[GG, Bard loses] Free! Mafia

[Shalako]

Basically, everything here feels very hindsight-ish. Also Shalako was practically nonexistent aside from the spat. I don't recall who that is he wants to lynch, I don't recall what other significant cases he made other than very specific and brief questionings he never follow up uponrelas problem is that everything he does do not follow town play optimization, I can't even perform such analysis on Shalako in the first place because there's nothing.

I'd feel bad about this but Rei is literally not reading the game in LoL.
Does Rei normally do this? I'd think he'd care more about peoples posts going into LoL then at the start of the game?
How could he have missed my claim? How could he have missed me telling Naigisa my role after I claimed?
No wonder he doesn't remember anything i've done, he's not bothering to read the game and appears to be more interested in slandering people for some strange reason.

I'd think my push to get information from Serela would make that pretty clear.

Oh really.
I think Sereal is Town since the night kill had him as his biggest Town read and I don't see what Scum Sereal has to gain from killing Raitiki. I think he was killed to set up a mislynch on Sreals. (Possibly)
I mean, Celery HAS spent the whole game with Town as his Scumreads and can't do any Scumhunting in LoL because everybody is town :/

but you've also stayed reserved on placing down a clear and concise judgement on why my sudden change of stance seems improper,

The guy who is anti-massclaim because he knows Roles are Null but did it anyways I think?

Do you mean I didn't explain Why saying you are against something in theory, but claiming because one other person is doing it is bad?

Why not tell me why you feel massclaiming will stand to advantage town, rather than just opt out with stating it's typical play in LYLO?

I already did. I told you i'm a  Role Checker remember?

whether it be to find out if I could be scum or to pass the blame and get a lynch on me. Right now, it definitely feels like the latter, as you seem to be putting pressure on me whilst covering yourself up and avoiding my questions with fluff and half-baked responses and queries.

Don't you think if I wanted to get a lynch on you I'd use one of my 3 votes?
Why wouldn't I put pressure on you?
Do you think you'd be under no suspicion in LoL?

[Kilgamayan]

Home, will catch up and do the promised rereads over the course of the evening. (Not visiting my parents tonight!)

[Patorikku]

I'd feel bad about this but Rei is literally not reading the game in LoL.
Does Rei normally do this? I'd think he'd care more about peoples posts going into LoL then at the start of the game?
How could he have missed my claim? How could he have missed me telling Naigisa my role after I claimed?
No wonder he doesn't remember anything i've done, he's not bothering to read the game and appears to be more interested in slandering people for some strange reason.

This is actually a fair point. I didn't notice right away, but Serela mentioned some points on Rei-chan's posts that give off the sense that he's not paying 100% attention, particularly the bit on pushing a vote on someone other than CF7, because a reread does show that Serela did in fact try to get a Dan wagon started. I'm not sure what's going on with Rei-chan, but I think a reread on him may be in order...

Oh really.
I think Sereal is Town since the night kill had him as his biggest Town read and I don't see what Scum Sereal has to gain from killing Raitiki. I think he was killed to set up a mislynch on Sreals. (Possibly)
I mean, Celery HAS spent the whole game with Town as his Scumreads and can't do any Scumhunting in LoL because everybody is town :/

My primary suspicion on Serela runs more off of Serela's contribution to town since D1. I can agree initially that scum!Serela doesn't have a lot to gain from NKing Raitaki, and the idea of using that NK to set up that mislynch sounds like a reasonable argument. I can also imagine that being used as reverse psychology, though. Just as reference, can you quote where Raitaki states Serela is his biggest town read, because I can't seem to find any post from him that clearly states that.
And yeah, the whole "everyone seems town" bit from Serela doesn't ring right with me. Such passive play gets town nowhere, so I'd say it's better to find something to run with or at least ask a few questions around to get the ball rolling, sort of like we did.

Do you mean I didn't explain Why saying you are against something in theory, but claiming because one other person is doing it is bad?

You keep making the point that I'm "anti-massclaim", but I feel that's more of a misread on my intention. What I was intending was to get an explanation on why Kilg felt it was wise to massclaim at that time, and I haven't necessarily played any games wherein the need arose to massclaim in LYLO, so combined with the knowledge that roles are null in this setup, I wasn't necessarily sure what Kilg intended to do with that information. But you are right, my timing was terrible, and I didn't really think it through enough. My understanding of what claiming would do at that point did align with Kilg's reasoning generally speaking.

I suppose initially, just stating I wasn't feeling the idea of massclaiming was scummy enough to you, so I would've avoided nothing even if I waited. Still, at least this back and forth provides info for town, even if it's just on us two.

I already did. I told you i'm a  Role Checker remember?

