Imperishable Night Team Discussion

[AlexX Unlimited]

To avoid derailing other topics I figured I'd make a formal discussion topic on the subject. Since most seem to refuse to acknowledge the existance of any team not consisting of Reimu and/or Yukari, I must explain why I think the team is rather overrated.

Border Team: Yes, they have homing, decent bombs, and smaller hitbox, but these things exist in other games as well as Homing Reimu, yet apparently that doesn't stop most from declaring it a 'useless' shot type. Usually compared to Needle Reimu. Also, I really think Yukari's bomb is terrible since I find I'm never in range for it to do any damage to the boss whatsoever.

Scarlet Team: Sakuya sucks but is good enough for stages. She has decent spread and random enemies on stages die quickly to even the weakest shot types, so it doesn't matter how strong or weak she is there. Remilia, on the other hand, is one of the best shot types in the whole SERIES and can take advantage of it both in stages and against bosses. Their bombs are okay, but at least if you accidentally die with any in stock you'll get an additional one to compensate.

Neitherworld team: Stages are a breeze with Youmu if you use Myon properly. Against bosses Youmu can be used for heavy forward attack power. Optionally, you can use Yuyuko for stages and watch them become equally laughable ("Stages have enemies? I thought they just had random explosions at the top and sides of the screen."), as well as not having to worry about being directly beneath the boss for damage (its not too hard to get 2 or 3 butterflies to hit a boss, and can actually do some decent damage if you get a chance to shotgun). Additional bombs after each stage make them good for no-death runs, as well.

Magic team: Marisa has enough spread at full power to handle stages (like most humans should). Alice has an important part to the Malice cannon, not to mention her laser hits both Mokou and her wings in the Extra stage for free additional damage. Overall the team has the highest DPS in the game. Alice's bomb is terrible, however (though its credit, unlike Yukari's bomb I can at least do SOME damage to bosses whenever I'm forced to activate it).

And now... Discuss~

[Zengar Zombolt]

I'd say Remilia solo is much better than Scarlet team.

[AlexX Unlimited]

I'd say Remilia solo is much better than Scarlet team.

Probably, but we're talking entire teams here, so I have to include Sakuya.

[Sen]

It's not so much that no one likes characters outside the Border Team, it's just that they're so damn good at surviving that they're pretty much the best if you're not going for scoring. Tiny hitbox, perfect movement speed, homing powerful enough to get through stages and still take down bosses (Yukari even breaks the tradition of "homing-shot-is-lolweak"), etc.

Their bombs are also ridiculously strong, try to find a non-Hourai Jewel/Astronomical Loltombing/Mokou card that either of them can't clear in a single bomb. Reimu's deathbomb is the second-strongest in the game, losing only to Yuyuko's deathbomb point-blank. Yukari's, yes, you'll likely be too far away to do huge amounts of damage, but by the time you actually need to deathbomb, you're probably pretty late in the game and probably staying focused, which means mostly Reimu :V

It's not that the other teams suck, it's just that Border Team is so good they outshine the other teams.


Also the Reimu sprite in IN is really pretty.

[?q]

I'd say Remilia solo is much better than Scarlet team.

Having unfocused range is actually pretty useful for stages and whatever other times it's better to have a human around for.

Border Team is overrated and Yukari's bomb is terrible, but I think your best bet for arguing that you should consider other teams lies in their lower damage output.

Sadly Marisa > Alice > Magic Team.
One could also argue that Youmu ? Yuyuko > Netherworld Team.

[Helix ⑨]

Here is my view on the teams, going from best to worst:

Netherworld: The best team, they are insane for collecting time points. Youmu's speed allows unique maneuvers and her awesome forward damage can be split into 2 directions. Yuyuko has an awesome spread and allows cool tricks for example: Sometimes I unfocus the entire stage just to collect loads of time points, but when there are a lot of fairies and youmu can't kill them before they dissapear you simply tap the focus button, unleashing a wave of yuyuko's spread and clear them all at once while keep that under 80/30% human bonus thingie.

