringing she had, because, y'know, it would be like the same damn thing what's it on TV these days. They say this and that, and who to blame, without doing anything, and these kind of teens became normal. I know, my whole high school class was like this (I still remember when they burned my neck with a lighter during an english lesson... eek).

Fortunately, just as you said, Tenshi probably got ye olde good ending, just like in those old films: she went to face reality, and during hardships she learned that she is just a child. Or something like that.
At least, this thinking redeemed her for me (and also my hated old self). Now the only remaining character I don't like is Sakuya. I don't really have problems with her personality and her character, besides that she always kicks my ass in all the VS games, and that she's too popular.

Whoa, that is pretty awful. This kind of stuff was always on the other side of the TV from me, so I have no personal experience, but I can totally see where your animosity comes from.

As for Sakuya's popularity...Well, I can't justify that in-setting. That's a matter of your personal preference and I'm cool with that. In fact, in-setting she's not very popular either, from what I remember of canon.


On a more general note, tomorrow I'll be starting with Subterranean Animism. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to do UFO once I get to it, though I might have to resort to more unusual means since I don't have the OST. Like Youtube. Nice and exotic, that.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 05, 2009, 09:06:44 PM
I'm talking about Sakuya being too-popular in the Fandom. I just don't know what is good in maids.

Anyway, SA. SA actually stands out in its stages' music for me, rather than its boss music. Stage 3 music is just like some music in a Traditional Village, it visuals some kind of a traditional japanese festival to me. It is also said in some scenarios that there's actually a festival there. And it's an underground traditional village. I was in an underground village before (there's one in Transylvania, Europe, it was actually a salt mine; and there was even a church there! With its colorful mosaic windows, it really felt like the Palace of Earth Spirits. At least if I remember right.) and it had a really cool atmosphere.

And then Heartful Fancy is something even more nostalgic than Mysterious Mountain, but now I know the answer why: it sounds a lot like some old games' end level music what I've played when I was a child. It was a pleasant surprise when I heard it.

And then Lullaby of Deserted Hell. No comment. Best Stage theme EVAR.

I'm looking forward to your posts.   
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Lloyd Dunamis on October 06, 2009, 06:07:14 AM
And then Lullaby of Deserted Hell. No comment. Best Stage theme EVAR.
*rapidly waves hands up&down* I SECOND THE COMMENT!! >/////////////< No words can describe SA's stage 5 theme's goodness!
... well, unless we start analyzing it... but meh! >/////////////< *over-excited, causing danmaku hearts to flow all over*

It's so unfortunate of me that I can't enjoy Lullaby of Deserted Hell's stereo goodness very well right now because something in our old computer's speaker out connection obstructs the left-side signals >_>

SA tracks 8 (Heartfelt Fancy) to 17 (Future Dream) were the first Touhou BGMs I've ever listened to, from a NicoVideo, and loved. I didn't know which stage themes were from boss themes then. I'll write thoughts of mine that I remember during those days (the BGM title below indicates the only part of the title I can read from Japanese):
"Heartfelt Fancy"- some deep-meaning 1st-stage theme with slow-but-heavy danmakus around in some mansion.
"<something> 3rd eye"- some kind of a vampire's theme, since I do remember that there's a vampire in Touhou... but a 3rd-eyed vampire?
"<something> Lullaby"- some serene, foggy ruins where the player moves cautiously for zero-visibility bullets or something.
"<2nd to the ending music>"- the first place I thought of is a tavern. Next is a menu BGM.

Some climax parts of other tracks caught my attention as well, but I'm not able to materialize its description. <and I'm out of words +_+>
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 06, 2009, 06:36:42 AM
I'm talking about Sakuya being too-popular in the Fandom. I just don't know what is good in maids.

Anyway, SA. SA actually stands out in its stages' music for me, rather than its boss music. Stage 3 music is just like some music in a Traditional Village, it visuals some kind of a traditional japanese festival to me.

And then Lullaby of Deserted Hell. No comment. Best Stage theme EVAR.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about too, regarding Sakuya. My fault, I tend to be really unclear what I'm on about.

As for SA - yeah, I mentioned upthread that this is where ZUN gets all creative. He forgoes his usual blazing-fast tempo and instead goes for more melodic stage themes. This was most prominent for me in Stage 2, where the focus is all melody, and a mellow one at that.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 06, 2009, 02:21:06 PM
Right then, finally starting on Subterranean Animism. As I keep saying, it's really the stage music that makes the soundtrack unique, as many of the stage tracks focus on a compelling melody. These melodies also tend to be far more...lyrical than those of the previous games, slower, with more room to evoke emotion and imagery.

Yamame Kurodani - The Sealed-Away Youkai ~ Lost Place

There's a duality in this track. There are two parts present, they're very clear, can't miss them, and they are very different from each other. The first part is a 2-bar repeating ostinato based on a minor chord, and the second part is a mostly major, flighty 8-bar melody. Considering how quickly the piece switches between the two, it shows that these two parts show core character aspects of Yamame that vie for front positions in her behaviour all the time.

The first part is most certainly menacing. The rock guitar is very pronounced here, playing deep, long chords, supporting the piano's doing much the same. It's a very simple ostinato, representing less a coherent thought but more something subconscious and dark, perhaps an unsettling mannerism or a way of speaking - something that is clearly unnerving about Yamame, but without so much development that you can put a finger on it. Now, Yamame is a disease youkai, so I would say this fits reasonably well - much like with Hina and her curses, one would always be on the edge with Yamame, never knowing if she might lose control and drop something nasty on you.

On the other hand, the melody itself is energetic, open, with the occasional ornament. The pitch is high and the articulation staccato, all in all suggesting a playful personality without ulterior motive or malice, one that does not give much thought to anything and reveling in the moment. The sheer contrast of this part with the previous one suggests to me that Yamame is not much aware of her "darker" side, or does not think of it as much as others might.

An interesting touch that I've seen in other pieces is the background acoustic guitar quickly plucking individual strings, the sound eliciting the imagery of a multitude spider's (for example) legs skittering about.

There's really not much more to Yamame than that. She's a spider, she's got disease powers, and that put a lot of people on the edge more than they really should, considering her light and simple personality.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 07, 2009, 09:57:08 AM
I figured not many would really care about Yamame. First stage bosses rarely get much fan attention, unless they have some weird quirk, like Letty's hitbox. Heck, Kisume is way more popular than Yamame, and she's just a midboss, due to her bucket-Ranka status. That said, the next one, from what I understand, is mighty popular, so I'll hope to do her justice.

Parsee Mizuhashi - Green-Eyed Jealousy

There is little in the way of showing combat in this piece. To me, Jealousy is more a demonstration of bitterness and second-guessing that only leads to psychological self-harm. With no input from the listener (or the player), Parsee is able to drive herself to desperation simply due to her attitude regarding her surroundings. Gensokyo+ limits the extent to which this develops, so Parsee?s insecurities never escalate to physical self-harm, but I would not put it past Parsee to be a miserable wreck most of the time, if in anyone?s company. Now, the piece demonstrates that Parsee is not completely controlled by her emotions, and that she is capable of making statements to herself, introspective or otherwise. Unfortunately, these statements could certainly send her off in the wrong direction, making things even worse. Let me show what brings me to these conclusions.

There are two parts to the piece that play sequentially, and then are repeated with embellishments in the second pass. Curiously, there is no introduction to speak of, the piece jumps straight into the first part of the melody, showing a degree of self-centredness, in that Parsee brings attention immediately to herself, without letting the listener prepare mentally. The first part on the first pass is a bitter melody of extreme proportions. The melody starts off in a quiet major, in a relatively low pitch, before emphasizing a transition into a high-pitched minor, as if saying ?things can be pretty good? If only everything wasn?t so awful.? This is a forced transition, a rhetorical statement by Parsee, without letting the listener get a word in edgewise. Perhaps deciding that she did not emphasise her message enough, Parsee repeats herself, more forceful, yet still gentle.

I?ll go off on a slight tangent for the moment and emphasise Parsee?s gentleness and why I feel this is not a combat piece. The instrumentation employs the softest instruments I?ve heard in any track so far for its main melody. We have low synthesizer chords in the background with absolutely no edge to them, sounding more like a hum than anything else, but non-legato, preventing it from sounding like built-up power. We have non-legato piano playing single notes, avoiding chords completely, presenting a clear sound but without any force behind it. We have chimes for God?s sake, whose small and clear sound presents something far from aggression. To complete the impression, the melody is in ? time, presenting measured elegance and caution. Parsee is not a fighter, not with these characteristics.

Going back to the first part?s repeated force, those chimes emphasise all aspects of Parsee?s statement, both the bitter attitude and the forced rhetoric. The combination of these aspects with Parsee?s gentleness suggests a certain passive-aggressiveness to her.

The second part introduces something like an accordion to the melody, the closest Parsee might be able to get to the power of trumpets or organ. The texture breaks the flow of the previous sections, with many more chords and those upwards-moving intervals, making this section a declaration of sorts, more honest and open than the rhetoric of the first section. The suddenness of this section probably has Parsee cutting herself off, trying to put a stop to whatever thought processes were going through her head when she was going on about the grass on the other side. Parsee is most likely aware of where this would lead her if it got out of control. Unfortunately, she lacks the will to make it stick. The first part comes in more powerful than before, the force in her self-declaration now only making this part stronger. The piano has been relegated to scattered arpeggioes at a blazing pace in the background, giving me the image of a racing thought process, one never able to lock on to something concrete, eventually serving as a reinforcing background for the jealousy-fueled outburst. This is what I meant when I said that Parsee inflicts rather severe psychological harm on herself ? constantly second-guessing herself, she subconsciously warps any common sense of hers, as well as emotions she feels naturally, into something that reinforces her feelings of bitterness at her own situation, the same feelings that lead to jealousy in the first place. Parsee exists in a self-destructive positive feedback loop that only stops if Parsee is in no position to form opinions. Despite this loop having an upper limit due to Gensokyo+, she?s still in a terrible situation caused by her own insecurities, and I?m having trouble finding any positive aspects in this.

Somewhat grimdarker than usual, I hope that this analysis nevertheless gives Parsee justice. I certainly have developed a lot of sympathy for her, and hope that she has a chance to get better.




Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 07, 2009, 01:00:58 PM
So, to put it simply, she is only jealous when there's someone else there, not just her. So she's not jealous when she's alone, so she's a loner. And thanks to that there's little to no people going to or from the underground, she rarely meets with anyone, so most of the time she's... happy. O_o
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 07, 2009, 01:15:45 PM
So, to put it simply, she is only jealous when there's someone else there, not just her. So she's not jealous when she's alone, so she's a loner. And thanks to that there's little to no people going to or from the underground, she rarely meets with anyone, so most of the time she's... happy. O_o

Now that you mention it... Yep, which is kinda funny. But you can't actually tell, since actually checking whether she's happy or not means being around Parsee, which activates her jealousy, making her unhappy. A case of Shroedinger's Jealousy, if you will.

In all seriousness, what you say makes a lot of sense - Parsee is aware of her crippling insecurities, so she'd naturally stay away from things that trigger them. I doubt she enjoys overwhelming pangs of jealousy.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 08, 2009, 12:55:57 PM
[edit] Some more thoughts on Parsee. Having said that she probably doesn't enjoy pangs of jealousy, I just realised that there's little evidence to suggest this is actually true. It's not unusual for humans to feel pleasure from negative emotions, especially such aggressive ones as jealousy. Now, Parsee is a youkai, but ZUN's quite severely humanised them, so I think I can be safe in making the conclusion that she does as well. Thus it could well be that Parsee indeed does enjoy her own jealousy, in a guilty-pleasure kind of way. I'd be interested in everyone's comments on this.


Yuugi Hoshiguma - A Flower-Studded Sake Dish on Mt. Ooe

Whether her SAKE NOT EVEN DROP or not, Yuugi is clearly playing around here. From texture, to instrumentation, to the melody itself, the music shows someone without a shred of seriousness in them (not counting the short introduction for now), someone with exactly one goal in mind - mucking about. There is exactly one melodic motif in the entire piece that picks up something new every repetition, but stays unmistakably itself throughout, showing Yuugi's strong dedication to the cause of her own entertainment.

Instrumentation-wise, ZUN's added a few new ones to his repertoire. The introduction has something that could pass off as strings, and the main melody is characterised by a double-reed instrument, probably some sort of oboe. The former almost always adds a lyrical power to a motif, excellent for high-powered emotional tension, whereas the latter creates a strained, almost squeaky sound that has a comic effect no matter whether it's in major or minor - it always sounds dramatically exaggerated to the point of parody.

Considering the above, I'll start with the piece's introduction, the short little segment that sounds nothing like what follows it. In a short 13 seconds, the motif manages to impart a grandiose feeling, a dramatic entrance and a bit of a nervous tension. Notes are long and always lead to powerful chords which come up very often due to the short 2/4 time signature. The small motifs that connect one bar to another rarely use the bar's natural beats, instead relying equally on syncopation and triplet notes to break up the rhythm, in this case doing so emphasise a chord on a proper strong beat, as well as keeping the listener unbalanced with this brash disregard of the rules. The instrumentation spans a wide range on the keyboard, showing the listener a vast magnitude, and the bass drum passages present an implacable, mighty background, a feeling of invincibility. I, says Yuugi, am an Oni. A demon. A terrible beast who moves mountains with her bare hands and swallows enemies whole. Hear me roar!.

Of course, knowing Suika, this a rather large ham (tvtropes link here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LargeHam) if I've been confusing people by using this to describe people; usual warnings related to tvtropes apply). Yuugi seems to break down into merry laughter once her act is done, all the seriousness completely gone, the flutes-and-strings replaced with oboe-and-trumpet, with their, as I described above, comic tones. The melody shows a great degree of whimsy, all in major at a quick pace, lots of ornamentation and hopping across major intervals. It is a complete personality change, or, more accurately, a personality reveal: Yuugi is a loudmouth, probably a raging drunkard, but most of all she loves to have fun. She enjoys poking fun at things, and certainly has no problem making fun of her own nature. None of it is malevolent, even though her behaviour might hit a lot of nerves due to her lack of inhibition.

In fact, listening to the track again, it's really beginning to feel like the entire track is Yugi cracking up at her own joke. "Rawr," she goes, "I'm a monster" (cookies to whoever gets the reference), then bursts out laughing uncontrollably. As one does when one hears something hilarious, she'll eventually repeat it, breathless, then crack up again, slowly calming down with the piano segment. Of course, it seems she's quite easily amused, as she quickly finds something else to laugh at, and the melody breaks out at full strength again.

It's interesting to compare the attitudes between Sake Dish and Onigashima - both, at least in my interpretation, show a great lack of inhibition, the willingness to make a fool of oneself if it's good fun, and to really let loose when acting something ridiculous. I would be curious to hear another Oni's theme, as, honestly, they are a lot of fun.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Prody on October 08, 2009, 01:38:54 PM
BERSERKER SOUL! DRAW! MONSTA CARDO!

Actually, I think Yuugi is more a more optimistic person. She's a fun loving youkai who enjoys fighting, not a terrible beast.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on October 08, 2009, 01:53:46 PM
I love the analysis of Parsee... but oh how depressed I am now. :(

It makes me love the girl even more though, the poor thing.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 08, 2009, 02:37:41 PM
BERSERKER SOUL! DRAW! MONSTA CARDO!

Actually, I think Yuugi is more a more optimistic person. She's a fun loving youkai who enjoys fighting, not a terrible beast.

Isn't that what I said? I'm not that unclear, am I? Her "monster" bit is all a big act to scare people (or even just surprise them), then yell "psych!" and burst out laughing. A bit of harmless fun at others' expense.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 08, 2009, 03:02:55 PM
...SWR, Remilia in Aya's Scenario?

Anyway, yeah, it's basically we all thought about Yuugi. Actually not just her theme, but the stage theme as well, is like this. The whole stage, including the boss fight is a festival. Everyone is having fun, except - of course - the heroine.

Looking forward to Satori Maiden. A little analyzing from someone who know nothing about music, but still a musical person:
The start is menacing. The main melody is haunting or creepy. Try humming it a little slower, and it really feels like that kind of music what is messing with your mind. The same kind of music in horrors, what causes fear. But you're the one who causing your own fear, not the song; it just messes with your mind. Anyway, for me, while I like the song, and really, really like Satori, the song sorta gives out a "you don't want to be with this girl" atmosphere.

Yeah, short. But this is how I hear it.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 08, 2009, 03:05:25 PM
With all the various instruments showing up in the analysis it's worth noticing that almost all of them are synthesized. ZUN may be a master with his synth but his musical talents don't really extend to real instruments. Of course, that just makes his achievement even more awesome especially to someone like me who can't cut or sequence instrumentals to save my life. .
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 08, 2009, 03:36:54 PM
Quote from: Solais
Looking forward to Satori Maiden. A little analyzing from someone who know nothing about music, but still a musical person:
The start is menacing. The main melody is haunting or creepy. Try humming it a little slower, and it really feels like that kind of music what is messing with your mind. The same kind of music in horrors, what causes fear. But you're the one who causing your own fear, not the song; it just messes with your mind. Anyway, for me, while I like the song, and really, really like Satori, the song sorta gives out a "you don't want to be with this girl" atmosphere.

Now that I know what I'm looking for, there's a wealth of similarity between Satori Maiden and... U.N. Owen. Similar attitudes and instrumental approaches. Hell, Satori Maiden even has UNO's clacking sounds when the introduction opens up fully. Considering the mindscrew of UNO there's no wonder there's that "stay away" feeling in Satori Maiden. But more on that when I actually get to it tomorrow.

[edit] I think I know what you're talking about, but just to make sure, what do you mean when you said Remilia in Aya's scenario in SWR?

With all the various instruments showing up in the analysis it's worth noticing that almost all of them are synthesized. ZUN may be a master with his synth but his musical talents don't really extend to real instruments.

Oh, I imagine they're all synthesized. That said, it's interesting to see ZUN's evolution as a syntheziser-based composer throughout the series, starting from the exclusive synth-and-trumpets we hear in EoSD to the almost orchestral selection we get later on.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 08, 2009, 08:27:05 PM
[edit] I think I know what you're talking about, but just to make sure, what do you mean when you said Remilia in Aya's scenario in SWR?

Remilia: Growl-!

Aya: It's, it's here! It's a monster! What's going to happen to our correspondent?!

Remilia: I'm-gonna-eat-you-!

Well, at least it sounds like that...
Also: It's the most funniest scene in the game.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 08, 2009, 09:11:38 PM
Remilia: Growl-!

Aya: It's, it's here! It's a monster! What's going to happen to our correspondent?!

Remilia: I'm-gonna-eat-you-!

Well, at least it sounds like that...
Also: It's the most funniest scene in the game.

Ah, yep, thought it was that. Although for me the funniest scene (also involving Remilia, oddly enough) was the one where Reimu accuses her of plotting something, and turns out that Remi was plotting something, just not this particular incident. To me, that's an excellent representation of Remi.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 09, 2009, 05:50:16 AM
I know you might not agree to taking a detour from SA for a bit, but could I ask you for your opinions on what Innocent Treasures tells you about ZUN himself since it's labeled as his theme? It's been bugging me since I started reading this thread, not that that's a bad thing.

Feel free to put it off for a long as you want or to ignore the request altogether. I'll survive.  :)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 09, 2009, 06:37:18 AM
I know you might not agree to taking a detour from SA for a bit, but could I ask you for your opinions on what Innocent Treasures tells you about ZUN himself since it's labeled as his theme? It's been bugging me since I started reading this thread, not that that's a bad thing.

I've never even heard of this one! Huh. I'm a sucky fan. Anyway, I'll try to go over it later, but a few thoughts for now:

That's... a stage theme. It really is. So first thing that comes to mind is that ZUN might see himself as a core part of the world he's created, not as an individual in that world. He doesn't come into the foreground as one does with a boss theme, or presents himself as a character, but rather his objective is to present his world, and see how everyone else interacts with that.


Here's a question from me: I searched for Innocent Treasures on Youtube, and clicked the first link, which gave me the correct theme. The picture for that one was, presumably, a CD cover of sorts, featuring two characters, both female, a blonde and a black-haired girl, the latter carrying a book. I've seen these two turn up in doujins before, from different authors, from what I remember. Who are they? Where did they first turn up?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Kuma on October 09, 2009, 06:46:33 AM
Maribel and Renko, Original characters made for a series of music CDs that came with stories.
They live in the outside world, and are obsessed with trying to find Gensokyo.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 09, 2009, 07:17:38 AM
To clarify, the blonde girl on the cover (Maribel) can see and cross borders, sort of a Yukari-lite, while the black haired girl (Renko) is a human GPS who can identify her exact location by looking at stars.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 09, 2009, 08:52:29 AM
And then there's the whole Mary is Yukari Theory... not going there, even thought I want to.

Also: Then it means ZUN is Gensokyo? Or Gensokyo is ZUN?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tengukami on October 09, 2009, 11:39:35 AM
Remilia: Growl-!

Aya: It's, it's here! It's a monster! What's going to happen to our correspondent?!

Remilia: I'm-gonna-eat-you-!

(http://i38.tinypic.com/ziu2bt.jpg)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 09, 2009, 01:35:39 PM
(http://i38.tinypic.com/ziu2bt.jpg)

Eep. Here's to hoping Remi's just getting carried away.

In other news: Onwards!

Satori Komeiji ? Satori Maiden ~ 3rd Eye

What hit me after the third or fourth playthrough of this track is that both melodies present in the piece, discounting the connecting segment at 0:26, are actually quite pleasant. I?m going to contest you here, Solais ? the melodies, taken completely by themselves, feel really quite dance-like for the first one and extremely lyrical for the second. Although they carry a slightly bitter tone, they are certainly not threatening or mindscrewy. The mindscrew is completely carried by the accompaniment and instrumentation, and is ramped up by them to immense proportions. I?ll go over the content of the melodies first, as the most interesting parts lie indeed where the mindscrew is greatest.

The first melody has many strong beats, lots of ornamentation and syncopation to emphasise those strong beats. As I said before, this smacks of a dance to me, a fast-paced, whirling dance with lots of emphasis on steps and jumps. Considering the harmonies present (and I hesitate to make the comparison due to poor familiarity), this reminds me of Middle-Eastern dance music. Whether intentional or not, these kinds of harmonies might sound alien to those unused to it, for example some of us Westerners, thus painting Satori in an unfamiliar light, something we can?t associate with. Of course, fear of the unknown is probably one of the more animalistic emotions humans (and, I guess, humanform Youkai) have, so it is probably little wonder why Satori is so feared, not even taking into account her power. Of course, this means that many won?t notice the grace with which Satori holds herself, her quiet and strong dancer?s confidence.
This last bit is more of an afterthought, but the sort of dance that this melody bears similarities to is usually danced by men, so there could be a bit of masculinity in Satori, probably most prominent in her assertiveness in her introduction dialogue, where Satori demonstrates her dominance over the characters by holding a one-sided conversation with the characters by reading their every thought.

The second melody is quite straightforward in its harmony, with few odd tones, instead going for a minor key with a few detours into major to show sadness, longing, a certain depression. The Satori shown here is probably unhappy with her current situation, whether it is because of the way she?s seen by others or due to something more ephemeral. I would say it?s simply because she?s lonely, considering her only company for the last whoever-knows-how-long are not the sharpest tools in the shed.

The accompaniment and instrumentation are what really give Satori her ?oomph?. ZUN pulls out pretty much every trick in the book to make the listener uncomfortable and the sound disconcerting. The first melody starts off with a growling bass and the harshest acoustic guitar I?ve ever heard, cymbals, of course, providing sharp accents at the most opportune times. The first melody continues, and the guitar picks up, its completely cold sound having the potential to actually scare, since it really brings a lot of attention to itself, making it sound louder than it actually is. This is another of those animalistic things that seem to permeate Satori?s repertoire ? loud, sharp, high-pitched sounds tend to quicken the pulse, pushing the listener into action. Of course, the listener has no way to actually respond other than to turn the track off, so the helplessness combines with the adrenaline rush to actually create the feeling of fear. Remember that famous track from Psycho? This is much the same effect. You?re absolutely right here, Solais ? the fear is completely internal, created by the listener himself, with nothing to really inspire it other than some loud sounds.

The second melody does much the same, except this time with a loud bass, the minor key of the melody giving it a threatening tone. Its unique contribution to the mindscrew comes in the second repetition, where the melody?s played by two trumpets in a diminished interval, one that sounds just off a pleasant regular interval, once again making the listener squirm, completely uncaring about it.

Basically, Satori seems to be a master at freaking people the hell out, demonstrated by the variety of techniques the melody employs to do so. It?s clear that she does so consciously, so I feel she?s somewhat of a bully. She might lament this from time to time, and might even show regret, so there?s quite a bit of a complex going on within her, balancing the need to assert herself versus the want to have some more varied company. A large factor that pushes people away from her is their inability to understand her, so it?s probably simply a matter of time before others get more used to her, and she stops taking advantage of their weakness.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 09, 2009, 02:53:42 PM
I always got more of a Western vibe from the piece but maybe that's just me.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 09, 2009, 03:05:59 PM
I always got more of a Western vibe from the piece but maybe that's just me.

Hmm...well, the origin is up for interpretation, certainly, which is why I didn't draw any conclusions from that. Still, I think it being a danse macabre-sort of thing kind of works.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 09, 2009, 04:19:44 PM
Hmm, it's surprising, that I was more uncertain with the melody, and more certain with the start. Dunno. But as I said, I'm not an expert, I know nothing about music, besides the emotions they bring.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 09, 2009, 05:45:02 PM
Hmm, it's surprising, that I was more uncertain with the melody, and more certain with the start. Dunno. But as I said, I'm not an expert, I know nothing about music, besides the emotions they bring.

Oh, hey, I'm not preaching absolute truths here, there's a lot of interpretation involved, and it doesn't take an expert to make judgements. Now, justifying them might take some experience, but I'm still interested in everyone's opinions, no matter if they might disagree with mine.

In this case, I think that the opening sounds so horror-esque for you when just humming the melody by itself is that you subconsciously add the accompaniment on top of it. I could be wrong, of course, let's see...

Not the best of examples, but it works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AdzPv14t_A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AdzPv14t_A)
Does this opening elicit the same feeling, or a different one? If the same, then I'm wrong, and I'm fine with that. On the other hand, if it elicits a different one, then the accompaniment quality really does contribute to most of the mindscrew.

I hope I'm not sounding patronising. All I'm doing is shamelessly using you for a whimsical musical experiment.  ;)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 09, 2009, 06:03:50 PM
Now it sounds perfectly like some theme in Castlevania. Not horroristic, but... somekind of vampirish. Vampirish meaning there's that dance-like feeling, but with some sort of menacing "Holy shit, it's a vampire's dance!" feel. Even the main melody now, as it's still piano, and it doesn't change instrument. Dunno.

Anyway, maybe you should check out ZUN's Maribel and Renko story CDs. There are a lot of unique original songs on them, and some interesting arranges. Like Necrofantasia, what somehow is still the same, yet it sounds so different. Or Reincarnation, Mima's theme from PoDD, that's great too. And, of course, G Free. Just G Free.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Moerin on October 09, 2009, 06:15:37 PM
And, of course, G Free. Just G Free.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only person who thinks G Free is good, but not great...

Here's a question from me: I searched for Innocent Treasures on Youtube, and clicked the first link, which gave me the correct theme. The picture for that one was, presumably, a CD cover of sorts, featuring two characters, both female, a blonde and a black-haired girl, the latter carrying a book. I've seen these two turn up in doujins before, from different authors, from what I remember. Who are they? Where did they first turn up?

Eheh, next you'll be asking who Rin Satsuki is~

Anyway... I've been reading these for a while and not commented on them, so I'll just say that I find them to be most enlightening.  They've allowed me to look at some of the characters in a different light, which is always a good thing.  I kinda hope you do the PC-98 themes after you've finished the Windows ones, but... Yeah.

Ahem... But yes, I look forward to the rest of your analyses~
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 09, 2009, 06:45:04 PM
Anyway, maybe you should check out ZUN's Maribel and Renko story CDs. There are a lot of unique original songs on them, and some interesting arranges. Like Necrofantasia, what somehow is still the same, yet it sounds so different. Or Reincarnation, Mima's theme from PoDD, that's great too. And, of course, G Free. Just G Free.

I'll put those on my to-do list then. G Free is pleasant, but sounds like a stage theme to me, and, for me, no stage theme can beat Extend Ash - Hourai Victim, although Heartfelt Fancy comes close. That said, I wonder if the Mokou fanboy in me has any influence on that.

Quote from: Moerin
Eheh, next you'll be asking who Rin Satsuki is~

Anyway... I've been reading these for a while and not commented on them, so I'll just say that I find them to be most enlightening.  They've allowed me to look at some of the characters in a different light, which is always a good thing.  I kinda hope you do the PC-98 themes after you've finished the Windows ones, but... Yeah.

I'm tempted to do the PC-98 ones, but I somewhat dislike chiptunes, so, if at all, I'll be going through the games in reverse order until I can't handle them any more. Also, I'm glad that my analyses inspire a different look at characters. They've certainly done so for me, so it's good to hear similar thoughts from you guys.

There's no possible way this could turn out poorly, so tell me, who is this Rin Satsuki? Touhou wiki says she doesn't exist. :V
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 09, 2009, 07:00:28 PM
Well, yeah, G Free, is really not that great for me too, I just sorta believed that most of you would find it great like most of the people. Rock arranges are a little better, but those still not make my top10 list.

And yeah, there's nothing much else about Satsuki Rin. But, my second fangame idea would feature her as the final boss. Too bad, I'll never do it.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tarquinius on October 09, 2009, 11:26:16 PM
I may be biased as Satori is one of my favourite characters, but, when you mention her being a bully, I like to see it as her knowing that, no matter what, most people are going to fear and hate her, and she'd rather have them fear her for a reason that's more than the fact that she's a satori.
I just thought of this rather spur-of-the-moment as I was reading this, so I'm interested in hearing what you think about that idea, and I'll probably revise it a bit once I think about it some more.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 09, 2009, 11:58:13 PM
I may be biased as Satori is one of my favourite characters, but, when you mention her being a bully, I like to see it as her knowing that, no matter what, most people are going to fear and hate her, and she'd rather have them fear her for a reason that's more than the fact that she's a satori.
I just thought of this rather spur-of-the-moment as I was reading this, so I'm interested in hearing what you think about that idea, and I'll probably revise it a bit once I think about it some more.

Hmm. I... don't really know. Wikipedia describes a satori as pretty much what Satori does - a youkai that goes up to people and tells them their thoughts. I would then think that it's just something that makes Satori who she is, an inherent part of her nature, a form of assertion of herself to both herself and to others.

That she uses this ability to actively make people uncomfortable seems to be above and beyond her nature, perhaps due to some sort of wish to express individuality? You would be right then, as she would seem to prefer to be Satori, not just a satori. In this case, her bullying would stem from the insecurities formed due to her loneliness - she would want to be remembered by many, so would attempt to make large impressions on them in the only way she knows - mindscrew.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 10, 2009, 12:36:38 AM
Rin Satsuki was supposed to be the third playable character in PCB after Marisa and Reimu and ZUN even used her picture in his Comiket ad for PCB. She pretty much disappeared after Sakuya was put in instead but the game data does have her name in a couple of places.

no stage theme can beat Extend Ash - Hourai Victim

This definitely sounds like something a Mokou fanboy would say. I don't mean any offense but it sounds like you're dismissing any potentially better themes that you've yet to hear as well. Why not leave that area open?

However, does Extend Ash match your impression of the ideal stage theme? If so, it would be hard to beat from your point of view.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tarquinius on October 10, 2009, 01:32:34 AM
That she uses this ability to actively make people uncomfortable seems to be above and beyond her nature, perhaps due to some sort of wish to express individuality? You would be right then, as she would seem to prefer to be Satori, not just a satori. In this case, her bullying would stem from the insecurities formed due to her loneliness - she would want to be remembered by many, so would attempt to make large impressions on them in the only way she knows - mindscrew.
This doesn't match what I was trying to say very well, but I think that this is much closer to my view of Satori than what I had posted. I view her loneliness as one of her defining characteristics - she spends all of her time in the palace with only her pets and occasionally her sister as company. Like you said, scaring others may be her way of ensuring that people know about her and, if they meet her, remember her.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 10, 2009, 12:19:50 PM
This definitely sounds like something a Mokou fanboy would say. I don't mean any offense but it sounds like you're dismissing any potentially better themes that you've yet to hear as well. Why not leave that area open?

However, does Extend Ash match your impression of the ideal stage theme? If so, it would be hard to beat from your point of view.

Heh, it's not quite that bad. Basically I really like the melody to Extend Ash, for personal taste reasons. But I think you've got the wrong impression, I certainly don't dismiss tracks simply because "I don't like them as much as Extend Ash". That would be like me refusing to eat anything other than steak since nothing else is my favourite. I like other things, just not as much.

