Touhou: Awareness of Color Mafia. Day 3.

[Dorian White]

?For reasons that have already been stated? That's the problem, where is your content?
Your reason to suspect Massaca: Have been stated already.
Your reason to suspect O4fish: What Bard already said.
Your case on Zakeri: What Serela said.
I could go on like this.

So, do you see what I mean? If I leave out everything where you basically just agree with someone else then your content all game boils down to, a pork on Dan, ?Ehhhhhhhhh, Dorian said 'meta'!? and ?Where is Rawr??
And that's what you call scumhunting?

[NekoNekoRex]

So apparently I have to be constantly watching the thread at all times to make sure nobody can say anything i think before I do, huh?

Apparently it's wrong for me to get on people for having no content too?

[Bardiche]

So apparently I have to be constantly watching the thread at all times to make sure nobody can say anything i think before I do, huh?

Apparently it's wrong for me to get on people for having no content too?

I think it's unfair to present Dorian's argument this way. I think he makes a certain amount of sense: if all your cases are, "I don't need to say anything because everyone else already has done so", you have basically no original content yourself and are just piggybacking the opinions of others. For scum, that's a very comfortable position to be in, because you're always pushing cases while not being memorable in the slightest. This kind of aggressive behaviour works as a deterrent to look at how you basically have no defence against Dorian's accusations other than, "It's true, I have no original content".

I'd say Chaore is scummiest to me at the moment but I'd be willing to put a vote in on NNR for this questionable style of defence, alongside forgettable content.

[Conqueror]

Still slowly working through the thread. Some preliminary stuff.

The Dorian/NNR slapfight looks like a red herring. Dorian, your case on NNR looks like a lot of confirmation bias because from what I can tell, you could apply the same logic you used on NNR in #360 to a lot of other players in this game. I don't have strong scum vibes on either of them right now.

Also something is unsettling me about Dorian's miller claim. It seemed a little early to instantly claim 'hey I'm a miller guys don't bother copping me.' The voices in my head are saying Dorian may not be honest about this.

What's strange about claiming miller off the bat? It's pretty standard here to claim miller asap so this is a little strange.

Even if the no lynch or actiondan lynch were both favorable to scum i think schezo opting for the no lynch when both were pretty even on votes is suspicious. the hard defense from schezo from oarfishes case help 2

I'm interested in knowing why you auto-assume that Schezo opting for no lynch over lynching ActionDan points to Dan scum with Schezo instead of Schezo whiteknighting town!Dan. The reasoning for lynching Dan that people were pushing at the time was flimsy enough that there'd be a strong backlash against anyone who pushed the lynch through if Dan flipped town.

I also want to know how you flipped from this:

ignoring the fact that actiondan may or may not have a post restriction. why would i lynch action dan for having claimed anti town powers he obtains at some point? im pretty sure scum arnt that ballsy

on a kinda related note obtaining powers at a later point isnt that weird the same thing can happen to me two

to this:

##Unvote
##Vote: Actiondan

So far no one has claimed to have a post restriction so lets wait and see when more people post.
I'd feel that massaca and oarfish are ok town to me. no reason to hit dan with a post restriction and try to lynch him. only reason i could see this happening is if they knew he had some super cool role but thats pretty unlikely. this is also assuming actiondan would flip town.

since the logic doesn't make sense to me. people are saying why would scum hit dan over anyone else, but if you're going to ask that question, who would be a better target?

hes potential scum because in the off chance that
a. the post restriction was town given and they dont want to come out
b. it could have been self inflicted and in the event that he fucks up it could lead to the no lynch and make it out safe. he also mentioned getting anti town powers with the post restriction
im also pretty afraid after this action dan may get some kind of town clear later on int he future which could be bad since he isnt town confirmed.

I agree that dan isn't "confirmed town" (and I'd like him to post more because he's easy to read when he posts a lot) but a) there's practically no reason for a town post restrictor not to have claimed at that point in time given the huge mess it caused, and if you're assuming it's a self-inflicted role that gives him anti-town powers, why would scum get that role and how is that more likely than scum inflicting it on town?

[Conqueror]

##Vote: rawr
for now. I find his stance pretty disingenuous. Even if the post restriction issue doesn't make Dan town, I don't see why it makes Dan scum.

