REVIVAL OF MAFIA: Game Thread (DAY 2)

[the old guy]

This seems oddly specific and seems to indicate that one of the lurkers is scum.

##Vote: The Old Guy

If i WAS a scum, i wouldn't say "IM LYNCHING YOU CAUSE IM BORED", i would have been smarter than that, thats too suspicious. I'm town.

And the lurking thing is just me being lazy.

[PX]

See its your second point of yours that I can't make heads or tails about. How is it scummy. Why is it scummy. Why would scum do it? Why wouldn't town do it? And the fact that you keep emphasizing it without explaining it.

[PX]

Also forcing a no Lynch on a mafia member would be the quickest way to throw a game. That is not a defense on your quick hammer.

[PX]

Meanwhile back to your second point, we now have proof that there was a scummy wagon. Namely mine. And that leads to you and Windy Kitsune. So there is a legit reason to suspect you guys unlike your point on me

[PX]

Another thing of note is Serela's posts and mindset coming into the final hours. Like Conq noted Serela wasn't being his usual caps lock panic self until pointed out, which would mean he was reasonably sure that the outcome of the day wouldn't be a negative one towards his faction. This means he had reason to believe he wouldn't be lynched that day. I doubt BT or Conq would go full on bus right away so that points to those off the wagon.

[Raikaria]

Meanwhile back to your second point, we now have proof that there was a scummy wagon. Namely mine. And that leads to you and Windy Kitsune. So there is a legit reason to suspect you guys unlike your point on me

Except the wagon was started by me and Serela joined it because of Not Me Over Me.

Me making the wagon is not inherently scummy.

[Raikaria]

Also I'll just note that I fully expect to get lynched today regardless of what happens.

Which gives the mafia what they want but also probobly gives the cop his sanity at least because I'm 90% sure the cop copped me if he had any sense after Serela flipped town.

I'm just going to do my best to point out who's probobly the scum on my wagon as I go down. Then maybe people will listen once I flip Vanillia.

[Raikaria]

'After Serela flipped town'

What. Why am I being so dumb.

[Conqueror]

And all of a sudden my PX case makes me scum when you were fine with it D1?

Yes, because Serela flipped scum and that most likely makes PX town. More importantly, it's not the case on PX which I think makes you scum. It's how you handled the Serela wagon, repeatedly telling us how you agreed about the points on the Serela wagon while starting a new wagon in the last 24 hours with half the game absent. That would be weird from anyone and I think it's very out of character for you as well. You're headstrong, never afraid to just vote who you think the scum is, and more importantly, you're not an appeaser. So why did you keep emphasizing that you thought the Serela wagon was also okay as well? The only reason I can think of is that you were trying to explain your behavior in the case Serela flipped. Town you wouldn't have been so focused on justifying why you voted PX over Serela. You'd be focused on PX full stop. Tell me if I'm wrong here (I know you will, but am I really wrong?)

There were two reasons why I pushed PX over Serela despite being fine with a Serela lynch:

1: I thought PX was worse. Admittedly; PX's way of playing always makes me think he's scummy.
2: We could just have run up Serela and talked about nothing else for 24 hours but more talking means more to go off D2 to lynch someone else.

1. If that's the case, why didn't you take that into account? I always take that into account while reading PX - it's the main reason I was mostly neutral with him but could still support a lynch on him. 2. We could also just run up serela while talking about other people, nothing stops people from talking about people they're not voting for

Seems a little odd to be talking about the number of scum when it was never specified how many scum there are.

I actually wanted to bring that up at some point and ask how many scum people thought there were but I figured it wasn't that helpful until we got some flips going. Right now I'm assuming there are two, but three is possible given BP.

Especially now that he's contradicting himself and misrepping me [Said he had no issues with PX case. Claims he'd be fine if I'd say 'I think PX was scummier than Serela' when I said this REPEATEDLY] while starting the easy town lynch.