And no, it's not the ideal stage theme for me, I don't want more tracks that sound like it, as I feel ZUN's greatest strength is the variety of his compositions. I've yet to find two tracks that sound similar for a prolonged time, and I don't want this to change.

Oh yeah, I suppose that when I said "no stage theme can beat" I suppose it would be more accurate to say "no stage theme so far has beaten, and there have been a lot of good ones".
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Hieda no Aya on October 10, 2009, 11:49:58 PM
ZUN's side albums are definitely worth checking out. I mean, it's ZUN music, and it's technically Touhou, what are the odds it's not gonna be good? Besides, G Free has nothing on Greenwich in the Sky or The Strange Everyday Life of the Flying Shrine Maiden. :V

The Satori discussion is also interesting. I guess she always seemed to me resigned to her isolation, a bit jaded. But then, she really fights dirty. I guess it's hard to say how much of her dickery is deliberate and how much is just a lack of boundaries, isn't it? Mind-readers are weird.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 11, 2009, 05:06:58 AM
Going back to Reimu for a bit, I just realized that her sprite in fighting games has a perpetually annoyed expression except for when she uses spellcards and it changes to one of ecstasy (which is probably what inspired Tamiflu Miko). I don't know what to make of this in light of the Maiden's Capriccio analysis.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 11, 2009, 07:45:46 AM
ZUN's side albums are definitely worth checking out. I mean, it's ZUN music, and it's technically Touhou, what are the odds it's not gonna be good? Besides, G Free has nothing on Greenwich in the Sky or The Strange Everyday Life of the Flying Shrine Maiden. :V

The Satori discussion is also interesting. I guess she always seemed to me resigned to her isolation, a bit jaded. But then, she really fights dirty. I guess it's hard to say how much of her dickery is deliberate and how much is just a lack of boundaries, isn't it? Mind-readers are weird.

I'll have a look at those, but in my spare time. Unless people really want me to, I won't analyse ZUN's side albums which do not relate to characters.

Satori. Yeah. I'll make an assumption first, which is that, considering Gensokyo+, Satori isn't a dick just for the hell of it and there will be underlying issues. In that case, you're right - she has isolation issues, and will have trouble identifying reasonable limits to her behaviour.

Quote from: Recon 5
Going back to Reimu for a bit, I just realized that her sprite in fighting games has a perpetually annoyed expression except for when she uses spellcards and it changes to one of ecstasy (which is probably what inspired Tamiflu Miko). I don't know what to make of this in light of the Maiden's Capriccio analysis.

First off, Tamiflu Miko is glorious to behold. I've never seen those videos before. Good lord.

As for Reimu's feelings during combat... I recall that I made the conclusion that Reimu has trouble understanding herself, and won't let anyone help in this regard, leading to her basically being in a perpetual identity crisis (until she does, indeed, find herself). The only things that are really concrete in her life would be the things she can perceive, the fundamental laws of physics and the like, which she can't really relate to. What she can relate to are the Spell Card Combat rules. Meaning every time a fight breaks out she doesn't have to think about who she is any more, she can just let loose and let the rules establish who she is and who she can be. I reckon this feeling of release is what leads to her expressions of ecstasy.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Jamuko on October 11, 2009, 11:21:56 AM
This thread is awesome. I don't really have enough of a tuned ear for music to analyze these things myself, but they make perfect sense when I read what you have to say. Kinda adds a whole new perspective of depth on my respect for ZUN's composing.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 12, 2009, 02:11:55 PM
This thread is awesome. I don't really have enough of a tuned ear for music to analyze these things myself, but they make perfect sense when I read what you have to say. Kinda adds a whole new perspective of depth on my respect for ZUN's composing.

Thanks for the positive feedback, and keep it coming!  ;D As always, I'm glad that I'm able to offer some new insights for everyone. And speaking of new insights...

Rin Kaenbyou ? Corpse Voyage ~ Be of Good Cheer!

Orin is quite hard to pin down, and I think this is what gives her a lot of her charm. The piece hops through moods and attitudes like they were nothing more than masks one puts on and takes off, never staying in one for long, like someone who can?t decide on their favourite desktop background and changes it every day (who? Me? Don?t know what you?re talking about). It?s too early to say if the word ?mask? is really appropriate ? whether the piece shows us the real parts of Orin, or whether the real her is hiding underneath an extremely varied act is not immediately obvious. As usual, I?ll go through this piece part by part, and I hope that, by the end, I?ll have an answer.

The first part is a towering, majestic affair, with powerful chords and instruments instilling a sense of awe. At first I thought the main instrument was organ, but now I think I?m mistaken ? that sound is created by a rather clever combination of brass and rock guitar. This, in itself, is probably not indicative of any character traits, but I do think it?s quite creative. Regardless, the long notes, the clear, ringing, high-pitched melody with little to no accompaniment, present the feeling of being the presence of something grand, powerful, with no room for tomfoolery. There is a genuine feeling in this section, no tells or winks in the form of ornaments or the like to tell us that this is a trick or a game ? this is the real thing. Of course, this does not rule out a good act by Orin, although it does tell us that she is certainly well-versed in self-presentation and bearing, she knows how to behave to be seen in a specific light, and this applies for all the upcoming sections.

Moving on to part two, the mood takes a whiplash turn into a far gentler, more lyrical direction. Almost exclusively in major, this soft melody is in stark contrast to the cold majesty of the part before. It is this contrast that is so evident between the five parts of this piece that convince me of what I mentioned above, that Orin switches between moods on an unpredictable, self-indulging basis. The melody here rarely ends far away from where it started, even though it might try to span large chords. The imagery in this part is of a cautious, gentle personality, one that cares for the listener, and makes sure not to surprise and overwhelm them.

Part three, compared to part two, is adventurous, more flamboyant. The accompaniment that was nothing more than a low hum in part two is now more pronounced, accenting individual chords, with the melody taking advantage of its high pitch to make this section a daring proclamation. The personality here is proud, boisterous, willing to satisfy its curiosity and taste for the dramatic.

Part four once again goes for the whiplash, suddenly moving into a lower pitch and a different key, sounding positively grim in contrast. We lose the melody, instead we get a passage that can only be described as brooding. Even the piano sounds muted. In another piece this part could be considered a connecting segment due to its lack of development of the piece proper, but, considering how different it is to every other part, it suddenly acquires a life of its own, becoming an inseparable part of the mood montage that makes up Orin. For Orin, even the process of brooding, the train of thought that leads from cause to effect, is a well-presented exterior, an exaggerated presentation of what?s going on in her mind at the moment, shown with all the seriousness that was dedicated to all the previous parts.

The fifth and final part, true to status quo, is sharply different to the part before it. The piano has lost its muted sound, ringing out loud and clear a playful melody, full of ornaments and syncopation that show an unmistakable playfulness that we?ve seen so often in other characters. And yet this part is given equal attention to all the others, which rules out the possibility of this being the ?true? Orin, who pretends to be what she?s not for the sake of fun.

What unifies each part is a certain sense of exaggeration of each one, as if Orin takes excessive care to show exactly who she?s trying to be. This precludes the personalities presented above as being natural to Orin. On the other hand, it?s not likely that she?d be able to construct so many personas without some sort of reference, so it?s likely that she?s actually intensifying aspects of her own personality, which is something I?d lean towards as opposed to all these personas being completely artificial constructs. In this case, Orin would bear a slight similarity to Tenshi, in that she loves experiencing her own moods and emotions, and cannot stand being in one state for a long time. It then makes sense that she would exaggerate her moods, even ones that only she can feel.


This is another one of those difficult pieces for me. There is a great variety in content, so I am entirely expecting conflicting opinions, and lots of them. I would be interested in what the rest of you have to say, as I?m not that confident about this particular analysis.

Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 12, 2009, 02:35:16 PM
I always found the overall cheeriness of Rin's theme to be a bit out of place in SA. Yuugi at least has no problems to mope about but Rin has every reason to be a bit negative (Nuclear Fusion sounds like Okuu's new power has really gone to her head). However, the piece might speak of her normal character outside of the storyline, maybe even before Kanako's subterfuge- a simple, cheerful, honest girl who just goes along with her emotions and who is open about even the smallest things. No acts or facades here, I think.

Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 12, 2009, 04:32:18 PM
I always found the overall cheeriness of Rin's theme to be a bit out of place in SA. Yuugi at least has no problems to mope about but Rin has every reason to be a bit negative (Nuclear Fusion sounds like Okuu's new power has really gone to her head). However, the piece might speak of her normal character outside of the storyline, maybe even before Kanako's subterfuge- a simple, cheerful, honest girl who just goes along with her emotions and who is open about even the smallest things. No acts or facades here, I think.

Yeah, that sounds about right. She might even be somewhat childish in her approach to things, since she's not had much opportunity to be around adults, considering the only people around her on any kind of regular basis are Satori and Utsuho. In fact, having said that, this could well be something true for the Satori&co crew - they've all been isolated, so will have trouble interacting with people suddenly barging in.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tengukami on October 12, 2009, 05:10:34 PM
Check your messages, Fightest.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 12, 2009, 05:23:24 PM
Yeah, that sounds about right. She might even be somewhat childish in her approach to things, since she's not had much opportunity to be around adults, considering the only people around her on any kind of regular basis are Satori and Utsuho. In fact, having said that, this could well be something true for the Satori&co crew - they've all been isolated, so will have trouble interacting with people suddenly barging in.

And, If I remember right, Orin uses 'Atai' too for "I", like Cirno. Yeah, she's childish. Or more like, she's a cat. She has mood swings like a real cat.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 13, 2009, 11:08:45 AM
Ah, finally, the moment I?ve been waiting for.

Utsuho Reiuji ? Solar Sect of Mystic Wisdom ~ Nuclear Fusion.

As I?ve probably mentioned before, this is my most favourite track amongst all those ZUN?s written so far, so I?ll ask everyone to bear with me while I gush for a bit.

What really makes the track work for me is a combination of visuals and attitude ? I didn?t really ?get it? until I actually saw Utsuho in action, and then it just clicked. To me, Utsuho is a Gurren Lagann character who wandered onto the set of Touhou, got all the appropriate makeovers but kept the attitude of hot-blooded shouting and superior firepower as a viable solution to any and all problems. Her dialogue just has me breaking out in a huge grin when she goes on about the power of nuclear fusion that distorts time itself, the high-temperature, high-pressure world that will scorch the land etc. etc. All she needs is a hearty ?Who the Hell do you think I am?? to finish the deal.

The whole piece is a testament to the words ?glorious? and ?triumphant?. ZUN pulls out all the tricks in the book to present a feeling of something grand and terrible, and I think he pulls it off with aplomb.

Concerning Utsuho?s personality, it?s hard to really determine ? she is utterly drunk with a devastating and flashy power that completely obscures any input we might get from Utsuho herself. In addition, the ?drunkenness? would distort any perception we might have of her personality, just as with a person inebriated in the normal fashion, so we might only get the vaguest brushstrokes of Utsuho?s picture. This in mind, I?ll actually get onto the piece.

I?ll start off with the devices ZUN uses to evoke the feeling of grandeur. These are, in fact, his usual fare, but they come together to create something greater than the sum of all parts. The most important part is the instrumentation and pitch. ZUN uses horns and trumpets for the majority of the piece, having an instrument selection that spans many octaves, most importantly catching the really low pitches that are usually reserved for the accompaniment. The accompaniment itself is even lower in pitch, and plays the usual supporting role of a deep and ominous power hum, the one that says ?there?s an ancient power here, beware.? Of course, this sort of pales in comparison to the brass blasting away at full strength across the entire pitch register, saying ?screw being careful, there?s all this power here, let?s use it.? In addition to the brass, a piano part is present throughout the piece, firmly in a comparably high pitch, only occasionally following the brass melody, but usually doing its own riff around it. Its clear, ringing sound suggests to me bursts of energy, sparking away as they wish; uncontrolled and unbounded by the stable reaction that Utsuho?s got going. Mostly these ?sparks? occur during the slower segments, whereas the piano tends to start following the rest of the melody when the pace picks up, creating imagery of such an overabundance of power that it simply needs to be released, whether Utsuho wants to or not.

Tempo and texture-wise, there is also a lot of contribution to the power present in the piece. Practically every note played by the brass is a chord, a big, powerful thing that stays for quite a long time due to the melodic sections being comparatively slow, which ensures that there is no dilution of the sound that?s being created. The tempo contrast present in the piece only furthers that: not counting the introduction, the second melodic segment picks up pace to release some energy, as I described above. Immediately following that part, we move into the third melodic part where the melody simply slow, no quicker than one or two chords per bar ? ?resounding? is a good descriptive word here. This is all about the imagery ? having released whatever power was overabundant, we are presented with Utsuho?s stable reaction, a huge, majestic glow, and are left to wonder if her source of power is really inexhaustible.

Harmony describes Utsuho?s fusion power as something aloof and inhuman, yet something that has been harnessed by someone who is all-too-human. The introduction?s buildup contains nothing but diminished and augmented chords, no harmonic structure to them whatsoever, presenting a power that does not care if it?s understood or not, and the first melodic part contains many sudden and sometimes illogical key changes, giving me this image of Utsuho not having a very good grasp on a reaction that she cannot comprehend, trying to harness it in different ways. By the third melodic part, she?s fully in control, and finally, I believe, we get a glimpse of her real nature ? the third part is practically all cadences, going from one strong harmony to another in quick and simple steps. Considering the melody, which I?ll get on to in a bit, I would say that Utsuho is quite simple, although not stupid ? after all, she is able to harness and contain this unsympathetic power. She does not delve into self-evaluation or discourse; she instead states things loudly and clearly and goes with what she decides on the spot. It is then easy to see how she was so easily convinced to take in all that power in the first place, as she is not the person to look back and think about things that happened in the past*. Hindsight is for sissies without nuclear fury to support them.
A last point for this section is that halfway through Utsuho tells the listener that yes, her power is inexhaustible, and turns it up a notch, moving the entire track up in pitch, entirely comfortably.

As for the melody, well, it supports what I just said ? it?s very simple. There?s a bit of variation, as there are three distinct melodic segments, although the second one is probably more of a connecting section with an extended ornament at the end, but the first segment is no more than 4 bars long, and the third segment is built up from nothing but cadences.

A final thought is that it is no wonder that Utsuho?s power goes to her head. She?s not the sharpest tool in the shed, spent most of her life in an abandoned Hell with a misanthropic master, so suddenly being able to call the shots and throw around nuclear fireballs would be huge break for Utsuho, and, considering her directness and simplicity, she would never really consider the consequences. It?s due to this that, I believe, that she started claiming to be starting an invasion against the surface world ? it?s just simple overexcitement and drunkenness. After all, who hasn?t made outrageous claims and done stupid things whilst drunk?


*It probably went something like this:

Kanako (waving a bar of chocolate): Hey, hell-crow, look, chocolate!
Utsuho (eyes wide): Wow, chocolate!

Utsuho attempts to grab the bar of chocolate, only for Kanako to hold it just out of her reach

Kanako (as if talking to a baby): Do you want the chocolate, girl? Do you want the chocolate?
Utsuho (hopping up and down): Yes! Chocolate!

Kanako takes out a suspicious package.

Kanako: Here, take this, and you?ll get the chocolate!
Utsuho Yay! Chocolate!

One nuclear fireball later, Utsuho is glowing with Cherenkov radiation.

Utsuho (through mouthfuls of chocolate): Mm, chocolate.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Prody on October 13, 2009, 12:11:36 PM
CHOCOLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE.

Yea, Nuclear Fusion is full of remix potential as well. Check out all the MADs on Niconico Douga for enjoyable remixes.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on October 13, 2009, 12:30:20 PM
CHOCOLATEEEE
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q25/LazyMexican831/lol/CHOCOLATE.jpg)
Anyways, I wonder if the song also shows how... short is Okuu's memory (In Sanae's UNL Route, she forgets what she was doing right in the middle of the fight).
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 13, 2009, 02:00:43 PM
CHOCOLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE.

Yea, Nuclear Fusion is full of remix potential as well. Check out all the MADs on Niconico Douga for enjoyable remixes.

Interesting you should say that, as I've been trawling through plenty of Nuclear Fusion remixes on Youtube, and actually only liked one out of all of 'em. For me, hardly anybody really "gets it", and they always tend to miss something that I like that I would never cut from it. I'm really fickle when it comes to Nuclear Fusion, as I find it pretty much perfect as is.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Prody on October 13, 2009, 02:55:30 PM
Actually, Nuclear Fusion's melody in the climax stands out to me very much. Probably the most epic song I've heard in the series.

For the remixes, there are more innovative ones like
Okuu's Gym
and remixes (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm4760738) like (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brwK7_f7Yaw) this. (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm5715503)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Hieda no Aya on October 13, 2009, 05:13:32 PM
I'll have a look at those, but in my spare time. Unless people really want me to, I won't analyse ZUN's side albums which do not relate to characters.
Oh, yeah, I didn't expect analysis. It's just good music is all. :D Though if I were cruel I guess I could work out themes for all the non-game characters (there are a couple who clearly have them) and try to make you do those. But I'm not.

Good ol' Nuclear Fusion. I always loved the whole atmosphere of Utsuho's boss fight; it's so stylish, and the style in question is the style of awesome. It's like your last and greatest reward for making it through the game. (Well, until I get good enough for extra stages, I suppose.)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 13, 2009, 07:20:49 PM
Oh, yeah, I didn't expect analysis. It's just good music is all. :D Though if I were cruel I guess I could work out themes for all the non-game characters (there are a couple who clearly have them) and try to make you do those. But I'm not.

I assume you're talking about characters like the Watatsuki sisters and Reisen mark 2. So you know what? You're on. This sounds like it could be a good source for discussion. But only the proper, canonical ones, mind you.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 13, 2009, 10:35:55 PM
Speaking of canonical characters, surely Akyu and Rinnosuke need themes.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Hieda no Aya on October 13, 2009, 11:09:51 PM
Haha, maybe so. ZUN usualy includes a music CD of two or three tracks with each of his books, volume manga releases, etc, so there's material, and some of the songs are titled indicatively enough to associate with characters, but beyond that it'd be guesswork, and who knows if that's even supposed to be the point with them? (If there's any meaning to the existence of Sunnymilk's Scarlet Mist Incident, it can only be alarming.) Then there's oddities like his decision to do PMiSS and SSiB's music in old-fashioned FM synth, and I'm not sure there are enough songs for everyone in SSiB anyway, although I guess there's one more volume due so maybe there'll be more music...

Er, anyway, all that said, if you wanna, I'll give it a shot. Along with anyone else who wants to help with that. But after you've gotten through the rest of this project. ;)

Not-Edit: Recon, sadly, CoLA has yet to get any music that I know of, so I don't think Kourin gets a theme, even though he totally DOES deserve one. For Akyuu, the PMiSS CD has a "Child of Are", which is probably a pretty reasonable bet for her.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 13, 2009, 11:22:02 PM
Maybe Kourin will get a theme after all the mid-bosses (barring Tewi) get theirs.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on October 14, 2009, 12:14:31 AM
Sunnymilk's Scarlet Mist Incident
...
That song is a remix of UNOwen, right?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Hieda no Aya on October 14, 2009, 02:53:02 AM
U.N. Owen and Sunny Rutile Flection (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUapFzEvkX0) or whatever the heck that title's supposed to be, which comes from one of the earlier three fairies releases. Yeah.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 14, 2009, 02:02:16 PM
Final entry for SA, after which I'll take a few days' break from my analyses, as doing these is actually pretty demanding. This will be a good time for anyone to bring up things like remixes and off-character ZUN works and discuss them - I'm certainly willing to do so.

Koishi Komeiji - Hartmann's Youkai Girl

I feel a terrifying intelligence in this piece. A kind of immense wisdom that comes with being worldly and experienced, the kind that naturally elevates its possessor above the listener, who can only marvel at the thoughts that cross the mind of this person. Furthermore, the amount of force - less outward power but more intensity - behind the music in all but one section hints at someone who will not stop until they have reached their objective, ignoring pain and injury, their own or that of others.

The first two motifs that we hear, first one coming in right at the start, the second one at 0:20, serve the same purpose in the piece - powerful, forceful non-melodies that break down the listener's perceptions and expectations, softening them up for whatever Koishi wants to bring onto them next. The first segment is prominent for its highly broken rhythm, and starting off on something like this is bound to immediately impress on the listener that something is not right. It is a segment that establishes that Koishi is in control of the listener, and the listener has nothing on her - there's no real melody to follow, no rhythm to rely on, so the listener is put on the defensive immediately. To consolidate this, trumpet chords come in at a fast tempo (around 0:10), loud and high-pitched to draw attention to themselves; however these trumpets tend to skip about violently, missing strong beats, sometimes almost disappearing in the accompaniment due to an uncharacteristically low pitch, other times emphasizing with high pitch completely illogical notes - once again the listener has nothing to really rely on and gets pushed back into a corner by the oppressive noise that the piece is putting out. It is as if Koishi is violently stripping away the listener's psychological defenses.

The second motif seems to push even deeper, each set of three notes methodically, clinically changing position one half-tone at a time, as if always moving for a better grip on the psyche, whilst keeping up the force inherent in the instrumentation, giving the impression that this is far from a gentle investigation, but instead a brutal and merciless analysis of everything the victim has to hide.

These motifs keep repeating, each one getting at least one more iteration to show that this is a slow and painful process for everyone involved. No shortcuts are taken or breaks made - there is only Koishi's dead-set determination and stubborn willpower. Then the third section starts. All of the intensity is gone, all the merciless violence and force have been replaced by a gentle melody. There is almost no accompaniment for the first part of the third motif, only a guitar occasionally plucking a chord here or there. The feeling is that of a great relief, as if all the pressure that's been pent up has finally been released, and a short state of simpleness, almost Nirvana has been achieved. Quickly, however, layers are added, a bit of extra force is added to the melody that stays as a sort of guiding beacon for a confused and disoriented listener.

I have a very specific image that has formed by now. Koishi's power is "manipulation of the subconscious". In the real world, this is done by psychiatric approaches and gentle prodding of the patient. Koishi, it seems, has super-psychiatry abilities, and uses them to blast away with extreme prejudice the usual complexes and layers of self-doubt that often obscure true psychological issues. Once she has done so, she can get at the exposed psyche and begin with the healing process, forcefully, but methodically. It's like getting teeth drilled to cure a toothache - it'll hurt like hell before they get to the source of the problem, but afterward the relief will be palpable.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 14, 2009, 05:18:28 PM
Uh, Koishi's theme. This was the first theme I had to listen to, while reading the analysis. Also, Koishi is always the one character at the bottom when I do a Touhou Sorting. It's not that I hate her, no, but I really don't know her. All of the doujins I have didn't have her. And the only Extra Stage I haven't played (besides SoEW's) is Koishi's stage (because of the difficulty of SA). It seems, I get to like music when I'm fighting against someone, and I get to know them; through the music, I get to know them. This never happened with Koishi. And even thought I've listened to the music (what I don't really like, for the same reasons) while reading your analysis, I'm sorry, but I still don't know anything about her.

As for ZUN's other works... rearranged Reincarnation is awesome. (And Ezel-Ash's version, too).
Also, thought it's not ZUN's work, for me, the arrange of "Memory of Forgathering Oriental Dream" on the IaMP OST is the embodiment of Gensokyo itself.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 14, 2009, 06:46:59 PM
Uh, Koishi's theme. This was the first theme I had to listen to, while reading the analysis. Also, Koishi is always the one character at the bottom when I do a Touhou Sorting. It's not that I hate her, no, but I really don't know her. All of the doujins I have didn't have her. And the only Extra Stage I haven't played (besides SoEW's) is Koishi's stage (because of the difficulty of SA). It seems, I get to like music when I'm fighting against someone, and I get to know them; through the music, I get to know them. This never happened with Koishi. And even thought I've listened to the music (what I don't really like, for the same reasons) while reading your analysis, I'm sorry, but I still don't know anything about her.

Honestly, I feel the same. Extra Boss themes tend to be very focused, without the huge expanses of character information that Stage 6 Boss themes almost always have. It's even worse for me when it comes to SA, since Nuclear Fusion is the track of note for me, so Koishi's theme almost feels like an afterthought, which is being really unfair on her. I guess that if I had to summarise what little I get from Koishi is that she is well-versed in intricacies of the human (and human-like) mind, and uses her knowledge to reveal her targets' subconscious to them, probably for a benign goal, considering the relief that is evident in the third motif. Actually her MO is very similar to Satori's - they both come up to people and reveal these people's thoughts to them. Satori does so in a selfish manner, due to her isolation. On the other hand, Koishi does so in a seemingly selfless manner, due to her worldly experience from her wanderings. To put it simply, I see Koishi as a wandering doctor-type, healing ailments of the mind as opposed to those of the body.

Hmm, I wonder if this paragraph should actually be edited into in my actual analysis, since I'd think it kinda helps reveal some of Koishi's motivations. Eh, everyone'll read it anyway.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: VIVItheFujoshi on October 14, 2009, 06:47:21 PM
Maybe Kourin will get a theme after all the mid-bosses (barring Tewi) get theirs.

i see lot of times in fan videos and even games (Touhou Soccer) who Rinnosuke is related with the song "Kid's Festival ~ Innocent Treasures" (who is called too the "ZUN song"...) ...probably because some people see Kourin like an "avatar" of ZUN in Gensokyo...and,that song have "lyrics" (no used) who are similar to a dialogue in CoLA, Rinnosuke thinking about if Gensokyo,and even himself are only an ilusion.Ah, and the name of the song.
(IOSYS used two times "Magic Shop of Raspberry" like a song Kourin related. One for "These Two Wings" (with Marisa) and the new "KORINDOH FINAL BAZAAR"...maybe because for the word "shop" in it. (and that song of ZUN is an unused song no related with nothing but really good...))

Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 14, 2009, 08:14:16 PM
Ah, so that's why there was lyrics in the Winn EWI video of Innocent Treasures! So those are original, huh. So, this means, Innocent Treasures is ZUN's first real song. Hmmm...
Actually I've been planning to listen to ZUN's albums again, while reading the stories about Mary and Renko. Maybe, with the stories, the music will sound more... deep or meaningful.

Btw, actually after reading these analyses, sometimes I've been thinking about what kind of theme I would have. But I couldn't think of anything, because while I'm very sensitive to music (I mean, I can't take my mp3 player to anywhere, because every time I listen to music, I sorta get into a trance, and can't pay attention to anything else, because the music just drift me away from reality), I'm still not a musician.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 14, 2009, 09:02:56 PM
Btw, actually after reading these analyses, sometimes I've been thinking about what kind of theme I would have. But I couldn't think of anything, because while I'm very sensitive to music (I mean, I can't take my mp3 player to anywhere, because every time I listen to music, I sorta get into a trance, and can't pay attention to anything else, because the music just drift me away from reality), I'm still not a musician.

Aah, personal theme music. If you'll allow me to wax philosophical for a bit, I'd say that searching for a single personal theme is ultimately a bit of a fruitless affair. Any given person can have so many different moods and feelings that to truly capture them all you'd need a proper hour-long symphony. After all, every character in Touhou is, despite any three-dimensionality we might have found for them in this thread, mostly a snapshot, their personality describable in a single sentence. This is fine, as they are characters used to tell a story. Since the story isn't about a single specific character, there's only a limited amount of attention that the story can give them, thus there is no real point to fleshing out every aspect of their character.

You, (or anyone else, for that matter) on the other hand are the main character of your own story, with all the attention to character detail that you thus deserve. I would find it surprising if you didn't switch through at least three distinct personas in a single day, depending on your physical condition, your surroundings, the events of the previous day etc, so already you'd require three distinct themes, plus interludes, developments, transitions. Then we add in everything that's occurred to you previously and develop themes for that, and we get an abundance of variety that simply won't fit into one piece.

On the other hand, if you wish to present a musical snapshot of yourself to others, a "describe yourself in one sentence" thing, then that is far easier, but, obviously, gives no more information than a photograph - they'd get only the surface detail, and none of the deeper meaning you might want to get across.

I hope that made sense, I've also often wondered about people's personal theme music. Nowadays I just let whatever music I'm listening to take over my thought process - if I'm listening to gothic metal I get the feeling that I, myself, am in an epic struggle, if it's J-pop then I'm suddenly all colourful and energetic. Now, obviously I can relate to the music on my mp3 player, as that is why it's on there in the first place, so basically my entire music collection is my theme music. I would think that this could apply to everyone else as well, in that the collection of the tracks one favours is the best theme music possible for an individual.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 14, 2009, 11:18:25 PM
@Fightest: I've always thought that the 'breaking, entering and healing' that you described is sort of a natural Koishi thing, sort of like Satori being creepy and Flan blowing stuff up. It isn't her job or her hobby, it's her basic character. By just being around her you immediately start off experiencing all sorts of weird stuff but after everything's over you realize you know yourself better. She may not even be able to keep it from happening but hey, if it makes people easier to talk to I don't think she minds.

ZUN seems to have started a mini-trend of upbeat extra bosses after IN ('mini' depending on whether or not you view Nue as an upbeat boss). They're basically kids playing around and while they may be a bit offended at having missed all the fun they're not the monsters or forces of nature that earlier Ex bosses were presented as (note the 'presented as'. Gensokyo+ [borrowing Fightest's term here] means they aren't really monsters, just presented as terrifying and dangerous). 

Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 14, 2009, 11:31:24 PM
Hmm, interesting. Yeah, it does make sense, as I'm also studying philosophy (and other stuff) at college, and I already made philosophic theories when I was only 10 (hence, why I'm such a theoryfag). Hmm. So if every track I favor is my theme music, that means my theme music is constantly changing. Yet, while it constantly changes, these changes are more slower than for most people and I tend to listen to 6 or 7 tracks for a long a long time before changing them, and I always left the old ones on the player, even thought I won't listen to them, only when I remember them being there, and I only remove them when there's not enough space. But, I still have all my music I had on my harddrives.

So, to analyze that, I'm a person who lives slowly, only biting little from Life, forgetting things slowly, and never forgetting anything at the end. I like both slow and fast music, to symbolize that I have two distinct side, two personalities, and I somehow like when a music have a slow and a fast side, too, creating a harmonious third personality. It's just like how I love Patchy and Sanae, but I associate with Alice the most; yet I don't love her, because I don't love myself, I just only like myself, yet I love my two sides.
The variety of the genres I love (aka I love what I love, I don't mind what genre), means that I'm open minded. However, I mostly like music what common people around me don't like (j-music, folk and irish music, etc.), what symbolizes how I'm different from the common people.

Wow! I'm impressed! Analyzing music what people like can really teach you their personalities (or of your own)! I think this should make a great research project in college, when I'll get work like this. I certainly hope so there will be one.   
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Zer0Axiom on October 15, 2009, 06:37:37 AM
I've been trying to read this for a while, and have found that I have forgotten what I was thinking.  It's all a really interesting take, and I'll have to remember to offer more time to look at it all again.

Something that is still fresh in my mind in regard to Parisee:
One aspect that you noted in relation to the latter part of her theme was a perpetuating state of unrest.  This has been readily associated to her jealousy, but what if it was more than self deprecation?  She's an over-jealous youkai that spurs jealousy in others.  The key is the last part.  Those surmounting sensations aren't meant for herself, it's for you.  With this, I would personally place Parisee closer to Yamame and Hina; the get-close-to-at-own-expense group.

On further inspection, isn't that a classification that applies to most, if not all, of the SA cast?  Oh, right, "unwanted by surface" world.  Maybe if I remember, I'll contribute more, but until then, these have been quite entertaining.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 15, 2009, 09:25:31 AM
I've been trying to read this for a while, and have found that I have forgotten what I was thinking.

Always a good start.  ;D

Quote
Something that is still fresh in my mind in regard to Parsee:
One aspect that you noted in relation to the latter part of her theme was a perpetuating state of unrest.  This has been readily associated to her jealousy, but what if it was more than self deprecation?  She's an over-jealous youkai that spurs jealousy in others.  The key is the last part.  Those surmounting sensations aren't meant for herself, it's for you.  With this, I would personally place Parsee closer to Yamame and Hina; the get-close-to-at-own-expense group.

I both agree with and contest this: Parsee's power originated from her own jealousy in the first place, as opposed to Hina's and Yamame's being gathered from ambiance, as it were. Without that feeling constantly feeding her power, she wouldn't have any reason to use the power in the first place. It is not that she inflicts jealousy on others, instead she shares her own.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Zer0Axiom on October 15, 2009, 07:58:37 PM
Empathy would be closer to emotion sharing, right?  If that's so then the initial part is closer to that sensation.  The "sudden" change that follows is the jealousy invading the victim; her power taking effect.  It's no longer shared, it's individualized and, from there, greatly intensified.

She's already in a jealous state.  Having something in front of her only serves to remind her of more things she can be jealous of.  From there, she does what might be expected of a youkai: attack.  Of course, jealousy's greatest influence is when one realizes its there.  What if that was the point?

