Takamagahara and Tenkai?

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Ok, I'm not so good on starting topics of this kind, because to explain what's said topic's point, I'll have to go through a lot of steps and give a lot of info... so, I'll try my best to make things as clear as possible and explain where I'm trying to reach.

According to Gensokyo's timeline, the events that ocurred several billion years ago from the beginning of the universe, were the following:

-Separation of In and Yo. (Yin and Yang)= Big Bang? (Separation of matter and anti-matter 13.7 billion years ago)

-Birth of Takamagahara. (Lit. High Heaven's Plain)
- Birth of three gods of creation, the Zōka Sanshin.
-Birth of two other gods, and together with the Zōka Sanshin formed the Kotoamatsukami.
-Birth of planet Earth. (About 4.54 billion years ago)
-Birth of the Moon. (4.5 billion years ago)
-Birth of micro-organisms born from the seas using oxygen to move 3~4 billion years ago becoming the first life on Earth.[3]

-The endless war for survival begins.
-The moon was a lifeless satellite orbiting the Earth at some point before being colonized by Lunarians.

Now, the english touhou wiki doesn't give any info about Takamagahara itself despite translating it to "High Heaven's Plain", I'm not sure if Zun gave any info about the place himself, but as far as I can see, he didn't.

So, I suppose some of the info could be added through the wikipedia article about the place, which I'm going to quote here:

Takama-ga-hara (高天原 the Plain of High Heaven?) is a place in Japanese mythology. In Shinto, Takama-ga-hara (or Takama no Hara) is the dwelling place of the kami. It is believed to be connected to the Earth by the bridge Ama-no uki-hashi (the "Floating Bridge of Heaven").

In Shinto, ame (heaven) is a lofty, sacred world, the home of the amatsukami. Some scholars have attempted to explain the myth of descent of the gods from the Takama-ga-hara as an allegory of the migration of peoples. However, it is likely to have referred from the beginning to a higher world in a religious sense. A Shinto myth explains that at the time of creation, light, pure elements branched off to become heaven (ame). Heavy, turbid elements branched off to become earth (tsuchi). Ame became the home of the amatsukami or gods of heaven, while tsuchi became the home of kunitsukami or gods of the land. The amatsukami are said to have descended from heaven to pacify and perfect this world[1])

Now, for some of the events of Gensokyo's timeline that ocurred after the birth of Takamagahara (more specifically, between the "Paleozoic era/Cenozoic era" and the "Hiding in the cave episode")

-The keystone is pulled out to create Heaven. All creatures on Earth perish as a result.

- So long ago that even Eirin has not seen it.[4]
- Possibly refers to the Permian?Triassic extinction event (~252 million years ago).
- With no witness to the event, it cannot be guaranteed legitimacy.

Now, if Touhou's heaven is (天界 Tenkai, lit. Celestial World), and if Takamagahara is the High Heaven's Plain, then what's the connection between Tenkai and Takamagahara? Was the former descended from the latter? (I think that's doubtful since Tenkai was created out of the Keystone that was located on Earth) or are those two completely unrelated, different realms?

[Starxsword]

I am unsure if those 2 are the same, but Tenshi lives in one of the realms of heaven. I believe she lives in the realm of the Thoughtless Heaven. I think there are 9 realms of heaven or maybe some other number.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Well, Tenshi lives in Bhava-agra, which is a realm that exists inside Tenkai (a collection of separate realms existing above the Earth).

So, my question is... I want to know if Tenkai is a realm existing inside Takamagahara, or if the two are unrelated. I find it to be quite improbable, since both shares the same kanji "天" meaning "heaven"

Takamagahara = 高天原
Tenkai = 天界
Bhava-agra = 有頂天

So, would the order be: Takamagahara > Tenkai > Bhava-agra... maybe?

[Starxsword]

Yeah, I am uncertain, as I don't believe Takamagahara is mentioned much in Touhou, but could Takamagahara be Paradise? If it is, then I don't think Heaven and Paradise are the same place. http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Neo-traditionalism_of_Japan/Story

In SWR you can go to Heaven, but I don't think you can go to Paradise, that is kind of further away.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Well....... I'm sure it's not. Since I can't find the Kanji sequence for Takamagahara, nor Tenkai, nor Bhava-Agra there.

I found some of the kanjis such as  "高" (high), "天" (heaven), "原" (plain)... etc, but they are all separated from each other, instead of forming the sequence "高天原", so, the paradise mentioned in Neo-Traditionalism of Japan's Story is certainly not Takamagahara.