So basically you can confirm whether or not there's a fakeclaim, which I suppose would be nice in a more role-oriented setup, but again, roles are null toward alignment, so what point would there even be for scum to fakeclaim? I understand how it can prove useful - it's at least got me suspicious of Rei-chan, whose refusal to claim is now a bit more suspicious with his content quality's sudden drop - but I didn't recognize it as your reasoning as to why you felt massclaiming would prove useful.

I think this is more you running on the assumption that I'd take your claim itself as a reason to accept the massclaim as a positive.

Don't you think if I wanted to get a lynch on you I'd use one of my 3 votes?
Why wouldn't I put pressure on you?
Do you think you'd be under no suspicion in LoL?

That's a fair point: it's only logical that I'd be under as much suspicion and pressure as anyone else right now, regardless of initial reads. I'm putting too much weight on everyone's town reads on me, I guess. Doesn't help that Rei-chan's looking more suspicious, and he's been pushing me as a strong town read since the start.

Serela, do you mind explaining your reasoning as to why you feel everyone present is town?

Cut by 1

[Serela]

Serela, do you mind explaining your reasoning as to why you feel everyone present is town?

Let's see, this includes... Shalako, Kilga, Nagisa, Rei, and myself. Myself is because the mod told me I am, so, moving on to the actual ones

Shalako I went over why I think he's town in n1. I think his play after n1 has continued to look more solidly town. You're similar, but to a lesser degree; your D1 was fine (albiet a bit low post density) but as the game goes on you've gotten progressively more solid. Your play today I think is pretty awesome. I really can't see you as scum at all, I'd probably list you as the most solidly town. Kilga I guess is more middle of the line because I don't see anything that makes me go "man he's so town!" but overall he looked pretty fine; that was enough until now, but when I'm faced with 4 town reads he's probably one of the ones I really should reconsider. Thinking about it again, you and Shalako are the ones I am the least likely to reconsider. Which brings me to Rei! Now, Rei, after his d1 I never really thought about it. He was pretty universally accepted as town AFAIK and I pretty much agreed with the sentiment and didn't think about it very hard, because I am Serela and I like things that are easy  :derp: When you pointed out his weirdness today, I finally realized... wait, why have I been townclearing Rei, again? I'll need to ISO him soon (as in, before I go to sleep tonight)

[Bardiche]

1 Day and 21 Hours remain until the End of Day 3

Friendly reminder: NOT lynching significantly reduces Town's odds of winning! Lynching the wrong person ends the game in favour of Scum. Lynching Scum gives you a lot of breathing room.
No one's cast a vote! 15 votes in play mean you need 8 votes to get a lynch going.

YOU MAY ##EXTEND to receive a one-time extension to your deliberation! It'll be a 24-hour extension, unless otherwise requested.

[Serela]

wait what

when it's 3v2 how does not lynching guarantee reaching d4

[Bardiche]

Oh right, I modkilled ActionDan. Correcting my post. EDIT: Corrected my post, also allowing an extension in the event that it is deemed necessary.

[Kilgamayan]

Scumpair reread finished.

It almost certainly isn't Patorikku/Shalako, their D3 interactions have felt really real, real enough to make me forgive and (mostly) forget that Patorikku's seeming stance on Shalako wiggled weird a bit during N1/D2 and they didn't do much of anything else with each other before today.

Serela/Shalako seemed very unlikely at first with how much D1 back-and-forth they had but there's not been a lot between them since. Still don't think it's been very likely, but it's plausible, I suppose.

Patorikku/Serela is the most likely of the three options. There wasn't a lot between them before today, and even today, Patorikku's suspicion of Serela doesn't seem too energized, particularly since this was never really followed up on (and this being the next mention of Serela is really weird in light of the "I dunno if I feel as good about Serela's answers, though. I'll analyze in more detail when I get back home and don't have to post by mobile" from #216)

All that being said, I'm not completely sold on Patorikku/Serela yet, because (a) I can glean their opinions of who is town and who is scum (in Patorikku's case, at least) more easily than I can for Shalako, who has asked a lot of questions throughout the game but has few direct statements of "I think _____ is scum because _____", and (b) it seems DNA has done a bang-up job of not reading the game today, as well as possibly some revisionist history if Serela's claims are to be believed. I'm going to look into that next, before deciding who I think I would be most comfortable voting for right now.

[Kilgamayan]

Also, to respond to DNA's #232:

* I think framing my decision to not use my ability as "less discussion is good" is rather misleading. Given the pace of discussion up to that point in the game, I felt that the extra time would not have been beneficial, because there was nothing to suggest it would be utilized properly.

* I don't understand why I stand accused of "dismantl[ing] the TC function by forcing one lynch option". If you're referring to my caveat that I would only switch to someone whose lynch I would support, that was to indirectly indicate that I had no interest in voting for Raitaki, because I thought CF7 was the scummiest player in the game and Raitaki one of the towniest. It's also really bizarre to get frustrated with me for "forcing one lynch option" when I was present fairly often to change my vote if needed - it seems to me like this frustration should be directed at people that dropped votes and ran (Patorikku) or didn't even drop a vote at all (Shalako) if it's going to be directed at anyone.

