Koakuma's Writer's Parlour ~ Have some tea and discuss fiction and writing here!

[Ghaleon]

Well, it's really funny what makes a good writer to me. I mean, as I said, I like certain authors, and I enjoy their long stories, and dislike their short ones. But even with their long ones, I enjoy it within the first chapter. There is just something about the way a good author writes something that makes it enjoyable, and that somehow doesn't seem to occur in their short stories. This is what I think I'll suck at regardless. I have a technical viewpoint on many things, I really doubt I'd grasp the ability to write something in a way so that it sounds fresh and interesting after people hear it before. I can enjoy something that I'm not good at, but writing doesn't really strike me as something to do if you're not good at it >=P.

I almost think I'm scared to try, but that doesn't quite seem to be exactly what it is preventing me from trying, but it's probably related. Not even sure why I'm telling you guys this, I'm not really hoping someone will motivate me to try. I think I was hoping that someone could relate, and tell me exactly how I feel since I'm not really sure myself, sounds pretty dumb I know.

Maybe an outline would be a good idea though, might even be fun.

[Esifex]

Hashing out the story beforehand helps a lot.

What characters will I use?
What plot will they be involved in?
Who will they interact with?
How will they resolve any dilemmas?
How many minor obstacles will they need to overcome before resolving their dilemma, and how will they resolve those?
Will, if any, antagonists be involved in the dilemma, or will they be minor characters just there to be dealt with? (Is there a Big Bad Wolf or is there a Stage 3 Boss who'll tell them where to find the Wolf?)
Do I want the story to end on a good note or a bad note?
How long do I want the story to be?

This checklist can be used to works of epic length or for short stories.

[ふねん1]

Well then, maybe someone could take a look at these notes of mine. They're in an attachment to the post (Word 2003 document). Obviously, all of these notes are subject to change to begin with, and there's not nearly enough yet for me to write the full story, so I will most definitely be editing, replacing, or deleting some of this stuff on my own. Any feedback is appreciated for what's there now, of course.

Oh, and potential spoilers are to be had, but I wonder, wouldn't that be expected for anyone reviewing someone else's story notes?

[Forte Blackadder]

Quick question: what tense should be in the fiction, past or present? I mean, right now I'm using present, but the "s" and "es" are killing me ~_~

[Nobu]

Usually fiction is in past tense, isn't it? I think that's more natural to me, at least. Though present tense might be effective too depending on what sort of feeling you're trying to evoke.

[Forte Blackadder]

Well I'm writing a mysterious story with surprises and stuffs. The fictions I've read were all in present tense (even the historical novel) so it had greatly influenced me.

[Nobu]

You can still write a mysterious story in past tense. I'd say,  do whatever you feel is a better read. Past tense makes sense to me in most cases, since a story by nature is describing something that's already happened. But present tense has the feeling that you're directly observing the events as they happen... Eh, there's a good argument to be had for either. As long as you're consistent, I think it would be alright.

[Tengukami]

I'm not really sure there's a rule on what tense to use. My latest story is written in the present tense, for example. Really depends on what you're most comfortable with for the story you want to write.

[Forte Blackadder]

Thanks, I actually wrote what I was thinking at that time so it worked for me.
And do anyone have a problem because you're writing an (assumingly) all girl fiction? Like, it goes "she tell her then she...". It's quite hard to tell who's who and I don't like repeat words too much. I tried using their title or something like "the tengu", "the miko" and their names but still.

[Iced Fairy]

It's always good policy to avoid "her," "his," and other simple pronouns in English writing.  When you do use them it's always important you make clear who the pronoun is referring to.  This is something I'm guilty of a lot as well.

Pronouns are a tool that's easy to overuse.  Consider the all female cast a helpful reminder to not do that. 

[Esifex]

'She looked up at Yuka.'
'Reimu couldn't believe her - such an outrageous story!'
'She smacked Rumia in the head. Her hand stung, but the gesture was necessary for the young youkai to learn her lesson.'

One person gets the pronouns, the other person gets either their name or a describing title. That tends to work for me.

Present tense would work best in a first-person narrative, I reckon. Never really used it myself; everything I write is almost exclusively past-tense.

[Bias Bus]

Okay.

So, I've been fiddling with Mystic Mutation for a while now and something has been bugging me the moment I got to the point where they arrived in the

Spoiler:

Jungle

. How far can someone twist Gensokyo before someone says "Okay, fuck this...this is just TOO fucking stupid" and stops reading? As in, how far can you push things with original content before Touhou isn't Touhou anymore?