Border team: I think this is the most noob friendly team. Because A. They have homing attacks, so you won't have to bother with moving underneath enemies, which will be challenging for newbies. And B. Small hitbox + longer bomb time + not too fast speed = noob friendly^3. So I don't see why you would suggest an other team over this one to new people. Also I think there damage output is normal, ofcourse it's not 'good' or 'high' because they have homing attacks which allows them to continue damage when forward types can not hit the boss.

I must admit though that I've rarely used the other two teams.

Scarlet: Remilia is fine, but her bats are pretty much impossible to control for noobs. And personally I find her shottype to be 'good' instead of 'one of the best' probably because most bosses move all the time, you don't really need to position yourself for Mokou and fairies come from all kind of different directions (you'll have to move to reposition your new formation while you might aswell move there to shoot a forward attack). That combined with LOLSakuya equals an average team.

Magic: I find Marisa highly 'meh', her spread is decent but I don't really understand if it's supposed to be a spread or a forward type. She does moderate damage, her speed is okay, and also: MASTERSPAAAAAAAAARK. Alice is the one that ruins this team, yeah she does piercing damage, but that's totally useless on bosses. Piercing would be very useful on fairies, however alice is the phantom side so she can not hit familiars and therefor not pierce through all the fairies+familiars which is a shame (and IMO malice cannon = cheating). I also think her damage is just too low, her beam is really small compared to the damage output you would expect.

[theshirn]

Border Team: Yes, they have homing, decent bombs, and smaller hitbox, but these things exist in other games as well as Homing Reimu, yet apparently that doesn't stop most from declaring it a 'useless' shot type.

That is because Homing Reimu is almost invariably crippled with not just low but PATHETIC damage.  IN Reimu has decent, but with Yukari, even with only Ran hitting, you're still doing fairly good damage to a boss anywhere you want, and it's fairly easy to hit with both for good damage.  Homing Reimu is usually looked down upon because her utility - homing - doesn't make up for her crap damage, and the other features, such as the small hitbox and movement speed, are available to other, stronger types.  IN Reimu/Yukari, however, have more than enough damage as well as multiple other support abilities that make them very very good, and by far the most user-friendly of the teams (if not necessarily the best).

[LHCling]

I'd say Remilia solo is much better than Scarlet team.

I see this and immediately raise:

Mystia's final non-spellcard.

I mean seriously what the fuck.

Anyway... guess I'll be defending each team from an unbiased point of view?
If you don't want to read through my summary, skip to the tl;dr.
Border Team:

The Homing is great for certain stage portions. You might complain that it's too weak for destroying familiars, but I find it sufficient enough for that purpose. Well, in most cases (see above). Regarding the bombs, you shouldn't be ever using Yukari's normal bombs unless you know what you're doing. Hint: Unfocus and then bomb (normally requires a higher level of skill to pull this off in an instant though). Now this is the interesting part.

Let's consider a newbie playing. They'll obviously be better off playing with the Border Team because they're easy to use, have a long deathbomb window, and a deathbomb makes you swap to Reimu and bomb (meaning that you get the one that completely obliterates most bosses); just overall best survivability. They'll now have the mindset "omg this is the best team evar", and never swap out again due to wanting to stay in their comfort zone (continual usage of the same team; I see a lot of you people doing this :glare:). There, the reason why most people use the Border Team.
Magic Team:

A nice "balance" of a team in certain regards. Unfortunately, the lack of a decent spread (Marisa's slightly angled shots don't even count) makes things more or less a nightmare. Both "team" auxiliary skills are useless except for scoring; and even then the High-Tier scorers scoff at the skills. Lower PoC is pretty useless as well for scorers, since they have a high enough unfocus speed to move up, wait, and move back down. Might help during the stage portions though. If you don't abuse "MAlice Cannon", then at a long distance, even Yukari outdamages Marisa and Alice individually. Only highlight is the (usually) free pass called the Master Spark (normal bomb). I've tried to use this team, and I could not work out any true benefit for the average player apart from a stronger bomb overall when unfocused. On the plus side, if you deathbomb while focused, you'll still get the better of the two bombs, but... it's probably better if you unfocus and normal bomb as I said earlier. Go figure.
Scarlet Team:

Sakuya; ultimate familiar killer, even surpassing Youmu if only because of the versatility. Other than that, Youmu can take out individual familiars at a much better rate. Sakuya's auxiliary skill is great; slows down the speed that the items fall. Remilia is pretty powerful as well. Large graze hitbox; scoring purposes only. Only problem; as soon as you unfocus, you the familiars that you planted are no longer there. Also, the bosses move around a lot, meaning that you actually have to make an effort to keep the familiars under the boss to make the most of things. Bomb retention auxiliary skill... I have mixed feelings on this. Especially considering that the bombs look pretty sub-par to me anyway. And lastly, the unfocus speed is the highest, so naturally, those who have experienced the "luxury" of the Border Team's slow focus speed (read: precision) probably won't want to swap to the Scarlet Team. This team is overall great for scoring, but certainly not that newbie friendly. Even I have trouble using this team proficiently.
Netherworld Team:

"Reverse Focus Syndrome". Much like SA!MarisaA. Again, normal bombs are the way to go. First auxiliary skill is scoring exclusive; and not even that great of a skill. The second one is pretty cool and all but you'll probably get only about 3-4 bombs out of it. Almost guaranteed to get 5 if you hate Mystia with a passion. Good nonetheless. A hard to control team (again) because you need to unfocus to get the most damage possible, else you end up stuck with a pretty low damage output; meaning that you have a greater chance to mess up and waste more resources than you should have. Great team, but harder to use in some ways.
tl;dr

• Border Team is easy to use / newbie friendly; homing, long deathbomb, powerful bombs overall, decent forward damage, etc.
• Magic Team lacks range and the only highlight is the pretty powerful unfocus normal bomb, which is pretty much the same as the Border Team's unfocus normal bomb, only that it won't go around chasing familiars
• Scarlet Team is a great scoring team, but has a high unfocus speed, meaning that it isn't so newbie friendly
• Netherworld Team has "Reverse Focus Syndrome", and bombs good enough that you probably shouldn't deathbomb

Cut by various people: Reading through.

[AlexX Unlimited]

It's not so much that no one likes characters outside the Border Team, it's just that they're so damn good at surviving that they're pretty much the best if you're not going for scoring. Tiny hitbox, perfect movement speed, homing powerful enough to get through stages and still take down bosses (Yukari even breaks the tradition of "homing-shot-is-lolweak"), etc.

-The extra deathbomb time is rather meaningless. Most people here can deathbomb relatively reliably, so its only real benefit is to newbies.
-Tiny hitbox is hardly that big a deal. People complaining that "Marisa's/Sakuya's hitbox is too large" when using one of them in ESoD and PCB are promptly informed that that's a pretty weak excuse for losing.
-Perfect movement speed my rear end. Focused Yukari feels like I'm moving around in molassas and Reimu doesn't feel fast enough for unfocused movement.
-Yukari doesn't do as much damage as Remilia, Shotgunning Yuyuko, or Malice Cannon.

Their bombs are also ridiculously strong, try to find a non-Hourai Jewel/Astronomical Loltombing/Mokou card that either of them can't clear in a single bomb.

Find a card not immune to bombs that can't be cleared in a single bomb with anyone not named Alice. Sakuya and Remilia's are on the weaker end, but even they do enough damage that you won't have to worry too strongly about bullets if you time them right.

Reimu's deathbomb is the second-strongest in the game, losing only to Yuyuko's deathbomb point-blank.

Reimu also has to be point blank to get the most out of her deathbomb, though because of above that's not that big a deal.

Yukari's, yes, you'll likely be too far away to do huge amounts of damage, but by the time you actually need to deathbomb, you're probably pretty late in the game and probably staying focused, which means mostly Reimu :V

Again, almost every bomb that doesn't belong to Alice is also good enough to take out anything giving you problems. It has its overkill factor, but then again, so does the Master Spark.