* A solid scumread is going to have to wait until after I cross-check Serela's accusations of revisionist history against you (which, as stated, Imma do next), as well as your own response to same. I'm having problems distinguishing between magnitudes of scumminess because they're all roughly similar in that I have at least a few problems with everyone. (I don't know how Serela can read everyone as town right now, I'm having a tough time reading ANYONE as town!)

[Kilgamayan]

Okay, Serela absolutely did respond to DNA's case on him here, so that's another not-reading-the-game point against DNA. In regards to the Dan thing, though, Serela stated noninterest early in the day here, which could be interpreted as opposing a Dan lynch without too much word-bending. The switching to being fine with voting for Dan is here, which was late in the nomination part of the day (as Serela admitted) and thus unlikely to actually get the necessary support. (I would not have followed Serela off of CF7 anywhere unless another person hopped on CF7.)

I'd like explanations from both parties as to why these inconsistencies are present (Serela claiming he "tried to get a Dan lynch going as soon as someone brought him up and I remembered he existed" when he showed lack of interest early in the day, DNA claiming Serela didn't respond to his case when Serela did indeed respond).

[Serela]

Here's an excerpt from Rei's post #166 early D2. (I assume N2 was supposed to be N1)

Dan has always been a kinda difficult read for most of us because he takes comfort in his usual super lurky, minimal words playstyle so we pretty have to case him by his meta and intent. And running on that, I find it indicative that hes not even trying to post during N2 to be rather scummy. Usual town dan should be moderately invested in the game, but will at least try to address the biggest wagons/debates happening. I point attention to how last game town!dan at least tried to immediately address the DNA/Shalako spat and gave a list of general reads, and was making rather sensible, if brief, points during his presence. I don't like how this game Dan just go 'lol not interested in elections' and wasn't even trying to make use of the nighttalk to its fullest. So I think I would rather lynch Dan over CF7.

Yet today, despite the fact that Dan literally never posted d2 (reinforcing further the reasons for scumreading Dan here), Rei flipped opinions saying how they would have -defended- Dan against being lynched? :S Rei complains about having been forced into the CF7 lynch but he only made one post inbetween day start and the 48h mark, and there's all the previously brought up points of either misremembering things that happened or placing the blame on the forced CF7 lynch on the role people, and 180'ing about Dan and seeming to not realize without the modkill it'd still be lylo, the slot actually sort of looks like a mess. So much of a mess that it doesn't even really look like the scum kind of questionable play so much as just being confusing and weird, but, by matter of PoE that still puts Rei at the top of my lynch priority list. :T

Cut:Well, understandably, Dan had claimed PR on D1 and started participating during N1. I wanted to see what would happen from there. What ended up happening, though, was literally nothing, so it was time for chucking Dan off a cliff to become a very viable thing. :T I would have starting pushing it a bit earlier, but... since the deadline was at like 11am my time, it wasn't even discernable Dan was continuing to not exist over playing until whoops too late.

[Serela]

on the role people

is supposed to be on the WRONG people*

anyway I need to sleep

[DNAbc]

I think most of this misunderstanding over if I am deliberate in not reading the game can simply be addressed as I was truly bothered by IRL business d2, and progressively being more apathetic and played other things today because of TC shenanigans. So the links were pretty helpful for jogging my memory, thanks.

To respond to Kilg, I don't think the Serelas response as you've linked is a good example, because I have followed upon him and again emphasized why a meta defend on Serela is less valid because of his playstyle. As seen here

I don't really buy the Serela explanation for his behavior, Serela is just too characteristically random that meta arguments are pretty much useless because he can switch from capable townie to village idiot on a whim. But Serela does have his priorities, and thats play optimization. I find that throughout our games despite Serela changing the wrapper for his playstyle every game his intent is usually straightforward; abuse powerful roles, rolespec when alot of roles crop up, and generally trying to be a leading player and contributing his best as town. I don't like how he forfeits the role of TC because he thinks he's 'inadequate', which is giving up way too quickly than the Serela I know. Also, the justifying lynching everyone waffling behavior usually only crops up at lategame for town!serela, I don't think I recall many occasions which Serela does waffling this early on. And based on our game history and general deduction, I seriously want his lynch more than anything.

Which wasn't really addressed again.

Ill admit my defense of CF7 is easy to judge as me diverting attention and shifting blame because of its timing. But I digress if its indicative of scum because of its specific lack of purpose. It was me completing what I couldve posted because I initially planned to do it. I am also saying the truth when I say Dan not posting doesn't directly equate to objective scuminess and lynchability, you do not throw away every game you are in because you need to play with a degenerate player. You learn to ignore or deal with them. Emotionally, I too would love to ignore Dan's meta and lynch him here and there, but I just don't think the odds that he's scum are anymore better than anyone else and the lynch is of very low information value, so I stated I wouldve defended against that.