Her thoughts and whims are marred, even if sincere, to the point that any normal body would breakdown, but she doesn't.  Every little thing reminds her of her feelings, and that's what she needs to carry on.  It isn't until that sensation reaches its pinnacle that it bursts, and then... 

I think I'm still missing something.  Oh well, maybe next time.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 18, 2009, 09:12:13 AM
I'm back from my break and starting with Undefined Fantastic Object.

I find that ZUN started with his adventurous-ness with SA stage themes, really got his bearings there and decided to inject this into UFO's boss themes. Of course, they're still unmistakably his style, but many of the boss themes in UFO are just so different from what we're used to hearing, in some way or another. In each analysis I'll try to comment on why I feel that particular track is different, if I don't forget.


Nazrin - A Tiny, Tiny, Clever Commander

For a stage 1 theme, Commander is very extensive. It has two distinct sections, an involved main melody and an unusually pensive introduction/interlude, some new instrumentation that we haven't heard before, instrumental variation of the main theme, and, finally, a very clever connection that leads from the second part back into the first. All this in the space of a minute-and-a-half. This high density of stuff is what makes this theme different for me.

In general, the Nazrin I get from this piece is, well, exactly what the title says. She's thoughtful, introspective, appropriately intense, yet carefully-paced - all good properties for someone in charge of an operation. Of course, I'll explain where I got all this from.

The first section serves as an introduction as well as an interlude that serves as a halfway point for the piece. It's characterised by sequential arpeggioes in a blazing tempo and a really weird rhythm. This part is mostly in major, although the arpeggioes eventually start using diminished notes - usually diminished chords tend to unsettle the listener, but by breaking them up instead the music moves the focus off a comfortable harmony and into a more abstract study, a whitewash of noise that sets the stage for the melody proper. The other aspect of this section is the rhythm, which technically is in 6/8 time, but altered into 3/4 by accents being placed on every second note instead of every third, sounding as if the accents are inappropriately-placed.
At the start of this non-melodic section, the train of thought that I feel it represents does not go anywhere - Nazrin is unsure of where to go from here, does not know how to proceed, so, without losing a beat, she moves out of the box, as it were, hoping to find a non-standard solution. It is this natural movement into abstract thinking that makes me think that Nazrin is used to this sort of thing, making her an experienced quick-thinker.

The second section is the main and only melody in the piece. A new instrumental introduction (I'm pretty sure that it's new, anyway) is the single violin playing the quick, flighty melody at a high pitch. Going back to the time signature, the melody is in 3/4, the time signature that often suggests elegance and careful pacing. The violin's contribution to this is to provide a clear melody with a good amount of force, without the trumpet's intensity - all in all the two aspects combine to elicit the feeling of a carefully-calculated and elegant approach to problems. These can only apply, of course, if the problem-solver in question is experienced in their job, again presenting Nazrin as someone who has been doing what she is for a long time, now able to comfortably add their own unique touch to their problem-solving approach.

The melody itself is unusually long for a stage 1 boss, 2x8 bars, which I probably don't even need to say demonstrates a depth of character to Nazrin. She has a positive outlook on life, considering the entire melody is in major - there is no grimness in her concerning her duty.

Every once in a while she will pause to think, evidenced by the return of the introduction theme. She responds to her own thoughts, willing to try out new approaches, and the melody's instrumentation changes to the softer piano, perhaps as Nazrin decides to give the more subtle approach to her issues a fair chance. Finally, she is capable of quick self-analysis, as demonstrated by the main melody's careful introduction of arpeggioes in the accompaniment towards the second set of 8 bars which then flawlessly proceed into the introduction/interlude part - she examines her actions even as she carries them out, this second nature of hers preventing her from getting carried away, and always remaining in full control of the situation.

I hope this shows why and how I see Nazrin's character as presented. Considering what I've said, she truly seems to be worthy of the militaristic title "Commander".
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 19, 2009, 11:56:49 AM
Aww, I'd have thought Nazrin would be quite popular. She's cute and everything! Speaking of characters I reckon are quite popular...

Kogasa Tatara - Beware the Umbrella Left There Forever

Say what you will about Kogasa?s propensity and ability to surprise others, her theme certainly came out of left field for me when I played UFO for the first time, untranslated. By this point, I was used to the typical ZUN-type boss battle themes pre-stage 4-ish: they?re mostly light things, certainly worthy of narrative merit for some property or other, like Deaf to All But the Song?s implied cruelty or Green-Eyed Jealousy?s? jealousy. Then suddenly I hear the gothic as hell motifs in Beware the Umbrella, and the first thought that came to mind was ?holy crap, who is this character to have such a boss theme?s boss theme?? And that was the key point ? Beware the Umbrella sounds like a true, proper boss theme that is so out-of-place in the generally light world of Touhou stage 2. This is certainly intentional, and I believe it fits Kogasa extremely well.

The piece consists of two sections proper, with the occasional teasing interlude, and I?ll focus mostly on the first theme, the one that, to me, gives Beware the Umbrella all its flavour.

The centerpieces of the first section are the repeating dominant-tonic cadences, the cadences of the feeling of a satisfying conclusion, constantly drummed into the listener?s mind. The tonic in this section is a minor, and the major dominant segueing into the minor tonic creates that feeling of absolute, grim finality. A large contributor to this feeling is this section?s large amount of pure chords, adding a sense of power to the finality, as if the character the listener is facing is the one capable and willing to put a final stop to everything. This is end-of-the-world stuff here. Considering that the listener isn?t expecting the end of the world until stage 6, this then would be a proper surprise to them.

I mentioned the word ?gothic? a few paragraphs back. I?m using the word intentionally ? the compositional methods used above easily date back to Mozart and Beethoven?s time, very likely further than that. That Kogasa would use such approaches comfortably suggests a great old-fashioned-ness in her (safe assumption, this is canonically in her dialogues as well).

Before I go on to the second section, I?ll mention the interlude that plays during the first one, the one where it seems as if the music is headed into a melodic stage but just starts looping in a single arpeggio, over and over again, until the listener (or, at least, me) is foaming at the mouth, willing to do anything just as long as it goes somewhere. And then it doesn?t, it just flashes back to the dominant-tonic cadences again for a while. I would glean from this that Kogasa has an endearingly infuriating (or just infuriating, YMMV) property of rambling, getting stuck on something for unreasonable lengths of time. This ties in to her old-fashioned-ness, this tendency of hers prohibiting her from getting on with it, as it were, from catching up with the times.

After all this, the actual melody in the second section seems almost like an afterthought. Clearly it?s Kogasa?s actual nature ? the simple, short melody in a major key with long, lyrical notes suggest a bit of a dreamer, a simple romantic without many complicated goals in life aside from her constant search to surprise people. If we pull back, we can see this same simplicity in the first section as well ? there?s no complex harmonic structures, only a few simple, albeit very effective in what they do, short, classical cadences. I probably don?t need to mention that it?s obvious that the entire first section is an act of Kogasa?s, a booming threat that has seemed to work in surprising people for a long time, so she never bothered with considering ?modern? sensibilities, especially considering that she doesn?t seem to really ?get? the concept of change.

Considering everything I?ve said above, as well as her sudden appearance in the Extra stage, I sometimes wonder if Kogasa is at least partially aware of the fourth wall. There?s a lot of metagaming in her, starting with really unusual music to surprise the player beyond the character, to doing the same by appearing in the Extra stage.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 19, 2009, 01:37:00 PM
I think my interpretation differs from yours for once. I'm having trouble seeing any menace at all in Kogasa's theme. It may sound like a boss theme from outside Touhou but within the series it lacks the trumpets and electrics that ZUN uses to denote SERIOUS BUSINESS characters. Perhaps we can say that she tries to be surprising and/or threatening but between her adorable appearance and the eggplant umbrella she couldn't scare a mouse if she caught it alone on a dark night.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 19, 2009, 01:41:22 PM
I think my interpretation differs from yours for once. I'm having trouble seeing any menace at all in Kogasa's theme. It may sound like a boss theme from outside Touhou but within the series it lacks the trumpets and electrics that ZUN uses to denote SERIOUS BUSINESS characters. Perhaps we can say that she tries to be surprising and/or threatening but between her adorable appearance and the eggplant umbrella she couldn't scare a mouse if she caught it alone on a dark night.

I find that umbrella quite creepy, actually. One eye, red-and-purple colour scheme, a toothy gash for a mouth? Brr. Anyway, I feel that the organ-like main instrument does a pretty good job of instilling menace, and the lack of electrics and trumpets feels the old-school vibe, but this is certainly up to the listener.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 19, 2009, 02:05:48 PM
It could be argued that the organ undertones weren't actually meant to be undertones but they just can't rise above all the lighter instruments playing a generally more upbeat theme. Kogasa knows she's supposed to scare people so she does things that are traditionally scary- youkai things, karakasa things, things that sound creepy on paper or if described second hand- but her cuteness and her cheerfulness come out too strongly no matter what she does. Maybe she giggles as she says her "*~Urameshiya~*" or she squeals with delight when she does manage to scare someone, I dunno. The player characters certainly weren't the least bit scared even when she showed up in the extra.   

She might rectify this shortcoming by showing victims her umbrella before her actual body, and giving more attention to that organ.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 19, 2009, 02:21:37 PM
First, for Nazrin's theme, I found it strange, because it's a theme I don't like originally, but lily-an's arrange is an exception: Somehow, it feels more "right" than the original.

As for Kogasa, her theme was certainly surprising. It was that one theme I liked in the demo, and it has a feeling what I haven't felt since Doll Judgment. Anyway, it Does sound menacing. Probably the organ, as an organ always feel menacing. Of course, it's an old-fashioned menace.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 20, 2009, 03:17:29 PM
Sorry, everyone, no update today, and tomorrow might be a bit of a stretch as well. In the meantime, I present a topic : Heian Alien borrows from several pieces ZUN has already written, amongst them U.N. Owen. There are at least two more others. Discuss.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tengukami on October 20, 2009, 08:34:04 PM
Sorry, everyone, no update today, and tomorrow might be a bit of a stretch as well. In the meantime, I present a topic : Heian Alien borrows from several pieces ZUN has already written, amongst them U.N. Owen. There are at least two more others. Discuss.

This was pretty thoroughly discussed when the full version of UFO was released. You had people on the one hand saying, "Yeah, this sounds a whole lot like UN Owen Was Her", and a few people denying they could hear any similarities at all. I think the similarities are glaringly obvious, personally.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 20, 2009, 09:41:02 PM
Yeah, it's obvious, but I couldn't find the other two. I mean, I know which parts are different from U.N. Owen, but I couldn't find any similarities with other songs (at least with those I can remember right now).
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: bloop on October 20, 2009, 09:55:04 PM
I always thought the change at 1:10 in Heian Alien was somewhat similar to the one at 1:14 in Hartmann's Youkai Girl. I prefer the way the latter does it though; most extra themes manage to have downbeat-ish parts that still keep up the energy of the rest of the song and Heian Alien's feels like it comes to a very uncomfortable screeching halt. Maybe it's just me.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 20, 2009, 10:45:45 PM
Yeah, I realise this has been discussed already, but might as well have completeness in srs musical thread. :V

This is just me, so I could well be wrong, but I hear a degree of Faith is For The Transient People in there. Specifically, the main melody's rhythmic structure closely matches Faith's. The same applies to U.N. Owen and Hartmann's Youkai Girl for other parts, which, I suppose, is why some people claim not to hear UNO in Alien melodically, but it's really there rhythmically.

Why Faith of all things? I admit, it's due to that snake that entwines Nue's trident, which really reminds me of Sanae's snake. It is very in-character for Nue to steal and bastardise others' ideas and appearance, so there's motive and opportunity for her to do so to Sanae. I might be grasping for association where there's none, though. More on this when I get to Heian Alien proper, of course.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 20, 2009, 11:27:41 PM
...now it's not really that surprising that the Sanae X Nue pairing starts to get popular. Of course it's also fueled by SanaeB's Extra Ending where Nue got omochikaeri'd by Sanae.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 20, 2009, 11:29:04 PM
The snake isn't a Kanako reference. The mythical Nue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nue) does have a snake for a tail (not just a snake's tail) but having it coming from her butt would be a bit too indecent (see also Utsuho and her 'third leg').
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 21, 2009, 10:40:41 PM
The snake isn't a Kanako reference. The mythical Nue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nue) does have a snake for a tail (not just a snake's tail) but having it coming from her butt would be a bit too indecent (see also Utsuho and her 'third leg').

If I recall correctly, the Nue is a proper shapeshifter, so having a snake as a tail is a transitory, non-permanent form. The mythical Nue certainly doesn't have scythe-wings. In this case, even if the snake is symbolical, the fact that Nue decides to have such a feature must have a reason. This is certainly debatable, unless there's Word of God on the matter, which I honestly don't know of.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 23, 2009, 02:02:58 PM
Thread not dead!

Ichirin Kumoi ? The Traditional Old Man and the Stylish Girl

It is important to realize that this piece presents two characters, only one of which actually has a speaking role. The other character can only be heard or understood by the first one, and has to rely on their partner to convey what they?re trying to say to the rest of the audience. Those of you who?ve played Katawa Shoujo would be very familiar with such a pairing. Obviously in our case it is Ichirin who?s at the forefront of the pairing, with only her reactions to Unzan to suggest him being at all sentient. Once we consider this, the piece really begins to take shape, the listener finding themselves at the receiving end of a bizarre two-pronged monologue coming from, seemingly, a single person.

The first part of the piece, the first 30 or so seconds, is likely Ichirin herself. Setting the pace with an almost comically upbeat series of chords, this section presents Ichirin as a highly positive, airy girl with some unusual flair to her words and actions. The only instruments in this section are the trumpet and piano, but the piano usually stays in the background to add an ornament here or there ? most likely Unzan making his presence not be forgotten ? so the sound we get is extremely plain and open, hiding nothing from the listener. The slightly out-of-place pomp and flair come from the trumpet?s tendency to dip into the lower pitch where it doesn?t really belong, the sound that it produces becoming a caricature of the dramatic sounds of the naturally low-pitched brass instruments. The sequence then repeats, to me painting Ichirin as someone expressive, talkative, sometimes without reasonable measure, the kind of person with whom it?s occasionally difficult to get in a word edgewise.

A short piano interlude follows, a few calm broken chords here and an arpeggio there, breaking the pace of the section before it. It?s appropriate, then, that I described Unzan?s presence above as being the piano part, because this section presents the image of Ichirin suddenly stopping whatever she was doing and cocking an ear at something only she can hear. Perhaps she is being instructed, chastised, or lectured by Unzan about something, possibly about her attitude or behaviour. This section shows that Ichirin takes Unzan very seriously; dropping everything she was doing to listen to him as soon as she hears his call.

The next section reinforces this, the music becoming far more measured, controlled. The piano is far stronger in its influence on the melody now, the trumpet still loud, but sounding as if it is the piano that?s leading now and the trumpet obediently following along. Somewhat like the relationship of Kanako and Sanae, with Unzan being like the former, he steers Ichirin into what he deems is the correct direction when it seems that she is getting out of hand. Of course, Ichirin is still the main speaker for the pair, so any influence we might see from Unzan is filtered through Ichirin?s energetic personality. Moreover, as with Sanae, Ichirin tends to add her own ornamentation onto the task at hand, once the final objectives have been agreed on. Despite this, Ichirin will complete the task at hand, never swerving off on a tangent to do something of her own. The relationship between Ichirin and Unzan is then very intimate, with a great deal of mutual trust going on between them. I would not go so far as to label it a father-daughter relationship, but Unzan certainly plays the role of a guardian elder to Ichirin?s energetic teenager.

The similarity to Sanae/Kanako never occurred to me before this analysis, so I?d be interested to hear what the rest of you think. There really aren?t many child-guardian relationships in Touhou (which is probably why so many characters are somewhat misanthropic), so I think the few that exist are really special, and deserve some discussion.

On a side note, I?m seriously considering going over Heian Alien before Emotional Skyscraper ~ Cosmic Mind, as the latter, to me, is really the centerpiece of UFO, and I don?t want it to make the former, which has plenty of merit on its own, seem like an afterthought. What do you folks think?


Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 23, 2009, 03:23:14 PM
Your analysis, your order. If you feel like doing Heian Alien first then go ahead. Do it even before Captain Murasa if you really want to. I have no objections.


Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 23, 2009, 03:48:10 PM
Hmm, just as I said some minutes ago on poosh, I see Ichirin as: "I see Ichirin as a "Byakuren-in-training", who is too serious to pull that off. I can see her going all out, then Byakuren scolding her, because she was too serious. Too serious and cool, she may be."
Maybe that's the "Unzan steered" Ichirin?

I agree with you, Cosmic Mind IS the centerpiece of UFO, and one of the most beautiful final boss themes.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on October 24, 2009, 09:16:52 AM
I really enjoy the analysis of Ichirin and Unzan here. I've always viewed their relationship as beneficial to each other. Unzan acts as a mentor and "father-like" figure to Ichirin. Ichirin then travels around helping Unzan do what he cannot by himself.

Also realized something of note for Kogasa. Her theme is made even more surprised by the fact that she is the only character in the entire game that has nothing to do with any of the events. Her theme makes her sound like a menacing character and yet in terms of the game's story, she's just a random passerby.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Helepolis on October 25, 2009, 07:56:28 AM
I am suprised nobody mentions the feeling of "being forgotten" in Kogasa's theme. It is like sensed everywhere inside the song. And menace is a too strong word for her. Imo Menace would probably fit Utsuho's theme better as the start of the song is already hot boiling threat, not Kogasa.

Kogasa's theme starts more like a "BOO!" and then slowly takes shape into more like a semi-dramatic and also playful - airy tune which take turns in the music.  And PrismYoshi said it as well: She is a random passerby, you can read this on ZUN's official translations.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 25, 2009, 12:33:52 PM
This is what I meant in "Old-Fashioned Menace", because that "BOO!" won't surprise the people of this age. Maybe the people of the old.
Hmm, I don't really feel that "being forgotten" feeling, but maybe that feeling equals to my "old-fashioned" feeling, as something old tends to be forgotten.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Moerin on October 25, 2009, 12:55:58 PM
Hmmm... Am I really the only person who hears Dark Side of Fate in Heian Alien?

Also, I think it kind of makes sense for Nue's theme to sound like a mash up of other themes, seeing how she's a chimera and all~
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 25, 2009, 03:31:58 PM
Hmmm... Am I really the only person who hears Dark Side of Fate in Heian Alien?

Aha! You! Speak! Exclamation mark!

Having calmed down, let me explain that. I really looked for Dark Side of Fate in Heian Alien. Why? Because I had a theory - Nue's outfit is comprised from aspects of every character whose theme she's nicked, hence Flandre-like freakish wings and Sanae's snake. That swirl on Nue is very similar to that of Hina, so I really hoped that my theory would hold with that too.

Unfortunately I can't seem to find the similarity, so could you please elucidate where you can hear it, preferably with track times? I cannot express how grateful I'd be, this has been bugging me for so long.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Moerin on October 25, 2009, 03:34:16 PM
It's the intro~  The intro sounds like the intro to DSoF to me.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 25, 2009, 03:56:56 PM
So basically, Nue is made of Flandre, Sanae, Hina and Koishi (the subconscious fear thing), just like her theme. Hmm, interesting~
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 25, 2009, 04:41:31 PM
It's the intro~  The intro sounds like the intro to DSoF to me.

Huh. It really does. No clue how I missed that. Thanks for pointing that out though!

Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 25, 2009, 11:29:54 PM
I always thought that when Nue uses her ability to conceal her true appearance, what she looks like to other people is determined by what they think she looks like.  ZUN probably tried to depict that by taking and modifying elements from a large number of existing songs.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 25, 2009, 11:45:36 PM
I always thought that when Nue uses her ability to conceal her true appearance, what she looks like to other people is determined by what they think she looks like.  ZUN probably tried to depict that by taking and modifying elements from a large number of existing songs.

And most people saw her as Flandre. Clever.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 26, 2009, 07:46:42 AM
Flandre, as far as I'm aware, is one of the most memorable characters out of the ones we're presented. The reason people then saw Nue as Flandre is the (for most people) unmissable UNO-esque motif right at the beginning of the track and certain vaguely Flandre-like aspects of Nue's appearance, so associations were inevitably made. It's very psychological. Also exacerbated by the fact that UNO seems to be the most popular Touhou track (McRoll probably has something to do with it), so it becomes very quickly recognizable - this wouldn't be possible, for example, with Bloom Nobly, Cherry Blossom and giving Nue a butterfly motif.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 26, 2009, 03:09:48 PM
Murasa Minamitsu ? Captain Murasa

Everything about this track points at Murasa being something more than just her human form. From the bold title that proclaims that the track is the character to the singular theme that yet shows so much variety ? the piece portrays Murasa as something elemental, something deeply connected to her surroundings on the deepest, most intimate level. More than anything else, Murasa Minamitsu is a living embodiment of the stormy sea ? a natural force that has claimed many ships and lives, yet completely without malice or aggression. It is simply something that is, impartial and unbiased, treating all equally. To me, this piece shows a shipwreck in progress, the waves beating away at the craft?s hulls until there is only the sea remaining, as if nothing had ever crossed it.

The first 30 or so seconds present the central theme in Captain Murasa ? those characteristic broken chords that keep going up and down, presenting an excellent image of something rocking up and down on violent waves, thunder and rain filling the rest of the scene with rock guitar and piano respectively. The tempo is quick, as usual, presenting an unforgiving environment ? a storm, clearly. There is a distinct lack of meaningful tonality in the chords ? it?s not immediately possible to tell if they?re major or minor, presenting a striking impartiality, showing the listener that the storm is neither rejoicing, mourning, or feeling anything, really, about this event. As I said above, this is something that simply happens. Tying that to Murasa herself, she is impartial and elemental. Saying that she lives her job is an oversimplification ? she is her job, and thus she shares many qualities with a sea at storm ? grand, powerful and potentially overwhelming, yet also rewarding to those who show great effort and punishing those who make mistakes or do not take their job seriously.

The next 25 or so seconds are an interlude, which crops up again every once in a while, and is the only time that we don?t hear those rolling-wave broken chords. This section pulls back, zooms out, as it were, from the shipwreck in progress, to give the listener a view into the distance, rain lashing down around them. This section serves to remind the real lack of importance of the shipwreck happening far down below compared to the vast expanse all around. Moreover, from this distance, we cease to see the crashing waves, and the sea becomes a grey rippling blur, making it impossible to make out its features. Thus like this section, Murasa is featureless and distant when one does not directly interact with her. She does not care for things that do not concern her directly, or do not enter her jurisdiction. Of course, in exchange, she is stalwartly and unflinchingly attentive to things that do.

From then on, the piece is full of variation on a really quite simple theme. The rolling-waves theme comes back at least twice more with different emotions attached to it each time. This is really the final aspect that ties Murasa to the sea and gives her these unique characteristics ? seemingly a featureless expanse, yet actually so full of variety if one really takes the time to take it all in, really observe it for a long, dedicated amount of time. Murasa is somewhat reclusive, really not someone to express everything she feels to the first stranger. She opens up slowly, and does not make friends easily.

As a final thought, I feel that there are a few similarities between Murasa and Letty. Both seem to be elemental embodiments, although only the latter is canonically, and both are presented in a similar manner ? harsh, yet unbiased, with great enthusiasm for what they do, and little interest in anything else.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Nub Slayer on October 26, 2009, 11:30:32 PM

Kogasa Tatara - Beware the Umbrella Left There Forever

...gothic as hell ...

I may know little about music but Kogasa's theme, gothic? I'm not seeing it (or hearing it :V)
Could you elaborate on this?

Since I know nothing about music theory, all the comparisons between characters and their themes just fly over my head, and since you seem (I'm probably dead wrong on this) to use only the music as basis for interpretation I can't even agree or disagree.

Having said that, your analysis are very well done and thorough for being made by listening to music. I can't wait for your analysis on Emotional Skyscraper - Cosmic Mind. The first time I heard that I was 'OMG this is IMO the best theme ever' and that made Byakuren my favorite character. That music has something no other theme has, or maybe they have, I just can't hear it.

(All this can be reduced to: I suck at music and can only say 'this sounds very good' and 'this does not')

Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 27, 2009, 03:58:52 AM
You're thinking of 'gothic' as meaning 'dark and emo'. There's actually more to the term than that although I can't say I know much more myself.

About Murasa, you might want to note that her mythological inspiration doesn't smash boats with fifty foot tidal waves. The kind of ghost she's based on simply sits and scoops water into a ship with a dinky little ladle (which is that wooden thing Murasa carries) until it goes under, and people can't stop the creature because it's a spirit.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 27, 2009, 06:40:08 AM
You're thinking of 'gothic' as meaning 'dark and emo'. There's actually more to the term than that although I can't say I know much more myself.

Yep - I'm using gothic more as a term for a specific period in architecture - some very tall and pointy European cathedrals are built in this style. Those chord progressions in Beware the Umbrella really remind me of certain passages in church music of that period, hence me calling them gothic. Don't tell anyone, but I'm actually using the term somewhat incorrectly.  ;)

Quote
About Murasa, you might want to note that her mythological inspiration doesn't smash boats with fifty foot tidal waves. The kind of ghost she's based on simply sits and scoops water into a ship with a dinky little ladle (which is that wooden thing Murasa carries) until it goes under, and people can't stop the creature because it's a spirit.

Perhaps, but the ZUN-written Murasa's profile (as translated by the Touhou wiki) has such colourful keywords as "capsizing" and "shipwreck". A dinky little ladle pouring in water won't cause a ship to capsize. And anyway, the piece is more of what Murasa is like than what she does. Now, I've kept going on about "elemental" this and "she is her job" that, but, ultimately, the piece is used as a character description of Murasa herself. Any metaphors that I've presented beyond that are simply colourful illustrations.

Quote from: Nub Slayer
you seem (I'm probably dead wrong on this) to use only the music as basis for interpretation

That's the idea, yeah. Although I'm trying since Perfect Cherry Blossom to not so much compare to established characteristics as to actually get something new from each character theme.

Even if you don't know much about music, and this applies to all the other readers of this thread as well, I'm really hoping that my comparisons and analyses will make sense if one listens along to the track with them. Also, do try to explain why you think something "sounds good" or not - you don't have to use musical terms if you're unfamiliar with them, use terms you're familiar with, use as many metaphors and examples as you want. I'm still interested in what everyone else thinks of characters through their themes.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 27, 2009, 11:32:49 AM
The little factoid about the ship sinking ghost was meant as an interesting note, not a critique of your analysis. Giant anchors aren't a part of the original myth, after all.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 27, 2009, 11:54:54 AM
The little factoid about the ship sinking ghost was meant as an interesting note, not a critique of your analysis. Giant anchors aren't a part of the original myth, after all.

Ah, okay. You had a valid point though - I might have portrayed Murasa as slightly more aggressive than she probably is. Speaking of that ladle though, and I'm off-topic here, I'd think that particular myth came into being due to poor shipbuilding and the inevitable little leaks that would spring up all over the place - you plug one up, and another soon appears. Attaching an anthropomorphic manifestation to that phenomenon made it easier for sailors to curse it.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 27, 2009, 12:10:49 PM
Perhaps. That's the general practice in Shinto. If something strange or nasty keeps happening and you can't figure out the cause, create an obake to take the blame.

When people become more able to figure out the cause, though, there's no need for the supernatural being any more and so it 'dies'. Good thing there's a Gensokyo around  ;D
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 27, 2009, 04:38:02 PM
Sorry everyone, no update today. Shou's turning out to be deceptively hard to put into words. I think I have a few good ideas though.

So this message isn't a complete waste of your time, here's a topic: UFO stage themes, especially stage 4 onwards, get exceedingly weird, yet their respective boss themes are quite classic ZUN fare. I can think of a few reasons why, but I'd like to see what everyone else thinks.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 27, 2009, 05:08:30 PM
ZUN actually had an explanation for this one. He wanted to make stage themes that sound like stage themes and not alternate character themes.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 27, 2009, 07:17:52 PM
ZUN actually had an explanation for this one. He wanted to make stage themes that sound like stage themes and not alternate character themes.

Aww, the man doesn't have enough confidence in himself. I'm having trouble remembering a stage theme that has an "alternate character theme" vibe. Maybe Doll Maker of Bucuresti.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Seian Verian on October 27, 2009, 07:23:04 PM
Aww, the man doesn't have enough confidence in himself. I'm having trouble remembering a stage theme that has an "alternate character theme" vibe. Maybe Doll Maker of Bucuresti.

Personally, I always thought that Maid and the Pocket Watch of Blood felt like an alternate character theme for Sakuya.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 28, 2009, 02:02:29 AM
There are a lot of stage themes that fans take as character themes. Kagome-Kagome is often offered as Tewi's character theme over Lord Usa's Elemental Flag. Extend Ash is seen as reflective of Mokou's character rather than a lead-up to the battle with her. Voyage 1969 is sometimes considered Eirin's other theme, etc.

Then there's the infamous 'Demystify Feast is Remilia's theme'. A bit unrelated since it's not a ZUN piece but it's the same issue.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on October 28, 2009, 03:21:30 AM
A bit unrelated since it's not a ZUN piece but it's the same issue.
Actually it is. ZUN did Demistify Feast, Night Falls and Onigashima in the Fairyland for IaMP. I think.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 28, 2009, 05:03:31 AM
Eh? Oops. I should have checked the wiki before posting. Thanks for the correction.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 28, 2009, 10:24:39 AM
I thought that the reason why ZUN made really approachable character themes is the same reason Utsuho doesn't have a proper third leg - he wants his characters to be generally pretty and sympathetic, and a weird theme just knocks that askew. Now, sure, a niche group will love that character all the more, but most would be pushed away.

Also, onwards!

Shou Toramaru ? The Tiger-Patterned Vaisravana

I?ve said multiple times that a track that keeps repeating a certain motif to the exclusion of everything else signifies that something is not entirely right, psychologically, with the theme?s associated character. After all, a dogged perseverance towards one goal and one goal only, or the constant repetition of a mantra are not entirely healthy traits in humans. This has held true so far, and I?ve been able to, at least to me, explain these psychological issues to a satisfactory degree whilst having these characters remain human. With Shou, I believe, the case is somewhat different. Where such qualities may seem unhealthy in humans, they are certainly observable in animals, and what Vaisravana does a great job to me is portray Shou as something primal and animalistic (which I personally think is very cool, by the way). Despite her human form, Shou is, first and foremost, a tiger youkai, bringing with her a simple view on life and a straightforward, direct attitude to friends and enemies.

The central motif of the piece, or, rather, the most recognizable and commonly-repeated part of the melody, is the unmissable 4-bar set of chords, some of them diminished (which is followed by another motif, but I?ll get onto that later). Moreover, each part of the motif involves the chord progression going up, creating a sense of anticipation and of some sort of buildup. This motif then works well at creating a sense of menace, which is then given a unique flavour by the rock guitar that always accompanies it ? the instrument brings a clear growl that just drips with animalistic imagery that changes a very simple set of chords into something with character. The motif just past these chords seems almost like an afterthought, despite the powerful chords that continue from the previous one, simply because the melodic line moves generally downwards, losing all the tension that had accumulated previously. Moreover, the diminished chords are gone in favour of simple major chords, comfortable-sounding harmonies that put the listener at ease. The combination of increased tension and subsequent relaxation, repeated over and over, with different instruments and timbres, gives me the image of a pacing hunter, guarding something, growling at shadows, ready to strike something that never actually appears.

After a few iterations the track moves into a transition segment that only serves to explain the power in simplicity ? the segment is no more than four chords, in a classic cadence. Each one is emphasized by every instrument, so the entire segment presents a powerful declaration of intent, yet with no musical trickery and only the most direct approach.

The second part presents a proper melodic line, short though it may be. The melody takes full advantage of the trumpet here, presenting long, confident notes, as opposed to the usual fast-paced passages that we usually get. Thus we get a powerful dignity from this passage, a sense of pride that goes beyond Shou?s animalistic nature, one that can be recognized no matter who or what you are.

Now, I?ve looked at the profile ZUN wrote for Shou, and I?m afraid I?ll start repeating both him and myself when I say that Shou is not a complicated person, much in the same way that a tiger clearly shows what it?s feeling at a given moment. She doesn?t project what she feels onto others like, say, Aya, she simply, well, is easy to read. Even more than that, she can also be described as predictable, in the best way, of course ? you slight her and she will retaliate, you respect her, and she will extend a fiercely devoted friendship; she is not one to develop complicated relationship politics. This, of course, makes her a great devotee to an ideal, or a guardian, both of which she is.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on October 28, 2009, 12:04:49 PM
Excellent analysis as usual Fightest. I enjoy this image of Shou. She's a serious guardian and while her conversations in UFO make her sound a bit sophisticated, her duty and behaviors are still the same.

As for stage themes being alternate character themes, Heartfelt Fancy immediately jumps out at me for Satori.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 28, 2009, 06:41:02 PM
I note that you haven't said anything about Shou's role as an avatar or representation of Vaisravana. Perhaps being a mere copy set up by Byakuren means she doesn't have the divine power or grand instrumentation of a real deity but I'd like to see your take on how that aspect of her character connects with the theme.