Yeah I know it seems strange, but for what I'm writing it seems like I've been going farther and farther away from what's Touhou to the point where I fear readers may have just given up on trying to understand it and just dropped it like a sack of raw sewage.

[Esifex]

If someone is reading your story for it to be honest to the Touhou universe, they need to GTFO. The whole appeal behind Touhou is that Gensokyo is so open-ended and vaguely defined that it could go any which way.

The very nature of the in-universe system of logic straight out SAYS the weird and ridiculous happen on a regular basis.

If you wanna make a giant skeleton T-Rex go stomping through the Forest of Magic and chase Mystia who for some reason can't fly anymore despite being 1) a Touhou and 2) a bird until they get to the Great Gensokyian Desert, go for it.

[Forte Blackadder]

I think that's what my fic is, Erebus.
But I think Touhou doesn't have a limit, judging by the fanon you can see it's clearly as far as your imagination can handle. Of course, if you want people to keep reading you'll need to make it attractive.

Quite hard for a wall-of-text doujinshi, tho. If I could I would draw a manga...

[Tengukami]

Okay.

So, I've been fiddling with Mystic Mutation for a while now and something has been bugging me the moment I got to the point where they arrived in the

Spoiler:

Jungle

. How far can someone twist Gensokyo before someone says "Okay, fuck this...this is just TOO fucking stupid" and stops reading? As in, how far can you push things with original content before Touhou isn't Touhou anymore?

Yeah I know it seems strange, but for what I'm writing it seems like I've been going farther and farther away from what's Touhou to the point where I fear readers may have just given up on trying to understand it and just dropped it like a sack of raw sewage.

To be honest, as long as the writing's good, innovations are just fine. I've cited Serp's sci-fi piece before, and I'll point it out again. This is a great example of taking Gensokyo beyond its strictest physical aspects and into the area of using Gensokyan symbology and attitudes in a whole other world.

If you can pull it off, why not? Last week's challenge had a load of great stories, and none of them even took place in Gensokyo.

[Nobu]

Erebus: A good story is a good story. Honestly, in one way I see fanfiction as just a gimmick that draws readers who would otherwise never look at your stuff. So I wouldn't worry too much about staying faithful, as long as you're crafting a good story.

[ふねん1]

I think I can testify for this point as well. I'm planning a few things for my story that would appear radical - though I wouldn't say they completely defy logic, whatever logic Gensokyo has. I guess the thing to keep in mind is that fanfiction is by definition not supposed to be canon, so you can afford to deviate from the norm.

Of course, I hope people don't mind me still trying to make some things coincide with the current canon. I suppose one could argue that even though Gensokyo has its own logic, we, the readers, would be more familiar with the logic of the real world (as well as what we already know about Gensokyo through the games), and thus be better able to process connections of this sort. It's more of a writing strategy than anything else.

[Sen]

In regard to the present-tense vs. past-tense argument:

It can generally go either way. To me, whether or not you use either tense is dependant on how you want your story conveyed. For example, if I want to write a piece heavily dependent on emotions, feelings, sensations, etc., I'll use present-tense. It works particularly well with first-person-perspective, as it allows you to write out a character's immediate thoughts as an event is taking place. I also like to play around with formatting and syntax when writing first-person-present-tense: people's thoughts are rarely in complete and correct statements; writing in this style allows you to include or exclude certain rules of English in order to give a more genuine feel. One author I feel is particularly brilliant at this is Laurie Halse Anderson, particularly in her novel Wintergirls.

Past-tense is much better for describing events rather than emotions, I think. I generally prefer to write present-tense, since I like to throw in small details and touches that I feel draws the reader in. A past-tense story says "here's a record of what happened, for you to read afterwards." A present-tense story says "this is happening right now, feel what I feel while it's happening."

[Alfred F. Jones]

My knee-jerk tendency as a history fanatic is to write everything in the past tense. It's a holdover from reading too much historical fiction when I was younger-- the writers tended to treat events as if they had already happened, because, well, they had. The exceptions, when writers would take on the voice of their main character, were notable for that purpose; the whole appeal of that approach is so that the reader feels immersed in the tale, that this is happening to them-- directly, immediately, urgently so.

I have noticed this tendency in me, and I want to try something else, most recently in White Rose. The very end of the last update hinted at all of this, but it's still a bit of a spoiler, so seriously, don't read what's under the spoiler tags here unless you're absolutely dying to know how I'm trying to play with tenses.