It's not that the other teams suck, it's just that Border Team is so good they outshine the other teams.

If that were the case then why does everyone always tell me that all the other teams are useless and IN has no decent alternatives to the 'good' team?

That is because Homing Reimu is almost invariably crippled with not just low but PATHETIC damage.

People tend to act like she does absolutely no damage at all, if not being flat-out unusable. I've seen Extra clears of every game using Homing Reimu (including the dreaded Reimu/Suika combo in SA), so she clearly does enough damage to get by, even if its the bare minimum.

[Esoterica]

Powerful bombs, tiny hitbox, amazing damage output considering it's a homing team...there isn't really anything left to say after what Baity said.

But for the record, I usually use Yuyuko or Alice. :V

[AlexX Unlimited]

Powerful bomb,

Fixed. Only Reimu's is good.

tiny hitbox, amazing damage output considering it's a homing team...

See above post.

[Seian Verian]

Border Team has homing without utterly sucky power, small hitbox, low movement speed... Not to mention they trivialize Xu Fu's Dimension on Extra for some reason I still don't understand <_<; Why are they they only ones that are immune to bullets spawning on top of them?

However, personally, I love Youmu solo. She can do perfectly fine against stages due to Myon, and she just rips through familiars and really everything, and she's just awesome~ Not Netherworld Team however, I need to be able to do awesome damage while focused x:

[LHCling]

Why are they they only ones that are immune to bullets spawning on top of them?

small hitbox

>_>

[AlexX Unlimited]

Not to mention they trivialize Xu Fu's Dimension on Extra for some reason I still don't understand <_<; Why are they they only ones that are immune to bullets spawning on top of them?

That can be done with all teams as long as you go to the bottom and tap up once. I did it with Neitherworld team and I've seen it done with Scarlet team, you just have to move to the side any time red cards spawn since those move upwards (which you have to do anyways to stream the aimed shots).

[Seian Verian]

>_>

<_< It doesn't exactly seem like that one pixel would be enough to avoid it... Then again, I might be remembering things wrong and they AREN'T right at the center of those amulets...

[AlexX Unlimited]

Finally read your post in its entirety Baity, and my only real comment is to this:

There, the reason why most people use the Border Team.

I can understand why people USE the Border team, my whole issue is with the fact everyone here keeps insisting that they are the ONLY team worth using.

[LHCling]

I can understand why people USE the Border team, my whole issue is why everyone here keeps insisting that they are the ONLY team worth using.

Probably this:

They'll now have the mindset "omg this is the best team evar", and never swap out again due to wanting to stay in their comfort zone (continual usage of the same team; I see a lot of you people doing this :glare:).

Biased opinions and such.

[Esoterica]

Fixed. Only Reimu's is good.

Just because you can't use Yukari's bomb doesn't mean I can't~

[theshirn]

I can understand why people USE the Border team, my whole issue is with the fact everyone here keeps insisting that they are the ONLY team worth using.

In which case you're misreading pretty much everything in this topic.  I don't think anyone will say that they are the only team worth using; many people will say they're the best, and as far as ease of use goes they're correct.  The other teams require substantial adjustments to the standard Touhou playing style as I see it (a lot of messing around with focus), and they sure as hell aren't for everyone.  DOESN'T MEAN THEY SUCK.

[AlexX Unlimited]

In which case you're misreading pretty much everything in this topic.  I don't think anyone will say that they are the only team worth using; many people will say they're the best, and as far as ease of use goes they're correct.  The other teams require substantial adjustments to the standard Touhou playing style as I see it (a lot of messing around with focus), and they sure as hell aren't for everyone.  DOESN'T MEAN THEY SUCK.

You don't seem to be paying attention. I'm not talking about the stuff said in THIS topic...

I'd use [a different IN team] if it weren't for the fact that I think everyone else is completely useless in my eyes.