I personally feel that the intro sounds vaguely devotional or religious, sort of like the instrumentation one might hear at a Tibetan monastery, not that it takes anything away from her tiger-like nature as you've so eloquently described. The full effect can probably only be obtained if you see her sprout her infamous curved lasers as the theme plays. During the battle she looks more like a traditional deity than Kanako ever did.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 28, 2009, 10:33:49 PM
I note that you haven't said anything about Shou's role as an avatar or representation of Vaisravana.

Is she? I thought she was just a follower of the religious creed, and the Vaisravana's power came from the pagoda. If she is, then that trumpet segment, the one that plays those slow, long notes, is the one to bring up here, as well as those occasional 'vocal' segments - both can be evidence of divine investment or glory.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 29, 2009, 03:59:42 PM
Once again, no update today, and my apologies. In preparation for one of the upcoming themes, then, comes the following topic: many feel that Emotional Skyscraper ~ Cosmic Mind is ZUN's greatest work. If you're one of these people, why do you feel so? Please explain in whatever terms you are most comfortable with. If you're having trouble getting past "it just sounds good" - it sounds good because it instills certain emotions in you. Which?

This will be on the test.  :V
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on October 29, 2009, 04:17:30 PM
Emotional Skyscraper is just what the name says, emotional. It is written so well that you can feel Byakuren's hopes and desires, you can hear her desperation. The majority of the notes have are held for a long time and are spaced in such a way to give a feeling of grand majesty, a feeling of someone with with very high ideals. It's almost to the point that it sounds like something holy.

The fact that a song can capture such a giant spectrum of a character's emotions and ideals shows how excellently written the song is. This is why I think that Emotional Skyscraper is ZUN's greatest work thus far.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Helepolis on October 29, 2009, 04:29:41 PM
Emotional Skyscraper is not ZUN's best work. I am not going to jump the fan bandwagon for that. The piece is good, meaning it fits the and also fits the theme of a final boss in the game. Aside from that it is NOWHERE near ZUN's best work (IMO).

And Emotional skyscraper being 'emotional'. You might want to define 'emotions' here as emotions can take many shapes, and is not always dramatic or melodrama emotions.

The song speaks of freedom. For me the beginning of the song speaks: " Ah , freedom at last after so many years "  and exactly at that moment the piano kicks in to start the first melody part.

Remember that song names not always have relation directly to the character or their desires. You might want to go research Youmu's song for example. Me and Herasy had a nice discussion about it on IRC when we discovered Youmu's theme is not about Youmu at all. (goes pages back to read what Fightest had written. Curious now )

Edit: Fightest was close with Youmu's theme. But her theme does not present her loyality or defensive stance against intruders. The music does, the title does not. And this is why I love ZUN's work.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 29, 2009, 07:24:00 PM
And Emotional skyscraper being 'emotional'. You might want to define 'emotions' here as emotions can take many shapes, and is not always dramatic or melodrama emotions.

I used 'emotions' as a broad term intentionally - a piece that does not elicit any emotion at all for a specific person has no meaning to that person, and thus is unlikely to 'sound good'. I'll narrow down my original statement, however, to 'positive emotions'.

Quote
Remember that song names not always have relation directly to the character or their desires. You might want to go research Youmu's song for example. Me and Herasy had a nice discussion about it on IRC when we discovered Youmu's theme is not about Youmu at all.

Normally, I'd completely agree with you. However, UFO specifically has boss theme titles that very clearly are related to their character - Beware the Umbrella, Traditional Old Man and Stylish Girl are already good examples before I bring in Captain Murasa. Hence, I believe that relating the title of Emotional Skyscraper is, in this case, a valid argument.

Also, could you elucidate that bit on Youmu? I'm curious as to what you discovered.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 30, 2009, 02:04:35 AM
Emotional Skyscraper is not ZUN's best work. I am not going to jump the fan bandwagon for that.

I don't think there was ever such a bandwagon. UFO's themes on a whole have been quite divisive.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 31, 2009, 01:00:02 PM
I?ve decided to break continuity, as I?ve mentioned earlier. Emotional Skyscraper is the longest of the final boss tracks, and thus is filled with proportionally more stuff. Therefore, I?ll leave it for last.

Nue Houjuu ? Heian Alien

It is canonical that Nue is a shapeshifter, and seems to use this to her advantage when facing friends and enemies alike (though, at the time of UFO, she probably doesn?t have any friends as such). Thus, the form we see of her is not her true form, and it would be best to approach her theme in the same way ? what we hear immediately is not the true Nue, but a form she assumes to confuse the viewer/listener. This much we know already though, as we have discussed upthread ? Heian Alien is a complex mishmash of Dark Side of Fate, Hartmann?s Youkai Girl, Faith is For The Transient People and U.N. Owen Was Her. Of course, these themes are not copied wholesale, but altered, modified, bastardized to fulfill a certain objective, or due to inability to copy perfectly, or the unwillingness to do so (it?s too early to tell which at the moment) ? and through this I feel we can start to glimpse the true Nue.

Before I go on any further, I?ll bring up Gensokyo?s other shapeshifter: Ran. As presented by my analysis, Ran is a psychological shapeshifter, never showing her true nature to others, as opposed to a manufactured behaviour. Ran had a specific tell about her, a signal of some sort to indicate that what we?re seeing is not the real Ran. Nue also has such a tell, but it?s even more important in her case ? the bell-chimes that are heard throughout the entire piece, supporting a melody here, an accompaniment there, adding some atmosphere everywhere else. The bell-chimes are the unique aspect of the piece, the one instrument and sound that stands apart as a personal addition to copied and altered material. This says something about Nue and her nature as a shapeshifter, something I?d like to present a few thoughts on below:

To reiterate myself, Nue?s very nature is of the shapeshifter. Not to bring Jungian archetypes into the picture, Nue immediately has a reduced sense of self ? after all, ?I think, therefore I am? only goes so far, having a unique, inviolable body which one can call ?me? is important as well. Nue does not have the latter, and can only rely on her spiritual self to provide herself with a sense of identity. She clearly realizes the potential existential pitfalls present if she neglects to assert her ?I? whilst going around taking others? forms, so she does so by adding extremely obvious personal features onto her forms, as shown by those bell-chimes. The sound they create is very characteristically metallic, very prominently high-pitched with a long, clean echo, which gives me a feel of some cosmic presence, one that feels at home in a vast emptiness, knowing and known to none. On a more personal scale, that makes Nue very distant, almost transcendentally so ? she is the kind of person to space out in the middle of a crowd, paying no heed to the world around her. She certainly would have a way of thinking that many would consider odd, and might even seem slightly autistic to those unfamiliar with her physical nature.

Having said that, the nature of the themes she copies also shed light on Nue?s character. Specifically, the two main parts are UNO ver. 2 and Faith ver. 2 (note: I?m calling the latter that for ease of reference, its similarity to Faith is arguable, but I?m sure it?s there). The Dark Side of Fate and Hartmann?s references are flavourful, but have less relevance due to their brevity.

I don?t need to mention the huge contrast between UNOv2 and Faithv2, one being harsh and oppressive, the other melodic and wistful. Clearly these are representations of two different emotional states, which, considering my statements on Nue?s nature as a shapeshifter and the reduced significance of her physically-established ?I?, as well as her canonical power, brings me onto the following thought: Nue?s very body expresses her emotional state at any given moment, and actively changes when her mood changes. Of course, Nue?s ability is to warp perception of another person to see what they want to see means it?s not Nue doing the real-time shapeshifting, but rather the mind of the observer perceiving Nue changing form.

I would like to emphasise that last sentence. Nue?s forms are all somehow related to things the viewer/listener (and the characters that observe her) have seen/heard before. Now, Nue isn?t a mind-reader, which basically means that all these forms are created by the observer?s subconscious whilst under the influence of Nue?s power. Nue isn?t a shapeshifter in the conventional sense, but, rather, a metaphysical one. Considering her emotional state then, it makes sense that her entire body would change to reflect a change in mood ? one?s perception of a furious person is completely different from the perception of that same person when he is happy, or when he is confused. This might slightly contradict what I?ve said earlier about the bell-chimes, but I feel it still applies ? no matter what she might look like, her own unique personality shines through.

Nue?s moods during UNOv2 and Faithv2 are then quite clear ? during the former she is inexplicably violent and selfish, no doubt her response to feeling threatened by the protagonists. Considering her separation from society up to that point and her own mental state, it is natural for her to lash out at people who make her uncomfortable. On the other hand, Faithv2 reminds us of Faith?s confident melody with a great deal of personal pride, and a desire for personal freedom, aspects that come up when the initial hostility of UNOv2 has died down ? Nue is fiercely independent, most likely not wanting her ?self? being defined by someone else. The, well, awkward transition into this segment reinforces the notion of her being socially different ? she is unused to actually dealing with others, so her emotional state and transitions might be off-putting to others, especially when this comes with a bizarrely-evershifting body.

This considered, neither the viewer nor the protagonists have ever seen the ?true? Nue. The only Nue that we know is an ephemeral personality, albeit a strong and willful one, without a concrete shape we can attach it to.

I really learned something about Nue in this analysis. Those of you reading carefully will see a stream-of-consciousness kind of writing, as the ideas I had just kept popping into my head. I personally really like the idea of Nue being a metaphysical shapeshifter, rather than a ?regular? one.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 31, 2009, 01:59:18 PM
Uh, yeah, but Nue threatens the heroines because they've seen her real form, aka the Nue we saw, so...
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on October 31, 2009, 03:15:38 PM
She does have a 'base' form, so to speak. It's the form she takes when she isn't using her ability and maybe the one she reverts to if she gets knocked out. It's probably her most vulnerable form since her opponents will know where to aim, so she wouldn't really appreciate the heroines seeing it.

It's when she uses her ability that she becomes a projection of her opponents' thoughts. They can't see her true form and they don't know what they're fighting but they may have suspicions or fears which she can then embody.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 31, 2009, 03:37:25 PM
Uh, yeah, but Nue threatens the heroine because they've seen her real form, aka the Nue we saw, so...

Quote from: Recon 5
She does have a 'base' form, so to speak. It's the form she takes when she isn't using her ability and maybe the one she reverts to if she gets knocked out.

Mm, these are good points. However, I'm not really convinced that the girl-with-scythe-wing form really is her 'true' form - she is entirely capable of using her power during that fight, so who's to say that even that form isn't an illusion? After all, we have discussed upthread that that picture is a mishmash of features from other characters, and there's no reason for those features to be present on a 'core' form.

[edit] To actually relate to the point - I maintain that we, the player/audience, have not seen Nue's true form. The protagonists may have, and I'll concede this point, but engine limitations means we only get girl-with-scythe-wings, which I do not believe is her true form.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on October 31, 2009, 04:12:58 PM
Well, dunno. Maybe she's Cthulhu.

Anyways I prefer this form of her, because it's cute.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on October 31, 2009, 05:49:42 PM
Well, dunno. Maybe she's Cthulhu.

Anyways I prefer this form of her, because it's cute.

Heh, funny you should say that, I was kinda picturing Nue as a cosmic horror when I was going on about her not having an actual form.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on October 31, 2009, 06:05:22 PM
Heh, funny you should say that, I was kinda picturing Nue as a cosmic horror when I was going on about her not having an actual form.

Ph'nglui Mglw'nafh Nue R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on October 31, 2009, 08:54:18 PM
Ph'nglui Mglw'nafh Nue R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

Yukari is Nyarlathotep. Discuss.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Sen on November 01, 2009, 01:56:44 AM
In preparation for one of the upcoming themes, then, comes the following topic: many feel that Emotional Skyscraper ~ Cosmic Mind is ZUN's greatest work.

I'm one of those people :V

Emotional Skyscraper is, as Prism said, Exactly What It Says On The Tin. It's emotional. In your analysis of Yukari, you spoke about her song overloading you with power. In Kanako's, you talked about how she asserts herself as a greater being throughout the entire thing.

I don't get that from Byakuren's theme. I get a great deal of power emnating from the song, but not in the style of Yukari, or Kanako, or even Yuka. For me, knowing the story behind the game really adds to ES as a whole. The girl's spent her life fighting for youkai-human equality, and got sealed away as a result. She's finally released, and who appears? An insolent girl who wants to seal her back up. This is where the opening of the song comes in.

The opening of the song (the first twelve seconds) sounds, to me, like Byakuren is defying Reimu/Marisa/Sanae. However, she's not doing it violently, or trying to harm or injure them. It's more like a strong, but purely verbal declaration of "No. I will not back down. I will not let you seal me away again, I will fight."

The whole way through, I feel Byakuren's emotions. Her determination to escape her prison, her passion for her cause, her pure want for peace. It all comes together in a beautiful, melodious song that overwhelms you. It doesn't explode out, like Necrofantasia, but it doesn't wash over you either, like Flower Land. It really is difficult to put into words. I'll stop before I end up doing a whole overblown mediocre analysis (that will surely be inferior to yours ;D).

But one feeling I get throughout the entire song is the feeling of "this is it! This is the last battle! It all ends here!" And it is. I remember ZUN saying in his comments about some other song that he wanted to give a feeling of "this is it!" I can't remember the song, but I feel that emotion from Cosmic Mind much more than I do from anything else. It's a final, climactic battle and it suits Byakuren perfectly.

And it's really damn catchy too. ;D
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: VIVItheFujoshi on November 01, 2009, 02:30:08 AM
um...a metaphysical shapeshifter...the same thing who i was thinking...something about the unknown things,created for your own limitations and perceptions,the ambitions,ignorance and fanaticism (who born to the fear to the unknown, the fear can create horrid monsters) when finally confront the Nue and she lost the power,can see the true nature of herself, who was more frightened than you...
(funny, but for some reason all this about ships, space and unknown aliens remind me ALIEN the movie. A ship lost in the space, with a horrible monster who make real problems inside and nobody knows who is it or where are from. And only one survives because finally confronts the monster.)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on November 01, 2009, 08:24:23 AM
The thing about Emotional Skyscraper is that, like Suwa Foughten Field perhaps, I can't find a single bit of combativeness in Byakuren's theme. She seems to be enlightening the heroines about the truth of her beliefs and sharing her vast wisdom rather than trying to beat them into submission like most final bosses do. 'Victory by friendship speech' is the kind of vibe I get from Emotional Skyscraper, not 'Let's see how much of you is left after I'm done' like I got from Nuclear Fusion.

Going back to Nue, I wonder which of her forms Byakuren and the rest of the Makai crew will see. Will it be the one the players are presented or will it be the one the heroines of UFO saw if there is a difference?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Helepolis on November 01, 2009, 09:52:15 AM
Also, could you elucidate that bit on Youmu? I'm curious as to what you discovered.

My apologies for the late reply: Right this is just some brainstorming we did regarding the song. It is not some fact we tried to prove or anything else. We tried to keep it canon as possible regarding the game story and character backgrounds but ofcourse yea, it is questionable as nobody knows the true thing.

Youmu's theme - Hiroari Shoots a Strange Bird ~ Till When?  Here is the log from a month or two ago I think:


?14:37:56? <Herasy> After looking through Youmu's fun facts on the wiki
?14:38:04? <Herasy> Her theme
?14:38:06? <Herasy> Hiroari Shoots A Strange Bird ~ Till When?
?14:38:24? <Herasy> it's related to that story about a warrior shooting down a Nue >_>
?14:38:41? <Helepolis> Wait, does that mean ZUN planned it all along?
?14:38:51? <Herasy> Well further on in the fact...
?14:39:03? <Herasy> "Judging from the story of Perfect Cherry Blossom, the heroine plays the role of Hiroari, Youmu is the Nue, and the corpse is probably Yuyuko Saigyouji. (See also Flandre Scarlet and Yukari Yakumo.) "
?14:39:10? <Herasy> :S
?14:39:13? <Helepolis> What?
?14:39:32? * Helepolis is so terribly confused now
?14:39:34? <Herasy> Hiroari is the name of the warrior
?14:39:39? <Shoukan> Youmu = Nue
?14:39:41? <Shoukan> OH SHIT
?14:39:58? <Herasy> Heres the whole fact
?14:39:59? <Helepolis> Nue as in the mythical beast though :V
?14:40:02? <Herasy> "Her theme song is titled "Hiroari Shoots A Strange Bird ~ Till When?", named after a story in which a warrior named Hiroari slays a youkai known as the Nue. This is a pun on the storyline. The "strange bird" is a Nue, also called the "Itsumaden", since it makes this cry near unmourned corpses, meaning "How long (will this corpse remain unattended)?"
?14:40:04? <Herasy> Judging from the story of Perfect Cherry Blossom, the heroine plays the role of Hiroari, Youmu is the Nue, and the corpse is probably Yuyuko Saigyouji. (See also Flandre Scarlet and Yukari Yakumo.) "
?14:40:34? <Herasy> Youmu's theme song is related to a story about some warrior called Hiroari slaying a Nue (Strange bird)
?14:40:37? <Helepolis> So Youmu finds Yuyuko or something?
?14:40:45? <Helepolis> or did I misunderstood that.
?14:40:47? <Herasy> I find it a little strange considering UFO has a Nue
?14:41:04? <Herasy> Yomu ressurects the tree to find Yuyuko's corpse?
?14:41:35? <Helepolis> Eh wait wasnt that yuyuko's idea?
?14:41:56? <Herasy> It was her idea, but didn't Youmu do all the work?
?14:42:10? <Helepolis> The facts about Yuyuko read she suicided and her body was used to seal the Saigyoji tree for ever
?14:42:30? <Helepolis> So it would never reach full bloom right?
?14:42:30? <Herasy> She never remembered that though
?14:42:43? <Helepolis> But then she asks Youmu to collect the spring.
?14:42:48? <Herasy> But she never remembered Suicide when she came back as a ghost
?14:42:59? <Helepolis> Probably that would the part "Itsumaden"  how long will youmu continue untill she realises it is a corpse?
?14:43:02? <Herasy> She saw the tree and how it would never bloom, and asked Youmu to bloom it
?14:43:20? <Chunk3> There was a really awesome video that made her losing her memory out to be Yukari's doing, "May you never be unhappy again," ;_;
?14:43:34? <Herasy> Some doujin's also did that
?14:43:35? <Helepolis> Chunk3, there was also a doujin
?14:43:41? <Helepolis> bah Herasy beat me to it.
?14:43:46? <Herasy> Also reminds me of UD's rewrite
?14:43:47? <Helepolis> It was a battle between Remilia and Yuyuko.
?14:44:27? <Helepolis> so this leads to what Herasy: that Youmu has been trying and not realising it is useless?
?14:44:29? <Chunk3> NAh, it was just the standard "I have a creepy power so the villagers hate me" thing, wasn't it?
?14:44:40? <Chunk3> Wait... remilia... nvm
?14:44:53? <Herasy> She is a servant though
?14:45:04? <Herasy> It doesn't matter if she thinks it is useless
?14:45:13? <Herasy> If Yuyuko wills her to, she would be happy to do so
?14:45:14? <Helepolis> If Yuyuko is the corpse. Youmu the nue sitting on it calling.
?14:45:17? <Helepolis> who is the hunter then?
?14:45:23? <Herasy> The heroine
?14:45:29? <Helepolis> Reimu , Marisa and Sakuya?
?14:45:34? <Herasy> Yep!
?14:45:52? <Herasy> "the heroine plays the role of Hiroari"
?14:46:05? <Herasy> Interesting how one little song title creates such a large pun on the story
?14:46:27? <TranceHime> o.o
?14:46:34? <Helepolis> Interesting how ZUN is a fucking genius
?14:46:39? <Herasy> Yes, I have always thought that way
?14:46:51? <Helepolis> Do you really think he planned it all ahead?
?14:46:58? <Herasy> I love it when game designers/writers do shit like this
?14:47:04? <Herasy> Umineko does it too ^_^
?14:47:11? <Helepolis> Reminds me of  Oda ( writer of One Piece )  who has the ending planned all along ( rumours say so )
?14:47:51? <Herasy> The main reason this fact caught my eye though was because there is a Nue in UFO
?14:47:56? <Herasy> Still a very interesting fact though
?14:48:07? <Helepolis> But Nue in UFO is introduced very weird.
?14:48:16? <Helepolis> First of all, she was stuck underground.
?14:48:37? <Helepolis> Makes me think how she got there in the first place.
?14:49:03? <Helepolis> How did Murasa's ship got burried there anyway
?14:49:04? <Herasy> Humans sealed her there?
?14:49:15? <CAsercan3> humans sealed it away
?14:49:16? <Herasy> Kinda like all the other Youkai with here
?14:49:21? <Herasy> her*


Story turned then to another branch of Touhou. But basically it comes down to the part where we mentioned Yuyuko is the corpse, Youmu is the nue sitting on it calling for it and the heroines play the role of the warrior.

It just suprised me.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 01, 2009, 10:54:42 AM
Quote
Everyone's comments on Emotional Skyscraper

Interesting. Most of you will see your sentiment echoed when I write my own part, but I'm curious that everyone focuses on the emotional word, when the other three are just as important, I feel.

Quote
re: Hiroari

That's pretty cool, and certainly works within the context of the game. I'm certain there are more such references hidden all over the place.

Quote
Yukari is Nyarlathotep. Discuss.

Nyarlathotep, the Haunter in the Dark, the Crawling Darkness etc. etc. is a malevolent force of entropy. Although he is more manipulative than confrontational, which fits Yukari's image reasonably well, the rest of his aspects are harder to match with hers. I'd have an easier time fitting her to Yog-Sothoth, the Gate and the Key, who is present everywhere and serves as a conduit for all energy in the universe, much like Yukari and her ability to go anywhere, and tendency to take things with her - she is, from what I can recall, the main reason for unusual things appearing in Gensokyo.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on November 01, 2009, 11:03:01 AM
I always thought that the title of Byakuren's theme should be shortened to Cosmic Mind rather than Emotional Skyscraper as used here. I've stuck with the latter term because everyone else is using it but in my head I use Cosmic Mind.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Helepolis on November 01, 2009, 04:53:21 PM
You can take Byakuren's title like this:

Cosmic mind - Wide thinking beyond the unimaginable
Emotional Skyscraper - The higher you get with your ideas, the harder they become.

Then again, from japanese to english a title can lose it's original meaning because of wordplay etc. It is always hard.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 03, 2009, 08:10:49 AM
*sigh*

So I went over my Byakuren entry, and realised it was a rambling trainwreck. So I'm starting over, which means you guys will have to wait a bit longer. I suppose this is a good time to ask then - having finished UFO will see me done with the Windows Touhou games. I have two options to proceed with from there - alternate character themes, or the PC-98 games. I just want to see a show of hands to see who's more interested in what, and I'll go with the more popular option (the second option I'll do as well, of course, but afterwards).
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tengukami on November 03, 2009, 08:15:45 AM
PC-98, if you please.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: VIVItheFujoshi on November 03, 2009, 08:44:12 AM
even who i want the alternate character first,i think who this must need a mayor analysis (some characters no have songs,then must search a song who fit well with their personality...) and need more time. The PC-98 songs need a mayor investigation about the plot...mmm...
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Seian Verian on November 03, 2009, 08:47:15 AM
PC-98. I'd like to hear input on other characters based on their themes before we go more in-depth on existing ones. Though I am looking forward to whenever Casket of Star can be reviewed...
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on November 03, 2009, 08:49:33 AM
I'd suggest getting to know the PC-98 characters as well as or better than you know the Windows characters before attempting a theme analysis. Form your own opinions about them apart from what their themes tell you as you've done with the Windows characters, then do the analyses.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 03, 2009, 08:59:10 AM
I'd suggest getting to know the PC-98 characters as well as or better than you know the Windows characters before attempting a theme analysis. Form your own opinions about them apart from what their themes tell you as you've done with the Windows characters, then do the analyses.

Of course, that's what I've been doing (as far as was reasonably possible) for the characters I was unfamiliar with in the Windows games, after all.

So it seems that PC-98 is getting a unanimous majority. As I mentioned way back when, I'll do them in reverse order, as I somewhat dislike chiptunes and wish to start off with the best of them (and I presume the last PC-98 game has the best chiptunes, but could be wrong) and give up when I can't stand them any more. That means next will be Mystic Square, and I'll be going through at least Lotus Land Story, as I happen to know its tracks have a lot of merit.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Nine West on November 03, 2009, 09:18:17 AM
The two, perhaps, most amazing tracks from PC-98 are Vanishing Dream ~ Lost Dream and Bad Apple!! from PoDD and LLS respectively. Of course, Reincarnation from PoDD and all of (PC-98) Alice's themes from MS are also pretty well known.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Helepolis on November 03, 2009, 09:19:45 AM
PC-98 characters are a bit troublesome, as there is no PMiSS or BAiJR about them. ZUN should imo write PMiSS II with PC-98 till UFO.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 03, 2009, 12:35:54 PM
I can't wait for PC-98, because we don't know anything about them, and the (Eastern) Fandom doesn't really struggle to make up something.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on November 03, 2009, 03:03:06 PM
I'm looking forward to Strawberry Crisis!! and Sailor of Time. Do them great justice!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Seian Verian on November 03, 2009, 07:30:56 PM
I'm looking forward to Magic Square, Spiritual Heaven, Decoration Battle, and Reincarnation :3 They're probably my favorites from PC-98 besides songs that would actually be alternate themes.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Moerin on November 03, 2009, 07:39:05 PM
Personally, I look forward to your takes on Strawberry Crisis!!, Sleeping Terror, and my two favourite EX-boss themes in the series, Grimoire of Alice and Cute Devil ~ Innocence~

I can't wait for PC-98, because we don't know anything about them, and the (Eastern) Fandom doesn't really struggle to make up something.

Sometimes I think that, since the Eastern fandom doesn't really care about them, the Western fandom should adopt the PC-98ers and Rin Satsuki as their own, and come up with their OWN fanon and silly memes for once rather than aping the Japanese.

Um... Ahem.  Feel free to ignore me, I'm just a raving lunatic...
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 03, 2009, 07:55:32 PM
Sometimes I think that, since the Eastern fandom doesn't really care about them, the Western fandom should adopt the PC-98ers and Rin Satsuki as their own, and come up with their OWN fanon and silly memes for once rather than aping the Japanese.

I actually think that's a great idea! This is why I was all about that "retconning the PC-98 games" on Poosh before. (What turned out useless, because the lack of fanon is why people think about continuity problems in the first place.) It's not that I'm a Pc-98 fag, I don't really love them, but I just can't love them because I don't know anything about them! And it's just sad.

At least Satsuki Rin has a meme: her non-existence (what is also sad, that's why I wanted to make her a main character in three of my game ideas).
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Kuma on November 03, 2009, 09:18:06 PM
You mentioned that UFO's stage themes from 4 onwards are really weird, I think that's because the player enters another dimension on stage 4, or something.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on November 04, 2009, 12:34:47 AM
Don't go to far in building your own returns for the PC-98ers though. As with Alice and Yuka the doors are always open. What happens if we build up a year or more of fanon around a returning character and ZUN decides to bring her back in a completely different form?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Sen on November 04, 2009, 01:55:17 PM
Considering how much ZUN trolled his PC-98 fans with UFO I doubt that's happening :V

Also, aww. I was hoping alternate character themes would come first D:
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 04, 2009, 08:35:06 PM
Byakuren Hijiri ? Emotional Skyscraper ∼ Cosmic Mind

There are many aspects to this delightful piece, and the upthread comments caught onto many of them. Of course, I will repeat what many have said, but I hope to add some of my own thoughts, starting with the title itself. A note of warning to readers ? I very much like Byakuren, as she really embodies some real-life issues, as well as storytelling devices that I have an interest in (hatred due to ignorance for the former, kindness for its own sake for the latter), so I might gush somewhat. Please bear with it.

The title is equal parts about a state of emotional being and a state of mind. Both are uplifted, enlightened to an almost superhuman state. The former speaks of a tower of emotion, a person?s point of view that stands objectively above all else and is thus able to see and hear further than anyone else around her, and yet act as a beacon to those that would share in her wisdom. The latter hints at a person who has attained the Buddhist ideal of Nirvana and acquired a cosmic perspective, an almost divine insight, one who is able to perfectly understand what she sees. In just the name, Byakuren is portrayed as someone with perfect clarity of vision, able to judge impartially and fairly. The piece will demonstrate that, along with these qualities, she also possesses kindness and benevolence, and the force of personal power and will to support them.

I will start with the fact that most of the piece is in major. Sure, a few minor chords are thrown in here and there for emphasis and variety, but otherwise the whole piece presents a highly positive feeling. Unlike other themes? tendency to create an air of tension and menace to the listener, Cosmic Mind never even attempts to. The piece?s unashamed blasting of the listener with positive emotion and joyous enthusiasm never fails to put a grin on my face after the conflict and struggle of all the previous themes. To put it in as few words as possible, Cosmic Mind is kind to the listener. It?s a three-and-a-half minute-long bout of release and relaxation.

So yes, what about those two bits that are clearly ominous and menacing? I believe those segments, as well as the inevitable reaction of the listener to them, is an excellent demonstration of the misunderstanding and fear that Byakuren?s power can inspire. After all, she has cosmic power and wisdom, and the only word that one has that she will use them for benevolent goals is Byakuren?s own. These segments, with their deep bass, loud trumpets and strong minor chords, are the uninformed misapprehensions of what Byakuren does.  And it really goes beyond her backstory ? the protagonists expect her to be just another dangerously powerful youkai, and even the players themselves expect an enemy boss with the usual motives that have pervaded the population of enemy bosses so far ? destruction, subjugation, oppression, deprivation and other nasty-sounding nouns.

What does everyone get instead? The usual trumpets-and-piano are gone, instead we hear a gentle melody played by pipes, supported by a strumming acoustic guitar. The melodic line starts off calm, never venturing far from the repeating central notes. It slowly develops, never making unexpected leaps or transitions, and the listener is quickly lulled into a serene state, trusting the music to maintain its gentle nature. The melodic line is not simple; it?s full of cadences and chord transitions, yet these, and the resulting changes in key and harmony, are carefully hidden behind the melody, doing their job of supporting the melody without ever attracting attention to themselves. This whole passage reminds me of a quiet discussion, a careful presentation of ideas that build and build on themselves, supported by immaculate reasoning, yet instilled with a heartfelt passion and dedication ? the tempo makes this segment feel somehow breathless, at times - that show that the speaker truly cares about what she is saying, not merely practicing preaching for its own sake. Byakuren, then, is a thinker and a debater, with a force of will and a conviction in her ideals, with the experience and cunning to support them in discussion. She is argumentative and enthusiastic, yet respectful of another?s opinion, and will use reason and logic to assert her position and undermine her opponent?s, not malice and aggression ? the opponent might have trouble keeping up with her pace, however, as Byakuren strikes me as a person who thinks far faster than she can speak, yet feels the need to speak what she thinks, leading to her sometimes foregoing the need to breathe to squeeze in a few more points.

Prejudice dies hard, however ? the apprehension comes back to haunt the listener in full strength ? surely this person cannot be truly what she presents herself as? All evidence suggests otherwise, but second-guessing and doubt start piling on, threatening to consume the listener in their power and fury. However, Byakuren stands firm. Her voice and attitude stand out over these negative feelings; never breaking her demeanour she continues her flow of ideas, and soon the misgivings fall apart, the trumpet voicing them finally joining in to the chorus of Byakuren?s theme. This is a clear demonstration of one of Byakuren?s greatest virtues - patience. Perhaps she believes that the only thing that can change the nature of a man is he himself, and she can only nudge him in the right direction, letting him walk the rest of the path on his own two feet. Having said this, I believe this also reinforces what I said earlier ? Byakuren has great respect for her fellow man (youkai, demon, ghost etc.).

A lull in the conversation follows. The pitch lowers and the melodic line slows down. A strange tension builds up, not an ominous one, but, rather, a pensive one ? the chord progressions that are used never resolve properly, leaving us to wonder what?s going to happen next, or who even caused the pause, Byakuren, or her opponent. Considering what?s been going on previously, I would suggest that it is the opponent deeply considering the new thoughts and ideas bouncing around in their head. It is a tense moment, and the audience wonders as to whether Byakuren?s succeeded in proving her case, or whether her opponent will refuse to accept her arguments.

Thus we are left with a bit of a cliffhanger as the piece pulls away from these current events, and moves into what can only be described as a song. Long, strong yet gentle woodwind sounds carry a passionate melody, an ode to freedom. No longer inhibited by self-imposed rules she is able to let her mind run wild, the melody changing register and harmony as it sees fit, taking full advantage of the emphasis that high registers provide; the melody?s main notes are given the freedom to sound out fully, ornaments adding even more bright colours to an already kaleidoscopic expression of happiness. For all her great wisdom and experience, Byakuren?s melody is not complicated ? we have heard far longer and more elaborate melodies. What it lacks in sophistication or complexity it makes up for in volume and enthusiasm when the motif repeats and repeats, adding more and more power to itself, as if trying to say something but lacking the means to truly do so. Perhaps there are some things that even Byakuren cannot define using words alone, having to rely on passion and emotion to carry the rest of the meaning. It is this aspect that suggests to me that, despite her actual age, she is, mentally, still young and yearning for new ways of self-expression to everyone around her. After all, she has all these great ideas running through her head, and hardly enough time to say them all to a single person, let alone a crowd.

