| ~Beyond the Border~ > Genji's Battle Arena |
| [ROGUE] Okay let's play some NetHack (and DCSS!) (and Angband!) (and Slash'em!) |
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| Hello Purvis:
Another of Crawl's big issue are that you have to micromemorize everything. A lot of monsters have very specific ways to fuck you over that comes up very rarely, but you meet so many that these are going to be assured to happen. For instance, Crawl loves (used to love?) wild damage, for instance. That is, monsters that can do a very wide range of damage; so a single attack might only scratch you, or might knock out a huge portion of your HP. Thus putting you in a terrible situation due to luck. So you have to memorize how many things can do that, how badly, and so on. And every possibly side ability they have. Then you have to learn every movement pattern. You have to know exactly how crawl monsters prefer to move, and be able to predict it from round to round. This is literally the difference between yet another stupid death and a flawless victory a surprising number of times, because if you end up actually being in danger, it's already too late to do anything about it. ONCE YOU REACH THIS LEVEL, however. Then the game opens up. That's when you can start doing silly stupid stunt runs, because you have learned essentially the entire algorithm. But getting to that point is such an unfun fucking slog, and even when you are there you still won't win more than half the time unless you always play the good combos. And yeah, Crawl innately works off the assumption you will always do the most broken thing possible all the time, so you are punished more and more severely if you are not going for the most optimal things. There's a lot of genius ideas in it and honestly fun things, but they get drowned out by the learning curve and the need to always be optimal. Combine this with a mod tendency to nerf out fun things because they are good and optimally skilled players can get some abuse out of them, and you get what VIVIT was describing. Nethack is a bit more relaxed in that regard, and gives you more tools to save yourself with if things go south. It also has its micromemorizing, but it's not nearly as severe and there's more surefire ways around the Fuck You barriers. Shame Nethack's interface is not nearly as good as Crawl's. I love me some Crawl interface. |
| VIVIT:
Yeah, the interface really is a thing of beauty. I also like the game's system of records. Every weapon in your inventory remembers where you picked it up; it records when every unique spawns for you, when every unique dies, and a whole lot more. I really wish a game like NetHack, where the long-term story is more interesting, had features like those. |
| NekoNekoRex:
Yeah I'd play Nethack a lot more if it had Crawl's interface. At least Vultures was half decent, but I need not repeat what I said above. |
| VIVIT:
The new NetHack version made some pretty decent improvements to interface, actually. Remove is now partly interchangeable with Take off, and Wear with Put on. Call and #name now both bring up menus that ask you what you want to do in very clear terms. The thing I miss most from Crawl is how, after taking inventory, you can press the letter of an item to examine it, and then from that screen press the letter of a command to perform that command on the item. It's especially elegant with slot reassignment (=). |
| Raikaria:
--- Quote from: Purji Costavis on July 28, 2016, 07:49:31 PM ---Another of Crawl's big issue are that you have to micromemorize everything. A lot of monsters have very specific ways to fuck you over that comes up very rarely, but you meet so many that these are going to be assured to happen. For instance, Crawl loves (used to love?) wild damage, for instance. That is, monsters that can do a very wide range of damage; so a single attack might only scratch you, or might knock out a huge portion of your HP. Thus putting you in a terrible situation due to luck. So you have to memorize how many things can do that, how badly, and so on. And every possibly side ability they have. --- End quote --- It's kinda weird about damage in Crawl. The majority of damage is actually pretty standard in terms of how much it deals; but how AC [Armor] works makes it vary wildly; since basically it's Damage - [Random number up to AC value]. So if you have 40 AC and get hit for 40 physical damage; you can take anywhere from 0 to 40 damage, depending on your armor roll [Also heavier armor guarantees you a percentage of damage reduction minimum] Honestly; it tends to be player damage that's more random; since monsters have AC and there's more variables in player damage. Things get uglier when magic is involved because that does tend to have variable damage, usually XdY. Some lategame magic cast by monsters can get as high as 3d48 damage. Theoretically; the damage range of an Ancient Lich that casts Crystal Spear on you is 3~144 [144; by the way; is enough to oneshot pretty much any non-warrior build. And of course; since it's 3d; the odds of actually getting hit for 144 is really; really low.] Although; in most cases, it's not the raw damage you need to worry about when it comes to 'random damage'. It's things like 'Lich shows up and instantly decides it will Abyss 5 you and it passes the MR check'. But it's a Rougelike. It's part and parcel of the genre that stuff like this is going to happen. If you are not willing to take some deaths due to RNG, you're in the wrong genre. No matter how good you are at a rougelike; you are still going to lose sometimes due to a bad roll. |
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