[TheNewGuy]

Takamagahara is a Shinto creation, there doesn't seem to be any overlap (The Kojiki was written to provide a uniquely Japanese religion to 'combat' Buddhism). It's a heaven that the Japanese gods originated from, while Tenkai and Bhava-agra are Buddhist concepts. Bhava-agra is one of the Formless Realms. Tenkai is often used to refer to Bhava-agra, but Tenkai is also used to refer to one of the Six Lower Realms.(The word Tenkai is even used to express western heavens) They are realms that people can enter into on the path of rebirth/enlightenment, I don't think that applies to Takamagahara.

[Arcorann]

To the best of my knowledge Takamagahara is officially mentioned exactly once, in relation to Keine's spellcard (Future "God's Realm", her Last Spell in IN Stage 3).  For that matter, it seems that the timeline entry is one that has since been removed from the Japanese wiki's timeline, likely due to this aforementioned lack of evidence. Thus, given that we don't have proof that it even exists in Touhou I don't think it's possible to answer any questions about Takamagahara.

[Drake]

I would likely ignore it for the same reason as Arcorann. It was only added in due to Keine's card referencing it, but aside from that there is no reference to it actually existing. There's a confusion there due to heaven apparently being formed twice, but tenkai is the current "heaven". Moreover, while I generally trust Eirin's accounts, even she was not there to know the creation of tenkai. I don't doubt the story, it just isn't confirmable.

[cuc]

This is a good topic, and well worth discussing. The only problem is, we simply don't have enough info on the different heavens at the moment. As has been said, Takamagahara has not been properly introduced yet, despite Neo-traditionalism coming very close to mentioning it.

To answer OP's question:

In real world mythology, Tsukuyomi was banished from Takamagahara by Amaterasu. Amaterasu is also obviously not residing on Lunar Capital. Therefore Takamagahara is most likely not Lunar Capital.

In recent months, I have participated in discussions about whether Lunar Capital is Tenkai. My current conclusion is that in Touhou universe, different belief systems can exist parallel to each other (and even overlap each other), all being equally true. Takamagahara is the Shinto heaven, while Tenkai is the pan-East Asian folk religion heaven (Buddhist/Taoist/Confucian). They are very different in concept, so I can't see them overlapping. Nonetheless, many real world sects must have already syncretized them, but ZUN draws his Shinto inspiration from ancient Japanese texts (especially Kojiki), not those sects.

In short, the chance of them being two separate realms is very high (if Takamagahara even exists).

BTW, the "Paradise" mentioned in Neo-traditionalism is Sukhavati, the Pure Land of the West. In real world Mahayana Buddhist lore, it's Amitabha's parallel universe where everything is better than our universe, so one can obtain Nirvana easily from there. If you recite Amitabha's name every day, you will be reborn in Sukhavati. The Tenkai described in PMiSS actually have taken some elements from Sukhavati. Are they one and the same in Touhou universe? Hard to say now.

[Starxsword]

I am unsure if Tenkai and Paradise are the same, but Bhava Agra and Paradise are most likely not the same. And since Bhava Agra is in heaven or at least one of the heavens, I assume they are different. I am basing this on what Mary or was it Renko that says Paradise is REALLY REALLY far away. Something which I doubt any of the Touhou characters can reach in the events of SWR.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

It's going to be hard for me to post here on this week because I'm busy with college, but I'll try anyway.

Yes... as Cuc mentioned, the Paradise from Neo-Traditionalism of Japan is really Sukhavati, aka: Gokuraku (極楽, "Ultimate Bliss"), because I can find the two kanjis on the japanese text.

The celestial world Tenkai (天界) is written in different Kanji than Sukhavati (極楽) so, the two places are most likely not the same. Seems like Tenkai is just a name for the celestial world/heaven in general, it's even used for it's western counterpart, as TheNewGuy mentioned. Sukhavati on other hand, seems to be a realm even higher than Tenkai, only achieved by the purest among pure beings. Hence why it's called "Ultimate Bliss". From what I can see, it's out of reach even for most of the Celestials themselves.

And no, Bhava-agra and Sukhavati are not the same. The kanji is even different. (有頂天 x 極楽) The former is just a place inside of Tenkai. To explain it better, I'll try a simple analogy. Think about Tenkai as the "country" while Bhava-agra is a "state" inside said country. As it was aforementioned, Tenkai is a collection of many realms above earth. Bhava-agra is just one among them.