Nope, not contradicting myself or misrepping you and you're not reading what I said. Actually, you're misrepping me:

Honestly if he had just voted PX because he thought PX was scummier I would have been 100% fine with it but this reeks of overexplaining how he toootally agrees with the Serela case but he just wants to run up PX first. And he repeated it multiple times! No shame in being wrong but this just looks like he was trying to get away with hedging his bets.

Need an example of the distinction? See WindyKitsune's vote on PX. It's not well reasoned out at all, but he didn't make repeated excuses about why he didn't want to vote for Serela despite thinking Serela was preeeety scummy. But you did.

[Conqueror]

I didn't have to turn up at endday to provide the hammer. If I was scum I could have easily just not been around for deadline and forced a no lynch due to the lurkers.

I knew this would come up. Alternatively, you didn't want the lurkers to pop in and hammer a Serela vote out of nowhere (we had at least one of them show up by the end of he day) and then you'd look really bad. Or, Serela would get lynched at another point in time and then you'd basically be confirmed mafia because you thought Serela was mafia the entire time but never voted him. Oh wait PX said this above me.

[Conqueror]

Also to address points about me being potential scum who bussed Serela - I'll admit I mostly just sat on Serela all day and I wouldn't say I was one of the main people who drove the wagon, but as scum I hate lynching my buddies so you bet I would have pushed hard on other people while poking Serela (sorta like what I'm saying you did in this game). Check out my most recent scumgame where I pushed townies all game until my buddies imploded and I then had to push them because they were the only people being looked at.

@the old guy: any other thoughts you want to share about the game?

[Conqueror]

Also I'll just note that I fully expect to get lynched today regardless of what happens.

Also, I really fucking hate this defeated bullshit attitude. Whether it comes from town giving up or scum faking it.
If you're scum just go ahead and lie down and die (and I won't let you get away like I let Bardiche get away with it when he tried to pull this). But if you're town, then bloody fight for your life. I've been on the receiving end of wagons as town because of pushes I made on counterwagons to scum, multiple times in fact. But you know what I did? I fought tooth and nail and managed to change the flow of the conversation and sometimes even got my scumspect lynched instead. I convinced people who suspected me that I was town by showing them who the real scum was. So if you're town here, show us who the best alternative is. Your current vote uses a mod note indicating one of the lurkers is scum when it does nothing of the sort. If you think I'm scum, let's throw down.

[Raikaria]

I am fighting for my life.

But I am also accepting for the fact that I am probobly getting lynched.

If I had given up I wouldn't be posting; I wouldn't be trying to find things; I wouldn't be pushing on things like I was pushing some things you said.

[Raikaria]

And I've not voted you yet because I was pressing for info on stuff and thinking it over.

I need to actually find a counter-case on someone which I actually think is stronger than the cases on me. Day phases are 72 hours. I got time to think.

[Raikaria]

It's also the fact as I said before that lynching me actually makes some sense if we *can't* make headway on who's scum because there's a cop in the game that has unknown sanity; and I was the logical cop option.

Although seriously; I'm like 80% sure the scum is a lurker from what has been posted by the GM and the fact no-one really helped Serela at all; even long before the hammer. And it's hard to make a case on people with no content.

Especially when there's three of them.

[Conqueror]

Day phases are 48 hours.

There's no guarantee of a cop or that they copped you so we shouldn't be using that line of reasoning in the first place.

I can buy scum being a lurker - it would explain why Serela seemed like he gave up. They would have to have been so busy that they couldn't make an ounce of effort to save Serela though, or they just plain don't care.

[Bardiche]

VOTECOUNT
Raikaria (3): Conqueror, Old Guy, BT
Old Guy (1): Raikaria
Bardiche (∞): Everyone else, you dicks.

Not even a day's gone by and you're already looking to kill each other. You have one and a half day or so to consolidate on a lynch.

With 8 votes in play, you need 5 to lynch.

