Iku Quest Sedem: A Z-Machine Adventure

[DracoOmega]

>"I believe that it does. And that it matters a great deal where this information came from, and why."
>"How far back can you remember? A couple months, perhaps, at most?"
>Pause a moment for an answer. If she doesn't offer anything helpful: "No matter."
>"Your name: 'Brocken Spectre'. You will find this name written of in newspapers dating many months before that time. Many months before you even existed. How do you think this can be?"

[Hello Purvis]

>"I believe that it does. And that it matters a great deal where this information came from, and why."
>"How far back can you remember? A couple months, perhaps, at most?"
>Pause a moment for an answer. If she doesn't offer anything helpful: "No matter."
>"Your name: 'Brocken Spectre'. You will find this name written of in newspapers dating many months before that time. Many months before you even existed. How do you think this can be?"

>"That may be so," she says. "But it doesn't matter. What I've said is still right. Trees were also around before I was, but they still have leaves that fall off whether or not I knew about it! Why can't you figure this out, I've told you half a dozen times now!"

>_

[DracoOmega]

>"The knowledge you were born with stems from the knowledge people thought you must have. The name existed before you, but it became yours because that was the name you bore in their own minds."
>"Likewise, you were born knowing that exposure was abhorrent because this is what they thought you must think. But the only reason they thought this was because they could see no other way for you to stay hidden from their searches. But they were wrong. You were hidden from them not because of your convictions but because you did not exist! The shared belief that gave you this knowledge was born entirely from a mistake!"

[Hello Purvis]

>"The knowledge you were born with stems from the knowledge people thought you must have. The name existed before you, but it became yours because that was the name you bore in their own minds."
>"Likewise, you were born knowing that exposure was abhorrent because this is what they thought you must think. But the only reason they thought this was because they could see no other way for you to stay hidden from their searches. But they were wrong. You were hidden from them not because of your convictions but because you did not exist! The shared belief that gave you this knowledge was born entirely from a mistake!"

>"You don't get it," she says. "It doesn't matter. Not a single bit of it, why are you even talking still?"

>_

[DracoOmega]

>"So even if your belief came from the knowledge of others, and it was a belief they did not share, a belief they disagreed with, and a belief which was only even conceived of out of error, you would still contend that it must be absolutely correct?"

[Hello Purvis]

>"So even if your belief came from the knowledge of others, and it was a belief they did not share, a belief they disagreed with, and a belief which was only even conceived of out of error, you would still contend that it must be absolutely correct?"

>"Now you're calling it a belief," she says. "Are these trees a belief? No. It's a fact. I keep telling you, why aren't you listening?"

>_

[DracoOmega]

>"I do not call it a belief to belittle it. A belief is not inherently true or false because of what it is. That exposure abhorrent is something you believe, is it not? If you did not believe it, I do not think we would even be having this conversation."

[Hello Purvis]

>"I do not call it a belief to belittle it. A belief is not inherently true or false because of what it is. That exposure abhorrent is something you believe, is it not? If you did not believe it, I do not think we would even be having this conversation."

>"You're still not listening," she says, scowling at you. "It wouldn't matter if I believed or not; it's true. You don't believe facts, you accept them. Beliefs can be wrong. This isn't. It's not a belief, it's a reality."

>_

[DracoOmega]

>"If it is a fact, how could it have been borne out of a falsehood?"

[Hello Purvis]

>"If it is a fact, how could it have been borne out of a falsehood?"

>"It was always there, and they didn't know it," she says. "You're still not listening to me. Whether or not I'm even here, it's reality. You can deny it and fight against it all you want. Nothing is going to change it!"

[DracoOmega]

>"I am listening to you. But the life I have led and the experiences I have shared with others shows me a different reality than the one you see. A reality where sharing with others is a virtue and a strength. No matter what you say, you cannot change the life I have lived, and the joy I have found in it. Whether your views are fact or fiction, they cannot take that away from me. It is real."

[Hello Purvis]

>"I am listening to you. But the life I have led and the experiences I have shared with others shows me a different reality than the one you see. A reality where sharing with others is a virtue and a strength. No matter what you say, you cannot change the life I have lived, and the joy I have found in it. Whether your views are fact or fiction, they cannot take that away from me. It is real."

>"And I can't understand how you can even live with it, let alone enjoy it," she says.

>_

[DracoOmega]

>"To us, fellowship is as natural and normal as eating or sleeping. I cannot imagine living otherwise. It would be a cold and empty existence."

[Hello Purvis]

>"To us, fellowship is as natural and normal as eating or sleeping. I cannot imagine living otherwise. It would be a cold and empty existence."

>"I don't think I can even try to picture it without feeling my whole being try to rip itself apart in revulsion..."

>_

[DracoOmega]

>"I have lived a great, great many more years than you, as have the others around me. Has our failure to recognize the reality that you see harmed us? Has it caused us suffering, or denied us happiness?"

>How does The Dragon's presence feel to us while it is with us?
>It can sense our heart and mind while its gaze is upon us, correct? Even at a great distance?
>Does The Dragon hear prayers and entreaties offered towards it?
>Have we known it ever to respond to them?

