Author Topic: I have a simple request, if possible...  (Read 3106 times)

CrimsonDX

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I have a simple request, if possible...
« on: January 30, 2011, 05:31:09 PM »
ello all. Just a simple request. I was wondering if some people could look over my Hard Mode replays and give me a bit of advice. I'd just like to know if there are any critical flaws with my general play style. Hard Mode is probably as high as I will ever go (Lunatic is just...I don't see much point to it since it doesn't add anything extra. Hard Mode at least has new spell cards) so I figure It wouldn't hurt to go ahead and start practicing it (even though I can barely 1CC easy mode). These uploads are from PCB.

http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=11914   stage 1

http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=11915   stage 2

http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=11916   stage 3

ebarrett

Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2011, 06:51:15 PM »
Just give yourself more room at the bottom of the screen and you'll be fine. Moving around unfocused seems to make you a bit umconfortable as well; spam StB 5-1 and 5-5 practice, no matter how badly Meiling kicks you around.


Lunatic is just...I don't see much point to it since it doesn't add anything extra. Hard Mode at least has new spell cards
What have you been smoking man

Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2011, 07:21:02 PM »
I'd say Lunatic is roughly around twice the difficulty of hard for most of the games.

Anyway, gameplay, gameplay.

Stage 1 - Be agressive.  If you have to die or bomb on stage 1 it won't really matter since you're only a minute or so into the game.  Fly around unfocused, kill everything possible, grab everything possible.

Stage 2 - You seem very uncomfortable with this stage... You tend towards the bottom of the screen throughout the majority of it, when there are plenty of opportunities to use the PoC.  For example there's plenty of parts on stage 2 where there are no bullets where you could have gone for the PoC.  Also note that many of those bubble fairies take a while to appear.  Again, be more aggressive and most importantly learn the stage.

Stage 3 - Once again, learn the stage.  From a few fairy appearances that you didn't jump, I'm gonna go ahead and assume you aren't very familiar with it.

Alice's russian dolls.  Your death was in a very silly place - I'm not saying that card is easy or anything (though it probably is for a lot of people), but you were in a tight spot and had 3 bombs in reserve.  Don't try to dodge recklessly.  Aside from this, you seem pretty decent with dodging/bombing though.

Shotgun bosses at the start of a spell/nonspell or between waves if possible, with a couple exceptions (Youmu openers, Alice midbosses, etc).  ReimuB has an incredibly powerful unfocused shot, and you should learn how and when to take advantage of it.

Always go to the PoC when a boss drops point items.  Usually right after a spellcard.  Again, I think you're just nervous about stuff like this.  Your focused movement was really jittery in some spots - if you aren't confident in yourself, you'll probably die in a lot of places you shouldn't be, and you definitely look like you could pull off a hard 1cc if you put in the effort.

Shoot unfocused on the easy spells/nonspells.  More unfocused shots means more cherry which means more borders.  Try to get borders right before a hard spell/nonspell/stage portion to give yourself some breathing room.  With that said, until you can 1cc with ease, I recommend breaking most of your borders a moment before they end.  Not only does it cancel all of the bullets on the screen, but it also brings you closer to your next border (especially if there's a lot of bullets onscreen) and can give you a chance to redirect your streaming a little easier.  It's bad for score but good for surviving.

And uhh... Yeah, that's about it I think.  Learn your stages and spells, stay calm in the difficult spots, and abuse any little tricks that you think will help you.

CrimsonDX

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Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2011, 08:07:03 PM »
I have bad luck with stage two. If I act too aggressively I will run into a pack of fairies. The fact I was on hard mode (which I am very new at) didn't help

I am actually much more comfortable with moving around unfocused than I used to be. When I first started playing I would stay focused through the entire stage. Playing IN really helped me with that.