[Conqueror]

@mod Raikaria is voting Old Guy and BT is voting Raikaria

[Schezo]

I'm too ATE'd by WindyKitsue to get a legitamite opinion.  I think Conq has something with him if Raikaria doesn't flip mafia.  His whole "directing the possible cop then build a case on that" just reads as a fish.  Probably 3 mafia. 

##Vote: Raikaria

I'm also down to lynch the old guy for not playing.  It reads like this, "I'm holier than thou and don't have to denigrate myself with anything more than a bit of lazy play so calm down you townies." scum line

[Raikaria]

And that's the thing. Lynching me is the lazy play which Serela wanted you to do by buddying me D1.

Oh yeah the role list isn't guaranteed. So lynching me might not even help a cop.

Can't help but notice Conq being a lot more proactive on my mislynch than the Serela lynch. Bear that in mind when I flip. Also; Conq scum would explain Serela 'giving up' since Conq was voting Serela since RVS and never unvoted.

But right now I don't feel like there's enough that I didn't point out at the start of the day to make a solid case that isn't based around me being town; knowledge that you guys don't have.

And aside from a potential; weak Conq case; I think the scum is one of the lurkers. I mean seriously how do you make a case on Windy; L or Old Guy when none of the three has much to analyze and it could be any of those three.

I'll try and make some sort of case or at least dump everything I think in a coherent fashion later. If I'm going to get lynched I might as well throw down everything I have for town to go off.

[Raikaria]

Short infodump on all players. I'll probobly go deeper on stuff later but I want to get this out seeing as I'm not far from being hammered.

1. That Old Guy - Lurker. Only content is a non-explained jump on an easy wagon on a townie. [Current one]. Could easily be scum

2. WindyKitsune - Lurking. I guess it's a negative being involved with the PX wagon. That's why I'm getting strung up now. I think less likly scum than the other lurkers.

3. Raikaria - Me. I'm town.

4. Schezo - Started the Serela lynch; so is pretty much cleartown.

5. Conqueror - I'll probobly have to talk more about this later; but I think of all the active players he's most likely scum.

6. Dormio - Is it fair to call Dormio a lurker this game? Still; what little he's posted seems town at a glance.

7. PX - As much as PX's style of playing mafia triggers every scum sense I have; it's probobly unlikely at this point that PX is Serela's scumbuddy.

8. Serela - Flipped Scum

9. L - Lurker. Could easily be scum and has literally no content to use to make a case.

10. BT - Early adopter of the Serela wagon; so is probobly town.

So; IMO; it's between Conq and the three lurkers for the scum. I make such a big point of the lurkers due to a potential slip by Bard of all people but that's more content than most of those three have posted this game so...

[Raikaria]

Also worth mentioning if I had to rank my 4 potential scumpicks it would be Old Guy > L/Windy > Conq.

[Raikaria]

Page 1: RVS nonsense. Nothing to use here.

Page 2: #31 Conq makes RVS vote on Serela. He never moves from it.

About the only thing relevant on P2. None of the lurkers posted. Conq asks a few questions and defends me.

Page 3: Here's where things pick up since Schezo has just revealed his whole gambit thing.

#67 and 68 are Conq's first posts after the Serela gambit.

Conq states Schezo's logic is 'janky' but remains on the Serela wagon. Also he says:

I wouldn't be adverse to a wagon but I'm mostly neutral and feel there could be (?) better lurker targets. Like if I had a vig I'd shoot DaLetterEl on suspicion of tactical lurking. FPMH.

So he still dosen't even think Serela is scum yet is riding the wagon.

===

Also there's my vote on PX in #68 where I state...

What's worse than jumping on someone to be jumped on as Schezo claims instead of jumping on someone for being 'scumtastic'?

Jumping on the case that is being made by someone being scumtastic. That's what.

By Schezo's own admission he was being 'scumtastic' and PX just jumps on it without even explaining. It's worse to jump on a case that's obviously scumtastic than to jump on someone being scumtastic in my books.