The song stops suddenly to give us a view of the quiet scene between Byakuren and her opponent. She is doing the talking, still in control of herself, respectfully considering, refining her points and arguments and presenting them to her opponent. It is impossible to say whether her opponent has conceded or not, but they still listen, and Byakuren still speaks. With this, the piece ends.







Phew. It?s done. I hope it?s decent. I?ll be taking a bit of a break, then I?ll move on to PC-98.
Yes that's a Planescape: Torment reference.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tengukami on November 04, 2009, 09:21:41 PM
Serafie: ZUN didn't troll PC-98 fans. They trolled themselves with their baseless expectations. Listening to some of them talk about why X meant that Yumemi or Mima was coming back was like listening to a group of 9/11 Truthers all agreeing with each other.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tengukami on November 04, 2009, 09:43:27 PM
But anyway, on subject:

I'm honestly not really crazy about Emotional Skyscraper. It sounds like the theme to a bad 80s cop show to me. But Fightest's review definitely helped me appreciate it, in any event. ZUN does get props for at least stepping outside of his comfort zone a bit and doing some new things.

I'm really looking forward to your PC-98 reviews. Reading up on the character profiles on the wiki might help, but otherwise you're going to be on your own there. I think a lot of ZUN's best material came out of this era, personally, so it'll be fun to see what you do with it.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on November 04, 2009, 10:04:19 PM
Fantastic stuff as usual Fightest. I think you hit the real Byakuren perfectly with your analysis.

Also, since we were talking about PC-98 fandom earlier (or the lack of rather) I think we should take Fightest's analysis of each theme and use it as our fandom material.  :V
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 04, 2009, 10:30:23 PM
*listening to White Lotus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmdMujLFIwI)*

Wow.

Okay, I try to put into words what I want to say... ahem. Awesome!
So, the song itself is like a debate, a real argument between two intelligent and capable, cunning opponent, arguing about who's view is better, and in this argument, Byakuren is clearly has an Upper Hand. Wow. For one, I'm someone who loves to argue about philosophical things (even thought I can't find a suitable partner for that; nobody likes to philosophize here :V ), and this theme is about that... wow. (I have a really bad time putting this feeling into words... :V)

*cue White Lotus...~Piano (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WtDBojw868)*

So... anyone wants to make a 12 stage long shmup with Danmakufu what depicts Byakuren's heartbreaking story before she got sealed away? It would be the most beautiful and sad shmup evar! ...
*Okay, go along, there's nothing to see here!*

Also, since we were talking about PC-98 fandom earlier (or the lack of rather) I think we should take Fightest's analysis of each theme and use it as our fandom material.  :V

Yeah, thinking the same.

As for a Satsuki Rin:

Meme idea: She lives at the other side of the Forest of Magic, but she has Zoro-like (from One Piece) sense of direction. She wanted to solve the Scarlet Mist incident but got lost and ended up in Heaven, beating up Tenshi years before SWR. 
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 04, 2009, 11:24:12 PM
Quote from: PrismYoshi
Also, since we were talking about PC-98 fandom earlier (or the lack of rather) I think we should take Fightest's analysis of each theme and use it as our fandom material.

Why, I'd be flattered. And thanks in general to everyone who's been providing the positive feedback that kept me going! :D

As for a Satsuki Rin:

Meme idea: She lives at the other side of the Forest of Magic, but she has Zoro-like (from One Piece) sense of direction. She wanted to solve the Scarlet Mist incident but got lost and ended up in Heaven, beating up Tenshi years before SWR.

That's a bit complicated for a meme, and adds new character elements (unless I'm wrong). From personal experience, the easier it is to formulate in as few words as possible, the more spreadable the meme. Thus, I think an easier meme would be to play on the fact that, canonically, Rin doesn't exist. Something along the lines that she's just like any of the regular crew, going about her business, until someone remembers that she doesn't exist and points it out to her. Then she pops out of existence, much to her annoyance, coming back only when everyone forgets that she doesn't exist. Something like that.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 05, 2009, 12:06:35 AM
Well her character doesn't exist, so that's why we should give her one.
Or maybe, expanding your idea, she would be that character who's never noticed by anyone. Like Alice in the Walfas flashes, or that bald guy in Zetsubou Sensei. ...

...
Yeah, that bald-guy like meme could work. I mean he's always there, but only as a faint existence, and nobody notices him, even if he goes to the women's side of the hotspring.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 05, 2009, 07:17:21 AM
and nobody notices him, even if he goes to the women's side of the hotspring.

Voyeurin Satsuki is now a meme.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Toasty on November 08, 2009, 09:25:01 PM
Request you analyze some mima, please.

Reincarnation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hws4X0skF1Y&feature=related

ZUN official remix of reincarnation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_adQ22WRY8

Complete darkness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXLmUPWl-vc&feature=related

Not that you have to do all of them. Take your pick. When you want to.

Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Helepolis on November 08, 2009, 09:38:19 PM
Fightest, you should have a webspace somewhere and upload all your posts to that place for a full overview. Too much work that needs some spotlight together imo.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Sapz on November 08, 2009, 10:03:16 PM
Request you analyze some mima, please.

Reincarnation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hws4X0skF1Y&feature=related

ZUN official remix of reincarnation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_adQ22WRY8

Complete darkness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXLmUPWl-vc&feature=related

Not that you have to do all of them. Take your pick. When you want to.
I would absolutely love to see an analysis of Complete Darkness. If you dislike chiptunes as much as you say, though, you might want to consider using this excellent fanmade remastered version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTDwvMTmXo4) instead. Just a suggestion.

...Not sure why I haven't posted in this thread before, actually, considering how interesting all of these analyses are. :V Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 08, 2009, 10:46:03 PM
Request you analyze some mima, please.

Will get 'round to Mima when I get 'round to Story of Eastern Wonderland, which is reasonably likely.

Quote from: Helepolis
Fightest, you should have a webspace somewhere and upload all your posts to that place for a full overview. Too much work that needs some spotlight together imo.

You mean like in a document? I could bash together a pdf, or a bunch of 'em, and upload them somewhere. Otherwise hosting them on a website of my own means me having any knowledge of html, which I don't, despite our day and age, to my embarrassment. What I can do now is alter my first post to link to all my other entries. Also, holy crap, it just sunk in I've done fifty-one reviews and analyses of character themes. Okay, to be fair, my early ones, say, most of EoSD, are very basic outlines, but still. Fifty-one entries. Satisfying number, that.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 08, 2009, 11:31:13 PM
Tonight I fell to the ground and hit my head, then I saw a prophecy: This shall be the place where the rise of the Western Touhoudom begins!

Umm yeah, organizing the data would be good.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Toasty on November 09, 2009, 12:19:58 AM
A blog would be a decent format for data organization....although cheesy.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 10, 2009, 09:34:37 AM
My break's over, and I'm starting on Mystic Square. It feels strange to move to chiptunes after the almost orchestral glory of UFO. That said, ZUN appears to have a lot of experience in this field and he uses the available sounds and effects well. Well, here's to hoping for a good start!

Sara ? Magic Formation ~ Magic Square

A simple, identifiable motif forms the centerline of this piece, focusing all attention on itself. Long, clean, single notes, alternating between major and minor, give the melody a dreamy melancholy feel. Their strong sound adds a sense of dignity and pride to their being there, but, combined with the melancholy feel, gives a sense of loneliness that inevitably comes with being guardian of a place long forgotten.

Classic, extremely straightforward chord progressions add a simplistic beauty to the mix ? as I?ve mentioned earlier, cadences are designed to evoke certain feelings from the listener, and the constant movement into tonic with the chords here provides a feeling of satisfaction throughout the piece for the listener. This translates into a self-assured confidence that reinforces the feeling of pride that is present.

Finally, the accompaniment, although present in its fast-paced arpeggios, is completely unintrusive due to its lack of strongly defining characteristics, like a distinct motif, high volume or thick texture. This then shows the prominence of the person over their ability, or their surroundings. This piece, then, is all about Sara.

Sara is not really a thinker ? emotions and body language are more important to her. She has a job as a gatekeeper, and she is dedicated to it, taking pride in what she does, never questioning her duty. With her position comes a degree of isolation from everything, as she can never really be present in the two worlds the border between which she guards, and this leads to vague feelings of loneliness that she herself has trouble defining. Due to this she tends to daydream, perhaps supplementing her solitary existence with imagined characters. She would appear strange to others due to her inexperience with real people, but those that know her would find comfort in her refreshing simplicity and her wistful daydreams.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 10, 2009, 01:50:18 PM
Ok, so about Sara:

- She's a gatekeeper, duh
- She's a loner/very lonely/can't socialize because of not being part of either world (I can sympathize with that.)
- Takes pride in doing her job (like China, without the sleep problem?)
- Possible memes: Lonely moe, maybe with her having lots of imaginary friends, to the point that she looks creepy to others?

I want to summarize the other characters too, just to make it easier for others to "know" about that character.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 10, 2009, 04:18:02 PM
maybe with her having lots of imaginary friends

I can get behind that, that's kinda cute.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Prody on November 11, 2009, 03:36:00 AM
Dohohoho

http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=3715.0
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 11, 2009, 07:25:00 AM
Quote from: Prody
Dohohoho

http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=3715.0

(http://cdn.myanimelist.net/images/clubs/3/34154m.jpg)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 11, 2009, 09:17:31 AM
Luize ? Spiritual Heaven

There is a strong duality in this piece which underlines a certain alien-ness in Luize. At first glance, it is the melody that speaks the most here - a clear, singular sound that carries well-defined emotions and has a solid, comfortable structure. The melody is romantic and expressive, with a degree of impatience suggested where the melody almost hiccoughs into a quick, forceful cadence, most prominently in the second part. The melody quickly becomes uncanny, however, due to its constant insistence on repetition of that same motif, over and over and over. The usual suggestion on not everything being right in Luize?s mind applies, but I believe the reason for that can be found in the piece?s accompaniment.

Starting with the introduction, with its characteristic high pitched bell-like sounds over a spartan background, the piece inspires a feeling of otherworldliness. The bells specifically give a cold, almost cosmic resonant sound, giving the impression that Luize is only slightly attached to earthly forms and desires. Astute readers will remember a similar property in Nue.

This detachment is emphasized in the piece proper ? the accompaniment?s arpeggioes don?t even try to set up a proper harmonic line for the melody, only changing every once in a while in what seems to be a self-indulgent manner, as if to keep up pretences, leading to a contrasted dissonance between melody and harmony. This is where I feel Luize?s real nature lies: her human form and behavior - an elegant and expressive, yet impatient girl - are essentially a front for a being trying to hide a completely alien nature. This ?alien? Luize continues the theme for bizarre duality ? she?s not accustomed to being in such a form, considering her inability to develop her character past a few keywords and bullet-points; but, on the other hand, she?s clearly had or wanted to do so before, otherwise this form would not even be present.

With this said, I believe that Luize is genuinely interested in interacting with Gensokyo?s natives on their terms, as one of them, rather than as a nebulous youkai. Therefore she prepared a few key phrases and a form to blend in ? she is thus, finally and ultimately, an enthusiastic tourist.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 11, 2009, 09:57:50 AM
Luize:

- Otherworldly (I think this will apply to all Makai residents)
- Elegant and expressive, yet impatient
- Possible meme: Give her a camera, and make her a "weird japanese tourist in the west".
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on November 11, 2009, 10:20:13 AM
Since I've never really ventured into PC-98 land, I can't really give much input here. I still think you're doing an awesome job though. This is also a nice way to force me to listen to some PC-98 music since I've been holding it off.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 11, 2009, 10:31:32 AM
- Otherwordly (I think this will apply to all Makai residents)

Needs a habit to go with that, terrifyingly alien, yet also possibly cute in a weird way. Say, when she wishes to alter her form, she does so physically - molding her face with her hands, stretching limbs, bones and sinews, popping joints, stuff like that. It's completely natural to her, and she wonders with a big confused smile on her face why the people with her have those expressions on their faces when she does so.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on November 11, 2009, 12:58:28 PM
when she wishes to alter her form
Midboss of Stage 4.
Luize, with other clothes, red eyes and a white aura thing.
Thanks to Donut for the pointer :V
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on November 11, 2009, 03:03:12 PM
Something I wanna start with Sara.

Perhaps she and Hong could have a rivalry relationship. Like they're each trying to one-up each other and it usually just ends in crazy antics and failed attempts.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 11, 2009, 03:28:36 PM
Something I wanna start with Sara.

Perhaps she and Hong could have a rivalry relationship. Like they're each trying to one-up each other and it usually just ends in crazy antics and failed attempts.

Gatekeeper-off? Who can guard the bestest? Well, neither of them are the sharpest tools in the shed, so it's entirely possible.

[edit] What the? I'm blue!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 12, 2009, 07:06:45 PM
Alice Margatroid ? Plastic Mind

Plastic Mind is the first truly dark piece that we have really been exposed to, not in its content, but what it implies. There are three distinct parts to the piece, not counting the introduction, each one getting more and more subdued and morose ? considering that this version of Alice is a child I can only suggest that her upbringing has not been the most caring or attentive. Considering what goes on in the third part of the piece I would consider suggesting that she has serious abandonment issues which have led to a certain destabilization of her mind. Despite Gensokyo+, I am having trouble putting a positive spin on the conclusions I?ve come to.

The introduction starts off innocent, no melody present, only broken minor chords, harsh and cold, going up and down with a token accompaniment to give an impression that whatever Alice has to say or show is hidden underneath a tense, emotionless exterior. Faced with strangers, she clams up, seemingly instinctually more than anything else, to avoid contact with them. Future developments will show that this is possibly a learned behavior.

The first melodic theme has Alice opening up to the listener. It?s likely that, despite the nature of any previous encounters she has had, she desires the company of others, and is unable to maintain her distance for a long time. The motif here is generally gentle and positive: the melody is in major, and consists of long notes that are able to play out their full length, avoiding the rushed feel of a faster tempo. There is no complexity here, the motif consisting, variations aside, from no more than 8 notes ? this version of Alice has a simplicity appropriate for a child, yet there is a spark of a mature self-control that, upon first glance, gives the impression of a well-adjusted little girl with good manners and a refined attitude.

The second part quickly lets the listener know that all is not as it seems, however. The tonality takes a turn for the minor, and the melody suddenly becomes far more elaborate than the simplistic motif of the first section, really emphasizing a sudden feeling of unfulfilled desire, the chord progressions really emphasizing this by adding tension, confusion and a certain despair to the music. The pace of this section is slightly raised, the calm demeanour the listener saw previously replaced by an uncertain desperation, as if Alice herself knows that something is wrong with her, but she doesn?t know what.

The third part then explains to the listener what?s going on, at Alice?s expense. The melody is reduced to an anguished wail, every part of it in minor. It never strays far from its tonic note, which, in the context of desperation, suggests that Alice has simply given up looking for solutions. The accompaniment is a set of single, long, deep notes, reinforcing the notion of something unfathomably deep to a child being present in Alice?s life, forcing her to acknowledge things that should not be present in her life at this stage. The presence of long, single notes in both melody and accompaniment is what gives me the impression of Alice?s abandonment issues ? she is always alone, and this has reflected poorly on her growing up. Perhaps she has been hurt when reaching out for contact, which is why she tends to freeze up in the presence of strangers, but her needs are more powerful than her fears, and she always opens up to anyone around her, for better or worse. It seems that she is unable to ever forget her solitary existence, which leads her into chronic depression, whether she is in the company of others or not.

I realize this analysis is more grimdark than usual, but I really can?t pull something positive out of Plastic Mind. If it ended on a positive note, somehow pulling back into major, maybe, but it just ends in the pit of depression it dug itself. Maybe someone else has some clever ideas. Ack, I?m depressed myself, now.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 12, 2009, 07:39:02 PM
Hmm, actually it fits to a back story idea of mine for my Expanded Universe, that Alice was abandoned and in her childish depression, she turned to magic (compare Maria from Umineko), studied crazily, and reached Makai at such a young age, what is hard to reach to the most experienced human magicians too. This "something is wrong with her" maybe is the start of her becoming a youkai, yet she couldn't realize it yet. Now this is where Shinki comes along as her Mother-like Tutor, and in the end, Alice overcomes her fears and depression and becomes the cool Alice as we know. But, there's that hint, that maybe there really is something horrible in her past: Dunno where, I think in BAiJR, it is said, that she buys medicine from Eirin, to make her dreams good, like those horrible memories are still haunting her dreams.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: 7TC7 on November 12, 2009, 09:25:52 PM
I don't really think Gensokyo+ existed much in pc98. Alice was "The witch of death" as the extra stage credits called her. She is by no means positive.
There is also other things that seem to speak against Gensokyo+, for example Luize coming back as a ghost in stage 4, meaning she probably died somewhere along stage two, or Mai's reaction to the heroine beating Yuki. Probably other things from SoEW and LLS.

By the way, I always thought Plastic Mind fitted Alice more than Grimoire of Alice and I was worried you wouldn't take a look at Plastic Mind. I'm happy you did as you did.
And I'm looking forward to read what you will have to say about Judas Kiss, my favourite from all the pc98 songs of one of my favourite characters.

I really enjoy your thoughts on all these themes. Keep going~
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 12, 2009, 09:31:39 PM
Well, pc98 is Before the Spellcard Rules, so it's just before Gensokyo+. It's like the Final Battles of the Dark Times of Gensokyo. Officially I call the pc98 games as the "Before Spellcards Arc"; Th6-9 "Youkai Arc"; Th10-12 "God Arc".

Also, Luize can alter her form.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on November 13, 2009, 12:25:42 PM
I like Solais' spin on this. Since PC-98 games are before the spellcard rule, it's hard to have a positive spin to anything. Without the spellcards, people can die easily. I think for this reason PC-98 is just overall a lot darker and more serious than the windows games.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 13, 2009, 01:07:58 PM
Okay, Yuki and Mai are complicated. Their individual themes are strikingly similar, so clearly there's an important contrast and comparison to be made there. Additionally, they also have a collective theme, which will affect the conclusions drawn from their individual themes.

In short, this might take a smidge longer than I thought.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: 7TC7 on November 13, 2009, 04:41:00 PM
Also, Luize can alter her form.

Where do you get that from, except from this thread?
It's neither in her profile, her dialogue, her music description or anything.
Sure, it's a possible solution, but I wonder.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 13, 2009, 05:16:46 PM
Needs a habit to go with that, terrifyingly alien, yet also possibly cute in a weird way. Say, when she wishes to alter her form, she does so physically - molding her face with her hands, stretching limbs, bones and sinews, popping joints, stuff like that. It's completely natural to her, and she wonders with a big confused smile on her face why the people with her have those expressions on their faces when she does so.

As there isn't any memes, or anything about the PC98 chars, we pretty much decided that we, the Western Touhoudom will adopt the pc-98 chars, and make up our own memes, and stuff.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: 7TC7 on November 13, 2009, 06:46:19 PM
As there isn't any memes, or anything about the PC98 chars, we pretty much decided that we, the Western Touhoudom will adopt the pc-98 chars, and make up our own memes, and stuff.

Yes, I read that.  ;)
I was just making a point in that other post about her coming back as a ghost, because she probably died in canon, to make a point against the so called Gensokyo+ for PC98 games.
You wanted to disprove that with a just established meme. But let's not diskuss to much on this and enjoy the music.

Luize is awesome, if she is death now or not.
She does look quite a lot like Yukari too, which I always liked about her.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 13, 2009, 08:00:08 PM
Well, she's being a ghost is just as fanon as ours.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Hieda no Aya on November 14, 2009, 04:58:25 AM
Yeah, PC-98 is before the spellcard system in-universe, and on the meta level, I've always gotten the impression ZUN didn't so much have a cohesive worldview he was shooting for with the series back then. Less Gensokyo+ is pretty darn reasonable. And it certainly has even more room for interpretation...

And Alice is verrry interesting. You know, I've never understood why the fandom is so fixated on the idea of Shinki being a mother in particular to Alice in particular -- maybe I'm missing something, but it doesn't seem like anything in the game points to that interpretation in particular. It's just one possibility, as good as any other. I always kinda liked the image of her being raised in Makai among beings that don't really have a concept of treating a human child differently than an unaging demon/youkai, or why it would be a good idea to do so. She strikes me as the kind of kid who'd like that illusion of maturity even as it kind of messes with her emotional development.

Does the Grimoire of Alice go under PC-98 or under alternate character themes, I wonder? But I'm looking forward to stuff in any direction.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 14, 2009, 04:55:24 PM
Yuki and Mai ? Forbidden Magic

It should come as no surprise that this piece has two distinct voices in it, one for each of the two characters that it represents. Just the fact that they have a collective theme speaks volumes about Yuki and Mai: their relationship with one another has developed into a theme, a force of its own, where, despite any differences they might have or whether they agree or not, they are always aware of what the other is thinking or feeling at any given moment. This really goes beyond friendship - theirs being together is really a fundamental part of their existence, and without this, without the theme, they are something less than just two parts of a whole.

The first and second parts of the piece have a common theme in a constantly-repeating motif that skips between two registers, as if showing two different characters expressing the same thing in their own way. Notably, in the first part, both the arpeggioes and the barebones melody are devoted equal attention to demonstrate equal importance between Yuki and Mai. The way the motif flows, low-melody and high-accompaniment to high-melody and low-accompaniment shows a natural ability to cooperate between the two characters, each one being able to effortlessly take over where the other ended without so much as a hitch, as much as each one?s ability to give up what they?re doing at a moment?s notice to give priority to the other.

Due to such closeness and mutual empathy Yuki and Mai are really a greater-than-the-sum-of-their-parts entity, breaking down into mere shadows of their selves when separated.


Yuki ? Crimson Maiden ~ Crimson Dead!!

This breakdown is quite easily seen as Crimson Maiden bursts out into a panicked, frantic tempo. For a while the piece doesn?t even have a melody, just broken chords repeating themselves in several registers, as if showing Yuki being unable to grasp the situation without her partner present to complete her, flailing around for some sort of resolution, but finding none. She finds a certain stability soon enough, and a melodic line begins to poke through ? it?s not really possible to call it a melody, as its function is to support the frantic broken chords, and it?s also far too simple, consisting of only a few notes, so it?s more of a melodic accompaniment than anything else. This, to me, shows that Yuki tends to let her feelings fuel her. Even when she realizes that cool-headedness and care are the order of the day, she still lets her hotter feelings guide her actions. Still, the lack of substance in the melodic line shows her as trying to maintain her partner?s presence by taking her part onto herself as well, but failing to make it really matter ? there is obvious weakness to be seen when Yuki is alone.

The subtle change at around the 1-minute mark demonstrates how familiar Yuki is with herself, able to harness her emotions to her advantage. The motif drops in pitch, suddenly acquiring the properties of fire that we?ve heard so long ago in Immortal Smoke ? creeping, cunning and deliberate. And now, suddenly, the feeling of panic is gone; instead, that blazing bassline makes the broken chords powerful, controlled and merciless. Even the melodic accompaniment plays a bigger role, much louder and clearer. This eventual transition and associated change of attitude shows quite well how Yuki?s personality was balanced by her partner?s, and how thrown off she is immediately when her partner is not around. However, even without her, Yuki is able to stand her ground once she is able to center herself.


Mai ? Treacherous Maiden ~ Judas Kiss

Much like Crimson Maiden, this piece starts off frantic, but there is no feeling of panic ? the repeating broken chords are firmly locked in place, serving as a foundation for the collection of melodic ornaments that appear in the beginning ? a bit of a melodic line here, an imitation of the chords in a higher register there. Mai is as confused and frightened without her partner as Yuki is, however she is much more in control of herself, immediately putting a leash on her emotions, no matter how much they might threaten to overcome her.

Mai centers herself much faster than Yuki did, the 30-second mark?s introduction of a deep bass adding certainty and deliberation to the fast-paced ostinatos. A hint of a melody begins to shine through occasionally, although it frequently gets lost behind the chord cascades, as if Mai is still unsure how to compensate for the lack of her partner. This motif really comes into strength at around the 1-minute mark, where the bass deepens and the melody intensifies, the uncertain combination of notes and chords finally coming together into a true, individual theme ? Mai is far more stable than her partner, Yuki, lacking the intensity and power that the latter?s theme holds, compensating for it with greater deliberation and control, a greater ability to act independently.

I would comment on the name of the piece, but I have no idea where the concept of treachery and betrayal would fit into a relationship already as flavourful as Yuki and Mai?s without it becoming somewhat ridiculous. Anyway, I feel like I?ve only scratched the surface of what this pair can offer us, so I?d like to know what the rest of you think.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: 7TC7 on November 14, 2009, 05:56:48 PM
I would comment on the name of the piece, but I have no idea where the concept of treachery and betrayal would fit into a relationship already as flavourful as Yuki and Mai?s without it becoming somewhat ridiculous. Anyway, I feel like I've only scratched the surface of what this pair can offer us, so I'd like to know what the rest of you think.

If Yuki is defeated first:
Mai: ...... You're not bad.
Now that she's not dragging me down,
I can finally be serious.
This time, I'll definitely defeat you!!
*grows bigger wings* *starts attacking*

It could be that I'm just influenced by this, but I'm sure I hear some much darker and more dramatic tones in Judas Kiss, representing that Mai is really someone with a dark personality and a calmer mind compared to the panicking that you noticed in Yuki's Crimson Death.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 14, 2009, 07:14:22 PM
It's not needed to summarize Yuki and Mai, they already have established characters, and the music tells us about these same characters.

Yuki and Mai is like those friends who are inseparable due their differences: think it as a "my best friend is my rival" stuff.

Yuki is like Fire. Mai is like Snow. The pun in their name is obvious. Yuki is that kind of character what you can associate with fire, while Mai is a cool person. Mai's "treachery" is more like a "I don't want to hurt my friend" thing. It's the clichéd "Agressive person/Calm person" duo (think Haruhi and Kyon; one is God, without knowing her power, the other is the Key to Everything; so who has more power again?).

Btw, both of them are Witches. We don't know if they're Natural-born Witches, or they were human once and became Witches, but it strengthens the fact mentioned in UFO, that Makai is a place where every witch and magician desires to go at least once.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on November 17, 2009, 12:20:49 PM
I was just listening to Grimoire of Alice and I'm really curious how the analysis will come out on that one. Going from Plastic Mind to this, Grimoire just sounds so much more... cold and emotionless.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 17, 2009, 12:29:55 PM
Going from Plastic Mind to this, Grimoire just sounds so much more... cold and emotionless.

I've had a first-time listen to Grimoire just now and I can't help but disagree. There's a self-assured intensity there, a confident declaration of intent. A bit of insecurity, sure, but I'd have trouble attaching cold and emotionless to it.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on November 17, 2009, 12:37:34 PM
Maybe "cold and emotionless" was the wrong phrase. Plastic Mind just sounds downright painful for Alice while Grimoire sounds incredibly more grown up and distant.

Mayhaps the transition from Plastic Mind to Grimoire of Alice could be an important aspect of Alice?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 17, 2009, 01:18:14 PM
Like how she got power and became youkai? I don't know the dialog or the ending, but maybe this is when she changed from a scared human to a more collected youkai.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 17, 2009, 01:25:11 PM
Mayhaps the transition from Plastic Mind to Grimoire of Alice could be an important aspect of Alice?

Quote from: Solais
maybe this is when she changed from a scared human to a more collected youkai.

Sounds believable. I'll see where my analysis will take me, but you two's suggestions are a pretty good starting point.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 17, 2009, 03:12:00 PM
Yumeko ? Doll of Misery

It seems to be a common theme amongst Makai?s inhabitants to exhibit some bizarre otherworldliness, a property that makes them appear uncanny and inhuman (even more so than the typical youkai). Sometimes they might try to adopt human mannerisms, but these tend to be obviously artificial; alternatively they don?t even try to do so and end up seeming entirely alien, albeit with plenty of personality in their own right. Yumeko, however, is a potent exception. ZUN?s notes on Doll of Misery state that this piece has the most complex chord progressions he has ever written, and it really shows ? this piece has the most true personality amongst any of those we?ve seen in Mystic Square so far, a character the listener can really relate to, with its emotional ups and downs, twists and nuances. Perhaps it?s the nature of her human form and the subconscious justification and adaptation of her mind of and to it, perhaps it?s a copycat mannerism that has her imitating the humans that drop by Makai every once in a while, perhaps it?s something else entirely ? either reason shows Yumeko is different from every Makai inhabitant we?ve seen so far. In addition, either reason supports something that has occurred to me ? Yumeko is, on a rough approximation, ancient; with age and experience comes the luxury of being able to be different from everyone else.

Doll of Misery starts off distant and alien ? diminished chords and dissonant harmonies serve as almost white noise, impossible to understand or relate to with the listener?s human senses and sensibilities. This is Yumeko as a true denizen of Makai ? strange, uncanny, perhaps a bit frightening in her intensity shown by the chords? merciless drone, never showing signs of stopping. This aspect, however, does not last long, as Yumeko notices the listener, and undergoes a surprising metamorphosis.

Long notes with a sharp, clear sound play out a melancholy tune brought together by major chords interspersing a mostly minor melody. Any sense of urgency brought on by the introduction completely dissipates along with the accompaniment, which is reduced to pinpoint chords to support the melodic line. The motif rings out, almost echoing, bringing with it associations the listener might have never thought to see. It is as if the listener looks into Yumeko?s eyes for the first time and sees something terrifyingly familiar in them, something unexpected in the otherworldly wasteland of Makai ? the joys and sorrows of humanity.

The revelation continues as the theme develops; the melody and accompaniment picking up more texture whilst retaining the ringing, echoing aspect. In just a few bars, the melody travels through a wealth of tonalities, each one carefully placed after the other, ardently following the rules of harmonic progression, yet showing a highly expressive side of Yumeko. Curiously, the structure of the accompaniment greatly resembles that of the introduction, except that here it is highly controlled by the harmonic flow, diligently taking on the appropriate chords to support the melody. Yumeko clearly is in touch with her Makaian origin, yet she seems to prioritize her humanity, putting a leash on her youkai tendencies, using them as a counterpoint to emphasize those qualities she wants to show ? emotions, compassion, and the like. And she indeed takes great care when doing so, always one step ahead of herself, planning and anticipating, always controlling her emotional flow as to be predictable and logical, and she turns out all the more appealing for it.

The more jaded of listeners might assume an ulterior motive beneath all the posturing as a human, or as something human-like. Yumeko herself, however, addresses these apprehensions as the music takes a turn for the uninhibited. The volume increases along with the ?instrumentation? for the melody, and the harmony stops its gentle traipse through classical chord progressions. It is as if Yumeko gives herself a jump start with her prepared mannerisms, then switches to something from herself to ensure that she does not scare away the listener and without switching back to the expected Makai aloofness. It is still impossible to really say why Yumeko does this, but there is a genuine effort on her part. Perhaps she has grown tired of Makai, perhaps her mistress is involved somehow, and perhaps this might even have something to do with Alice.

Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 17, 2009, 09:12:48 PM
It seems to be a common theme amongst Makai?s inhabitants to exhibit some bizarre otherworldliness,

Otherworldly (I think this will apply to all Makai residents)

:V

Also, I think Yumeko is the first creation of Shinki this is why she's her most powerful servant, and why she's so ancient. She maybe even started to gain a human personality due to her age.

Old Hag meme, all the way!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 19, 2009, 08:36:21 PM
Thread not dead! Only distracted by Dragon Age!

Shinki ? Legendary Illusion ∼ Infinite Being.

This piece is about nothing less than a God - a truly divine being immaculate in her splendor - and her realm. She is a different kind of God to Kanako ? the latter is an animistic goddess, more of a protector of her realm, invincible whilst in it, but ultimately tied to it ? should her realm weaken, then so will Kanako. Shinki, however, holds absolute power in and of her realm. It is not conceivable for her realm to weaken, as she could simply choose to make it stronger. Indeed, Shinki?s power is almost of Biblical proportions, as she is able to create and shape all around her to her whim. Of course, in her divinity she is not without flaws, and these really flavour her behaviour, giving the listener a glimpse into her motivations and her desires.

The piece starts off with the now-familiar Makaian atmosphere. This time, however, it feels charged, much like how one can feel the tension in the air before a thunderstorm. The energy present does not go anywhere because it already has nowhere to go ? everything around the listener is saturated to the brim with a power that seemingly comes from all places at once. Much like with Yukari, it is impossible for Shinki to be in the vicinity and for everyone not to feel it at once. It is not a benevolent, nor a malevolent power that the listener feels, however. It is a power that is simply there, doing what it is meant to do, regardless of whether it helps or harms someone.