Although it's interesting to note that no one has come out with being post restricted today. Could mean a one-shot role.


Chaore:
When I was reading along the thread yesterday I found myself grimacing a lot at your posts, especially stuff like this:

Could I get a run down on why I should sheep to our No lynch overlords now instead of you know, saving this when some schmuck fucks it up again in the future? Like, why is Saving Dan's life overwhelmingly the best choice here.

We're giving this post restriction a LOT of power if it hits us again by wasting our No Lynch this early in the game. This is overwhelmingly a win win for Scum either way, assuming it is scum-motivated, but uh if we us No lynch here we give them even more power if we fuck it up again in the future by having no out if this happens at a critical point in the game.

Since when was saving town's no lynch important in any game here? Also, lynching a townie is even better for scum than a no lynch since it increases the scum:town ratio, so I have no idea what you were trying to say here.

Also, I didn't really find the rest of his content inspiring. Aside from the Dan stuff, his main reads post is #93, which is basically "Zak is lurking", "Dormio post more," and "Serela is weird."

There's also posts like this:

It feels like he's fumbling around trying to flesh it out abit, essentially? He's just like piecing little bits while he comes up with something. That last part about not calling scum scum also feels weird, but I can't put my finger on why.

Where it feels like he's brownnosing really hard. Also, not calling scum scum as a post restriction is pretty classic: I'm sure Shadoweh can tell you all about it.

I think Dorian's case on NNR applies more to Chaore honestly, since I don't know where Chaore stands on most people and it doesn't feel like he's scumhunting.

Would probably be my second vote. I also need to reread Zak/Serela/Bard/BT/Massaca.

I need a whole hand for the numbers of FoS I have.

Happy if you could expand on these when you get back.

[Dr Rawr]

I'm interested in knowing why you auto-assume that Schezo opting for no lynch over lynching ActionDan points to Dan scum with Schezo instead of Schezo whiteknighting town!Dan. The reasoning for lynching Dan that people were pushing at the time was flimsy enough that there'd be a strong backlash against anyone who pushed the lynch through if Dan flipped town.

i didnt auto assume anything, i also thought about schezo just protecting town dan but reading schezos #259 put me off alittle. The post pretty much defends against the lynch but he doesnt really try to justify actiond dans posts. he also mentioned how he doesnt want to mention actiondan and avoids any opinion of him at all.

I also want to know how you flipped from this:
to this

i just rethought about it and decided that he could be potential scum and lynching actiondan could be impossible later on in the game.

but if you're going to ask that question, who would be a better target?

im not answering this because its a really lame question and you know it. but to further on that quote why would scum oarfish and scum massaca continue to vote dan after he had a proved post restriction and was almost about to get killed for it? and if you ask me why not i am going to rip my balls off attach some string to them and dip them in hot water till i get tea

I agree that dan isn't "confirmed town" (and I'd like him to post more because he's easy to read when he posts a lot) but a) there's practically no reason for a town post restrictor not to have claimed at that point in time given the huge mess it caused, and if you're assuming it's a self-inflicted role that gives him anti-town powers, why would scum get that role and how is that more likely than scum inflicting it on town?

well i thought about all available options and decided on one. i would also like to think actiondan would give himself a post restriction just to gain super powers.

well anyways ill just throw this out there but im thinking raikaria oarfish and massaca are pretty town. ill probably roll around and think more about actiondan being more town then scum. ill probably put my action dan thingy on the back burner for now and look else where.

[Conqueror]

but to further on that quote why would scum oarfish and scum massaca continue to vote dan after he had a proved post restriction and was almost about to get killed for it?

Are you saying that if oarfish and massaca town then Dan has to be scum? :V I don't think oarfish is scum at least. Massaca I have to look at again.

I agree with Raikaria town at least.

Also, after rereading Zakeri he jumped to the top of my lynch list. I'm not voting Chaore because there's actually something I've been waiting on from him to see if my recollections are correct.

##Unvote
##Vote: Zakeri

I'll word this more properly later when I have time, but in summary his votes have been pretty empty so far. Particularly his last Moridin vote which is basically a prod poke, even after he had content complaints with other people in the same post. I don't think town!Zak would do that.

[O4rfish]

I am suspicious of Raikaria for a couple of reasons.