I try to go to the PoC when possible but I have a terribly slow reaction time and usually don't realize it and then If I try to go up I will get caught in the next wave. I only even really attempt it in the first few games because points=lives. I go for points even less in the later games and sometimes ignore them entirely (Don't play for score)

Moving around unfocused in a boss fight is pretty hard for me outside of a few spells (Shou's Vajra is one of the few spell cards I can spend the whole card unfocused) so I'll work on that for sure.

Death bombing is 100% impossible for me. I have never once been able to deathbomb on command, I've only ever achieved it through luck (I rush into the wave while hitting bomb button and it goes off). The only time I can bomb is preemptively when I KNOW I'm going to die (I can't see a way out). I can't bomb on a bullet I didn't see coming or that clipped me. That death on that card was because I THOUGHT I was clear at the time. So the death was a complete surprise. Sometimes I don't go where I wanted to go. Over or undershooting a gap is very common for me.

I hate StB and will never ever play it again as long as I live. and I never play on a higher difficulty (for any game) unless their is a TANGIBLE reward (the new spell cards in hard mode for example) The frustration that Lunatic causes me is not worth the minuscule reward.


here are a few of my easy mode 1CCs to try and regain some of my credibility and show I am not a TOTAL idiot >_>;;

http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=11917 MoF easy 1cc (I love that buffer bomb)

http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=10852 UFO easy 1cc (all of Hijiri's bars captured)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 08:20:05 PM by CrimsonDX »

ebarrett

Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2011, 08:34:54 PM »
I'd just like to know if there are any critical flaws with my general play style.
I hate StB and will never ever play it again as long as I live. and I never play on a higher difficulty (for any game) unless their is a TANGIBLE reward (the new spell cards in hard mode for example) The frustration that Lunatic causes me is not worth the minuscule reward.

Your attitude is a critical flaw of the worst kind. "Try again, fail again, fail better"; eventually the hardest stuff out there won't seem out of reach. Also lol "tangible rewards", there are no tangible rewards in video games you silly, it's all in your mind. And wtf is this "new spell cards in hard mode" nonsense, stop smoking before the brain damage is irreversible.

edit: to explain my attitude; there you are, claiming to "barely 1cc easy", yet these hard mode replays show you could very well at least stumble your way to a hard mode 1cc, and you're all "bawwwwww I'm terribad" - seriously man, just keep going and stop the "there's no reward" avoidance bullshit, doing something you couldn't do before is the reward.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 08:49:18 PM by EX-beckett »

Sapz

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Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2011, 08:54:37 PM »
ebarrett: Chill, man. :V

I agree with his point, though; you're really limiting yourself by staying away from things you find difficult. The chances are, you're finding them difficult because they're your weak points, and therefore practicing them is the best way to improve.

As for deathbombing; you shouldn't try to deathbomb. There is, effectively, no such thing; there are just times you try to bomb, are a little slow, but get it in the deathbomb window. If you try to deathbomb, you're never going to get the bombs out consistently, so don't treat it like something you should wait for.

This guide answers pretty much every question you just asked. Read it, it's there for a reason. :P
Let's fight.

CrimsonDX

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Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2011, 09:08:26 PM »
Your attitude is a critical flaw of the worst kind. "Try again, fail again, fail better"; eventually the hardest stuff out there won't seem out of reach. Also lol "tangible rewards", there are no tangible rewards in video games you silly, it's all in your mind. And wtf is this "new spell cards in hard mode" nonsense, stop smoking before the brain damage is irreversible.

edit: to explain my attitude; there you are, claiming to "barely 1cc easy", yet these hard mode replays show you could very well at least stumble your way to a hard mode 1cc, and you're all "bawwwwww I'm terribad" - seriously man, just keep going and stop the "there's no reward" avoidance bullshit, doing something you couldn't do before is the reward.