Now, I can't guarantee if Tenkai is one of the realms of Samsara, but it might be. Even though according to Buddhism, the "heaven" of the six worlds is written as Tendō (天道) which shares a different kanji than Tenkai. Those two are even sepparate articles on japanese wikipedia, as it can be seen below:

Tendō 天道
Tenkai 天界

More info about the six worlds of Samsara:

1) Beings in Hell. Naraka-gati in Sanskrit. Jigokudō 地獄道 in Japanese. The lowest and worst realm, wracked by torture and characterized by aggression.
 
2) Hungry Ghosts. Preta-gati in Sanskrit. Gakidō 餓鬼道 in Japanese. The realm of hungry spirits; characterized by great craving and eternal starvation.
 
3) Animals. Tiryagyoni-gati in Sanskrit. Chikushōdō 畜生道 in Japanese. The realm of animals and livestock, characterized by stupidity and servitude.
 
4) Asura. Asura-gati in Sanskrit. Ashuradō 阿修羅道 in Japanese. The realm of anger, jealousy, and constant war; the Asura (Ashura) are demigods, semi-blessed beings; they are powerful, fierce and quarrelsome; like humans, they are partly good and partly evil.
 
5) Humans. Manusya-gati in Sanskrit. Nindō 人道 in Japanese. The human realm; beings who are both good and evil; enlightenment is within their grasp, yet most are blinded and consumed by their desires.
 
6) Deva. Deva-gati in Sanskrit. Tendō 天道 in Japanese. The realm of heavenly beings filled with pleasure; the deva hold godlike powers; some reign over celestial kingdoms; most live in delightful happiness and splendor; they live for countless ages, but even the Deva belong to the world of suffering (samsara) -- for their powers blind them to the world of suffering and fill them with pride -- and thus even the Deva grow old and die; some say that because their pleasure is greatest, so too is their misery. 

Also, while it's only mentioned through one of Keine's spell cards, I still assume Takamagahara exists in Touhou. We can't guarantee anything, but considering Amaterasu herself actually exists in Touhou (it was proven through Silent Sinner in Blue's chapter 16), then I can't think of any place for her to reside other than Takamagahara, so, I suppose keine's spell left implicit the existence of said place.

Probably it turned out a bit confusing, but I tried my best.

[cuc]

The Buddhist cosmology in Touhou is an intentionally mingled one, to reflect how East Asian cultures have heavily syncretized Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and local beliefs. It may differ greatly from "proper" Buddhist lore.

(This is in contrary to the Shinto mythology in Touhou, which while an ancient astronaut parody of real life myths, is rather careful about which texts to draw from, and far more in-depth than usually seen in pop culture.)

"Tendō" (deva-gati), and the concept of Six Realms, is more about an individual's state of being. For instance, there is no sepatate "plane of animals" or "plane of preta". If your life is defined by ignorance, you belongs to the Animal Realm; if you are obsessed with desire, you have fallen into the Preta Realm. While "Tenkai" (deva-loka) is a plane of existence in a vertical cosmology, because apparently the deva are capable of forming planes.

Regarding the difference between Sukhavati and Deva-loka, the English wikipedia entry for Buddhist cosmology has a good line for it (even though the cited source is a garish GeoCities site :V )

[In addition to the vertical cosmology, Mahayana Buddhism schools also] believe there are pure land worlds where buddhas and bodhisattvas teach sentient beings in human forms.

Sukhavati is such a pure land, a parallel universe created by Amitabha to help people gain enlightenment.

[Starxsword]

And no, Bhava-agra and Sukhavati are not the same. The kanji is even different. (有頂天 x 極楽) The former is just a place inside of Tenkai.

Hmmm, I think there are some misunderstandings here. The kanji being different has no relation whether it is the same place or not. We already used English words to substitute the difference in kanji. If you did not already know, Tenkai more or less translates to heaven's realm. The other Kanji 極楽 roughly translates to absolute paradise. These words could both possibly be referring to heaven.
The argument against it being the same realm is the one where Mary mentions that Paradise is ultra far away and since Bhava-Agra can be reached, you can sort of conclude that they aren't the same place.

Now, I can't guarantee if Tenkai is one of the realms of Samsara, but it might be. Even though according to Buddhism, the "heaven" of the six worlds is written as Tendō (天道) which shares a different kanji than Tenkai.

As cuc already mentioned, the reason why they are different is because one is talking about the realms of heaven and the other is the "way of heaven". The latter being more of a philosophy.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Well then... now I have some free time, so, let's get everything straight according to all of the info together.