Well I can't imagine scum would hit themselves with a vote restriction that would make them hated and the only lynch target if it messed up.
Unless someone who is town set such a restriction on him.  They would probably claim it by now since I'm pretty sure they knew what would happen if Dan broke it.  So I'm inclined to believe scum set that on him since even if he isn't lynched it's still a setback to town.

Schezo basically confirms Dan town for us.

I don't see how that follows. Schezo has a post where he says Dan is Town because obviously Scum put the PR on him, but this isn't that post. This is the post where he says Scum put the PR on him. Raikaria, do you think Schezo is telling the truth here, or do you KNOW Schezo is telling the truth here?

*Shrug* Fine. Back to the drawing board then. I have to decide which of 2~3 people I was unhappy with at the end of D1 is worst of the bunch.
These people being Dormio [Voting to lynch Actiondan; lack of scumhunting and the laughably bad vote on me in #152 which I instantly rip apart and I'm pretty sure no-one commented on; Dorian [Basically same as Day 1; despite saying he'd vote no lynch he never actually did] and Zakeri [General lack of scumhunting; the whole jokevote thing, and he was pretty pro-lynching Actiondan if I recall]
------
And yes the other people voting Actiondan lost townie points in my books as well, but none of them either stand out in the scum territory yet, or have some interaction with Schezo which says 'I doubt they are buddies'.

I thought you said you "digested" the new information from n1. What about the fact that Schezo voted to NL? That implies that voting to lynch ActionDan is LESS scummy than voting to NL.
It seems scummy to me for someone to suspect exactly the same people on d2 as on d1, given the fact of a scum flip.

[Conqueror]

Oarfish, read my response to rawr as to why Schezo voting to no lynch over voting ActionDan is not damning for ActionDan. Put simply, scum can white knight town.

[O4rfish]

@Serela: Mhmm, that makes at least a bit more sense but still, you consider that Raikaria overreacts a lot and excuse it. But you vote Zakeri for doing nothing, cause we all know what a whirlwind of activity he usually is day one, ? oh wait, he isn't.
So why is it better to ?vote Zakeri for being Zakeri? than to vote Raikaria for the same reason?
Why is it so scummy if someone comes in late with a joke vote when we have player like Dan and SB who are still siting on their joke votes?

Morrison on the other hand almost has a joke like: inb4 quicklynched over empty unvote scumtell but it's true.  Like it feels gross for no reason and I like this better now that Serela has content and isn't just a bandwagon jumper anymore.

Sorry but I have to disagree here, all I see is that he jumped from one wagon to the next best with a reason that I find kinda qestionable.

What I see here is Dorian pressing Serela on why he is voting Zak while excusing Raikaria. Dorian incidentally quotes Schezo approving of Serela, saying that Serela shouldn't be approved of so easily.
When we add in the information of Schezo being scum, Serela looks a little suspicious.

Dorian spent only two posts attacking Serela. Raikaria has spent six posts over several sessions attacking Dorian plus a bunch mentioning how he's voting for Dorian, but they're all about the same issue: Dorian's case on Serela. Which is Dorian asking why Serela is seeming to give Raikaria a pass.
This by itself is bad play by Raikaria, not necessarily scummy, unless you choose to view it as Raikaria and Serela defending each other.

[O4rfish]

Oarfish, read my response to rawr as to why Schezo voting to no lynch over voting ActionDan is not damning for ActionDan. Put simply, scum can white knight town.

In the post you're responding to, I'm not accusing ActionDan of being scum.

What I'm saying is that people who voted for ActionDan should look more towny, and people who voted for No Lynch should look more scummy, because a flipped scum voted No-Lynch.
Raikaria had the opposite view, and didn't reverse it when Schezo flipped.

[Serela]

Raikaria has spent six posts over several sessions attacking Dorian plus a bunch mentioning how he's voting for Dorian, but they're all about the same issue: Dorian's case on Serela. Which is Dorian asking why Serela is seeming to give Raikaria a pass.
This by itself is bad play by Raikaria, not necessarily scummy, unless you choose to view it as Raikaria and Serela defending each other.

these are connections that only really matter after one of us flips scum though is the thing

Actually, for that matter, I don't really get the exact reason you think it's bad play. Do you think it's bad because Raikaria shouldn't attack Dorian due to his case on me having been about something that was in favor of not voting Raikaria? (Sorry if that's hard to parse, I don't know how to better word it)

I mean, just because Dorian's case was over why I didn't find Raikaria voteworthy doesn't mean Raikaria should think it's a good and townie thing. The matters are unrelated even if it seems like they shouldn't be at first glance.