There is so much I wanted to say to you for that, but I can't think of any way to express myself without coming off as a complete jackass. Different people play games for different reasons. I don't play games for the challenge. In fact, if it weren't for the characters and music I wouldn't even be playing THIS game. I never once complained about the game being too hard I only said that the lack of perceived reward FOR ME was not worth the level of frustration I know I would feel. I don't play StB because I HATE the controls (same reason I don't play PoFV either). The only reason I play Hard Mode is because I find the level of difficulty bearable enough and the extra spell cards (the midboss cards and some of the new cards the bosses have) is enough of an incentive to play

Well thank you for making me regret posting this thread.


@spaz: I read your guide a while back, good guide. I DON'T try to deathbomb. If I die instead of bomb it is because I did not react fast enough, which happens often in those tight micro dodging instances where I either loose track of a bullet or fail to read ahead of the bullets.



« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 09:12:03 PM by CrimsonDX »

Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2011, 09:17:27 PM »
As for deathbombing; you shouldn't try to deathbomb. There is, effectively, no such thing; there are just times you try to bomb, are a little slow, but get it in the deathbomb window. If you try to deathbomb, you're never going to get the bombs out consistently, so don't treat it like something you should wait for.
I'm gonna have to argue a little on that point.  There's a few times in MoF where deathbombing  is useful to collect point items and save that 5000 faith... And to an extent in other games to lower rank.  Not particularly common events, but there's definitely times in EoSD where I know I'm either going to die or bomb and I will instead tap the bomb button as I dive directly into a bullet.  You use a bomb you were going to spend anyway, and things get slightly easier from the lowered rank... Not that intentional deathbombing should replace normal bomb reflex by any means, but it does serve some minor purposes.

Sapz

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Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2011, 09:20:41 PM »
chirpy: Alright, yeah, that's fair enough. :P I meant for pure reactionary survival purposes rather than planned bombs, in which case it still applies, I think.

Crimson: Generally if you lose track of what's going on, you should bomb instantly - it's not worth the risk of trying to catch back up with what's going on before you get hit by something you missed. As for the rest... there's no one thing you can really do, it's just a matter of practicing at Hard and Lunatic until you get used to the speed and density and improve your bullet reading skills, I'd say.
Let's fight.

LHCling

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Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2011, 09:26:42 PM »
  • WRT MoF, that assumes that you're going for score. In addition to that, most, if not all the deathbombs in that regard are planned.
  • The effect of lowering rank is negligible, and reeeeeally only apply to anything PCB and under. For EoSD, it also says in the manual that the deathbomb window decreases for every successful deathbomb (which I assume resets also every time you die). Rank fixes itself within about a minute to boot. High-risk execution for a low reward? No thanks. (ADD: with the obvious exceptions)

Expressed differently, reflexive deathbombing is a big no-no. Just to use numbers, you need a reaction time that is better than something like 133ms. The average is approximately 200.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 09:38:21 PM by BLTling »
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ebarrett

Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2011, 09:29:48 PM »
Well thank you for making me regret posting this thread.

And thank you for making me regret reading it and answering to it. If you're in it for just the pretty colors you should have made it clear before going on a rant about your inferiority complex.

CrimsonDX

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Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2011, 09:32:40 PM »
chirpy: Alright, yeah, that's fair enough. :P I meant for pure reactionary survival purposes rather than planned bombs, in which case it still applies, I think.

Crimson: Generally if you lose track of what's going on, you should bomb instantly - it's not worth the risk of trying to catch back up with what's going on before you get hit by something you missed. As for the rest... there's no one thing you can really do, it's just a matter of practicing at Hard and Lunatic until you get used to the speed and density and improve your bullet reading skills, I'd say.


I don't always realize I have lost track. I'm not good at reading tight patterns yet, so it's not really that I'm taking a risk but more that I never realized I was in danger.  :ohdear:


And thank you for making me regret reading it and answering to it. If you're in it for just the pretty colors you should have made it clear before going on a rant about your inferiority complex.