Tenkai (天界) = The heaven world. Contains a collection of many sepparate realms inside of it.

Bhava-agra (有頂天) = One of the realms of Tenkai. Home of Tenshi Hinanai.

Sukhavati (極楽) = The Paradise, or pure land. A place of more prestige than Tenkai, which is very far away and unreachable for most.

Takamagahara (高天原) = The heaven that originated the Japanese Gods. Not connected to any of the previously mentioned places. May or not exist in Touhou.

Tendō (天道) = I still haven't fully got the meaning of this one. Cuc said that the concept of Samsara is more related to a person's state of Being, and there isn't a plane only for animals, or only for preta... for asura... etc. But according to the Buddhist cosmology article, there seems to be indeed a "Tiryagyoni-loka" (animal plane), a Pretaloka (Preta realm) and so on. Doesn't the hindi word "loka" translate to realm/region...? I'd like some further explanation about it.

By the way, it's quite unrelated to the topic, but I'd like to clarify something else as well.

While searching about Buddhism the other day, I read this page and this one, saying that there's no Creator God on said religion, unlike Christianity. Since the Christian God (Jehovah) probably doesn't exist in Touhou universe neither, then who created the humans of Gensokyo? Was it the Dragon? If not, how did Gensokyo's humans/the humans from touhou universe in general originate?

[Drake]

The original humans were either willingly sealed away with when the Hakurei Border was created, or were spirited away and managed to stabilize in the human village. That's pretty much it. It's very likely that they would have needed a small population of humans to be sealed away as to keep the balance of Gensokyo healthy to begin with.

Also, the Sukhavati and the planes of existence in Buddhism also do not necessarily exist in Gensokyo either.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Also, the Sukhavati and the planes of existence in Buddhism also do not necessarily exist in Gensokyo either.

Yeah, right. Maybe not in Gensokyo. But Sukhavati in fact exists somewhere in Touhou universe. Neo-Traditionalism of Japan's story mentions it the whole time. Like on the passages below for example:

「それでも極楽よりはずっと近いのよ？」
　「え？　極楽は雲の上にあるんじゃなくて？」

「地獄に比べて極楽は遥かに大きくて遠いのね」
　「同時に、地獄は極楽に比べるともの凄く身近で、現実的という事なのよ」

[Drake]

Every mention of Sukhavati is just Maribel and Renko talking about what they've heard from legend. It doesn't mean that it really exists anywhere, but an analogue might.

[Sagus]

If not, how did Gensokyo's humans/the humans from touhou universe in general originate?

Going by the Touhou timeline in the wiki, it seems that the universe's history there is pretty similar to our own (with the exception of the divine stuff in its beggining), so it seems humans just evolved naturally there, as they did here.

[cuc]

Cuc said that the concept of Samsara is more related to a person's state of Being, and there isn't a plane only for animals, or only for preta... for asura... etc. But according to the Buddhist cosmology article, there seems to be indeed a "Tiryagyoni-loka" (animal plane), a Pretaloka (Preta realm) and so on.

And I learnt something new. Sorry for not taking the time to read the article I quoted myself.

Going by the Touhou timeline in the wiki, it seems that the universe's history there is pretty similar to our own (with the exception of the divine stuff in its beggining), so it seems humans just evolved naturally there, as they did here.

Neo-traditionalism essentially tells us the scientific worldview and pre-modern worldviews are simultaneously true. Humans can be both evolved naturally and created by gods.

With that said, the Shinto mythology happens to not have an origin story for mankind - in fact, it doesn't even differentiate between gods and humans (or humans and other things) all that much. The closest thing it has is the story that explains the cycle of death and birth: Izanami vowed to kill a thousand people each day, and as a response, Izanagi vowed to give birth to a thousand people each day.

As for Buddhism, it's vitally important to understand that two of its core tenets are "everything is impermanent" and "there is no self". In principle, Buddhism has no need for gods. To over-simplify things, you can say the Hindu gods are absorbed into Buddhism as a tactics so they can preach to people "your gods are still beings trapped in Samsara; Buddha is greater than gods" and eventually "your gods are also believers of Buddhism" instead of denouncing the existence of gods outright.

As a result, Buddhism also has no need for that kind of "just so" origin story for anything. What matters to Buddhism, is how everything is fleeting phenomena in a web of cause-and-effect. The "planes" or "realms" in Buddhism are no different, a result of one's state of existence, rather than the other way around.