The LyLo regardless of the gamestate argument is something I honestly overlooked, so yeah, that's my fault there.

I am surprised myself too at how sloppy I am though this time. But I feel much better about Serela now that I can actually understand that hes paying attention to the game. Also, players interacting is very beautiful, I will try to get a reread going.

Meanwhile, I think the major questions I have on my mind are that I want Kilg to elaborate more on his scumpairs, Serela to explain what exactly is your Poe that lead to me being your priority lynch, and Shalako for his reads on people. Contrary to your belief, I did skim your claim but just doesn't find it very insightful, you are not excused from outputting content and telling us where your priorities lie just because you claimed, as claims alone aren't very indicative (moreso in this game) and I will need to know your train of thought before I can make a decision.

[Serela]

Which wasn't really addressed again.

Meanwhile, I think the major questions I have on my mind are that I want Kilg to elaborate more on his scumpairs, Serela to explain what exactly is your Poe that lead to me being your priority lynch, and Shalako for his reads on people. Contrary to your belief, I did skim your claim but just doesn't find it very insightful, you are not excused from outputting content and telling us where your priorities lie just because you claimed, as claims alone aren't very indicative (moreso in this game) and I will need to know your train of thought before I can make a decision.

I didn't address it again because your response was basically "I don't believe you" :S There's not much I can do if I present my reasoning but you don't believe me.

My PoE is mostly explaining in 243, although admittedly it's not super indepth. It's hard to explain why people feel town >> Nagisa's play today does feel quite A+ to me though, and earlier in the game the only problem was a bit low density in otherwise good posts. My Shalako townread comes from post 133 https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18766.msg1206407.html#msg1206407

Although, now that I look at it again, where was Shalako d2? :S Oh, IRL.

[Patorikku]

Patorikku/Serela is the most likely of the three options. There wasn't a lot between them before today, and even today, Patorikku's suspicion of Serela doesn't seem too energized, particularly since this was never really followed up on (and this being the next mention of Serela is really weird in light of the "I dunno if I feel as good about Serela's answers, though. I'll analyze in more detail when I get back home and don't have to post by mobile" from #216)

Guh, I have kept forgetting to get to that reread on Serela, haven't I? I suppose the best defense I have on that is similar to Rei-chan's statement on why meta reads on Serela aren't very effective, in that his/her (I keep forgetting the pronoun in use, I'm sorry :<) playstyle is rather ecstatic and tends to appear scummy at times. I did experience Serela's playstyle last game, and my last post D5 there might show just how well that worked for me. It's kind of demotivating, and I'd rather not push scum!Serela so excessively this game without some clear cut reasoning.

So in any case, I'm glad this was the post in question you brought up, Kilg, because while I can agree to some extent with Rei-chan's 228 answer, it contradicts Kilg's theory that at least a player's playstyle throughout the game can be measured to their role to determine if there's any inconsistencies due to the role. This is also the post where you state your refusal to claim and also request (perhaps jokingly?) that Shalako claim. I take it you're not in complete agreement with the statement in general, Rei-chan, but is the situation provided abnormal enough that Kilg's logic isn't sound? Would you agree with it under other circumstances, IE last game?

And back to Serela's answer to that query. Now that I'm both in front of my computer and not outside pretending to have a life, I can see a little more clearly that your answer doesn't actually explain your reasoning. Rather, you kind of state the same one-line response that Shalako provided to me in a bit more detail, if I can even call it that, because it seems devoid of a logical scum-hunting purpose. This is combined with the fact that until I mentioned Rei-chan's drop in quality, you were rather convinced everyone was town. It's your intent that I'm finding a bit difficult to pin down. Are you more concerned with finding someone whose actions are clearly scummy, rather than posing questions that could get a conversation going and finding hints of scumminess from others?

[PX]

26 Hours remain until the End of Day 3!

Friendly reminder: NOT lynching significantly reduces Town's odds of winning! Lynching the wrong person ends the game in favour of Scum. Lynching Scum gives you a lot of breathing room.
No one's cast a vote! 15 votes in play mean you need 8 votes to get a lynch going.

YOU MAY ##EXTEND to receive a one-time extension to your deliberation! It'll be a 24-hour extension, unless otherwise requested.

Bardedit: WHOOP, didn't realise PX had done it! :V

[Serela]

Are you more concerned with finding someone whose actions are clearly scummy, rather than posing questions that could get a conversation going and finding hints of scumminess from others?

My playstyle does not employ questions very often. (It happens, of course, but it's not something I actively think about doing.) I can't recall my use of questions very well (as I pay no thought to ones I make) or I'd answer that more thoroughly.

I can see a little more clearly that your answer doesn't actually explain your reasoning. Rather, you kind of state the same one-line response that Shalako provided to me in a bit more detail, if I can even call it that, because it seems devoid of a logical scum-hunting purpose.