Anyway I'm trying to look at the thread more seriously to make an actual post of who I think is scum, now the game is actually serious and I still haven't done Real Scumhunting past "Well zakeri had a jokevote kinda-ish far in" since the Dan shenanigans let me laze through ;_;

[O4rfish]

Sorry, the phrase I should have used isn't "bad play", it's "a poor case" and in addition I think Raikaria should have acknowledged the fact that he was involved in it, as that would probably have made his case seem LESS scummy.

Also inb4 accusations of a chainsaw defense.

If Raikaria was just attacking Dorian in response to Dorian attacking Serela, that would be a chainsaw defense.
Since Raikaria could be said to have attacked Dorian in response to Dorian calling out Serela for giving Raikaria himself a pass, that would be selfish behavior and not indicative of scum.
However, if Raikaria FORGOT that Serela was treating him more favorably than Serela was treating Zakeri, which he might have done since he didn't acknowledge it ever, then we have to ask why Raikaria was spending so much effort attacking Dorian.

And I can't think of any good reasons, and several bad reasons.

[WHMZakeri]

##Vote: Dr. Rawr this is just a hunch right now, but I'm going to look more into it after I sleep.
This entire day information has been falling out of my skull, even after having read the thread up to now, I can barely retain anything that's happened day 2.

[Serela]

______________________ but I'm going to look more into it after I sleep.
This entire day information has been falling out of my skull, even after having read the thread up to now, I can barely retain anything that's happened day 2.

^me

I don't have work or collegework or whatever else tomorrow, so as long as I don't have RETURN OF THE CHRONIC HEADACHE I'll catch up on everything

[Dr Rawr]

Are you saying that if oarfish and massaca town then Dan has to be scum?

naaah im saying if dan were scum or town there actions dont make sense.

[Raikaria]

Dorian spent only two posts attacking Serela. Raikaria has spent six posts over several sessions attacking Dorian plus a bunch mentioning how he's voting for Dorian, but they're all about the same issue: Dorian's case on Serela. Which is Dorian asking why Serela is seeming to give Raikaria a pass.
This by itself is bad play by Raikaria, not necessarily scummy, unless you choose to view it as Raikaria and Serela defending each other.

My current reason for voting Dorian is the Serela case as well as his blatant OMGUS vote on NNR, combined with his weak case on Serela.

I know Serela was babbleing about me acting like me and using player Meta. However this was never why I was voting for Dorian. My primary aggravation with Dorian was how he was pushing the 'wagon hopping' thing when Serela's vote on Dormio fell into RVS, and Serela's Zakeri vote was hardly a wagon hop seeing as only a single player had a non-RVS vote on Zakeri at that point.

That is what made Dorian's case weak, and his follow-up post made it seem like he was just fishing for excuses to vote for Serela.

He's also been a little tunnely on his votes. Moreso during Day 1; when he does little but talk about who he is voting for or defend his case.

Considering all Dorian has really done this game is make two very weak cases, one of which is OMGUS on NNR [Seriously look at the post where he votes NNR and tell me that is not OMGUS] and dosen't seem to be scumhunting outside of that, I think my vote on Dorian is justified as more than just defending Serela.

I thought you said you "digested" the new information from n1. What about the fact that Schezo voted to NL? That implies that voting to lynch ActionDan is LESS scummy than voting to NL.
It seems scummy to me for someone to suspect exactly the same people on d2 as on d1, given the fact of a scum flip.

As I stated before about a mistake with the end-of-day lynch senario, since that discussion was mostly about Actiondan and not a lot got done there IMO, I used the votecount that mattered, the end of day votecount. Besides Schezo basically says he doesn't care which happens seeing as he flipped scum after all. And while he did vote for Actiondan; he changed pretty early in the wagon.

Apathy towards the lynch cannot really be read either way. Also your attempt to attack me based on indirectly saying you are scummy for voting Actiondan is noted.

What's strange about claiming miller off the bat? It's pretty standard here to claim miller asap so this is a little strange.