I think that's a stronger thing to chase up than Serela. Although I'll be honest, but this just be personal bias from the fact that Serela was defending me. I also just got home from work and I want read over it a few times and wait a little just to see how Serela responds to this development before I make a proper judgement on it.

Oh wait look at Conq's explanation for voting me:

Honestly if he had just voted PX because he thought PX was scummier I would have been 100% fine with it but this reeks of overexplaining how he toootally agrees with the Serela case but he just wants to run up PX first. And he repeated it multiple times! No shame in being wrong but this just looks like he was trying to get away with hedging his bets.

Bolded in the last two quotes is clear evidence Conq is misrepping me hard to angle things as me being scum hedgeing my bets.

It takes until #85 for Conq to finally actually address the Serela wagon and state he thinks Serela is 'slimy'. He also tells Serela to claim.

Page 4:

Serela Claims VT and then Conq says as scum he doesn't think Serela claims VT

He still keeps voting for Serela however; despite thinking Serela's claim isn't from !ScumSerela.

I guess I'm okay with voting PX but I don't think his posts lean either way for me at the moment. So it's down to how much I really want to lynch Serela. Aren't you glad Serela?

#95 reeks of scum. Firstly; here's Conq not practicing what he preaches. He accuses me of hedging my bets and then says that earlier.

The bolded bit in particular is very fishy wording. Wouldn't seem out of place for a scum saying 'I'll lynch you if it benefits me'. Serela's response is also weird. Also note nothing about Serela being scummy; it's based on his personal desire to lynch Serela.

#106 also says the Schezo case isn't why Conq is voting Serela. So... uh... why is he voting Serela?

Also the potential slip about the number of scum.

===

Day 2:

Conq suddenly goes from passive D1 and very; very wishy-washy on the Serela lynch to hard pushing on me. A very rapid shift in attitude. Also the midrep in #138 which I pointed out in the Page 3 section.

#136/url] is a bit strange in how he specifies himself as a potential Serela partner and then writes it off. Also attempting to justify his vote after the flip. Instead of before it when it should have been done. He also happens to bring up bussing as well. In the same line.

Also his potential slip about the number of mafia in the game.

tl;dr: Conq's vote on me is based on a massive misrep. In addittion; he had some fishy interactions and reactions in regards to Serela. Indeed, his reason for voting Serela was never explained. He literally just rode the wagon.

If you think I'm scum, let's throw down.

##Vote: Conqueror

[Conqueror]

Can't help but notice Conq being a lot more proactive on my mislynch than the Serela lynch. Bear that in mind when I flip.

I'm more proactive because it's Day 2 with a scumflip (more information instead of just whiffing fumes) and 48 hour day instead of 72.

I do agree that it's difficult to differentiate the lurkers based on the content but at the same time there is a difference. If we're going solely by content I think L is the scummiest - since BT recruited him I assume he has mafia experience, but the only thing he has done this game is pop in to give an excuse. As for the other two, I'm waiting for them to respond.

[Conqueror]

Reading this case actually made me mad.

I wouldn't be adverse to a wagon but I'm mostly neutral and feel there could be (?) better lurker targets. Like if I had a vig I'd shoot DaLetterEl on suspicion of tactical lurking. FPMH.

So he still dosen't even think Serela is scum yet is riding the wagon.

What you quoted was in reference to the PX case, I literally said

Honestly, I don't think PX's vote was unreasonable at the time he made it even if he gave zero reasoning. I wouldn't be adverse to a wagon but I'm mostly neutral and feel there could be (?) better lurker targets. Like if I had a vig I'd shoot DaLetterEl on suspicion of tactical lurking. FPMH.

Bolded in the last two quotes is clear evidence Conq is misrepping me hard to angle things as me being scum hedgeing my bets.

Clear and total bullshit. I need a new post to tackle this one.

It takes until #85 for Conq to finally actually address the Serela wagon and state he thinks Serela is 'slimy'. He also tells Serela to claim.