That's because it's a question about my townreads, not my scum reads. And I'm not going to have big cases on why people are town. Partially because people looking like strong town-motivated players tends to be harder to case, and also because people don't usually bother doing that sort of thing. Although the one about why Shalako was town had a little meat to it I suppose! With you it's just that, uh... things that... are... how... people... work... uh, yeah, I don't know how to put it into words. Shut up and accept being town ;_; Moving on

This is combined with the fact that until I mentioned Rei-chan's drop in quality, you were rather convinced everyone was town.

As explained in previous posts, people posting stuff like this brought Rei back to my span of attention and I realized he wasn't the super townie captain sunflower I'd been giving him a pass as since d1, and never realized really stopped happening. Besides, would you be happier if I sat here uselessly complaining everyone is town all day? :S I mean obviously I'm going to be changing my opinion on someone to something more negative, if I read everyone as town than there is a guarantee some of my reads are wrong. Other bit of the statement around here responded to at top.

[Shalako]

Where's the Rei Iso?

[Serela]

That was post 250. Sorry if you expected more because I said iso, but without scumflips it's not as though there's any specific interactions to be looking for.

[Kilgamayan]

##Extension

The scumpairs thing was inspired by my initial kneejerk feeling here. I was hoping something would stand out as "whoa this is some scummy interaction going on", but nothing really did. (As stated earlier, Patorikku/Serela is certainly possible but it's hardly a sure thing.) If you're asking for the details of why I came to the conclusions I did, I can provide the notes I took, but they're honestly nothing revelatory, just three separate lists (one for each pair) of post numbers accompanied by what the poster did in that post in relation to the other part of the potential pair. Anyone could recreate it. If people really want to see them, though, I'll post them.

All that aside, though, since none of the three pairs stood out to me as clearly a scum team, and DNA's play today has been a notable step down from the rest of the game, I'm questioning the wisdom of spending much more time on picking through those three possibilities, since I'm substantially more open to the other three than I was in that first post. Really, I'm beginning to think I'd be best served by stopping playing Match Game and go back to simply hunting down scum on an individual basis. Pairings can come after we have a scum flip.

The more I dwell on this game, the more my mind keeps coming back to the fact that, despite all of his questions (some of which have been quite good), Shalako's been rather reluctant to actually accuse people of being scum. There was me on Day 1, I suppose, but that's been it. Even his grilling of Patorikku today hasn't come with a direct accusation (unless someone wants to argue that the last line in #207 wasn't a joke). If someone stuck a gun to my head right now and said "Vote" this is most likely where I'd land.

[Shalako]

Just as reference, can you quote where Raitaki states Serela is his biggest town read, because I can't seem to find any post from him that clearly states that.

Didn't happen, Raitaki was explaining why Dan town clearing Serela was a point against dan, not saying Serela was town cleared.
You're the only one engaged enough right now to catch this for some reason.

You keep making the point that I'm "anti-massclaim", but I feel that's more of a misread on my intention. What I was intending was to get an explanation on why Kilg felt it was wise to massclaim at that time, and I haven't necessarily played any games wherein the need arose to massclaim in LYLO, so combined with the knowledge that roles are null in this setup, I wasn't necessarily sure what Kilg intended to do with that information. But you are right, my timing was terrible, and I didn't really think it through enough.

Yea I've considered it was general "why should we claim; why is mass-claiming in LoL a thing" rather then "I'm anti-Claim but i'm getting a slight amount of peer pressure from Shalako doing it so I better claim" hence me not voting you over it.
I pressure people over things that may be incorrect simply for reads.

So basically you can confirm whether or not there's a fakeclaim, which I suppose would be nice in a more role-oriented setup, but again, roles are null toward alignment, so what point would there even be for scum to fakeclaim? I understand how it can prove useful - it's at least got me suspicious of Rei-chan, whose refusal to claim is now a bit more suspicious with his content quality's sudden drop - but I didn't recognize it as your reasoning as to why you felt massclaiming would prove useful.

We don't know if Scum have roles that they wouldn't want to lie about even if they didn't have Fakeclaims.

, the slot actually sort of looks like a mess. So much of a mess that it doesn't even really look like the scum kind of questionable play so much as just being confusing and weird,

Explain.

, and Shalako for his reads on people. Contrary to your belief, I did skim your claim but just doesn't find it very insightful, you are not excused from outputting content and telling us where your priorities lie just because you claimed, as claims alone aren't very indicative (moreso in this game) and I will need to know your train of thought before I can make a decision.

2. I am not a lynch candidate. My claim will not improve the gamestate nor provide information in any insightful context, if anything, Shalako, you are the one who should claim
Tldr I stand to lose more than potential gain if I were to claim, so I didn't, also you should claim

Rei is lying.