Oh my  :ohdear: forgive me for not realizing that liking pretty colors disqualifies me from asking for advice
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 09:41:29 PM by CrimsonDX »

Sapz

  • There's no escape.
  • *
  • It's time to burn!
Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2011, 10:23:27 PM »
And thank you for making me regret reading it and answering to it. If you're in it for just the pretty colors you should have made it clear before going on a rant about your inferiority complex.
Quote
ebarrett: Chill, man.
Seriously, dudes, drop it, it's not worth arguing about something petty like this. :/ You guys have your opinions, that's fine, but no need to throw around ad hominems.
Let's fight.

Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2011, 10:29:09 PM »
Oh my  :ohdear: forgive me for not realizing that liking pretty colors disqualifies me from asking for advice
To be fair, he has a point, even if it was said a bit harshly... I'd say you're at the level where you should be able to 1cc normal on most of the games pretty consistently.  Even if you're easily frustrated, there's no reason you should stick to easy all the time when normal probably won't feel like a big jump to you.  And over time, hard will feel the same way, and maybe even lunatic after that.  I'm not saying to rush it or dive straight in, but you should try to stay open minded to trying harder things.  This is coming from someone who is also very easily irritated by Touhou.  If I get too upset, I will usually go do something else and try later, or just step down the difficulty to cool off for a bit.

And speaking of frustration with Touhou, I'd like to apologize for all those bad things I said about you in the past Orin, Okuu, Byakuren, Yuka, Shikieki, Komachi, Chiyuri, Yumemi, Remilia, Yukari, Suika, Kaguya, Keine, Murasa, Ichirin, Kogasa... Well, you get the picture.

  • The effect of lowering rank is negligible, and reeeeeally only apply to anything PCB and under. For EoSD, it also says in the manual that the deathbomb window decreases for every successful deathbomb (which I assume resets also every time you die). Rank fixes itself within about a minute to boot. High-risk execution for a low reward? No thanks. (ADD: with the obvious exceptions)
I guess that makes sense, though I never really gave it much thought.  I just saw it mentioned once and figured I may as well make use of it if the situation arises.  Not really sure about high-risk execution though, I have a pretty much 100% success rate with it, even in EoSD with the decreasing (and already quite short) timer, and my reflexes are probably below average.  To be more specific, it's easy when you drop the whole concept of dodging and just charge into a certain bullet or wall of bullets (the bigger the better).  I suppose in high level play you generally won't be accidentally walling yourself off or going into a spell with the intention to bomb anyway though.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 10:42:58 PM by chirpy13 »

CrimsonDX

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Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2011, 10:42:08 PM »
To be fair, he has a point, even if it was said a bit harshly... I'd say you're at the level where you should be able to 1cc normal on most of the games pretty consistently.  Even if you're easily frustrated, there's no reason you should stick to easy all the time when normal probably won't feel like a big jump to you.  And over time, hard will feel the same way, and maybe even lunatic after that.  I'm not saying to rush it or dive straight in, but you should try to stay open minded to trying harder things.  This is coming from someone who is also very easily irritated by Touhou.  If I get too upset, I will usually go do something else and try later, or just step down the difficulty to cool off for a bit.

And speaking of frustration with Touhou, I'd like to apologize for all those bad things I said about you in the past Orin, Okuu, Byakuren, Yuka, Shikieki, Komachi, Chiyuri, Yumemi, Remilia, Yukari, Suika, Kaguya, Keine, Murasa, Ichirin, Kogasa... Well, you get the picture.


I am attempting to 1CC normal. I just haven't yet been able to beat normal (took me many many months just to get to the point where I could beat easy mode as well, let alone 1CC it). I can get to stage 6 on EoSD and IN and sometimes on PCB (Youmu is a b****). and I can get to around stage 4 on SA before I get to the point where 3 lives is not enough (Curse you Satori!) I came close once though. I just don't get enough pleasure out of it to play Lunatic for anything other than lulz


edit: I just did stage 2 PCB again and increased my aggression. Did a lot better in the stage portion, but I totally failed against Chen >_>;;;

Seriously, dudes, drop it, it's not worth arguing about something petty like this. :/ You guys have your opinions, that's fine, but no need to throw around ad hominems.