I have a reason to doubt the authenticity of Dorian's claim.

[Raikaria]

I have a reason to doubt the authenticity of Dorian's claim.

I would also greatly dislike to divulge the exact reason at the present time due to it being role-related. If Dorian can be lynched without people giving more information to scum I would be happy about it.

Let's just say I have it on good authority that Dorian may not be a miller.

[O4rfish]

I don't like how Raikaria is taking Schezo's words as obvtrue, given that HE IS SCUM.
Raikaria, are you ASSUMING that Schezo was giving Town insight into the Scum thought process, or do you KNOW he was?

When you link to Schezo saying "getting a free nl or a lynch on not scum doesn't sound that bad to scum to me" are you aware Schezo was trying to persuade people that ActionDan was not scum?
Given this, I think I am justified in attacking you for listing pro-Danlynch as being Scummy in this post.

[O4rfish]

##unvote; Vote: Raikaria

[Raikaria]

I don't like how Raikaria is taking Schezo's words as obvtrue, given that HE IS SCUM.
Raikaria, are you ASSUMING that Schezo was giving Town insight into the Scum thought process, or do you KNOW he was?

When you link to Schezo saying "getting a free nl or a lynch on not scum doesn't sound that bad to scum to me" are you aware Schezo was trying to persuade people that ActionDan was not scum?
Given this, I think I am justified in attacking you for listing pro-Danlynch as being Scummy in this post.

What?

I'm saying Schenzo was apathetic to the lynch either way. He voted on both sides, although he ultimately voted for No-Lynch. He basically said it doesn't matter to him, since he said that it doesn't matter to scum. I don't see a reason why this is a lie. Removing the NML and mislynching a townie are both beneficial to scum. Similar attitudes may therefor be indicative of scum. Which several of the people voting for a Dan lynch had.

If you're going to twist that into an attack on me for saying 'pro-danlynch is scummy' then I'm frankly not even going to waste my time arguing with you anymore past this post.

The primary reason I am saying that pro-Danlynch is scummy is because Dan said that his post restriction is not part of HIS role, meaning someone else inflicted it upon him.

So that all but confirms Dan as town since that sort of restriction is not a pro-town role in any way, shape, or form. If it was a restriction in his own role I doubt he would have broken it so easily, nor do I think the punishent would be making the town choose between keeping him alive and No lynching, I think he'd just be modkilled or automatically die with that sort of restriction as a town role.

So voting for Dan when he was pretty obviously town is scummy. That fact has nothing to do with Schezo.

[Massaca]

Also, after rereading Zakeri he jumped to the top of my lynch list. I'm not voting Chaore because there's actually something I've been waiting on from him to see if my recollections are correct.

<vote>

I'll word this more properly later when I have time, but in summary his votes have been pretty empty so far. Particularly his last Moridin vote which is basically a prod poke, even after he had content complaints with other people in the same post. I don't think town!Zak would do that.

The only person he mentioned with some criticism in that post was Dorian, other than that just expressed dislike for one of Raikaria's lines and questioned it.
What makes it worse than Moridin having no votes so far other than RVS and the no lynch decision near the end?

He hasn't had any reads or suspicions apart from his agreement with Raikaria's post (#156) which in his next reads post (after the ActionDan incident) doesn't mention Zakeri in the same context but says it's null for Schezo and Bard to have voted them for jumping on the wagon and then actually goes on about a bit and spinning Zakeri's (late) RVS joke vote into possible Zakeri/Serela scum team? I know I'm in no position to say this but like what? I can't even understand how he could make this suggestion seriously. Although he does end with

Uhhhh, this is probably stretching the bounds of logic a lot. Not the slightest bit convinced of it myself. An interesting idea though.

As if to keep the suggestion open for him to either continue with it or completely dismiss it, whichever is needed.

The other thing is him being pro-Dan lynch saying:

I'd be inclined to go for an ActionDan lynch.

We aren't really SURE that ActionDan is TOWN, so we are probably going to end up lynching him anyway.

Also we get to confirm a few things by doing so.
[...]