All that aside, though, since none of the three pairs stood out to me as clearly a scum team

How come you didn't consider any ReiX Scum pairs? I know you said Knee-Jerk but LoL isn't enough to consider Rei being Scum? What if there was a interaction with ReiX that would point to them being scum? Why aren't you afraid of missing an interaction like that?

The more I dwell on this game, the more my mind keeps coming back to the fact that, despite all of his questions (some of which have been quite good), Shalako's been rather reluctant to actually accuse people of being scum. There was me on Day 1, I suppose, but that's been it. Even his grilling of Patorikku today hasn't come with a direct accusation (unless someone wants to argue that the last line in #207 wasn't a joke). If someone stuck a gun to my head right now and said "Vote" this is most likely where I'd land.

So what the guy questioning people without flat out calling people scum is more suspicious then the guy who thinks everyone is Town and even hedges his PoE based one possible scum read?

[Serela]

Explain.

Showing a high degree of not knowing what's going on or remembering what happened in the past isn't really something that's more likely to come from scum than town; scum doesn't really want to do that either and it's not like being scum makes you less able to comprehend what's going on (It impacts your ability to scumhunt, but that's different). However, contradiction of own opinion is more concerning, and the lack of lucidity doesn't help the slot look more town, so compared to townreads I still feel pretty good about voting there right now.

(Except it's lylo, so I'm not voting yet. Even with the triple vote gimmick, if just two single votes were placed down, scum could quickhammer. Granted, it's unlikely two out of the three town will each place a vote down on the third townie, which is the only situation that could allow scum quickhammer, but still. I also don't even want to think about a situation where we try to clear or frame people based on lacks of quickhammers in certain situations ow)

[Kilgamayan]

How come you didn't consider any ReiX Scum pairs? I know you said Knee-Jerk but LoL isn't enough to consider Rei being Scum? What if there was a interaction with ReiX that would point to them being scum? Why aren't you afraid of missing an interaction like that?

I have limited time with which to work (I can't do anything more with this game while at work than follow along with immediate events), so I decided to focus on what I thought were the most likely possibilities. I think it's rather conclusion-jumpy to imply that I'd never go back and look at DNA, particularly since the end result of my re-read was to do just that, though I suppose that's has a bit of hindsight bias. Still, if you're so concerned with the idea that I was willing to spend the day ignoring the possibility of Scum DNA, then I have to say I'm rather these questions are coming now, rather than back when I first proposed the idea. Why wait for so long?

(If you are, instead, asking why I'm not going back and re-reading all of the possible DNA scumpair possibilities, then I've already provided my explanation for dropping pairhunting in favor of scumhunting.)

So what the guy questioning people without flat out calling people scum is more suspicious then the guy who thinks everyone is Town and even hedges his PoE based one possible scum read?

Yes, because I actually know what Serela thinks, even if he's having a hard time finding a scum read. Questions are good, but opinions and conclusions are better, because scum can ask questions until the cows come home with less effort than they need to use to present plausible opinions and conclusions.

[Kilgamayan]

<_< That's quite a lot of overnight posts.

There's currently less than 8 hours to go in the day. If people aren't going to post all that much right now, can two somebodies at least vote for an extension? tia

[Serela]

Extension or not, can people make clear who they're thinking of voting for? It's getting kinda to that point and there's slots who I really don't know what they're thinking. Mine would be on Rei. I'll be here up to deadline.

[Shalako]

I have limited time with which to work (I can't do anything more with this game while at work than follow along with immediate events), so I decided to focus on what I thought were the most likely possibilities. I think it's rather conclusion-jumpy to imply that I'd never go back and look at DNA, particularly since the end result of my re-read was to do just that, though I suppose that's has a bit of hindsight bias.

But...You never went back and looked at DNA (Before commenting on his latest play today and today only)
Day One you said this:

. (FWIW I don't care about much DNA anymore, nothing he's done in the actual meaningful part of the game as been very scummy.)

Could you explain it please since it's vague.

Still, if you're so concerned with the idea that I was willing to spend the day ignoring the possibility of Scum DNA, then I have to say I'm rather these questions are coming now, rather than back when I first proposed the idea. Why wait for so long?

Whys it matter?

(If you are, instead, asking why I'm not going back and re-reading all of the possible DNA scumpair possibilities, then I've already provided my explanation for dropping pairhunting in favor of scumhunting.)

Please demonstrate Dna scumpairs for me.

Yes, because I actually know what Serela thinks, even if he's having a hard time finding a scum read. Questions are good, but opinions and conclusions are better, because scum can ask questions until the cows come home with less effort than they need to use to present plausible opinions and conclusions.