Sorry, I suppose I really didn't need to try and have the last word on that one
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 10:53:29 PM by CrimsonDX »

Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2011, 11:00:19 PM »
I am attempting to 1CC normal. I just haven't yet been able to beat normal (took me many many months just to get to the point where I could beat easy mode as well, let alone 1CC it). I can get to stage 6 on EoSD and IN and sometimes on PCB (Youmu is a b****). and I can get to around stage 4 on SA before I get to the point where 3 lives is not enough (Curse you Satori!) I came close once though. I just don't get enough pleasure out of it to play Lunatic for anything other than lulz

SA is hard.  I was stuck on SA/UFO normal stage 4 for a long time when I was working on those... In fact, I wasn't able to clear either of those games until I was able to get through stage 4 deathless.  I think SA I went into stage 6 with 8 lives and came out with 2, and UFO I went in with 6-7 and came out with 1 and no bombs >_>.

Slightly off topic, but I remembered it while I went to do the laundry mid-post.  You could try playing without focus on normal.  It sounds silly, but you will get more used to no-focus movement that way, and it may increase your general dodging.  I say this because from how I'm interpreting what you're saying, you're using continues to reach stage 6.  The first couple days/nights I played Touhou, I had no clue that there was even a focus button, and EoSD was my first game.  Within a couple days, no focus no death no bomb before stage 4 seemed pretty doable on normal.  I was still using continues by Sakuya, but I wouldn't be surprised if those little accidental challenge runs helped my dodging quite a bit.

I specify normal (or higher I guess, but that's harder) because that's what I was playing on what I started.  I was watching some IOSYS videos a couple days before I started and didn't want to be ridiculed by Tewi and Reisen for playing in easy mode >_>.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 11:03:32 PM by chirpy13 »

CrimsonDX

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Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2011, 11:04:57 PM »
SA is hard.  I was stuck on SA/UFO normal stage 4 for a long time when I was working on those... In fact, I wasn't able to clear either of those games until I was able to get through stage 4 deathless.  I think SA I went into stage 6 with 8 lives and came out with 2, and UFO I went in with 6-7 and came out with 1 and no bombs >_>.

Slightly off topic, but I remembered it while I went to do the laundry mid-post.  You could try playing without focus on normal.  It sounds silly, but you will get more used to no-focus movement that way, and it may increase your general dodging.  I say this because from how I'm interpreting what you're saying, you're using continues to reach stage 6.  The first couple days/nights I played Touhou, I had no clue that there was even a focus button, and EoSD was my first game.  Within a couple days, no focus no death no bomb before stage 4 seemed pretty doable on normal.  I was still using continues by Sakuya, but I wouldn't be surprised if those little accidental challenge runs helped my dodging quite a bit.

I might give that a try. I know it was thanks to IN that I even started trying to go around unfocused.

Heartbeam

Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2011, 12:48:55 AM »
Quote from: EX-beckett
rant about your inferiority complex.

Didn't really see it like that.  If you want a shining example then I have a great mess of a post over at the SA high score thread.  Though admittedly, it's located in a backwater board and it wasn't exactly a request for aid, so there's no telling if you would have confronted me after reading it.


Nothing I say about the topic will be so different, but it's hard to ignore stuff related to PCB.

Quote from: CrimsonDX
I'd just like to know if there are any critical flaws with my general play style.

The only thing that stood out for me in stage one was Letty's first spell.  Looks like a simple thing of mapping bullet trajectories as you would move uncomfortably close to another bullet just to avoid one that would have missed you anyway.  It would come with experience, but surprisingly I didn't see any problems of that sort against her final spell.