[Hello Purvis]

>"I have lived a great, great many more years than you, as have the others around me. Has our failure to recognize the reality that you see harmed us? Has it caused us suffering, or denied us happiness?"

>How does The Dragon's presence feel to us while it is with us?
>It can sense our heart and mind while its gaze is upon us, correct? Even at a great distance?
>Does The Dragon hear prayers and entreaties offered towards it?
>Have we known it ever to respond to them?

>"You can do terrible things and be happy," she says.
>When it is truly with you, it is like a warm blanket around and within you.
>Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Though you are reasonably sure it isn't always paying direct attention to you.

>_

[DracoOmega]

>"I will admit this is true, but what tangible harm is done to myself by sharing? Or is done to any of those I call friend, by us sharing with each other?"

>Might not paying direction attention keep it from hearing a prayer?

[Hello Purvis]

>"I will admit this is true, but what tangible harm is done to myself by sharing? Or is done to any of those I call friend, by us sharing with each other?"

>Might not paying direction attention keep it from hearing a prayer?

>"It just is," she says.
>Not to your experience. You suspect prayer tends to grab its attention.

>_

[DracoOmega]

>"Then name it. Name what the harm that is done is."

[Hello Purvis]

>"Then name it. Name what the harm that is done is."

>"It degrades you," she says. "You rip apart yourself when you do it,  in a manner of speaking. It's hard to fully express why it's bad when you refuse to even try to open your eyes that it's a truth to begin with."

>_

[DracoOmega]

>"I have not felt degraded by it. I am not seen as degraded in the eyes of those I know for doing it. I have not felt torn apart by it, metaphorically or otherwise. If anything, I have felt bolstered by it."
>"And even were it truth, I think it would bring me nothing but suffering for embracing it. Has knowing this truth brought you any happiness?"

[Hello Purvis]

>"I have not felt degraded by it. I am not seen as degraded in the eyes of those I know for doing it. I have not felt torn apart by it, metaphorically or otherwise. If anything, I have felt bolstered by it."
>"And even were it truth, I think it would bring me nothing but suffering for embracing it. Has knowing this truth brought you any happiness?"

>"Yes, it has degraded you," she says. "I can't understand how you don't see it. And of course it has, I was happiest when I was without any worry of being exposed!"

>_

[DracoOmega]

>"And when was this? When could you have been without this worry, in a land full of people? Even if not a single person were looking for a Brocken Spectre, the forest is still full of people."

[Hello Purvis]

>"And when was this? When could you have been without this worry, in a land full of people? Even if not a single person were looking for a Brocken Spectre, the forest is still full of people."

>"You're right," she says. "I've never been completely free of it. But I've been close enough."
>She frowns. "We're going in circles. Is this really all you have in your attempts to help?"

>_

[Marokuu]

Trying to sort this out in my head right now. She "believes" (massive fingerquotes there) that the true order of things is keeping everything about oneself secret... and that for some reason she is the only one who has realised this and thus is ultimately right no matter what we say (seeing as she uses the same reply no matter what) I get the feeling that she won't change her mind unless we manage to, near literally, flip Gensokyo upside down. *rubbing temples* god damnit Purvis
I feel like something similar has happened before and that nothing will change unless we drastically change our approach, arguing [beliefs of everyone in excistence] vs. [her belief] ain't gonna work  :fail:

Stealth edit: ninja'd as usual, well I'll leave this here, not like everyone knew it anyway
Not-so stealth edit: and then the 'geist condenses my entire argument into one statement

[UncertainJakutten]

Huuuuuuuuh...Okuurin has a point. We're arguing with a fundamentalist. That does change the approach a bit (usually to don't bother, but that's not an option here).

[Marokuu]

Pretty much anything we have said perviously is essentially the useless stuff that she'll just dismiss, I'm just thinking about how we could use the things that sorta kinda got her, for lack of better words, attention. Singing worked for a short bit, I'm wondering if there's other things she might enjoy that doesn't really require her to give away "stuff", just to establish a new platform for conversation *shrug*

But then I could be way off the real solution here I'm so sticking around for the endgame FAQ

[Kilgamayan]

[07:33:23] <DracoOmega> Well, hair-brained idea that risks doing even more harm than potential good, but hey; lateral thinking may be a nice change from being reasonable
[07:34:07] <DracoOmega> Sure as hell not going to try it without talking it over first, though. Remind me to explain tomorrow, if what I had in mind wasn't already obvious

> How old are we, anyway?
> When we pray, do we pray for something specific, or merely for guidance?

Though I suppose the NetHack people could answer that second question.

[UncertainJakutten]

Well, in NetHack you pray and your god is just like "Yo, you want this? No? Well, too bad, cause your getting it. And I'm your god so you're going to say thank you"

You can MANIPULATE what god does a bit by your situation, and they'll GENERALLY try to address your most immediate need, but sometimes...they don't .

[Kilgamayan]

Oh goodie, and because we're Iku we'll assume whatever The Dragon gives us is actually going to solve our problems, whether it will or if it's just something he gave to fuck with us. :V

I foresee a second plunger in our future.