Might be important to note that PCB, unlike IN, actually have decent alternatives to the "broken" character.

I'm talking about stuff like this that keeps popping up in OTHER topics, not to mention that when people continuously push me to use 'broken' shot types, the Border Team is the one they tell me to use for IN.

[Esoterica]

I know I mentioned the damage being above average already, but I figured I'd just throw this out there for further emphasis: Yukari and Reimu with all shots hitting each do more damage than Marisa.

And they're homing types.

[AlexX Unlimited]

I know I mentioned the damage being above average already, but I figured I'd just throw this out there for further emphasis: Yukari and Reimu with all shots hitting each do more damage than Marisa.

And they're homing types.

Well, if you're using Marisa then odds are you're going to be using the Malice Cannon, since aside from challenge runs that's the main draw to using the Magic Team.

[Esoterica]

Well, if you're using Marisa then odds are you're going to be using the Malice Cannon, since aside from challenge runs that's the main draw to using the Magic Team.

Have you tried going through hard/lunatic with the constant focusing and unfocusing that requires?  Personally, I'd take precise movement and time orbs over haphazard speed and distracting blue and red flashes at the cost of a bit of damage any day.

[theshirn]

Well, if you're using Marisa then odds are you're going to be using the Malice Cannon, since aside from challenge runs that's the main draw to using the Magic Team.

You know...that's a really cruddy outlook for ever using them.  I have to abuse a glitch in the game just to make them usable?  (The sad part is that the answer is largely yes; Alice is horrid - Mokou aside - and Marisa's not much better.)

[Esoterica]

(The sad part is that the answer is largely yes; Alice is horrid)

I'm not going to pretend Alice is amazing, but she's not as terrible as most claim.  She's the strongest laser type in the series (barring LLS MarisA), and her spread's no worse than PCB MarisaB, and not even all that much smaller than EoSD MarisaB.

And her bomb clears all bullets off the screen, that's good enough for me.

[Azinth]

I'm not going to pretend Alice is amazing, but she's not as terrible as most claim.  She's the strongest laser type in the series (barring LLS MarisA), and her spread's no worse than PCB MarisaB, and not even all that much smaller than EoSD MarisaB.

And her bomb clears all bullets off the screen, that's good enough for me.

Wait, Alice is high-damage all of a sudden?  Last I checked she was just barely capable of out-damaging Yuyuko's far-range shot. 

And comparing Alice to other shottypes in the game is sort of useless since it ignores the games' individual stage layouts.  EoSD and PCB focused more medium-to-high health enemies who appeared in smaller groups and streaming patterns, while IN is about large amounts of low-health enemies appearing from both sides of the screen and killing said enemies quickly before they flood the playing field.  Just try playing IN stage 3 Lunatic with Alice sometime; you need to be utterly familiar with every spawnpoint and kill the enemies in the exact right order to keep from getting swarmed, whereas the Border and Ghost teams could replicate the exact same thing by staying in the bottom of the screen and tapping to the side every once in a while.

Oh yeah, and the Ghost team is basically the awesomest shot type ever.  Seriously.

[Helepolis]

People who think Reimu and Yukari are useless as a team are clueless. I have nothing to add as everything is already said above. Besides, don't forget you need Reimu solo hard/lunatic clear to unlock a Last word. Better start using them :V

Kekkai shoujo, do not look down on them.

[theshirn]

Nobody's saying they suck.  TC's just a bit cheesed that people say they're the ONLY shottype worth using.

[The Greatest Dog]

Somehow or another, I actually find a normal Alice bomb to do quite a bit of damage during spellcards.


Anyway, I'm biased towards the Ghost Team, actually. Border Team just doesn't seem to be fast enough at killing anything when you're not directly in front, and Youmu should be able to outclass Yukari if you can stay unfocused for a bit.

[Helepolis]

I am actually quite confident with Border, Scarlet and Ghost team except for Magic team. I just cannot control the laser effectively. Forgive me Alisu =(