Also bullshit, the only lynch I've shown interest for all game is Serela's wagon and a cursory glance tells you that I do have posts before the one you quoted talking about Serela being scummy.

The bolded bit in particular is very fishy wording. Wouldn't seem out of place for a scum saying 'I'll lynch you if it benefits me'. Serela's response is also weird.

It wouldn't seem out of place for scum trying to mislynch a townie. This is clearly not the case here.

Also note nothing about Serela being scummy; it's based on his personal desire to lynch Serela.

Except for everything else I've said about Serela this game

#106 also says the Schezo case isn't why Conq is voting Serela. So... uh... why is he voting Serela?

Read my posts. I didn't really care about his logic for the Schezo case being bad, this game has been chock full of bad logic. It was the way he approached it, and then the rest of the game - finding reasons votes and justifying his votes instead of finding scum.


Quote walls are pretty ugly, I haven't done one of these in a while.

[Conqueror]

Forgot to address a few things

Serela Claims VT and then Conq says as scum he doesn't think Serela claims VT

True, this is my bad but I've done the exact same thing at least one other time where I was town and Serela was scum. It's part of why I wasn't fully convinced, along with the role logic I thought through later.

He still keeps voting for Serela however; despite thinking Serela's claim isn't from !ScumSerela.

I wasn't sure. And in that case, how would staying on Serela make me more likely to be scum?


As for the misrep, here's what I said

Honestly if he had just voted PX because he thought PX was scummier I would have been 100% fine with it but this reeks of overexplaining how he toootally agrees with the Serela case but he just wants to run up PX first. And he repeated it multiple times! No shame in being wrong but this just looks like he was trying to get away with hedging his bets.

Here's what I was referring to:

What's worse than jumping on someone to be jumped on as Schezo claims instead of jumping on someone for being 'scumtastic'?

Jumping on the case that is being made by someone being scumtastic. That's what.

By Schezo's own admission he was being 'scumtastic' and PX just jumps on it without even explaining. It's worse to jump on a case that's obviously scumtastic than to jump on someone being scumtastic in my books.

I think that's a stronger thing to chase up than Serela. Although I'll be honest, but this just be personal bias from the fact that Serela was defending me. I also just got home from work and I want read over it a few times and wait a little just to see how Serela responds to this development before I make a proper judgement on it.

Yeah re-reading I'll say I basically agree with the points on Serela but I don't want to hop on the wagon just yet and think we need to chase up PX as well here.

Rev up the wagon; but don't all jump on it quite yet.

As for the "reasons" you bolded, I addressed my feelings on them yesterday and the fact that you haven't acknowledged any of the people saying that reasoning was flawed and keep pushing your logic as 100% correct makes me thing you're scum grasping at straws instead of wrong-headed town

[Conqueror]

You also keep saying "Schezo started the Serela wagon" when if anyone really started the wagon I say it's BT or at least a split between the two. Just look at how the second and third Serela votes happened. You're not even reading the game.

[Raikaria]

As for the "reasons" you bolded, I addressed my feelings on them yesterday and the fact that you haven't acknowledged any of the people saying that reasoning was flawed and keep pushing your logic as 100% correct makes me thing you're scum grasping at straws instead of wrong-headed town

My options are:

Push you - I get accused of being scum grasping at straws

Do nothing - Get accused of being town who gave up

Try to start a lurker lynch - Which dosen't give anyone any material at all to work off on D3.

Anything else dosen't make any sense whatsoever. At least pushing you can give town more interactions and such to go off when I flip town.

[Raikaria]

At least pushing on you can generate discussion [If anyone besides me and you post on the topic] which can be used by the surviving townies later to help decide who's scum.

Honestly pushing you is the most pro-town thing I can do in this position to at least have us discuss something else and make use of the time in D2. If we end up lynching someone who's not me and is actually scum; all the better.

[PX]

And the problem is you're not looking for scum then, but trying to preserve yourself.