I'm kind of inclined to lynch ActionDan just so things will be less confusing. If he could make a clear and convincing explanation/summary of everything I'd change my mind.

then after Serela remarks about thinking Moridin doesn't get the Dan restriction thing proper, is suddenly all for the no-lynch without any reference as to why or what he misunderstood to make him comepletely change his mind going from "he's probably town, we should lynch him to confirm" to " He's def town, lynching town is bad, let's not do that!".
Sure a couple hours are plenty of time for him to change his mind but without explaining why it seems like he may have just switched under a bit of pressure from Raikaria and Dan between his #266 and his #271. Unless it's supposed to be implied that those two posts between made him understand and convinced him but he doesn't mention or acknowledge them at all *shrug*

Nevertheless, will be interested to see the expanded post on Zakeri.

Also @ Moridin,
Any particular reason you've allcaps'd every instance of the words Town and Mafia? Just strikes me as odd.

[CF7]

progris riport 1

Currently voting.
Conqueror (1): Animosity
Just/Bard (1): SB
ActionDan (1): Dr Rawr
Dorian (2): NNR, Raikaria
Chaore (1): Just/Bard
NNR (1): Dorian
Zakeri (1): Conqueror
Dr Rawr (1): Zakeri
Raikaria (1): O4rfish

Not voting.
Chaore, BT, Moridin84, Massaca, Serela, ActionDan

With 15 alive it takes 8 votes to lynch someone.

48 hours left.

[Massaca]

Let's just say I have it on good authority that Dorian may not be a miller.

Just noticed this real quick, was thinking before that his #321 was all kinds of weird:

And when I'm already at the ?who did something at night?, who of you didn't knew that you aren't supposed to visit the miller at night? I mean it's not that I didn't warned you.

Like "hey, imma PGO, thanks for visiting"* weird since the only role affected by a miller is cop right? MafiaScum Wiki doesn't list any dangerous variations of it on the Miller page but admittedly I didn't look further than that.

*just the example I thought of first, seeing as I don't know too much with regards to odder roles.

[O4rfish]

I'm saying Schenzo was apathetic to the lynch either way. He voted on both sides, although he ultimately voted for No-Lynch.

No, he didn't. Schezo never voted for Dan. Schezo never even posted anything impugning Dan. I'm not even sure why you think he did, unless to you "Morrison" somehow means "ActionDan". Or unless Schezo was lobbying in the Scum QT in favor of lynching Dan but you persuaded him otherwise.

Tell me Raikaria, is this some sort of weird scumtell?

[Bardiche]

So many people not posting or barely posting. Where's Chaore.

I'd read the current slapfight but I'm still waiting for O4rfish to come up with a case for having voted me earlier, or some effort to say why my retort to SB was inadequate. Else, it just looks like a lame votepark. After claiming "an entire hand" for FoSes, it's lame O4rfish produces so very few suspects.

[Schezo]

I'm Schezo.  I'm posting. .

[Raikaria]

No, he didn't. Schezo never voted for Dan. Schezo never even posted anything impugning Dan. I'm not even sure why you think he did, unless to you "Morrison" somehow means "ActionDan". Or unless Schezo was lobbying in the Scum QT in favor of lynching Dan but you persuaded him otherwise.

Tell me Raikaria, is this some sort of weird scumtell?

I'm sure someone earlier said he voted for Dan.

As I said earlier; if there are more than ten people I can get confused. Sixteen is far beyond my capacity to listen to without some confusion at points.

How me getting things confused and mixed is a scumtell when I do this all the time is beyond me. It seems you are grasping at any straw you can. It's quite amusing honestly.

[Raikaria]

So many people not posting or barely posting. Where's Chaore.

A replacement is being looked for Chaore if you check the primary thread.

[Dorian White]

Just a quick thing before I have to go again.

I would also greatly dislike to divulge the exact reason at the present time due to it being role-related. If Dorian can be lynched without people giving more information to scum I would be happy about it.

Let's just say I have it on good authority that Dorian may not be a miller.

Before you blurt out your big revelation just to go, ?Oh wait, ? never mind? after it again, like you did so often this game. Just hypothetical, what kind of evidence could be there to prove that I'm not a miller? Perhaps a ?innocent? on me?^^

Also:

...
If Raikaria was just attacking Dorian in response to Dorian attacking Serela, that would be a chainsaw defense.
...

It would only be a chainsaw if Serela is scum indeed, so do you think Serela is scum and if yes, why?

See you later ~