Then Shinki appears. Several factors come together to create this awesome atmosphere around her. Of course, the melody?s long, sustained, smooth notes playing a confident theme create the necessary sense of majesty, the impression that this person has the luxury of deciding her own pace, as nothing can stop her from doing so. The supporting sharp chords almost echo, which adds that cosmic expansiveness that we?ve often heard in other boss themes. The deep, unrelenting bass adds a seriousness to the generally high-pitched melody, almost a growl to remind the listener in whose presence he is in. Ornamentation appears quite often in this segment, adding a bizarre touch of playfulness to a generally grim and cosmic melody ? this clearly comes from Shinki herself, as if she is playing with her surroundings as if they were mere clay at her hands, shaping the world around her to fit her tastes.

The atmosphere changes greatly in the second part of the piece, and here is where we learn about Shinki?s inner workings. The oppressive bass retreats to the background, and the echoing chords vanish. Instead of the dignified, almost solemn melody of the first part we hear an upbeat, simple 2x4-bar tune, employing a significant amount of syncopation, mostly in major. I believe that Shinki is, for all her grandness and power, quite childishly selfish. She is a great craftsman, and she knows it ? she enjoys her work and takes pride in her creations, but, on the flipside, she wants to keep them to herself, wants to surround things completely under her control, and hates intruders and anything that might upset her perfect little world. Obviously she would react poorly to the protagonists? assault on Makai.

The third part, shortest of all three, seems the inevitable conclusion of the character traits we see in the second. The melody is subdued, no longer tending to hop across the octaves. Bell-like sounds accompany the melody to add back in the characteristic otherwordly feeling into the generally melancholic motif. Soon enough, what could pass for an oboe enters the melody, adding that very powerful, lonely sound on top of everything else. Yes, Shinki, in her state of self-imposed solitary confinement, where everything is under her control, is lonely. In that case it?s quite expected that she would cause such an upset as opening up Makai to the outside world for a breath of fresh air, as it were.

I hope I?ve made some satisfactory points about Shinki, her being our first really major character from the PC-98 era. I don?t know if I?m grasping at smoke here, but I?m really seeing some severe differences between PC-98 and Windows Touhou, mostly the increase of grimdark aspects. I?ll honestly say I thought people were talking rubbish when they were saying old Touhou was darker, but, well, I?m convinced.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 19, 2009, 09:07:33 PM
Hmm. So... *trying to put his words into a some kind of a metaphor* ... Shinki is like some totally, perfectly introverted person, who is so disconnected from the world that she made a little inner world where she reigns as God? Or maybe she and Makai is the representation of every inner world a human have? Because, I always say, that every human has an inner world and they're the God of this world. And if someone try to force themselves into this world, it would seem otherworldly. This is why humans can't understand each other that fast, they need time to "unlock" this world, and it only works if the God of the World wants it.
I wonder, is Makai ZUN's inner world? Or that's actually Gensokyo? (I believe it's Gensokyo. Reading CoLA somehow made me understand him.) If it's Gensokyo that means he is a social person? (Easy to understand, and highly popular and addictive.)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: MCXD on November 20, 2009, 02:54:28 AM
I'm not sure if it has been answered already, as I have been reading your analysis articles off and on, but a question just occurred to me.

Is all this to say that ZUN is a brilliant music composer? Or is this sort of thing present in a lot of other games as well? Or even more-in, is it present everywhere, but when someone says that music 'fits' a character they are subconsciously connecting all of these dots anyway?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 20, 2009, 07:29:33 AM
I'm not sure if it has been answered already, as I have been reading your analysis articles off and on, but a question just occurred to me.

Is all this to say that ZUN is a brilliant music composer? Or is this sort of thing present in a lot of other games as well?

A bit of all of the above, really. ZUN is certainly very talented in what he does, recall that just the Windows Touhou games have over a hundred individual themes, including bosses and stages, and he's never repeated himself even once. This is certainly something that appears, albeit to a lesser degree, in other games - characters might have their own themes, likewise bosses - but it's most prominent in Touhou, each and every boss being associated with a particular theme just by the nature of how the game is structured, making it easy to attach that music to them on a deeper level.

Quote
Or even more-in, is it present everywhere, but when someone says that music 'fits' a character they are subconsciously connecting all of these dots anyway?

This is a major aspect, there's a lot of subconscious association going on with some of the more memetically established characters, for example I knew I would capitalise on Byakuren's Youkai Jesus status, or on Parsee's jealousy. However, I do try my best to substantiate my opinions with musical facts about the piece itself, and try to glean some new characteristics by myself.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 23, 2009, 09:02:46 AM
As much as I'm interested in old (young?) Alice, I'll lump Grimoire of Alice into the "alternate themes" category and move on to Lotus Land Story. Update will come later today, hopefully, so for the moment I'll put down a few comments and questions:

- Should I do Highly Responsive to Prayers? It seems to be way off-canon, and really weird at that.

- Someone lied to me! Maiden's Capriccio originated in Lotus Land Story, meaning that Reimu's two themes, the other being Mystic Oriental Love Consultation are only a game apart. I'm not sure what to make of this, though.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on November 23, 2009, 09:13:52 AM
- Should I do Highly Responsive to Prayers? It seems to be way off-canon, and really weird at that.
I don't really think you can appoint a given song to a character in HRtP.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Seian Verian on November 23, 2009, 10:34:50 PM
I think that you should do Sariel and Konngara's themes, yes, but go ahead and skip the other stuff in there.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 24, 2009, 09:38:04 AM
Okay, I'll keep that in mind. Unfortunately, updates will be delayed even further, since I appear to be ill. Which sucks.

To keep a semblance of interest, here's today's question: what makes a ZUN track a ZUN track? In other words, when people imitate him, what is it specifically that they must imitate to, well, have their piece sound like one of his? Is it the instrumentation, the pacing, the stylistic tendencies? What do you think, readers?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: MCXD on November 24, 2009, 10:06:12 AM
I think that you should do As Master Kappa Says ~ One-Way Accelerator  :V

Although in all seriousness, I don't much care for HRtP. I think you're pretty much out of Touhou options as far as ZUN's works go, unless you analyze some of the CD songs, if any are actually linked to any characters.

I guess it is just remixes/arranges from here on out D: oh noes. (?)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 24, 2009, 10:48:30 AM
I think that you should do As Master Kappa Says ~ One-Way Accelerator  :V

Although in all seriousness, I don't much care for HRtP. I think you're pretty much out of Touhou options as far as ZUN's works go, unless you analyze some of the CD songs, if any are actually linked to any characters.

I guess it is just remixes/arranges from here on out D: oh noes. (?)

Oh, gosh no, I've still got alternate themes remaining, and there's quite a bunch.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Lloyd Dunamis on November 24, 2009, 08:20:02 PM
Okay, I'll keep that in mind. Unfortunately, updates will be delayed even further, since I appear to be ill. Which sucks.

To keep a semblance of interest, here's today's question: what makes a ZUN track a ZUN track? In other words, when people imitate him, what is it specifically that they must imitate to, well, have their piece sound like one of his? Is it the instrumentation, the pacing, the stylistic tendencies? What do you think, readers?
*offers donations to Reimu's Sanae's both Hakurei and Moriya Shrines' donation boxes, prays for you to get well soon >.<*

Ah, interesting question! I've always want to hear about that, though I don't know how to, uhh, tell something about it.
So there's this ZUN melody, which makes it pretty much a ZUN track. Can't miss that. When I heard UFO's stage 4 for the first time, it sounded like reminded me of a very old ghost/undead anime I vaguely know of, GeGeGe no Kitaro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeGeGe_no_Kitaro), and some 1980-ish cruising/robot anime i couldn't name. Only this time it's in ZUN style. The melody is very catchy. Well, almost all Touhou tracks are IMO. For one, I tend to hum second voices instruments of MoF's A God That Misses People ~ Romantic Fall.

And hmm... mixed with something important that I couldn't compose to words what it is >.<... Oddly, it has something to do with environment, or culture (but not limited to those)... Sensitive Heart's Touhou albums pretty much tells/improves that part/idea of a track being a ZUN track... or more appropriately a Touhou track, IMO. [example: Fallusion - Maple Flowed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksJgp6wUbhc)]
And pretty much all you mentioned (instrumentation, style shifts, etc).
... aaaa-I think I'll just bust in when I hear someone tell of what I've been willing to point :V


If HRtP were to be analyzed, I'd like to request Eternal Shrine Maiden... partly because it's a personal favorite, and the thought that it's the first ever stage theme (that somehow relates to Reimu, especially after the remixes) in the series, regardless of HRtP being shmup-and-platform-like or something... that is, if HRtP or only part of it were to be analyzed.

I'm at a loss of words how I appreciate the analyzations so much >w<. It makes me like/love the theme and the character more. And also,
Also, since we were talking about PC-98 fandom earlier (or the lack of rather) I think we should take Fightest's analysis of each theme and use it as our fandom material. :V

EDIT[after 9hrs]: Ohmigah, I forgot to complete my UFO statement o_o *adds*
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 25, 2009, 06:39:26 PM
[edit: needs an intro] I'm starting on Lotus Land Story, having skipped Grimoire of Alice as I mentioned before. I'm curious what I'm going to do with Yuka and her two themes, but that's a problem to solve when I get there.

Orange ? Decoration Battle

The 6-second introduction sets the mood for the rest of the piece ? fast-paced, energetic, restless. Despite Orange being essentially irrelevant to the plot, she has a lot of personality stuffed into her that just needs to have itself heard. She burns bright, but very fast, not having enough emotional or physical stamina to support her fiery personality.

The melody has three distinct parts, practically unthinkable for a very first boss theme, which demonstrates an unusual expressive drive in her, one that she can barely keep up with at the best of times. All are characterized by ambitious and quick melodic lines that span large amounts of the keyboard, yet there is a presence of a distinct structure. The instrumentation is as expected ? a strong trumpet-like sound carries the main melody, although there is an interesting addition of a deeper sound to accentuate the main notes in the melody that adds a certain resonance to these notes, almost softening them.

Each melodic interval is no more than a few seconds long, and quickly switches to the next one that is equally energetic and, well, bouncy. Almost always a large amount of ornamentation is present, representing the usual penchant for independent action and strong need to add self-expression into situations that might not require it. There is almost a haphazard disregard for major and minor as the piece switches between the two as it sees fit. A final point to note is how the piece audibly runs out of steam halfway through, losing a lot of its drive, carrying on by melody alone, only picking itself up towards the end.

Putting all the above together, Orange strikes me as a person who enjoys action of any kind. She tends to be a bit noisy due to her desire to express everything she thinks, and can tend to seem to be everywhere at once for the same reason ? do everything, try everything, say everything. It?s important to point out that she isn?t stupid or simple ? she just never has time to delve deeply into something due to her impulsive nature. Unfortunately, she just can?t really keep up with herself, physically or mentally, so she ends up getting dragged around everywhere ? by herself, mind you ? when she should just stop and take a break.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on November 25, 2009, 08:58:54 PM
Orange

- Hyperactive

And nothing else. :V
There's already a meme that she's dead. :V
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: misosoupwitheggplant on November 26, 2009, 02:35:24 AM
ORANGE~

Er, anyhow, I have to agree with you. I always imagined Orange just wanting to help everyone and failing miserably... That kind of fits, though. But her theme has way too many parts. I say that only because I'm having trouble writing sheet music for myself so I can play Decoration Battle. :/
I've been waiting forever for you to get to Decoration battle. Now I can sleep once in a while.

(Edit-Argh, my computer.)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 27, 2009, 09:16:30 PM
Kurumi ? Scarlet Symphony ∼ Scarlet Phoneme.

LLS just keeps throwing out surprises one after the other. Where Decoration Battle was hyperactively dense and action-packed, Scarlet Symphony is pretty much on the other end of the spectrum, autistically fixated on one motif and one motif only, using that single melodic progression to try to express far more than it really can.

I?ve frequently associated such consistent and dedicated repetition of a motif, such as the one that can be heard in Scarlet Symphony, with a mental or psychological issue or deficiency. The piece has no more than one motif that it sends through bizarre and thoroughly unexpected harmonic transitions to express an unusual range of emotions, with utter disregard for harmonic sense and pacing. The image that I get, and I will be honest here, is of an autistic child. They feel and experience the full range of emotions available, but are ultimately unable to fully express themselves to those around them. What little information they get across is confusing and nonsensical to those unfamiliar with the child?s behaviour, and this only leads to frustration on both ends. The same I feel with this piece ? a maddeningly simple and repetitive motif, entirely consistent within itself due to its adherence to following mostly a single chord?s notes, but with the tendency to inexplicably change from major to minor tonality ? Kurumi wishes to express something, but the barrier between her and the listener only lets through what of her emotions, but not the why. The suddenness of the change bears noting, and this is what reinforces that childlike image ? adults rarely tend to skip from emotion to emotion, but young children are more immediately affected by their environment, thus making such rapid shifts more likely.

I?ll be honest, there?s little else for me to mention. I would be able to comment some more if I maybe knew Kurumi?s dialogue, but I doubt it would really help one way or the other. What I do find curious is, despite there being easily over three different mentally unstable or undeveloped characters, each of them has a distinctly unique issue or illness and manner of expressing it. Personally, I doubt this is truly intentional on ZUN?s part, and is probably just the result of his incredible sense of variety in the music he writes.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Recon 5 on December 01, 2009, 09:18:49 AM
I wouldn't call these characters' oddities 'illnesses' so to speak. They had been 'ill' longer than Reimu had lived when she met them. I think that the strange habits and beliefs are quirks of their personalities and intrinsic parts of who they are rather than 'disorders'. After all, they're all not human, so how can a human say they're sick?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 01, 2009, 09:38:05 AM
I wouldn't call these characters' oddities 'illnesses' so to speak. They had been 'ill' longer than Reimu had lived when she met them. I think that the strange habits and beliefs are quirks of their personalities and intrinsic parts of who they are rather than 'disorders'. After all, they're all not human, so how can a human say they're sick?

They're anthropomorphic, so I feel that it's not unreasonable to compare them with humans. Your point is valid, of course, that I describe their quirks and oddities by human standards. However, I have to use some standards to describe them, otherwise I wouldn't be able to get my point across, and the best comparisons I can draw are, indeed, to humans.

Bringing back what I mentioned initially - they look like humans, so in some way they would act like humans, hence me judging them by these human terms. If they were so alien that they couldn't be compared to humans at all, there'd be no point to these analyses.  ;D
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 01, 2009, 11:01:55 AM
I apologise for the slow updating, but my workload's suddenly shot up, and I'm grateful for that, but it does mean there's less time for me to listen to Touhous.

Elly ? Spirit Battle ~ Perdition Crisis

This piece consists of two almost even time-wise, though very different in terms of content, halves. The first is exceptionally varied, with several distinct melodies and a well-developed introduction, whereas the second hangs on the repetition of a single short motif and its one variation. It is obvious to me that this duality is a key aspect of Elly?s personality. I will draw comparisons to the other gatekeepers that we?ve seen ? Sara and Hong Meiling ? as I believe there are some similarities between all three that bear mentioning. The first part I?ll split up bit by bit, as there?s quite a lot to mention, the second I?ll comment on generally.

The first part?s 25-second introduction consists of two parts itself, the first building up tension through a slow chord progression that moves towards an obvious culmination, but never quite gets there until the introduction?s second part, where the tension is released, both harmonically and instrumentally, into a tonic chord that hangs for a long time, does a quick development in its own key and makes a quick and unintrusive transition into the first proper melodic part. There is nothing unusual about a certain menace in a gatekeeper like Elly ? after all, a guard must command respect, and, as they say, fear is a good motivator for respect. This introduction suggests that she is an experienced guard, familiar with using both verbal and body language to quickly subdue her opponent, establishing herself as the one in control and thus approach the situation on her terms. She is probably impartial to those she encounters on-duty, so she has a great deal of passion for her job, never taking shortcuts or letting herself go even if in familiar company.

The melodic part of the first half consists of a repeating motif where the rhythmic structure remains the same, but the notes change, allowing the melody to change and develop rapidly whilst maintaining a sense of familiarity for the listener. The melody is mostly in minor; however the fast tempo and power of the accompaniment avoid any feelings of despair or melancholy, instead maintaining a serious determination that flows naturally from the vague menace that was formed in the introduction. There is a degree of ornamentation present that suggests a free-thinking attitude on Elly?s part. Elly easily adapts to her situations, very quickly analyzing and judging her surroundings, practically changing herself completely, yet still remaining focused on her original principles and missions, prioritizing them and never letting them out of her sight.

Despite this adaptability, Elly has a tendency to get stuck due to her determination, as the second half shows. There is exactly one rhythmic motif that?s a short 7 notes long that has one melodic variation. These are repeated over and over, the supporting accompaniment straining and struggling, yet ultimately doing little to break the never-ending loop. This strikes me as a core part of Elly that fits in to what I mentioned in the previous paragraph ? she gets tunnel vision, and, despite her adaptability, she sometimes gets stuck against an obstacle that she cannot cross and, instead of reconsidering her options and trying a different route completely, she strains against it, even if it?s impassable. This would come up, I reckon, if she had to go against her goals, even slightly ? in this case no amount of adaptation can help her, it?s simply not possible for her.


Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on December 01, 2009, 11:24:29 AM
So, a Lazy Gatekeeper, a Lonely Gatekeeper and now a Determined and Adaptive Gatekeeper. Who would win?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 01, 2009, 11:31:33 AM
So, a Lazy Gatekeeper, a Lonely Gatekeeper and now a Determined and Adaptive Gatekeeper. Who would win?

Now, and always, the answer will be Master Spark.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 03, 2009, 08:12:55 AM
I was about to sit down and get to work on Yuka, when I realised I hadn't actually solved the issue I knew was going to come up. So I'll put it up to a quick vote, which should I do now, leaving the other to Alternate Themes:

Sleeping Terror

or

Faint Dream ~ Inanimate Dream?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Seian Verian on December 03, 2009, 08:15:48 AM
Do Sleeping Terror.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Doomsday on December 03, 2009, 09:15:29 AM
Faint Dream ~ Inanimate Dream <3
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on December 03, 2009, 10:34:01 AM
I vote Sleeping Terror.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: 7TC7 on December 03, 2009, 12:34:07 PM
Faint Dream ~ Inanimate Dream I'd like~
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: PostCrisisJ2 on December 03, 2009, 02:51:49 PM
Faint Dream for me.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Moerin on December 03, 2009, 03:56:00 PM
Sleeping Terror, as it's my favourite Yuka theme~
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 03, 2009, 06:43:16 PM
 :-\

Vote is even. Clearly the decision will be done by a no-holds-barred duel to the death between two of you. Alternatively I'll do the one nominated after this post.

Also updated OP with links to the actual themes, thanks Lloyd Dunamis for the hard work.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Azinth on December 03, 2009, 07:07:53 PM
Flower of Japan.

Or Inanimate Dream.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: MCXD on December 03, 2009, 10:04:45 PM
Inanimate Dream all the way, although I think they're both good songs. ID just seems to be the one ZUN intended as her 'proper' theme.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Lloyd Dunamis on December 03, 2009, 10:34:59 PM
Ack, forgot to vote ;_;. Me votes for Sleeping Terror, if ever vote count still reaches beyond Azinth's.

@Fightest: You're Welcome! It's the least I can do :3
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Moerin on December 03, 2009, 10:42:11 PM
Aw... I always thought Sleeping Terror summed up Yuka a lot better than Inanimate Dream, but them's the breaks I guess...
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Doomsday on December 03, 2009, 10:46:10 PM
I just prefer Inanimate Dream to Sleeping Terror as a boss tune. I like them both, but i definately prefer ID
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Azinth on December 03, 2009, 11:02:36 PM
You guys are welcome to disregard my post if you want.  I realized right after posting that it's kind of unfair, considering I probably don't follow this thread as much as a lot of others here.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 04, 2009, 09:32:28 AM
You guys are welcome to disregard my post if you want.  I realized right after posting that it's kind of unfair, considering I probably don't follow this thread as much as a lot of others here.

Ah-ah, you're in the thread, so your opinion counts. Inanimate Dream it is.

(Also the person after you wanted Inanimate Dream as well, so point's moot.)

[Edit] I've decided that I'm officially tired of chiptunes, so after Inanimate Dream I'll finish up people's requests from the PC-98 games, i.e. tracks that were specifically asked for, and then move on to Alternate Themes, so those of you voting for Sleeping Terror won't have to wait long, as I'll be doing those in forward order again.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Seian Verian on December 04, 2009, 07:59:50 PM
[Edit] I've decided that I'm officially tired of chiptunes, so after Inanimate Dream I'll finish up people's requests from the PC-98 games, i.e. tracks that were specifically asked for, and then move on to Alternate Themes, so those of you voting for Sleeping Terror won't have to wait long, as I'll be doing those in forward order again.

Are we allowed to specifically ask for everything that's left? *shot* Eh, seriously though... I'd really like to hear an analysis of Reincarnation... And you can't forget Complete Darkness or Dimensional Dream under alternate themes either :P I'd also LOVE an analysis of Sariel and Konngara's themes from HRtP... And Rika and Meira from SoEW... Okay, maybe not, if you really don't wanna do too many more chiptunes, I guess you could skip those two. I just happen to think that ZUN was actually pretty freaking good at using chiptunes. I personally think that a lot of PC-98 tracks are better than a lot of Windows tracks.

Also, could you at least finish up LLS by doing the themes for the Extra bosses? Not that I much care, just the OCD in me that seems to be applying even to what other people are doing that doesn't wanna leave a game in progress unfinished :V *shot*
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 04, 2009, 08:02:27 PM
Are we allowed to specifically ask for everything that's left? *shot* Eh, seriously though... I'd really like to hear an analysis of Reincarnation... And you can't forget Complete Darkness or Dimensional Dream under alternate themes either :P I'd also LOVE an analysis of Sariel and Konngara's themes from HRtP... And Rika and Meira from SoEW... Okay, maybe not, if you really don't wanna do too many more chiptunes, I guess you could skip those two. I just happen to think that ZUN was actually pretty freaking good at using chiptunes. I personally think that a lot of PC-98 tracks are better than a lot of Windows tracks.

Also, could you at least finish up LLS by doing the themes for the Extra bosses? Not that I much care, just the OCD in me that seems to be applying even to what other people are doing that doesn't wanna leave a game in progress unfinished :V *shot*

Aw, all right, will do Mima, Sariel and Konngara. Also Mugetsu and Gengetsu. Also I agree, ZUN is really good with chiptunes. Still don't like 'em very much though.  :V

Onto Yuka - I was asked this question previously, but for those of you wondering why I?m doing this analysis when I already have a profile of Yuka: much for the same reason as Alice ? PC-98 is a different continuity, so this Yuka is approximately a different character, no matter how similar she may seem to her Windows incarnation.


Yuka Kazami ? Faint Dream ~ Inanimate Dream

The structure and pacing of this piece make for a relatively difficult analysis, as the different parts flow in and out of each other, never allowing a break, confusing and unbalancing. This, I believe, is the key to understanding this Yuka?s personality ? she is extremely unpredictable, in the worst ways imaginable. It is not possible how she?ll react to a given situation, and, considering the possibilities range from ?doing nothing? to ?out-and-out violence,? Yuka begins to come across as a dangerously unstable Youkai. This, ultimately, is why I believe she?s so feared and shunned. There are also certain similarities to her incarnation in PoFV, and I?ll bring those up as they come along.

The introduction carries a very characteristic growl in its accompaniment, a menacing sound that presents an unambiguous impression that there?s an almost animalistic rage and a great power bubbling just beneath Yuka?s surface. Much like with the other Youkai who have exhibited exceptional power, e.g. Yukari or Yuyuko, that power is tangible, coming off Yuka in waves, sometimes seeming to spark with the higher-pitched ornaments before grounding in the deeper registers. Yuka has clear control over her power, but demonstratably does not control it very much, leaving the listener to tiptoe around her, hoping not to aggravate her too much lest she explode. I believe Yuka adopts such an attitude with others due to a complex of some sort, a need to establish herself as the dominant one in a situation - her aggressive stance dares others to slight her, and simultaneously mocks them for not having the guts to do so. It?s a simplification to call her passive-aggressive, but it?s a start in the right direction of describing her mental state.

Suddenly the aggression disappears and the melodic first part starts up. The sound of the muted trumpet adds a certain heaviness to the melody that is, due to a quick pace and tendency to hop large intervals, rather flighty. Furthermore, the major key and lack of commitment to a coherent harmonic line make this an unexpectedly light-hearted motif, coloured, of course, by Yuka?s heavy presence. This motif quickly flows from the introduction, which makes me think that this is a smooth character transition, not two separate situations simply shown one after the other. Such a character transition is unsettling, as there is no rhyme or reason as to why it occurred; there were no logical chord progressions or other indications of the sudden metamorphosis. It is not possible to say at the moment what Yuka herself thinks of these changes, whether they?re conscious or not, but they are an obvious continuation of the theme of instability.

The pacing changes again when the characteristic third theme comes in, repeat upon repeat of a short motif made intense by the tendency to culminate at high notes after a buildup from a lower pitch. The piece moves back into aggression by the shrill sounds of the main ?instrument? and the persistent minor key, giving the impression that this part is a harsh cry for attention, repeated over and over to inspire a feeling of mania behind it. At this point it seems that Yuka, for no discernible reason, is losing control ? at the culmination of the little motifs we get a scattered burst as if sparks shooting off every which way due to an uncontrolled burst of energy, as if Yuka is just raving, completely oblivious to potential harm to others, just as long as she gets what she wants. This is where certain similarities can be drawn to PoFV, where a major aspect of Yuka was her obsessive narcissism, which is somewhat similar the selfish demand for attention and self-empowerment that is present here.

I probably do not need to explain how what happens next just adds to Yuka?s image of instability ? in a few short moments the piece moves from rant-and-rave to hostile-but-in-control, and then back again. It is as if Yuka enjoys dancing on the brink of madness, and mostly likely is naturally thus ? no sane person can do what she does that convincingly.

This is why I feel Yuka is an exceptionally dangerous Youkai due to the combination of her personality and access to a vast amount of power. She cannot be controlled or predicted, so she is like a bomb with a glitchy trigger mechanism ? you never know what could set her off, and it?s likely to not be the same thing every time. One just has to keep their distance and hope she?s not feeling confrontational.


Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Moerin on December 04, 2009, 08:09:01 PM
You have to do Strawberry Crisis!!, otherwise I know there are a few people who will lynch you~

And if possible, I'd like to see your thoughts on Watatsuki's Spellcard ~ Lunatic Blue.  It's not a chiptune, so... Yeah.  And it's pretty much the Watatsuki's theme, and as I'm a big fan of them... Well, you see where this is going, I suppose.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on December 04, 2009, 09:01:14 PM
Huh. So Yuka is generally what the Fandom make her to be. Of course, her dialogue in MS also shows this. Then if we compare her to Alice, while Alice changed and grew a lot since the time of MS, Yuka is still the same, maybe a little more peaceful, just as how Gensokyo became more peaceful since the Old Times have passed.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on December 04, 2009, 09:32:31 PM
I shall not be pleased if you don't be look at Sailor of Time, Visionary Game ~ Dream War, and Vanishing Dream ~ Lost Dream.

Also, how could you not love the glory of chiptune Touhou music? <3
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Seian Verian on December 04, 2009, 09:38:18 PM
I think at this rate, a lot of people will be unhappy if you miss even one boss theme from SoEW or PoDD xD Well, apart from the Five Magic Stones in SoEW, they're not really even a character <_<;
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on December 04, 2009, 10:03:51 PM
I think at this rate, a lot of people will be unhappy if you miss even one boss theme from SoEW or PoDD xD Well, apart from the Five Magic Stones in SoEW, they're not really even a character <_<;
Hey. Bet on Death is a good song as well.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Seian Verian on December 04, 2009, 10:08:35 PM
Hey. Bet on Death is a good song as well.

That may be, but it's character themes that are being analyzed here, not... Object themes :V
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on December 04, 2009, 10:59:27 PM
Requesting Strawberry Crisis!!, Sailor of Time, and Kananananananaberal's theme, Vanishing Dream ~ Lost Dream.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Moerin on December 04, 2009, 11:09:41 PM
Oh crap, I almost forgot Rika's theme, She's In A Temper!, and the Evil Eye Sigma theme, The Aggressive Daughter's Visionary Dream~  Unless you'd count that second one as more of an alternate Rika theme, I guess.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 04, 2009, 11:19:31 PM
Hmm, it seems that I've totally shot myself in the foot with the whole 'request' business. Ah well, I'll do what I promised, all because I love you guys so much.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on December 05, 2009, 01:12:21 AM
Reincarnation. Do it Faggot!

And Yeah We Raabuu you too and I'm tired and the windows is scrolling down and up on it's own what.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 08, 2009, 06:13:22 PM
I'm not dead! Next update will hopefully be tomorrow.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Flandrenonymous on December 10, 2009, 08:52:19 PM
Brand new user (actually was directed to this forum because of this thread in particular).  Gotta say you did some awesome work and analysis on a lot of the themes.

If you're still taking requests, I would love to see an analysis of "G Free ~ Final Dream" from Concealed the Conclusion.  Know it's technically a remix, especially since it's a fangame too, but I'd love to see an opinion on it (especially since the song seems to get overshadowed by "G Free ~ Ultimate Dream, unjustly in my opinion).
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 10, 2009, 09:11:44 PM
Brand new user (actually was directed to this forum because of this thread in particular).  Gotta say you did some awesome work and analysis on a lot of the themes.

If you're still taking requests, I would love to see an analysis of "G Free ~ Final Dream" from Concealed the Conclusion.  Know it's technically a remix, especially since it's a fangame too, but I'd love to see an opinion on it (especially since the song seems to get overshadowed by "G Free ~ Ultimate Dream, unjustly in my opinion).

Ooh, word of my glory spreads across the Interwebs! Soon I shall be immortal!  ;D

Regarding G Free - from what I remember it's a ZUN track that was on one of those music CDs that aren't associated with any of the games in particular. In that case, I'll have to do the original first, then do remixes. I'm fine with that, and it'll go on the agenda. You might have to wait a bit though, as Alternate Themes are next after I'm done with the PC-98 requests.

And speaking of PC-98 requests:

Mugetsu ? Illusion of a Maid ∼ Icemilk Magic

Mugetsu?s theme takes a break from complexity and delivers a refreshingly simple set of motifs that vary in texture and pitch, but not in content, suggesting a single-mindedness in her. Not the manic single-mindedness that I tend to associate with heavy repetition, but a more childish lack of ambition that focuses her on one task, keeping her content as long as she has something to do. All throughout the piece, from the introduction to the end, Mugetsu comes across as someone lost in their own world, in a daydreamy sort of way. Curiously, due to this Mugetsu might appear to be sometimes aloof and alien, especially as she is quite a powerful individual. It is most likely that this is not intentional, however, and it?s even a possibility that she strongly dislikes violence, keeping it as a last resort no matter the situation.

The short 8-second introduction brings in half of the melodic motif that persists for the entire first segment of the piece. It?s a slow, ponderous affair, as if it knows that it?s gearing up for something, but is not sure exactly what. This short segment gives Mugetu an air of energetic air-headedness when combined with the quick tempo of the first segment. You know the type ? eager to get something done, but with no idea how to get started, they pull up their sleeves and charge straight at the problem, hoping that it?ll sort itself out in the collision. More often than not, it doesn?t, and they end up looking silly and confused, not sure what just happened.

The first segment is made up of a single repeating motif that tends to itself hop around the place, changing pitch and harmony as it wishes. Although the motif?s melody is legato, the supporting drum track serves to separate the individual notes, giving a certain jerkiness to the melody that suggests an elegant appearance that hides an inappropriately slapdash approach to things. The single motif avoids repetitiveness by adding different texture when it?s not changing pitch, ultimately showing surprising variety for a four-bar melody. This is what suggests to me a certain childishness ? unable to focus on really big and important things, Mugetsu has a simple train of thought that takes her on fanciful daydreamy rides no matter where she may be. She is not stupid, but merely unaware of any bigger issues that she might need (or not need, for that matter) to be thinking about.

The second part comes in abruptly, completely changing the feel of the piece by switching to an echoing sound, adding an unexpected otherworldly aloofness to a generally down-to-earth character. I believe that this is how Mugetsu is perceived by others when she?s daydreaming. She may have no harmful thoughts to speak of, but her observers have no idea what?s going on through her head. All they see is a girl with unknown powers that pays little heed to things around her, which is something that makes her hard to predict ? which is one of the aspects that makes Yuka such a terrifying entity. Thus, she is made out to be alien and mysterious, when she?s simply entertaining herself, having fun.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Flandrenonymous on December 11, 2009, 04:28:27 PM
One thing I do have to note about the songs (you seem to have a much better overall grasp on music theory than I, so I won't get into that) is the percussion.  While I love ZUN's stuff, I have to admit that a lot of his songs are kind of...overwrought with inhumanly fast percussion, especially post EoSD.  I think that's why Cosmic Mind stood out for me as a final boss theme.  It's very...measured and sedate compared to past boss themes, percussion-wise.  Same with Solar Sect of Mystic Wisdom.  It doesn't quite have the more natural percussion of Septette or Cosmic mind, but throws in much deeper bass drums (and I think rarely used toms) to give it a much different flavor.