Spoiler:

Koishi's just closed her Third Eye, and in so doing has closed off her thoughts and emotions. She's unable to live in any moment but the present, and no longer thinks of consequences or outcomes. So as a stylistic/symbolic choice, all scenes with her will be written in the present tense, while the rest of the story told from anyone else's perspective is in the same past tense as before.

Past and present aren't concrete at all; foolin' around with them, or even mixing them, can have pretty neat effects on the reading experience. Tinker around with 'em if you like, and see what works best for the story you're telling.

As for how far I can push my readers: White Rose is a moralistic war drama for a series that's ultimately about magical girls wearing bloomers shooting brightly coloured bullets at each other, and somehow I haven't driven off every reader in PSL. And that's not even getting into the lunacy that is Kurumi and Elly (admittedly, it makes no effort to fit into any sort of canon), the outside-world group I've created in my brain for the PoDD crew + Renko and Maribel, or the... whatever the hell Sweet Dreams is, because hell if I know :V You'd be surprised how far you can push the limits of what is a "reasonable" Touhou fic.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

On the subject of the jungle, dark-tewi.jpg

[Iced Fairy]

I'm not sure if this falls under board rules or library opinion, so I figure'd I'd ask here.  As mentioned before Graph and I and some others have been working on a Visual Novel for a bit.  We've now reached the point where we actually can start showing bits and pieces of it.  We origianlly tossed it up on the Garage, because it's a game project, but considering the VN work here and the fact that it's still a prewritten CYOA story I was wondering if this board might not be a better fit.  So I guess the question is, is the libarary it's proper home, and if so would any of you be interested in seeing it?

[Alfred F. Jones]

The Library would be perfectly suited to such an endeavour, yeah. And I would love to see it as well :3

[Dead Princess Sakana]

The Library would be perfectly suited to such an endeavour, yeah.

As she said.
And well, it's a Visual Novel, so where else should it go than here 

Hmm, a VN with Graph's graphics and IcedFairy's story-writing, that'll be great~

[Dead Princess Sakana]

Just a small official announcement:

As you may have noticed, I am now the Acolyte for PSL.
While the board lists me as 'Moderator', that is not what I am at all.

Rather, I am now the representative of PSL for all of your needs and questions.
Meaning that if you have any suggestions, questions, problems, wishes etc. that concern PSL, then talk to me.

Let us all work together to keep PSL the nice and enjoyable place it is, and maybe make it even better in the future~

[ravaens]

As occasional scribber (who never manage to finish any fanfic) I don't think knowing my writing habits will help much, but this is how I generally go around writing stories. One thing about me is that I am terrible at creativity- I have general idea of how characters could respond when faced with novel and strange events, but creating OCs and interesting events itself frustratingly eludes me. This is why I generally base my fiction around single unique concept. Usually I find I can create interesting possibilities by simply writing a cross-over (My recent idea is Hitman: Blood Money x Touhou crossover, which I still have no idea how to smooth fine details over, but there you go.) Then plot and event just comes to me as these characters scramble to respond instead of me having to make one!  :derp:

After having all of this done, I create the most basic plotline for beginning to end because it prevents me from having writer's block later on. It's just rudimentary timeline of all significant events, so I feel I still have lot of freedom and trouble filling up specific details & minor events. I generally don't post my fanfics until some chapters have been completed because I don't want to screw my future chapters over, and editting your already published fanfic is kind of mean, I think.

As for the writing phrase, I write rough draft out in pencil then copy them to the wordpad. I notice lot of spelling/grammar mistakes, and smooth out many sentences during this transfer process so this works best for me. I fail at this phrase due to my lack of preserverance and dedication though, as 20000 words is currently the longest I started writing fanfiction before giving it up.

[Iced Fairy]

Okay here's a question that occationally pops up to annoy me: When do you all end a story?

For example in Three Days Bright the ending scene in my mind... well okay the ending scene in my mind never flowed from the story itself, but I thought that having the last human leaving the cards representing the two lead characters working together was a very fitting end point.  However there was more to the story in my mind.  It just wasn't as strong as an ending.

I added Chapter 6 anyway, simply because I really needed to write something at the time.  But I still occasionally wonder if the work as a whole might not be better just ending where I had ended earlier.