You can't seriously put that much weight in the conclusions Serela has formed.
It's LoL and he can't decide on who's scum because he thinks everybody is town and he's only wanted to kill town people all game.
Furthermore if you've read the thread several times how come you haven't noticed I literally haven't called anyone scum the entire game, not just in LoL?
Voting for me not shouting about who I think is Scum and instead questioning people when if i'm wrong loses the game is just silly.
I've got plenty of opinions and conclusions I was just raised to keep my business to myself thank you very much. (I'm super paranoid so there's no point posting fantasies I discard quickly)

(It impacts your ability to scumhunt, but that's different)

Prove to me that's not what's happening to you.

Extension or not, can people make clear who they're thinking of voting for? It's getting kinda to that point and there's slots who I really don't know what they're thinking. Mine would be on Rei. I'll be here up to deadline.

Rei lied about reading my claim since he asked me twice for my claim right?
Like this is super-clear cut right? Other people see this?

[Kilgamayan]

But...You never went back and looked at DNA (Before commenting on his latest play today and today only)
Day One you said this:
Could you explain it please since it's vague.

It means that I thought his play was fine in the part of the game that I considered meaningful (i.e. everything that wasn't silly RVS shenanigans). He wasn't doing anything scummy then as far as I was concerned. His D2 also looked fine; it's only been his D3 that has looked bad, which is why it was the only thing I brought up.

Whys it matter?

I think if you were town that was genuinely concerned about me ignoring the possibility of Scum DNA, you would have said so when I first posted that I'd be looking primarily at the three people that weren't him. Bringing it up now looks less like genuine concern and more like hunting for anything you can use to make yourself look better/me look worse.

Now, I'll ask again: if you're so concerned with the idea that I was willing to spend the day ignoring the possibility of Scum DNA, why wait for so long to bring it up?

You can't seriously put that much weight in the conclusions Serela has formed.
It's LoL and he can't decide on who's scum because he thinks everybody is town and he's only wanted to kill town people all game.

Well, he certainly looks to be leaning toward DNA now, at the very least.

Regardless, it's not like reading everyone as town in LYLO is some shining beacon of towniness. But he's at least had explanations for why he was townreading everyone, and this sort of thing just happens to players from time to time (though it mostly happens to Shadowy). If he had thrown up his hands, gone "everyone is town, I can't figure this out", and just vanished, that'd be a different story entirely, but I have some idea of where he's coming from on each read.

Furthermore if you've read the thread several times how come you haven't noticed I literally haven't called anyone scum the entire game, not just in LoL?
Voting for me not shouting about who I think is Scum and instead questioning people when if i'm wrong loses the game is just silly.

I actually did notice this, as shown below:

The more I dwell on this game, the more my mind keeps coming back to the fact that, despite all of his questions (some of which have been quite good), Shalako's been rather reluctant to actually accuse people of being scum. There was me on Day 1, I suppose, but that's been it.

In fact, the lack of calling either Patorikku or DNA scum after the way you'd been pursuing them today was really what stuck out in my mind the most when I was writing that post.  (I admit I may be misremembering whether or not you actually outright accused me of being scum on Day 1, but I don't really want to go back and double-check that, because (a) it's not really all that important, and (b) trying to reread our Day 1 argument stresses me out majorly. )

Please demonstrate Dna scumpairs for me.

I've got plenty of opinions and conclusions I was just raised to keep my business to myself thank you very much.

I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Rei lied about reading my claim since he asked me twice for my claim right?
Like this is super-clear cut right? Other people see this?

I'm waiting for DNA to explain himself on that one, yes.

[Shalako]

In fact, the lack of calling either Patorikku or DNA scum after the way you'd been pursuing them today was really what stuck out in my mind the most when I was writing that post.  (I admit I may be misremembering whether or not you actually outright accused me of being scum on Day 1, but I don't really want to go back and double-check that, because (a) it's not really all that important, and (b) trying to reread our Day 1 argument stresses me out majorly. )

I didn't, I attacked your arguments, and dang it is important since you said you intend to vote me in LoL over it. Voting me over a playstyle difference over me not overtly calling people scum when I'm clearly questioning people is weak.

I didn't question why you didn't re-read DNA at the time because your pair reread ended with you saying you found nothing and I was way more focused on other things at the time.
I'm questioning it now because I wanted to see WHY you thought DNA was so townie you didn't bother reading him in LoL and it's a vague one-liner so i'm working backwards to see if your logic was for clearing DNA was sound in the first place since you mentioned DNA looking more suspicious in your eyesBeing a Notable Step Down.(Underlined here is the reason specifically for my timing).
And dang right i'm hunting for things to go off of. Everybody should be hunting for things to go off of.