On a different note...while I'm not about to list MoF as my favorite of the soundtracks, I do have to note one thing: most of the songs on the soundtrack sound like...well...actual songs.  Verse, refrain, bridge, etc.  The tracks feel much closer to modern song composition than the others on the whole (though SA has a couple tracks kinda like this too, like Satori Maiden and Lullaby of Demonic Hell).  Most of the other tracks seem to go more through movements than verses.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 17, 2009, 10:04:51 AM
Where's my thread? Ah, here it is. *blows off the dust*

Gengetsu ? Cute Devil  Innocence

I find this piece to carry a strong feeling of unapproachability throughout. There is this disregard for all things mundane and mortal, as if the piece tells us of a character that transcends comprehension by its own nature. The piece gives me the impression that Gengetsu was always such ? operating on a level beyond human (and humanesque, in the case of most youkai) understanding and never stepping down, as it were, to understand things beneath her. However, I believe that this is not deliberate on her part. I get the impression that Gengetsu?s realm is a lonely place with little opportunity for her to express herself, and, even beyond that, I feel that Gengetsu is only vaguely aware of herself ? she can perceive and respond to things, but she has trouble understanding what?s doing the perceiving and responding. Considering the fact that she resides in a dream world (although the limited profile in the wiki seems unclear on this) it only makes sense, as there is not really such a thing as a concrete form or self there. With the arrival of the protagonists, Gengetsu is able to more root herself in reality, and gain a degree of self-awareness.

The introduction sets the mood immediately. We have what amounts to an organ slowly and regally playing through a somber chord progression. Nothing else distracts from this very moody sequence and the feeling is present that the listener is all alone in a vast void. Here and there is heard a harsh crack of a drum to reinforce the feeling of coldness and inhospitability. This is Gengetsu?s realm and, at the moment, essentially Gengetsu herself as an entity that exists but does not know itself.

We are then presented with a few repeats of the accompaniment that will be present in the background for the rest of the piece. To continue established themes, it?s a cold, harsh and unwelcoming motif, in minor to boot ? the accompaniment is designed to keep the listener uncomfortable throughout, although in later stages it tends to be drowned out by the more humane developments.

Soon enough the characteristic main theme begins, and will be heard throughout most of the piece, in differing pitches and textures. It?s a very straightforward theme with a lot of momentum ? as a strict series of broken chords with a cadence at the end, it does not allow for much harmonic leeway. Additionally, there is very little emotion in this motif, a feature that is further augmented by the choice of ?instrument? used ? an echoing, soft sound that almost literally distances the listener from the melody. The constant repetition of this motif, along with the features added by the accompaniment, really emphasizes this as a key aspect of Gengetsu, whose ability to respond to stimulus ? at this point in the piece ? is limited to a distant lack of involvement. It is much like trying to elicit an emotional response from the vacuum of space.

As the piece goes on, the core motif builds up strength and character as more and more texture is added in the form of a drum accompaniment and a quick, scattered melodic study in the background. Additionally, the ?instrument? used changes subtly ? there?s still the echo, but there is a greater down-to-earth force in it. All in all, the impression is that of a growing awareness, a greater confidence in the self that develops in Gengetsu, as if limbs and sensations that had long been disused are firing up again, or, possibly, awakening for the first time.

Finally, a unique melody develops, with characteristics appropriate to a character that experiences and feels in a way similar to how a human or a humanoid youkai would. The melody does not last long, but it has plenty of emotion while it lasts. It?s fast-paced, firey and ornamented. Gengetsu develops a proud personality, eager to get things done and extremely confident in one?s own abilities. I would say this mirrors the personality of any of the protagonists quite well, so it?s possible that Gengetsu is imitating them, for lack of a better point of reference, perhaps looking for something that suits her in this outburst of emotion.

It?s hard to say if she really finds anything for herself, as she seems to withdraw quite quickly, perhaps shying away from an overexposure to new experiences, putting up the usual front of distant indifference. Gengetsu remains a mystery, but it is certain that she maintains an almost na?ve curiosity towards new things and experiences, of which there are certainly plenty for a being like her.


Phew, this finishes Lotus Land Story. Seems I'll have to do most of the characters in Phantasmagoria of Dimensional Dream, though after that things seem to ease up.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on December 17, 2009, 11:15:54 AM
So, Gengetsu is like 'nothing' and she 'borns' when the heroine meets her?

...

Woah.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Seian Verian on December 17, 2009, 11:19:39 AM
I was wondering when you'd finally update this thread again. ...Well, since I'm posting, might as well make a comment on the update itself :V Hm... Pretty nice.  I think I want to listen to her theme again after reading that.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 17, 2009, 11:47:30 AM
So, Gengetsu is like 'nothing' and she 'borns' when the heroine meets her?

...

Woah.

My take on Gengetsu is probably quite a bit out there, since by this interpretation, Gengetsu is essentially created by the heroine. Whoulda thunk it?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on December 17, 2009, 11:54:17 AM
Well it is a dream world, so who knows? Maybe the heroines dream about Extra Stages and fighting with their inner Demons there.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on December 17, 2009, 12:59:37 PM
My take on Gengetsu is probably quite a bit out there, since by this interpretation, Gengetsu is essentially created by the heroine. Whoulda thunk it?
...
Holy shit
It all makes sense
The characters had nothing to do there
They were pretty bored by the looks of it after beating Mugetu
So they create a more powerful enemy to beat her up and have some fun
WHY IS THIS SO FITTING
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 17, 2009, 01:17:28 PM
Heh, Touhou seems to be getting more and more deconstructionist by the day. Jung states that dreams have one of two purposes: compensation or wish-fulfillment. Most likely not the former, Gengetsu is an archetypal enemy that was formed to accomodate the heroines' boredom. As a dream-created entity, her personality would have aspects of the heroines themselves, as Freud states something along the lines that every character in a dream is a fragment of the dreamer himself.

Finally, this being Gensokyo, it would be no surprise that the entity that was created acquired self-awareness.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on December 17, 2009, 08:09:16 PM
This makes two theories:

- Gengetsu is Not Real

-OR-

- Rin Satsuki is pretty much Real
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Moerin on December 17, 2009, 08:16:38 PM
Or...

GENGETSU IS RIN SATSUKI OH MY GOD!

...Ahem.

On a more serious note... I have to say that that's my favourite analysis thus far, Fightest.  I've always thought of Gengetsu (and, by extension, her sister) as something... Unlike anything else encountered in the entire series.  Like there was something... Different, something utterly alien about them.  The idea of her being a figment of the characters' imaginations made real is a very fascinating one to me.

Excellent work~  You really have topped yourself this time~
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Byakuren Hijiri on December 17, 2009, 08:24:06 PM
Can I say this is a nice thread? It is. Have not read everything, but once I have time, I will do so.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Nobu on December 17, 2009, 09:03:05 PM
Can I say this is a nice thread? It is. Have not read everything, but once I have time, I will do so.

This is pretty much how I feel. :V It's an interesting thing you've got going here, but there's soooo much to catch up on. @_@
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Miasma Melancholy on December 18, 2009, 04:28:26 AM
...

After reading this, Satori's theme really scares me now.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Montblanc on December 18, 2009, 09:41:59 AM
I read everything. Everything.

Mind=blown

Also, jumping on the bandwagon and requesting Reincarnation, Complete Darkness, Strawberry Crisis!!, VANISHING DREAM ~ LOST DREAM, Sailor of Time, and Now, Until the Moment You Die.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Miasma Melancholy on December 18, 2009, 04:55:29 PM
I read everything. Everything.

Mind=blown

Also, jumping on the bandwagon and requesting Reincarnation, Complete Darkness, Strawberry Crisis!!, VANISHING DREAM ~ LOST DREAM, Sailor of Time, and Now, Until the Moment You Die.

This, as well as Sleeping Terror.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 18, 2009, 08:17:02 PM
This, as well as Sleeping Terror.

Already called, yeah. It's gonna be in alternate themes.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: TheMasterSpark on December 19, 2009, 05:46:25 PM
What you've done so far is nothing short of awesome, Fightest. If you find some time and will to do it later, an interpretation of A Drunkard's Lemuria from Uwabami Breakers would be very cool as well. :)
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 22, 2009, 08:23:33 PM
Having finished Lotus Land Story I move onto Phantasmagoria of Dimensional Dream. At this moment, I feel like I'm grabbing the biggest bull with the pointiest horns in town, as the next character is... *drumroll*

Mima ? Reincarnation

More than anything else, this track feels like a collection of images of different aspects of Mima?s existence due to the immense contrast in tone between the three major parts. I should emphasize the degree of difference here, as I feel it says something about her ? the different stories that these parts tell show a completely different Mima every time, and because these are parts of one character it suggests an immense depth to her, the possession of an ancient trove of life experience that she holds clear in her mind, letting her age and knowledge shape her. I will explore the three different stories presented in this piece and hope to get some consistent characteristics out of them. Before I continue I?ll note that the piece does a single repeat where every part is the same bar the first one. The changed part I?ll ignore as it essentially serves as an extended introduction to the repeat?s second part.

The first part is the longest and most melodically developed of the three. The tempo is slow, although a degree of urgency is added by the quick accompaniment, and the mood is quite mysterious. The latter is carried out by virtue of the ending chord in each little phrase being a non-tonic chord, thus leading the listener along, offering a tidbit of resolution here and there, but never quite reaching a final goal. The key is mostly minor, making this segment feel quite somber, but, due to the lack of a powerful accompaniment, the atmosphere avoids being oppressive. It?s a very private piece of music, showing a ponderous thought process going on in one?s mind, each chord logically going from one to another, never making leaps of faith. All sorts of thought flit about, some darker than others, and the thinker is being very careful at keeping all these feelings and emotions within themselves. If I may make comparisons to the Major Arcana in Tarot, here Mima plays the role of the withdrawn Hermit, looking within herself for answers and resolutions. Here, she is utterly alone; the center of her own solipsistic universe, and the power that she gets from the resulting self-comprehension is undeniable.

The second part is far shorter, but far brighter and prominent. Punctuated with strong chords every second beat, this part is a powerful declaration, a dedicated march in a single, focused direction. The key is major and thus this entire segment carries a more positive tone. The instrumentation is what makes this part stand out, as the accompanying sound is close to that of a harpsichord, a baroque keyboard instrument whose characteristic is that its strings are plucked, never allowing for smooth transitions between notes. This part is Mima with a goal to be achieved. She will tend to be old-fashioned in her approaches ? more specifically, she established her approaches a long time ago and never found any reason to deviate from tried-and-true methods. Mima enjoys a good challenge, and will put her all into overcoming it. She will go out of her way to find these challenges, as overcoming them gives her a sense of satisfaction. She doesn?t hide these feelings, and is, in fact, very open about this ? probably the strongest emotions that she shows revolve around this - which might lead to others seeing her as being perpetually confrontational and even maybe belligerent when the challenges involve other people and their property. A good way to summarise would be to say that when she does something, she does it mind, body and soul.

The third part is Mima in all-out action. Focused and determined, the motif has exactly one rhythmic structure that enforces the obedience of the few broken chords that serve as the melody. The key is, once again, major, and the whole segment has an upbeat, maybe even a little careless feel due to the staccato notes. This carelessness combined with the determined focus gives a picture of Mima being utterly confident in herself to the point of being perhaps a bit foolhardy and arrogant. There is usually little malice in her actions, however, and make no mistake, her actions have been very thoroughly thought through.

In conclusion, the confident old-fashioned-ness that Mima projects suggests a great age to her, with her having a vast collection of experiences to draw from. Considering the contrast between the darker inner and lighter outer attitudes she has it is likely that she is still struggling with the issues that emerge from being as old as she is ? world-weariness and cynicism ? but her optimistic attitude and passion for difficulty and challenges easily carry her through these issues every time they arise.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on December 22, 2009, 09:31:50 PM
Being one of my most favorite themes from Touhou, I was thinking a lot about Reincarnation in the past. The three parts for me were like: The first part is about Mima when she was Alive, the middle part is her "Reincarnation" to a spirit, and the last part is herself Now.

Also, somehow from your depiction of Mima, I got a feeling that she's a lot like Marisa, or and older Marisa. What is interesting.   
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 24, 2009, 10:48:14 AM
shameless bump

I'll be on holidays from today onwards, so my extremely punctual and regular updates (:V) will be on hiatus until beginning January.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on January 05, 2010, 08:32:17 AM
Fightest Sign - Thread Resurrection Butterfly!

Ellen - Tabula Rasa ~ The Empty Girl

Even before reading her profile on the wiki, I would have pegged Ellen as not all there due to the usual criterion that comes up every once in a while - the constant repetition of a motif over and over without pause for interruption or development is present in this piece, especially towards the second half. Reading her as an almost-immortal who regularly loses her memory qualifies her for not-all-there status rather neatly, as well as conveniently providing the nature of her disorder. Interestingly, depending on interpretation, this can paint the whole piece in a rather heartbreaking tone, which I will discuss later.

The entire piece is strongly melody-centric. What little texture there is in the accompaniment is there for basic harmonic support, and this allows the melody to stand as the centerpiece throughout the whole thing. An interesting feature of the melody is that there are almost no meaningful pauses in it bar the one that separates the first and the second parts. The melody just keeps on going, never repeating itself, and expressing a good-natured, perhaps a little happy-go-lucky train of thought that never really idles in one place. It?s important to note that practically the whole piece is in major ? there is nary an ill intention in the whole thing. I feel these few properties paint Ellen as an ultimately positive, if somewhat airheaded person for whom the glass is always half-full.

What put me on edge are the final bits of the first half and the whole second half of the piece. Anyone will notice that the piece becomes far less varied, preferring to focus on one short motif, repeating it in a variety of textures and ?instrumentations?. It is as if the piece suddenly loses all personality and puts on a templated positive appearance, an idiot grin on the surface where there?s nothing underneath. In spite of this positive fa?ade, a truth begins to emerge ? Ellen?s condition is quite the curse. She will never develop as a person, as she never remembers the hardships she goes through, always retaining her charming naivet?, but, worst of all, neither will she remember all the positive things that happen to her either. She will never remember new friends, or personal achievements. The piece is incredibly aptly-named, for she will always remain a Tabula Rasa ? a blank slate, forever breaking the hearts of anyone whom she makes friends with and forgets them soon after, all the while remaining positive and cheery.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Flandrenonymous on January 05, 2010, 04:56:35 PM
Wow.

Considering the character comes off as simply an amusing ditz and comical, that's....very depressing.

Then again, when I listen back to the actual song, it doesn't exactly feel like it holds much cheer either, and it's not the limited PC-98 instrumentation that does it.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Sen on January 06, 2010, 02:21:52 AM
About your Reincarnation analysis, did you use the original version from PoD.D? Because I always get a much different feeling from the song than what you wrote. Were you listening to ZUN's depressing arrange from Dolls in Pseudo Paradise?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on January 06, 2010, 07:31:54 AM
About your Reincarnation analysis, did you use the original version from PoD.D? Because I always get a much different feeling from the song than what you wrote. Were you listening to ZUN's depressing arrange from Dolls in Pseudo Paradise?

I was using the core version, to my knowledge. Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hws4X0skF1Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hws4X0skF1Y). I've been trying my best to avoid remixes for the moment.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on January 11, 2010, 08:42:24 PM
Looking over this one, my thoughts are all over the place. This track wasn't the easiest to decipher and write about.

Kotohime - Maniacal Princess

This hard-to-crack piece, for me, reveals something about the nature of solitude and what effects it has on those experiencing it. Once again I will play the card of youkai being approximately similar to humans in terms of psychological construction (with an additional supernatural calling based on their nature) and try to understand what Kotohime is all about. I will note the wiki's statement that Kotohime is somehow "weird" to everyone who encounters her and attempt to decipher just what it is that is weird about her, considering our roster of other characters (in this game at least) being a vengeful ghost, an apparently immortal blank slate girl and the shrine maiden/witch comedy duo.

Throughout the piece, and in the first part in particular, the instrumentation jumps out as the first unusual aspect. They were prevalent in Mystic Square, but the resonant, echoing tones that are present here are so far unique, and indicative of someone ethereal, otherworldly. This feeling is reinforced by the curious reversal in melody and accompaniment - the former is usually high-pitched and the former low-pitched, whereas the opposite is true in this case. Such a change in roles certainly speaks of an unusual mentality, an approach to things that, whilst sensible from the point of view of the one doing it, is rather alien to outsiders.
The tone of the first segment is quite sombre, despite its twinkling accompaniment - the key is minor, the pitch of the melody low and there is very little variety in melody and accompaniment. All of these combine, to me, to speak of stagnation and solitude, an inability to develop due to lack of external influence. Oddly, this does not reflect poorly on Kotohime herself, as we'll see in the next part of the piece, and in the pseudo-loop section.

The second part undergoes a change of tempo and instrumentation, the main melody being played by an unusual mandolin-like instrument which makes the melody unusually lyrical, yet down-to-earth with its flat sound lacking in resonance. This section is very strongly convicted to itself, the tempo never dropping, the melody always holding strong due to the technique used to keep long notes going. It is as if this part shows Kotohime's dedication to her purpose that she maintains constantly, yet almost subconsciously. The wiki mentions that she collects things, and if we take into account the name of the track, it's entirely possible that she has a mania of sorts - probably a compulsive need to do something - that developed due to her solitary existence. She does not consciously fulfill her need to collect things, yet she does so with dedication - that's what this section says, to me. Curiously though, she holds no complexes relating to the issue - she is entirely comfortable with her situation, and this, I feel, is the core of her weirdness: she has an otherworldly intensity combined with inexperience with strangers, yet she is also a balanced person that is in touch with herself.

When I mentioned the pseudo-loop, I was talking about the part which essentially repeats the first two segments (first minute or so), yet adds a few embellishments here or there. This, to me, says that Kotohime doesn't grow outwards, but, rather, inwards, never really changing her appearance or mannerisms, but refining what she has, adding things here, trimming others there. She is a perfect hermit, withdrawn from society and alien to those she encounters, but in her own way she is totally in touch with herself and the nature around her.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on January 11, 2010, 10:24:48 PM
I didn't think it was possible for me to love Kotohime more but you've made it happen. This analysis brings a lot more depth to Kotohime and shows that she's not a maniac. I've always viewed her as "that eccentric girl that is into weird things but is actually rather smart".

For some reason this makes me think of Lucca from Chrono Trigger... but perhaps it's only because I can't think of a better fit at the moment.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on January 24, 2010, 09:59:49 PM
Holy crap, have I let this stagnate.

Kana Anaberal - Vanishing Dream ~ Lost Dream

According to the wiki, Kana is a poltergeist that came into existence from the mind of someone who is mentally ill. This is an important point to keep in mind when analyzing this piece, as the concept of a poltergeist, brought into contrast with the piece itself, really brings out her character features.

The piece is strongly lyrical, always emphasizing the melody over the accompaniment. The melody flows strongly and smoothly, with few interruptions whether by disharmony or actual pauses, and the accompaniment never rises above the melody. Now, one would expect a poltergeist to be mischievous at best, downright vengeful at worst - either way a melody associated with such a behaviour would be unsettling, overbearing, maybe even disorientingly unstructured; certainly not have the gentle, sometimes melancholic character of this piece. Immediately I am led to think that Kana is an oddity, someone who fights against her very nature, yet never seems to show it on the outside, occasionally only letting slip a hint of her internal struggle. Why does she do so? I believe that the structure and content of the piece can hint at that.

The piece has three characteristic parts, distinct from one another, yet sharing melodic and harmonic qualities that show that they all are parts of a single, undivided whole. Unlike that of the person that spawned her, Kana's mind is whole and healthy. Each melody is well-developed, increasing in complexity from the rather simple first part to the almost elaborate third part, which hints at a quickly developing character, one with reason and intelligence, able to learn and evolve from experience.

I would like to put forward my personal take on Kana's existence. Starting from the piece's name, which uses the word "dream" twice, and considering the nature of Gensokyo, I would postulate that Kana was created from the dreams of the mentally ill person. Jung states that a person's unconscious often manifests in dreams as the anima, and serves as a balancing factor for the conscious. He postulates that dreams serve as either wish-fulfillment or compensation to ensure the balance of the mind. Perhaps then, due to the strong unbalance of the mind, the anima - Kana - was thus able to manifest. In that case, it would be Kana's objective to fulfill those things that the mentally ill person could not - experiences, emotions, steady thought and reason. Hence the melodies are so calm and collected.

Then what about her being a poltergeist? It most likely stems from the mental illness as well: the person rails against the affliction, unable to fight it, and this hostility spreads initially into the nature of the dream-manifestation that is Kana.

Hence the bizarre duality in Kana's existence - her nature is to be angry and vengeful, but yet her function is to balance and aid. Acquiring self-awareness, this turns into a vicious internal struggle that she keeps strictly within herself. We see the suffering that this causes her in the calm melancholy across each segment of the piece, yet this never develops into anything stronger than that, showing remarkable mental strength.

Thus Kana wanders, experiencing exotic places and many emotions, responding to them with an enthusiastic, but calm intelligence. All this she does to perform her role - that of a guiding and aiding entity, a weight on the other end of the balance, to a single, ill person. We do not know if her efforts are rewarded, yet she never complains or rebels against her lot. Perhaps the piece title is some indication - maybe she's even forgotten why she does what she does in the first place, losing touch with herself, her self-assurance through action fading, along with her own existence. Perhaps she will eventually disappear entirely.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on January 24, 2010, 10:15:18 PM
This reminds me of the EWI video WiNN did, where she does disappears at the end.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on January 29, 2010, 02:08:26 AM
Whoa. I did not think it was possible for me to like Kananananananana more than I already do, but that was pretty damn cool to hear about. She's calm and sane as opposed to whoever it was that created her. Interesting stuff.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Montblanc on January 29, 2010, 10:53:22 PM
I've always been of the opinion that Kana may have some Mental Unballance in her as well - not to wholly discredit your analysis at all, I think you did a fine job, and are mostly spot on with Kana.

But within the throws of her internal struggles, I believe it's very possible that some instability fractures are also present, which I would take to mean she is not completely sane herself, despite trying to be in order to fulfill her self-imposed purpose, as you put it.

I also think you could have touched a bit more on her lonely nature - if you've never played PoDD, Kana's entire goal in the partaking of the events in that game is based around the fact that the girl who created her stopped paying attention to her (or as I theorize, stopped realizing she even existed), leading Kana to strike out in search of a new home.

In her ending, she requests that Yumemi find a new home for her, to which Yumemi ends up stationing her at the Hakurei Shrine, with Reimu (against Reimu's will). Kana is last seen haunting Reimu at the shrine, laughing joyfully while doing so, happy to finally have a place to call home again.

I pick up a strong melancholic feel in her song, and her character is definitely the lonely type. I doubt she'll be able to find any measure of lasting happiness with Reimu either, considering Reimu is liable to eventually ignore her too. It's kind of tragic to think about - Kana seeks a place where she can belong whilst trying to fulfill her inner purpose, and unfortunately, she can't seem to find that place. Add her struggles against her nature and the possibility of a fragile mind, and you've got quite a sad character.


That's my take anyway. I'm still very fond of yours, as well.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on January 30, 2010, 09:03:24 AM
Aeon: that is indeed one of the things I didn't really get into in my analysis - disillusionment. It's one of the possible results of Kana's plight and, as you mention, seems to be what actually happens pre-PoDD. I would still disagree that her sanity is questionable - she may have gone through a series of traumatic events, leaving her psyche raw and bruised, but she's still all there, I don't really find evidence in the piece of any of the tell-tale marks of insanity.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Montblanc on January 30, 2010, 01:30:18 PM
I find a subtle mark of instability (not necessarily insanity) in her character, as opposed to her theme.

It's reasonable, seeing as how she was projected from a girl who herself was unstable - while she could in fact be a balance to this, leading one to assume she is wholly sane, I doubt she has it in her capacity to be completely stable simply due to who created her. She also seems to hold her wish as a matter of grave importance to her, according to her dialogue, and is presumably willing to go to great lengths to achieve it.

To me, at least, her theme does seem to carry a subtle tone of something being amiss with her, mainly in the introduction.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: kaguya_hime on February 04, 2010, 10:33:38 AM
Satori Maiden,like some melodies in Castlevania,dance like no one's watching.
I prefer the 3rd Eye above all others to some extent> <
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Radaxen on April 02, 2010, 06:35:40 PM
@tc

I like your analysis on many of the themes, but some my opinions are slightly different. By actually playing the themes (on piano) in addition to listening to them for background melodies and such, some themes seem more complex than they seem and others, simpler than I would have thought. Though I don't think I can totally express my opinions for the themes as intricate as you do.

I'm going an analysis of one of my favourite themes here. Pardon if some parts are inaccurate, I'm doing the analysis from memory of the themes by not actually listening to them.

The Ancient Venerable Battlefield - Suwa Foughten Field

This theme, thought at first didn't appeal to me much, already signified to me a special vibe to it at first hearing. It has a grand opening intro, coupled with wind sound effects and syncopated drumbeats. A short 4-bar phrase, then an even more grand repetition of this phrase, which connects into one high note sweeping down into the second part. This second part (broken octaves) doesn't start at the bar, but simultaneously while the sweeping section is about to end. It's like a tunnel funneling into the more simple but mysterious section. I always imagine the beginning signifying the presence of Kanako, a power to reckon with, an extrememly fitting boss aura. The broken octaves part is complemented by the piano, which is supposedly musically more important (since the broken octaves is repeating). This sudden more tranquil feeling brings about the landscape, the scenario, where you meet Kanako. The wind blowing across with leaves scattering around, the mighty onbashira in the vicinity, the 'Ancient Venerable Battlefield'. It then proceeds to a very recognisable part, in which, I don't really know how to describe. But the 'dah-dah, da, dah, duuuh-dah' rhythm is surely memorable to me, and it gives this very imposing feeling to the listener. It's like Kanako charging up her power for some attack. In fact, every time I hear this I'm reminded of Kanako starting the pattern of her Mountain of Faith spellcard, in which the rings expand out before flying off. Every 2 bars of this rhythm, a new outer ring (of Mountain of Faith) appears, bigger than the last, adding to the multicoloured destruction about to expand and disintegrate. This then leads to the next part, which, though it only played once in the whole theme (ignoring repeats), is what I consider the main part:

This part is signified by ZUNtrumpets. A flowing melody, in minor key, and suddenly changes to 3/4 time. It's the embodiment of the presence of Kanako, using her powers to launch her main assault. To me, this is the main part of Kanako's theme. The previous part, the set-up, and the introduction of the environment, is for this main part to come in. To make it more obvious, the melody is changed to 3/4 time, but suprisingly not awkwardly. At the end of this main part comes the broken octaves again, albeit with a more surging bass this time, as for this time it is not introducing the surroundings to us. It lasts twice as long as the first time, with the chord changing the second time. After that, it links to the recognisable part again, and again it is different from the first time. There is a more echo-like feeling to the instrumentation, the sudden flash of the eye Kanako gives you for lasting so long in this battle. This time, the notes surge even more, higher at the end, but instead, it all suddenly disappears:

Now this next part, more quiet, and yet melodic but unfitting of what has happened so far, is more like a flashback to Kanako's past. In fact, what fits this part so well is this youtube video I watched of the EWI version of this song. It is no longer Kanako of the present, but the Kanako of the past, and what she did to triumph Suwako. In between the phrases are high notes decending down, and rising up again, showing the all-knowing brain of the Goddess. The second time this part repeats, it gives a even more 'nostalgic' feeling, with the faster bass notes and added rhythmic 'clap' every 2nd and 4th beat. It then surges back, into the mood we had in the beginning, jolting back to the present. This next part is signified by ZUNtrumpets again, but its elegance in the melody is there. Kanako is using what she had learned to counter her faults. This is signified by the bass part, which actually is still continuing from the previous part, though it's not obvious because of the ZUNtrumpets overpowering them. But overpowering them is what they should do, while the continuing bass part from the 'past' is going on. It then surges high and mighty into a finale-like theme, with strong echo'd drumbeats to back up. However, instead of finishing, it dwindles back into the broken octaves, quiter than the second time, more mysterious than the first time (perhaps because it's in a different key). The wind effects from the introduction are back. It's like the battle is over, and Kanako no longer lingers around the surroundings, but openly shows her true non-imposing self. At the end of this part, it loops back to the 'recognisable' part, but usually I end here if I'm playing the piano version of this piece (which I can't do justice), because that last chord, though not a perfect cadence to end the theme, brings about a peaceful vibe to it, after all the trouble in the past which has brought this Goddess to what she is now, and today.

My opinion relates more to the actual instrumentation rather than linking the piece to the character, but usually my imagination when a theme is playing is when the character is actually moving around doing what it should and would instead of just standing there. Refering to this, Kanako moves a lot, but in the end, she is in reality a very knowledgeable person who knows who to confront and who to trust.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Helion on April 02, 2010, 07:00:10 PM
Fightest, there is no better way to tell you my appreciation than to say that this thread is in my bookmarks.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on April 27, 2010, 03:14:19 PM
Holy crap, what's this, an update? Yes it is, ladies and gentlemen. Yes it is. Feeling a bit rusty, hope it makes a modicum of sense.

Rikako Asakura - Visionary Game ~ Dream War

This piece displays a truly staggering amount of variety that conceals a straightforward, yet truly vital character core - an intense drive to achieve that borders on tunnel vision. Seeing that Rikako is a scientist, it is no wonder that major parts of her character are an unwavering dedication to her work and a reliance on both methodical and creative thinking. Unfortunately, this leaves lacking in empathy and it is entirely likely that she has suppressed her own emotions as something she thinks of as extraneous factors that impede progess. I will try to illustrate these points part by part.

The introduction segment is an entire section unto itself. A somewhat demure affair, it introduces a pattern that will be kept throughout most of the piece - the melodic line sits in the middle of the musical range, with accompaniment both in pitches both lower and higher than itself. Tension is introduced into this section by the melody's constantly-increasing pitch, as if a pressure steadily, inoxerably building with no outlet, threatening to explode at the slightest provocation.
I get the image that Rikako is someone to entertain many trains of thought at once, something evident from the low- and high-pitched accompaniments - as if her central ideas are always contrasted and compared to a wide range of variations across the scale to keep them well-centred. The building tension and pressure mentioned before suggest a frustration or impatience in Rikako, however - despite her wish to maintain a cool and collected emotional state, she most certainly has trouble keeping her mind constrained.

Eventually, unavoidably, the tension and pressure explode. Both accompanying lines, higher and lower, burst out into a blazing tempo, far overtaking the stumbling, syncopated central line. It is as if every mental process that Rikako is trying to keep under control just breaks free, overtaking the demure central line and leaving it far behind. From this point on, this section is about Rikako's struggle against herself, her fight to bring her out-of-control thoughts back into line. The melody does so slowly, first sounding low, to overcome the lower accompanying line, then rises in pitch to stand against the higher accompaniment. With this, the melody is back in control, slowing down into its measured pace for a short interlude, as if to take a break from the previous struggle.

The next section (we're at 1:37) shows another part of Rikako. A simple 4-bar melody repeats over and over before switching to a different key but maintaining structure. I've always mentioned that such dogged repetition suggests an unusual mental pattern, and, in this case, I believe that this shows Rikako's intentional suppression of emotional input to achieve this unnaturally-focused state. I believe this is supported by the inklings of what may be a melodic line that barely shows through on the third and fourth repetitions of the 4-bar melody, both before and after the key change. The melody never truly shines through, showing the strength of self-control that Rikako possesses.

Afterwards we get a full repetition of the track, sans introduction, something that reinforces the character that we saw on the first play-through. Then what is the section that plays at the end, completely new and unexpected? A free-moving, almost bounding ostinato combined with a somewhat hidden, yet clearly strong and audible melodic line - both suggest to me a self-indulgence of sort, a release from one's own imposed limitations to allow one to just let go and see what the heck happens next. It is truly this part that shows us that Rikako is still human, no matter how machine-like she might try to be.

Thus we have Rikako, a human being with an incredible mind that she can only just keep in check. Perhaps she has decided that blocking out emotion and free thought is the way forward, to become the perfect scientific machine, but it is evident that she still wishes to let her hair down, as it were, every once in a while, a just let it all go to hell.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Solais on April 27, 2010, 03:52:52 PM
Holy crap, what's this, an update?

\o/

Greatness!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Seian Verian on April 27, 2010, 05:24:40 PM
Yay, update~! ...And an awesome one at that. I am not disappointed by what you put out on this after so much time.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Kuma on April 27, 2010, 08:16:00 PM
By the way, wich of the new songs from Double Spoilers would you say is most likely to be Hatate's theme?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on April 27, 2010, 09:03:31 PM
By the way, wich of the new songs from Double Spoilers would you say is most likely to be Hatate's theme?