There's no problem with showing practice runs when asking for help, but I'm a little curious.  Just for me, full runs have the added burden of keeping up your concentration.  Practice stages would feel like a...showcase.  Asking this because of how you handled endstage Chen's first spell.  You did say you would only bomb when you can't see a way out, and indeed you did make it through the first few waves, but I really want to know how much you felt you were in control.  If you would have taken the same (what looked like to me) risk if it were a full run.  Stage three, you heard it from the others.  If in doubt, bomb.

So hard to judge playstyle...well, that's all I can say.  There's a lot of stuff out there to remove the random elements from, and it's up to you to test out the attacks or watch them from the comfort of a replay.

Quote from: chirpy13
Shoot unfocused on the easy spells/nonspells.

Seconded.  Remember when they're not firing and get in their face.  Being unfocused almost every waking moment is a weird thing, actually, but it feels so right with PCB and IN (because the scoring system promotes it?).  Of course, from the stance of a first 1CC don't take it too far with Sakuya-A and Marisa-B because their unfocused damage is pretty bad most of the time.  Extra borders certainly aren't that crucial or you wouldn't see people recommending Sakuya-A so much.  By the time you're making it pop up everywhere you're already walking all over the game.

This didn't come out the way I wanted to say it (what is that, some disclaimer so I don't have to worry about the post content being inadequate).


Quote from: Ghaleon
But Lunatics DO have new spellcards over hard sometimes. I haven't played PCB in awhile so I can't remember the details, but one that comes to mind is Letty's table turning, it's lunatic only, and it's a legitimately different card than the spell it replaces, it's just not the same thing only more dense or faster or whatever.

I knew I wanted to mention that!
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 01:06:20 AM by Heartbeam »

Ghaleon

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Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2011, 12:54:30 AM »
I don't consider myself an experienced enough shmupper to really give player specific advice sorry. But I think the reasons for wanting to play Touhou for your reasons odd, but I'll accept them. I say that though because I'm honestly not sure exactly of what you want in them, so I'm not sure if what I'm going to say matters...

But Lunatics DO have new spellcards over hard sometimes. I haven't played PCB in awhile so I can't remember the details, but one that comes to mind is Letty's table turning, it's lunatic only, and it's a legitimately different card than the spell it replaces, it's just not the same thing only more dense or faster or whatever. Another example that pops in my mind is Lunatic MoF, Nitori will cast spin the cephalic plate instead of Extending AAAAAARRRRRMMMM!!!.. which coincidentally is really just monster cucumber, while spin the plate is completely different.

Anyway, cheer up. I remember when I first played Touhou, I thought 1ccing normal was going to be a pipe dream for as long as I live. And yesterday, I was upset I didn't 1cc a lunatic on my first attempt in like a year with no practice during that time.. so yeah.. You don't see yourself improve very often either, it just kinda happens really slowly and noticeably.

CrimsonDX

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Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2011, 01:17:49 AM »
@Ghaleon: I never noticed that about Letty.  :o


edit: captured it :3


@Heartbeam: constantly playing practice mode was how I was finally able to 1CC easy mode for the games. I find that reps in practice mode have a visible impact for me in a full play through.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 01:27:01 AM by CrimsonDX »

Re: I have a simple request, if possible...
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2011, 01:57:09 AM »
I see practice more as a tool for things you're stuck on.  A certain spell card, a certain stage portion, etc.  Also, rolling back to what I said earlier, you should be playing even more aggressively in stage practice, because it will show you just how hard you can push your limits and the types of things you can get away with.  For example, here's how I would go about stage 3.  It's probably a little aggressive for your tastes right now, but it should give you an idea.  Ironically, stage 3 is usually the last stage I go this hard on, since I'm still fine with restarting at that point.  I still take advantage of what I can, but for stage 4 and onward I will often sit back when I'm unsure, since scoring a bit lower is better than wasting lives.