You still haven't been clear at all with why his play D1-2 were fine.
It's gonna take me forever to write down all my Pair-Interactions and specific player analysis and I've got to go (12-14H) so
##Extend

[Serela]

##Extension

[DNAbc]

I am awake, let's do this.
Also, ##EXTEND

To broadly address concerns over my play or it being 'a step down', I honestly, genuinely believe its not really indicative. I mean this is probably very irresponsible coming from me, and I will readily admit that it is, because I am distracted by both irl work and FTL I find myself rapidly losing interest in the game, but the simple answer to the shalako exchange is simple, I wasn't sparing time to go through posts and missed the Shalako claim, thats why i was asking for him to claim again. The post I made after shalako pointed out that he claimed already was simply me restating my position because whether Shalako have or have not claimed before pushing me to claim only justifies that individual push, and still does not address the broad problem I have with Shalako, that is overall very uncommitted arguments that do not seriously push someone as scum. This 'Rei dun screwed up thing!' still feels very much exaggerated and the conclusion that it somehow directly leads to scum honestly feels very artificial, much along the lines of the 'Kilg is making things up! Hes scum!' thing on D1.

Also, since we are on the topic of claims, I am a VT, I have no special abilities whatsoever, I was basically crumbing that in the very first self-promotion post when I outright stated, 'unlike other swimmings, I have only one stroke and isn't as good as you guys'.

The reverse psychology thing Shalako brought up about how caring about his commitment will 'lose us the game and is silly' is honestly rather confusing too, unlike Kilga who seems to be accepting Shalako's arguments, I don't understand why its ok for Shalako to avoid that questioning altogether and instead throw us a WIFOM and tell us not to think about it. To be more specific, Serela actually does much better in this department, he was at least very honest and upfront about not being able to get a good read on anyone because 'everyone seems town', and he was readily admitting the PoE on me make little sense to begin with, which were why I decided to look at someone else instead of further tunneling my 'confscums'. Serela makes very genuine misslips I can believe that is from a town!Serela, whereas I can't really say the same about Shalako. This doesn't mean I am entirely dropping my suspicion on Serela though, but that basically I think I am more pensive on that.

But this isn't even supposed to be the main topic, because of the past 24 hours, I have basically been contemplating and ISOing the posts Kilga and Nagisa made throughout the game, and whether they made sense with player interactions as scum. It was a difficult process because the scumkill have been of paritcularly low value as Raitaki was an obvtown target.

But that doesn't really change how I think Nagisa is actually more scummy upon rereading than I initally expected. His posts are much more logically sound than Shalako's and Serela's, thats a given, but I want to point out in specific how that at their core they still are similar to theirs, meaning they usually lack commitment and are what little that do are rather sheepish and mostly pandering to popular opinion.

Notably, I find the only D2 post from Nagisa to be very lacking. There was only one post, two if you count even the one during nighttalk about Nagisa's position on CF7, and as you may observe, his opinion pummels rather rapidly from somewhat suspicious questioning to directly scumread, as seen here;

As for CF7, I'm in agreement with everyone else, and I'd like to hear why he doesn't feel like pinning down who exactly he thinks could be scum at the moment. I know there's not a lot of information to run with at this point, but I'm sure now you can offer us more insight on the individuals you've been questioning. Which of Shalako, Kilg and Rei-chan are you most suspicious of? And what about of me, Serela and Raitaki? Why do you feel you can outright exempt the possibility of Dan being scum?

Yeah, that last post from CF7 wasn't really satisfying to me. For starters, both of his cases run on the idea that what both Shalako and Raitaki posted throughout the game lacks depth, and while I can understand that read on Raitaki to an extent, I really don't buy Shalako would keep a heated argument like that going and have it be "hollow." In all fairness, your posts seemed more hollow throughout D1 to me, and this post isn't helping that case. Especially since most of us are scumreading or at least suspicious of Shalako right now, it makes it the easy vote. Not only that, but you've still failed to mention why you don't even consider Dan as a possible scum candidate.

I want to note specifically Nagisa is leaning particularly heavy on following existent players cases or majority's consent, even after addressing my inital D1 question of his posts still feeling very rehash heavy, in addition, I noticed upon a reread that most of Nagisa's arguments which are original are mostly cookie cutter scumhunt logic, I personally don't feel elaboration on why 'lurking is bad' or 'claim philosophy' are very indicative of commitment, and I have a bone to pick with that.

Finally, my biggest problem to note is how in particular laid back Nagisa is and how confident he is at upholding his townreads and lynches. I want to bring your attention in particular to last game in FTL mafia where Nagisa was waffling a million times back and forth and is basically swayed to a degree by every wall. I find his play this game to differ very greatly from his playstyle last game and is notably much more confident and super concise (to a degree his presence is somewhat lacking), and thats not really good, I find his townreads are constructed
very weakly upon generalizations instead of logic, and his votes are parked usually without much deliberation which I saw was characteristic from town!Nagisa last game. It can basically be contrasted with Kilgs playstyle, which you can note that Kilg is very bold, straightforward and lays his convictions and intents clearly on the table where they do seem to represent a gradual developing thought process as he reaches out for new information and reconsider his standings once hes being approached. Nagisas play this game is essentially defined by sheeping, and that seems to be rather characteristic scum behavior from me combined with an overall lack of presence.

cut by 2