So does anyone else run into that concern?  Or ever think as a reader that the writer should have just stopped somewhere?  (Or conversely wanted the writer to keep going anyway)

(This has NOOO connection to works I'm currently staring at.  I promise.  :derp:)

[Bias Bus]

I'm going to sound entirely simple and say; I end a story when there's nothing else to write on.

Simply put, once I feel I've revealed all I could to the readers, once I've told them all I could tell them about any mysteries the characters had to deal with or whatnot, then I wrap it up as best I can.

I honestly don't have much to say on this being the stories I usually write don't end. Because I never finish them :/

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

I generally overplan things, in that I have a specific starting place and a specific endpoint and a general idea of how to get from point A to point Z, so for me, the issue is not of "how do you end" but "how do you get to the end." The point is, I have a traditional beginning/middle/end planned out, and I know how the "end" will play out.

Let's take an easy example: Redefined Fantastic Object. Since this is a retalling of UFO in my alternate-universe-fic-world, I already have half the story right there. Effectively, the story ends where the game ends.

[Esifex]

My story-writing thoughtprocesses can be summed up as 'Who is doing what and will they successfully do it?'

Once I have that question answered, it's all about filling in the timeline.

Slight spoiler involving EverWander, but it's not really crucial... Sara and Acied won't make it back to Kaetir. For the sake of EverWander, they stay and adapt to life there. In this case, the end goal for them isn't 'Will they go back', but rather 'Will they survive in Gensokyo'. Trying to find a way back is just another event in the series of events on that timeline that they'll have to experience, and though they fail it, their over-all objective - survive - isn't affected by it. The entire story continues on because of it, but it's not the point behind the story.

In essence, that means that you come up with the exact end-goal you want for the story, then come up with the important plot details, the slightly-less important plot details, and then some of the minutiae between to fill in the gaps. Once you have a chain of plot points going and set in stone, you can essentially 'make up' the little stuff between the bits.

Another EverWander example - when Sara leaves the Voile after Acied shows off his new spellcard - I'd always planned for her to come across Yuka and Haru, as a way of cementing Everlasting Wanderers to the Reborn in Gensokyo storyline. I never thought of having Sara psychically blind Acied, causing him to ask Meiling for aid - which will in the future make Acied feel indebted to Meiling, another very minor plot point - and I didn't really think to use Tenshi as the bridge between Sara and Yuka.

Acied feeling like he owes one to Meiling gives me a potential tool for later that I can easily toss aside. In-story, it's a minor favor that can be repaid with something as simple as bringing her a drink while she's on guard duty sometime, or it could be that Meiling (somehow) is in need of aid that Acied is qualified to offer. I haven't spent any time thinking of a scenario that that could apply to, so that's liable not to happen.
Tenshi, on the other hand, was a necessary addition. If Sara had vandalized the sunflowers herself, Yuka would've directed her hostility towards her. There would be no way I could reasonably get Sara through that kind of situation - she wouldn't be able to beat Yuka without coming across as a Mary Sue, especially since she'd only fired her first danmaku shots the day before, and if she'd gotten herself beaten to a pulp at Yuka's hands, she'd never have a convincing reason to be on pleasant terms with Yuka - which is another potential avenue I could take the story in, and I do in fact have a minor plot arc in mind that makes use of that fact.

In my case, because of the way the gears in my head grind together, story-writing is all about plotting and planning, then filling in the cracks. The best advice I can give, though, is just try to finish a story all the way through, and then read it yourself. See what parts of your writing style you like, what you think needs improvement. See if you like the flow of your story.

Part of the reason I believe Everlasting Wanderers doesn't have a large following is because I spend too much time establishing the characters, and the first few chapters drag on. It could probably use a bit of balancing between action and exposition. See if you can find a happy medium with your works.

[DeathShot Catharsis]

Well.....Okay....I've finally started to crack down and write Touhou fanfiction, but I have one really big question: How do you write fics with huge amounts of characters?

As anybody who witnessed my epic fail fall to forum laughing stock can attest to, I use OC's in my Touhou fanfic. I use a lot of OC's.

This is where I hit the wall; I love huge casts, but how the hell do I write 50+ girls and 45+ guys into a coherent story, and still show off all their personalities and have good character development (The OC's more than the Touhou's)? The fact that my fanfic is basically the Touhou version of a sitcom only slightly alliviates the problem, as I wish to have second half be more serious and have more character development (while still remaining funny). These are things I cant skimp on; I want every Canon-OC couple to recieve the same amount of character developement.



...Well that was a mouthful.


-Chagen46