Ain't heard any of them! Do you have links?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Kuma on April 28, 2010, 09:26:35 PM
Ain't heard any of them! Do you have links?

Sure 
It's a playlist with all the songs I think. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YDmLYwVqWs&feature=PlayList&p=1051EF356D5FEC59&playnext_from=PL&index=1&playnext=2)

Also, would you think of doing the "Fake character"'s themes? (Mitori's One Way Exccelorator (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSltsFxJNZw&feature=watch_response_rev) and Sasha's The Fake With High Quality (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaxo3lG49eY&feature=related))

[ruro]fixed some broken links[/ruro]
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: RainfallYoshi on April 29, 2010, 03:54:02 AM
As always I love your interpretations on these. <3

Hurry up and get to Chiyuri!  :V
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: necorelli on May 02, 2010, 02:55:29 AM
I LOVE YOU. Seriously, the music is what got me into Touhou. Not UN Owen though. I found out through the PCB soundtrack. Nice analysis'.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: VIVItheFujoshi on May 02, 2010, 08:24:13 AM
oh,our fab music anailsis is return!
...
waiting for Chiyuri,Yumemi...and please this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02q4YVg6cPE ...who is from ZUN, originally for the edition of CoLA in book but ended like a Kourindou-Rinnosuke theme for Touhou Unreal Mahjong (the edition of the book was retrased some years and only now will appears in this spring...i want who new song will appear, then) i want know how  many secret things of Rinnosuke you can discover in this song.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 17, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
And we're back! For as long as it'll take me to get through Ten Desires, anyway. I've got the first write-up nice and ready on a different computer, so I'll upload that within a day. For the meantime, I'll talk about the music of Ten Desires in general.

The impression I get is that ZUN spent a lot of time experimenting with his approaches and devices in 12, and came up with a lot of interesting ideas that, in one way or another, lacked a certain degree of polish. I am talking mostly about the stage music that, whilst still keeping ZUN's distinctive melodies, included unusual elements compared to the more "typical" stage music of 11 and, to an even greater degree, 10.

With 13, I'm really feeling that ZUN's more in control, and has a larger repertoire of musical devices than before. The stage themes in Ten Desires have a strong personality, and A Small Desire's Starry Sky is nothing short of phenomenal. That said, I feel that the boss themes this time around are a weak area - they have drive and personality, certainly, but none really strike me in any way or another. True Administrator is probably the worst culprit here, not only seeming to not know what it wants to be, but also actually being easily half as long as any other final boss theme due to the what is essentially a loop at 1:15.

In other comments, I've had a few requests come in for analysis of stage themes, but I'm afraid I won't do those unless they're something I really like and don't mind listening to over and over again. There aren't too many of these, but Ten Desires has significantly added to this list.

I will not be continuing with character analyses for the pc-98 touhous because, frankly, I hate chiptunes, and I've run out of exceptions.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on November 17, 2011, 06:46:26 PM
W-wait, no Yumemi?

SCREW THIS I'M LOCKING THE THREAD AGAIN >:(

Looking forward to Ten Desires analysis regardless. :<
[/size]
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 18, 2011, 09:05:18 AM
Kyouko Kasodani - Youkai Girl at the Gate

Perhaps appropriately for a sound-and-voice-themed character, we see very little of Kyouko in this piece, but we most certainly hear a great many aspects of her. Indeed, this is unsurprising: Kyouko is a newcomer to her new
abode - the Myouren temple - and is no doubt wary of seeming obtrusive. On the other hand, her very embodiment is that of mountain echo, of sound and of voice - she cannot help but be heard where ever she might go.

Our first impression of Kyouko is the 20-second introduction, filled with diminished chords and tritones - very atonal and impenetrable, rigidly-structured and presented with little melody to follow. This, of course, is not her personality - we first hear her in the middle of reciting her sutras, drowning out everything else that might be happening around us, proudly proclaiming wisdom to the rest of the world, regardless of who might be listening. There is a small amount of comedy in her recital, with the exaggerated and overdrawn emphasis notes on strong beats that tells us that Kyouko might be pious, but she is not solemn in her belief, and is ready to take things with an appropriate grain of salt.

The second part, then, provides quite a contrast to the confidence that we heard in the first. Instead, we get a subdued bass line and a halting, uncertain melody. Gone are the trumpets, replaced by an unlikely flute, giving us a windy, echoing segment that seems almost barebones in its instrumentation. It seems unnecessary to delve too deep into Kyouko's psyche to bring out the root of this transformation - the piece attempts to evoke the spirit of a desolate mountainpeak, where no doubt Kyouko spent a portion of her life before descending to the Myouren temple. It is natural to feel doubt and isolation in Kyouko's situation, where she can never be sure that her sutras - her passion and devotion - ever reach anyone who can appreciate them.

However, the trumpets soon join in, heralding the inevitable mood change to tell us that Kyouko is not one to wallow in such moods for too long. And the change comes, giving us an energetic - if not always major - melody, its confidence and determination restored with a steady rhythm. The third part of the piece portrays Kyouko as calm and sensible, rarely making leaps in the melodic line, always favouring long, tied notes over staccato passages. She is not above enjoying herself, however, letting a little whimsy free every so often.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on November 23, 2011, 05:53:43 PM
Yoshika Miyako - Rigid Paradise

The most curious thing in this small piece is that its two most distinctive-sounding parts - the opening and the melody that appears later - are, in fact, very closely alike. There can be no doubt that this similarity forms the core of Yoshika's concept and character.

When the piece starts we are thrown into a very unusual - for ZUN - set of unmistakable harmonic minors. I cannot help but note that ZUN himself comments that this has given the opening an "Egyptian" feel, which seems all too apt, considering the Ancient Egyptians' extensive religious rituals regarding death and burial.
It is ironic, then, that Yoshika openly flaunts her refusal to stay dead in the comic exaggeration of the presentation of the opening: the instrumentation is loud and brash and the very short length of the segment being repeated over and over again almost makes it sound like Yoshika is taunting the listener.

No doubt finding herself very amusing, Yoshika almost seems to burst out laughing at her own joke from 0:10 to 0:24, before going back into her same old routine. Perhaps Yoshika is not the brightest or most-refined match in the book with her inability to keep a straight face while telling her only joke or even to come up with a new one, but one must admit that her enthusiasm can be infectious, no doubt transmitted through a bite of hers.

At 0:48 Yoshika has grown tired of the one-zombie comedy act and her true nature shines through. The listener will note that the melody we are presented with is actually extremely similar to that of the opening - we simply move to a melodic minor as opposed to a harmonic one and a single note in the second bar's third beat goes down instead of up. Perhaps unwittingly, Yoshika demonstrates to us that her mocking portrayal of death and burial are, in fact, extremely close, inseparable from her.
It seems Yoshika has experienced a change in herself upon becoming zombified and refuses to acknowledge her changed nature, staving away the inevitable realisation by what amounts to cruelly mocking herself. It is hard to say whether she is simply embarassed at her unflattering undead form or whether the resentment runs deeper, but it is likely closer to the former - as the opening, so is the melody of the second part very short, repeating and repeating to show us that Yoshika is not one for an insightful, extended thought or a deep grudge.
Perhaps Yoshika is simply afraid of change, never straying far from her comfort zone and returning every time to a familiar starting position.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Tengukami on November 24, 2011, 02:03:58 AM
It seems Yoshika has experienced a change in herself upon becoming zombified and refuses to acknowledge her changed nature, staving away the inevitable realisation by what amounts to cruelly mocking herself. It is hard to say whether she is simply embarassed at her unflattering undead form or whether the resentment runs deeper, but it is likely closer to the former - as the opening, so is the melody of the second part very short, repeating and repeating to show us that Yoshika is not one for an insightful, extended thought or a deep grudge.

Yeah, I felt her theme reflected a fair more mentally sharp character than she's normally depicted. Your write-ups are spot on, as usual.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Excelsus on November 28, 2011, 03:23:15 PM
I want to ask about yukari, did you ever tend to think that yukari isnt always female?
I mean look her current appearance might not be her true form after all, and s/he or maybe it just appears as a female because s/he or it choose to be that way. What do you think?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: ふねん1 on November 28, 2011, 03:48:01 PM
I was beginning to wonder if I'd see this topic updated again. Nice to see it back in action, and with some pretty apt analyses of the new bosses to start off. I know Yuyuko's not a new character, but will you be doing Ghost Lead too? Considering the different circumstances in which you're fighting her this time, perhaps it would serve to shed a bit of new light on Yuyuko, or even justify some aspects of your Border of Life article.

Interesting that you also think that way about True Administrator. I've never taken any actual music theory classes (despite having played piano since I was a kid), so it's not like I can pinpoint why I feel that way, but I wasn't too impressed with that song when I first heard it either. I'll certainly be looking forward to your writeup later.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: J.O.B on November 30, 2011, 05:33:17 AM
The only problem that I have with True Administrator is the fact that it takes a bit too long to get to the point. But when it does, oh my gog oh my gog oh my gog oh my gog oh my gog oh my gog.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: AJS on November 30, 2011, 08:34:48 AM
Wow, really amazing interpretations.  It's fascinating to read through all of them to see your rationale as you pick apart some of my favorite songs. :D

Listening to those songs, it's already very apparent to me that the songs are jam-packed with emotion and meaning, both of which I really only "feel" while listening.  It's incredibly difficult for me to describe this "feel", yet I think you managed to somehow transform it into words, and articulated them perfectly.

Overall, I think you excellently captured the essence of each character's personalities with their themes.  I love how you also managed to extrapolate on what was present in the themes to speculate on characteristics that aren't immediately noticeable.  Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 13, 2011, 06:22:12 PM
I want to ask about yukari, did you ever tend to think that yukari isnt always female?
I mean look her current appearance might not be her true form after all, and s/he or maybe it just appears as a female because s/he or it choose to be that way. What do you think?

I have little reason to think that Yukari portrays herself as something she is not from either Necrofantasia or her portrayals in canon works. What makes you doubt Yukari's form?
I know Yuyuko's not a new character, but will you be doing Ghost Lead too?

My answer is a solid, resounding maybe.

The only problem that I have with True Administrator is the fact that it takes a bit too long to get to the point. But when it does, oh my gog oh my gog oh my gog oh my gog oh my gog oh my gog.

Hm. I think True Administrator gets through its best parts way too quickly on account of being half-length.



Seiga Kaku - Old Yuanxian

The magic in this piece comes from its untiring pace and its ability to juggle its instrument selection to perform whatever trick is necessary - throughout the piece the melodic line is carried by trumpet, flute and piano, and each is equally strongly used as support when not on centre stage.

The introduction, from the beginning to 0:15, sets a characteristic tone with high-pitched trumpets playing diminished intervals that go up - a move that can only increase tension for the listener. A strange inclusion of flutes both softens the impact of the initial trumpet blast but also sets the melody to go into a satisfying cadence - one that never occurs due to the trumpets hijacking the line and returning tension to its heightened state. This is a highly invasive opening, grabbing the listener and never letting go, forcing them to follow at the piece's own pace. Indeed, one can even hear a certain malice in the opening, the electrical guitar's bass line providing a deep and ominous backdrop. Indeed, Seiga is not a kind character, at least on first glance. Her first impression is of hostility, hatred and an insidious desire to control through terror. The last time we have heard of such unabashed nastiness was back in Mystia's Deaf To All But The Song, which, coincidentally, also a piece about a malevolent trickster.

There is a small break in the attack at 0:15 that lasts until 0:28, but, really, it serves much the same purpose as the small interludes in the introduction - providing just not enough time for the listener to get comfortable before coming back to the introduction segment. It is interesting how this second segment undergoes three transformations in the duration of the piece, and, while its initial form is subtly worrying and almost human in its vulnerability (flute only), each subsequent transformation (flute and trumpet, flute and piano, flute, trumpet and piano) makes a mockery of the listener for feeling reassured and sympathetic by what is, in hindsight, obviously a cruel trick.

At 0:50 the game ends. There is a certain non-committalness in the piano's repeating of the same chord pattern over and over again, as if Seiga has grown tired, much like a cat might get tired of chasing a hapless mouse and now idly bats at its exhausted prey. It is notable, of course, that Seiga does not let go, and she is certainly not yet done - her malice, still rasping away in the electric guitar, is clear as day, bubbling up at 1:10 to burst at 1:17, where we see what I would describe as Seiga's more private nature.

Starting with much the same chord sequence as the pattern in 0:50, the melody at 1:17 expands upon itself tenfold. The trumpets, before used to instill discomfort and terror are now the centre tool to express a maddeningly charming, lyrical melodic line, full of confidence and power. Even the electric guitar is suddenly overwhelmed by the outburst of every other instrument at Seiga's disposal. It is no surprise that the bored Seiga and this strange, never-before-seen one share so much, as both show her when she is not out to wreck someone's day. Instead, we see a Seiga thrilled to be who she is, easily accepting her actions and her nature. Once again I pull out Gensokyo+ to state that Seiga's chosen function in life must be to terrify people to keep them honest and humble, and to remind them that there are things out there that can easily do worse.

It seems clear, then, that Seiga has found her true calling in life and loves every minute of it. She has a cruel streak that never seems to become truly harmful, so that others get to suffer for Seiga's job is then a welcome perk for the hermit.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: De La Witch on December 14, 2011, 06:23:35 AM
Thread revival!? Do you believe in Miracles!? YES!! Great work so far, Fightest. By the by, if you have time after your TD write ups, do you think you have time to go back and do a write up of Youkai Mounatin-Mysterious Mountain? I would be eternally grateful. Nice to see you back and at em', and thanks!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: J.O.B on December 14, 2011, 06:41:57 AM
I actually agree with what you said about Seiga (and also about True Administrator too).

Also, speaking of True Administrator. Do you think it sounds cool and powerful? It doesn't have to sound epic to be either of them.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fightest on December 14, 2011, 09:00:48 AM
Also, speaking of True Administrator. Do you think it sounds cool and powerful? It doesn't have to sound epic to be either of them.

Administrator is so close to being an utterly excellent boss track. Its single failing is what brings it down, and that's the central part, which, I feel, simply doesn't work - the stuttering and jumpiness makes it feel disjointed, and not in any way that can be considered good. It just breaks the pace. Also, I am having trouble forgiving its half-length-ness.

To continue dodging your question - Cosmic Mind is cool and powerful and, I would judge, non-epic in the internet-meme sense. Solar Sect is actually epic in that sense. Administrator, in its best parts, is closer to the latter than the former, which is why the middle shift is so jarring.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Ibaraki Ibuki on December 26, 2011, 09:37:26 PM
I really like your musical analyses; they're pretty thought-provoking. Can't wait for your thoughts on Futatsuiwa from Sado.
It's unfortunate you're no longer reviewing the PC-98 themes; I was kinda hoping to comment on Mystic Oriental Love Consultation (which I personally think nicely illustrates Reimu's character).

One quick question: is there a thread where someone does this sort of analysis for stage themes?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Piranha on January 04, 2012, 09:31:02 PM
Thanks for your analyses, they made me like especially Yuyuko and Kanako even more than I already do.
It's really interesting to see/read your interpretations. :D
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: pineyappled on January 24, 2012, 01:33:33 AM
Musume can mean both daughter and girl. Anyways, Cirno's theme is pefect for her, IMO. It sounds like an adorable dumbass who sits around feezing fogs for amusement. Not elegant at all, but it's better that way.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: iK on February 06, 2012, 08:11:26 AM
I don't feel that True Administrator represents Miko very well, but it is extremely fitting for the nature of the battle. The explosive fireworks and continuously flowing spell cards accentuate the repetitive pounding nature of the song, and the intense build ups and drops almost always fit with whatever is happening in the battle.

I feel that Starry Sky fits Miko's character more personally. I'm not a musical analyst, but the entire song sounds contemplative and concise, thoughtful and manipulative, as if Miko knows exactly what makes people tick and how to exploit it- something that's backed up by her backstory and ability.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Starxsword on February 06, 2012, 09:20:50 AM
But she doesn't know what makes people tick. That is what makes Youmu's route interesting, it is because you find out that her reliance
on her ability blinds her to correctly judge some people.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Nekomata-chan on February 21, 2012, 08:46:19 PM
Am I the only person that thinks Youmu seems a bit mixed in the different games? There's the Mystic Temple disciplined Youmu, then there's the Hiroari stab-crazy Youmu.
Also, Yukari's PCB theme makes it sound like she isn't even trying, but somehow that makes her better than you. The introduction is like she just gapped herself out of nowhere, and there are periods where it sounds like she's just lazing about.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: YukkuriPaste on February 26, 2012, 04:20:38 PM
Am I the only person that thinks Youmu seems a bit mixed in the different games? There's the Mystic Temple disciplined Youmu, then there's the Hiroari stab-crazy Youmu.
Also, Yukari's PCB theme makes it sound like she isn't even trying, but somehow that makes her better than you. The introduction is like she just gapped herself out of nowhere, and there are periods where it sounds like she's just lazing about.
Eh, kinda.
I think it fits the battle more than the character.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Nekomata-chan on March 01, 2012, 11:22:52 PM
Eh, kinda.
I think it fits the battle more than the character.
True, but maybe it's a mixture of character and battle mood.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: _cf on April 10, 2012, 08:00:39 PM
Eagerly waiting for the end of Ten Desires analysis. The introduction of Legend of the Great Gods is pretty much unlike anything I ever heard from ZUN before and I really don't know what to think about that one. It surprised me the first time I heard it and still sounds very strange whenever I reach Futo.

Regarding Futatsuiwa from Sado, what I find immediately apparent is how danceable and fun (in a, say, Bluegrass sense) that theme is. When you get to the extra bosses, they are usually interested on terrorizing (Flandre), awing (Ran and Yukari), unsettling (Koishi or Nue) or saddening (Mokou) you. Suwako is obviously happy in her theme, but she's just a bit too frantic. Mamizou instead throws some kind of youkai hillbilly dance at you. What a culture shock.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: TobyTse99 on August 04, 2012, 08:51:14 AM
Whew, I finally went through all those pages (in two days).

This is a good thread. I honestly didn't expect such an objective opinion piece.

I really agree with you with Lunar Dial. And it's such a shame that it doesn't get real attention.
(Flowering Night is to be blamed, but it's awesome as hell, so Lunar Dial just "died" from that)

Also, some of my observations and things you might want to know.

1. Wind and Aya do have a relationship as Aya's power is to manipulate wind. I am surprised no one mentioned this.
2. Colorful Path is probably the only window theme for Reimu that is not remix from PC-98, so the Gensokyo+ may only apply to this theme. And it's a really gentle piece.
3. In Lord Usa's Elemental Flag the time signature is 6/4, it's like a playful Tewi adding extra notes after each bar. And I think this is somehow similar to Cinderella Cage ~ Kagome-Kagome, except Cinderella Cage adds a bar after every 2 bars. (1:15) However this might just be a coincidence, as the folk song Kagome Kagome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kagome_Kagome) happens to be the same rhythm. Maybe ZUN just put in Kagome, then realized that the "extra bar" worked great as a happy rabbit's signature thing.
4. In Reincarnation, at exactly this timestamp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nXXtYKRevI&feature=player_detailpage#t=16s), there are consecutive 4-note-melody-combos. I have noticed that the first set-of-four is more "broken", as the notes ends one instant before the normal time. Then when the melody continues, every time it repeats, the same "broken" effect appears. I am guessing being "just an evil spirit", becoming an important role in the series adds pressure to her. Complete Darkness is when she thinks this is the end of her appearances in the series so she wants to make it a great final effort. Yep, this makes perfect sense!
5. Am I the only one who likes True Administrator? If you say bad things about Miko she is going to perma-ban you.  Joke aside, somehow the climax of the song always ends up near when Miko says "Enough playing around!", where she unleash a really awesome-looking non-spell attack. I really like True Administrator for it's simplicity and power it throws at the listener. And just a small note, Miko is The Prince Shotokou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Sh%C5%8Dtoku), which all Japanese can recognize in 0.1 nanosecond, and all the spells are some kind of reference from their history textbook. All the players need is a really powerful BGM to allow them go all OMGOMGOMG-ish.

Pardon me for my bad English. It's a hard language for a regular Hong Kong otaku student.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Zork787 on November 26, 2012, 07:42:13 PM
dunno if this has been posted yet (too lazy/tired to search :V) buuuuut

Unzan's theme aanyone? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCK6vHdRQCQ) :P
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Watari on June 06, 2013, 12:24:15 AM
dunno if this has been posted yet (too lazy/tired to search :V) buuuuut

Unzan's theme aanyone? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCK6vHdRQCQ) :P

Is it just me or does it sound rather Megaman-ish..?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Darkness1 on July 14, 2013, 04:48:09 PM
This was a good read, even though I skipped some pages it was interesting and enjoyable as a whole. Looking into the characters themselves using the feel of their themes is something I would like to see appear more in fanon.
In case of alternative themes I would say that Reimu and Marisa would be interesting to look into, especially because of their stupidly large amount of themes. Not saying that anyone should, just that it's interesting how the two main characters can be that developed, if we can treat a characters theme like a small story.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Yuka.k on August 16, 2013, 07:06:58 PM
Wow!

Nice work there, Is not usual that someone do something like this. But Is still a work that deserves alot of effort
I liked this a lot, was sure interesting
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: apeache on November 17, 2013, 10:35:14 AM
I think stage themes should be done too as it may represent the midboss. I am requesting "The Dark Blowhole" for starter!
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Failure McFailFace on December 04, 2013, 01:06:39 AM
Sorry for bump, but this is relevant:

In HM, there are 2 pre-battle themes: A Popular Place and An Unpopular Place.

The former has 4/4 time, while the latter 6/8 (2 over dotted quarter note) time.

An Unpopular Place's time signature makes the song feel slightly drunken. Only a drunk person will stumble into such an unpopular place.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: EndlessBlue on January 25, 2014, 10:00:51 PM
Personally, I think Border of Life (first arrange) carries triumphant and grace but also sadness. Maybe Yuyuko has realized the outcome of her battle but still fights on. Or she does have lingering sadness from her death. Truly an amazing character.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Fujiwara no Mokou on March 03, 2014, 08:25:48 PM
Interesting analysis. After I've read your review of Reach for the Moon, Immortal Smoke, I could certainly see where you came from when you said that the busy, unrelenting melody representing that one thing that was fire. What I liked even more is what you mentioned Mokou's fire (and the symbolisms it may imply) to be not the kind that is quick, like a bomb shell, but an elder enveloping blaze - one experienced and ancient. That is one aspect that I think many fans dismiss about Mokou. But after reading her chapter in Cage in a Lunatic Runagate, I think they may see she stems much more deeply than they thought.
But one note I'd like to make is that instead of fire, I hear this melody portraying time. This quick paced, repeating melody representing time's unyielding march, with the hint of sadness as Mokou witnesses everything and everyone around her passing away as she stays and sees this world like some sort of twisted ride. But I also hear this search of identity Mokou was trying to find, as you put it in your analysis. I also believe Mokou to have forged herself her own personality, one that she can call "I" that isn't just a collection of her past memories and hatred.  I believe that in this personality she forged herself a powerful and wise elite. Maybe even a sage of the forest she lives in? I could feel this charisma that she made for herself in the game itself, and tied with the music and danmaku, I think three spellcards in particular, "Xu Fu's Dimension", "Ihakasa's Moon Curse", and "Hallow Giant Woo", best represent that theme.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Dragomir7 on June 22, 2014, 12:39:22 AM
Great analysis, you've given me new insights on many of the characters (in particular Yuyuko, Kanako, Tenshi, Kogasa and Byakuren). I'm not particularly avid of playing the games themselves, but your words sure make me understand better the way the characters appear, and their spell cards when played together with the music now.

It's a shame you're not continuing with the remaining boss themes of Ten Desires, Hopeless Masquerade and Double Dealing Character, or touching any of the stage themes. I've really enjoyed many of them (especially the stage 5 themes that often come with individual midbosses).  :(
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: R.P. on August 22, 2016, 03:04:22 PM
Is a shame this thread is more or less death, it was my favourite thread, the idea of analizing the themes of the character to draw more informations about them was a really good one, I remember that in an interview Zun said that he made the music before every thing else in his games so is not to much of a stretch to say that the musics shape the characters and the stories and this thread in a way explored this trait of the series,  I hope that someone will do something similar in the future
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Chill Observer on August 22, 2016, 11:36:26 PM
Is a shame this thread is more or less death, it was my favourite thread, the idea of analizing the themes of the character to draw more informations about them was a really good one, I remember that in an interview Zun said that he made the music before every thing else in his games so is not to much of a stretch to say that the musics shape the characters and the stories and this thread in a way explored this trait of the series,  I hope that someone will do something similar in the future
Yeah, it's pretty amazing how much of an impact music has on this game. The enemies are even (mostly) synced to the stage music. But what about the types of enemies, or even the patterns that are fired? Could that have something to do with the music, as well?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: the old guy on August 22, 2016, 11:39:35 PM
Does anyone actually know what happen to Fightest, he(?) seemed to have just dropped from the face of the earth one day and never came back.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: R.P. on August 23, 2016, 12:27:03 AM
Does anyone actually know what happen to Fightest, he(?) seemed to have just dropped from the face of the earth one day and never came back.
Just checked his Profile, he wrote last time in 2014 but apparently he come back sometimes since the last time he was active was in april 2016 

Maybe we should send him a Pm ?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on August 27, 2016, 08:05:46 AM
Does anyone actually know what happen to Fightest, he(?) seemed to have just dropped from the face of the earth one day and never came back.
I don't remember if he said he's specifically busy with something (I want to say university?), but also, it's life, as viewed from the internet. These things happen.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Josh29 on July 06, 2017, 11:35:10 AM
No, although not for lack of trying, mostly because I can never find decent piano arranges of the themes I like, and I don't have an ear for improvisation, so I needs me my sheet music. I did find playable sheet music for Septette recently, though, so if there's demand...

In other news, time to move on properly onto Mountain of Faith! As I mentioned before, I love the music here. It is also the last of "classic" ZUN before he goes all creative in SA and UFO.

Minoriko Aki ? Because the Princess Inada is Scolding Me

Unusual for a first boss theme, there is an immense amount of power emanating from the piece due to instrumentation, and its unrelenting tempo. Additionally, it has a touch of aloofness and, perhaps, cruelty, due to certain sound qualities, which I?ll get into later.

The introduction?s strength comes from loud, separated piano chords, each accented by the strong beats of a time signature with many strong beats ? 2/4 (C with a line down the middle for those who know what I?m talking about). The supporting acoustic guitar is an interesting touch, as the guitar is most commonly heard in Spanish and Latinoamerican dance music. The dance of these cultures (the Cha-Cha-Cha, the Tango etc.) is extremely harsh and precise, yet intimate and sensual. In fact, the introduction has a few unmistakable features from the Tango, giving me a previously unconsidered image of Minoriko ? a graceful, proud and powerful dancer, a harsh mistress that rewards loyalty with a dedicated affection. Castanets are optional, but absolutely appropriate.

That said, the single melodic part of the piece maintains the same rhythm as the introduction, swapping the piano for trumpet, keeping the guitar intact. To me, this is just the continuation of the dance that was started in the introduction. The biggest change is the switch from 2/4 to 4/4 time, allowing for fewer stronger beats to allow for a flowing melody, 8 bars long with a fair share of cadences and key transitions for a comparably short melody. These cadences demonstrate the emotion flowing off Minoriko - she is also of the type to show what she feels, when she feels it, very clearly. This show of emotion, however, is strongly embedded into that furious dance of hers, making it almost a part of her very self, making Minoriko as she is described here something indivisible, something elemental. I believe this is appropriate, considering the animistic nature of Shinto gods.

More than just a goddess of autumn harvest, Minoriko is the goddess of reaping what you sow, of reward for loyalty and punishment for lack thereof, a goddess of clear consequences to deeds done. She is impartial in her judgment, and may seem cold and distant for this, especially so if one incurs her karmic wrath, but she is just as capable of blazing passion should one be in her favour. Truly, there's no middle ground to her.

She should also wear a stunning tango dress, in autumn colours.  ;D

Ironic that you mention her as a dancer, considering her art shows her with two left feet.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: GenericArrangements on July 06, 2017, 12:52:51 PM
To be honest I have a few problems with that BPIiSM interpretation, but I did laugh at your joke (I found the two left feet thing funnier than I should've). That might've just been ZUN producing fantastic artwork as usual, although it does seems a bit too odd. That's something hard to screw up, so it might as well have been intentional. Touhou Wiki seems to think it's intentional, but only "supposed"ly.
maybe this has been confirmed and i'm just not informed enough
maybe this needs to be asked elsewhere


Also the person responsible for these analyses hasn't been active for quite a while so probably don't expect a response from them either.
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Pergold on November 08, 2017, 01:55:52 AM
Anybody realize that Inner Heart sounds like Gangsta's Paradise?
Title: Re: Characters, music, personalities.
Post by: Deftera Ikari on November 21, 2018, 11:06:42 AM
Eep. Here's to hoping Remi's just getting carried away.

In other news: Onwards!

Satori Komeiji ? Satori Maiden ~ 3rd Eye

What hit me after the third or fourth playthrough of this track is that both melodies present in the piece, discounting the connecting segment at 0:26, are actually quite pleasant. I?m going to contest you here, Solais ? the melodies, taken completely by themselves, feel really quite dance-like for the first one and extremely lyrical for the second. Although they carry a slightly bitter tone, they are certainly not threatening or mindscrewy. The mindscrew is completely carried by the accompaniment and instrumentation, and is ramped up by them to immense proportions. I?ll go over the content of the melodies first, as the most interesting parts lie indeed where the mindscrew is greatest.

The first melody has many strong beats, lots of ornamentation and syncopation to emphasise those strong beats. As I said before, this smacks of a dance to me, a fast-paced, whirling dance with lots of emphasis on steps and jumps. Considering the harmonies present (and I hesitate to make the comparison due to poor familiarity), this reminds me of Middle-Eastern dance music. Whether intentional or not, these kinds of harmonies might sound alien to those unused to it, for example some of us Westerners, thus painting Satori in an unfamiliar light, something we can?t associate with. Of course, fear of the unknown is probably one of the more animalistic emotions humans (and, I guess, humanform Youkai) have, so it is probably little wonder why Satori is so feared, not even taking into account her power. Of course, this means that many won?t notice the grace with which Satori holds herself, her quiet and strong dancer?s confidence.
This last bit is more of an afterthought, but the sort of dance that this melody bears similarities to is usually danced by men, so there could be a bit of masculinity in Satori, probably most prominent in her assertiveness in her introduction dialogue, where Satori demonstrates her dominance over the characters by holding a one-sided conversation with the characters by reading their every thought.

The second melody is quite straightforward in its harmony, with few odd tones, instead going for a minor key with a few detours into major to show sadness, longing, a certain depression. The Satori shown here is probably unhappy with her current situation, whether it is because of the way she?s seen by others or due to something more ephemeral. I would say it?s simply because she?s lonely, considering her only company for the last whoever-knows-how-long are not the sharpest tools in the shed.

The accompaniment and instrumentation are what really give Satori her ?oomph?. ZUN pulls out pretty much every trick in the book to make the listener uncomfortable and the sound disconcerting. The first melody starts off with a growling bass and the harshest acoustic guitar I?ve ever heard, cymbals, of course, providing sharp accents at the most opportune times. The first melody continues, and the guitar picks up, its completely cold sound having the potential to actually scare, since it really brings a lot of attention to itself, making it sound louder than it actually is. This is another of those animalistic things that seem to permeate Satori?s repertoire ? loud, sharp, high-pitched sounds tend to quicken the pulse, pushing the listener into action. Of course, the listener has no way to actually respond other than to turn the track off, so the helplessness combines with the adrenaline rush to actually create the feeling of fear. Remember that famous track from Psycho? This is much the same effect. You?re absolutely right here, Solais ? the fear is completely internal, created by the listener himself, with nothing to really inspire it other than some loud sounds.

The second melody does much the same, except this time with a loud bass, the minor key of the melody giving it a threatening tone. Its unique contribution to the mindscrew comes in the second repetition, where the melody?s played by two trumpets in a diminished interval, one that sounds just off a pleasant regular interval, once again making the listener squirm, completely uncaring about it.

Basically, Satori seems to be a master at freaking people the hell out, demonstrated by the variety of techniques the melody employs to do so. It?s clear that she does so consciously, so I feel she?s somewhat of a bully. She might lament this from time to time, and might even show regret, so there?s quite a bit of a complex going on within her, balancing the need to assert herself versus the want to have some more varied company. A large factor that pushes people away from her is their inability to understand her, so it?s probably simply a matter of time before others get more used to her, and she stops taking advantage of their weakness.

The chorus is what made me love the song, although it does give me some kind of eerie sadness feelings, is it corresponding to what I feel in real life all the time? I think so